The biggest problem then is umpires NOT calling out a huge amount of serve-toss violations; ergo the calls that do come as a result seem unfair, when other players seem to get away with it from other umpires. Certainly this is a major problem at club and local league level in the UK.
AGREED .....and very probably, the wrong kind of "character" being put into these "umpire" positions. Specifically, they might know the rules very clearly, but are AFRAID to either make the call and/or make the call CONSISTENTLY ......EVERY TIME a player commits the violation. In the examples where the player commits the foul over and over ....this situation is dealing with a "CHARACTER" who will NOT make the necessary correction in order to play properly and legally. His "character" has him thinking "he is in the right and the umpire is in the wrong". I know many characters like this. It's not at all uncommon .....and I most certainly do NOT sympathize with them. Learn to serve properly or stay home. .
I don't see this problem "solved" until cameras and AI replace human umpires. A computer umpire doesn't fear the displeasure of the bad server and certainly has the data to impartially call an illegal serve. Both sides could review the data and learn exactly what the server did wrong. Better living through technology!
I analysed these Services but first i want to point out two things from my experience as a player and umpire: 1. Doing a legal Serve is very easy. Here are some examples of always perfectly legal serves Fan Zhendong Timo Boll Vladimir Somsonov Ovcharov 2. Judging whether a Service is illegal or not is very very difficult. In order to make sure that the server doesn't get an illegal advantage all you can do is to just stick to the rules. Which are: Hold the ball in your open palm, start the Throw above table level and throw the Ball at least 16cm almost straight into the air. The ball must always be visible to the opponent. The most important one: The player has to make sure that the serve looks CLEARLY legal so the umpire can judge. The most seen illegal serve is the toss towards the body, which gives the server an unfiar advantage regarding spin and allows for striking closer to the body. It's correct to call it, but it these serves are so common that many umpires do not call these and people think it is legal to serve like that. But its not. Now lets analyse the calls: 00:00-00:26 Clearly illegal He throws the Ball 1. towards the body 2. not high enough. Player can get advantage of his illegal serve -> Umpire decided 100% correctly. 00:29-01:00 Ma Long Not clearly legal, not clearly illegal It looks like he doesn't throw the ball high enough, because his hand is still moving up a little bit after the ball leaved hit palm. It doesn't look like a 16cm throw. - correct call but unnecessary strict because he did not get an adventage. 01:00-04:00 Toss towards body, but this can't really be judged from this camera angle. On the next 2 serves you can't see the toss. But the last one reveals the toss towards the body. -> Correct call. The serve he does is the reversed pendulum back-/sidespin and would be much more difficult for him if he would toss straight up. Player has to make sure that the serve looks clearly legal. Maybe the first calls are wrong, but the consecutive calls show, that the player where not able to do his serve with a CLEARLY legal toss. What the commentator mentioned about the difficulty of tossing straight because you have to also move the arm away is just bullshit. If you toss towards the body the arm gets in the way, but if you toss straight up the arm isn't a problem. I think at the end there are some misscalls, but at this rate of illegal serves umpires judgment can of course get worse during the match. Now all the blame is on the umpire but the players should have done a clearly legal serve in the first place. 04:05 Tossing the ball over the table surface, that means the toss is not behind the table line. I can't see the toss but the umpire could call a fault according to rules but he decides to call a let for not beeing sure wether it was a clearly legal serve and giving the Server a second chance to make a CLEARLY legal serve which he failed to do. Although i can't see the the toss the behavior of the umpire seems legit. This is the same umpire that calls the the fault at the beginning correctly. 05:09 The ball gets hidden by his face while falling. This can be a advantage because it gets slightly more difficult for the opponent to judge the exactly timing of the service stroke. On the next serve the player wasn't able to do a CLEARLY legal serve, the ball seems to be less hidden by the face but ist not clear that it is out of the face completely. Than the player complaines too much about the call of his faults and gets a yellow card for that. Which is OK. Then the player is going on to complain the he is doing the same serve yesterday and umpire didn't call his serves before at the doubles und that he can not take the head out of the way and it is impossible for him to serve correctly and receives a yellow/red card for more complaining which is also OK. Later in the game Patrick baum switched to more Backhandserve which he was able to do legally. All he had to do is to not hide the ball with his head, which is easy. PS:I just watched the whole match and from the other side you can clearly see the the ball is very hidden so the calls are absolutely correct and the player gets an advantage of hiding the ball. Again same umpire. This is an amazing umpire that he can see that. Somewhere in the comments someone complained especially on this umpire and that he should banned or something like that. But as i see it he is a good and fair umpire. Nothing wrong with him. he just sticks to the rules.
Ovcharov 's serves are not always legal his high throw tomahawk serve is never mostly vertical there is always a lot of horizontal movement. He uses this illegal serve a couple of times in almost every match. th-cam.com/video/oHqSsGFCJOY/w-d-xo.html skip to 2:32 to see an extremely illegal serve whereby the ball starts at the left side of the table but ends up at the right side by the time contact is made. skip to 0:10 shows dima's illegal serve again. Dima's other serves such as his normal high throw serve or his backhand serve is legal, but every time he uses his tomahawk serve he using a lot of horizontal movement..
Yes, rules are rules. Couldn't understand why people are blaming on the judge meanwhile they are not the one sitting there watching through their own eyes
Artem Makogon I agree. I see bad serves all the time with no calls. At local clubs where I play its become so bad that no one knows how to throw a proper ball up anymore.
And there are only like 3 rules to know in TT. I know them and folow them after one year playing. No excuse that Patrick did not understand the fault calls. He's a lefty, which means he has to know to be extra careful because of the angle.
