This is one of my favorite quotes from the show. Another is from Lorne. "Anyone can hold a note. I can hold a note until the cows come home. But after a while, that's just noise. It's the notes that come after that make it music."
I have decided I want this to be my epitaph. Well it's either this or go replicate a note I once got from a dry cleaners to whom I sent a leather jacket that had been extensively stained with blood, beer and vomit that read 'It saddens us to return work that is so far from perfect'
In the end, nothing we do matters: The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself Yea, all which it inherit...shall dissolve, And like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. But I'd wager that what we do, against the grand scale of time, likewise does not matter. It might matter to us, right now at this moment, but ONLY for THIS moment. Gandhi said: “When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it...always!” I wonder truly what have we earned for all our efforts...existence seems like it's this perpetual stalemate. A long-term isometric exercise.
galactic85 I am with you. This scene was amazingly written and acted. I also like the more realistic approach to Kate's story arc conclusion. Not everyone is capable of accepting a supernatural world. Also even if you do, not everyone can deal with it being secret and how that can affect their everyday life. I wish the up-loader would have left in the whole scene so we can hear why Kate has faith.
@@oliversacco7320, I imagine it would have been different to schedule since she was doing Law & Order. I don't read the comics, but I have no problem with people who do. I chose to write my own fan fic spin off...on Connor.
Years later there came a companion piece to this - th-cam.com/video/GOaVJufPqUU/w-d-xo.html Together they show who I want to be, not who I am but who I want to be
That's why Angel is the most COMPLETE hero out of the whole Buffy/Angelverse and why Spike doesn't hold a candle to him. In fact Spike is always little brother to Angel's big brother and he always follows Angel's footsteps in love, revenge, redemption etc.
@@2Good2BeTrue45 Well, Spike IS 100 years younger than Angel and didn't do nearly as much evil as Angelus did, and Angel had already had his soul for over 100 years.
The Kate-Angel relationship was the most realistic relationship on the show. Angelus killed thousands of people , Kate was a police officer and her attitude towards him was very realistic. She lost her anger towards him at the end of season 2. A shame the relationship couldn't have been explored further.
The Brilliance of this scene is Joss Whedon voices his own true opinion on life and faith through Angel, But at the same time acknowledges the other sides validity through Kate when she says that she believes there is a higher power by pointing out that she never invited Angel into her apartment. Brilliant
Not to ruin it but everything is orchestrated and there’s an easy explanation which is to say, Kate must have been dead for a brief period so the invite needed, became null and void.
@@Lava91point0 my thinking was always that in the Buffyverse it's only one someone is truly dead that their soul leaves their body, and only then does the invitation rule stop working. I'm basing this off the fact that it's established that when someone dies their soul leaves the universe and goes to another dimension. And bringing the soul back after that requires magic like angels curse or buddy's resurrection. Ultimately it's up to the viewer to decide how they see it.
@@Lava91point0 yes I remember, but does that not also strongly indicate that this happened exactly as the episode implies? The episode suggests that the powers intervened. I always assumed they somehow intervened to prevent the invitation rule working. One could even choose to believe jasmine had a role in it.
there's a reason this show stays in the minds of the fans who went through Angel's journey with him since the Buffy days. this insane show had way more heart, revealed more about the true nature of the world and our place in it then any other i've ever come across. i'm sure we're all pissed at how it ended at the height of its powers in season 5 but...the way it went out? was so damn true to the spirit of the show, that i think a 'neater' ending would just not have had as big an impact, or left us with that spine-tingling sensation as when Angel utters the final line of the entire series: "let's go to work", which to me is a callback to THIS moment where he finally understands his broader mission. goddamn i love this show.
Could. Ot have said it better myself, Angel to me is the pinnacle of what a tv show is meant to be. One of David Greenewalt and Joss Whedon's greatest work of all time
The best part of season 5 was Illyria holding Wesley in her arms as he is dying. Even the people on set were moved to tears. He and "Fred" expressed the fundamental truth of our existence in that moment, in 3 words, "I. Love. You." And it is so often the very last thing we say before dying, which goes to show it is the very meaning of life. Because it is the one and only thing we wish to express in our final moments.
I remember watching this scene when I was a child, and it's stayed with me ever since. Now I'm 18, heading to college in the summer with my heart set on being a counsellor- all because of this.
@@princelevi3733 Connor wasn't the problem, the writing was awful. I think Angel become more human, more connected to the world than any other character, after becoming a father. Like Fred said, Darla gave him something he always wanted, but could never have. Angel, according to Cordelia, had, the biggest heart, it was his son that enlarged it in the first place, and broked it also. Yes, he was in love, but love for a woman was different, love for a son, was everything. I enjoyed the story of Angel and Darla as parents, but they did such a mess in season 4. Connor was salvageable, until Jasmine took control of his mind and amplified all the bad things in there. I'm rewatching the show now, for the fourth time 😊, and I must admit, season 4 it's so weak compared to the others, but still, holds his own. I mean, Angel had amazing writing over all.
@@CrisIonita Well said. And really **s4 spoilers** Evil Cordy was way worse to me than Connor. Especially from an acting perspective, Charisma seemed so not into any of it and made Lilah's death feel wasteful
"if nothing that we do matters, then all that matters is what we do" I think this is one of my favorite quotes of all time! It's simple and yet brilliant, it's complexity is at any level you choose it to be, wraped togeather in a beautiful turn of phrase. I think it has the quality and merit to be put forward in any discussion of existentialism or ethics
Yes! I use this scene in my Philosophy classes when we cover existentialism. I also use the scene from Part 1 where he talks to Holland Manners in the elevator. They are the 2 sides of the existential coin.
Same. This is the single one quote from a TV show or any visual media that I would want tattooed on my body. I think it summarizes secular humanism perfectly.
Did anyone come here to actually hear Kate tell Angel, “I never invited you in.” That used to be such a rush in being hopeful to the higher ‘powers that be ‘ in recognition to a vampire with a soul that is seeking redemption for centuries of sin? I’ll stop being Anne Rice lol
@@victorpradha9946I took it as Angel is wrong there is a grand plan and even a god that cares about goodness that’s how despite Kate being dead a miracle happened when Angel brought her back.
I love that Russian Lady too this Epiphany is sort of my mantra I try to live by these words I also like what he says the Connor in the last season I think it was the last season lol
Actually, Tim Minear wrote this, he mentioned recently in a podcast. But it's a good bet that the awesomest lines were written by Joss. Most of them were. :)
It's things like this that prove that everything really does matter and that there's a greater reason why. "Nothing matters" is such a strong statement and it doesn't allow for any exceptions. And yet, the soul still has to force one in because by nature it can't accept that nothing matters because It just doesn't feel right, or true, to the deepest part of ourselves. "People shouldn't suffer." Why? Bc it MATTERS.
At this point in my life I'm understanding Angel like this. As Liam, his father had a low opinion and expectation from him. He was aching for love and admiration. But he continiously failed. Thus, he drank all his emotions away. As Angelus, he wanted to prove that he was worth something even if it meant to become the most evil vampire ever. Being a demon at its core helps a lot. Then as Angel, he wanted to be recognized for his fight against his sins. Righting his wrongs. Earning redemption for being a past ''weak''man (Liam). But the truth is. He had to forgive himself and love himself for trying to be better as Angel. I wondered if he ever did... His redemption did not need to come from the outside actually. He needed it from the inside more than the outside.
