How to Avoid the Legal Pitfalls of a Transferrable H&K Auto Sear
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One of the particularly popular transferrable machine guns out there is the H&K auto sear. Since H&K grip and trigger assemblies are interchangeable between 9mm, 5.56mm, and 7.62x51mm guns (ie, MP5, HK33, and G3) a single registered full-auto grip assembly can allow someone to effectively have three machine guns for the price of one (albeit only one at a time). However, there are some potentially very expensive and dangerous pitfalls for someone acquiring one of these without a full understanding of the law and the technical details.
In short, an H&K upper receiver that has the ability to fit a factory full-auto grip assembly is considered a machine gun by ATF, just like an AR lower with the third pin hole drilled. If you have a registered standard factory full-auto grip, any gun it can attach to is also by definition a machine gun. Instead, the proper way to do this is to register a grip assembly that is modified to fit onto factory semiauto receivers. This sounds pedantic and strange - and it is - but it is a complex and tricky area of law and ATF rule making. If you are planning to put tens of thousands of dollars into a transferrable H&K, you really ought to have a clear understanding of these issues before you make a purchase!
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Stroking my chin with $147 in my bank account: “This is important information for me to know.”
I hate to speak truth, but you're going to have to stroke another part of your body on camera & on the internet for a long time in order to afford one of those. 😂😮🎉
🤣🤣🤣🤣 I’m with you dawg
Hey, you can get like seven Big Macs or maybe even a full tank of gas with that account balance.
Bro I got 3 dollars.
I about fell out of my chair when he said "35 to 45 thousand dollars"
The miracle of multiplying machineguns: you disassemble one machinegun and voilà you have two machineguns now.
Machine gun mitosis
Finally, a real life application of the Banach-Tarski Paradox!
Gun-Jesus saith unto them, How many machineguns have ye? go and see. And when they knew, they say, Five, and two trigger assemblies.
And he commanded them to make all sit down by companies upon the green grass.
And they sat down in ranks, by hundreds, and by fifties.
And when he had taken the five machineguns and the two lowers, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the machineguns, and gave them to his disciples to set before them; and the two trigger assemblies divided he among them all.
And they did all shoot, and were satisfied.
And they took up twelve baskets full of machineguns, and of trigger assemblies.
Go forth and multiply !
Taking off the machine gun trigger pack magically turns the upper reciever to sbr semiauto firearm. Sorcery, i say.
Schrodinger's' Machine gun, it's status depends on what benefits the ATF most.
And what benefits them most is what brings ruin to the common man. Sweet!
Also a machinegun of Theseus!
No, it doesn't have to benefit them as long as it screws a citizen (or their dog).
The ATF is legally required to rule like this, as the parts themselves are plainly either statutorily required to be the legal firearm, or not. This situation exists because the BATF is forced to rule exactly this way by the GCA. Don't blame the ATF, either blame HK or the GCA.
@TheFanatical1 Honk! Pretty sure it said shall not. Idk what that means because I have an IQ of 4, but some pretty smart folk tell me that "shall not" means "won't".
'Everybody ought to have a full-auto MP5. They're awesome!' -- my new favorite Ian quote
It's so true
It'd be a hell of a tagline for a presidential campaign run
@@RJ-wx3fh a Full-auto MP5 in every pot.
Ditto
Especially if you're in Nakatomi Plaza... "Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
1 gun = 2 machineguns
makes perfect sense
Murica
Murica…land of the TAXED AND CONTROLLED.
I wish
Welcome to America 🙃
ATF math.
"If you think you understand quantum physics, you don't."
It also applies to ATF regulations.
Or law in general.
Confused? Just remember: ATF once ruled that a shoelace is a machine gun.
To be fair: if guns were simple, Ian would have made fifty videos, he'd have finished describing all the important variations of "how guns work" ten years ago, and we wouldn't be here.
I don't think it's actually possible for the ATF to do the things that Congress has told it to do in a fully logical, consistent way. Their bosses gave them six contradictory rules to enforce, and they're stuck. They haven't exactly done the best possible job of trying, either... but they haven't done the worst they could have done.
