The mysterious identification tag of soldier Florindo Pintuccio - An ID tag that defies its purpose
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ย. 2023
- A World War II Italian identification tag is found to have so many mistakes, that it is apparently impossible to find out who it actually belonged to. The name, serial number and location of birth as written on the ID tag have been confirmed to be incorrect. The state archives in Agrigento, the soldier's military district, have been incapable of finding out who the tag belonged to. Despite all the information on the ID tag, it defies its own purpose!
Can anyone help find out who this soldier was:
16683 (60) Pintuccio Florindo di Bernardo i Piturru Vittoria 1913 Caranciaros Agrigento
Possible corrections given by viewers: Calangianus , Olbia , Florindo Pinducciu , Pinuccio , Vittoria Pitturru
Antonio Pinducciu (1872-1966) Vittoria Pittoru (1882-1972) Bernardino Pinducciu (1872-1966)
battlefieldarchaeology.blogsp...
researchww2.blogspot.com/
A Crocodile Tear Productions documentary.
Piastrina - archivio du stato - cognome - Calangianus - WWII - how to research a World War II Italian identification tag - identity disks - dog tags - erkennungsmarken - hundmarken - plaques d'identité - mistakes - incorrect - typos - deadly typos - Italian Army - forensic - identification of war dead - 1939 -1942 -1945 - militaria collection - ruolo matricolare - archivio di stato - cia - spy - special forces - secret services - archivio di stato di agrigento - Regio Esercito - Mussolini - fascism - Laconia - sinking - u-boot - Laconia incident - false identity - criminal record -
- Ghirelli Virgilio. 4.4.1908, Arezzo. Di Guiseppe e Branci Palmira
- Vizzini Angelo. 20.10.1921. Grotte. Di Angelo Vizzini e di Binnici Elisa.
- Bott Bruno, 18.5.1919. Romeno Trento. Di Giuseppe e Gabardi Modesta.
- Tizzi Giovanni Tizzi
- Gabin Natale Gabin
- Soto Tenente Franco Chiarello Dr Franco Chiarello Francesco 26 febbraio 1906 26.02.1906 Napoli
-Florindo Pinducciu Calangianus - บันเทิง
![เปิดบ้านสุดหรู "เเจ็ค the ghost" ลั่นถ้าป๋องกพลลำบากผมเลี้ยงเอง!! l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1xbW4vULqGc/mqdefault.jpg)
I might have a lead for you. It could be a Sardinian name, actually Pinducciu rather than Pinduccio.
There was an Antonio Pinducciu (1872-1966) who married Vittoria Pittoru (1882-1972). They had a daughter, Angelina (1909-1927) and all three are buried in Olbia. They would be the right age to have had a son in 1913. As you mention, the guy was probably illiterate and the military officer perhaps unfamiliar with Sardinian names. Could the place of birth be Calagianus? L and R are commonly interchangeable in pronunciation, as a C and G in some tongues. There's a record of a Nicola Pinducciu being born in Calagianus in 1844 and the surname is linked to that town.
Update: Some sources point to Antonio Pinducciu's first name really being Bernardino.
Thanks a lot for this information, I will be sending out the letters to verify this possibility in the next days. Three different people told me to try Calagianus, so this seems like a solid lead to follow. I will also try Olbia.
It still doesnt explain why the serial number or name dont correspond to anything in the archives, but we will take it one step at a time ;)
Edit, I guess both the serial number and name must have a typo, which is why both lead to nothing at the Agrigento archive.
The language variations of Italy makes something like that even more difficult.
Good catch! The mother’s surname Piturru sounds definitely from Sardinia, even if it’s quite unusual.
It makes sense. Not too many people could read and write back then. I could totally see the guy making the dog tag just putting down whatever he understood from the soldier dialect.
One thing is certain, this is more than a deliberate deception by the individual soldier. For example, if the guy had supplied false details, including the date of birth, then the Italian military would have given him a serial number that matched that DOB. But they didn't.
At a wild guess, this is someone who didn't want someone coming up to them and saying, 'Hey, I know people from your home town' or 'You have the same last name as me!' This sort of reminds me of some of the imaginative thinking of some of the small splinter groups of British spooks in WWII.
Then again, it could just have been some Italian house breaker who bribed the dog tag guy to give him a break.
@11:50 Some people enlisted, or conscripted, did not want their identities known for many reasons. Criminal record, evading that or debts, or taxes, making a "fresh start", etc. So they would make up an identity. Used to be very easy to do before there were consolidated record keeping and electronics.
In that case it will be pretty much impossible to ever find their true identity. Just as they wanted. Just not in the circumstances they probably intended.
Best of luck though.
I certainly didn't think of that. Dictatorships are usually careful with people's identities, so I dont know how likely this scenario is with Fascist Italy. I saw soldier's files where the town hall had to confirm the soldier had no mental illness, communist tendencies, etc. This is an idea to be explored.
Edit 24 hours later: even a person who enlists with a false identity, should have his false identity registered under his serial number in the archives.
Or the guy made that dogtag can also not read just like the soldiers... or he was somebody from Secret Service. In Hungary was a normal thing under the Soldiers some spys to lock for moral and everything.
Regardless, his serial number should match the file of the false ID he would have enlisted with.
@@Gabikah233 I would hope that the Italian army knew enough to assign the ID tag engraving work to somebody who knew how to read and write as 80% of the soldiers knew to do.
@@petert2481 A soldier enlisting with a false identity should have a corresponding file with the false ID in the archives under his serial number. His false name should also be listed in the archives.