The point is, why should the perspective of "in the greater scheme, in the big picture" matter? In the greater scheme, we are tiny self-aware lumps of organic molecules scurrying around on a wet dustball, hurtling around an ongoing hydrogen bomb explosion in the outer reaches of an unremarkable galaxy in a universe that doesn't give a shit about any of it. Why is that perspective even relevant, let alone important? But we are conscious and self-aware. And as a result we have choices; and we suffer. And when others like us suffer, we can feel it too. And often, we can do things to reduce and alleviate that suffering; sometimes to even bring joy. That moment to moment exercise of consciousness and empathy, that's what really matters. Who gives a crap about "the greater scheme" or "the big picture"? Just be good. Now. That's all that really matters.
But the big picture can take you out of (ir make you lose focus of) the small picture, which was Angel's job - to help the little people. That is the point, don't get so focused on the big stuff that you forget the rest. Which Angel realized he was doing.
@@CurlyFromTheSwirly Yep! Buffy was the one who worked to save the world (the big picture), but Angel realized his job (just saving one person at a time) was equally as important.
@@Lady-Seashell-Bikini Cause everyone's struggle matters. What good would saving the world be if people were left in trouble. I mean saving the world is basically metaphor for our struggles.
This is great, and I'm one of those people who immediately "squee'd" when I saw this on big-time teevee. Buffy/Angel (since they shared a "universe" and "show runner" it is the same thing) is the best and most important series in the last 30 years.
Technically, the show runners were not the same. If I remember right, David Greenwalt was more the one in charge of Angel (with Whedon's approvals) for the 1st 3 seasons. While Joss did Buffy. In season 4 Greenwalt had left & Whedon was more focused on Firefly. Whatever the case, the universe was always under Whedon's umbrella. But sibling shows don't always have rhe same headwritter.
This is kind of when I fell in love with the show. Before this moment Angel (and the series around him) was darker and broodier. After this, he allowed himself to lighten up and be funny.
Angel was like two different shows....I wonder if it was in danger of getting cancelled(from what I remember it was always on the chopping block), and thats why they closed so many storylines up, particularly a lot of Wolfram and Haart stories
This is beautiful, and very interesting, in that it is basically an ode to humanism, a description of the deepest meaning of humanism-- delivered by a creature who is, technically, not human. [Though he is in the humanist sense, I think.]
Sure Joss wrote the good stuff, for buffy. But Tim minear, and David Greenwalt really took over the second season with an a gusto. Which goes to show, when tim Minear and david left for the fourth season, it really sucked. One of the worst seasons. So i give credit to Tim. Sure Joss created it. But David and Tim really did well with Angel.
As did Marti Noxon with Buffy. All three still say unprompted that Joss was still involved more than people think and that both shows were his babies. Joss wrote this line along with most of the frequently quoted lines in pretty much everything he's worked on. He gets the credit. Absolutely, the other people involved should also be credited for the shows, but I don't get this trend of slamming Joss Whedon and giving credit for all the good work he did to other people.
Katharine Eavan, that's the thing. Nobody really puts Wierdon down. Everyone worships that idiot. And he did something great with Buffy, but never put the same love into his 2nd child.
Sad to know this was Kate's last scene, I really wanted to see a romance between them, but sadly there were complications that hindered that possibility. Still it's good to see they parted on good terms.
@Kagereneko you're right, not every relationship has to be romantic. I wanted Angel and Faith to be couple, because they both connect as they both seek to make amends. Seeing them together as friends is enough.
This to me sums up everything. Its the meaning of life. Whenever i feel down this is something i look towards to give inspiration that im not alone that there are other people that get it.
This has always been one of my favorite quotes because it crystallizes true morality. If you're doing the right thing just for an ultimate reward (or to avoid ultimate punishment), your actions are meaningless. If you do it because someone is keeping score then it's just a game. True morality comes from doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do! And that's not a game. That's life.
But how do you know it is the right thing to do if there are no results to prove that? Who establishes these non-pragmatic standards for 'morality', may I ask?
@@cmm5542 Some people would say that's up to each individual's conscience to decide. Pragmatists would really on some objective measure to judge whether or not an action is good, but I think that undermines the idea of morality. I would say we can derive a commonly agreed upon morality by following rational first principles. Morality is about what is right or wrong regardless of the "results". Killing Hitler in the crib is still wrong even if it "results" in millions saved, etc. But the most important point is that it's not decided by some invisible, powerful sky daddy making arbitrary decisions.
@@sirbruce70 Personally, that sounds like the absolute definition of human hubris to me. Look at us, we humans are so great we have this innate knowledge of what is/isn't right without ANYTHING to tell us? These fantastically moral and altruistic beings that act rightly for NO motivation whatsoever? Human history utterly disproves that. In what way is some other human telling me what is right less arbitrary than some divinity doing so? At least the divinity might have omniscient awareness of how doing the right thing today might have positive results one hundred, one thousand, or an eternity from now; or doing the wrong thing negative results. Another human being or my own 'conscience' won't. That's even assuming all human beings HAVE consciences. How do you prove that? Suppose I were about to kill the man who murdered my sister, and you tell me, 'Don't do that. It's morally wrong.' In the absence of any proven negative consequences to revenge killing, or positive consequences to mercy, why on EARTH would I listen to you? What would make you any the less arbitrary and controlling than 'some invisible sky daddy' in this instance? Fortunately, human history ALSO demonstrates the negative consequences of revenge and the positive consequences of mercy, so I would know the right thing to do. Whether I would actually do it is another question your and Angel's position doesn't answer - why do people continue to do things they KNOW are wrong, for whatever reason, if 'all that matters is what we do?' That never stopped anyone from doing evil. Many evildoers 'do' evil for precisely that reason: to feel they matter. They impacted the world. Whether the impact is good or bad doesn't matter to them, if there are no consequences.
@@cmm5542 Unfortunately that is beyond the scope of a simple TH-cam conversation. First you will need some foundational college-level courses in Logic, Ethics, Psychology, Sociology, Anthropology, and Political Science.
This scene really touches the soul. And for good reason! There’s a deep Truth to it that something inside of us recognises and understands, pointing our hearts and minds towards what really makes a difference in our lives and in the lives of others; “all that matters is what we do”. And yet at the same time realising that none of it matters, and in a funny way that isn’t at all nihilistic, it’s almost like life not having an intrinsic meaning actually makes it more worthwhile because we get to DECIDE what that meaning is and discover it for ourselves! Much like a talented artist has a blank canvas with free reign yet we as the artist have been asking why paint at all? What’s the purpose of painting?? And children playing, flowers blossoming, and birds singing will show you that it is the simple joy of painting (finding joy in what you do and who you become). Life itself is it’s own purpose!!
Sometimes, the things that effect you on the deepest level are those that should've been obvious to you or seemed obvious to everyone else and you just didn't get it until one moment later down the line.
@@elizabethg9722 I think part of that was because she turned against Angel once she learned what he really was. I bet if she had formally joined Angel Investigations, she would have been just as loved as the rest of the team.
Awesome quote by Angel! It's definitely one of my favorite from the show. It's such a shame it's the last episode of Kate. She started to become very interesting...
I think this is an interesting contrast to Buffy. In Buffy, the enemies were commanders with grand plans and great ambitions. The Master, Angel, the Mayor, Glory, Willow, and the First Evil were all this way, and to various degrees they wanted control of the Hellmouth, i.e. it was often a conflict over resources. This ended with the destruction of the armies of her final adversary and she and her army could live in peace. I know the comics exist, but those are not featuring here. Angel shows a different side of reality. His was the daily grind of the investigator. His enemies were not the grand generals leading their armies into open warfare, but the slow oozing manipulative evils like thar found in the hearts of men. Wolfram & Hart employ normal human being like Lila and they filter corruption and misery across hundreds of people in thousands of ways. It is a miasmic infiltration with each and every victory being the slow process of filtering out the refuse while becoming mired and entangled with it. Thus it is the never ending war. World War II ended with the death in the death of many of the upper Nazi elite, and so did Buffy's wars in Sunnydale. The war against the criminal and the corrupt is a never ending conflict, and this is epitomized in Angel.
