I learned about the seer stone in his hat this past summer. I felt betrayed when I discovered all I had been taught was a lie. Just makes me sick to know all the time and money I gave up to a Church of lies.
Me too... Still technically in..I'll never voluntary remove my name as I spent too much time and money getting temple ordinances done.. Maybe sounds silly, but that's how I feel.. it's just two years ago that all this new info came to my knowledge. Besides, not sure want to restart at another church at this point..
I am 65. Yea, WTH!! My treck started 3 months ago. I am still in the anger stage. Why the lies? I’ve been watching Nemo, John Delin and BYP to get me through…also Felf on the Shelf for comic relief.. Reading Rough Stone Rolling and Lectures on Faith, too. Thanks to all of you.
@@patricianoel7782 ironically leaving the church is everything they warned you it would be but it’s still better. The truth is always better. I served from 06-08 in Montana.
I found out about the rock in the hat a year and a half ago. I am now out of the church but it continues to torment me. I’m now in a mixed faith marriage and being scrutinized by my family. Never understood why exmormons we often quite angry, now I know.
Great job as always. Because you asked: I learned about the rock-in-hat on my mission in the 1990's and was told, in no uncertain terms, it was anti-mormon propaganda. The admission that the story was true two decades later wasn't the worst part. The fact the church had, in its possession, the stone wasn't the worst part. For me, the worst part was when apologetics started to claim that they had ALWAYS taught the rock in the hat. I tend to think Orwell references are overused, but to me, this is being told we were always at war with Eastasia.
@radiofreeutah5328, The “Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith” manual quotes Joseph as claiming it was the Urim & Thummim that helped him translate the plates…. Something fishy is going on!
I first heard about this while on my mission in 1997. I remember an atheist gentleman talking about it on his doorstep. I told him he was being given bad information to keep him from the truth. About 7 year’s ago I found out he had the truth!
I don’t remember er details. I just remember people bible thumping with us and trashing Joseph. I’m assuming whatever they were telling me was truth. I told them polygamy was necessary for the woman who lost husbands due to persecution. Cause I was taught that. Lies
I was 46 when I found out about the rock and the hat, polygamy, polyandry, Book of Abraham issues, etc. Never knew about the gospel essays till late 2018. So upsetting to realize that we were all lied to. I hope the current missionaries are teaching the truth and not the lies I was told in my late teens!
Hello, I just discovered your channel a few days ago and I absolutely love it. I am a former member living in the United States in southwest Virginia. I didn’t discover that Joseph Smith used a rock in a hat until I was about 17 and I saw a South Park episode making fun of the translation story. My family history can be traced back to the founder of primary, Aurelia Rogers. It’s quite crazy hoe little I still knew growing up.
I was 42 when I learned about the rock in the hat. I was born in the church, served a mission to Hong Kong and was active my entire life up to age 42. I had already decided to stop going to church over personal issues with the Book of Mormon and discovered the rock in the hat in the CES letter. I decided to ask all of my immediate family and anybody I knew within the church about how the book of Mormon was translated. Not a single person mentioned a rock and a hat, every one of them talked about the U&T and the golden plates. It isn't that a rock and a hat is any less believable than reading glasses from God and golden plates, it's that the church actively suppressed the information out of likely embarrassment. When the leaders of the church can't follow one of the basic tenets of the religion, honesty in your dealings with your fellow man, they cannot be trusted to be God's mouthpiece.
Damn right! The lack of honesty among the church leaders precludes them from being gods mouth piece in my eyes! Because it’s wilful, intentional, and harmful!
@@richardholmes7199 how do you research something that you didn't know existed? I've done plenty of research since and it is clear that the church has lied over and over again. My research has also clearly shown JS to be a fraud.
@@derralhawthorne4616 ''I've done plenty of research since and it is clear that the church has lied over and over again.'' Present the things that the church has lied about.
@@derralhawthorne4616 ''My research has also clearly shown JS to be a fraud.'' Expand on the things proving Joseph Smith to be a fraud. Will be standing by.
My dear friend just gifted me a copy of the seer stone as it was now shown to the membership. He accurately painted a regular stone like the “special, authentic stone” then put a small HodPoged picture of Joseph Smith!!! It’s fantastic! Best gift ever! Right up there with Kevin, the taint. 😂🎉❤
My LDS husband didn’t know about the seer stone until a few weeks ago after I read the Gospel Topics Essay on the subject. He served a full mission, got perfect attendance all four years of seminary and has been a member for 31 years... In the Gospel Topics Essay, the Church says the terms ‘urim & thummim’ and ‘seer stone’ are used interchangeably, which seems so wrong.
That’s because it is wrong! It’s crazy that members are still discovering the most basic facts around the origin of their own religion! Thanks for sharing!
Yes when you force the comparison of the Mormon Urim and thummim to the Old Testament Urim and thummim in either appearance or use, they have nothing in common. In fact the term Urim and thummim was not used until 1832! And not in scripture until 1835!
@@richardholmes7199 JS used the seer stone for his treasure seeking endeavors. Which resulted in his taking money from folks without actually finding treasure. Not a good look. Why were the urim and thummim hidden with the golden plates if he was meant to use the seer stone to translate the plates? The fact that the Church uses the terms ‘urim and thummim’ and ‘seer stone’ interchangeably while they are not even close to being the same object is wrong & dishonest. Clearly gives people a false impression. I suppose if someone ultimately believes JS translated the golden plates through revelation, his using the seer stone would seem like a moot point. The fact that he never looked at the plates while translating them also wouldn’t matter. You’re free to believe however you choose, but it is worth exploring from an objective perspective at some point.
@@rachelitobandito ''You're free to believe however you choose, but it is worth exploring from an objective perspective at some point.'' You have had more than the needed amount of time to explore from an objective perspective. As one cannot investigate Mormonism (Jesus Christ) thoroughly, then turn around and say that the church isn't true to begin with.
My mom had the audacity to say that I didn’t know about the rock and the hat because I didn’t study hard enough. It’s like math teachers saying 2+2=5 and then burn the real math book. Then when you see the real answer written under a desk they say it was there all along and you just needed to look for it
Sorry, but if I were your mom, I would say the same thing. But perhaps it's not a question of how hard you study, but WHAT you study. Read a wide variety of material. If you were to move to a new city, you would want to find out all about it. If you got a new phone, you would research before you bought it, and learn all about it and how to use it. But, people are willing to bet their time, their money, and their eternal salvation on what some 90-year old man says and not check it our for themselves? I don't get it.
The Church seems to be taking a firm stance that the seer stone was just a normal rock with no special properties (8:55). I'm confident Joseph Smith would have disagreed. He had to dig 15 feet down to get that specific rock before he could begin using his gift of seeing (but never successfully retrieving) treasures in the earth. When Martin Harris swapped the stone with a lookalike, Joseph could not continue dictating until he had the right stone. He is on record teaching the Twelve apostles that the Lord has a stone ordained for every man if he will seek the gift in righteousness. Stone or no stone, Joseph's successors have failed to produce any of the many lost books of scripture that he promised would come forth. Why should we sustain a seer who doesn't do any seeing? Compared to Joseph, the Church's current leaders are embarrassingly "myopic."
I found out a year and a half ago when I left the church. I also found out that reformed Egyptian was ever a thing. So glad God lead me to the truth. Great job Nemo.
I was 52. Baptized at 15, mission, BYU, temple marriage. Served in pretty much every capacity in the ward. Taught and was taught in young men's, Sunday school, seminary, priesthood, etc etc. But never ever EVER was taught once how it actually happened. Incredibly frustrating to learn about the misdirection. Now am slowly learning about the REST OF THE STORY, if I may insert Paul Harvey's words.
I learned about the seer stone at BYU after I got home from my mission. I literally thought it was an anti-Mormon lie and was shocked that the “anti-Mormons” were more honest than my church was about its history.
And ye shall know the and the truth shall piss you the hell of when you figure out that these holy-er then thou General Authorities who I trusted had been lying to me my whole life. My life was built on the teachings of a 19th century conman.
More honest? Google ''Paul Gregersen debunked the Egyptologists you tube''. They're videos DEBUNKING the EGYPTOLOGISTS. Paul Gregersen debunked the Egyptologists in 2014. Therefore, why haven't the anti-Mormons admitted to this?
@@richardholmes7199 Google Michael Coe. American archaeologist, anthropologist, epigrapher, and author. He is known for his research on pre-Columbian Mesoamerica, particularly the Maya, and was among the foremost Mayanists of the late twentieth century. There are many videos etc. with his educated opinion about the Book of Mormon.
I learned about the stone and the hat while watching South Park. You can learn more by watching 22 minutes of South Park than attending seminary and institute for 8 years
South Park? That's the same mentality as the anti-Mormon crowd saying ''The Egyptologists proved Joseph Smith mistranslated the Book of Abraham characters. Google Book of Abraham pt 1 (Why Egyptologists are wrong) you tube. A video demonstrating that the EGYPTOLOGISTS have been DEBUNKED, proven as unintelligent.