Back before covering the serve with your arm or body was still legal, Samsonov always had good serves. Behind the table, open palm and high tosses. When the arm or body block was illegal, I personally thought Samsonov would have trouble adjusting since he previously used his body width to cover the ball. But lo and behold, we adjusted very well. Even in tv broadcast angles I could clearly see the ball and the initial contact with his racket. Really a good service example.👍👍👍
@2centavos Well for Calderano I'm not so sure. The rules state that the ball must be lying in an open, flat palm. With Calderano's serves, he sort of bends his hand into a U-shape, as if he was "scooping" the ball. He definitely tosses the ball up high and straight though, I really like his high toss serves
It is a major problem that most referees don't do their job. I was a Danish national-level referee in the 80ies. I have known referees that never called a fault, regardless of how the serve was made. It created a strange environment, with some players following serve rules and some not. The Danish TT Association even advertised serve rules, like "Do you throw the ball at least 16 cm high when you serve?" Because certainly the referees would not correct you. I did and was thanked by some top level players who played in the German Bundesliga. And was disliked by others who "never had a problem with anyone else than me" (which would have been correct) And this is what we see here: a result of poor refereeing _elsewhere_, with nobody trying to observe referees and assure standards, like it is done in football. And so referees following the rules get into problems and it hurts the players too. #2.06.02 The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards, without imparting spin, so that it rises at least 16cm after leaving the palm of the free hand and then falls without touching anything before being struck. #2.06.04 From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by the server or his or her doubles partner or by anything they wear or carry. #2.06.06 It is the responsibility of the player to serve so that the umpire or the assistant umpire can be satisfied that he or she complies with the requirements of the Laws, and either may decide that a service is incorrect. - which means that the referees are mostly right. My verdicts: 0:01 - fault, not near vertically ("NNV") 0:11 - fault, NNV 0:17 - fault, NNV 0:32 - OK 1:01.. - all faulty, NNV 3:29 - OK 3:36 - OK 4:24 - ?, not clearly not over the table 5:09 - fault, referee can not see the ball, and suspect violation of #2.06.04 5:23 - fault for the same reason, though service seems OK ...
@@berateyn they have to be able to see to determine if the server met the requirements for a legal serve, though that requires them to be sitting on both sides of the table for left and right handed players.
Also ball must be thrown from the palm of the hand, without imparting spin, from above the table, behind the end of the table and inside the sides of the table (and be hit in that same region) and thrown up within (45 degrees I think) and to the best of ability in opponents view at all times. In this video, I beleive the umpires were correct 90% of time, but due to camera angles, it's not always possible to confirm.
@Arkadi Danielyan the last guys head was not in the way of fall. You refer to the last scene which is from the opposite side of the referee calling it as a fault. If it is hidden by the head from that position it cannot be seen as hidden from the umpires position. This is stupid! I think no referee should call a service wrong. The players should complain if a service is wrong and then the umpire should be able to check. But not from the side, but from the opponents view! Such nonsense decisions. Just let them play.
@Arkadi Danielyan I didn't offend you personally so I don't understand why you have to. Maybe you should be ittf referee, so every game would be totally fair 😇
You know what makes it even funnier? He speaks perfect, fluent German so he could even be German himself. Of course he could come from Austria or Swiss too tho
If the Umpire think that's illegal serve. He needs to see Lebesson's serves. This guy gets away with illegal serves. He often toss the ball under the table and his serving arm is moving towards his body while serving. He often flick the ball with his hand towards his body.
quickzilver3333 I played against Lebessson two years ago in a french tournament. At the end of the match, we spoke a little bit and he told me that he was actually hiding the ball with his head when he hits it. Nothing about what you said tho
Bastian Hood You said that was TWO YEARS AGO! I am talking about 2017 Tournaments that Lebesson participated. His serves are illegal and there were times that the Umpire warned him. Most of the time he gets away with his illegal serves. looks like he found another way to Cheat.
It's the first time i see even the opponent of the player who kept getting called can't tolerate this XD btw, very good sportsmanship for Such, same thing happen to Chen weixing or michael maze may caused a fight
The problem is, the players dont know rules of table tennis, thats really bad.Umpires did great job, if every umpire make like them, the serve will be ok and without problems.But players just trying how make serve illegal without consequence lost point from umpires.
I think most of the time the umpire was right, so I think the players should just switch to a safe serve, because it's really hard to win against umpires, and for sure, not during the match. I think players should be really responsible about respecting serving rule, as this may affect future of the game. In our days the ball services are very various and complicated, this is one of the causes why the rallies are so short, because the opponent can't really read them, this increasing the chances of the third ball, but when you are serving illegally, this is exponentially harder. I think every table tennis had this frustrating feeling when someone is serving illegally and you cannot read the serve properly, but because is just a simple non official competition without umpires you do not complain about that. I'm sure that pro players have this feeling too, but because of professional solidarity, they do not complain about that. Why this may affect the future of the game? I think that ITTF may decide at one point that services are making the rallies shorter or boring, and may come with some new service constrains that will improve the game consistency but will reduce from services diversity. I personally consider that service diversity really make this game beautiful as it is really an unique signature for each player, so I really want to keep this diversity, but for that I think the coaches and players should be more responsible about the services trainings.
The situation with serves at all levels of the game is a real mess. At the top level, many players are deliberately pushing as close to the line of what is allowed as they can, and that makes it very difficult for umpires. Some umpires will just turn a blind eye, others try to enforce and that leads to massive inconsistencies. It's not surprising that players who get away with dodgy serves for tournament after tournament are angry when one keen umpire suddenly starts calling them. Personally I feel for the umpires because you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. In my local league, in the lower divisions, nobody bothers about serving rules. Many players just walk up to the table and quickly smack the ball back in play before you are ready. Nobody wants to be the player / umpire who tries to enforce the rules, in case everyone else thinks you're a twat. Table tennis as a whole needs to get its shit together on this by demanding that anyone who plays competitively, whether local league or in top class tournaments, sticks to the rules and they should also insist that umpires enforce all the rules too. let's face it, it's not difficult for any player to toss the ball straight up from an open palm six inches behind the table and then hit it when it comes back down. If you can't do that, you should probably give up the game and take up gardening instead!