The ATF has to make decisions about this, and there really aren't good decisions they can make. They're statutorily required to rule on what constitutes a machine-gun, or what constitutes something that could be readily converted (or convert something into) a machine gun.
Ruling which part of a gun is legally the machine gun is essentially arbitrary, but you have to do that because otherwise people will just dissassemble them and claim that no part constitutes a machine gun. The problem is that the trigger pack both isn't legally a machine gun and something that is used to otherwise convert a not-machine-gun into a machine gun. Obviously you run into some problems here because they've seemingly chosen the wrong part to consider the machine gun. I mean, they may be statutorily required to consider that part (the upper) a gun, but either way you have to make a decision about that.
Gun owners are constantly trying funny business to get around the letter of the law rather than the spirit (see the absolute nonsense coming out of various places regarding totally-not-stocked-pistols), and the ATF is then forced to issue increasingly complicated rulings on what does and does not constitute an illegal firearm. The fact that you have to modify the legal machine gun rather than the legal semi-auto upper is perfectly reasonable: if you modify the legal thing to accept a legal part (the legal part being the legal trigger pack, which is not a machine gun) you have now created a unregistered machine gun. If you modify the legal machine gun you're not doing anything wrong, and you haven't modified the legal semi-auto upper (so you can't have made a machine gun) and when they fit together you've only got one gun, and it's the lower.
Could you change all of this by thinking of the trigger pack as the legal firearm? Sure, but I'm 90% sure the definition of a receiver does realistically mean the trigger pack in this case. Yes, this is somewhat silly. Yes, they should change it for this specific example. No, that doesn't mean this is really a problem: blame HK for making a gun that doesn't play well with US law, don't blame the ATF for doing what they're required to do.
@@TheFanatical1 It's the statute that's wrong. As Ian has discussed ad nauseam via pistol braces, the notion that a federal agency should be allowed to criminalize and decriminalize constitutionally protected items at will is absurd. Particularly when being afoul of said ruling means committing a felony offense. It also leads to ridiculous things being legally deemed "machine guns" that plainly are not, like shoelaces for instance.
For some reason, "This is a gun and this is also a gun.", reminded me of the scene in "The Unit" where the blindfolded potential recruit builds more guns from the parts on the table than he was told would be possible.
The BATFE laws are more convoluted than anything Heckler and Koch have ever made 😂
which is saying something because they made the G11, and that thing is wild
French regulation : "Hold my glass of wine"
German regulations hold my Beer.
And for NO
@@Zorglub1966 French regulation is simpler when it comes to semi auto weapons since they all fall in the same category (ofc there are exceptions but they're not the majority)
@@Neutronium57C'est pas faux!
I imagine 2/3rds of the ATF agents could not sort this out without a regs book and and two weeks reading it.
Wild assumption that they can read at all.
It's been 250 years and they still can't grasp "shall not be infringed".
I doubt they could sort it out after reading it for a freakin year straight.
“Everybody ought to have a full auto MP5” that’s the most logical thing I’ve heard today. Abolish the NFA
Listening to Ian talk about HK machine guns on a Monday morning at work while doing payroll and paperwork. So soothing.
I recently bought a transferable Mac-10 and went to an indoor range. The manager there said I needed a second tax stamp because it had a stock, saying it was an "SBR". He showed me his MP5 as an example, I pointed out that he had a registered trigger pack on a semi auto receiver and it was NOT the same thing as what I had. In his case, yes, the MP5's semi auto receiver needed to be SBR'd in the config they had it. He had to save face in front of his employees so could not admit he was wrong. A self proclaimed ATF "expert" that handled all of the paperwork at that FFL w/SOT gun store/range. I know the law can be confusing but like come on man.... lol great video though and one I will show him if he gives me trouble again.
The converted HK94 with the registered sear, can be a "one stamp gun", if on the ATF Form (1,3,4, or 5), the shortened HK94 is married to the sear. I own one myself in that configuration.
Luxury beliefs. Luxury pastimes. Luxury BS. Shall not.
I pointed out that a hole in the wall pawn/gun shop had an SBR hanging on the wall. It was a PPS-43 pistol with its overfolding stock not welded or pinned. Store owner said he's an expert and it's not an SBR as long as you don't shoulder it.
