Mormon Doctrine is UNCHANGING?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 พ.ย. 2024
- A response to the video "What is Doctrine? - Now You Know" which seeks to put forth the narrative of the LDS church around Doctrine within the LDS Paradigm.
Video Sources:
Original Video - What is Doctrine?
• What is Doctrine? | No...
1949 First Presidency Statement
archive.org/st...
2 Nephi 5:21
www.churchofje...
Race and the Priesthood Gospel Topic Essay
www.churchofje...
1890 Polygamy Manifesto
www.churchofje...
The original video is included under 'Fair Use' law for the purpose of critique.
#MormonDoctrine #Mormon #FactChecking
I love the idea of preloading when "asking with faith." I asked my son at age of 8 if he prayed to know if the church is true. His response was, "How can I know if I get the right answer when I want it to be true?" Unfortunately at that time I did not have the right answer for him. He understood then the idea of preloading and how it can influence the results Even if his father did not. If only more people could see this so young...
Thanks again for your videos.
That’s a smart son you got there. Hopefully you didn’t stay in the church long enough for religion to quell his early critical thinking skills.
@@jaromchristensen5598 we are all out now and he continues to be a free thinker and now the other 2 get to think for themselves also. Life is good.
Wow I wish I had developed those skills when young!
That’s an intelligent little being you have there! Last thing we should be doing as parents are making decisions for our kids that will have further consequences which cause them internal conflicts progressing into adulthood.
Examples from Douglas Stilgoe:
1. The church has $150B of investements. Douglas assumes leaders of the church are greedy.
2. The church keeps on building temples: Douglas assigns the motive of Pres. Nelson building his legacy.
3. The church still has cases of abuse against children: Douglas assigns that the church doesn't care about children and ignores the laws of the lands and the complexity of the world we live in.
4. Joseph Smith married a 14 year old girl: Douglas assumes JS was a pedophile with no evidence that their was any sexual relationship.
5. Douglas has his records removed from the church. Douglas blames everyone else except himself.
Almost every video Douglas has made assigns negative motives and reasons to all things LDS church. He has tons more of takes on the LDS church. In almost every case he assigns fairly negative motives as well as a lot of his followers. Watch his videos and take notes. You will see how twisted his viewpoints are.
You provide me with such clarity of thought as to why I left the church 5 years ago. Sometimes I get pummeled by people saying that I’m being deceived by Satan and all those apostates out there. But then I listen to you and I’m clear again. Thank you, Nemo. 💗
You're very welcome!
I agree with this so much
Amen to Barb.....
Interesting 🤨 I had never thought of that before: asking in faith that you’ll get an answer and having enough humility to be wrong are in contradiction to each other
Wow, the gaslighting is strong in this one!
Nemo, you always disect this stuff in such simple and clear ways. So appreciated!!👏
It's a whole different church than it was 50 years ago, when I was a kid. I'm glad I jumped ship 20 years ago
Once upon a time I was called as a primary teacher and one of the rules they were very emphatic about was not using cartoon looking figures to represent Jesus. When I asked why they said it takes away from his reality and we want children to view him as real. That made sense to me. It's funny to see they don't care about that anymore.
Liesel Jones they care more about the vast amount of members they are losing! I think they will try anything at this point, hence the Kwaku videos exist!
2 years late but
Some still believe that.
Mainly older people in our ward say that.
My grandma got a bunch of bracelets and she wanted to give them away. So I told her " Why not give them out to the primary kids? "
She said: " No, because it will take away the spiritual aspect! "
How? If you give them out freely then that way it's just giving them as a gift. If it were something spiritual it'd be like: " If you read your scriptures I'll give you a bracelet! "
I truly didn't see the issue with that..
That was your primary teachers opinion. Not doctrine, not policy, just opinion. So who doesn't care about that anymore and did they care about it before?
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Examples from Douglas Stilgoe:
1. The church has $150B of investements. Douglas assumes leaders of the church are greedy.
2. The church keeps on building temples: Douglas assigns the motive of Pres. Nelson building his legacy.
3. The church still has cases of abuse against children: Douglas assigns that the church doesn't care about children and ignores the laws of the lands and the complexity of the world we live in.
4. Joseph Smith married a 14 year old girl: Douglas assumes JS was a pedophile with no evidence that their was any sexual relationship.