This is a very accurate assessment of the serves in table tennis. The rules need tightening up to make them easier to apply. Many pros and top players leave their arm removal until too late which is illegal, most are borderline which makes it hard to judge accurately.
The problem is that almost all players have illegal serves now. No one wants to be the umpire who calls "fault" all the time, also because in some cases the match could become a farce like that with Such against Gardos, with I don't know how many faults. If ITTF really started to enforce strict rules this wouldn't happen.
100% rooting for the referees: not their fault that ball-less other referees don't enforce the rules. As per some players, if they can't adapt their serves to make it right, stop competing and go back to the practice room. Ling Ling TT 40 hours!
Ma Long's fault call was a shake my head moment. Then Ma Long look totally astonished and on his face you could almost hearing him saying "what the hell are you talking about you foolish umpire". 😆
BTW this exists in other sports too. In football (soccer), at any corner kick, you can close your eyes and call fault, because the defenders are hanging onto the arms and legs of the attackers. But referees try not to be too strict and make a best guess at what will be acceptable by the standards the players have created. Because you can't hold the opponents arm, or any body part. You can stand in their way, use your arms to protect yourself against an incoming opponent, but you can't wrap your arms around them. But this happens all the time, every match every corner kick. In tennis, players like Nadal or Djokovic are consistently violating the rule of smooth play, bouncing the ball a million times before serving, or doing all kinds of nervous tricks while the opponent is waiting to serve. Umpires hardly ever interfere, because the players have been allowed to set the standards.
They should have a 3rd umpire like cricket and rugby which can be evaluated if the umpire calls fault. Obviously expensive and would only be used in majors.
The ball toss rule is regularly violated by the players, and the governing body should either enforce the rule or get rid of it. These serves are all legitimate faults.
if you interpret rule 2. 06. 02 "... project the ball near vertically upwards...." then both of them are doing foul serves. they are intentionally throwing the ball at an angle towards their paddles and not as vertically as possible. maybe, it's the reason why the umpire was fouling them each time. if mizutani or samsonov or even lowly amateurs serve well following this rule, why can't they. they are supposed to be pros.
The MAIN problem is that the serve rules are extremely subjective. All rules are somewhat subjective because they will be interpreted by a human being (umpire) during the match - but that is a given. But here we have more than that - the rule 2.6.6 specifically states that the server has to satisfy the umpires which sounds ridiculous because it is absolutely unnecessary and pointless rule - of course it is a responsibility of any player in any sport to make sure that he/she is not found at fault. The problem is that this rule is used to make sure that umpires cannot be made to adhere to the clearly stated rules. For instance, when someone like Ma Long asks what was wrong with my serve, the umpire simply can state "I was not satisfied that your toss was high enough or vertical enough". he doesn't even have to say "Your toss was not high enough" , it will be enough to say that "I was not 100% satisfied". There is absolutely no way to reply to such a claim. IMHO is absolutely unacceptable. Rules have to be not just clear but also with no subjectivity directly embedded in them, and they have to be easy to check and easy to prove. Especially at the high level matches which are videotaped, when such a controversy starts the umpire can simply take a quick look at the tape and change or explain his decision. Granted this cannot be abused - that's why (like in tennis) a player should be able to request such a video review perhaps no more than, say, two times per match. In any case, the current service rules are abominable and the possibility for abuse is huge (both by players and umpires).
Players know the ball has to go UP at least six inches from an open palm. Despite this, players continue to try and 'game' the system by tossing it backwards. I can only assume most of the people coming on here slating the umpires for trying to enforce this rule, do it themselves!
The player at around 5 : 40 is absolutely right. Umpires don't call most of the illegal services, so players cannot change their way of serving from a point to another. Also they are obviously going to argue with an umpire calling a serve that was legal two points ago.
@@svenpoletka5236 well yes, but if the umpire only sees something wrong once it's also his problem. You can't expect a player to just accept that his service is illegal, though illegal it may be, if the same umpire didn't say anything the first 20 times and all other umpire don't say anything either. Players always try to push the rules to get an advantage. You can't solve this issue with inconsistent umpires.
Most people here who against the umpire clearly doesn't know what is legal and illegal serve. People in my club who declare themselves as "good" player, majority of them doesn't even know how to server correctly. If one lazy umpire did not notice your illegal serve yesterday, it doesn't mean that it should be alright on the next day.
For me.. umpires see the fault of the player of their service.. but the problem is .. some of umpire cannot explain in properly in English. so the players cannot understand if why they are fault in their services.
You are not allowed to impart spin before you strike the ball on a serve. It is obvious this is done by inducing back spin by throwing the ball backwards! Is this difficult????
I think the rule is quite clear, you must not toss the ball towards your body, but only up. And if you watch these videos the judges are right most of cases. The problem is mostly players who can't adapt at all. They lose points instead.
On the above examples I see stubborn players, simply they are not willing to follow the instructions. They are clearly told what the problem is. They refuse it, they get angry, they have somebody to blame. Its pointless and they lose. If you play table-tennis have excellent nerves, and don't act like a bad defiant kid.
+telelaci2 It's hard to change serve instantly when you trained years and years and no one corrected you. I know from experience, luckily I was a beginner back then.
In the last match the German player is hiding the point of trajectory firstly by his head and hand, then the point of contact with his body. The umpire was right to call him up.
The problem is that they allowed fault serves in the first place. They should throw the ball straight up and then give it some margin of error. You can check that with camera and software.
I'm not a pro, only play against mates sometimes, but I know how to do legal serves and it honestly isn't that difficult. They are just trying to get an unfair advantage.