I'm sure we all have know this type of person and visited their shop. They can only stay open because they buy tools/items for pennies on the dollar. Not for their rusty $600 Mosin Nagants or $800 Glocks.
Once a machine gun, always a machine gun. Anything else you do to it irrelevant.
I live in the UK and I'm poor as heck, there's zero chance I'm ever going to own an MP5, still found this video fascinating!
And they expect us to volunteer for their armed forces. We have many debased administrators and law makers who command no respect from the people ... social workers and boys in frocks 😊
Me too 💪🇬🇧😎, but I'm buying a Euromillions ticket tomorrow just to increase my chances of owning an MP5 (and a big patch of forest to enjoy it in...) one day from "Absolutely Frig-All Chance Whatsoever" to "More Likely To Get Hit By An Asteroid..."
@@therogers4432 Take a holiday in eastern europe.
I wonder if this comment will survive the pruning blade. Politically awkward comments on UT gave a very short half life. Bit like your lottery gamble . Anyway I hope the suggestion helps 😊
You can own a suppressed, .22lr SBR (overall length over 30") MP5 with unlimited mag capacity - Thats a massive flex in some ways on the US, Australia, New Zealand and Canada who would have to go through some or A lot of BS to have
@@DefunctYompelvert Thats something I suppose but the point some of us are making us that we should NOT have to ask permission.
"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."-Best Christmas movie of all time.
Don't forget that there are unmodified registered receiver guns with modified unregistered trigger packs, and if you remove the trigger pack from it you don't have a short barrel rifle but you can't use the trigger pack on another host even though it would fit.
In summary, there are three types of legally registered HK machine guns that civilians can own. One, Registered Receiver guns which are the same specs as factory machine guns and will accept all factory parts and trigger groups.
Two, registered auto sears or trigger packs. These are conversion devices modified to fit unmodified semi auto receivers. Like Ian said, you have to watch out for the SBR thing.
And Three, there are what the ATF refers to as improper registrations. That would be the guns where the receiver was registered but not modified and a trigger group was modified but not registered. This type of conversion is the least desirable as the receiver will not accept any factory machine gun trigger housings and, you cannot separate the trigger group from the receiver and use it on another gun. It's a one trick pony.
The reason it's not a SBR without the trigger group is because the receiver is registered as a machine gun, even though it won't accept machine gun parts. But, it also can't be a SBR because you can't legally separate the trigger group from the receiver, otherwise then you have an unregistered conversion trigger pack.
Makes perfect sense, right?
I do also believe i have heard there are a few registered trigger packs/sears where the receiver has been also been modified. Much more rare and in an even more sketchy area regarding legality
@@MartinsMachinesFJ Vollmer actually did this and the ATF told him no, because modifying the receiver made a second machine gun even if a registered sear was installed in it. I reluctantly admit that the ATF was correct in that regard because the modified receiver would accept a factory machine gun pack at that point. Vollmer rewelded the receivers back to semi auto specifications but was told by the ATF that they were now machine guns even though they had been converted back to semi. Vollmer sued the ATF and was able to show the court the functional difference and won the case. This is one of the times where ATF lost a case they made based on their theory of "once a machine gun, always a machine gun"
Thanks for the explanation Ian! There’s thousands of guys who are kicking themselves for not buying a transferable sear pack way back in 1986…..
Can't believe I was so stupid to be non-existent back then rather than acquiring land and guns
They weren't all that cheap even then...
@@riu.1180exactly😂
@@Jreb1865yeah… but you could buy a crate of Mosins for $400 with 1,660 rounds of ammunition and the crate.
You could buy a crate of Carcanos for $99.95 with ammo.
Damn. I wish that I had the foresight when I was 11 to have picked one of these up. I wonder if my parents would have been okay with buying me machine gun parts?
Now I need an emotional support MP5 😭
“and I’ll be there….”hk response team
Moral of the story... NFA is a train wreck.
They need to reopen the registry,
@@chaostheoryfilms Reopen it? I say they need to get rid of the registry entirely, it serves zero purpose other than to hurt otherwise law-abiding citizens.
