A mysterious WWII identification bracelet found in the Deserts of Egypt -serial number 15948 Alamein
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ค. 2024
- The video shows the various attempts to find out what soldier a hand-made identification bracelet found in the Western Desert initially belonged to. Armies from 10 different nations fought in the desert war, and we proceeded by elimination. It has not been possible so far to find out who the bracelet may have belonged to.
UPDATE: after checking verious leads suggested in the comments here, it turns out that in fact the Indian possibility has not been eliminated as I thought when making the video, because Indian Army units each gave out their own serial numbers, meaning that there are potentially dozens of Indian soldiers who could have had the serial number 15948. As Indian Army archives are preserved in India and Pakistan, it will apparently not be possible to solve the mystery of this identification bracelet any time soon.
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Service number 15948
Matricule 15948 1ere Division Francaise Libre 1ere DFL
Gunner Thomas Leonard Hough, serial number 1083477 Royal Artillery
Volunteer Peggy Baker W/42861. Larkhill. Auxiliary Territorial Service. Margaret Baker
W. Aspey 21500063
Obergefreiter Johannes Neuber 22.6.1922 in Dresden, Fallschirmjäger Regiment 3
Moulliet Karl Kurt 9.7.1914 Metz Sablon
Fallschirmjäger Oberfeldwebel Treiber oder Ofw Treiber
Unteroffizier Beck, Uffz Beck, FPN 10532/C, Feldersatz-Bataillon 33, 15. Panzer-Division
Frank Hind, service number 938818 Royal Artillery
Clarence E.K. Cohoe RCAF
Desert rats - 1941- 1943 - 1942 - El Alamein - Battle of El Alamein - Alam Halfa - Sollum - Ruweisat Ridge - Egypt - General Rommel - Field Marshal Montgomery - Afrika Korps - British 8th Army - India - Indian Army - 4th Infantry Division - New Zealand - Australia - South Africa - Germany - Commonwealth - Serial number - identification discs - identification tags - battlefield archaeology - rats of Tobruk - 28th Maori Battalion - trench art - commonwealth war graves commission - Bir Hacheim - Sepoy - Havildar - Naik - Subadar - 16th Punjab Regiment - 18th King Edward VII's Own Cavalry, I.A.C. - 9th Jat Regiment - 5th Mahratta Light Infantry - 1st Punjab Regiment - Indian Pioneer Corps - 10th Baluch Regiment - 11th Sikh Regiment - 7th Rajput Regiment - 8th Gurkha Rifles - Queen Victoria's Own Madras Sappers and Miners - 6th Rajputana Rifles - 12th Frontier Force Regiment - 13th Duke of Connaught's Own Lancers, I.A.C. - 18th Royal Garhwal Rifles - 3rd Queen Alexandra's Own Gurkha Rifles - Hyderabad Infantry - Indian States Forces - Indian Army Ordnance Corps - Indian Engineers - บันเทิง
Ghurka? The dot stamped dogtag rings a bell. CofE could be NZ
In the video I show at least two Indian army enlisted men who both had serial number 15948 in 1942/43. The Gurkha's also had similar 4 or 5 digit serial numbers according to the Alamein cemetery register. I am trying to figure out how the Indian army attributed numbers to enlisted men. I am affraid it seems that each Regiment may have given out its own serial number, meaning there could be dozens of Indian army men with serial number 15948. But on the other hand, few Indian army members would have been COE or have written their names in our alphabet.
The good news is that I just saw that the British will also be making WWII service records public in the next months, so perhaps it will be possible to check for all the Indian army units who were in Egypt, and to check all the 15948s for a possible match. That is if the Indian army records ever made it to the UK...
@@CrocodileTear If that really is C of E at the top then that bracelet is likely to be of Indian origin.
British and Commonwealth troops wouldn't bother to put their religious preference first on an identity bracelet, simply because C of E was the 'default' religion. In other words, it would be the NON - C of E who would be keen to point that out.
Atheist? Agnostic? Nope, that would be dismissed as 'bolshie talk' and they would be put down as C of E anyway. This was a practice that existed in the British Army and Civil Service until the 1970's!
However, there are two Commonwealth countries/areas, India and the Middle East, where strong pre-existing beliefs already existed (Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, etc) and a C of E soldier from those 2 areas would indeed be keen to point that out on a bracelet. Of the two areas, that bracelet looks indian, not Middle Eastern in style to me..
Is it a fake ?
@@Frank_Nemo But how many Indians were COE? Is that a realistic possibility?
My initial guess from the "oriental" shape of the tag, and from the fact the person considered his army number as more significant than his name, both made me think of Indian.
@@garywheeley5108 I would be highly surprised. The locals were clueless to what this was. The only thing they recognise is the swastica, and that is what is considered most precious to find.
