THOUSANDS OF INSTALLATIONS MAY BE NON-COMPLIANT...ELECTRICIANS REQUIRED TO CARRY OUT REMEDIALS
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 มี.ค. 2024
- Today I want to share with you some interesting information that has come my way regarding the Zappi EV charger and the fact that it is a requirement to install a double pole Type A RCD upstream in order to carry out a compliant installation.
Hope you enjoy!!
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I’m Adam the electrician based in the south of England (Portsmouth).
I make videos that show my everyday working life installing EV charging points along with other electrical installations hopefully sharing some useful information and tips.
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Unless a fault is caused by the lack of RCD, Myenergi would be on very dodgy legal grounds refusing warranty cover.
Who is going to exercise the legal route though?
@@normanboyes4983 Small Claims doesn't cost much
Try Small claims court. Simple process. I bet they wouldn’t even respond and you’d get a result by default.
Exactly, this sounds like a very shaky excuse. A far more likely reason is they have a high number of warranty failures and know that independent installers don't have the buying power or legal department to push back. I'd be extremely reluctant to give a company more money who are obviously using spurious excuses to not back their warranty.
Mike, you and I and this nice man who is local to me... all know this, MyEnergi just went WAY down in my opinion. Unless they care to come back, HERE, in this comment section and explain their behaviour, and pay him for his time/materials... they can eff right off
Thats disgusting the Regs are not retrospective and as the Charger was fitted before the change, then at the time of fitting it was compliant
Nail on the Head on the retrospective comment. Changing regulations does not make something that was done under previous regulations wrong or even unsafe.
It’s like giving a c2 on plastic consumer unit installed back in the 17th edition. when the product was installed at the time it was compliant !. Completely agree.
C3
Only if a recall is done, it can be enforced back in time. Easee had a recall because the protection was insufficient. It was not a full recall so it's up to the owner to fit a new RCD. It has sufficient DC detection so a regular RCD is enough, not type A.
Is it because the internal rcd does not have the mechanical reset function?
Your install was complaint at the time, it's not your fault the regulation changed. I will not be revisting jobs prior to 2022 for free because of a regulation change, no chance!
The Zappi installation manual does not state that an upstream RCD is required, and state refer to local wiring regulations. So you need to push back on myenergi as they are not fulfilling their warranty obligations. Also UK wiring regulations do not mandate upstream RCD!
Have a look at wiring regulation again
@audriuskomicius1838
Which regulation?
I do not know of one mandating an RCD upstream of an EVCP.
Not entirely true, depends on the version of the installation manual in force at the time, the current manual does require an upstream RCD, this really came in to effect with Amendment 2 of the 18th edition,
The manual issued in August 2022, a 32A Circuit Breaker was to be installed, local regs should be consulted to confirm if an upstream RCD is required. The manual issued in December 2022, Staes the same. The manual issued in July 2023 States that the overcurrent device of 120% should be installed (38A so 40A) and that a RCD device may be required subject to local regs, then it references 18th Edition Section 722 which states a dual pole 30ma Type A RCD should be installed upstream and may be combined into a single device (RCBO) 40A compliant with BS EN 61009-1.
Providing you demonstrate that the installation was installed to the installation manual in date at the time then it was compliant at that time. 18th Edition states that the manufactures installation instructions should be followed. Regs cannot be retrospectively applied.
If you’ve installed it before reg update ide bill my energy for the extra works. People who have fitted loads will be suing them.
No. Bill the customer. It's customers problem as warranty is between them and MyEnergi.
@XX-ww8lh I wonder how much this will hurt sparks when the customer gets billed. It will make a lot of people question the competency of the installer, I'd absolutely be livid if I was hit with a bill because it hadn't been installed correctly. Frankly, I'd be telling you to shove your bill up your arse!
Daniel ShenSmith may be interested in this warranty issue. He is a Barrister of England and Wales and runs the Black Belt Barrister channel on which he explains the law on various everyday issues. He also owns a EV.
All credit to you for doing the remedial work.
