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epiphany
เข้าร่วมเมื่อ 10 เม.ย. 2007
Angel's Epiphany Speech
Angel Season 2 Episode 16 "Epiphany" Transcript below! =)
Angel: It doesn't.
Kate Lockley: Doesn't what?
Angel: Mean anything. In the greater scheme, in the big picture, nothing we do matters. There's no grand plan, no big win.
Kate Lockley: You seem kind of chipper about that.
Angel: Well, I guess I kinda worked it out. If there's no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters... , then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today. I fought for so long, for redemption, for a reward, and finally just to beat the other guy, but I never got it.
Kate Lockley: And now you do?
Angel: Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because, I don't think people should suffer as they do. Because, if there's no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.
Kate Lockley: Yikes. It sounds like you've had an epiphany.
Angel: I keep saying that, but nobody's listening.
Angel: It doesn't.
Kate Lockley: Doesn't what?
Angel: Mean anything. In the greater scheme, in the big picture, nothing we do matters. There's no grand plan, no big win.
Kate Lockley: You seem kind of chipper about that.
Angel: Well, I guess I kinda worked it out. If there's no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters... , then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today. I fought for so long, for redemption, for a reward, and finally just to beat the other guy, but I never got it.
Kate Lockley: And now you do?
Angel: Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because, I don't think people should suffer as they do. Because, if there's no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.
Kate Lockley: Yikes. It sounds like you've had an epiphany.
Angel: I keep saying that, but nobody's listening.
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The Basement Room
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I worked with a literature class to produce a group video. It was awesomely fun. This short film is based on the short story "The Basement Room" by Graham Greene.
2024 and I still probably quote this yearly
This is what Nietzsche really ment when he talked about the will to power. Insisting upon meaning when the the universe give nothing
This is postmodern moral philosophy summarized.
This clip is the most succinct articulation of postmodern moral philosophy. Nietzsche would be proud, compassion reinvneted.
I liked these two as friends. I really wish she'd come back at some point.
Good video good scene 👍
"If nothing we do matters than all that matters is what we do." *Mike drop* How to build a better word In one sentence
Too bad Kate never showed again after that scene. I liked her
Depressingly beautiful
I miss Angel
Great speech that can pretty much be applied to everything we do in our lives. I also love Gunn's speech about predestination and whether we should fight or just give up: "Look, Monochrome can yap all he wants about No-Name's cosmic plan, but here's a little something I picked up rubbing mojos these past few years - the final score can't be rigged. I don't care how many players you grease that last shot always comes up a question mark. But here's the thing. You never know when you're taking it. It could be when you're duking it out with the Legion of Doom or crossing the street, deciding where to have a brunch. So you just treat it all like it was up to you - the world on the balance. Because you never know when it is."
all that matters is what we do.
At this point in my life I'm understanding Angel like this. As Liam, his father had a low opinion and expectation from him. He was aching for love and admiration. But he continiously failed. Thus, he drank all his emotions away. As Angelus, he wanted to prove that he was worth something even if it meant to become the most evil vampire ever. Being a demon at its core helps a lot. Then as Angel, he wanted to be recognized for his fight against his sins. Righting his wrongs. Earning redemption for being a past ''weak''man (Liam). But the truth is. He had to forgive himself and love himself for trying to be better as Angel. I wondered if he ever did... His redemption did not need to come from the outside actually. He needed it from the inside more than the outside.
David is such a great actor in my opinion I wish he could be in more shows because honestly I can't think of any other shows he's in besides buffy and the spinoff angel
Bones and seal team are 2 other shows David started and produced
Homeless people are wasting time begging for money when they could be volunteering in the community or creating businesses instead. Let’s change that with the Universal Basic Income. Or by abolishing money. Let’s give everyone over the age of 13 a guaranteed minimum income of $1,500ish USD/month! Guyygd
"If there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world." I love this line!
Me too
I completely forgot Kate was a character. What the heck happened to her in the show?