I missed Kate in the later seasons. I wish the show hadn't gone the Cangel route (and then had it blown badly by getting possesed!Cordy sleep with Connor) and instead developed Angel and Kate's friendship into a romance by the fifth season.
This has stayed with me, too, but not with the power of "Birthday". You can wish you'd taken a left here, or a right, but you can't know that your life would be better or worse. You have to stick by your choices, stop fretting over the past, & make choices now. 💗
Great speech that can pretty much be applied to everything we do in our lives. I also love Gunn's speech about predestination and whether we should fight or just give up: "Look, Monochrome can yap all he wants about No-Name's cosmic plan, but here's a little something I picked up rubbing mojos these past few years - the final score can't be rigged. I don't care how many players you grease that last shot always comes up a question mark. But here's the thing. You never know when you're taking it. It could be when you're duking it out with the Legion of Doom or crossing the street, deciding where to have a brunch. So you just treat it all like it was up to you - the world on the balance. Because you never know when it is."
See, I feel like if anything Angel was the one who had actually had understandable reasons for agreeing to the W&H takeover when, in any circumstances less dyer than the one in that moment with Connor, he probably wouldn't have. And I think he had kind of shut down in part because he was the one most uncomfortable with the level of gray morality he'd found himself in. So if anything, it was less that he'd turned his back or been corrupted or anything, and more that he was *feeling* like that was what he had done, and needed to get to a point of accepting the choice he had made for the necessity it was at the time and believe that he could still fight the good fight regardless of the circumstances. That's why You're Welcome wasn't about them finding a way to get out of the W&H deal, but rather about Angel getting his sense of fight back while still being there :) But yeah, the crazy amount of loss he'd been through by that point also surely contributed a great deal to his just going through the motions for a lot of s5 😔
David is such a great actor in my opinion I wish he could be in more shows because honestly I can't think of any other shows he's in besides buffy and the spinoff angel
Exactly. And what's even scarier is, Angelus lived by the exact same principle Angel is stating here: 'all that matters is what we do.' To Angelus, doing evil mattered. To Angel, doing good matters. Without an ultimate purpose, there's nothing to say which view is actually right.
Ladies, Gentlemen, Non-Binaries, and +, we are presented here with the problem of nihilism - and it is demolished with understated elegance in approximately one minute. Now, let's go to work.
Another clip on the same theme th-cam.com/video/GOaVJufPqUU/w-d-xo.html If my epitaph reads 'An Idiot to Tried His Best to Be Kind' - that wouldn't be a bad thing
but, to only just simply do little things (because that's supposedly what's really, truly matters), isn't that in itself kinda depressing? isn't that in the end also proven to be just meaningless, in the bigger, grand scheme of everything?
That would be the nihilist viewpoint. The point here is that meaning can exist in a meaningless universe, if we perceive it. It's existential absurdism. And yes, when the universe dies of heat death in the far, far future, any of that meaning disappears, but that by no means lessons or removes the meaning it has in the moment. And in a meaningless universe, just sitting around, doing nothing, would be completely consistent with the universe we're living in. Having the notion to give meaning, give yourself a reason to get up off your ass every morning and do _something_ productive, even in a meaningless universe, should be entirely uplifting.
Angel doesn't mean that you should only do little things. The point is that if nothing matters, then your viewpoint and actions make up your entire universe. Do as much good as you can, but if you can't save the world, that's alright because you saved someone else's entire world. The large act of kindness are great, but don't dismiss the small acts of kindness either. The goal is to approach every moment of your life with kindness and love.
Why did Kate leave just as her and Angel were becoming friends again?😥 Plus, wouldn't have minded if they got together at some point, I liked them better than Cangel.
Because the episode before this one the police force fired Kate because they thought she was losing it been obsessed with vanpires and demans and of course there r no monsters to their eyes so they thoight kate was crazy. Then afters Kate tried to kill herself but angel saved her then Kate moved on but no idea where tho
I know that the real reason was that Kate's actor moved on to Law & Order, but in my mind, Kate never truly saw Angel as a friend after learning he was a vampire. Sure, she learned to forgive him and let go of her hatred, but she didn't really want to see him again. She probably moved away from LA to find a new purpose.
Angel and Kate should have smashed at least once before Elizabeth Rohm left the show to go do Law and Order. And don't tell me that they couldn't because he would have turned into psycho vamp. Umm no I don't think he would because in order for him to turn into psycho vamp Angelist he would have to be completely in love with Kate like he was with Buffy and I don't think he was in love with her like that. There was definitely a connection with them but it wasn't a I'm in love with you one but more of a I wanna have a possible one night stand and let's go our separate ways in the morning kinda if connection.
Homeless people are wasting time begging for money when they could be volunteering in the community or creating businesses instead. Let’s change that with the Universal Basic Income. Or by abolishing money. Let’s give everyone over the age of 13 a guaranteed minimum income of $1,500ish USD/month! Guyygd
Unless I'm misunderstanding this is sadomasochism. One is taking pleasure in the hopelessness of oneself and those around you. Those small acts of kindness is a reaffirmation of the hopelessness everyone is in. Is this analogy correct?: Everyone is on a giant ship that is going nowhere and has no ultimate purpose. However, people on that ship can still experience happiness, joy and sadness. And that as a human being living on that ship, one should find great joy in doing small acts of kindness because that one act of kindness is worth so much in a hopeless meaningless condition. That is, the ship has no end purpose and is not going anywhere. In this situation that act of finding happiness is a suffering in itself. That is, it reinforces the conditions in which the act is taking place in. What I mean to say is to find a happiness in an ultimately sorrowful situation is actually to find happiness in sorrow. Do I have this right?
+Obiyer I wouldn't say that it's sadomasochism. It would mean that one brings harm by being kind. It means finding happiness despite the sorrow around you, to realise that you are the one that can create happiness in your and others life. And that if everyone acted kind people would create amazing things just because they would want so, not because of some threat from god or some higher purpose. Because people ask: "what if god doesnt exist? what if there is no purpose to our life" this is the answer. Even if there is no purpose (there can be, we don't know) you still can make one :)
+Obiyer It's more existentialism than anything else. The epiphany is that he doesn't need any sort of outside meaning in order to enjoy his life, and things don't need to have some effect on the big picture to be worthwhile. It's not sadomasochism. It's realizing that hope can be found in smaller places.
Actually it's nihilistic optimism. It has nothing to do with enjoying suffering, simply with accepting that there is no greater meaning to life and your existence, but that doesn't mean you can't live a good life with what you have. To quote another good show: "Life is just a pile of good things and bad things. The good things don’t always soften the bad things, but vice versa, the bad things don’t always spoil the good things and make them unimportant."
@@pandagirl42087 Actually, it's the very opposite of nihilism. Nihilism is the view that nothing matters, ever. There'll never be any event, any belief, any action, that will ever have meaning. This is, as Freecell82 says, existentialism, though Joss and co throw in a good helping of absurdism along with it. The idea that existence itself is meaning, even if it has no greater meaning beyond existence (and our ability to give it meaning within our own brain/consciousness). Absurdism takes it to another level of, even if the universe has no meaning, we are not only able, but obligate to give ourselves meaning: it is literally part of our nature to give our lives meaning in a meaningless universe. And in a meaningless universe, giving ourselves meaning, and placing meaning and value on other lives, is absurd yet beautifully poetic. And giving ourselves meaning in a meaningless universe makes that meaning, whatever it is, the most meaningful thing in existence. "The smallest act of kindest, is the greatest thing in the world."