Never clicked so fast
Some points on Australian WW2 Identity discs - 1. The letters before each service number indicated the Australian state the man was from, NX was from New South Wales, SX was from South Australia, Vx=Vic, Qx Qld, Tx Tas, Wx WA but... the men in the RAAF did not have any letter prefix, just their number. 2. The abbreviation of the Church of England was generally CE (its on my fathers disc) and it would have been the same on all official identity discs but there are always exceptions. I hope that helps....
As you see in the video, official identity disks sometimes also had CEO, instead of the more common CE.
I did check the Austrlians as well, as shown at the very end, but no matches either...
Glad to see you picking up subscribers. You put out a very unique type of historical content.
Thanks for sharing your research methods. Respect your dedication!
Great research and video as always, Jean.
General Claude Auchinleck CIC 8th Army stated in North Africa he had 26 different Nationalities speaking over 70 languages severing under his command.
Token kiwi here - I think the resemblance to a Māori tiki pendant is a red herring myself. They typically have a large oversized head (about half the overall height) and two notches for the arms and legs, making them unsymmetrical from top to bottom. I think those notches are more decorative than anything. Having previously served in the NZDF for many years, I suspect any Māori soldier who went to the trouble of making a tiki ID tag would have decorated one side and written their details on the reverse. Probably against the kings regulations, but I believe the 28th Māori Battalion and the wider NZEF saw them more as ‘guidelines’ at best 😆
An intriguing mystery none the less, thanks for posting 😊
I would love to see more research on the 28th Māori Battalion. Absolute warriors.
Had the privilege of going back to Monte Cassino with some of them (and other NZ veterans) for the 60th anniversary celebrations - they were great guys, lots of funny stories 😊 Definitely the guys to have on your side when things got tough
@lucyjordan3188 wow. That would have been an amazing but very emotional experience. The men of the 28th took ground that many couldn't but paid a massive price for it.
As you saw in the video, NZ soldier 15948 corresponds to a person why was medically discharged after 11 days of service.
Re : the thumbnail. Out of those 4 men in the front, the only man to survive the war was Te kooti Reihana. (2nd from right)
Didn't one of them earn the V.C?
@@marklong930not these blokes
Thanks, I didnt know those specific details.
Fascinating content. Yours is the most unique of this type of research. Thanks for your efforts
As always, thank you for sharing your research...and for all of your efforts to reconnect families with loved ones lost in WWII. You mentioned your grandfather was in the RCAF. I wonder if he was ever stationed in Summerside, PEI. After WWII my dad went to the USNA and became a US Navy aviator (P3 - antisubmarine warfare). He was stationed (on an exchange tour) with the RCAF in the mid-60's. It's where I learned to love hockey 🙂
I really dont know many details of my grandfather's service. My uncle was asking me recently how he can make a request for his service records.
Great video as always!
I have no ideas to add regarding the tag but thought I would comment since you mentioned that you had a relative that was in the RCAF this video resonated with me as I had a great uncle who was a Canadian pilot flying in the RAF in this theatre. I have his flight logbook and his targets included Rhodes, Benghazi, Tobruk among others and unfortunately he was lost on his 30th (last) mission where his Wellington went down in the Mediterranean seas trying to make it back to base in Egypt after being struck by flak while bombing Crete.
Love your channel!
My grandfather was lucky to have no been shiped overseas. He was used as an instructor because already 30 or so years old. At least that is what I always heard.
You do amazing work. Love watching your videos
Another fascinating, if somewhat maddening, discovery. I especially like the ID tag showing the Sphinx and pyramids. Your videos have inspired me to subscribe to "The Journal Of Conflict Archaeology" magazine. My Dad flew on B-24's in the war, and I am in the process of scanning and transcribing all of the hundreds of letters he sent back home to his Mom. Pop was a surprisingly good writer; some letters were mundane, and some were as funny as hell! Thank you for turning over shovels-full of dirt and sand to reveal that war touches us all.
I have published a few articles in that journal 😄
The overall shape is in the form of the New Zealand Maori " Tiki " design .
Probably a New Zealand serviceman of Maori heritage .
The top letters don't really look like COE .
Try researching the New Zealand " Maori Battalion " records if they are available .
I agree, that first letter does not look like a “c”
I was going to say the same thing. The ID bracelet does indeed look like a tiki, but I would have assumed there would be some detail on the back of traditional patterns or similar. It could have been a work in progress, though as unfortunately the Māori Battalion had appaling casualties 😢
@@marklong930
Speaking of appaling casualties in Maori units. I spoke with a NZ former NCO who was severely wounded while part of a Maori unit in Africa. He said the Maoris liked to use knives in hand to hand combat, so the Germans would just wait for their charges, then mow them down at close range with machine guns. He didn't have a very positive view of the Maori tactics.