@@hdog9046 I don't disagree, however right now aside from a breakdown in law and order, reopening the registry/another amnesty is the most likely thing to happen.
@@chaostheoryfilms Yeah, little victories are all we can get until enough people realize just how bad most gun laws are.
If I had the money to worry about an auto HK full auto trigger kit, I wouldn’t worry about the stamp.
Bruh you can get em from surplus sites as paper weights I've seen cetme ones for like 150 bucks
the amount of mental gymnastics on the ATF's part needed for these laws is insane
Don't blame the ATF: this is the only way you could rule given the laws as-written.
Clear as mud; exactly the issue with these laws, they are nonsensical and even the people enforcing them do not understand them. Great video sir.
"With all these convoluted laws around transferring machine guns and 'assault weapons,' those criminals with their glocks with switches won't be able to do any harm!"
-Not a sensible human being
Would you believe that felons are actually exempt from being charged for NFA violations? The Supreme Court ruled in Haynes-v-US that felons cannot be expected to apply for NFA registration because it violates their 5th Amendment rights against self-incrimination. That's right, the NFA is only ever used to charge otherwise upstanding and rule-abiding citizens. Career criminals just get the same "felon in possession (of a firearm)" charge regardless of type (or even just for ammo). There are some potential enhancements for that charge, but they're primarily about how the gun was being used or what else the possesor was doing at the time (eg: used in a crime, or along with drug possession, etc...).
You will never see a felon with a glock switch be put away for 30 years on a NFA charge but you will see a regular person who got lost in the maze of laws end up getting 30. Violent felon who killed 2 people, long history of breaking the law and violence, vs guy who didn’t have enough U.S. made parts in his parts kit.
@@1lovesoni they don't charge them with failing to register the gun because that actually would be contrary to self-incrimination. Blame whoever wrote the 5th amendment, not the ATF.
Thank you Ian, you cleared the mud a little bit!
Thanks Reagan
One of his more stupid decisions. 😑
@@LD-Orbs Just one of many. I'm sure the Black Panthers appreciated his input as governor of California
That's a lot of words just to say repeal the NFA... Good info, but they make it vague so they jam you up whenever they want.
^^ Exactly this ^^ The rules are designed to be confusing and vague.
ATF should not make rules. Creating confusion to go after law abiding citizens. Too afraid to go after machine guns in the hood. A judge will release them in a day with no bail anyway.
And to further muddy the waters, you have the registered sear option vs the registered trigger box option, with their own advantages and disadvantages as well.
Thats why the people who pay the most for these things actually go through a broker. It costs significantly more than doing a private sale on the open market but folks with that kind of money like to pay for the extra peace of mind that what they're buying is legal, functional, and as advertised. There are only a handful of em in the whole country but they're never hurting for business.
Thank you for this video. I already knew everything explained in this video but it took me literally months of researching the internet to figure out what he just explained in a few minutes.
Holy crap! That’s an insanely convoluted set of regs.
Ian thx for the clarification, I own these HK’s both ways and I have a registered trigger pack that I’m selling. This video is a great source that I can use to help explain this process to potential buyers.
"ATF" The Dark Lords of obscure and convoluted description of any regulations they have.
Repeal the NFA
We are actively losing ground in the gun rights department. Machineguns are never coming back unfortunately
Shut up
@@idontcare-ct7jm3d printed and Chinese Ali-express Glock auto sears will make machine guns undeniably in common use.
@@idontcare-ct7jm not with that attitude
@@idontcare-ct7jmThere are fewer gun laws now than at any point in the 1900s. Defeatist propaganda glows.
This is extremely helpful for the masses ty Ian!!!
As a owner of multiple auto sears / sear packs I learned all that you explained here many years ago to keep me from wearing orange jumpsuit and handcuffs 😮😊
Thank you for educating all of us 😊😊 Please keep up the great job sir .😊😊😊
Don’t say this stuff on the Internet bud.
@@nl9002 thanks for the legal advice
And I'd bet no one's ever asked or it's ever been brought up except by you lol
@@Hilth0Modding
Just wanted to let you know that, I’m vegan a practice CrossFit. 😂
Great content Ian
Thanks again Ian
There's also "mated" sear packs and "uppers" - I remember back in the day it was possible to get them 'separated' if the sear was registered - you didn't get two machineguns out of it, but could then use the sear pack in another host.