Obiyer, no, it only means that you/we should do the right thing even if there is no reward. If nothing we do matters, than the only thing that matters is (the integrity of) what we do!
This quote implies the opposite. The smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world. For example, you're on a trail and you run into a person who hurt themself. In that moment, you're interaction with that person and how you act is the most important thing you could possibly do. And the same applies in the next moment. And the next.
Except that's not how the "heaven" and "hell" ideas are used in the Buffyverse. When characters talk about hell, they're talking about hellish *dimensions* . Buffy sending Angel to hell wasn't her literally killing him and sending his soul to some karmic retribution; the whole reason he was able to come back is that he lived, he just got sent to a particularly torturous other dimension, of which there are presumably an endless array, some being pleasant and others being horrific, hence being called hell. *Dying* is a whole other thing, and my reading of the Buffyverse afterlife is that it doesn't have to be stagnate, it's NOT based on any reward or punishment, and is primarily dictated by each soul's level of peace (or lack thereof). Buffy was in what felt to her to have been a heaven-like state not because she had "been rewarded", but because she had died protecting those she loved most and the world at large; she had died at peace with herself and her circumstances, so of course her soul, wherever it had lived on, was warm and content. The ghost in Buffy's 'I Only Have Eyes for You', in contrast, was haunted not because he was being externally punished, but because his soul couldn't forgive *himself* for what he had done, and then once he finally could, he was able to be at peace too. So Angel's epiphany here is absolutely consistent with both the philosophy and mechanics of the Buffyverse; just because they use the terms "heaven" and "hell" doesn't mean there was ever any implication that there was some karmic scoreboard.
As someone with a philosophy degree, Angel's 'epiphany' was SO disappointing! I was expecting some kind of universal logic here, but instead I got one of the THREE main and equally valid positions on nihilist existentialism that have been been (and will continue to be) debated for centuries. This didn't settle ANYTHING. If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do - works for intellectual individuals who care more about 'meaning' than practical pupose. Which is very few people. If nothing matters, do whatever works in the moment (which is generally something that would be considered 'wrong' if anything DID matter) - is the pragmatic side of the equation. Which is far more popular in the real world than Angel's view. If nothing we do matters, we might as well all be dead - this is the position of Sartre and those who actually want to find the purpose of existence itself, not the acts that make it up. All three positions have different arguments going for them - and that's leaving out all the philosophical positions that claim existence DOES have some kind of meaning or purpose! Angel simply cannot claim here that he's found the answer for everyone as to why they should do the right thing. He's simply picked the position that most appeals to him. He's gained greater self-awareness on what motivates HIM, but that's NOT an epiphany. I myself do not accept that philosophical standpoint, but prefer the one of Sartre (only fortunately I also acknowledge that what we do DOES matter in the end. So what we should do if it didn't matter becomes moot). This is not in any way a CONCLUSIVE answer to 'why we should do the right thing.' There are more rebuttals and counter-arguments to Angel's position - and any of the others - than you can shake a stick at. Philosophy is the one field that will never be exhausted, because the questions will never be fully answered.
Well, if you don't think the works of kierkegaard and camus on absurdism are deep then that's just, like, your opinion. Because that is what is referenced in this scene. Joss Whedon is an Absurdist and his work often deals with the thematic.
It’s deep in the sense that it has a lot of applications to your life. And I believe reminding ourselves that the most important thing is our choices and actions, that they have the greatest power not the future results but right here and now, and if that can bring meaning to someone’s life? I’d call that deep.
I know you wrote this some time ago, but I support your view. Angel is stating only one of multiple (and equally valid, and all open to critique and rebuttal) philosophical positions here. He is not in any way offering a definitive solution to the problem. Neither did Kierkegaard and Camus, by the way: that is not what philosophy does, as someone who has a degree in it. Philosophy explores and questions the big questions of life. It does not give us the answers. Everyone selects their own philosophical position to view life from, and Angel is entitled to his view here, but he hasn't answered anything for those of us who are not satisfied with absurdism as our life philosophy. There are a multitude of other positions, and this in no way establishes Angel (and Joss') as superior to any other. It was a huge disappointment to me that THIS was the 'epiphany' on the 'meaning' of life for Angel.
@@cmm5542 I mean, that's the point. While Buffy was concerned with saving the world and being "the chosen one", Angel was in the streets just saving one person at a time. Angel was obsessed with earning his redemption, but after Epiphany, he lost interest in redeeming himself and to simply do good for goodness' sake. Of course there are multiple philosophical positions, and this was the one that HE found motivating. There is no one philosophical position that explains a universal truth. Only those that apply to you.
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"If there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world." I love this line!
Me too
This is one of my favorite quotes from the show. Another is from Lorne. "Anyone can hold a note. I can hold a note until the cows come home. But after a while, that's just noise. It's the notes that come after that make it music."
I live my life by this qoute
"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." I want this tattooed somewhere on my body.
I have decided I want this to be my epitaph.
Well it's either this or go replicate a note I once got from a dry cleaners to whom I sent a leather jacket that had been extensively stained with blood, beer and vomit that read
'It saddens us to return work that is so far from perfect'
I have it on my hip
What a great idea! I've been trying to think of something to get tattooed in Enochian. That would be perfect!
I literally just thought about this seconds before finding your comment
In the end, nothing we do matters:
The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself
Yea, all which it inherit...shall dissolve,
And like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on, and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep.
But I'd wager that what we do, against the grand scale of time, likewise does not matter. It might matter to us, right now at this moment, but ONLY for THIS moment. Gandhi said:
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it...always!”
I wonder truly what have we earned for all our efforts...existence seems like it's this perpetual stalemate. A long-term isometric exercise.
And that ladies and gentlemen is why Angel is one of my favorite tv shows.
galactic85 I am with you. This scene was amazingly written and acted. I also like the more realistic approach to Kate's story arc conclusion. Not everyone is capable of accepting a supernatural world. Also even if you do, not everyone can deal with it being secret and how that can affect their everyday life. I wish the up-loader would have left in the whole scene so we can hear why Kate has faith.
I wish we would have seen Kate once more, later on. I imagine her doing security or something.
@ Galactic85 Agree with that 110% :)
@@CurlyFromTheSwirly she shows up in the comics but I agree with you
@@oliversacco7320, I imagine it would have been different to schedule since she was doing Law & Order.
I don't read the comics, but I have no problem with people who do.
I chose to write my own fan fic spin off...on Connor.
He fought even knowing he may not get a reward/redemption but because he has the power to help others and stand up for those who couldn't
Years later there came a companion piece to this - th-cam.com/video/GOaVJufPqUU/w-d-xo.html
Together they show who I want to be, not who I am but who I want to be
That's why Angel is the most COMPLETE hero out of the whole Buffy/Angelverse and why Spike doesn't hold a candle to him. In fact Spike is always little brother to Angel's big brother and he always follows Angel's footsteps in love, revenge, redemption etc.
@@2Good2BeTrue45 Well, Spike IS 100 years younger than Angel and didn't do nearly as much evil as Angelus did, and Angel had already had his soul for over 100 years.
The Kate-Angel relationship was the most realistic relationship on the show. Angelus killed thousands of people , Kate was a police officer and her attitude towards him was very realistic. She lost her anger towards him at the end of season 2. A shame the relationship couldn't have been explored further.
The Brilliance of this scene is Joss Whedon voices his own true opinion on life and faith through Angel, But at the same time acknowledges the other sides validity through Kate when she says that she believes there is a higher power by pointing out that she never invited Angel into her apartment. Brilliant
Not to ruin it but everything is orchestrated and there’s an easy explanation which is to say, Kate must have been dead for a brief period so the invite needed, became null and void.
@@Lava91point0 my thinking was always that in the Buffyverse it's only one someone is truly dead that their soul leaves their body, and only then does the invitation rule stop working.