As far as I can determine, the Maori were given the exact same serial numbers as any other New Zealanders. I showed in the video that NZ serial number 15948 was given to a Keith Desmond Rumler who was discharged after 11 days of service as medically unfit. So I dont think this beonged to a Maori soldier.
@@CrocodileTear I was just commenting to the previous poster on Maori casualties, not trying to imply the braacelet originated rom a Maori soldier, sorry if there was some confusion.
It was a cultural issue on fighting hand to hand that caused them such high casualties.
I really am surprised you are at a dead end . I know it's happened a few times because you are so thorough with your research and contacts you have. Hopefully one of your viewers has a lead.
Very interesting video. I wish that I could think of other avenues of thought that you could follow. Good luck.
Very well investigated, as always.
Love your videos, very cool subject on this one.
i love your passion!
Thanks again for your fascinating content. I am a New Zealander whose Grandfather fought in North Africa with the British Royal Corp of Signals Regt. I hope that you will find the details of the owner of this artifact. Kind Regards, John W
Love you're work 🖖🍻🙏😺
If an English speaking guy was using a pin punch to mark out letters and numbers he would not write the letter 'C' so decoratively, nor would he go to the effort of over embellishing the simple letter 'D'.
This leads me to believe it belonged to somebody with a much more 'decorative' language than English, perhaps Urdu or another Asian language or even Maori.
Also, the strange shape of the tag itself doesn't strike me as something European.
Ultimately I just don't know but thanks for the video and keep up the excellent work.
I agree, this tag gives an "oriental" impression. It was the word I was trying unsuccessfully to find when I was making the video, so said "Asian" instead.
FYI The US Navy until the early 1970's (?) had an all number separate service numbers for enlistees. Officers had their own numbering. My late father shortly after the surrender of Saipan was promoted from E-7 to W-1. Along with the gold came a change in service number. By the time of my Navy enlistment in 1967, an alpha character proceeded the assigned number. In the early 70's services began using the members social security number as an identifier. Thanks. Narragansett Bay
Except the Marines. Marine (US) service numbers are different.
Unless I am completely mistaken.
These days when you are calling up a medevac with a 9 line we end up using their battle number which is first and last initial along with the last four of the social security number. When you heard the battle number over the radio you would always start thinking over friends initials to try and figure out initial was them or not.
It might be useful to figure out what the tag is made of. The three notches on top and bottom must have been there before the letters, because if the notches were made to frame the letters there would be four notches. The hole on the left, presumably for a band of some kind, has two rough areas as if the opening were made by connecting three pre-existing holes. The right hole might be the same, but the view is not great. Closer examination may show more, and perhaps the handiwork was better on the right side. So it looks like a piece of metal cut from a riveted plate, perhaps part of a plane. The notches then might be prior rivet holes as well, sharpened into notches to make them into a design feature. Only after that did the maker think of the three-letter pairs.
Micro examination of the belt holes should make that clearer. If they are in fact connected sequences, they might be quite distinctive. That is, there is enough metal on the ends of the slots to show that the tight sequence of rivets did not continue. It's also possible that only two rivet holes were connected, the appearance of a third on the left being an artifact of how it was crafted. At any rate, it raises the possibility that this is a person with some hand tools and access to wrecked planes. Not a tiny population.
The thickness of the metal should narrow down whose plane(?) it might have been, and the distance between two rows of rivets might be diagnostic. I don't see any sign of wear on the belt holes, where it should have become smooth over time. In a sandy environment this might not take long, but I don't see it at all. Micro examination might show more.
I had a rifle through the Australian enlistment records and checked 15948 against all state prefix letters, five states had one match each but none matched DJD, I also searched those initials, there were a few hits but once again none matching that number.
as always…very interesting. Greetings from germany 🇩🇪👍🏼🖖🏼
The Rhodesian Anti-Tank Battery under Major Guy Savory also fought at El Alamein, supporting the Australian 9th Division as part of the XXX Corps. Maybe a long shot?
As far as I can see from the cemetery register, Rhodesians are lumped in with the South Africans and have the same serial numbers.
Fascinating stuff ❤
A prisioner of war bracelet
• Looks like an I, a heart, and E
• Don’t think it’s a birthdate. There is a period after the 15948.
• Testing the metal composition may determine if it was manufactured after ww2
Maybe it's not military at all. the 15948 could be a date ( 15 sept. 1948) and the initials are the owner and a loved one
That makes a lot of sense. Probably post war trench art
I thought of that too.
But why would it be a date in the future?
My guess of a non serial number would be as some kind of lock combination or password, but combination locks and passwords weren't really a thing back then. A serial number is still the most likely.
It is missing the dots between the day.month.year. And the locals dont use our alphabet.