Oh it was a shock to say the least! I was born into the church, attended seminary, listened to every general conference and NEVER heard about the seer stone & hat. It was never discussed. I was a member back in the ‘80s & ‘90s and it most definitely was never revealed to me. It’s sad. I would rather the truth had been shown in it’s entirety. If the church is so true then why try to hide or shade over the true facts of the religion? I never understood that.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON YES! it’s definitely interesting how they show pictures of the Urim and thummim, the breast plate, and the golden plates. It says everything when the cover of the ensign shows this perfect picture of Joseph Smith.That is truly the only explanation I got in the 18 years of being a member of the church. I hate this because I’m sure I am not the only one. I’m glad they have at least opened up little by little over the years because that is definitely progress. Hopefully they will just own up to all truths in the future. If it is something you believe in then why sugar coat it? It makes no sense. I Love your videos! I really look forward to all of them! You have a view that is completely non-biased. If they’re right they’re right....if they’re wrong they’re wrong. It’s not just an angry ex-mo view. I am the same way. There are a lot of wonderful things about the LDS church but obviously a ton of issues with the doctrines. I’m sure a lot of people feel the same and channels like yours really help us navigate through our spiritual journey after leaving. Thank you so very much Nemo! 💖😊👏👏👏👏
To answer the question of when did I find out, I found out when I was watching a video by Telltale that went over the South Park episode that someone else mentioned in the comments. But I took the whole video as anti lies from Satan because I was still a kid that didn’t know about the world. I never really believed the episode of south park either, but I eventually came around and rewatched the video and realized how stupid and indoctrinated I was in the past.
it coulda been a lot worse. be thankful you didn't get into scientology. they believe a dictator (xemu) on a different planet brought billions of people from his planet to earth and killed them with bombs. they still live on earth in spirit form. everyone on earth has a spirit. the by word for a person is o t. stands for operating thetan. there are good thetans and bad thetans. i might have it mixed up, but believe me, it coulda been worse. south park had a scientology episode.
I discovered last year via TH-cam. Although excommunicated over 40 years ago and having had nothing to do with the church since then the torrent of information on the internet fascinates me
Learned about it some 6 years ago when I was a serious investigator. I did exactly what my missionaries told me not to do: went to Google and TH-cam to learn about the Church. Needless to say, I never got baptized. It wasn't that I believed what they had related as fact: I just wanted to know the real story behind the mythology. What I found was a lot of serious problems that went beyond not buying into the founding myths. I was honest with my missionaries about why I no loqqnger wanted to join and suggested they find out the real history of their religion. They were so sad to lose a "golden prospect" - their words - but later I found out one of them ended up leaving the church shortly after he returned from his mission. As I said, I never really bought into the narrative, but the LDS people, on the other hand, were wonderful and seemed to have created such an ideal community. I was honestly surprised to learn most professed to believe wholeheartedly in the founding narrative that I had found literally incredible. I remain fascinated by Mormonism from a cultural/anthropological standpoint. It's extremely rare to be so close in time to the foundation of a successful religious movement - and the phenomenon of religion and religious history have long been passionate interests of mine.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON they did! I told them that as a lover of history, I was eager to learn all I could about LDS history. They were uneasy at that and told me to stick with church resources because of all the "anti Mormon stuff out there". Being me, I could not wait to dig nto that!☺
..I pop into these sites just to see what people are extolling, and the various comments that follow. I will never leave the church, as there are other facets of the gospel's long history that anchor my testimony. I'm from the south seas, and that whole Lamanite tradition of the Native Americand resonates well with those in the various islands of the Pacific. I enjoyed reading your comments. You have no desire to join the church, and that is to be respected. However, I just thought I would acknowledge your sincerity in articulating your personal search for truth. God bless.
I didn’t learn about the seer stone until after I left the church in late 2017. I read the CES Letter after I stopped believing, and that’s when I learned about how Joseph Smith actually claimed to have translated it. The first I heard about the claim was in South Park, but I vehemently denied it until late 2017.
I am 46, born and raised in the church. Served in over 5 Primary presidencies for over 20 years. I first found out JS used the rock in the hat method 4 years ago.
I heard in England 30 years ago of the rock in the hat rumour which was viewed as anti- Mormon lies. Had I been informed of this during the missionary discussions I would never have joined the church!
@@reginaldevans8746 I am so sorry you were decieved. I was BIC but believed the lie, too. I was scapegoated and then excommunicated for being believed to be the perpetrator of my own grooming and sexual abuse, DESPITE being the whistleblower. I went through the hell of official reinstatement/rebaptism because I believed it was true. I would never have gone through that, had I known the truth.
@@Oilstories what a terrible nightmare you must have undergone. Your tragic story reveals your inner strength in wishing to rejoin something that had once caused you so much pain! I had no religious foundation, a few years older than you , I held only a nominal belief based what I had learnt at school. With my father's impending death I could not accept that I could never see him again. The Church gave that hope of eternity, though not through any scriptural teaching. It was my instincts which told me something wasn't right. The visit to the temple was the beginning of the end as I couldn't see how the penalties were conducive to an all loving Jesus. It took me 16years and intense study to be able to finally let go. But this left me with a huge spiritual void in my life! If the story of the BOM was untrue, then I could have no confidence that anything else was either! In order to make informed choices, we need to see ALL the evidence! This was not done in my case! I think Douglas / Nemo has found the truth at a time when he has the rest of his life ahead him. I wish him and you a bright and happy future! Be well.
I learned about the rock in the hat after reading the CES letter. I grew up in the church, went to the temple to do baptisms for the dead, went to seminary and sang all the songs. Never had I ever heard about or seen depictions representing this truth of how the BOM was translated. My mom had never heard of this either and she has been an active life long member of 73years. This was definitely not something taught by my LDS community or family or extended family or friends. It was shocking and disappointing to learn about the truth. I think the most disturbing thing is that when the truth came out so many of my family and friends would not call it for what it was, we were ALL lied to. I think my mom said “ she must have know about this at some point?” She is actually blaming herself for not teaching me this about the translation. She would rather take the blame than put the blame on the church leaders. To admit they lied, for years and always knew the real truth, would be wrong. She needs to sustain (believe in them to never lead her astray)her leaders to keep her temple recommend. She always tells me that we are not ment to know everything now on earth and one day we will understand. Is this a common response others get when bringing up the lies of the church with others? It kind of makes me mental when taking a ride on this merry-go-round. Can anyone relate?
Yes, this is a common response when difficult questions come up. You’re supposed to have blind faith in the same people who lied to you in the first place and trust that after this life we will understand everything.
I learned about the rock in a hat in high school thanks to a friend mentioning the South Park episode. I thought it was an anti-Mormon lie. Then I looked it up. I still went on a mission, but that was the first issue that sat on my shelf.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Thanks for asking! Actually, I now recall what exactly happened. After my friend told me about the rock in a hat, I went and researched it and came across an apologist explanation that it never happened and was put forward by someone who was remembering what he heard through the grapevine or something. That satisfied me. I went on my mission to NJ 2002-2004. In 2012 when Mitt Romney was running I accidentally stumbled upon an article by Alan Rock Waterman called “A Piss-poor Excuse for a Mormon”. I started reading more of Waterman's articles until I came to his “Are We Paying Too Much Tithing?” It got me so mad that the leaders of the Church would try to deceive me about how much I should pay in tithing that I decided to do something that would anger them: I would read an anti-Mormon book. So I read Kay Burningham's book, “An American Fraud: One Lawyer’s Case Against Mormonism.” That raised a lot of questions that I wanted to fact check. Before I did I read Lyndon Lamborn's book, "Standing For Something More." In the first half of the book his explanation of how feelings from the Holy Ghost can't be taken at face value was the final straw that broke my shelf. I still thought that Christianity must still be true somehow though. The second half of the book made me an atheist, especially thanks to his explanation of Noah's ark.
I am a convert... almost thirty years ago.. I remember my dear mother saying things to me that at first I defended the church and said she was wrong... I now understand.. why the church is labeled a cult by other churches, I also just found out about the rock and hat method two years ago, not to mention Joseph and polygamy wasn't exactly as I was told...after Joseph died women would seal themselves to him... Both of these items would have been enough I don't think I would have joined. Not that it was easy, I investigated it several times... I thought I received a message from God that it was true...uumm maybe not.. maybe wanted it to be.. yes, I've made some very nice people, had nice experiences... But, I didn't marry and have children.. always wondered if my church membership had something to do with it.. There's other things I think about now..like how are we going to be together with our families and with God and Jesus..if we reach exhalation and have our own world? Found out about the Book of the Hebrews too.. it's themes often relate to the BofM...the author happens to have been pastor of the same church Oliver C attended and was published before BofM. We know, often admitted, the Joseph smith jr and family were storytellers, fortune hunters, most people warn those kind of people are often dishonest and not trustworthy. Word of wisdom...was optional, until prohibition. They say Bible true but has disclaimer as long as translation ok..often said not as trusting..well to test it for about 8,9 months now I've been attending a local synagogue's Torah ( what they call book that makes up our old testament).. guess what... Pretty much the same as the King James bible.. words might not be exact, but meaning same! Also why would Jesus have allowed the Bible changed to remove temple ordinances, exhalation etc? Even if we're removed why would he wait until the 1800s to fix it?? Why doesn't the church make sure it's new converts know everything..even the temple ordinances so much secrecy...yes we know sacred not secret kind of convenient... And what I never realized.. Jesus and the atonement only get you to the lowest kingdom..the rest you have to earn... Well that's all I'm writing for now...