5. Douglas has his records removed from the church. Douglas blames everyone else except himself.
Almost every video Douglas has made assigns negative motives and reasons to all things LDS church. He has tons more of takes on the LDS church. In almost every case he assigns fairly negative motives as well as a lot of his followers. Watch his videos and take notes. You will see how twisted his viewpoints are.
I've been surprised how much Church doctrine has changed in my lifetime which is noteworthy considering how the leaders taught when I was young that it wouldn't. They dug their own grave.
Hi, have you considered fact checking some of the videos in the Faith and Beliefs series by Saints Unscripted?
I hadn’t until now, let me have a look!
Great points Nemo. Thank you for your time to shine the truth on this gaslighting video!
My pleasure, thanks for watching!
So when a prophet says it, it's doctrine; unless it's not and it's changed later.
Seems legit
Amazing how today's policies were once doctrines when convenient. I Apllying your logic to these is amazing also because Mormons are taught What to think now How to think. and Very helpful. I think keep them coming to the in forwarding them to my friends.
Richard R kein Problem! Danke schön!
Love your videos Nemo! Facts truth and integrity. God bless you.
2:18 _"As we grow in obedience and understanding, our understanding of Christ and his doctrine will change."_
Wooooooww! That was a lawyer's statement right there.
In other words, it could be the case that God has revealed a doctrine that the entire church doesn't understand, including the brethren, but they all will at some point in the future.
This is a very convoluted way of throwing their own god under the bus. If it's possible for the church, especially his own servants the prophets, to not understand a point of revealed doctrine correctly, but then do at a later point in time, that is god's fault for not clarifying it. He is responsible for the membership's _mis-_obedience of his law, which essentially nullifies the atonement.
If an omnipotent god can't reveal a doctrine correctly, that is completely that god's fault if his believers do not follow that doctrine correctly.
It would seem that if God never changes, then it his Apostles and Prophets who have spent all their lives changing and creating confusion in the church. At least according to church history.
It would sure seem that way, and it's not a good look!
Fantastic!
Thank you! Cheers!
Gaslighting makes me feel warm and fuzzy. Or fizzy? 🤔 is that the holie ghost
1:00 _"One core piece of doctrine is..."_ ...the belief that there is something wrong with you and this problem keeps you from getting into the more favorable position in the afterlife. And the only way to get rid of that problem is through adopting our beliefs and practices.
Relevance fabrication.
This was great. “Doctrine” is impossible to agree on. You can read that polygamy is wrong in the BoM, but then in D&C 132 🤷🏼♂️
YOU ARE SO TWISTED, SO INTELLECTUALLY SLOTHFUL, AND SO INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST AS WELL. DO YOU EVEN KNOW HOW TO READ?? STOP WASTING OUR TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If this is the best Brigham Young’s got, I fear for Mormonism’s future.
So now you know. ~Nemo
Brigham Young taught (and said that anything he said was doctrine) that earthly polygamy was necessary for salvation and exaltation. No one is saying that now; in fact, there was a later "revelation" that earthly polygamy was not to be practiced by Mormons any longer.
They don't seem to distinguish between eternal truths which are essentially unchanging and temporary provisional rules of discipline and practice, nor between the unchanging basic doctrine and a development of ways of understanding it better and making application in new situations. That is the approach of mainline Christian churches. I see in the LDS following of the prophet of the day the same kind of dilemma faced by modern Roman Catholics, when 20th and 21st century popes are radically departing from long established norms. As an outsider who looked into the LDS I concluded that there is doctrinal confusion, chiefly in the matter of the developments of the understanding of the nature of God, following the Book of Abraham, King Follett discourse and Brigham Young's Adam- God theories. I do not confront my LDS friends on these issues, but have had occasion to question visiting elders and sister missionaries a little. I find there is a certain amount of agnosticism on the God question. It is that aspect of the theology that I suppose would be the most challenging. It touches on many issues that were actually resolved by the ancient churches in their creeds. I think you were a little unfair on the obedience as expression of love question. It is standard Christian teaching that if we love Jesus we will keep His words and obey His commandments, and that God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him. The references are in St John's Gospel and the Book of Acts in the Bible.