I'm basing this off the fact that it's established that when someone dies their soul leaves the universe and goes to another dimension. And bringing the soul back after that requires magic like angels curse or buddy's resurrection.
Ultimately it's up to the viewer to decide how they see it.
@@ashcrimp I get that, but I mean, in season 4. Skip explains to them that almost everything since Angels curse was guided.
@@Lava91point0 yes I remember, but does that not also strongly indicate that this happened exactly as the episode implies? The episode suggests that the powers intervened. I always assumed they somehow intervened to prevent the invitation rule working.
One could even choose to believe jasmine had a role in it.
@@ashcrimp Yeah maybe
there's a reason this show stays in the minds of the fans who went through Angel's journey with him since the Buffy days. this insane show had way more heart, revealed more about the true nature of the world and our place in it then any other i've ever come across. i'm sure we're all pissed at how it ended at the height of its powers in season 5 but...the way it went out? was so damn true to the spirit of the show, that i think a 'neater' ending would just not have had as big an impact, or left us with that spine-tingling sensation as when Angel utters the final line of the entire series: "let's go to work", which to me is a callback to THIS moment where he finally understands his broader mission. goddamn i love this show.
Could. Ot have said it better myself, Angel to me is the pinnacle of what a tv show is meant to be. One of David Greenewalt and Joss Whedon's greatest work of all time
The best part of season 5 was Illyria holding Wesley in her arms as he is dying. Even the people on set were moved to tears. He and "Fred" expressed the fundamental truth of our existence in that moment, in 3 words, "I. Love. You." And it is so often the very last thing we say before dying, which goes to show it is the very meaning of life. Because it is the one and only thing we wish to express in our final moments.
and this "The smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world. "
And "the hardest thing in this world is to live in it"
@@krisstinawilson4461 God the Buffy verse was amazing
I think from all the Characters in the Buffyverse, Angel understood the best how the World works.
Well, him and Illyria.
I remember watching this scene when I was a child, and it's stayed with me ever since. Now I'm 18, heading to college in the summer with my heart set on being a counsellor- all because of this.
Is it going well?
Wow
Wow! Joss Whedon really changed a lot of lives (without any sarcasm) Mine, too.
God bless u
Where u now
"If nothing we do matters than all that matters is what we do." *Mike drop* How to build a better word In one sentence
Needless to say, 'Angel' still remains my favorite Joss Whedon show.
This shows is timeless
I think I like firefly more... but I live angel. Season 5 I think might be a perfect season. My favorite season of a show.
Until his son was born
@@princelevi3733 Connor wasn't the problem, the writing was awful. I think Angel become more human, more connected to the world than any other character, after becoming a father. Like Fred said, Darla gave him something he always wanted, but could never have. Angel, according to Cordelia, had, the biggest heart, it was his son that enlarged it in the first place, and broked it also. Yes, he was in love, but love for a woman was different, love for a son, was everything. I enjoyed the story of Angel and Darla as parents, but they did such a mess in season 4. Connor was salvageable, until Jasmine took control of his mind and amplified all the bad things in there. I'm rewatching the show now, for the fourth time 😊, and I must admit, season 4 it's so weak compared to the others, but still, holds his own. I mean, Angel had amazing writing over all.
@@CrisIonita Well said. And really **s4 spoilers** Evil Cordy was way worse to me than Connor. Especially from an acting perspective, Charisma seemed so not into any of it and made Lilah's death feel wasteful
"if nothing that we do matters, then all that matters is what we do"
I think this is one of my favorite quotes of all time!
It's simple and yet brilliant, it's complexity is at any level you choose it to be, wraped togeather in a beautiful turn of phrase. I think it has the quality and merit to be put forward in any discussion of existentialism or ethics
Yes! I use this scene in my Philosophy classes when we cover existentialism. I also use the scene from Part 1 where he talks to Holland Manners in the elevator. They are the 2 sides of the existential coin.
Same. This is the single one quote from a TV show or any visual media that I would want tattooed on my body. I think it summarizes secular humanism perfectly.
Did anyone come here to actually hear Kate tell Angel, “I never invited you in.” That used to be such a rush in being hopeful to the higher ‘powers that be ‘ in recognition to a vampire with a soul that is seeking redemption for centuries of sin? I’ll stop being Anne Rice lol
They NEVER followed up on Kate's observation!
@@victorpradha9946I took it as Angel is wrong there is a grand plan and even a god that cares about goodness that’s how despite Kate being dead a miracle happened when Angel brought her back.
Words to live by.
Love that that Russian lady on The Daily Show quoted this!
That entire segment killed me, but the lady quoting Angel... Oh my god, that was amazing. I didn't know whether to be laughing or cheering or both xD
I love that Russian Lady too this Epiphany is sort of my mantra I try to live by these words I also like what he says the Connor in the last season I think it was the last season lol
wait what lady?
Jude was, that was season 4, the last season was 5.
I use this quote as an inspirational mantra that Russian Lady is awesome
" If nothing we do matters... , then all that matters is what we do. Cause that's all there is. What we do." is my favorite quote in the world
I liked these two as friends. I really wish she'd come back at some point.
Great speech and one of the best episodes of the entire series watching Angel snap out of his funk and save the day.
I miss
Angel
It’s too bad Kaye disappeared after this. It would have been great to see her back.
How awesome is it that a Russian woman fighting for gay rights quotes this amazing show. Joss for life.
"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." What a line...!
To do something - anything! - with no expectations is the true definition of kindness
Actually, Tim Minear wrote this, he mentioned recently in a podcast. But it's a good bet that the awesomest lines were written by Joss. Most of them were. :)
I really love these lines.
Truer words were never spoken!
It's things like this that prove that everything really does matter and that there's a greater reason why. "Nothing matters" is such a strong statement and it doesn't allow for any exceptions. And yet, the soul still has to force one in because by nature it can't accept that nothing matters because It just doesn't feel right, or true, to the deepest part of ourselves. "People shouldn't suffer." Why? Bc it MATTERS.
These lines are so sweet...aww angel.
What amazes me, is this simple quote, inspired a Russian woman to stand up against the Anti-Gay laws in her country. Just amazing,
Daily Show. :)
Hi, I know you posted this eight months ago but you would happen to know if there's a video of this on youtube?
***** Sorry, I saw the clip of the Russian lady on the Daily Show. They were doing a report during the Olympics from there.
VyseN1 Thank you!
UTFan666 it inspires me everyday
At this point in my life I'm understanding Angel like this.
As Liam, his father had a low opinion and expectation from him. He was aching for love and admiration.
But he continiously failed. Thus, he drank all his emotions away.
As Angelus, he wanted to prove that he was worth something even if it meant to become the most evil vampire ever.
Being a demon at its core helps a lot.
Then as Angel, he wanted to be recognized for his fight against his sins. Righting his wrongs. Earning redemption for being a past ''weak''man (Liam).
But the truth is. He had to forgive himself and love himself for trying to be better as Angel.
I wondered if he ever did...
His redemption did not need to come from the outside actually. He needed it from the inside more than the outside.
Kate is so beautiful, her hair her eyes...there so well placed
The point is, why should the perspective of "in the greater scheme, in the big picture" matter? In the greater scheme, we are tiny self-aware lumps of organic molecules scurrying around on a wet dustball, hurtling around an ongoing hydrogen bomb explosion in the outer reaches of an unremarkable galaxy in a universe that doesn't give a shit about any of it. Why is that perspective even relevant, let alone important?
But we are conscious and self-aware. And as a result we have choices; and we suffer. And when others like us suffer, we can feel it too. And often, we can do things to reduce and alleviate that suffering; sometimes to even bring joy. That moment to moment exercise of consciousness and empathy, that's what really matters. Who gives a crap about "the greater scheme" or "the big picture"? Just be good. Now. That's all that really matters.