The stones were not just normal stones, I cannot believe how they gloss over that......they were very important to Joseph. He went back to Sally Chase to go and get a specific stone he used for treasure digging. Plus the "interpreters" were supposedly buried with the plates. These were not your normal everyday stones. You're the best Nemo! Love your analysis.
I wonder if the fact that the plates were never seen by physical eyes and that they are only spiritual would play into this somehow. Love your videos, Nemo!
I found out about the aRock Hat method from I believe the South Park episode. I was already out of the church and thought it was a bit weird but set it aside. It was a year or two ago that I came across the news the church had published images of the seer stone and I had my wtf moment. Doublet so when Nelson actually did an interview with the rock and the hat and then it was ‘OMG they’re admitting it.’
At 1:10 - they used to use Joseph (in Egypt)'s diving cup as one of the examples of objects used to seer in the 1920s when they were trying to normalize seer stones to members. It was included in the Sunday school lessons for over a decade (1920-1936). Evidently this example has fallen out of favor.
@@NEMOTHEMORMONThe magic cup was similar to other divining methods of the time (by non-biblical folks). So it really doesn't help there case much to say that people in the church were always using the same folk magic methods of the greater community. The real church was supposed to be different.
Three points: 1) The church's current definition of seer is very different from the Book of Mormon definition. Mosiah 8:13-17 clearly states that a seer by definition uses a seer stone. 2) The church's video implies that the seer stone was only used for "looking for lost objects" and for translating the Book of Mormon. This is misleading, because the early revelations and the translation of John's parchment (D&C 7) were also received through the seer stone. 3) The seer stone was only referred to as Urim and Thummim starting in 1833. During the time it was actually in use, it was not referred to as Urim and Thummim. They started calling it that in an attempt to make the connection between Joseph's practice and Biblical precedent. Only modern scholarship doesn't bear out the idea that the Biblical Urim and Thummim were at all similar to Joseph's seer stone. They seem to have been stones used to determine God's will, not to receive entire books of scripture.
probably the high priest could reach into a pouch and pull out a stone. if the answer was yes he pulled out a white stone. if the answer was no he pulled out a black stone. casting lots or picking the longest straw is a time honored way of choosing, and was the method used by the "11 apostles" . remember acts 1.26 "Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles." so you can see matthias became an apostle because he picked the longest straw in a bundle
7:42 - "Joseph used both the Urim and Thummim and the seer stone at different times during the translation process". DANG. They just failed to mention that the "urim and thummim" or spectacles was only used pior to loosing the 116 pages. ALL of the current BOM was translated with the seer stone. The church knows this. Larry Morris from the JSP project has clearly stated this.
I found out about the stone in the hat as a teenager from south park :P I immediately ran down to my Mum who unintentionally gaslighted me and I'm sorry to say that I just took it on the chin and ran with it... I also found out about scientology beliefs through south park as well, and I know that some scientologists were "enlightened" if you like, through watching the show in much the same way.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON yup, and I was watching raptly, because my cool big brother was showing it to me, haha! He had come back from uni and was showing me all sorts of shows he'd gotten into, I really respected him, so wanted to give them a good shot. He'd left the church by this time, so it was interesting for him to see my reaction as well, haha :'d
I first heard of a seer stone when the church came out about it in 2015? Or 2016? I can’t remember. I’ve been a member my entire life (35 years) and served a mission. Took religious classes at BYU and graduated seminary as a teenager. Never ever heard of a seer stone. Didn’t realize what the seer stone was actually used for until my faith crisis last fall. Changes the narrative a bit doesn’t it?
I was batized a Mormon in 1971 and remained a member until over a year ago, then resigned my membership. Not once during church were we ever told about the peepstone in a hat story. We were shown the false illustration of Smiths (alleged) translation and told the he did it "by the power of God". This was yet one of the countless points of sanitized church history that have them scrambling to be reproduced in recent essays. The god of Mormonism appears to be a recidivist flip flopper.
I learned about the rock and the hat from my brother who learned it from South Park I believe. This was around 2005. I really wasn't sure I believed it, or even if it was true if it was a big deal. I didn't realize the implications (that he believed in magic).
Image at 7:02 like you said shows none of the tools used and added two things he didn’t need like uncovered plates and a candle. They say the seer stone glowed like a cellphone in the hat and stay illuminated until he got the translation correct. It’s sad they’re going to blame the “artist’s interpretation” and gaslight the next generation, like the current, when they say they weren’t told the true history.
Yes!!! But as they are the ones that publish the image, they can’t blame artistic interpretation, because they are responsible for publishing it! That’s not to say they won’t try, they’ll blame anything but the Q15!
Back when the joseph smith papers were made public and in the ensign around that time included a picture of this brown striped rock as a TBM I was TOTALLY OK with this. It made sense to me and I accepted it without blinking. I didn't even take a moment to consider the change in narrative was significant BECAUSE I had a TESTIMONY that he was a TRUE prophet of god. Being anchored with this testimony I was even able to be OK with the church now openly admitting Joseph was a polygamist. I thought "IT'S ABOUT TIME!" "WHY WAS THIS KEPT UNDER WRAPS" I also felt it irrelevant because I had a TESTIMONY. I KNEW the church was TRUE. My testimony was an inoculation to any threats.
Even years after I left the church, I saw South Park with the rock in the hat and I thought "That's just exaggeration for comedic effect." I still didn't realize it was part of the history until years later.
i was in my early 20s when i first read about seer stones. i was talking about things with my sister in my 30s. when i was 35 i read shadow and reality and that's when my shelf finally came crashing down. mormons are never at a loss to find ways to prop up their fairy tale religion. did you miss anything? treasure seeking revelation in the d&c, white stone given to everyone and earth a giant seer stone (d&c), the name gazlem (gaze) in d&c and b/m, russell nelson quotes address all believers in christ in the ensign about rock in the hat, d&c and other scriptures changed with fast and furious wild abandon to help hide the truth.
The image from 7:10 is from a children's book published in 2002. Of course they show the golden plates. The new narrative with the seer stone wasn't introduced until 2015.
So did JS not use the Gold plates to write the BoM? (I've been less active awhile) so he looked in a hat and then sribed. So the church is changing heaps since I've been away.
I learnt about the seer stones well after being baptized. It was one of many things that I was not told about. Missionaries are taught to teach half the truth
I joined the church in 1975 and served a mission from 1976-1978. I never learned about the “rock in the hat” translation until a non-member told me in 2018. I disputed that story and said that it was anti Mormon propaganda. Only after researching the work from Fawn Brody, Grant Palmer, Dan Vogel and podcasts in 2022 did I learn the truth. My wife and I resigned our membership in 2023.
Later on in this video? The fact the church has had the rock in its possession and known about this for a long time, makes any misrepresentation a big deal, because it is dishonest.
I've recently been reading the book _By Means of the Urim & Thummim_ by James W Lucas and Jonathan E Neville, which argues that the stone in the hat theory isn't reliable and directly contradicts many other sources, especially those of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. I don't think Joseph Smith used a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon, and a more thorough analysis of the historical records seems to indicate such in my opinion. Ironically, I think the Church had it more right before they adopted the seer stone theory and depictions.
What he was doing was channeling. He was a skryer. The Bible warns to avoid those who peep and mutter. He was doing this to try to earn money before his whole religion thing. He called it the seer stone to try to gain credibility. I feel betrayed by Joseph's many lies, and then by the many lies of every so called prophet that followed him. I grieve for my family that remains Mormon.
If I’ve studied correctly, the word SEER in Smith’s day had nothing to do with the same term used in the Old Testament. A seer WAS a person who used a rock or stone in a hat to find treasure or objects of value. There were other seers in Smith’s day yet they are not considered religious Mormon prophets. Why not? The answer to me is easy: these individuals were not considered religious. They were only known as money seekers claiming to find treasure with their rocks and hats. To try and build a believable bridge of using objects provided by God from unrelated biblical accounts shows the premeditated lies concocted by the Mormon Church’s leaders over the last 200 years. Such evil…such intent.
Although produced by bureaucrats on the Church payroll, the video cited by Nemo is completely inaccurate with respect to the translation of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith and his primary scribe Oliver Cowdery repeatedly and consistently testified that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates using the Nephite interpreter device (sometimes called the Urim and Thummim) which was deposited in the Hill Cumorah with the plates. Critical examination in their full historical context of the accounts of Joseph using a seer stone in a hat to translate shows these accounts to be late, secondhand or otherwise completely unreliable.
This for me is a major shelf item, primarily because I taught and bore testimony for two years regarding a literal translation of golden plates, this was the narrative that I was taught as a missionary to teach. As we learn in this video, that narrative is completely false. The church was and is totally okay with teaching this false narrative Honest in your dealings with your fellow men Looks like our profits and apostles need to have their temple recommends taken away
At the age of 45 I learned about the stone in a hat trick, just last year. I haven't been an active member for over twenty years, but was nonetheless surprised. The spin used to buffer the idea is gross. I am endlessly disappointed in the church and it shady false narratives.