Thank you
@@pault4793 I made a short on why I done what I done, it’s a garage board with no other load on it,
Myenergi are doing this as put it bluntly they are in questionable financial position, laying staff off, taking on sudden loans and investment etc without which likely would have gone under... the warranty costs are killing them. its a means to reduce outgoings and dodge the costs... in last several months i have had several zappis fail..
How do the Zappis fail? Is it the electronics? The power supply for the internal electronics? Problems doing the initial handshake to a charging session?
Death by a 1000 short voltage spikes?
Top man for pointing this out and also making the rest compliant at your own cost 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Thank you mate
I’m glad I saw your vid …THANKYOU for taking the time…I fitted two zappi only last week …gotta go back
No probs 👍👍
Thank you for doing this video - a great public service for consumers and your fellow sparks.
I think Zappi are doing some mental gymnastics on this. Basically they are saying they cannot be supplying a warranty replacement which is knowingly going to be installed into a circuit that is not compliant with current regulations. (We all know they cannot be applied retrospectively).
It would be better if they did not reject warranty replacement outright but make it conditional on the fitting of a compliant upstream RCD and providing Zappi a signed certificate from a registered electrician.
I am not a sparky btw.
Good on you going back to your installs and rectifying them reactively. The big issue now with replacing a main switch for R.C.D is you've made the whole installation non-compliant. There is no discrimination in the event of a fault, total power loss. Aswell as the fact the whole installation has now only 30mA of earth leakage, not each individual circuit
I made a short explaining why I done this, it’s not the house C/U, it’s a garage board with no load
You sir are a decent Electrician, not many would go around previous installs and correct the issue caused by a firm who are trying to avoid paying out........
Thank you!
Had the same thing with a commercial site 22kw Zappi - but because it was installed before we completed their training due to conflicts at Myenergi's end they wouldn't warranty it.
They also won't warranty any installations pre wiring regulations change - which themselves aren't retrospective. It was highlighted by Efixx when Sweden or Norway stated one of the chargers on the market wasn't sufficient and I know Mark Allison did a video on it shortly afterwards.
Also because BS7671 isn't retrospective Myenergi and other manufacturers leave themselves open to being taken to court under trading standards. It is a massive grey area and honestly they should probably just do the warranty and pay out for peoples original installer to swap them over to RCD protection for the circuit conductors.
Easee had a recall but not a full. Customers are highly recommended to get protection retrofitted but are not mandated by law or regulation. If the recall was full, a ban of usage, they would have had to.
😮 okie i need to comment ...i have a view that it's always good to over engineer and fitting an dual pole rcbo is a good idea.
Regardlesss the Zappi does have the 6ma protection for DC leakage I have always fitted an external rcbo and fusebox rcbos are my go too as there rcbos are dual pole as standard.
Yes you can use swa but with the new EV cable its not an Steel wire cable or covered by a metallic covering so an rcd is needed.
Appreciate you being open and honest about the zappi issue and unfortunately whis warrenty issue will catch alot of sparkies out.
Always over enginner over and above manufacturers and electrical regulations if at all possible.
Some may disagree...but if you do this then you shpuld not get caught out.
But hindsight is a great thing.
Sorry to hear on this issue have fitted hundreds of zappi chargers and always fitted rcd as an extra protection regardless if its on swa or rubber hr07 flex or ev cable.
Techincally it 240v outlet like a ceeform socket you would have for a machine or carvan but eoth thr handshake module so i dont see any difference to that and it has users that do silly things.
Rcbo if in doubt alwssy been my thoughts could save a life and always be completely covered.
Armchair none sparkies may disagree😂
Thanks for the heads up. I've got 2 from 2022, which are on MCBs. Thankfully, all my others are on RCBOs because I started fitting them as standard. Like you, I was specifically told on the training that it didn't need an up front RCD if the installation method satisfied the regs, which it did. I'm going to get them sorted to avoid any issues. 👍
If MyEnergy are adopting what appears to be a dubious position on their previous advice I would suggest that all installers vote with their feet and use one of the many alternatives instead!
I got pulled up for this from my NIC assessment.
The rcbo i needed was a commercial schneider model costing around £80.00 which helped make the decision to opt for a Zappi knowing the built in RCD would save on cost with the supply being wired in surface mounted SWA.