All my HK NFA toys though, thankfully, aren't that convoluted, and all the 'hosts' are registered SBRs as well.
Thanks for this video! I haven't seen this explained so clearly until now!
Great video and very informative.
Thank you Ian ❤
I watch all of the goofy Varusteleka ads on Ian's channel. Ian, if you read this, tell them to keep making them. In fact, tell them to make them even goofier.
If you have a registered sear in a host with a barrel less than 16” and a stock, as soon as you remove the registered sear you have a SBR. This is why most hosts are also registered as SBR’s too. (Or should be). There are also registered receiver guns where the receiver is a UN-modified semi-auto (clip on lower NOT swing down) and the modified trigger group/auto sear is not registered. These guns you cannot remove the sear from the host without having a un-registered machine gun. Before 1986 these HK sear machine guns were very expensive for the time (about $1,000 NOT including the $200 transfer tax) You had the cost of the semi-auto HK94 for $500 plus the cost of the sear, plus cost of gunsmithing to modify the trigger pack and welding up the semi-auto bolt carrier (full auto mp5 carriers were not readily available then). At the time a registered M16 from Colt was $500 plus tax. And new Cobray M11 nine’s were $150 plus tax. 99% of transferable “MP5’s” are registered conversions of HK 94’s done by Vollmer, Fleming or S&H in the 1980’s. Real original all German transferable MP5’s are super rare as they had to be made and imported PRIOR to the GCA of 1968.
Pretty solid video on the subject. It definitely is a little complex. It get's really fun when you have multiple host guns that have different barrel lengths and you have to be careful about how you take them apart and assemble them to make sure you don't make an SBR by accident. Also, you can have a two-pin upper receiver if you don't have a full-auto carrier/bolt and the receiver is modified to ensure you can't insert one (receiver block). Conversely, you can have a full auto carrier and bolt in a semi auto gun if it has a shelf and not a second pin. Basically, as long as it has one of the two, you're in the clear. All my hosts have full auto carriers and bolts, but they also have shelves/no second pin hole. Generally, the only thing I have to swap if moving from gun to gun is the ejector on the pack.
very important. thank you.
Crazy how a piece of metal or even plastic can get you up to 10-30 years in prison
All it takes is enough people willing to believe that magical words on paper written by perfect strangers, applies to them. This is how all "laws" work.
Makes me wonder how "activist" prosecuters and judges handle switches on Glocks in Chicago.
@@maineiacman they do so by suing Glock. Which doesn’t make them in the first place, because that makes sense somehow?
@@maineiacman suing glock who dont make the switch because reasons
@@sethwallace4878 Yeah that move was a real head shaker.
Cant say i have this problem ian
12:00 Expecting to see this combo as the "two guns" in the next two-gun match video. 😄
Clear as mud, thanks.
Fascinating!! Thanks!
These issues also apply to registered bolts for uzi and teck9s. If the bolt is separated from a host weapons (sold) you can end up with a SBR or AOW. Many tech9s have a front pistol grip when a mg bolt is installed which becomes a AOW if not accompanied by a mg bolt.
Aow?
@ninobrown909 a handgun with a second vertical hand grip is classified as a AOW ( any other weapon with a $5.00 transfer tax)
AOW - A catchall category of NFA stuff that covers "concealable" guns that don't meet the definition of non-NFA "pistols", "revolvers", nor fall under any NFA category.
One of the most common ways to "accidentally" make an AOW is to add a vertical foregrip to a legal handgun, because (according to ATF's purely administrative and unilateral judgement) the definition of a "pistol" or a "revolver" only allows ONE vertical grip - the normal pistol grip. Thus, a "pistol" you have a VFG on is both "concealable" (less than 26" long overall) and yet isn't a handgun.
Yeah, bolting that $10 airsoft grip to the accessory rail of your Glock or Sig magically makes it an NFA item.
Thanks, Ian 👍
This was a great video, I've always wondered about the legality of HK lower swapping. Turns out, it's far more complicated than I thought
Thank you. For almost five seconds, I didn't feel sick knowing the NFA is a thing. You've remedied that!