Because the big picture sometimes puts people in place.
But the big picture can take you out of (ir make you lose focus of) the small picture, which was Angel's job - to help the little people.
That is the point, don't get so focused on the big stuff that you forget the rest. Which Angel realized he was doing.
@@CurlyFromTheSwirly Yep! Buffy was the one who worked to save the world (the big picture), but Angel realized his job (just saving one person at a time) was equally as important.
@@Lady-Seashell-Bikini
Cause everyone's struggle matters.
What good would saving the world be if people were left in trouble.
I mean saving the world is basically metaphor for our struggles.
“If nothing we do matters all that matters is what we do” this quote alone has brought me out of existential dread
This is great, and I'm one of those people who immediately "squee'd" when I saw this on big-time teevee. Buffy/Angel (since they shared a "universe" and "show runner" it is the same thing) is the best and most important series in the last 30 years.
Technically, the show runners were not the same. If I remember right, David Greenwalt was more the one in charge of Angel (with Whedon's approvals) for the 1st 3 seasons. While Joss did Buffy. In season 4 Greenwalt had left & Whedon was more focused on Firefly.
Whatever the case, the universe was always under Whedon's umbrella. But sibling shows don't always have rhe same headwritter.
This is kind of when I fell in love with the show. Before this moment Angel (and the series around him) was darker and broodier. After this, he allowed himself to lighten up and be funny.
It was always dark, but he learned to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Angel was like two different shows....I wonder if it was in danger of getting cancelled(from what I remember it was always on the chopping block), and thats why they closed so many storylines up, particularly a lot of Wolfram and Haart stories
And this is sadly the last we see of Kate. Until the comic book came out that is.
Depressingly beautiful
This leaves out the best part of this scene when she says she didn't invite him in.
This is beautiful, and very interesting, in that it is basically an ode to humanism, a description of the deepest meaning of humanism-- delivered by a creature who is, technically, not human. [Though he is in the humanist sense, I think.]
Sure Joss wrote the good stuff, for buffy.
But Tim minear, and David Greenwalt really took over the second season with an a gusto.
Which goes to show, when tim Minear and david left for the fourth season, it really sucked. One of the worst seasons.
So i give credit to Tim. Sure Joss created it. But David and Tim really did well with Angel.
As did Marti Noxon with Buffy. All three still say unprompted that Joss was still involved more than people think and that both shows were his babies. Joss wrote this line along with most of the frequently quoted lines in pretty much everything he's worked on. He gets the credit. Absolutely, the other people involved should also be credited for the shows, but I don't get this trend of slamming Joss Whedon and giving credit for all the good work he did to other people.
EccentricSoulfly1, my favorite episodes are/were usually written by Tim Minear. I thought it sucked he didn't do any in season 5, but he moved on.
Katharine Eavan, that's the thing. Nobody really puts Wierdon down. Everyone worships that idiot. And he did something great with Buffy, but never put the same love into his 2nd child.
Katharine Eavan but the Season 8 comics prove Whedon had no idea how Angel’s character worked
I always say, Whedon didn't map out a vampire mythology, and that was his mistake.
Sad to know this was Kate's last scene, I really wanted to see a romance between them, but sadly there were complications that hindered that possibility. Still it's good to see they parted on good terms.
@Kagereneko you're right, not every relationship has to be romantic. I wanted Angel and Faith to be couple, because they both connect as they both seek to make amends. Seeing them together as friends is enough.
And even if not a romance, I wish we could explore their reignited friendship more.
I can't believe I'm just seeing this now. AMAZING video / speech.
This to me sums up everything. Its the meaning of life. Whenever i feel down this is something i look towards to give inspiration that im not alone that there are other people that get it.
Angel and Kate
Yeah, they could have been a great couple.
This has always been one of my favorite quotes because it crystallizes true morality. If you're doing the right thing just for an ultimate reward (or to avoid ultimate punishment), your actions are meaningless. If you do it because someone is keeping score then it's just a game. True morality comes from doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do! And that's not a game. That's life.
But how do you know it is the right thing to do if there are no results to prove that? Who establishes these non-pragmatic standards for 'morality', may I ask?
@@cmm5542 Some people would say that's up to each individual's conscience to decide. Pragmatists would really on some objective measure to judge whether or not an action is good, but I think that undermines the idea of morality. I would say we can derive a commonly agreed upon morality by following rational first principles. Morality is about what is right or wrong regardless of the "results". Killing Hitler in the crib is still wrong even if it "results" in millions saved, etc. But the most important point is that it's not decided by some invisible, powerful sky daddy making arbitrary decisions.
@@sirbruce70 Okay, so who makes the arbitrary 'first principle' that killing is wrong, pray? How was that decided upon?
@@sirbruce70 Personally, that sounds like the absolute definition of human hubris to me. Look at us, we humans are so great we have this innate knowledge of what is/isn't right without ANYTHING to tell us? These fantastically moral and altruistic beings that act rightly for NO motivation whatsoever? Human history utterly disproves that.
In what way is some other human telling me what is right less arbitrary than some divinity doing so? At least the divinity might have omniscient awareness of how doing the right thing today might have positive results one hundred, one thousand, or an eternity from now; or doing the wrong thing negative results. Another human being or my own 'conscience' won't. That's even assuming all human beings HAVE consciences. How do you prove that?
Suppose I were about to kill the man who murdered my sister, and you tell me, 'Don't do that. It's morally wrong.' In the absence of any proven negative consequences to revenge killing, or positive consequences to mercy, why on EARTH would I listen to you? What would make you any the less arbitrary and controlling than 'some invisible sky daddy' in this instance? Fortunately, human history ALSO demonstrates the negative consequences of revenge and the positive consequences of mercy, so I would know the right thing to do. Whether I would actually do it is another question your and Angel's position doesn't answer - why do people continue to do things they KNOW are wrong, for whatever reason, if 'all that matters is what we do?' That never stopped anyone from doing evil. Many evildoers 'do' evil for precisely that reason: to feel they matter. They impacted the world. Whether the impact is good or bad doesn't matter to them, if there are no consequences.
@@cmm5542 Unfortunately that is beyond the scope of a simple TH-cam conversation. First you will need some foundational college-level courses in Logic, Ethics, Psychology, Sociology, Anthropology, and Political Science.
This scene really touches the soul. And for good reason! There’s a deep Truth to
it that something inside of us recognises and understands, pointing our hearts and minds towards what really makes a difference in our lives and in the lives of others; “all that matters is what we do”. And yet at the same time realising that none of it matters, and in a funny way that isn’t at all nihilistic, it’s almost like life not having an intrinsic meaning actually makes it more worthwhile because we get to DECIDE what that meaning is and discover it for ourselves! Much like a talented artist has a blank canvas with free reign yet we as the artist have been asking why paint at all? What’s the purpose of painting?? And children playing, flowers blossoming, and birds singing will show you that it is the simple
joy of painting (finding joy in what you do and who you become). Life itself is it’s own purpose!!
Sometimes, the things that effect you on the deepest level are those that should've been obvious to you or seemed obvious to everyone else and you just didn't get it until one moment later down the line.
You're welcome. =) I actually had to argue Fair Use so this video could show up on TH-cam. So, I'm glad it's appreciated!
I needed this
Its a shame we never saw her again
Jareth The Goblin King the actress had just gotten the starring role in Law and Order I believe, which is why she left Angel.
I think she returned in the graphic novels
A lot of people don't like her, but i thought she had potential after her eyes were opened to the truth. SAd she had to leave when she did.