Very frustrating.
I'm sitting here thinking, fuck I done the same thing.
Then it hits me, there's 3 x 22kw 3phase zappis on a schneider board. Gona cost me £800 a fucking charger
Fit a three-phase RCD in an enclosure just to the side of the board, will be miles cheaperer
Fitting a zappi next week although I always put in a double pole type A rcd upstream. Great video to help out all the others guys!!
Exactly, why would you not, cover your own arse.
Few things here but firstly myenergi are bang out of order. It was discussed on twitter with them a few years ago and they eventually admitted the RCD in the product doesn’t meet bs7671. The note was then added to the manual.
So in terms of warranty claims they are taking the mick on this.
Outside of that the requirements in bs7671 have been clear so the introduction of EV charge points and RCDs to 61008 and 61009 should always be used.
I’ve had a video out around this for.a good while. So in terms of installation standards we should be fitting them and you have done this in most cases from you said in the video. Top job.
But the product standard for the zappi does not require one so using that as a get out for a warranty claim is not good.
Perhaps highlight to management at myenergi if you haven’t as yet.
Thanks for your comments appreciate that, tried calling myenergi on several occasions, can’t get through, it’s impossible
@@sotaelectrical similar experience. Jordan Brompton is usually awesome at dealing with stuff like this. I would expect she will be on it in the background.
@@electrician247 thanks mate
Fair play going round and making compliant!
Yes finally a youtubing trade in my area! Just need to find some electrical work to be done now and also a plumber, mechanic and landscape gardener.
Assume this algo is promoting this video as it popped up in my feed. You're a better man than I am as my blood would be boiling with that response from Myenergi.
Good effort mate. Glad to see you taking responsibility for sorting it all out. Many wouldn't.
My Energy owe you money, Ive never installed a zappy but have removed a few that were installed very badly. It seems now i will only install one if customer demands it. I WILL NEVER PUT A ZAPPI UP AS A FIRST OPTION. Thank you very much for this video, i cannot believe that they have used such bad faith like this. Deflecting blame on their faulty product with nonsense that will have had nothing to do with why their charge became faulty in the first place is a red line for me.
If they wanted to revise their rules they could have put a big red sticker on the replacement device saying the rules have since changed and now requires RCBO and kept you a happy customer. They have gone out of their way to imply that your work at the time was deficient to your customer. Id never trust them again
Total professionalism Sir. 👊🏻
Thank you
myenergi are having your pants down mate, demand the warranty be honoured. Unless they are prepared to put in writing that the Zappi can be damaged by the omission of an external RCD, which would be interesting considering they claim it has an RCD built in, they are just dodging a warranty claim. They dodge paying us installers for warranty work as well so it seems to be standard practice for the scoundrels these days.
Interestingly, I always fit external RCBO's myself and I have never had the Zappi 'RCD' trip under test, the external RCD always trips first. I have never fitted one to an MCB so I assume it does actually trip eventually but to try and say the warranty is void is total BS. Push back and escalate it.
I was given a cosmetically damaged BG SyncEV to try about 18 months back, I loved it, the support is first class even for third party payment apps and, touch wood, I haven't been back to one since. The Zappi has advantages but if it comes with all this BS the best thing to do is just not fit them. Good luck.
I have watched this a couple of times now, and I still don't understand why.
The current regulations do not mandate a rcd upstream of the EVCP at all, they mandate under 722.531.3.101 that a rcd is required upstream of each socket outlet or the bs 62196 connection (that's the car connection to EVCP) so a suitable rcd could be within the EVCP, or upstream of the EVCP.
If their original equipment had an integral rcd , but their new replacement does not, then it isn't anything to do with the regulations changing at all (after all with the 18th edition an rcd was required just the same, albeit with different wording)
This appears to be due to a design change of the product, so ought to be funded by the product manufacturer under their warranty.
What an I missing?
It does have an RCD but it is not recognised by BS7671, part 7 lists all of the standards, unfortunately the zappi RCD does not comply with any of these standards.
In which case it is not the installer's responsibility for costs associated with upgrading the existing installation in order for a non-compliant product to meet compliance.