Very interesting and helpful. To add to the old err.... maxim: Certainties are death , taxes and arcane gun laws....
The further into the video, the more it sounds like "The Gateau from the Chateau" episode from the British comedy series "'Allo 'Allo!", except that it's HK trigger packs and receivers mixed with BATFE rules.
I definitely learned something new today. Not being an HK person, I had no idea.
This was really interesting listening to this difference between the 2 variants of the MP5 and i really liked your comment about how everyone ought to buy a full-auto MP5 because the sears make it easier to produce extra machine guns.
There are actually three variants. Registered push-pin machine guns. Registered trigger assemblies and registered sears. The distinction in the latter two is which part carry’s the serial number the sear or the trigger group. Based on that it also informs which parts can be replaced… if you break a registered sear, you can’t replace it. The pack is also modified for use with a registered sear (sear, hammer and springs). If you break a part in a registered trigger group, you can replace any part in the trigger group with a factory part - including the sear - which is the registered part in a registered sear! Clear as mud!
I'll need to watch this again. I need to watch this again.
Hi Ian, would you do a video about the weapons in the movie "Leon the professional"? I watched it the other way and i have many questions about the guns in that film.
Frickin early gang checking in
Yo, reporting for duty!
"A big ball of wibbly wobbly, timey wimey stuff" Ian explaining legality of HKs and the NFA
Best comment ever.
@ronwalsh Thanks! 😅
I've known enough about the NFA to be dangerous for years and always likened it to some dark art because one fuck-up could land you in jail. I only recently got my first NFA item, an SBR. I hope to add another and a suppressor to the list soon. Watching Ian explaining *this* cluster of a situation makes me glad HKs are too rich for my blood. 😆
The Doctor approves your comment!
Close. It's "Kraut Space Magic".
Wow even by ATF standards this is an insane rule without any use against illegal posession of a machine gun.
Back in the mid-90's I bought a transferable converted Franchi LF-62 from a well-known dealer that, according to the form, had an HK 3-caliber sear installed in it. When I got the gun I realized that not only was there no HK sear in it, the serial number was just electropencilled on the frame in a place hidden by the detachable stock. The gun traced back to Bill Fleming, who was then in jail for various shenanigans. I sold the gun soon after since I was uncomfortable owning it but I'm sure it's still out there somewhere.
Great video and did clarify a lot... however, it brought up a question that it then didn't answer. You said that the bolt in a semi-only gun is also different than a full-auto bolt. So in the case of a transferrable full auto trigger pack that has been modified to hook onto unmodified semi-only guns - how does this enable full auto if the bolt also needs modification to work with the trigger pack? Wouldn't the gun still be semi-auto or not function at all? I'm assuming that the trigger mech internals have also been modified somehow to use the semi bolt? Does that mean they no longer work with a full auto bolt?
WOW, a factory transferable MP5! I was under the impression, that all transferable MP5s were HK94 conversions (sear or receiver), since the MP5 was introduced (1966?) just before the 1968 Machinegun import ban. Learn something everyday.
Secondly: The converted HK94 with the registered sear, can be a "one stamp gun", if on the ATF Form (1,3,4, or 5), the shortened HK94 is married to the sear. I own one myself in that configuration. Thanks for the great video.
Im wondering if it’s just a conversion to factory specs and he was mistaken but It is potentially possible. If so it will certainly go for big money
@@MartinsMachines Yes, would seem to be a rarity. I have never seen or heard about a transferable, factory one. A conversion should then, bring less money than the sear.
Apparently, ATF has let a few pre-sample slip through the system into a transferable status, but generally, they catch their mistake Whether it’s the next transfer or another examiner looks at the paperwork.
I was waiting patiently for the “clear as mud” and I was rewarded
Clear as mud is a complete understatement. Mine were built as SBR’s with sear ready lowers. Sear redy, should I ever win the lotto.
Fascinating.
God, I hate the ATF even more now and I thought that wasn’t possible
I have a PTR that is advertised as having this capability. Nice to see what is involved to do it.