Joseph Smith used a morrion crystal. It was a witch's peep stone. Joseph was a charismatic bewitching person as described by people who knew him. He was a warlock. That is why the Book of Mormon is not a history book but an excellent fabrication.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON The tiktok community on there is crazy like thousands of us.. I dont make vids but watch vids and answer comments & call out lies. The videos are really good, id recommend making an account just to watch at the very least, I know some people use TT to grow their youtubes too. Would love to see you on there even just as a commenter! =] Your so insightful, full of verifiable facts, polite, & straight to the point.
Wow. These Mormon videos not only help invalidate Joseph smith amd the Book of Mormon, it’s some how doing the same for the bible. Comparing seer stones with Moses serpent on a stick. Makes it sound just a crazy and therefore the bible must be made up too. Great job church.
That's what they USA only defense they have is when they're put into a corner the only argument they have is false comparison fabrication and making us up as the only lasted effort defense that's the thing that's frustrating me most about dealing with these cults the use of low blow dishonest false comparison ariton attempt to try to protect themselves they are defending themselves even more and exposing their ignorance of weakness showing they can't get out of it they can't get out of the corner there stabbed dead therefore they got up play coward and use someone as a shield.
You suggest if Joseph was treasure-digging with his seer stones it was illegal. Your stated reason for this suggestion is that New York law made it illegal to be “pretending to discover where lost goods may be found”. So the law you quote didn’t differentiate between seeking treasure or other lost objects, nor did it make it illegal to be able to find lost objects, only to pretend that you could. You seem to be doing what you accuse the church of doing, e.g. presenting in a biased, incomplete, or inaccurate way so as to persuade others to agree with your view.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON You often miss the point in your attempt to find fault with the church and here is another example of that. My comment isn't about the source of a quote - it is about the way you use it, which results in an illogical suggestion. You have to learn to take more responsibility for your statements - many of which don't stand up very well to scrutiny in my view.
And the way I use it is the same way the church does. The church is the one that makes the suggestion, not me, and they are also the ones who quote the law. I linked the source in the description, feel free to read it!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Taking quotes and references from others and using them in your video means that the context in which you use them comes under scrutiny. YOU suggest in YOUR video that the church has deliberately excluded (in their cartoon video) reference to Joseph Smith treasure digging because it was illegal. Yet you provide no evidence to seriously support that suggestion of the church's motive. It might be more credible to say the church possibly avoided mentioning treasure-digging as some may nowadays consider it strange or, worse still, dishonest. However, YOU (not the church) suggest it was excluded from the video by the church because it was an illegal act - and treasure-digging was not an illegal act, so why mention it that way ? The argument you are using here (that the church is avoiding mentioning an illegal use of a seer stone) is flawed. It is not the church which is saying why something is missing from its cartoon video .... that is your work and your responsibility.
What I would like to know is: What are your religious beliefs or preferences. Most people who go on the internet and try to tear are afraid to put out their own personal belief system. They don't want done to them what they are trying to do to others. They just don't have the "Cajones" to do this since they know someone will try to pick at their own belief system. So I'm goig to ask you flat out. Are you willing to share your own belief system and do a program on it? Heck, you can do it now on this thread! I"d really don't think you will because of the "Cajones" factor!
Your fixation on my genitals aside, no, I won't. My personal belief system has no bearing on, or relevance to, the objective truth of the claims of the church.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON it's because you don't want people to tear you apart. You want other people to tear Mormons apart but when it comes to your own personal beliefs you're too sacred and you're too much of a wuss to let everyone know what you think because you'll have a bunch of people disagree with you. And that means that the people who were on your side thinking that Mormon suck, some of them will also think that you suck too! And you're probably too much of a pansy to hack it. You'll want to go into your safe space and start crying because it was too much for your system.
When I found out a couple years ago that the seer stone was news to most Mormons, I was baffled. I knew about this years ago. How could they not know? But, I was raised half in the church, half out, and in an era where most people took what the "big brethren" said with a grain of salt. Honestly, you people take them way too seriously. You follow them like lemmings to the edge of a cliff, and when they say "jump", you jump. Then, you complain that you were deceived. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. Take responsibility for your own lives. All the scriptures say "Don't trust the arm of flesh." The church used to be a lot of fun, and you really felt a part of it. I hear people talking about the church today, and I can hardly believe we are talking about the same thing. I guess, in reality, we aren't. Somehow I managed to figure this out on my own, that a lot of this was lies and deception. I actually believe in the Holy Ghost. I believe in personal revelation. I listened to it tell me what was true and what was BS. The gospel of Jesus Christ is true, but the church has corrupted it, beyond all recognition. I know it's easier to sit in the back of the bus and let somebody do the driving for you. You can blame the bus driver when he drives you off the cliff. But, it's still your life. Why trust it to somebody who has demonstrably lied to you?
A man sticks his head in a hat, and translates a Bible using magical stones. No small wonder true Christians compare the Book of Mormon with the fairy tale "Jack and the Bean Stalk", where magical beans were the entire theme. The Book of Mormon is just about as reliable as a fairy tale, when we consider the fact that there is no sound archeology that the cities, people, animals, coins, or any other artifact evidence ever existed. Not a sliver of evidence.
this guy is lying. The witnesses reported seeing Joseph Smith using a Urim and Thumim which is two stones in a frame for most of the translation. Later he could use just one stone or a seers stone. He put a stone in a hat because like the urim (which means lights) stone, and the 12 stones of the high priest of Israel, all of which like the urim and thumim were crystal, so the stones would light up. Thus they were used where there was little light or put them in a high hat to block light. Never did Joseph Smith just receive information without a devise to translate. Stones which light up are similar to a cell phone today. Cell phone use a crystal i.e. Silicon chip to transmit info and need to have light blocked to see the words of a text. Hey guy do some better research.
Best thing to do is read the Book of Mormon yourself and ask God your questions. Men can twist anything from all sides. If the seer stones were of God then dust or moth wouldn’t ever corrupt them. Take everything to God. Read for yourself.
I’ve been a member my entire life, I have done both of those things. God also blessed me with a mind and the ability to reason, so I see nothing wrong with using that too!
Hey, Jonny the Berean's were commended for searching scripture to see if what they were being taught matched up. The bible says the heart is wicked and Jesus says in Matt that out of the heart comes false witness. God wants us to reason not just feel:) hope you have a great day.
Why did the Church choose THIS gay sounding voice over for this cartoon? They reject gay people in the faith yet feature them in media such as this, I’m confused, who are they trying to appeal to? I found out about the rock in a hat via ‘South Park’
I learned about the seer stone in his hat this past summer. I felt betrayed when I discovered all I had been taught was a lie. Just makes me sick to know all the time and money I gave up to a Church of lies.
It’s horrible to realise the deception! It is such a betrayal of our goodwill and trust as members. Thank you for sharing!
Did you formally leave it? I feel the same way..but for now I'm still technically in, mine was found it two years ago
Yesterday's anti Mormon lies are today's church essays.
I was 62, and Primary President at the time, the rock in hat fueled my intense study and exit from a church that lied to me for 62 years.
Wow, so it was the starter for you, thanks for sharing!
Ok boomer
Me too... Still technically in..I'll never voluntary remove my name as I spent too much time and money getting temple ordinances done.. Maybe sounds silly, but that's how I feel.. it's just two years ago that all this new info came to my knowledge. Besides, not sure want to restart at another church at this point..
I am 65. Yea, WTH!! My treck started 3 months ago. I am still in the anger stage. Why the lies? I’ve been watching Nemo, John Delin and BYP to get me through…also Felf
on the Shelf for comic relief..
Reading Rough Stone Rolling and Lectures on Faith, too.
Thanks to all of you.
@@patricianoel7782 ironically leaving the church is everything they warned you it would be but it’s still better. The truth is always better. I served from 06-08 in Montana.
I found out about the rock in the hat a year and a half ago. I am now out of the church but it continues to torment me. I’m now in a mixed faith marriage and being scrutinized by my family. Never understood why exmormons we often quite angry, now I know.
I hope you find some peace moving forward! Thanks for sharing!
Great job as always.
Because you asked: I learned about the rock-in-hat on my mission in the 1990's and was told, in no uncertain terms, it was anti-mormon propaganda. The admission that the story was true two decades later wasn't the worst part. The fact the church had, in its possession, the stone wasn't the worst part. For me, the worst part was when apologetics started to claim that they had ALWAYS taught the rock in the hat.
I tend to think Orwell references are overused, but to me, this is being told we were always at war with Eastasia.
Yes! The gaslighting is the worst part! You know I’ve never actually read 1984, it’s on my shelf ready to be read!
My brother said the similar. He served in Utah and pretty certain it broke his testimony
@radiofreeutah5328, The “Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith” manual quotes Joseph as claiming it was the Urim & Thummim that helped him translate the plates….
Something fishy is going on!
I first heard about this while on my mission in 1997. I remember an atheist gentleman talking about it on his doorstep. I told him he was being given bad information to keep him from the truth. About 7 year’s ago I found out he had the truth!