As someone with a philosophy degree, Angel's 'epiphany' was SO disappointing! I was expecting some kind of universal logic here, but instead I got one of the THREE main and equally valid positions on nihilist existentialism that have been been (and will continue to be) debated for centuries. This didn't settle ANYTHING. If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do - works for intellectual individuals who care more about 'meaning' than practical pupose. Which is very few people. If nothing matters, do whatever works in the moment (which is generally something that would be considered 'wrong' if anything DID matter) - is the pragmatic side of the equation. Which is far more popular in the real world than Angel's view. If nothing we do matters, we might as well all be dead - this is the position of Sartre and those who actually want to find the purpose of existence itself, not the acts that make it up. All three positions have different arguments going for them - and that's leaving out all the philosophical positions that claim existence DOES have some kind of meaning or purpose! Angel simply cannot claim here that he's found the answer for everyone as to why they should do the right thing. He's simply picked the position that most appeals to him. He's gained greater self-awareness on what motivates HIM, but that's NOT an epiphany. I myself do not accept that philosophical standpoint, but prefer the one of Sartre (only fortunately I also acknowledge that what we do DOES matter in the end. So what we should do if it didn't matter becomes moot). This is not in any way a CONCLUSIVE answer to 'why we should do the right thing.' There are more rebuttals and counter-arguments to Angel's position - and any of the others - than you can shake a stick at. Philosophy is the one field that will never be exhausted, because the questions will never be fully answered.
To do something - anything! - with no expectations is the true definition of kindness
It's things like this that prove that everything really does matter and that there's a greater reason why. "Nothing matters" is such a strong statement and it doesn't allow for any exceptions. And yet, the soul still has to force one in because by nature it can't accept that nothing matters because It just doesn't feel right, or true, to the deepest part of ourselves. "People shouldn't suffer." Why? Bc it MATTERS.
I think this is an interesting contrast to Buffy. In Buffy, the enemies were commanders with grand plans and great ambitions. The Master, Angel, the Mayor, Glory, Willow, and the First Evil were all this way, and to various degrees they wanted control of the Hellmouth, i.e. it was often a conflict over resources. This ended with the destruction of the armies of her final adversary and she and her army could live in peace. I know the comics exist, but those are not featuring here. Angel shows a different side of reality. His was the daily grind of the investigator. His enemies were not the grand generals leading their armies into open warfare, but the slow oozing manipulative evils like thar found in the hearts of men. Wolfram & Hart employ normal human being like Lila and they filter corruption and misery across hundreds of people in thousands of ways. It is a miasmic infiltration with each and every victory being the slow process of filtering out the refuse while becoming mired and entangled with it. Thus it is the never ending war. World War II ended with the death in the death of many of the upper Nazi elite, and so did Buffy's wars in Sunnydale. The war against the criminal and the corrupt is a never ending conflict, and this is epitomized in Angel.
“If nothing we do matters all that matters is what we do” this quote alone has brought me out of existential dread
Whedon was breaking out the existential philosophy in this scene.
I feel like the moment he took over Wolfram and Hart was when he turned his back on who he was then. He lost so much though from this moment to then.
See, I feel like if anything Angel was the one who had actually had understandable reasons for agreeing to the W&H takeover when, in any circumstances less dyer than the one in that moment with Connor, he probably wouldn't have. And I think he had kind of shut down in part because he was the one most uncomfortable with the level of gray morality he'd found himself in. So if anything, it was less that he'd turned his back or been corrupted or anything, and more that he was *feeling* like that was what he had done, and needed to get to a point of accepting the choice he had made for the necessity it was at the time and believe that he could still fight the good fight regardless of the circumstances. That's why You're Welcome wasn't about them finding a way to get out of the W&H deal, but rather about Angel getting his sense of fight back while still being there :) But yeah, the crazy amount of loss he'd been through by that point also surely contributed a great deal to his just going through the motions for a lot of s5 😔
Quintessential absurdism philosophy. Brilliant.
Kate is so beautiful, her hair her eyes...there so well placed
"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." What a line...!
Terrible music. But good video. Update with better music.
Why did Kate leave just as her and Angel were becoming friends again?😥 Plus, wouldn't have minded if they got together at some point, I liked them better than Cangel.