La jueza que amonesta a Ma Long es simplemente insoportable!! Los mejores jueces son los que no se notan, los protagonistas son los jugadores, no ellos.
That umpire on ma long vs maze smoking.... Regardless some of these serves are illegal, just that SO MANY ILLEGAL SERVES NOT CALLED! And when its called sometimes the service is legal, so we all dont get the referees...
the Rule clearly said "ball need to be toss 6 inch up the air and vertical." If it move little close to you, it is understandable, but these player clearly did it wrong. I am surprise that their coach don't fix this simple mistake.
The player serving illegally should fire their coach because you should play the way you practice. A good coach would solve this problem on the first day he's able to influence his player. Obviously Such's coach spent too much time watching the ladies play instead of doing his job.
I think the Referee's in this cases are mostly right. It is important for everyone (referee, players, coaches) to know the rules and to use them. Unfortunately not every referee is assertive to the rules, per example Dimitrij Ovtcharov. He is throwen up the Ball laterally upwards. Is that legal? Why never acts a referee this illegal service?
The rules are stupid. As long the ball touches the paddle behind the table, within the sides borders should be good. Just imagine if the tennis player can't server underhand or can't toss no higher than 10 feet.
1: You are supposed to throw the ball up straight, he kept throwing the ball up at an angle... Last one: video shows he did hit the ball very close to the body... Its the difference between street TT and fair international competitions. Kudos to these umpires who are brave enough to ensure a fair game.
This is really frustrating to watch. I've been in situations like this before with umpires doing this and there's nothing that distracts you as a player more
Rule is rule. Illegal services do ruin the games. Tossing the balls with curves are not acceptable according to the written regulations of ITTF. Old way to serving balls shall be punished and the umpires were doing fantastic job!!!
Ce sont les arbitres qui ont raison, je trouve absolument scandaleux qu'à ce niveau là ils ne sachent pas servir correctement, c'est honteux. Tous les arbitres devraient, à tout niveau, être strict comme cela au niveau des services. Surtout à haut niveau !
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The biggest problem then is umpires NOT calling out a huge amount of serve-toss violations; ergo the calls that do come as a result seem unfair, when other players seem to get away with it from other umpires. Certainly this is a major problem at club and local league level in the UK.
AGREED .....and very probably, the wrong kind of "character" being put into these "umpire" positions. Specifically, they might know the rules very clearly, but are AFRAID to either make the call and/or make the call CONSISTENTLY ......EVERY TIME a player commits the violation.
In the examples where the player commits the foul over and over ....this situation is dealing with a "CHARACTER" who will NOT make the necessary correction in order to play properly and legally. His "character" has him thinking "he is in the right and the umpire is in the wrong". I know many characters like this. It's not at all uncommon .....and I most certainly do NOT sympathize with them. Learn to serve properly or stay home.
.
I don't see this problem "solved" until cameras and AI replace human umpires. A computer umpire doesn't fear the displeasure of the bad server and certainly has the data to impartially call an illegal serve. Both sides could review the data and learn exactly what the server did wrong. Better living through technology!
I analysed these Services but first i want to point out two things from my experience as a player and umpire:
1. Doing a legal Serve is very easy.
Here are some examples of always perfectly legal serves
Fan Zhendong
Timo Boll
Vladimir Somsonov
Ovcharov
2. Judging whether a Service is illegal or not is very very difficult. In order to make sure that the server doesn't get an illegal advantage all you can do is to just stick to the rules. Which are:
Hold the ball in your open palm, start the Throw above table level and throw the Ball at least 16cm almost straight into the air. The ball must always be visible to the opponent.
The most important one: The player has to make sure that the serve looks CLEARLY legal so the umpire can judge.
The most seen illegal serve is the toss towards the body, which gives the server an unfiar advantage regarding spin and allows for striking closer to the body. It's correct to call it, but it these serves are so common that many umpires do not call these and people think it is legal to serve like that. But its not.
Now lets analyse the calls:
00:00-00:26
Clearly illegal
He throws the Ball 1. towards the body 2. not high enough. Player can get advantage of his illegal serve -> Umpire decided 100% correctly.
00:29-01:00 Ma Long
Not clearly legal, not clearly illegal
It looks like he doesn't throw the ball high enough, because his hand is still moving up a little bit after the ball leaved hit palm. It doesn't look like a 16cm throw.
- correct call but unnecessary strict because he did not get an adventage.
01:00-04:00
Toss towards body, but this can't really be judged from this camera angle. On the next 2 serves you can't see the toss. But the last one reveals the toss towards the body. -> Correct call. The serve he does is the reversed pendulum back-/sidespin and would be much more difficult for him if he would toss straight up. Player has to make sure that the serve looks clearly legal.
Maybe the first calls are wrong, but the consecutive calls show, that the player where not able to do his serve with a CLEARLY legal toss.
What the commentator mentioned about the difficulty of tossing straight because you have to also move the arm away is just bullshit. If you toss towards the body the arm gets in the way, but if you toss straight up the arm isn't a problem.
I think at the end there are some misscalls, but at this rate of illegal serves umpires judgment can of course get worse during the match. Now all the blame is on the umpire but the players should have done a clearly legal serve in the first place.
04:05
Tossing the ball over the table surface, that means the toss is not behind the table line.
I can't see the toss but the umpire could call a fault according to rules but he decides to call a let for not beeing sure wether it was a clearly legal serve and giving the Server a second chance to make a CLEARLY legal serve which he failed to do. Although i can't see the the toss the behavior of the umpire seems legit. This is the same umpire that calls the the fault at the beginning correctly.
05:09
The ball gets hidden by his face while falling.