I think everyone has a moment like that in their past, when they called someone misinformed, only to learn the truth later! Thanks for sharing!
I don’t remember er details. I just remember people bible thumping with us and trashing Joseph. I’m assuming whatever they were telling me was truth. I told them polygamy was necessary for the woman who lost husbands due to persecution. Cause I was taught that. Lies
I was 46 when I found out about the rock and the hat, polygamy, polyandry, Book of Abraham issues, etc. Never knew about the gospel essays till late 2018. So upsetting to realize that we were all lied to. I hope the current missionaries are teaching the truth and not the lies I was told in my late teens!
Hello, I just discovered your channel a few days ago and I absolutely love it. I am a former member living in the United States in southwest Virginia. I didn’t discover that Joseph Smith used a rock in a hat until I was about 17 and I saw a South Park episode making fun of the translation story. My family history can be traced back to the founder of primary, Aurelia Rogers. It’s quite crazy hoe little I still knew growing up.
The Mormon Church is so good at “bait and switch” when it comes to the truth.
What do you mean?
I was 42 when I learned about the rock in the hat. I was born in the church, served a mission to Hong Kong and was active my entire life up to age 42. I had already decided to stop going to church over personal issues with the Book of Mormon and discovered the rock in the hat in the CES letter. I decided to ask all of my immediate family and anybody I knew within the church about how the book of Mormon was translated. Not a single person mentioned a rock and a hat, every one of them talked about the U&T and the golden plates. It isn't that a rock and a hat is any less believable than reading glasses from God and golden plates, it's that the church actively suppressed the information out of likely embarrassment. When the leaders of the church can't follow one of the basic tenets of the religion, honesty in your dealings with your fellow man, they cannot be trusted to be God's mouthpiece.
Damn right! The lack of honesty among the church leaders precludes them from being gods mouth piece in my eyes! Because it’s wilful, intentional, and harmful!
You could have sat down at the church archives and researched this yourself.
@@richardholmes7199 how do you research something that you didn't know existed? I've done plenty of research since and it is clear that the church has lied over and over again. My research has also clearly shown JS to be a fraud.
@@derralhawthorne4616 ''I've done plenty of research since and it is clear that the church has lied over and over again.'' Present the things that the church has lied about.
@@derralhawthorne4616 ''My research has also clearly shown JS to be a fraud.'' Expand on the things proving Joseph Smith to be a fraud. Will be standing by.
My dear friend just gifted me a copy of the seer stone as it was now shown to the membership. He accurately painted a regular stone like the “special, authentic stone” then put a small HodPoged picture of Joseph Smith!!! It’s fantastic! Best gift ever! Right up there with Kevin, the taint. 😂🎉❤
My LDS husband didn’t know about the seer stone until a few weeks ago after I read the Gospel Topics Essay on the subject. He served a full mission, got perfect attendance all four years of seminary and has been a member for 31 years... In the Gospel Topics Essay, the Church says the terms ‘urim & thummim’ and ‘seer stone’ are used interchangeably, which seems so wrong.
That’s because it is wrong! It’s crazy that members are still discovering the most basic facts around the origin of their own religion! Thanks for sharing!
Yes when you force the comparison of the Mormon Urim and thummim to the Old Testament Urim and thummim in either appearance or use, they have nothing in common. In fact the term Urim and thummim was not used until 1832! And not in scripture until 1835!
This was actually known prior to the Gospel Topics Essay. Don't understand what the big deal about the seer stones that some are making is all about.
@@richardholmes7199 JS used the seer stone for his treasure seeking endeavors. Which resulted in his taking money from folks without actually finding treasure. Not a good look. Why were the urim and thummim hidden with the golden plates if he was meant to use the seer stone to translate the plates? The fact that the Church uses the terms ‘urim and thummim’ and ‘seer stone’ interchangeably while they are not even close to being the same object is wrong & dishonest. Clearly gives people a false impression.
I suppose if someone ultimately believes JS translated the golden plates through revelation, his using the seer stone would seem like a moot point. The fact that he never looked at the plates while translating them also wouldn’t matter. You’re free to believe however you choose, but it is worth exploring from an objective perspective at some point.
@@rachelitobandito ''You're free to believe however you choose, but it is worth exploring from an objective perspective at some point.'' You have had more than the needed amount of time to explore from an objective perspective. As one cannot investigate Mormonism (Jesus Christ) thoroughly, then turn around and say that the church isn't true to begin with.
My mom had the audacity to say that I didn’t know about the rock and the hat because I didn’t study hard enough. It’s like math teachers saying 2+2=5 and then burn the real math book. Then when you see the real answer written under a desk they say it was there all along and you just needed to look for it
Pretty spot analogy! Assuming we should’ve seen obscure information in spite of a dominant narrative to the contrary!
Sorry, but if I were your mom, I would say the same thing. But perhaps it's not a question of how hard you study, but WHAT you study. Read a wide variety of material. If you were to move to a new city, you would want to find out all about it. If you got a new phone, you would research before you bought it, and learn all about it and how to use it. But, people are willing to bet their time, their money, and their eternal salvation on what some 90-year old man says and not check it our for themselves? I don't get it.
@@MegaJohn144 were you born in and raised in the church? For many, it isn't at all like moving to a new city, it's the one you're born and raised in.
The Church seems to be taking a firm stance that the seer stone was just a normal rock with no special properties (8:55). I'm confident Joseph Smith would have disagreed. He had to dig 15 feet down to get that specific rock before he could begin using his gift of seeing (but never successfully retrieving) treasures in the earth. When Martin Harris swapped the stone with a lookalike, Joseph could not continue dictating until he had the right stone. He is on record teaching the Twelve apostles that the Lord has a stone ordained for every man if he will seek the gift in righteousness. Stone or no stone, Joseph's successors have failed to produce any of the many lost books of scripture that he promised would come forth. Why should we sustain a seer who doesn't do any seeing? Compared to Joseph, the Church's current leaders are embarrassingly "myopic."
I found out a year and a half ago when I left the church. I also found out that reformed Egyptian was ever a thing. So glad God lead me to the truth.
Great job Nemo.
Thanks for sharing!
I was 52. Baptized at 15, mission, BYU, temple marriage. Served in pretty much every capacity in the ward. Taught and was taught in young men's, Sunday school, seminary, priesthood, etc etc. But never ever EVER was taught once how it actually happened. Incredibly frustrating to learn about the misdirection. Now am slowly learning about the REST OF THE STORY, if I may insert Paul Harvey's words.
I learned about the seer stone at BYU after I got home from my mission. I literally thought it was an anti-Mormon lie and was shocked that the “anti-Mormons” were more honest than my church was about its history.
It’s a strange place isn’t it to discover “the enemy” are more honest than your leaders! Thanks for sharing!
And ye shall know the and the truth shall piss you the hell of when you figure out that these holy-er then thou General Authorities who I trusted had been lying to me my whole life. My life was built on the teachings of a 19th century conman.
More honest? Google ''Paul Gregersen debunked the Egyptologists you tube''. They're videos DEBUNKING the EGYPTOLOGISTS. Paul Gregersen debunked the Egyptologists in 2014. Therefore, why haven't the anti-Mormons admitted to this?
@@richardholmes7199 Google Michael Coe. American archaeologist, anthropologist, epigrapher, and author. He is known for his research on pre-Columbian Mesoamerica, particularly the Maya, and was among the foremost Mayanists of the late twentieth century. There are many videos etc. with his educated opinion about the Book of Mormon.
@@jeanbodie3921 Why would I need to go to Coe?
I learned about the stone and the hat while watching South Park. You can learn more by watching 22 minutes of South Park than attending seminary and institute for 8 years
Which episode is it, I need to check it out!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Season 7 Episode 12 All About Mormons - South Park
Thanks!!!
Oh you are SO RIGHT! I learned more from the South Park episode then I did all the years in the church. That says everything! 😆
South Park? That's the same mentality as the anti-Mormon crowd saying ''The Egyptologists proved Joseph Smith mistranslated the Book of Abraham characters. Google Book of Abraham pt 1 (Why Egyptologists are wrong) you tube. A video demonstrating that the EGYPTOLOGISTS have been DEBUNKED, proven as unintelligent.
Oh it was a shock to say the least! I was born into the church, attended seminary, listened to every general conference and NEVER heard about the seer stone & hat. It was never discussed. I was a member back in the ‘80s & ‘90s and it most definitely was never revealed to me. It’s sad. I would rather the truth had been shown in it’s entirety. If the church is so true then why try to hide or shade over the true facts of the religion? I never understood that.
Exactly! "If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation." Sow hy hide things?
@@NEMOTHEMORMON YES! it’s definitely interesting how they show pictures of the Urim and thummim, the breast plate, and the golden plates. It says everything when the cover of the ensign shows this perfect picture of Joseph Smith.That is truly the only explanation I got in the 18 years of being a member of the church. I hate this because I’m sure I am not the only one. I’m glad they have at least opened up little by little over the years because that is definitely progress. Hopefully they will just own up to all truths in the future. If it is something you believe in then why sugar coat it? It makes no sense.