@@elizabethg9722 I think part of that was because she turned against Angel once she learned what he really was. I bet if she had formally joined Angel Investigations, she would have been just as loved as the rest of the team.
@@Lady-Seashell-Bikini absolutely!
I've always loved this scene and speech. I still remember it after all these years :)
Awesome quote by Angel! It's definitely one of my favorite from the show.
It's such a shame it's the last episode of Kate. She started to become very interesting...
ikr!! Kate was such an interesting character and she got booted in just two seasons
2024 and I still probably quote this yearly
I think this is an interesting contrast to Buffy. In Buffy, the enemies were commanders with grand plans and great ambitions. The Master, Angel, the Mayor, Glory, Willow, and the First Evil were all this way, and to various degrees they wanted control of the Hellmouth, i.e. it was often a conflict over resources. This ended with the destruction of the armies of her final adversary and she and her army could live in peace. I know the comics exist, but those are not featuring here.
Angel shows a different side of reality. His was the daily grind of the investigator. His enemies were not the grand generals leading their armies into open warfare, but the slow oozing manipulative evils like thar found in the hearts of men. Wolfram & Hart employ normal human being like Lila and they filter corruption and misery across hundreds of people in thousands of ways. It is a miasmic infiltration with each and every victory being the slow process of filtering out the refuse while becoming mired and entangled with it. Thus it is the never ending war.
World War II ended with the death in the death of many of the upper Nazi elite, and so did Buffy's wars in Sunnydale. The war against the criminal and the corrupt is a never ending conflict, and this is epitomized in Angel.
all that matters is what we do.
I missed Kate in the later seasons. I wish the show hadn't gone the Cangel route (and then had it blown badly by getting possesed!Cordy sleep with Connor) and instead developed Angel and Kate's friendship into a romance by the fifth season.
Quintessential absurdism philosophy. Brilliant.
Love this video and love the comment section even more! People write some really amazing, deep stuff here.
This is the philosophy I've always tried to live my life by.
This has stayed with me, too, but not with the power of "Birthday". You can wish you'd taken a left here, or a right, but you can't know that your life would be better or worse. You have to stick by your choices, stop fretting over the past, & make choices now. 💗
Blessed words to live by.
Great speech that can pretty much be applied to everything we do in our lives.
I also love Gunn's speech about predestination and whether we should fight or just give up:
"Look, Monochrome can yap all he wants about No-Name's cosmic plan, but here's a little something I picked up rubbing mojos these past few years - the final score can't be rigged. I don't care how many players you grease that last shot always comes up a question mark. But here's the thing. You never know when you're taking it. It could be when you're duking it out with the Legion of Doom or crossing the street, deciding where to have a brunch. So you just treat it all like it was up to you - the world on the balance. Because you never know when it is."
This is postmodern moral philosophy summarized.
I feel like the moment he took over Wolfram and Hart was when he turned his back on who he was then. He lost so much though from this moment to then.
See, I feel like if anything Angel was the one who had actually had understandable reasons for agreeing to the W&H takeover when, in any circumstances less dyer than the one in that moment with Connor, he probably wouldn't have. And I think he had kind of shut down in part because he was the one most uncomfortable with the level of gray morality he'd found himself in. So if anything, it was less that he'd turned his back or been corrupted or anything, and more that he was *feeling* like that was what he had done, and needed to get to a point of accepting the choice he had made for the necessity it was at the time and believe that he could still fight the good fight regardless of the circumstances. That's why You're Welcome wasn't about them finding a way to get out of the W&H deal, but rather about Angel getting his sense of fight back while still being there :)
But yeah, the crazy amount of loss he'd been through by that point also surely contributed a great deal to his just going through the motions for a lot of s5 😔
David is such a great actor in my opinion I wish he could be in more shows because honestly I can't think of any other shows he's in besides buffy and the spinoff angel
Bones and seal team are 2 other shows David started and produced
Whedon was breaking out the existential philosophy in this scene.
We have to try there is so much pain in the world and hate too just help one person in your life at least
This is what Nietzsche really ment when he talked about the will to power. Insisting upon meaning when the the universe give nothing
if this is in real life, nothing he can do to fix what angelus did
Exactly.
And what's even scarier is, Angelus lived by the exact same principle Angel is stating here: 'all that matters is what we do.' To Angelus, doing evil mattered. To Angel, doing good matters.
Without an ultimate purpose, there's nothing to say which view is actually right.
Everything happening in 2020 brought me here.
Yes ... and it matter what we do now.
Yes ... and it matter what we do now.
It's a Tim Minear episode, though!
Ladies, Gentlemen, Non-Binaries, and +, we are presented here with the problem of nihilism - and it is demolished with understated elegance in approximately one minute.
Now, let's go to work.
Another clip on the same theme
th-cam.com/video/GOaVJufPqUU/w-d-xo.html
If my epitaph reads 'An Idiot to Tried His Best to Be Kind' - that wouldn't be a bad thing
but, to only just simply do little things (because that's supposedly what's really, truly matters), isn't that in itself kinda depressing? isn't that in the end also proven to be just meaningless, in the bigger, grand scheme of everything?
That would be the nihilist viewpoint. The point here is that meaning can exist in a meaningless universe, if we perceive it. It's existential absurdism. And yes, when the universe dies of heat death in the far, far future, any of that meaning disappears, but that by no means lessons or removes the meaning it has in the moment. And in a meaningless universe, just sitting around, doing nothing, would be completely consistent with the universe we're living in. Having the notion to give meaning, give yourself a reason to get up off your ass every morning and do _something_ productive, even in a meaningless universe, should be entirely uplifting.
Angel doesn't mean that you should only do little things. The point is that if nothing matters, then your viewpoint and actions make up your entire universe. Do as much good as you can, but if you can't save the world, that's alright because you saved someone else's entire world.
The large act of kindness are great, but don't dismiss the small acts of kindness either. The goal is to approach every moment of your life with kindness and love.
Why did Kate leave just as her and Angel were becoming friends again?😥 Plus, wouldn't have minded if they got together at some point, I liked them better than Cangel.
Because the episode before this one the police force fired Kate because they thought she was losing it been obsessed with vanpires and demans and of course there r no monsters to their eyes so they thoight kate was crazy. Then afters Kate tried to kill herself but angel saved her then Kate moved on but no idea where tho
I know that the real reason was that Kate's actor moved on to Law & Order, but in my mind, Kate never truly saw Angel as a friend after learning he was a vampire. Sure, she learned to forgive him and let go of her hatred, but she didn't really want to see him again. She probably moved away from LA to find a new purpose.
Joss Whedon's depth and eloquence truly blow my mind.
Angel and Kate should have smashed at least once before Elizabeth Rohm left the show to go do Law and Order. And don't tell me that they couldn't because he would have turned into psycho vamp. Umm no I don't think he would because in order for him to turn into psycho vamp Angelist he would have to be completely in love with Kate like he was with Buffy and I don't think he was in love with her like that. There was definitely a connection with them but it wasn't a I'm in love with you one but more of a I wanna have a possible one night stand and let's go our separate ways in the morning kinda if connection.
Seth Morgan He tried to pick her up in the first ep she was in and failed.
And this translates into our world #believethat #100
Existentialism in a nutshell.
Homeless people are wasting time begging for money when they could be volunteering in the community or creating businesses instead.
Let’s change that with the Universal Basic Income. Or by abolishing money.
Let’s give everyone over the age of 13 a guaranteed minimum income of $1,500ish USD/month!
Guyygd
I completely forgot Kate was a character. What the heck happened to her in the show?
Unless I'm misunderstanding this is sadomasochism. One is taking pleasure in the hopelessness of oneself and those around you. Those small acts of kindness is a reaffirmation of the hopelessness everyone is in.