@@CrocodileTear The British army were in Egypt well into the 50s
@@CrocodileTear Yes, that is true my friend. My father served during WWII in Europe, and post war in Egypt, he said some of the guys weren't too hot on grammar and needed help writing home to family. Still, it was just an idea, good luck on your research, and it is another great video.
First of all i must say... Your work is amazing. I'm big fan of your investigations. I think that personal history that you are recovering from intems like this should never be forgotten. You inspired me to start my own journey on researching personal stories hidden in history. Thank you for that inspiration.
And abut bracelet... I think maybe Polish origin isn't most certain but it is plausible in my opinion. First of all we see rather poor quality of this particular bracelet. As you said it looks handmade. A lot of soldiers of Polish 2nd Corps was made from soldiers that came from POW camps. They had nothing with them, and usualy made things such as Polish Eagle emblems for caps etc. from scratch by hand. Maybe it will be woth to search if they had ID tags made this way too. I saw bracelet with personal data too that was sold on auction and came from 2nd Polish Corps, but it was professional made item. Also Polish 2nd Corps was in Syria, Palestine, Iran and northern part of Egypt so location is plausible too.
Anyway i hope you will find true information soon. I wish you all the best!
I am happy if I helped inspire you.
Any soldier from any nation could have made something like this bracelet. The key is the inscriptions. Does COE/LOE make any sense in Polish? Do you have samples of WWII Polish service numbers or know how their serial number system worked?
Don’t forget Aust, New Zealand, British & Indian troops were training in Egypt in WW1 prior to the Galipolli campaign?
I didnt forget and mentioned that in the video. If it is from WWI, the case is hopeless as each regiment of the british army gave out its numbers at the time as far as I understand. There are 16 men listed as having died in WWI with that service number, meaning at least 50 or so soldiers must have had that exact same serial number.
All good, I missed that part. Keep up the good work
@@CrocodileTear not only did commonwealth troops train and acclimatize in Egypt before Gallipoli campaign they returned there afterwards before embarking for Europe and the Western Front.My grandads brother was sent to Egypt and Palestine before going to Europe in 1916. He was injured in Hebuterne in May 1918 during a night raid of german trenches..His foot was blown off by a german grenade but he managed to get back to British lines. They even gave him a medal ..DCM but his foot never grew back....
I initially thought it was JOE not COE…with 15g48 but also the ‘O’ has 3 dots hanging down from the top middle. Maybe it’s not a ‘4’ but a ‘Z’ ‘15gZ8’ ? But that would then not be COE or JOE. I’m not convinced it’s Church Of England…I don’t see a ‘C’ there at all.
-> Could it say ‘LOVE” with the downward scallop where the ‘V’ should be, being the V shaped scallop in the metal ?
Crazy as it may sound, I wonder if there might be a clue in the composition of the aluminum itself. Specific alloys would indicate things like aircraft, for example.
Yes, but since this is probably destroyed or abandonned equipment being recycled, knowing where the aluminum is from wont say anything about the soldier. Could be German aluminum reused by a Maori soldier, etc.
Couple small things that I notice , the tag is certainly theatre made, the burs on the aluminium would have been easily cleaned up by a small file that any small craftsman would have. However a soldier with a rock, bayonet and a nail could easily make such a item - and to that sort of quality
Not all officers were wealthy in Britain, this is a misconception, many were working class especially in the Air Force, many other soldiers received battlefield commissions so British officers come from all walks of life’s
Aluminium was relatively new during WW1 and so would have not been a common item, however tin, pewter (from an old cup) and other soft metals which often looks similar to aluminium was a very common item to be made into trench art during WW1
Australian soldiers almost always refer to their number as XN with a prefix or suffix when labelling things
I lived in Tobruk for 4 years and one thing you NEVER EVER wore was a metal bracelet , They would heat up and burn you. That doesn't mean this wasnt worn. But to me the top bit looks like Joe and probably from a workshop to be able to use a file and centre punch to make it
Maybe that is why this got lost: because if wasnt being worn on the wrist. Keep in mind soldiers arriving in the area were as ignorant as any other tourist.
An observation - I'd suggest that the serial number was punched in before the 'C O E' at the top. This is suggested by the E, and possibly the C, of COE being made to fit the space left. If the COE came first, then the bottom of the E would not look like that.
Under magnification, the tops of the numbers 5948 are dead in line horizontally. This sort of accuracy is hard to achieve freehand, which suggests the serial number was first drawn in using a graphite pencil, as no scribe marks are seen.
For some reason, the COE seems not to have been drawn in first, otherwise the letter placement would have been a lot better.
What does it all mean? - Nothing. It was just what I noticed as I was drinking my coffee.