Because the episode before this one the police force fired Kate because they thought she was losing it been obsessed with vanpires and demans and of course there r no monsters to their eyes so they thoight kate was crazy. Then afters Kate tried to kill herself but angel saved her then Kate moved on but no idea where tho
I know that the real reason was that Kate's actor moved on to Law & Order, but in my mind, Kate never truly saw Angel as a friend after learning he was a vampire. Sure, she learned to forgive him and let go of her hatred, but she didn't really want to see him again. She probably moved away from LA to find a new purpose.
Awesome quote by Angel! It's definitely one of my favorite from the show. It's such a shame it's the last episode of Kate. She started to become very interesting...
ikr!! Kate was such an interesting character and she got booted in just two seasons
This is absolutely nonsense, particularly since Angel has been to Hell and Buffy has been to Heaven. He knows there's reward and punishment.
Except that's not how the "heaven" and "hell" ideas are used in the Buffyverse. When characters talk about hell, they're talking about hellish *dimensions* . Buffy sending Angel to hell wasn't her literally killing him and sending his soul to some karmic retribution; the whole reason he was able to come back is that he lived, he just got sent to a particularly torturous other dimension, of which there are presumably an endless array, some being pleasant and others being horrific, hence being called hell. *Dying* is a whole other thing, and my reading of the Buffyverse afterlife is that it doesn't have to be stagnate, it's NOT based on any reward or punishment, and is primarily dictated by each soul's level of peace (or lack thereof). Buffy was in what felt to her to have been a heaven-like state not because she had "been rewarded", but because she had died protecting those she loved most and the world at large; she had died at peace with herself and her circumstances, so of course her soul, wherever it had lived on, was warm and content. The ghost in Buffy's 'I Only Have Eyes for You', in contrast, was haunted not because he was being externally punished, but because his soul couldn't forgive *himself* for what he had done, and then once he finally could, he was able to be at peace too. So Angel's epiphany here is absolutely consistent with both the philosophy and mechanics of the Buffyverse; just because they use the terms "heaven" and "hell" doesn't mean there was ever any implication that there was some karmic scoreboard.
This leaves out the best part of this scene when she says she didn't invite him in.
This is what being an a atheist feels like. There is no purpose, and that gives us purpose.
I missed Kate in the later seasons. I wish the show hadn't gone the Cangel route (and then had it blown badly by getting possesed!Cordy sleep with Connor) and instead developed Angel and Kate's friendship into a romance by the fifth season.
if this is in real life, nothing he can do to fix what angelus did
Exactly. And what's even scarier is, Angelus lived by the exact same principle Angel is stating here: 'all that matters is what we do.' To Angelus, doing evil mattered. To Angel, doing good matters. Without an ultimate purpose, there's nothing to say which view is actually right.
Ladies, Gentlemen, Non-Binaries, and +, we are presented here with the problem of nihilism - and it is demolished with understated elegance in approximately one minute. Now, let's go to work.
This is the philosophy I've always tried to live my life by.
Everything happening in 2020 brought me here.
Yes ... and it matter what we do now.
Yes ... and it matter what we do now.
I needed this
Did anyone come here to actually hear Kate tell Angel, “I never invited you in.” That used to be such a rush in being hopeful to the higher ‘powers that be ‘ in recognition to a vampire with a soul that is seeking redemption for centuries of sin? I’ll stop being Anne Rice lol
They NEVER followed up on Kate's observation!
@@victorpradha9946I took it as Angel is wrong there is a grand plan and even a god that cares about goodness that’s how despite Kate being dead a miracle happened when Angel brought her back.
This has always been one of my favorite quotes because it crystallizes true morality. If you're doing the right thing just for an ultimate reward (or to avoid ultimate punishment), your actions are meaningless. If you do it because someone is keeping score then it's just a game. True morality comes from doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do! And that's not a game. That's life.
But how do you know it is the right thing to do if there are no results to prove that? Who establishes these non-pragmatic standards for 'morality', may I ask?
@@cmm5542 Some people would say that's up to each individual's conscience to decide. Pragmatists would really on some objective measure to judge whether or not an action is good, but I think that undermines the idea of morality. I would say we can derive a commonly agreed upon morality by following rational first principles. Morality is about what is right or wrong regardless of the "results". Killing Hitler in the crib is still wrong even if it "results" in millions saved, etc. But the most important point is that it's not decided by some invisible, powerful sky daddy making arbitrary decisions.