That should be borne by the product manufacturer since their replacement product requires additional external electrical protection whilst their previous product did not when it was installed correctly.
Surely compliant when installed and notified and signed off
Yes but any mods would be and make the install non compliant. If it was replaced it would now have to comply.
Hi Adam. Thanks for a good video about the EVCP’s internal type A RCD. My understanding of BS7671 is that EVCP’s need to have an upstream type A 30mA which “mechanically” disconnects both live and neutral conductors. The EVCP’s internal RCD is of a digital design and therefore does not comply with BS7671. Either way, whatever the issue was with the Zappi, if not having an upstream RCD made no difference to the failure of the unit, then you have a valid warranty claim.
I had something similar with a BG SYNC EV where it just decided to stop working completely, after 1-2 weeks. When I spoke to their warranty team, they asked what was the rating of the protective device, 32 or 40amp? I said 32amp as that’s what I fitted for close protection to the 7kW unit. They came back with it should have been a 40amp due to manufacturers recommendation. I explained to them that a 40amp allows a higher overload current, so makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to the unit deciding to just pack up. I purchased a new unit from my wholesaler, fitted it, returned the faulty unit and invoiced BG for their maximum £100+VAT for my two site visits, which has now been paid👍
Thank you for your comments!! Appreciate it
If an RCD is inside the Zappi, then the only section of cable 'unprotected', is between the consumer unit and the charger box- And that cable should be in conduit or armoured.
This is not an issue. It could be proven in court that for residual current to flow, there'd have to be a break in the supply cable to the Zappi box.
Residual current flowing between the Zappi and EV would be caught by the RCD inside the Zappi. I smell BS here.
Agree 💯 with this video. We will have a similar situation. Fair play for being responsive. In 2024, for older installations, are we now expected to retro fit SPD too. Changing installation instructions then hanging out the installers isn’t great is it.
I would sever all future contact with the MyEnergi Brand. Sorry, but they wouldn't piss me about a second time. Thanks for sharing.
It sounds like MyEnergi are now trying to find a way to not cover warranties. There is a quite large failure rate for zappi's. Ive had the out the box gubbed and its not easy as an installer to get warranty stuff done
But as soon as the installation is ‘as required’ they will honour the warranty and send out a new Zappi replacement. I have seen this before. They will honour the warranty
How do the Zappis fail? Is it the electronics? The power supply for the internal electronics? Problems doing the initial handshake to a charging session?
Death by a 1000 short voltage spikes?
Just looked at when myenergi published their guidance on requiring an external RCD for UK installations, it was March 2022. That's for version 1.1, maybe there was an earlier version published. If they are taking the position that any repaired installation needs to be brought up to the latest regulations, i guess that's their prerogative, in some ways forcing installers to correct previous poor installations and generally making things safer isn't a bad thing.
If you installed before March 2022 there is a discussion to be had about who picks the cost up, I think it would be reasonable to ask the customer to cover or pay towards the extra costs. If installed after March 2022 then it wasn't installed to manufacturers instructions, I can see why there are separate documents for the UK as presumably this is mainly a UK issue.
I honestly have never seen any trade take the time to make the changes. Top man. 👍 I subscribed now.
Thank you for taking the time to comment and subscribe, really appreciated 👍👍
Good video and fair play for showing it
Thank you mate
The issue is installers blindly following these tech companies that know less than us as installers do about fixed installations.
We should never be relying on what is installed in a product to meet what is in BS 7671.
Even changing to an up front RCD won’t be compliant as EV chargers need to have their own dedicated double pole Type A RCD you can’t put them on a split load board or with an up front RCD it needs to be a double pole RCBO or a dedicated RCD unfortunately…
I just made a short explaining why I done what I done, it’s a garage board with a couple of radials - no load, an outside light and a garage light. It’s not the main house C/U and I would like to know the reg you are referring to also if you have it?
Unless the failed item (here an EVSE) could have been saved from failing by an upstream RCD, the lack of an upstream RCD did not increase the likelihood/probability for the defect to develop, and it is thus not a valid reason to reject a warranty claim.