I Love your videos! I really look forward to all of them! You have a view that is completely non-biased. If they’re right they’re right....if they’re wrong they’re wrong. It’s not just an angry ex-mo view. I am the same way. There are a lot of wonderful things about the LDS church but obviously a ton of issues with the doctrines. I’m sure a lot of people feel the same and channels like yours really help us navigate through our spiritual journey after leaving. Thank you so very much Nemo! 💖😊👏👏👏👏
To answer the question of when did I find out, I found out when I was watching a video by Telltale that went over the South Park episode that someone else mentioned in the comments. But I took the whole video as anti lies from Satan because I was still a kid that didn’t know about the world. I never really believed the episode of south park either, but I eventually came around and rewatched the video and realized how stupid and indoctrinated I was in the past.
Bet the church is fuming at South Park!
South park?
it coulda been a lot worse. be thankful you didn't get into scientology. they believe a dictator (xemu) on a different planet brought billions of people from his planet to earth and killed them with bombs. they still live on earth in spirit form. everyone on earth has a spirit. the by word for a person is o t. stands for operating thetan. there are good thetans and bad thetans.
i might have it mixed up, but believe me, it coulda been worse.
south park had a scientology episode.
I discovered last year via TH-cam. Although excommunicated over 40 years ago and having had nothing to do with the church since then the torrent of information on the internet fascinates me
Cheers for sharing that!
What is your take on the reality of the Egyptologists being debunked?
Learned about it some 6 years ago when I was a serious investigator. I did exactly what my missionaries told me not to do: went to Google and TH-cam to learn about the Church. Needless to say, I never got baptized. It wasn't that I believed what they had related as fact: I just wanted to know the real story behind the mythology. What I found was a lot of serious problems that went beyond not buying into the founding myths. I was honest with my missionaries about why I no loqqnger wanted to join and suggested they find out the real history of their religion. They were so sad to lose a "golden prospect" - their words - but later I found out one of them ended up leaving the church shortly after he returned from his mission.
As I said, I never really bought into the narrative, but the LDS people, on the other hand, were wonderful and seemed to have created such an ideal community. I was honestly surprised to learn most professed to believe wholeheartedly in the founding narrative that I had found literally incredible.
I remain fascinated by Mormonism from a cultural/anthropological standpoint. It's extremely rare to be so close in time to the foundation of a successful religious movement - and the phenomenon of religion and religious history have long been passionate interests of mine.
Did they really warn you off google and youtube? wow! Cheers for sharing your story!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON they did! I told them that as a lover of history, I was eager to learn all I could about LDS history. They were uneasy at that and told me to stick with church resources because of all the "anti Mormon stuff out there". Being me, I could not wait to dig nto that!☺
..I pop into these sites just to see what people are extolling, and the various comments that follow. I will never leave the church, as there are other facets of the gospel's long history that anchor my testimony. I'm from the south seas, and that whole Lamanite tradition of the Native Americand resonates well with those in the various islands of the Pacific.
I enjoyed reading your comments. You have no desire to join the church, and that is to be respected. However, I just thought I would acknowledge your sincerity in articulating your personal search for truth. God bless.
I didn’t learn about the seer stone until after I left the church in late 2017. I read the CES Letter after I stopped believing, and that’s when I learned about how Joseph Smith actually claimed to have translated it. The first I heard about the claim was in South Park, but I vehemently denied it until late 2017.
I am 46, born and raised in the church. Served in over 5 Primary presidencies for over 20 years. I first found out JS used the rock in the hat method 4 years ago.
Almost like it wasn’t being discussed eh? Cheers for sharing!
I heard in England 30 years ago of the rock in the hat rumour which was viewed as anti- Mormon lies. Had I been informed of this during the missionary discussions I would never have joined the church!
@@reginaldevans8746 I am so sorry you were decieved. I was BIC but believed the lie, too. I was scapegoated and then excommunicated for being believed to be the perpetrator of my own grooming and sexual abuse, DESPITE being the whistleblower. I went through the hell of official reinstatement/rebaptism because I believed it was true. I would never have gone through that, had I known the truth.
@@Oilstories what a terrible nightmare you must have undergone. Your tragic story reveals your inner strength in wishing to rejoin something that had once caused you so much pain! I had no religious foundation, a few years older than you , I held only a nominal belief based what I had learnt at school. With my father's impending death I could not accept that I could never see him again. The Church gave that hope of eternity, though not through any scriptural teaching. It was my instincts which told me something wasn't right. The visit to the temple was the beginning of the end as I couldn't see how the penalties were conducive to an all loving Jesus. It took me 16years and intense study to be able to finally let go. But this left me with a huge spiritual void in my life! If the story of the BOM was untrue, then I could have no confidence that anything else was either! In order to make informed choices, we need to see ALL the evidence! This was not done in my case! I think Douglas / Nemo has found the truth at a time when he has the rest of his life ahead him. I wish him and you a bright and happy future! Be well.
@@Oilstories time to debaptize yourself off it completely and free all you know and debaptize them out all as well.
I learned about the rock in the hat after reading the CES letter. I grew up in the church, went to the temple to do baptisms for the dead, went to seminary and sang all the songs. Never had I ever heard about or seen depictions representing this truth of how the BOM was translated. My mom had never heard of this either and she has been an active life long member of 73years. This was definitely not something taught by my LDS community or family or extended family or friends. It was shocking and disappointing to learn about the truth. I think the most disturbing thing is that when the truth came out so many of my family and friends would not call it for what it was, we were ALL lied to. I think my mom said “ she must have know about this at some point?” She is actually blaming herself for not teaching me this about the translation. She would rather take the blame than put the blame on the church leaders. To admit they lied, for years and always knew the real truth, would be wrong. She needs to sustain (believe in them to never lead her astray)her leaders to keep her temple recommend. She always tells me that we are not ment to know everything now on earth and one day we will understand. Is this a common response others get when bringing up the lies of the church with others? It kind of makes me mental when taking a ride on this merry-go-round. Can anyone relate?
Yes, this is a common response when difficult questions come up. You’re supposed to have blind faith in the same people who lied to you in the first place and trust that after this life we will understand everything.
I learned about the rock in a hat in high school thanks to a friend mentioning the South Park episode. I thought it was an anti-Mormon lie. Then I looked it up. I still went on a mission, but that was the first issue that sat on my shelf.
Thanks for sharing!! If you don’t mind me asking, what was the thing that snapped it?
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Thanks for asking! Actually, I now recall what exactly happened. After my friend told me about the rock in a hat, I went and researched it and came across an apologist explanation that it never happened and was put forward by someone who was remembering what he heard through the grapevine or something. That satisfied me.
I went on my mission to NJ 2002-2004. In 2012 when Mitt Romney was running I accidentally stumbled upon an article by Alan Rock Waterman called “A Piss-poor Excuse for a Mormon”. I started reading more of Waterman's articles until I came to his “Are We Paying Too Much Tithing?” It got me so mad that the leaders of the Church would try to deceive me about how much I should pay in tithing that I decided to do something that would anger them: I would read an anti-Mormon book.
So I read Kay Burningham's book, “An American Fraud: One Lawyer’s Case Against Mormonism.” That raised a lot of questions that I wanted to fact check. Before I did I read Lyndon Lamborn's book, "Standing For Something More." In the first half of the book his explanation of how feelings from the Holy Ghost can't be taken at face value was the final straw that broke my shelf. I still thought that Christianity must still be true somehow though. The second half of the book made me an atheist, especially thanks to his explanation of Noah's ark.
I am a convert... almost thirty years ago.. I remember my dear mother saying things to me that at first I defended the church and said she was wrong... I now understand.. why the church is labeled a cult by other churches, I also just found out about the rock and hat method two years ago, not to mention Joseph and polygamy wasn't exactly as I was told...after Joseph died women would seal themselves to him... Both of these items would have been enough I don't think I would have joined. Not that it was easy, I investigated it several times... I thought I received a message from God that it was true...uumm maybe not.. maybe wanted it to be.. yes, I've made some very nice people, had nice experiences... But, I didn't marry and have children.. always wondered if my church membership had something to do with it..
There's other things I think about now..like how are we going to be together with our families and with God and Jesus..if we reach exhalation and have our own world? Found out about the Book of the Hebrews too.. it's themes often relate to the BofM...the author happens to have been pastor of the same church Oliver C attended and was published before BofM.
We know, often admitted, the Joseph smith jr and family were storytellers, fortune hunters, most people warn those kind of people are often dishonest and not trustworthy. Word of wisdom...was optional, until prohibition.
They say Bible true but has disclaimer as long as translation ok..often said not as trusting..well to test it for about 8,9 months now I've been attending a local synagogue's Torah ( what they call book that makes up our old testament).. guess what... Pretty much the same as the King James bible.. words might not be exact, but meaning same!
Also why would Jesus have allowed the Bible changed to remove temple ordinances, exhalation etc? Even if we're removed why would he wait until the 1800s to fix it?? Why doesn't the church make sure it's new converts know everything..even the temple ordinances so much secrecy...yes we know sacred not secret kind of convenient... And what I never realized.. Jesus and the atonement only get you to the lowest kingdom..the rest you have to earn... Well that's all I'm writing for now...