I am about to sip in an Irish coffee and completely agree with your observation about the COE being an improvisation/second thought.
the "4" shows some real precision, but none of the letters seem as good
Thanks
Thx for sharing your research I enjoy it very much ! I think maybe the initials are a love interest, I would like to send you pictures of a bracelet I found I dont know how old it is but it looks like it could have been purchased from a army PX , it was found with a metal detector not far from Ft. Thomas Ky.
Sure, send me a picture, my email address is given in the video.
It may have been made in a mobile RAEME workshop out of scrap.....maybe not even an ID bracelet.....Perhaps a hand support for a kit bag where the straps pass through it?
I lost one of my ID tags in Afghanistan over a decade ago. I wonder if someone will find it in the future and sell it to someone like you who is interested in the war and does these kind of projects. Funny to think about.
Wait and find out ;)
the object itself looks like a buckle or clasp, as if it had a strap threaded through it when issued, and the bumps provide grip points when adjusting the strap
I'm having trouble about the top engraving and what it is or isn't? 🤔 The bottom seems fairly obvious, but I think the top three letters/numbers/symbols could be a hint... I've looked at handwriting tables that have similar "D"s so I find it odd that "DJD" is done to this detail, yet the top appears to be something different with every character/number chart I look at... Even the serial number only appears to be a serial number half the time I glance at it... I really hope you get some better help than me to solve this mystery! Great video as always 👍
Very good comment. Many serial numbers in the cemetery register are preceded by one or several letters, just like the Australian and Canadian ones mentioned in the video. There are also many others such as PAL for Palestinians, SAP for South African Police, etc.
The top letters on the bracelet could very well be a prefix to the serial number. However no serial numbers seem to have prefixes resembling COE/JOE/LOE.
Send a sample for forensic chemical analysis. The alloy composition may indicated where, when, and how the metal was made.
It could be a piece of Soviet aluminum the Germans captured in USSR, then used in Africa where the item was destroyed, and a soldiers from the other side of the world picked up the piece of aluminum to make his tag.
Thank you for another great video! When you changed topics to talk about the Church of England, you made a "digression," not a "discretion." Sorry for being pedantic! I can't help myself 😁
I tried to say "disgression" as I thought that was the correct word. That is what happens when you film at 23:00 without having eaten. That and spelling New Zealand as New Zealand and downgrading Henry the VIIIths number ;)
@@CrocodileTear you can say anything you want 😂 I don’t mind! Thank you again for your great videos!!
The style of the cursive capital letters looks very french for the time period, especially the lower letters.
Other countries had often other styles (in particular the germans whom you ruled out already... but also the British to some extent rarely used such an exact style which was typically taught in french schools of the first half of the twentieth century).
Also, what if the first letter would not be a C and this "Church of England" nice similarity with british tags would just be unfortunate chance, the letters meaning something else ending in "O.E."?
That first letter very much looks like an old alternate style of cursive Q (resembling a cursive L).
I agree the letters look exactly like cursive letters I learnt in french schools and that dont really seem to be used in other countries. I will try to find some examples of free french serial numbers and see if there could be a possible match.
Regarding the COE, it doesnt make any difference in all the people with serial number 15948 I managed to find. None have initials or anything else that seem to match COE or LOE.
Hi - This is pretty out there, but rather that the letters on the top being "COE" could they spell "Joe"? Could that tie up with the J in DJD at the bottom? The generally shape reminds me a bit of a tiki with is a traditional item associated with New Zealand in general and the Maori people in particular. It's an interesting mystery and thanks for your time and efforts putting it out there.
The bracelet looks looks like a Tiki which is a New Zealand good luck symbol
What if the first symbol is a Celtic triquetra or trinity knot and a heart beside it?
middle one looks like an heart.
did you try omitting the lead letters from countries such as Canada, also could that be IOE instead of COE, love your channel
I tried looking up the Australians as you saw. The Canadian WWII service records are not public yet so cant be searched. However the number of Canadians was very small compared to the other nations mentionned.
try Library and Archives Canada and if they can't help you ask them about genealogists that they might recommend to assist you, they do charge a small fee as most are students, they helped me some what@@CrocodileTear
you should take a look at the service numbers with letters in front of them, it is not unusual that service numbers were put on something and the letter was not added. This is something you regularly see with Canadian items such as cutlery and other items, perhaps other commonwealth countries also did this?
I tried that for Australian numbers, with no success
Looks to me it is a charm for the wrist rather than an ID badge. If it were an ID badge, it sure failed badly.
It is certainly something for the wrist, yes.
I see the O in COE as a heart and not an O. And what is though to be a C in COE is not a C ..Like maybe I Love E... Or another initial love E ... That is what I see as soon as I saw it ... but this is based on the O definitely being a heart and not an O. I also like the thought that the 15.9.48 maybe be a date .. Just some thoughts...