If leakage current from one device by itself, goes high enough to trip a 30 mA RCD, the EVSE (or vehicle) is already faulty! (Maybe a second defect can be averted with an upstream RCD, in rare cases, but the first fault cannot be averted.)
Also, when the manufacturer states that they do not see an unconditional need for an upstream RCD, and therefore can work as advertised without an upstream RCD, it is not legal to reject warranty claims based on following regulations that may or may not be present where the device is installed.
If a regulation gets changed after the installation is completed, it would go against the point of the warranty, if any future change/addition is used to cancel earlier promises by the manufacturer.
Regarding warranty, is seems like a distraction (red herring?) to use regulations as an argument for voiding a warranty.
They really should honour the warranty of installations where their own guidance was followed.
If they don't, they I wouldn't be going back to them for a new charger. Plenty of other manufacturers on the market to choose from, maybe their warranty is worth more than the paper it's printed on.
RCD...is a must... !!!
Great channel sota
Thank you 👍👍
I can’t believe they have gone back on this, there are other TH-cam sparks that have installed the Zappi using an MCB when clipped direct because they were also lead to believe they could. Now the installation has just one 30ma RCD for all circuits, maybe a 2pole RCD could have been installed next to the consumer unit supplied by the MCB so the other circuits would still be on there own RCBO’s. You always do great work!! And have been let down by the manufacturer. Shame but at least you have only done 5 this way. Keep up the good work and great videos.
Thank you for your comments, I have made a short in why I done what I done with the consumer unit, watch it and hopefully all will make sense 👍👍
👍
Zappi should just change their inbuilt RCD to one that is compliant. Many picked the Zappi precisely because its got one within the device.
Your absolutely correct, I was given the same information when I went to Grimsby for the training, and at the time it was also stated in their documentation no RCD required, they changed the documentation but kept it on the down low
It was kept on the down low
For all the work and time and testing to put an rcd main switch.
Put an little board enclosure just for the charger below. For dp rcd
Personally i would have done that, saves having to do all the testing again and having the board on 1 rcd.
My Podpoint is 9 years old and still working great.
When you see all the existing current wiring in properties I sometimes wonder if those making up these regulations have nothing better to do with their time.
The failure of this device is not because an upstream RCD was omitted. Zappi are being dicks here and good on you for showing it.
Thank you sir, hope you have a good week 👍
If they were installed before amendment two 2022 my energy do not have the right legal or otherwise to say they’re not compliant and refuse to honour the warranty . My energy doesn’t have a leg to stand on. You should get in touch with the IET and get clarification in writing from them. As it is them who white the and publish the regulations BS7671. And manufacturers have no say in what does or doesn’t comply with BS7671.. or have I missed something here .
I get it, according to regs protect the circuit cable not the appliance. The appliance will have its own protection.
I wonder how long it will be before the ev charger makers refuse to pay out because an external fuseboatd has been used and the protection devices can’t have worked properly during cold weather !
Replacing RCBOs with master RCD and MCBs is a significant downgrade - wouldn't it have been better to fit an external RCD for the charger?
Yeah maybe, this is just a garage board just so you know
Fair play for putting this out, my understanding was people thought that the chargers had RCD so it met the regulations but and I could be wrong my understanding is that the RCD in the charger is an electronic RCD and the reason it falls foul is because the wiring regs require a mechanical RCD, ie the old school type like in a split load board or RCBO that is double pole... I think other comments on here saying the regulations are not retrospective, are wrong in that the argument is the 2022 regulations did not specifically change anything it just provided extra clarity where people were interpreting them wrongly so even prior to 2022 it was still required.. It does beg the question if you ask the manufacturer and you ask Napit and they both say its not needed what more can you do when clearly the regs were written in a way that caused confusion, what more can you do and 100% not your fault...
Good on you for going belts and braces on fitting RCD upstream.
Thank you mate
That’s terrible customer service off my energy it’s certainly put me off them , seems to me they’re moving the goal posts on you to avoid warranty work !! Great video as always by the way mate 👌👌👌
Thank you mate
So glad I'm an old retired approve electrician never done the regs
Based on response, thats crossed off one brand from my prospective list. Makes choosing a charger 10% easier :)
Do u still have the training course written material? That could help you in getting something back from myenergi. And indeed, what others here also have mentioned, regulation and changes are never retrospective. If Myenergi changes the rules and want them to be retrospective they have to shell out the money for the time and materials to get that fixed.