The stones were not just normal stones, I cannot believe how they gloss over that......they were very important to Joseph. He went back to Sally Chase to go and get a specific stone he used for treasure digging. Plus the "interpreters" were supposedly buried with the plates. These were not your normal everyday stones. You're the best Nemo! Love your analysis.
Thanks! And thanks for your comment!
Yes, the stones are not just ordinary stones. They are magical stones, like the magical Mormon underwear that protect the wearer from evil.
I wonder if the fact that the plates were never seen by physical eyes and that they are only spiritual would play into this somehow. Love your videos, Nemo!
I learned about the rock in a hat method in 2006 from historians - not those ridiculous apologists or the church itself. Good work again Nemo.
Thanks!!!
I found out about the aRock Hat method from I believe the South Park episode. I was already out of the church and thought it was a bit weird but set it aside. It was a year or two ago that I came across the news the church had published images of the seer stone and I had my wtf moment. Doublet so when Nelson actually did an interview with the rock and the hat and then it was ‘OMG they’re admitting it.’
At 1:10 - they used to use Joseph (in Egypt)'s diving cup as one of the examples of objects used to seer in the 1920s when they were trying to normalize seer stones to members. It was included in the Sunday school lessons for over a decade (1920-1936). Evidently this example has fallen out of favor.
Seems that way, possibly too niche? Or too close to folk magic (divining)?
@@NEMOTHEMORMONThe magic cup was similar to other divining methods of the time (by non-biblical folks). So it really doesn't help there case much to say that people in the church were always using the same folk magic methods of the greater community. The real church was supposed to be different.
Three points: 1) The church's current definition of seer is very different from the Book of Mormon definition. Mosiah 8:13-17 clearly states that a seer by definition uses a seer stone. 2) The church's video implies that the seer stone was only used for "looking for lost objects" and for translating the Book of Mormon. This is misleading, because the early revelations and the translation of John's parchment (D&C 7) were also received through the seer stone. 3) The seer stone was only referred to as Urim and Thummim starting in 1833. During the time it was actually in use, it was not referred to as Urim and Thummim. They started calling it that in an attempt to make the connection between Joseph's practice and Biblical precedent. Only modern scholarship doesn't bear out the idea that the Biblical Urim and Thummim were at all similar to Joseph's seer stone. They seem to have been stones used to determine God's will, not to receive entire books of scripture.
Thanks for the additional insight!
probably the high priest could reach into a pouch and pull out a stone. if the answer was yes he pulled out a white stone. if the answer was no he pulled out a black stone.
casting lots or picking the longest straw is a time honored way of choosing, and was the method used by the "11 apostles" .
remember acts 1.26 "Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles." so you can see matthias became an apostle because he picked the longest straw in a bundle
7:42 - "Joseph used both the Urim and Thummim and the seer stone at different times during the translation process". DANG. They just failed to mention that the "urim and thummim" or spectacles was only used pior to loosing the 116 pages. ALL of the current BOM was translated with the seer stone. The church knows this. Larry Morris from the JSP project has clearly stated this.
Wouldn't be the first time they failed to mention something! If you have a source for him stating this that'd be great! Thanks again for commenting!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON th-cam.com/video/53z8TIy8IX0/w-d-xo.html
Thank you!
I found out about the stone in the hat as a teenager from south park :P I immediately ran down to my Mum who unintentionally gaslighted me and I'm sorry to say that I just took it on the chin and ran with it...
I also found out about scientology beliefs through south park as well, and I know that some scientologists were "enlightened" if you like, through watching the show in much the same way.
Man, South Park! The only thing is because it's a satirical cartoon it's easy to ignore, when in reality they were right, at least about the hat part.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON yup, and I was watching raptly, because my cool big brother was showing it to me, haha! He had come back from uni and was showing me all sorts of shows he'd gotten into, I really respected him, so wanted to give them a good shot. He'd left the church by this time, so it was interesting for him to see my reaction as well, haha :'d
I first heard of a seer stone when the church came out about it in 2015? Or 2016? I can’t remember. I’ve been a member my entire life (35 years) and served a mission. Took religious classes at BYU and graduated seminary as a teenager. Never ever heard of a seer stone.
Didn’t realize what the seer stone was actually used for until my faith crisis last fall. Changes the narrative a bit doesn’t it?
It definitely does!
I was batized a Mormon in 1971 and remained a member until over a year ago, then resigned my membership.
Not once during church were we ever told about the peepstone in a hat story.
We were shown the false illustration of Smiths (alleged) translation and told the he did it "by the power of God".
This was yet one of the countless points of sanitized church history that have them scrambling to be reproduced in recent essays.
The god of Mormonism appears to be a recidivist flip flopper.
Thanks for sharing that!
I learned about the rock and the hat from my brother who learned it from South Park I believe. This was around 2005. I really wasn't sure I believed it, or even if it was true if it was a big deal.
I didn't realize the implications (that he believed in magic).
Thanks for sharing!
Image at 7:02 like you said shows none of the tools used and added two things he didn’t need like uncovered plates and a candle. They say the seer stone glowed like a cellphone in the hat and stay illuminated until he got the translation correct. It’s sad they’re going to blame the “artist’s interpretation” and gaslight the next generation, like the current, when they say they weren’t told the true history.
Yes!!! But as they are the ones that publish the image, they can’t blame artistic interpretation, because they are responsible for publishing it! That’s not to say they won’t try, they’ll blame anything but the Q15!
Back when the joseph smith papers were made public and in the ensign around that time included a picture of this brown striped rock as a TBM I was TOTALLY OK with this. It made sense to me and I accepted it without blinking. I didn't even take a moment to consider the change in narrative was significant BECAUSE I had a TESTIMONY that he was a TRUE prophet of god. Being anchored with this testimony I was even able to be OK with the church now openly admitting Joseph was a polygamist. I thought "IT'S ABOUT TIME!" "WHY WAS THIS KEPT UNDER WRAPS" I also felt it irrelevant because I had a TESTIMONY. I KNEW the church was TRUE. My testimony was an inoculation to any threats.
Even years after I left the church, I saw South Park with the rock in the hat and I thought "That's just exaggeration for comedic effect." I still didn't realize it was part of the history until years later.
As a child in the RLDS ( CofC ) it was readily discussed in my family
i was in my early 20s when i first read about seer stones. i was talking about things with my sister in my 30s. when i was 35 i read shadow and reality and that's when my shelf finally came crashing down. mormons are never at a loss to find ways to prop up their fairy tale religion.
did you miss anything? treasure seeking revelation in the d&c, white stone given to everyone and earth a giant seer stone (d&c), the name gazlem (gaze) in d&c and b/m, russell nelson quotes address all believers in christ in the ensign about rock in the hat, d&c and other scriptures changed with fast and furious wild abandon to help hide the truth.
Thanks for sharing!
The image from 7:10 is from a children's book published in 2002. Of course they show the golden plates. The new narrative with the seer stone wasn't introduced until 2015.
Still doesn't mean the lie is excusable, they should've been honest from day one, not from the point where the internet forced their hand!
Shamefully, I only found out about the seer stone in the last few years...
No shame in that, it wasn't exactly made available to you!
Keep up the good work Nemo
Will do!
So did JS not use the Gold plates to write the BoM? (I've been less active awhile) so he looked in a hat and then sribed. So the church is changing heaps since I've been away.
This is the new narrative yes!
I learnt about the seer stones well after being baptized. It was one of many things that I was not told about. Missionaries are taught to teach half the truth
South Park is when I learned the stone in the hat translation.
I learned about the rock in a hat method in 2023 - after 50 years as a true believing member.😳
If the urim and thummim were provided why did he need the rock in the first place?
My point exactly
Exactly! The church’s argument is “for convenience” but I call BS on that!
Why were the plates even needed?
@@davidhepple touché
@@davidhepple Apparently they weren't if all he needed was a rock in a hat.
I joined the church in 1975 and served a mission from 1976-1978. I never learned about the “rock in the hat” translation until a non-member told me in 2018. I disputed that story and said that it was anti Mormon propaganda. Only after researching the work from Fawn Brody, Grant Palmer, Dan Vogel and podcasts in 2022 did I learn the truth. My wife and I resigned our membership in 2023.
Do you think that using inaccurate paintings of the translation in the video is a big deal, since they showed the rock in the hat method later on?
Later on in this video? The fact the church has had the rock in its possession and known about this for a long time, makes any misrepresentation a big deal, because it is dishonest.
Can't believe millions of us have fallen for this stuff!!! I'm gone......
Did Moses use the staff to trick people into paying him money to find them buried treasure?
Good point!
I've recently been reading the book _By Means of the Urim & Thummim_ by James W Lucas and Jonathan E Neville, which argues that the stone in the hat theory isn't reliable and directly contradicts many other sources, especially those of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. I don't think Joseph Smith used a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon, and a more thorough analysis of the historical records seems to indicate such in my opinion.
Ironically, I think the Church had it more right before they adopted the seer stone theory and depictions.
What he was doing was channeling. He was a skryer. The Bible warns to avoid those who peep and mutter. He was doing this to try to earn money before his whole religion thing. He called it the seer stone to try to gain credibility. I feel betrayed by Joseph's many lies, and then by the many lies of every so called prophet that followed him.