This can be a advantage because it gets slightly more difficult for the opponent to judge the exactly timing of the service stroke. On the next serve the player wasn't able to do a CLEARLY legal serve, the ball seems to be less hidden by the face but ist not clear that it is out of the face completely. Than the player complaines too much about the call of his faults and gets a yellow card for that. Which is OK. Then the player is going on to complain the he is doing the same serve yesterday and umpire didn't call his serves before at the doubles und that he can not take the head out of the way and it is impossible for him to serve correctly and receives a yellow/red card for more complaining which is also OK. Later in the game Patrick baum switched to more Backhandserve which he was able to do legally. All he had to do is to not hide the ball with his head, which is easy. PS:I just watched the whole match and from the other side you can clearly see the the ball is very hidden so the calls are absolutely correct and the player gets an advantage of hiding the ball.
Again same umpire. This is an amazing umpire that he can see that. Somewhere in the comments someone complained especially on this umpire and that he should banned or something like that. But as i see it he is a good and fair umpire. Nothing wrong with him. he just sticks to the rules.
you are like a table tennis god or something
Ovcharov
's serves are not always legal his high throw tomahawk serve is never mostly vertical there is always a lot of horizontal movement. He uses this illegal serve a couple of times in almost every match.
th-cam.com/video/oHqSsGFCJOY/w-d-xo.html
skip to 2:32 to see an extremely illegal serve whereby the ball starts at the left side of the table but ends up at the right side by the time contact is made.
skip to 0:10 shows dima's illegal serve again.
Dima's other serves such as his normal high throw serve or his backhand serve is legal, but every time he uses his tomahawk serve he using a lot of horizontal movement..
Actually insane. Best comment I've seen in life.
Yes, rules are rules. Couldn't understand why people are blaming on the judge meanwhile they are not the one sitting there watching through their own eyes
Very nice comment, super corect. The angle which it can do horizontal is known, 15 degrees, most people serve with more.
Nowadays there are so many illegal service on a pro level
Artem Makogon I agree. I see bad serves all the time with no calls. At local clubs where I play its become so bad that no one knows how to throw a proper ball up anymore.
even the commentaters did not know the rules, mind you that is in line with most sports on TV.
some of my serves are illegal for sure. So are many of the players in my league. But umpires never call it!
And there are only like 3 rules to know in TT. I know them and folow them after one year playing. No excuse that Patrick did not understand the fault calls. He's a lefty, which means he has to know to be extra careful because of the angle.
Totally agree and when the empire starts to judge them as he has to do problems show up. that's the problem
The man with the mustach is in more than 3 video's
The player, as I know of, has been always serving NICELY LEGALLY is SAMSONOV. He is gentleman in table tennis.
Back before covering the serve with your arm or body was still legal, Samsonov always had good serves. Behind the table, open palm and high tosses. When the arm or body block was illegal, I personally thought Samsonov would have trouble adjusting since he previously used his body width to cover the ball. But lo and behold, we adjusted very well. Even in tv broadcast angles I could clearly see the ball and the initial contact with his racket. Really a good service example.👍👍👍
@2centavos Well for Calderano I'm not so sure. The rules state that the ball must be lying in an open, flat palm. With Calderano's serves, he sort of bends his hand into a U-shape, as if he was "scooping" the ball. He definitely tosses the ball up high and straight though, I really like his high toss serves
The main point on the flat hand is so a finger does add speed or power
It is a major problem that most referees don't do their job.
I was a Danish national-level referee in the 80ies.
I have known referees that never called a fault, regardless of how the serve was made.
It created a strange environment, with some players following serve rules and some not.
The Danish TT Association even advertised serve rules, like "Do you throw the ball at least 16 cm high when you serve?"
Because certainly the referees would not correct you.
I did and was thanked by some top level players who played in the German Bundesliga. And was disliked by others who "never had a problem with anyone else than me" (which would have been correct)
And this is what we see here: a result of poor refereeing _elsewhere_, with nobody trying to observe referees and assure standards, like it is done in football.
And so referees following the rules get into problems and it hurts the players too.
#2.06.02
The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards, without imparting spin, so that it rises at least 16cm after leaving the palm of the free hand and then falls without touching anything before being struck.
#2.06.04
From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by the server or his or her doubles partner or by anything they wear or carry.
#2.06.06
It is the responsibility of the player to serve so that the umpire or the assistant umpire can be satisfied that he or she complies with the requirements of the Laws, and either may decide that a service is incorrect.
- which means that the referees are mostly right.
My verdicts:
0:01 - fault, not near vertically ("NNV")
0:11 - fault, NNV
0:17 - fault, NNV
0:32 - OK
1:01.. - all faulty, NNV
3:29 - OK
3:36 - OK
4:24 - ?, not clearly not over the table
5:09 - fault, referee can not see the ball, and suspect violation of #2.06.04
5:23 - fault for the same reason, though service seems OK
...
sormu16 well said!
But I have question, why would Ma Long‘s serve be alright, if Such Bartosz‘ serves are not?
sormu16
Don’t mix up with umpires and referees they are both exist and carry different duties in the table tennis field.
Nice!
Why umpire suppose to see the ball?! It is enough that opponent to see
@@berateyn they have to be able to see to determine if the server met the requirements for a legal serve, though that requires them to be sitting on both sides of the table for left and right handed players.
ITTF needs to evaluate and grade the umpires' performance in each tournament. Some clearly should be suspended or disqualified.
Yes I agree. Some umpires are really stupid.
Also ball must be thrown from the palm of the hand, without imparting spin, from above the table, behind the end of the table and inside the sides of the table (and be hit in that same region) and thrown up within (45 degrees I think) and to the best of ability in opponents view at all times. In this video, I beleive the umpires were correct 90% of time, but due to camera angles, it's not always possible to confirm.
@Arkadi Danielyan the last guys head was not in the way of fall. You refer to the last scene which is from the opposite side of the referee calling it as a fault. If it is hidden by the head from that position it cannot be seen as hidden from the umpires position. This is stupid! I think no referee should call a service wrong. The players should complain if a service is wrong and then the umpire should be able to check. But not from the side, but from the opponents view! Such nonsense decisions. Just let them play.