I feel you pain I had a similar question, as my energy told me it didn’t need an RCD protecting upstream as it has its own built in. I ignored and fitted one anyway as the RCD that’s in the zappi is a digital not mechanical DC current detection. I didn’t think I’d be compliant as in effect I’m fitting 2 of the RCD’s on the same circuit and neither are time delayed. But my reason for ignoring was that what’s protecting the cable supplying the Zappi.
It’s wrong really and like you said it should be clear, we are out there doing the best we can translating the regs and manufactures installation guides into an installation that’s fit for purpose. It’s also very hard to keep up with changes.
Everyone let’s not forget the Zappi does not have a Type A RCD to bsen 61009-1 it has a 6 Ma RDC DD, which is a Residual Direct current detection device.
Now you have the zappi plus many other circuits on a single rcd. Build up of ac and dc leakage, in my opinion the installation is nowvless safe and an external rcd for the zappi woukd have been a better solution.
I knew this would come up, it’s already a garage board with 1 x external socket radial, and 2 x socket radials in the garage with nothing plugged in, 1 x outside light and 1 x internal light, literally no load so I didn’t see this as a problem, if it was the house C/U then fair enough
Do a subject access request for the phone call. This would give you proof of their liability.
I literally finished the city and guilds 2921 training course at Napit yesterday and they told us we don’t need to fit an RCD as the chargers have them built-in!! Unbelievable.
That is literally insane
Looks like you didn't get the 2922 update then? 🤯 It'd be good when everyone's on the same page. Until then there's a whiff of incompetence in the air. Is a tory involved?
@@Veeger no politics please lads 🤣
No one's in trouble. The regs are part of life. Compliant at point on installation. Replacing equipment later, then bring up to current standard. Should be thought about when looking at EV running costs.
Well done . I take it that the single din rcbo does switch the neutral as many do not which means they don't comply.
Exactly
@@sotaelectrical like your kids buddy
Well done & well said! Will they stand up and say you were right at the time of fitting ?
Well clear as mud as usual. Why don't they make it clear as to what they want ...
I would have fitted an red in an enclosure under the board on that first job .
It’s already a garage board with no load on it
This is the problem when the people doing the installations have to rely on the diktat of incompetent regulation makers, why wouldn’t you install an rcd? Unless both installer and regulator have in depth knowledge of electrical theory and UNDERSTAND why you must or must not install an rcd then this is either a warranty invalidating excuse or regulation for regulations sake. If the charger is rcd protected, why would an upstream rcd protecting the cable make any difference? Are they suggesting that lack of an rcd has damaged the charger?the IET and the registration schemes are largely staffed by poorly trained and incompetent people involved in arse covering excercises to hide the fact that they dont know what they are doing and dont understand what they are regulating. A lot easier to start at 9-30 with coffee in a nice warm office than be out in the job! When they start handing down these made up on the spot regs, ask them WHY? And watch them meltdown! Electrical safety has gone through the floor since the introduction of part p, IET. Regs and the “scams”. Our consumer units never caught fire !!
So glad to be retired from the industry!
Phil
Hopefully Myenergi will see this and do the right thing. I wouldn't choose a company with such a bad communication. One lesson for all of us. Communicate in writing, not verbally on the phone. It's sad but necessary.
Anything to do with warranty on renewable products is a minefield for both the installer and the end user,because manufacturers will change the rules depending who you speak and turn on a dime to get out of a warranty claim.this is probably why a lot of companies go bust when the problems starts because of lack of aftercare from the manufacturer
I wouldn't be installing a zappi, eddi, harvi or libbi battery storage system from my energy after being treated like that!
Not got a zappy, got a podpoint, and the electrician installed an RCD. Thank goodness.
Hi, in my opinion…
If the Zappi needs to be replaced under warranty, then the new charger install needs to be compliant with current regs. If the previous Zappi was installed pre reg change and was compliant at the time, the customer should have to pay for new upstream RCD, and Myenergi provide new charger under warranty.