They make gun laws complicated and convoluted because that makes it easier for law enforcement to misuse them in order to infringe the only constitutionally guaranteed right to explicitly contain the phrase "shall not be infringed"..
Um, the Founding Fathers, even Jefferson, NEVER thought military weapons like cannon should be in the hands of anyone with money. Military grade ordnance in the hands of random people would have terrified every one of them, with reason. Think I lie? Google 'The Whiskey Rebellion' sometime.
Gun are not the problem. IDIOTS with guns are the problem. Restricting guns is almost like restricting abortions. People who want them badly enough WILL get them, no matter the costs or consequences. Then add the wackos on all sides and it becomes a shitstorm.
Guns are not the problem. MACHINE GUNS are no the problem.
The problem? WAY too many people in the US think guns are toys or magic wands that you wave to make things 'better'. But that is not a soundbyte, so it is ignored in the need to scare people into giving up more freedom or money.
@@dwrdwlsn5 It's common sense that military ordinance shouldn't be in the hands of randoms. People back then were a lot more in touch with reality, thus simple things like this were simply held to be self-evident. Nuance was a part of social etiquette. Now the debate has shifted to schizos talking about needing to own landmines and howitzers or it's a "tyranny".
that or bc our gun laws are basically antiques from a time long before the internet, and the ATF is writing regulations around what they have.
You’re right, but a right is a right. One right is no more or less of a right than another just because the language chosen to outline it explicitly mentions one of its core characteristics as a right. Shall not be infringed is implied by nature of its definition as a right. In other words, just because some ye ole dudes decided to be redundant with their language doesn’t make that right a double right. Anyway, ACAB, don’t forget it.
@@williambrasky3891 Yeah, but it is a right only until certain people decide it shouldn't be one. Funny thing, the people who GENERALLY do such first are NOT the liberals because the other side knows who has the power and who deserves it. (Themselves)
wait did i hear that correctly? 35k for a gun? at that price people can afford to spend the extra 1000 to ask a lawyer what they can and cant do...
Good luck finding a lawyer that understands gun laws well enough to give you worthwhile advice. None of the lawyers in my family do.
@@dbmail545 Just learn the law yourself.. Any gun hobbyist is basically a self-made lawyer at this point thanks to the intricacies of being able to own them
35k for a cheap one. Some of them go up to 50 or 60k.
@dbmail545 currently gun laws mean nothing, you can follow the legal letter of law, then the ATF will make a new rule and suddenly you're no longer compliant. Might aswell just do what you want.
At that amount just pay the relatively minor tax stamp for a SBR.
The machineguns not having to be registered as a SBR loophole is really just an edge case.
Well that clears that up ..................I think.
I have built a couple of HKs from parts kits, and being they were built semi auto, there is a whole list of stuff you need to do to the trigger pack to have it semi enough for the AFT.
You shoukd have released this at Christmas just for the Die Hard reference
😂
I'm really going to miss Bruce Willis making movies...
Confused? Just remember: ATF once ruled that a shoelace is a machine gun.
September 1986, when I finally got approval to take possession of my select-fire MAC-10 - and in unfolding the stock and shouldering it wondered if it needed to be registered as an SBR too..... after a little digging found out one of the points covered in this video.
The upper actually DOES need to be SBR registered if it's ever combined with an unregistered semi-auto lower.
I’ve never seen a forgotten weapons video say “no views” before. Wowza!
By the time you've left a comment, there were probably hundreds of views and several comments getting typed! We wish our space weather channel were as popular as this, one of our favorite channels ever on TH-cam.
Oh I wasn’t trying to be first. By the time I’d clicked the video it already had comments. I was more meaning I’d never seen one freshly uploaded like that :)
@@troyandskyelar9588 You refreshed at just the right time. Coincidentally Ian is refreshing.
Ian, you mentioned that internals of the receiver may prevent the auto sear from fitting. Surely the example you showed had no such modification. Is it a special case? Or were you referring to a different HK system that trigger pack may fit?
I'd like to see a part 2 to this concerning AR DIASs.
Can you modify the (legal, registered) machine gun trigger pack to be compatible with the (legal, unregistered, totally stock) semi-auto upper *after* it's (the trigger pack) been registered as a machine gun? Probably...not?