@Arkadi Danielyan I didn't offend you personally so I don't understand why you have to. Maybe you should be ittf referee, so every game would be totally fair 😇
Most of these were good calls by the umpires...
Ca. 7:03
"Maybe im disabled i dont know"
Lul
Lol that umpire has something against Germans
Grumbel Bumbel Lol the serves were clearly correct
You know what makes it even funnier? He speaks perfect, fluent German so he could even be German himself. Of course he could come from Austria or Swiss too tho
Yeah, i thought the same
Grumbel Bumbel shut
Erik he was throwing the ball towards himself instead of straight up, which is illegal.
If the Umpire think that's illegal serve. He needs to see Lebesson's serves. This guy gets away with illegal serves. He often toss the ball under the table and his serving arm is moving towards his body while serving. He often flick the ball with his hand towards his body.
quickzilver3333 I played against Lebessson two years ago in a french tournament. At the end of the match, we spoke a little bit and he told me that he was actually hiding the ball with his head when he hits it. Nothing about what you said tho
Bastian Hood You said that was TWO YEARS AGO! I am talking about 2017 Tournaments that Lebesson participated. His serves are illegal and there were times that the Umpire warned him. Most of the time he gets away with his illegal serves.
looks like he found another way to Cheat.
quickzilver3333 Also, Timo Boll will sometimes serve a bit low. Same with otcharov sometimes too. Timo gets away with it ALL the time!
What about Ovcharov? It seems to me he throws the ball sideways (and towards himself), instead of straight up.
@Daniel Fisher Yeah maybe but these serves are not low, the problem is not that. How the fuk could be this serve 7:32 too low ?
It's the first time i see even the opponent of the player who kept getting called can't tolerate this XD
btw, very good sportsmanship for Such, same thing happen to Chen weixing or michael maze may caused a fight
The problem is, the players dont know rules of table tennis, thats really bad.Umpires did great job, if every umpire make like them, the serve will be ok and without problems.But players just trying how make serve illegal without consequence lost point from umpires.
I think most of the time the umpire was right, so I think the players should just switch to a safe serve, because it's really hard to win against umpires, and for sure, not during the match. I think players should be really responsible about respecting serving rule, as this may affect future of the game. In our days the ball services are very various and complicated, this is one of the causes why the rallies are so short, because the opponent can't really read them, this increasing the chances of the third ball, but when you are serving illegally, this is exponentially harder. I think every table tennis had this frustrating feeling when someone is serving illegally and you cannot read the serve properly, but because is just a simple non official competition without umpires you do not complain about that. I'm sure that pro players have this feeling too, but because of professional solidarity, they do not complain about that.
Why this may affect the future of the game? I think that ITTF may decide at one point that services are making the rallies shorter or boring, and may come with some new service constrains that will improve the game consistency but will reduce from services diversity. I personally consider that service diversity really make this game beautiful as it is really an unique signature for each player, so I really want to keep this diversity, but for that I think the coaches and players should be more responsible about the services trainings.
Wow, not even Fegerl, Gerell, Lebesson or Shibaev in this video.
The situation with serves at all levels of the game is a real mess. At the top level, many players are deliberately pushing as close to the line of what is allowed as they can, and that makes it very difficult for umpires. Some umpires will just turn a blind eye, others try to enforce and that leads to massive inconsistencies. It's not surprising that players who get away with dodgy serves for tournament after tournament are angry when one keen umpire suddenly starts calling them. Personally I feel for the umpires because you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. In my local league, in the lower divisions, nobody bothers about serving rules. Many players just walk up to the table and quickly smack the ball back in play before you are ready. Nobody wants to be the player / umpire who tries to enforce the rules, in case everyone else thinks you're a twat. Table tennis as a whole needs to get its shit together on this by demanding that anyone who plays competitively, whether local league or in top class tournaments, sticks to the rules and they should also insist that umpires enforce all the rules too. let's face it, it's not difficult for any player to toss the ball straight up from an open palm six inches behind the table and then hit it when it comes back down. If you can't do that, you should probably give up the game and take up gardening instead!
This is a very accurate assessment of the serves in table tennis. The rules need tightening up to make them easier to apply. Many pros and top players leave their arm removal until too late which is illegal, most are borderline which makes it hard to judge accurately.
The problem is that almost all players have illegal serves now. No one wants to be the umpire who calls "fault" all the time, also because in some cases the match could become a farce like that with Such against Gardos, with I don't know how many faults.
If ITTF really started to enforce strict rules this wouldn't happen.
100% rooting for the referees: not their fault that ball-less other referees don't enforce the rules. As per some players, if they can't adapt their serves to make it right, stop competing and go back to the practice room. Ling Ling TT 40 hours!
That one umpire must have a really shitty life lol
Ma Long's fault call was a shake my head moment. Then Ma Long look totally astonished and on his face you could almost hearing him saying "what the hell are you talking about you foolish umpire". 😆
0:51 the umpire calls ma long zhang jike😂
adimo 19 she said 15 centimeter in a bad accent
@@dhrlfska90 no she really said zhang jike
Is the service umpire same in all the tournaments?
What is more stupid? Calling a fault on a non-vertical toss or continuing to serve the exact same way over and over without change?
BTW this exists in other sports too. In football (soccer), at any corner kick, you can close your eyes and call fault, because the defenders are hanging onto the arms and legs of the attackers. But referees try not to be too strict and make a best guess at what will be acceptable by the standards the players have created. Because you can't hold the opponents arm, or any body part. You can stand in their way, use your arms to protect yourself against an incoming opponent, but you can't wrap your arms around them. But this happens all the time, every match every corner kick.