If the Zappi was installed post reg change, and the original installer did not fit an upstream RCD when they were meant to, then the original installer should first supply and install the upstream RCD, and then Myenergi should then provide the charger under warranty. That seems fair.
Stuff Zappi bin them off costing you money is unforgivable. They will loose customers to this. I've ignored their advise and training before and always fitted RCD Type A on chargers luckily! Makes you angry!!
What a pain in the bum! At least you only had a few and you have done the decent thing in changing. You can sleep at night knowing you have done the best job for the customer. 👍😃
Thank you 👍👍
Zappy should foot the bill for you putting it right,
At the time the charger was fitted an rcd was not required my energi should cover it under warranty if the charger was installed before the change
But it was installed before the reg change. Id contact myenergi directly and get the replacment sorted free of charge. Good job my eenergi dont do periodic imspections c1 c2 c3 all over the place.
I recently attended a myenergi zappi 2 installation training course. One question in the course test asked: "What is the recommended rating and type of protective device, on the supply to the EV charger?" The correct answer was given as a "Type B 40Amp circuit breaker". - No caveat regarding local requirements.
So they are still recommending no RCD?
We need Class Action Lawsuits in Britain for exactly this type of thing. Customers and Engineers do things correctly yet the sellers try to get out of genuine warranty claims.
It's not on.
Lawyers, are you interested, because there are a lot of us looking for lawyers to take this type of thing on.
One of the reasons that I prefer the National Electric Code in the USA, which is not retroactive.
Putting in an RCD main switch may also be non-compliant as you now have to take in earth leakage for the whole installation and that has to be less than 9mA. Well done for going back and changing though
Their zappi2 manual v1.1 says ''The zappi features an integral 30mA Type-A RCD with 6mA DC protection and therefore an external RCD is not
required.''
If this was taken to court Myenergi wouldn't have a leg to stand on, they are just saying this to get out of warranty claims. Regulations at the time of installation were followed and changes are not retrospective. There is no way an installer would be found liable for this and Myenergi is just trying it on.
Part 2 coming soon
Always use the 3 magic words with warranty claims: "small claims court"
Should never change the main switch to an RCD that will cause unwanted tripping of everything. Should of installed and RCD in it's Own enclosure covering the circuit that needs protection
I don’t agree, that is a garage consumer unit with an outside socket radial, and 2 other socket radial circuits with no load, 1 x outside light circuit and one internal light for the garage. It’s not the main consumer unit
When I read up on EV chargers and the issue of a "lost neutral" during or casing a local power outage. Because of the most common form of underground cabling sharing neutral and earth (in the UK), all 3 conductors are liable to "float" to 400V+ depending on the phases.
Normally this isn't a big deal as every thing is "same potential" and the only real concern would be where things are not the same potential. Holding only to a plugged in toaster and stepping out side might give you a shock, but who is going to do that?
Well... what happen when you park a big metal box in the drive way, which sits on rubber tyres and connect it to the mains?
What happens is, because of the lowZ galvanic connection to the N, E or L from the car, the car (if it is earthed) will float at those 400V, but, the ground you are starting on is a highZ path and will only be floating at a voltage proportional to the resistance/voltage drop from the nearest local earth to your feet. So the car might be floating at 400V and the ground only at 100V. That's a lethal 300V potential from your hand touching the car to your bare foot on your driveway.
The RCDs should still be able to detect this. The lecture I watched mentioned a 75V potential as lethal and that risk certainly eixsts.
It is EXTREMELY unlikely though. A lot of things have to happen in order for this to be possible. A grid fault causing "equal potential" across the 3 conductors would not last long before the grid would trip or notice and cut off the local transformers at the nearest switch. Then you have to have someone who has enough paint chips on their car to touch something conductively connected to Earth at the same time as wearing conductive shoes.
I believe the RCD mechanism will be found on both input to the charger and the output to the car, so that current leaking in or OUT from Earth will be detected and tripped.
The other thing they were talking about forcing in, was a full earth grid installed under the car and a local earthing from the charger to that, so that the ground under the car is same potential as the car.