Nice, Die Hard reference.
love the Die Hard reference.
*I'm suprised this is still up on TH-cam.*
Off topic, but my Ian Pat boonie from Where's The Liquor arrived today. I had a good laugh, also because of the "Made in Poland" tag, and am expecting many years of service from this awesome product ✌🏻
You appear to have missed one very important bit of info... So if, like you said, you have a semi auto receiver, and a registered full auto trigger pack that is designed to fit semi auto receivers, what about the block on the inside of the semi auto receiver that prevents full auto bolt from working? How does that work? What semi auto receivers do NOT have this "feature"?
Loved the die hard reference
So I can have an unregulated trigger select fire trigger pack that fits into my semi auto shelf receiver and make a machine gun. Nice this makes lots of sense.
What if you modify a full auto trigger pack to fit on a semi auto upper, like the one you showed? Did I miss something?
Solution: Repeal the NFA. If a law or set thereof is so complex and convoluted that it REQUIRES a specialized lawyer to navigate, then the law ought be repealed.
You would also need a full-auto bolt.
If the semi auto upper was originally a rifle and would now be an SBR if you removed the transferable grip that doesn't actually make it illegal. You only really need to register it as an SBR if you intend to ever disassemble it... right?
So what about if you just swap the trigger packs into other grips instead of just swapping the pack with the grip?
Ian, What about the bolt carriers related to semi vs auto and the blocks to prevent use of auto carriers/bolt in H&K guns?
They are mechanically relevant, but not legally. A full-auto bolt carrier is not a legally controlled item.
@@ForgottenWeapons but don't you have to modify the reciever, thus making it a controlled item?
@@mekaerwin7187 same question I have. Cause the SP5 and MKE clones have a denial bar, or whatever you call it to prevent installing a full auto bolt carrier, so if you have for example a Fleming Auto sear how do you legally install a full Auto bolt carrier into your semi auto host?
@mekaerwin7187 i think it depends on which upper?
Die Hard references are always welcome, Ian.
How does the modified trigger pack work in the semi upper receiver if there is a full auto block preventing the use of a full auto bolt that your unable to remove legally?
As someone who is not in the USA, but loves the engineering of firearms I too would live to know this.
Short version, you do not use those receivers. Akin to high shelf and low shelf Ar-15 receivers, though with significantly less consequences in that case. All HK-type roller delayed receivers need the block to be legal but some go a step further and add the bolt restriction as well, and removing that is illegal but it is not legally required to be added, so one could make their own receiver from a flat and only add the block.
@@karatos if I follow here: someone made the upper half without those blocks it would be fine, but as soon as they are cut out of one that it's not? Surely that could open up a whole can of worms and issues for selling it on, if you're selling the complete thing and not just the auto trigger pack? Does that then (kindo like Ian pointed out) make it 2 guns you need to sell?
Also thank you for the reply
Basically in general, yes but usually semi guns with a proper shelf do not have a block. However, semi guns with lesser shelf’s or holes have other blocks
Very interesting, thank you. Now I just wish I had enough money to worry about it. 🤑🤣
So, if you have a registered receiver, could one legally possess multiple select fire trigged packs? SEF, navy, etc.?
We can and should blame legislators for failing to produce coherent laws in regards to firearms. They are not firearms experts. In fact, they are often not experts at anything.
So, the problem goes deeper than just firearms. The whole legislative sector could do with some refurbishment. We should avoid people legislating a subject about which they are, at times, completely ignorant.
The French have a perfect machine for this type of process .
@@kaboom4679 Which machine is that?
@@kaboom4679is it a guillotine?
Ian did a great job on a complicated matter - but muddied the waters a bit not making a distinction between a registered sear and a registered pack - the key being which part is serialized.
He also didn’t talk enough about “marrying” a sear to a gun - you might be able to move that pack to another gun - but not if it’s married because that as he points out created an unregistered SBR assuming the upper started life as a rifle. You could see in this cash that the upper was also a registered part, probably married to the sear in the clip on pack, based on the S&H manufacturer engraving on the back left of the receiver. But maybe it was registered separately as a SBR… confusing stuff!