I noticed the odd line in the 'O' and wondered that too.
Well...whatever the truth is, I think most would agree that , as an ID tag, this thing fails.
Indeed, but it least it isnt a government ID tag failure are shown in some of my other videos.
The very first thought that came to my mind was that the number might be a date. in the notation that is used in germany, 15.9.48 would be September 15th 1948 and it is maybe the date of marriage, and the initials of the couple. I don't know how dates (and I do not mean the fruit) are notated in Egypt, but if it was from 1948, it won't be likely to belong to a foreign soldier.
OR
the date refers to anything that happened in the palestine war (47-49). But in Egypt they probably would have used arabic letters...
Greetings from Germany,
Marcus
The "9" of the SN, was not done by an English writer. If it is a "9", it looks much more German in style, which coupled with the comment about the two dots within the letter "O", makes for interesting thoughts. If the letters above the numbers are COE, could that be the / a surname?
Not much help, I suppose, just more thoughts.
Out there everything is over priced items you never knew you needed.
Unsure , its certainly an interesting item. Ive got a french franc from ww1 that had been turned into an identity disc for a nurse called E. Thompson Pegge. She was with the VAD, voluntary aid detachment. Apparently these nurses were the ones with the big red cross on their outfits but these were all volunteers who had the means to pay for their keep whilst they were 'in service', they had to pay for their own uniforms i believe. Some were men who were drivers of ambulances. I suppose a lot of these people would have gotten their own id discs made. Maybe the VAD were in the desert during ww1?....or some other voluntary unit?😊😊😊😊cheers Jean-Loup
The 15948 means there should have been 15947 other people in whatever organization this person was from.
@@CrocodileTear ah yeh I will check my VAD disc out, don't think it had a number unsure. I hope you find out where it's from🙂🙂
I read it as "S" so "SOE", I think some local craftsman made it. He didn't know English so it was probably copied from a handwritten note. I don't think it's Greek, those aren't Greek letters.
I could be totally wrong here but I don’t think that first letter resembles a C for CoE, in fact if you join the dots up it resembles more an L (at a push) or a B. Not that this helps much mind you.
It looks like "L ❤ E" to me
@@ludovica8221 haha so it does, just to add more confusion to the puzzle.
As said in the video, I also read L, but I think it could also be a C.
I don’t think that 1st letter is a “C”.
Is 15948 a date 15 Septembeer 1948 ??? So a post-war item??? Also... I tend to agree with the poster who suggested that the "O" is actually a heart ... so "E" is the beloved... and the first letter is "Who Knows What" as it is so stylized... but m...a...y...beeee it is an "I"....
I know it’s not likely but could the “SN” instead be a date? September 15, 1948? Also to my inexpert eye the design kinda looks like a quasi rope motif. So maybe a wedding memento with initials and a date?
Could the top lettering read 'LOE', the service member's last name, or perhaps his initials, followed by their serial number and perhaps his girlfriend's initials below? I get the impression that this bracelet was made by a POW, with limited tools and materials, perhaps to replace their ID that went missing.
More likely a fancy C like the one in Coors beer
Definitely home made ,hand crafted perhaps by a local shop vendor with crude tools trying to eek out a living
Interesting as always. Good.luck
15948 could be a date 15 sept 1948
Here's a long shot: South Rhodesian soldier
I think I looked into that, and they had South African serial numbers
I can't read a C. It looks more like an elaborate Q for me.
6:54 - British commonwealth government cared more how to make dog tag as cheap as possible, solider’s life came last. - maybe bracelet was a gift from soldier’s child?. Because metal cut outs and misalign lettering look like it’s done by someone who’s learning to use the tools .
Top letters could be in Greek - First one Omega (which may mean 'O' in English) - Second One phi, (F in English) - Third E (E in English) - Greek isn't clear cut but any Greek viewers want to have a look please.
Wouldnt it be strange to have a mix of greek and latin letters on the same object?
I dont have any information whatsoever about what WWII Greek serial numbers were like
If it is COE, could it possibly be to identify a specific branch, eg, Company of Engineers. Just a random thought.
How were you able to access the South African archives I have a Africa star medal awarded to 72427 J Fuller and would like to find some info on him. I believe he is South African
Send me an email, and I will put you in touch. I am not sure he wants his email to be public.
A shame you didn't find out who this service person was, perhaps it's not a military tag at all of course! Hopefully someone can provide some insight.
This is a bit of a long shot but I’ve been Googling hand written number 4’s, I found the squiggle on 4 intrigues me and was wondering if there were ever any Romanian troops who took part on the German side in the desert campaign during the World WarII what do you think🤔. The reason I’m mentioning it is that there was I think a candle stick holder that was dug up in Ukraine from the Eastern campaign, it had a date stamped into it that was the same as If the numbers had been stamped in with using a nail with dots to form the numbers.