In tennis, players like Nadal or Djokovic are consistently violating the rule of smooth play, bouncing the ball a million times before serving, or doing all kinds of nervous tricks while the opponent is waiting to serve. Umpires hardly ever interfere, because the players have been allowed to set the standards.
They should have a 3rd umpire like cricket and rugby which can be evaluated if the umpire calls fault. Obviously expensive and would only be used in majors.
Having a little equipment that release the ball from 16 cm above the tabble can easily make these referees happy
The umpire in Such - Gardos (F. Brunssen) is spot on in essentially all decisions.
The ball toss rule is regularly violated by the players, and the governing body should either enforce the rule or get rid of it. These serves are all legitimate faults.
Ma Longs one in the second clip was literally nothing.
if you interpret rule 2. 06. 02 "... project the ball near vertically upwards...." then both of them are doing foul serves. they are intentionally throwing the ball at an angle towards their paddles and not as vertically as possible. maybe, it's the reason why the umpire was fouling them each time. if mizutani or samsonov or even lowly amateurs serve well following this rule, why can't they. they are supposed to be pros.
Dude the rule say near vertically if samsonov throw vertically according to the rules it have to be fault because it isn t near vertically .
where are those umpires when Par Gerell was playing xD
The MAIN problem is that the serve rules are extremely subjective. All rules are somewhat subjective because they will be interpreted by a human being (umpire) during the match - but that is a given. But here we have more than that - the rule 2.6.6 specifically states that the server has to satisfy the umpires which sounds ridiculous because it is absolutely unnecessary and pointless rule - of course it is a responsibility of any player in any sport to make sure that he/she is not found at fault. The problem is that this rule is used to make sure that umpires cannot be made to adhere to the clearly stated rules. For instance, when someone like Ma Long asks what was wrong with my serve, the umpire simply can state "I was not satisfied that your toss was high enough or vertical enough". he doesn't even have to say "Your toss was not high enough" , it will be enough to say that "I was not 100% satisfied". There is absolutely no way to reply to such a claim. IMHO is absolutely unacceptable. Rules have to be not just clear but also with no subjectivity directly embedded in them, and they have to be easy to check and easy to prove. Especially at the high level matches which are videotaped, when such a controversy starts the umpire can simply take a quick look at the tape and change or explain his decision. Granted this cannot be abused - that's why (like in tennis) a player should be able to request such a video review perhaps no more than, say, two times per match. In any case, the current service rules are abominable and the possibility for abuse is huge (both by players and umpires).
Players know the ball has to go UP at least six inches from an open palm. Despite this, players continue to try and 'game' the system by tossing it backwards. I can only assume most of the people coming on here slating the umpires for trying to enforce this rule, do it themselves!
its not really that subjective because almost everyone is basically doing an illegal serves, its just these umpires are a bit stupid and blind.
Calling fault service in pro game is similar with calling traveling in NBA, usually won't be called easily unless you do it super obviously
The empires were correct. All balls were thrown sideward.
铁笔骂谎言 u stupid, tht wht u are.. this explains tht u've never played tt
Some serves were illegal but not all!
There are so many players doing illegal serves, it is necessary to be stricter, imho. But those are mostly nitpicking.
The player at around 5 : 40 is absolutely right. Umpires don't call most of the illegal services, so players cannot change their way of serving from a point to another. Also they are obviously going to argue with an umpire calling a serve that was legal two points ago.
Ridiculous. The umpire can only call the illegal serves they see for certain, and every time the umpire was absolutely correct.
@@svenpoletka5236 well yes, but if the umpire only sees something wrong once it's also his problem. You can't expect a player to just accept that his service is illegal, though illegal it may be, if the same umpire didn't say anything the first 20 times and all other umpire don't say anything either.
Players always try to push the rules to get an advantage. You can't solve this issue with inconsistent umpires.
@@thomaslequesne5475 The players absolutely know they are serving illegally, so yes they have already accpeted that.
Such Bartosz.... I don't know what to say... Just respect to you and the sportsmanship spirit you have🙌🙌🙌👍👍
I am so confused. I am just starting to play. So, do we have to toss straight upwards or?? Because these guys throws are like parabolic.
Most people here who against the umpire clearly doesn't know what is legal and illegal serve. People in my club who declare themselves as "good" player, majority of them doesn't even know how to server correctly. If one lazy umpire did not notice your illegal serve yesterday, it doesn't mean that it should be alright on the next day.
For me.. umpires see the fault of the player of their service.. but the problem is .. some of umpire cannot explain in properly in English. so the players cannot understand if why they are fault in their services.
Read the rules.. must be thrown vertically not back or side. As a qualified umpire allow a 15% acceptable limit .. roughly 4 up to one back.
You are not allowed to impart spin before you strike the ball on a serve. It is obvious this is done by inducing back spin by throwing the ball backwards! Is this difficult????
The problem is the rule absolutely not clear
I think the rule is quite clear, you must not toss the ball towards your body, but only up. And if you watch these videos the judges are right most of cases. The problem is mostly players who can't adapt at all. They lose points instead.
To be honest its really hard to make a clear rule of this. Its not black and white. Hard to judge and be consequent.
On the above examples I see stubborn players, simply they are not willing to follow the instructions. They are clearly told what the problem is. They refuse it, they get angry, they have somebody to blame. Its pointless and they lose. If you play table-tennis have excellent nerves, and don't act like a bad defiant kid.
+telelaci2 It's hard to change serve instantly when you trained years and years and no one corrected you. I know from experience, luckily I was a beginner back then.
telelaci2
No, its not clear at all.
Which angle is fine ?
The rule does not specify the angle
After all the years i've played i never asked, why won't they get a warning first?