Examples from Douglas Stilgoe:
1. The church has $150B of investements. Douglas assumes leaders of the church are greedy.
2. The church keeps on building temples: Douglas assigns the motive of Pres. Nelson building his legacy.
3. The church still has cases of abuse against children: Douglas assigns that the church doesn't care about children and ignores the laws of the lands and the complexity of the world we live in.
4. Joseph Smith married a 14 year old girl: Douglas assumes JS was a pedophile with no evidence that their was any sexual relationship.
5. Douglas has his records removed from the church. Douglas blames everyone else except himself.
Almost every video Douglas has made assigns negative motives and reasons to all things LDS church. He has tons more of takes on the LDS church. In almost every case he assigns fairly negative motives as well as a lot of his followers. Watch his videos and take notes. You will see how twisted his viewpoints are.
7:09 Yeah. That's an interesting statement. God will reveal to you not IF a prophet is teaching true doctrine, but THAT he is teaching true doctrine.
Foregone conclusion much?!
1:51 So when it comes to showing love and/or respect for someone else, we often do things that will make the other person happy. We may feel motivated to find out their needs or concerns and work toward fulfilling those. But god has no needs. And according to LDS doctrine his only concern (or at least primary concern) is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man". So to view obedience as a demonstration of love doesn't seem to align with this kind of motive.
God's primary concern is us, so for us to show selfless concern for god, we have to obey his commandments. But obey them, not for any benefit they give us, but because we're trying to have selfless, altruistic concern for god's concern, because we love him.
Yeah, it doesn't really fit. And it's certainly not how the typical pew-sitting church member views obedience. I'd say it's actually viewed in a more self centered way. Members are inundated with promised blessing for every single thing that's asked of them.
"If you help this family move into their house you'll get blessings."
"If you pay your tithing you'll be blessed."
"If you pray and read your scriptures every morning before school or work, you'll be blessed."
"If you come early to help set up chairs for stake conference you'll get additional blessings on top of having attended said conference!"
There is so much operant conditioning woven into the LDS gospel lifestyle!
Even in the Book of Mormon, one of the primary messages can be clearly seen in 2 Nephi 4: 4 _"For the Lord God hath said that: Inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments ye shall prosper in the land; and inasmuch as ye will not keep my commandments ye shall be cut off from my presence."_
The carrot of 'blessings' and the stick of 'cursing' (or usually a withdrawl of the spirit) I find to be a very common mindset in the church.
edit: Wow. I wrote this whole comment without watching the next few seconds of the video. But my comment still applies. Members are so focused on blessings and the idea of obedience out of love is more of an argument to excuse the less virtuous incentives and deterrents that actually operate in members' lives.
edit2: Like seriously. If you're trying to show selfless love to god, why should they even be called blessings? It sounds like an enticement. They should just be seen as the by-products of one's obedience. Or actually, you could argue that the better test of one's loyalty to god and trust in him is through obedience _without_ knowledge of any rewards. But I have a sneaking suspicion that the promise of an eternal life in a heaven is one of religion's biggest bargaining chips.
To love because you love. Nothing else. To love in hopes of reward is not love. To act because of commandment, is not love. To believe because you WANT to believe is not belief. To accept something without understanding the consequences puts you at a disadvantage. Members have allowed the “church” to take their agency, power, identity, heart and mind.
For any man to promise a better life after death under conditions they “say” God has commanded is a con. People have NO POWER to promise something they cannot give. Why do we give away our power? Why do we believe them? Oh we like sheep! Our shepherd isn’t Jesus Christ. We are following the wolves.
The church video is misleading at 0:43 because it shows a woman standing next to presumably Moses and other prophetic figures. No woman has ever served as prophet or in any position of church leadership where she could create doctrine.
Great spot, though I think that image represents god's children, rather than prophets specifically, if you go by the narration.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON I understand your point. I still think the figures appear to be prophetic based on their appearance. One issue I have with these videos is they use vague cartoons to lessen the jarring nature of the message. For example, on my mission most people would grasp the idea of a living prophet but would be disappointed when I showed them a picture of President Monson because he was so ordinary. The concept is believable however the reality is not. Videos showing cartoon figures highlight the concept while ignoring the reality, thus misleading potential investigators. The church does the same with the seer stone translation video using these same cartoons.
Josh Longi that’s a really good point, this cartoon style video avoids having to face the reality of what the message means. I’m planning to cover the seer stone video soon, and I’m sure if people actually saw a man putting his head in a hat, it would be more jarring!