The German army contained men from Rumania
I am not sure about the letters. The first letter - more like a syript/cursive letter L? But what me confuses is the Letters in the hole picture.
I think he first stamp in the 159?8 and added then the letters above and squeeze them a little. Also i think it is cursive not block letter.
And the curves - i think it looks like the "Deutsche Normalschrift". The "DJD" U beginn the D in the top middle and end with the curve at top left.
Also look at the "COE" There are two dots in the O?
I think the two dots in the O are to make it look cursive, like here: www.redbubble.com/i/sticker/Letter-O-in-big-cursive-font-by-ComfyCloud/99408581.EJUG5
The numbering style is reminiscent of the numbers you’d see on a German tank turret, could this in fact belong too a german soldier?. also the first letter at the top doesn’t resemble the letter ‘C’ but more like a ‘Q’. The second letter has extra punch holes coming in from the top on the circle. It’s a strange item that’s for sure
Do you happen to watch Mark Feltons videos? Do you think he's a reliable source of information? I love watching his videos but I'm not educated enough to know if he's giving accurate information.
Mark Felton always does meticulous research and his content is always reliable
I think I have only ever seen one or two of his videos, and everything seemed correct to my ears and eyes on those episodes.
He is held in high esteem by mostly everybody i think he good with his research
I reckon it is from WWI just by the rather primitive manufacture. Hard to see that someone in 1940's would have been proud to wear that. It looks like the sort of thing a soldier would craft while in his down time.
Hey, you may want to check out the Māori battalion registry, and the registries of any other units that enlisted and kept the records of men separate from their nation's enlistment and record process. Many Māori identified with their tribe rather than the nation so would never have identified themselves as being a New Zealander.
I'm sure an ethnic unit like the Māori battalion wouldn't be unique un that aspect.
George- peter- The most weirdo war story ahh heard off was from may dad- Frank O'Dwyer.- He was with a Maori soilder in Italy , who had a habit off takeing only the Gold watches off the germens he personnaly killed .- Just before battle of monte cassinno He shoved his arm in too my dads face and said - This arm will be loaded too my armpit with all the gold watches from the germens ahh personnlly kill, too match my Gold watch on my wrist. 7 days after makeing this statement Dad found him shot dead and the Gold watch taken. - Possible that gold watch in 2023 Germany with His name and details on it. - ?????
As far as I see from the Alamein cemetery register, the Maori were given the exact same serial numbers as other NZ soldiers, and as shown in the video NZ soldier 15948 was discharged after 11 days of service...
i would love to find a watch with his name.
Can you try and get it dated ? I may be off track and a bit over the top, but metals manufactured after the 40's contain small amounts of radioactive decay particles, strontium 90 i believe.
Dont know where you'd even begin to find a lab that does that.
This sounds a bit expensive, and even today finding pre 1945 aluminum is not difficult
''Achtung'''- ''The spelling on that Hit list off - New Zealand.- They reakon Prophet off Doom - Marcel Nostradamus made a Doomsday prophecy off a future nation at the bottom off the planet and he spelled it - New Zeeland , just like on that list off possible nations that you have here. - ??????
Sorry about that. Big mistake on my part. New Zealand is spellt differently in French (Zélande), English and German (Neuseeland ) and I am always confusing the spelling.
Originaly the name came from the Dutch Zeeland, and Zealand is actually an anglicized version. So perhaps not so big mistake after all ;)
Looking at cursive samples the first letter at the top could be a Q, I don’t think it’s a C. The next does appear to be an O and the last an E.
wow
Very interesting as always, I hope this will be resolved.
Any chance the locals could have slipped a fake war artifact in the lot to make it more attractive to tourists? Aluminum is easy to work with and doesn’t accumulate patina like most other metals do with age.
What is the tiny speck of red on the right side of the bracelet, paint remnants?
The red looks like felt pen, but I am not sure.
I think it is higly unlikely it is fake, based on my experience in the area, and the fact that the locals are completely clueless about this stuff except when there is a swastica. Anything with a swastica is what is considered precious.
Thank you.
I really wish you will resolve this one as well. I’m confident you will.
Red dot = blood?
My stepdad served in the Indian army in the desert and was COE,. remember it was a colony of the British Empire.
Could this have been a temporary tag as he lost his tag and when it got replaced it was disposed of?
Italians were making great tags compared to most nations at the time.
Did you see my video about the German tags? th-cam.com/video/d0pOz94Ej1g/w-d-xo.html
The shape of the number 9 looks continental in shape a British 9 goes straight down and doesn’t curl underneath.
And what about the shape of the bottom bar on the E?
The person doing this was taking certain liberties, and also mixing block and cursive letters.