The second one was not a fault and sometimes the umpires abuse their power and do not get fined for wrong calls or in favor of a certain player
In the last match the German player is hiding the point of trajectory firstly by his head and hand, then the point of contact with his body. The umpire was right to call him up.
i prob shud have learned the rules of table tennis serving prior to watching this
The problem is that they allowed fault serves in the first place. They should throw the ball straight up and then give it some margin of error. You can check that with camera and software.
Paturo po kung ano mga tawag sa faults. Pang finals lang po😁
Ding Ning was vulnerable her serves in the 2012 Olympics final
I'm not a pro, only play against mates sometimes, but I know how to do legal serves and it honestly isn't that difficult. They are just trying to get an unfair advantage.
La jueza que amonesta a Ma Long es simplemente insoportable!! Los mejores jueces son los que no se notan, los protagonistas son los jugadores, no ellos.
The players are in the wrong. They are not throwing the ball vertically in the air.
The problem is this rule is not enforced 99% of the time, so when it is enforced, players become confused as to why it is suddenly enforced.
Agree
They either need to call every match like this or stop doing this.
That umpire on ma long vs maze smoking.... Regardless some of these serves are illegal, just that SO MANY ILLEGAL SERVES NOT CALLED! And when its called sometimes the service is legal, so we all dont get the referees...
There should have a complaint system for the players.
The commentator is wrong. It is not about the angle, the rule stipulates the player cannot toss the ball towards his own body!
4:22どこかでお会いしましたか？
0:22ああ、あなたか。
5:14またお会いしましたね。
インパクトの瞬間は隠れてないのに。
but if u throw it out of the table it is a false serv isn't it?
2:18 Schlager and Weixing lol
Elekris yeah. The pair that can’t be fucked with. 😂
the Rule clearly said "ball need to be toss 6 inch up the air and vertical." If it move little close to you, it is understandable, but these player clearly did it wrong. I am surprise that their coach don't fix this simple mistake.
The ball should go vertical not from the hand back to the player. BUT they all do it . All of them..
Malong's serve is mostly acceptable.
could watch this 5 hours :D
Umpires technically correct
@2:46 that IS NOT acceptable! You'd think the player would just throw the ball straight up..? But No, he's being hard headed and ignorant lol
让人无法接受的是，作为到了马龙那个层次的选手，发球动作一定是固定的，可是为什么那个裁判在之前没有判罚，要到了10平的时候恶意的去干扰选手?真的是公正裁判吗？只裁判严格的话，全世界所有的选手都有后抛嫌疑。别说波尔，波尔逆旋转发球也有后抛
The player serving illegally should fire their coach because you should play the way you practice. A good coach would solve this problem on the first day he's able to influence his player. Obviously Such's coach spent too much time watching the ladies play instead of doing his job.
Best demostration how can an umpire ruin a game
Is 0'23 and 4'30 the same person? What's the umpire's name?
They should learn from Samsonov 👏👏👏 😁 😩😧☺
what was wrong about the last one???
GrimiMeinFreund 97 his head is blocking the ball on the toss. The ball should be visible at all times.
3:22 why is he giving the same serve and losing points
If we would let robots with cameras decide to judge the rules, we would lose about 70% to 85% of all actual 'pro players' in one season.
I think the Referee's in this cases are mostly right. It is important for everyone (referee, players, coaches) to know the rules and to use them. Unfortunately not every referee is assertive to the rules, per example Dimitrij Ovtcharov. He is throwen up the Ball laterally upwards. Is that legal? Why never acts a referee this illegal service?
The rules are stupid. As long the ball touches the paddle behind the table, within the sides borders should be good. Just imagine if the tennis player can't server underhand or can't toss no higher than 10 feet.
A few of those are indeed fault serves, but the majority of them are just umpires abusing their power.
It’s all the same umpire except 1
Yes the nigerian referee was wrong and was actually fired according to the news in google.
"wait I don't think that was a fault..."
"Nope, I will not hear what you say, at all, even if you might be right, play"
what the fuck was wrong with Ma Long's serve?
Its all the same unpire omg
審判ドイツと馬龍に対してのフォルトの基準おかしいだろ
強いからって審判が意地悪しちゃだめだろ
That woman umpire is just pure garbage
1: You are supposed to throw the ball up straight, he kept throwing the ball up at an angle...
Last one: video shows he did hit the ball very close to the body... Its the difference between street TT and fair international competitions. Kudos to these umpires who are brave enough to ensure a fair game.
It's allowed to have a very small angle. "Nearly vertical" is the wording in the rule. Just saying.
Well the guy did throw the ball inward. It is very clear. But everybody does it.
Il y a des moments ou les arbitres exagèrent honèttement à ce moment la c'est match annulé ou changement d'arbitre enfin hein
Понравился темнокожий спортсмен на экране
7:33 lol look at the far right
My gosh the ref at 0:49 hates ma long for some reason.
FAULT !!
This is really frustrating to watch. I've been in situations like this before with umpires doing this and there's nothing that distracts you as a player more
then learn to serve legally
the umpires English is so unclear, I get that ma long didn't throw high enough but like damn, ma long must have a hard time understanding that English
They figure it out how to make it more boring.
Up za serfff 😂😂 Arab are funny
It seems that no services are illegal.. suck umpire ruins the game. And break the players rhythm. WTF....
lmao @ 7:36 dudes in the back
Rule is rule. Illegal services do ruin the games. Tossing the balls with curves are not acceptable according to the written regulations of ITTF. Old way to serving balls shall be punished and the umpires were doing fantastic job!!!
Ce sont les arbitres qui ont raison, je trouve absolument scandaleux qu'à ce niveau là ils ne sachent pas servir correctement, c'est honteux. Tous les arbitres devraient, à tout niveau, être strict comme cela au niveau des services. Surtout à haut niveau !
Sportifitas wasit dan pemain diluar negeri sungguh luar biasa
Guard annoying another guard at 7:32 - 7:35 :D
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