I grieve for my family that remains Mormon.
If I’ve studied correctly, the word SEER in Smith’s day had nothing to do with the same term used in the Old Testament. A seer WAS a person who used a rock or stone in a hat to find treasure or objects of value. There were other seers in Smith’s day yet they are not considered religious Mormon prophets. Why not? The answer to me is easy: these individuals were not considered religious. They were only known as money seekers claiming to find treasure with their rocks and hats. To try and build a believable bridge of using objects provided by God from unrelated biblical accounts shows the premeditated lies concocted by the Mormon Church’s leaders over the last 200 years. Such evil…such intent.
Although produced by bureaucrats on the Church payroll, the video cited by Nemo is completely inaccurate with respect to the translation of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith and his primary scribe Oliver Cowdery repeatedly and consistently testified that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates using the Nephite interpreter device (sometimes called the Urim and Thummim) which was deposited in the Hill Cumorah with the plates. Critical examination in their full historical context of the accounts of Joseph using a seer stone in a hat to translate shows these accounts to be late, secondhand or otherwise completely unreliable.
What have Egyptologists said about those characters from the gold plates?
Learned it as a kid from parents in early 1970s...
I found out about the rock in hat thing last year.
This for me is a major shelf item, primarily because I taught and bore testimony for two years regarding a literal translation of golden plates, this was the narrative that I was taught as a missionary to teach. As we learn in this video, that narrative is completely false. The church was and is totally okay with teaching this false narrative
Honest in your dealings with your fellow men
Looks like our profits and apostles need to have their temple recommends taken away
Unfortunately I was 56.
I'm so sorry, were you born into the church?
At the age of 45 I learned about the stone in a hat trick, just last year. I haven't been an active member for over twenty years, but was nonetheless surprised. The spin used to buffer the idea is gross. I am endlessly disappointed in the church and it shady false narratives.
Suggested Reading (y'know, by some random viewer whose avatar is Dr. Nick from The Simpsons:) Manufacturing Consent, by Noam Chomsky.
I’ll have a look, any man that gets everyone to say hi to him, is a man I can trust!
Joseph Smith used a morrion crystal. It was a witch's peep stone. Joseph was a charismatic bewitching person as described by people who knew him. He was a warlock. That is why the Book of Mormon is not a history book but an excellent fabrication.
Are you on tiktok nemo?! Would love to see you on there if not!! 🙂
I'm not, I wouldn't even know where to begin!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON The tiktok community on there is crazy like thousands of us.. I dont make vids but watch vids and answer comments & call out lies. The videos are really good, id recommend making an account just to watch at the very least, I know some people use TT to grow their youtubes too. Would love to see you on there even just as a commenter! =] Your so insightful, full of verifiable facts, polite, & straight to the point.
Wow. These Mormon videos not only help invalidate Joseph smith amd the Book of Mormon, it’s some how doing the same for the bible. Comparing seer stones with Moses serpent on a stick. Makes it sound just a crazy and therefore the bible must be made up too. Great job church.
That's what they USA only defense they have is when they're put into a corner the only argument they have is false comparison fabrication and making us up as the only lasted effort defense that's the thing that's frustrating me most about dealing with these cults the use of low blow dishonest false comparison ariton attempt to try to protect themselves they are defending themselves even more and exposing their ignorance of weakness showing they can't get out of it they can't get out of the corner there stabbed dead therefore they got up play coward and use someone as a shield.
Nemo, I love your content. PLEASE get you wonky eye fixed!
That's an ugly thing to say to someone. So unnecessary. Why not just take him as he is. Getting his eye worked on is his perogative.
You suggest if Joseph was treasure-digging with his seer stones it was illegal. Your stated reason for this suggestion is that New York law made it illegal to be “pretending to discover where lost goods may be found”. So the law you quote didn’t differentiate between seeking treasure or other lost objects, nor did it make it illegal to be able to find lost objects, only to pretend that you could. You seem to be doing what you accuse the church of doing, e.g. presenting in a biased, incomplete, or inaccurate way so as to persuade others to agree with your view.
But it is the law the church quotes in its essay that Joseph seemed to be called up for breaking. So it’s not my suggestion.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON You often miss the point in your attempt to find fault with the church and here is another example of that. My comment isn't about the source of a quote - it is about the way you use it, which results in an illogical suggestion. You have to learn to take more responsibility for your statements - many of which don't stand up very well to scrutiny in my view.
And the way I use it is the same way the church does. The church is the one that makes the suggestion, not me, and they are also the ones who quote the law. I linked the source in the description, feel free to read it!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Taking quotes and references from others and using them in your video means that the context in which you use them comes under scrutiny. YOU suggest in YOUR video that the church has deliberately excluded (in their cartoon video) reference to Joseph Smith treasure digging because it was illegal. Yet you provide no evidence to seriously support that suggestion of the church's motive. It might be more credible to say the church possibly avoided mentioning treasure-digging as some may nowadays consider it strange or, worse still, dishonest. However, YOU (not the church) suggest it was excluded from the video by the church because it was an illegal act - and treasure-digging was not an illegal act, so why mention it that way ? The argument you are using here (that the church is avoiding mentioning an illegal use of a seer stone) is flawed. It is not the church which is saying why something is missing from its cartoon video .... that is your work and your responsibility.
LIke the new logo
What I would like to know is: What are your religious beliefs or preferences. Most people who go on the internet and try to tear are afraid to put out their own personal belief system. They don't want done to them what they are trying to do to others. They just don't have the "Cajones" to do this since they know someone will try to pick at their own belief system. So I'm goig to ask you flat out. Are you willing to share your own belief system and do a program on it? Heck, you can do it now on this thread! I"d really don't think you will because of the "Cajones" factor!
Your fixation on my genitals aside, no, I won't. My personal belief system has no bearing on, or relevance to, the objective truth of the claims of the church.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON it's because you don't want people to tear you apart. You want other people to tear Mormons apart but when it comes to your own personal beliefs you're too sacred and you're too much of a wuss to let everyone know what you think because you'll have a bunch of people disagree with you. And that means that the people who were on your side thinking that Mormon suck, some of them will also think that you suck too! And you're probably too much of a pansy to hack it. You'll want to go into your safe space and start crying because it was too much for your system.
There were no plates.
When I found out a couple years ago that the seer stone was news to most Mormons, I was baffled. I knew about this years ago. How could they not know? But, I was raised half in the church, half out, and in an era where most people took what the "big brethren" said with a grain of salt.
Honestly, you people take them way too seriously. You follow them like lemmings to the edge of a cliff, and when they say "jump", you jump. Then, you complain that you were deceived. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. Take responsibility for your own lives. All the scriptures say "Don't trust the arm of flesh."
The church used to be a lot of fun, and you really felt a part of it. I hear people talking about the church today, and I can hardly believe we are talking about the same thing. I guess, in reality, we aren't.
Somehow I managed to figure this out on my own, that a lot of this was lies and deception. I actually believe in the Holy Ghost. I believe in personal revelation. I listened to it tell me what was true and what was BS. The gospel of Jesus Christ is true, but the church has corrupted it, beyond all recognition.
I know it's easier to sit in the back of the bus and let somebody do the driving for you. You can blame the bus driver when he drives you off the cliff. But, it's still your life. Why trust it to somebody who has demonstrably lied to you?
A man sticks his head in a hat, and translates a Bible using magical stones. No small wonder true Christians compare the Book of Mormon with the fairy tale "Jack and the Bean Stalk", where magical beans were the entire theme.
The Book of Mormon is just about as reliable as a fairy tale, when we consider the fact that there is no sound archeology that the cities, people, animals, coins, or any other artifact evidence ever existed. Not a sliver of evidence.
this guy is lying. The witnesses reported seeing Joseph Smith using a Urim and Thumim which is two stones in a frame for most of the translation. Later he could use just one stone or a seers stone. He put a stone in a hat because like the urim (which means lights) stone, and the 12 stones of the high priest of Israel, all of which like the urim and thumim were crystal, so the stones would light up. Thus they were used where there was little light or put them in a high hat to block light. Never did Joseph Smith just receive information without a devise to translate. Stones which light up are similar to a cell phone today. Cell phone use a crystal i.e. Silicon chip to transmit info and need to have light blocked to see the words of a text. Hey guy do some better research.
Best thing to do is read the Book of Mormon yourself and ask God your questions. Men can twist anything from all sides.
If the seer stones were of God then dust or moth wouldn’t ever corrupt them.
Take everything to God. Read for yourself.
I’ve been a member my entire life, I have done both of those things. God also blessed me with a mind and the ability to reason, so I see nothing wrong with using that too!
Hey, Jonny the Berean's were commended for searching scripture to see if what they were being taught matched up. The bible says the heart is wicked and Jesus says in Matt that out of the heart comes false witness. God wants us to reason not just feel:) hope you have a great day.
Why did the Church choose THIS gay sounding voice over for this cartoon? They reject gay people in the faith yet feature them in media such as this, I’m confused, who are they trying to appeal to?
I found out about the rock in a hat via ‘South Park’