That is from India,they used punches to write on metal,that tag is hand made,not an official one given to soldiers. British India had many Sikh soldiers, maybe it is not a soldier tag but something else,definitely Indian made,the Indentured laborers from India had the same type of ID plates hanging on their neck. Keep trying.Love your videos.
Indeed, since making the video, I have found out that in WWII, Indian units still each issued their own serial numbers, which is why I found multiple Idian soldiers with this number. The problem is that it will not be possible therefore to find out who this belonged to as the Indian archives are apparently not very accessible.
What is the probability of an Indian army soldier having been Church of England?
A needle in a stack of needles
That's my favorite situation 😄
Egyptian crafty villagers have been supplementing income, selling self made antiques to foreigners since Napoleon came by. When presented among a pile of authentic but cheaper stuff.....nice mystery. I hope I'm wrong about this one.
I am well versed in what the local Eygptians do and in WWII artifacts, and would be willing to bet a large sum of money this thing is perfectly authentic.
@@CrocodileTear I trust your judgement. Being in Belgium we have war junk up to our knees in some parts of the country. If you're ever in the region let me know, we'll have walk around my woods. bring a wheel barrow and shovel.
@@offgridcabinbelgium Thanks for the invitation ;)
WWI seems possible, I’m not sure on the other commonwealths but British serial numbers were often numerical 5 digits then from what I’m seeing and they did have a fiber/cardboard disc used then as well but some were aluminum. Google seems to say soldiers and especially sailors didn’t trust these tags so they often made their own of metal same as in the Second World War. Are there data bases for WWI as there is for WWII? May be worth revisiting that route.
In WWI, each unit issued its own serial numbers, so one would have to get the serial numbers of all units and look for one matching a soldier with the initials on the tag... A very difficult buisness.
I found out that India still used such a system in WWII, so I am now convinced this tag is Indian. And since their archives are apparently not accessible, decoding the tag will not be possible it seems.
Another great video, i thought that Canada was part of the commonwealth. The letter punching looks that it was done on the cheap, an officer would have paid for a better bracelet, more engraved. Could this have been done by the soldier himself with basic tools, ie tank crew or RE Royal Engineer. As for COE church of England, well it wouldn't be a Indian as they were Sikh or Hindu Buddhist. Although your forum members say the top three letters are COE, the C looks like a mangled mess and the O has some dots down from the top, could this COE be another name or be the initials of the guy rather than the bottom lettering, was it normal to put initials at top or bottom either way? May have to look at the bracket again.
Canada is of course, but their serial numbers start with a letter, and only a small number of Air Force personnel were present in Egypt.
Is there a possibility of a soldier from Rhodesia or another British colony in Africa suck as Kenya having an ID number that would fit?
Did your father serve in Bomber, fighter, coastal or transport command?
My grandfather. As far as I know he remained in Canada as an instructor due to his "old age" (approx 30).
@@CrocodileTear They say that being an instructor was dangerous too. Over 12000 bomber command training casualties and thats without the 56000 KIA on operations. A lot of tour expired aircrew preferred to volunteer for a second tour rather than becoming an instructor at a training unit- because of the risks associated with it. Yes, your Grandfather being 30 years of age would have been considered an old man by other airmen. There was a British MP who volunteered for Bomber aircrew and was KIA at 56 years of age. I read it in the Bomber command losses series of books
It looks to me like a Maori tiki from 28th batt
New Zealand is ruled out as far as I understand, as all their men and officers regardless of unit were given numbers from the same block. NZ soldier 15948 was only in the army for 11 days and didnt have any initials matching those on the bracelet, as shown in the video.
Fascinating video, thank you. From a totally un-military perspective, could this be a bracelet to celebrate the birth of a child made by someone far from home? Top line reads L♥E (Parents first name initials. Second line is the child's date of birth, third line child's initials?
The rule with these handmade things is that there is no rule ;)
So yes, it could be anyrthing.
Great information. Two ideas. 1. Look not for the number but for names with the initials DJD. The number might be wrong. 2. This looks more like a bracelett than a dog tag. 3. it looks handmade. Could it have been made in a POW camp and the numbering does not relate to any countries numerical system. 4. The guy you bought it from made it in his garage.
How can I look for all the soldiers with initials DJD from the UK, NZ, Australia, South Africa, India, etc? It is a bracelet.
Are you shure that the C is an C? To me it looks more like an older style of written letters that is not common any longer. Could be perhaps an letter d or L if I compare it with fonts from the beginning 1900s. Have you considered that it maybe could be from an egyptian army soldier? Egypt had ca. 100000 men in 1940.
I am not sure of anything, but dont see why an Egyptian soldier would use Latin alphabet.
what I thought was a cursive L could be a cursive I meaning it could be I love E