@@sirbruce70 Okay, so who makes the arbitrary 'first principle' that killing is wrong, pray? How was that decided upon?
@@sirbruce70 Personally, that sounds like the absolute definition of human hubris to me. Look at us, we humans are so great we have this innate knowledge of what is/isn't right without ANYTHING to tell us? These fantastically moral and altruistic beings that act rightly for NO motivation whatsoever? Human history utterly disproves that. In what way is some other human telling me what is right less arbitrary than some divinity doing so? At least the divinity might have omniscient awareness of how doing the right thing today might have positive results one hundred, one thousand, or an eternity from now; or doing the wrong thing negative results. Another human being or my own 'conscience' won't. That's even assuming all human beings HAVE consciences. How do you prove that? Suppose I were about to kill the man who murdered my sister, and you tell me, 'Don't do that. It's morally wrong.' In the absence of any proven negative consequences to revenge killing, or positive consequences to mercy, why on EARTH would I listen to you? What would make you any the less arbitrary and controlling than 'some invisible sky daddy' in this instance? Fortunately, human history ALSO demonstrates the negative consequences of revenge and the positive consequences of mercy, so I would know the right thing to do. Whether I would actually do it is another question your and Angel's position doesn't answer - why do people continue to do things they KNOW are wrong, for whatever reason, if 'all that matters is what we do?' That never stopped anyone from doing evil. Many evildoers 'do' evil for precisely that reason: to feel they matter. They impacted the world. Whether the impact is good or bad doesn't matter to them, if there are no consequences.
@@cmm5542 Unfortunately that is beyond the scope of a simple TH-cam conversation. First you will need some foundational college-level courses in Logic, Ethics, Psychology, Sociology, Anthropology, and Political Science.
How does having sex with darla make it all better?.... yeah, he finally feels this after screwing darla’s brains out and then is like “wait.... I should stop being a dick!”. I still like the show, but this part is very iffy to me...
Existentialism in a nutshell.
Sad to know this was Kate's last scene, I really wanted to see a romance between them, but sadly there were complications that hindered that possibility. Still it's good to see they parted on good terms.
@Kagereneko you're right, not every relationship has to be romantic. I wanted Angel and Faith to be couple, because they both connect as they both seek to make amends. Seeing them together as friends is enough.
And even if not a romance, I wish we could explore their reignited friendship more.
there's a reason this show stays in the minds of the fans who went through Angel's journey with him since the Buffy days. this insane show had way more heart, revealed more about the true nature of the world and our place in it then any other i've ever come across. i'm sure we're all pissed at how it ended at the height of its powers in season 5 but...the way it went out? was so damn true to the spirit of the show, that i think a 'neater' ending would just not have had as big an impact, or left us with that spine-tingling sensation as when Angel utters the final line of the entire series: "let's go to work", which to me is a callback to THIS moment where he finally understands his broader mission. goddamn i love this show.
Could. Ot have said it better myself, Angel to me is the pinnacle of what a tv show is meant to be. One of David Greenewalt and Joss Whedon's greatest work of all time
The best part of season 5 was Illyria holding Wesley in her arms as he is dying. Even the people on set were moved to tears. He and "Fred" expressed the fundamental truth of our existence in that moment, in 3 words, "I. Love. You." And it is so often the very last thing we say before dying, which goes to show it is the very meaning of life. Because it is the one and only thing we wish to express in our final moments.
This monologue is one for the ages. But if Angels Epiphany Speech is the Alpha than Lindsay’s speech about the True Apocalypse and what True Heroes look like is the Omega... th-cam.com/video/IS9C9KY4TSU/w-d-xo.html
I can't believe I'm just seeing this now. AMAZING video / speech.
This has stayed with me, too, but not with the power of "Birthday". You can wish you'd taken a left here, or a right, but you can't know that your life would be better or worse. You have to stick by your choices, stop fretting over the past, & make choices now. 💗
We have to try there is so much pain in the world and hate too just help one person in your life at least
The Kate-Angel relationship was the most realistic relationship on the show. Angelus killed thousands of people , Kate was a police officer and her attitude towards him was very realistic. She lost her anger towards him at the end of season 2. A shame the relationship couldn't have been explored further.