I prayed with a sincere heart and felt deeply that all religion is antithetical to spirituality, especially Mormonism.
If you want some low hanging fruit, you can look at anything by Rod Meldrum. There were some of his videos on Netflix for a while.
Could you make a video on the most logical evidence of the divine?
00:51 Doctrine goes across generations - as they show clip art that distinctly implies ancient people. It's the small details isn't it?
cool
Gaslighting for sure. One thing I question about these changing doctrines is that God doesn’t change his mind. If it’s Gods true church then why do they change things?
Same yesterday today and forever, and all that!
I like this definition better: "Doctrine is what God reveals to His prophets." They should have stuck with that and then added "But not everything a prophet says is doctrinal. Here's how we believe you can know whether what a prophet teaches is doctrinal: Study the scriptures and relevant works and prayerfully ponder whether the teaching makes sense in light of what you read."
"God Never Changes," Bwuah ha ha! Except when he does change, like Black and the Priesthood, or Interractial marriage, or children of lgbt, or polygamy or any other time his "doctrine" conflicts with the world's view of things.
Nemo, can you please address how to answer when someone says “but I stood in the sacred grove and the spirit told me it was where Joseph saw God”.
A side bar: “RoughStone Rolling” by Richard Bushman is the best, most documented biography of Joseph Smith. I’m deeply studying his life and doctrine now that I m retired from Church and can really learn truth about it.
I worked in surgery for 35 years and then traveled the US I never saw so many obese LDS people. We were inundated with stomachs stapling surgeons due to the high volume of $$$$ fat people.
According to President Hinkley the n the 1978 is interview with Larry King, Plural Marriage is not doctrine. But it was taught to be doctrine Joseph Smith and Brigham You by and the s still be not the Doctrine and Covenants which n section 132….so Is Doctrine changeable or not? It f so does it change according to society or the whims of the Prophet ?
Blood Atonement? Native Americans are Lamanites and from Jewish descent
Doctrine is simply the teachings of a church. That is why policy and doctrine really are the same thing and they change over time.
Exactly, the differentiation between policy and doctrine has always been a ridiculous excuse! That and Elder Oaks said we can’t distinguish between policy and doctrine in a church which believes in continuing revelation.
Doctrine never changes and is applicable to all at any time of history. What about poligamy?
I remember that when King David sinned with Bathsheba, the prophet called him to repentance. Unlike today, when leaders and kings sin, in Bible times, leaders repented and then God punished them for their sins, because they were the leader of God’s nation and an example to everyone. No leader was perfect, but they did repent. But… the prophets never lied or made prophetic mistakes in the Bible. The Bible tells us to test prophets and if they predict something that does not come true they are a false prophet.
The Mormon prophets should repent of their misuse of church finances, but which prophet is going to tell them to do that?
If TCOJCOLDS wants to survive they will need to renounce the diety of Joseph Smith and it's religion, embrace traditional Christianity and receive Jesus into their hearts.
Jesus said "if ye love me, keep my commandments". SO HOW DOES NEMO'S ASSERTION SQUARE WITH WHAT DIRECTLY CAME FROM CHRIST'S MOUTH?????
NEMO'S ASSERTION IS 180 DEGREES OUT OF PHASE WITH CHRIST'S TEACHING.
This is why you have mormon fundamentalist In Utah.. that spreads.
The doctrines are all founded on Jesus Christ. Faith is Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel. Repentance is the second principle of the gospel.
Faith is rumors and accusations is the first principle of apostasy. Rejection of repentance is the second principle of apostasy.
Why are you still in the church? Oh, and I think that a lot of the statements that you criticize could technically be explained away by the church from their point of view. They're deceptive because they allude to something while actually saying something else. For example, the whole "word of God is mightier than the sword bit" they probably say that only applies to one's conversion to the "true" god. Of course that has its own issues.
That's a very tricky question! I suppose the simplest answer is that we should "lift where we stand". I'm stood in the church, and with it crumbling down around me I've decided to stay and help, not that they appreciate my help!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON but like personally, when you go through the temple or take the sacrament or do anything to participate in the church, what does it mean to you?
@@NEMOTHEMORMON when you become big enough to be a negative lnflueance on the church: they will call on you, just like John D.