Wait until they start refusing to supply replacements when they are on shared rcds. Then there will be a big problem.
Soo many installs when I’ve seen no Rcd protection upstream so be a shame that it might be a fight on inspection for remedial works
To be fair think my energi have done you over on the RCD bit. However the MCB wasn’t double pole so it wasn’t fitted correctly anyway.
Hopefully a big electrical contractor will challenge this in court. It makes sense to fit an rcd regardless as the charger may get changed for a different type in the future, ( yes not your problem but it nice to future proof thing. The rush to RCBO’s is going to come back and bit us using single poll offers no protection against PEN faults and should be banned or made go have a 100ma main switch or the like. True professional going back to these jobs and it not the customers problem.
Thank you for commenting, we shall wait and see what happens! It’s changing like the wind at the moment 👍👍
They have released a double pole rcbo for the click board. We are waiting for delivery from the wholesalers
Your first installation...
Why didn't you replace the Elucian MCB with an Elucian CU1AFDD40B/32B AFDD with L+N isolation ???
Yes more cost, but less remedial work, plus if you fitted a RCD then MCB's, you are beyond the guideline of 3 MCB's per RCD. Plus you are replacing RCBO's for multiple MCB's from one RCD - kind of a step down/backwards ?
Yes the AFDD costs £100 ~120, but factor in RCD, £15, plus multiple MCB's say £20 = £35 anyway.
The £70 or so extra for AFDD could perhaps be shared with customer who retains the RCBO protection, but added AFDD peace of mind on the EV charger protection, switching both poles to satisfy Zappi & less work for you.
Still a pain, but end result is improved protection, reckon customer would go for sharing the AFDD cost for warranty & improved protection etc...
Not a fan of AFDD on all circuits, but I'm now leaning towards AFDD L+N for high load circuits like showers and EV's on a fresh install. The rules/regulations/guidelines/recommendations are continually changing, that it seems that it pays to over-specify a little on the spec, than simply just "meet" the requirements on the day
Lucky, you only had 5 installs to return to for remedial work - top stuff sir
I simply didn’t think of the AFDD option, my bad
The one thing that gets me about the whole integral RCD of some chargers not meeting the standard of 61008 (for I believe not having a test button) is that surely these RCDs that are integral to chargers are likely to long term be more reliable. I’ve been to loads of installations where RCDs have never been tested and they no longer operate, where as I know for sure the Zappi tests it’s RCD before commencing every charge session.
I believe the standard actually allows for no test button to be present if it self tests the RCD.
An upfront RCCB isn't acceptable as it must be a dedicated RCD for the EVSE.
Yeah cheers I’m gonna change this again 🤣
This is like the Grenfell Tower situation. What they installed was compliant at the time but was found to be non-compliant with the new regulations. This caused many other tower blocks to be inspected and many failed for having cladding that was compliant at the time but is not longer complaint and now the freeholders of the buildings are telling the leaseholders they have got to pay.
I can see in the comments a number of electricians are saying the same thing, what they installed was complaint at the time and thus they are not going to make remedies for free.
Grenfell stuff was compliant but only because the testing was god awful and should never have been passed. Not a great comparison
Come on Mr Zappi, get your act together.
Where double pole protection has been an issue to fit, if there is space in the CU, I keep the mcb, cut down the busbar and fit a double pole RCD at the end fed via the original mcb. Otherwise, a small enclosure out the CU does the same job for limited cost.
On the Myenergi front, I’ve replaced so many under warranty where the original install is pretty poor, without any evidence of their ‘new’ requirements already being in place. Poor form. Shame. My favourite products to fit.
This is chargeable work in my opinion. The install was compliant at the time of installation. I wouldn’t even entertain what the manufacturer is saying.
Totally agree, but sadly doesn’t help the customer who would be left with a faulty charger myenergi are refusing to warranty (guessing he’s doing it to try and appease customers rather than myenergi themselves and can’t face the argument with them).
Terrible form from myenergi, I’d guess only a very small percentage of installers would/will go round changing all their installs off their own back as this chap has done though, and will leave customers high and dry when their chargers pack up!
Ask the folks working at Octopus on the coal face about Zappi chargers...