Is this analogy correct?:
Everyone is on a giant ship that is going nowhere and has no ultimate purpose. However, people on that ship can still experience happiness, joy and sadness. And that as a human being living on that ship, one should find great joy in doing small acts of kindness because that one act of kindness is worth so much in a hopeless meaningless condition. That is, the ship has no end purpose and is not going anywhere.
In this situation that act of finding happiness is a suffering in itself. That is, it reinforces the conditions in which the act is taking place in. What I mean to say is to find a happiness in an ultimately sorrowful situation is actually to find happiness in sorrow.
Do I have this right?
+Obiyer I wouldn't say that it's sadomasochism. It would mean that one brings harm by being kind. It means finding happiness despite the sorrow around you, to realise that you are the one that can create happiness in your and others life. And that if everyone acted kind people would create amazing things just because they would want so, not because of some threat from god or some higher purpose. Because people ask: "what if god doesnt exist? what if there is no purpose to our life" this is the answer. Even if there is no purpose (there can be, we don't know) you still can make one :)
+Obiyer It's more existentialism than anything else. The epiphany is that he doesn't need any sort of outside meaning in order to enjoy his life, and things don't need to have some effect on the big picture to be worthwhile.
It's not sadomasochism. It's realizing that hope can be found in smaller places.
Actually it's nihilistic optimism. It has nothing to do with enjoying suffering, simply with accepting that there is no greater meaning to life and your existence, but that doesn't mean you can't live a good life with what you have. To quote another good show: "Life is just a pile of good things and bad things. The good things don’t always soften the bad things, but vice versa, the bad things don’t always spoil the good things and make them unimportant."
@@pandagirl42087 Actually, it's the very opposite of nihilism. Nihilism is the view that nothing matters, ever. There'll never be any event, any belief, any action, that will ever have meaning.
This is, as Freecell82 says, existentialism, though Joss and co throw in a good helping of absurdism along with it. The idea that existence itself is meaning, even if it has no greater meaning beyond existence (and our ability to give it meaning within our own brain/consciousness). Absurdism takes it to another level of, even if the universe has no meaning, we are not only able, but obligate to give ourselves meaning: it is literally part of our nature to give our lives meaning in a meaningless universe. And in a meaningless universe, giving ourselves meaning, and placing meaning and value on other lives, is absurd yet beautifully poetic. And giving ourselves meaning in a meaningless universe makes that meaning, whatever it is, the most meaningful thing in existence.
"The smallest act of kindest, is the greatest thing in the world."
Obiyer, no, it only means that you/we should do the right thing even if there is no reward.
If nothing we do matters, than the only thing that matters is (the integrity of) what we do!
so one person is worthless lol
only if they do nothing in living.
teh edward the hardest thing in the world is to live in it
Oliver Sacco, yes, the best Buffy quote.
This quote implies the opposite. The smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.
For example, you're on a trail and you run into a person who hurt themself. In that moment, you're interaction with that person and how you act is the most important thing you could possibly do. And the same applies in the next moment. And the next.
There are four horrible people in the world that don't like this
This is what being an a atheist feels like. There is no purpose, and that gives us purpose.
This is absolutely nonsense, particularly since Angel has been to Hell and Buffy has been to Heaven. He knows there's reward and punishment.
Except that's not how the "heaven" and "hell" ideas are used in the Buffyverse. When characters talk about hell, they're talking about hellish *dimensions* . Buffy sending Angel to hell wasn't her literally killing him and sending his soul to some karmic retribution; the whole reason he was able to come back is that he lived, he just got sent to a particularly torturous other dimension, of which there are presumably an endless array, some being pleasant and others being horrific, hence being called hell.
*Dying* is a whole other thing, and my reading of the Buffyverse afterlife is that it doesn't have to be stagnate, it's NOT based on any reward or punishment, and is primarily dictated by each soul's level of peace (or lack thereof). Buffy was in what felt to her to have been a heaven-like state not because she had "been rewarded", but because she had died protecting those she loved most and the world at large; she had died at peace with herself and her circumstances, so of course her soul, wherever it had lived on, was warm and content. The ghost in Buffy's 'I Only Have Eyes for You', in contrast, was haunted not because he was being externally punished, but because his soul couldn't forgive *himself* for what he had done, and then once he finally could, he was able to be at peace too.
So Angel's epiphany here is absolutely consistent with both the philosophy and mechanics of the Buffyverse; just because they use the terms "heaven" and "hell" doesn't mean there was ever any implication that there was some karmic scoreboard.
As someone with a philosophy degree, Angel's 'epiphany' was SO disappointing! I was expecting some kind of universal logic here, but instead I got one of the THREE main and equally valid positions on nihilist existentialism that have been been (and will continue to be) debated for centuries. This didn't settle ANYTHING.
If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do - works for intellectual individuals who care more about 'meaning' than practical pupose. Which is very few people.
If nothing matters, do whatever works in the moment (which is generally something that would be considered 'wrong' if anything DID matter) - is the pragmatic side of the equation. Which is far more popular in the real world than Angel's view.
If nothing we do matters, we might as well all be dead - this is the position of Sartre and those who actually want to find the purpose of existence itself, not the acts that make it up.
All three positions have different arguments going for them - and that's leaving out all the philosophical positions that claim existence DOES have some kind of meaning or purpose! Angel simply cannot claim here that he's found the answer for everyone as to why they should do the right thing. He's simply picked the position that most appeals to him. He's gained greater self-awareness on what motivates HIM, but that's NOT an epiphany. I myself do not accept that philosophical standpoint, but prefer the one of Sartre (only fortunately I also acknowledge that what we do DOES matter in the end. So what we should do if it didn't matter becomes moot).
This is not in any way a CONCLUSIVE answer to 'why we should do the right thing.' There are more rebuttals and counter-arguments to Angel's position - and any of the others - than you can shake a stick at. Philosophy is the one field that will never be exhausted, because the questions will never be fully answered.
It's kind of sad how people think this is (for lack of a better word atm) deep.
Explain?
Well, if you don't think the works of kierkegaard and camus on absurdism are deep then that's just, like, your opinion. Because that is what is referenced in this scene. Joss Whedon is an Absurdist and his work often deals with the thematic.
It’s deep in the sense that it has a lot of applications to your life. And I believe reminding ourselves that the most important thing is our choices and actions, that they have the greatest power not the future results but right here and now, and if that can bring meaning to someone’s life? I’d call that deep.
I know you wrote this some time ago, but I support your view. Angel is stating only one of multiple (and equally valid, and all open to critique and rebuttal) philosophical positions here. He is not in any way offering a definitive solution to the problem. Neither did Kierkegaard and Camus, by the way: that is not what philosophy does, as someone who has a degree in it. Philosophy explores and questions the big questions of life. It does not give us the answers. Everyone selects their own philosophical position to view life from, and Angel is entitled to his view here, but he hasn't answered anything for those of us who are not satisfied with absurdism as our life philosophy. There are a multitude of other positions, and this in no way establishes Angel (and Joss') as superior to any other. It was a huge disappointment to me that THIS was the 'epiphany' on the 'meaning' of life for Angel.
@@cmm5542 I mean, that's the point. While Buffy was concerned with saving the world and being "the chosen one", Angel was in the streets just saving one person at a time. Angel was obsessed with earning his redemption, but after Epiphany, he lost interest in redeeming himself and to simply do good for goodness' sake.
Of course there are multiple philosophical positions, and this was the one that HE found motivating. There is no one philosophical position that explains a universal truth. Only those that apply to you.
This clip is the most succinct articulation of postmodern moral philosophy. Nietzsche would be proud, compassion reinvneted.
Good video good scene 👍
Too bad Kate never showed again after that scene. I liked her