"Once Is Happenstance. Twice Is Coincidence. Three Times Is Enemy Action" - Ian Fleming
Caranciaros is definitely a misspelling of Calangianus (SS), a small town in north-east Sardinia. The town is also locally spelled as Caragnàni and Calanzanos. Pitturru and Pinducciu are both sardinians surnames attested in the area
Judging by your profile picture and what you said, I’m presuming you hail from Sardinia. If so, perhaps you could do some digging and look in the archives of the town where this unknown man comes from.
It's a common problem in Italy for that time, for example my great grandmother had as surname NOTTI and her brother has NOTTE. Since her parents didn't speak italian but just Piedmontese dialect they said Nœc to the registry officer, this word measn both "night" (notte) and "nights" (notti)...
very interesting!
A lot of Italians in Italy at the time could not speak or read Italian. They either spoke dielec, or a regional language such as Romagnol (or Romagnolo, as today's Italians insist on calling it) which is still spoken somewhat in Romagnia. The only geographic area which spoke Italian as an everyday language was Tuscanny, and even then it was about 90 percent Italian. Romagnol by the way, is completely indecipherable by other Italians. The joke is: "It sounds like a Russian trying to speak French, or a Frenchman trying to speak Russian".
What I am wondering is if the tag was a counterfeit, meant for infiltration/espionage/sabotage.
The quantity of errors is beyond the normal. So, either it is a fake, or for some reason, they gave this man a new identity, the Italian government, perhaps like witness protection in the US.
The idea that Italian resistance fighters attempted to infiltrate Il Duce's miltary and only knew enough to keep the district the same, that idea seems the likeliest, to me. Basically, they made everything but the district from whole cloth.
It is not as if they could connect to the Internet and double check. The resistance fighters would hope he would be lost in the shuffle. Best thought that I had.
Hello Jean-Loup
Your tenacity is admirable 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Thank you and all the best
Christoph
2:24 "Gott, Bruno" can mean Gottfried too. In northern Italy they have South Tyrol and Trentino, where many German speaking live since around 2000 years. So of course Italian people can have German names... 😊
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. In this case my hunch was correct, this soldier was not named Gott.
In a very Roman Catholic country like Italy, you can check the Baptismal records in the Parish Church. The Church is very good at maintaining these records. Godspeed, Jean-Loup. Godspeed!
OK, but in which parish?
Following that train of thought, I know the Mormons have been digitizing birth/baptismal records from all over the world for the International Genealogical Index, which they use in their programme of posthumous conversion of the dead. Not everyone agrees with that, so they probably meet with a lot of obstruction, but might they have relevant files online?
all of them @@CrocodileTear
You probably know this, but around 1900 much spelling was purely phonetic.
I found 3 brothers of my family in the official birth registry, with the same family name spelled in 3 different ways (that would sound very similar)
Indeed. But this doesn't explain the non existant birthplace and serial number.
Italian is not a language that usually suffers from phonetic spelling mistakes. It is not like English, where written and spoken went their merry ways apart. It might happen that a hurried speaker might pronounce a “”C” that sounds like a “G”, for example, but nothing more than that. And certainly the situation hasn’t changed with time, meaning that the possible mistakes which were made in the 1900 are exactly the same that might be made nowadays.
Italian words are pronounced the way they are written and viceversa so the only possible mistakes can come from bad handwriting or from mishearing a word.
@@giuliobernacchia1848L and R have been interchangeable in many languages throughout history.
@@sugarnads And in this case the Caranciaros is apparently in fact Calangianus, so both the G and the L would have been exchanged as both of you have explained.
The work you do is amazing. Good luck with this Italian one. Looking forward to the solution video.
A couple thoughts occur...
These might not be traditional "mistakes" but a product of how they were manufactured. I would guess that these were manufactured by taking individual letter dies or stamps and arranging them into a jig of some kind and then pressing them as a group into the tag. It's likely that a number of people making the tags would share one set. These sets would have a limited number of duplicate letters, so if all the "G" dies were in use, they might be forced to use a letter that was similar ("C"), the letter swapping may have even been standardized. This was a common practice on early printing presses when they did not have sufficient letter stamps for a page. It was also common for 6 & 9, d & p, q & b, 0 & o, i & 1 & l to share dies.
Continuing that train of thought, the stamps would be organized into letter bins to be easily and quickly grabbed. Something like a C or G could very easily be placed in the wrong bin, their mirrored nature making them harder to recognize. The next person to use the letter would not bother to look at the stamp itself but at the bin it was placed in.
Finally with how poor literacy rates were at the time, and spelling standards tending to either not exist or be very regionalized. Multiple spellings of the same word were very common. It is entirely possibly that some of the "mistakes" were just assumptions on what was an acceptable phonetic spelling of a word.
I don't know if any of these scenarios apply, but thought I might offer some unasked for insight into why this might have been so prevalent.
Following the above logic it might be possible to create a table of the most common letter swaps using the swaps you've found on other tags as a guide to create a list of possible alternative words to better search the records for. This would be a fairly easy excel spreadsheet to make. Besides the swaps you found I would also look for potential inversions such as the two 6s being 9s or a combination of 9 & 6. Also you should check the most common cursive writing styles of the time and try to match them to print letters they look similar to, it's possible the people making these couldn't read, and were just copying what was written to the best of their ability. You should also consider letters that have a similar sound, if these were being sounded or read to the person making the tag, some of the swaps could have been from mishearing and by considering similar sounding letters when spoken non phonetically you might be able to find where the mistake(s) is at.
Regards,
Your observations are extremely astute and to the point. But we are talking about identification tags here, not newspapers, so I dare hope (without actually believing), that the Italian army had something slightly better organised than whot you describe.
In law enforcement, undercover detectives are authorized to have a completely fictitious identification created (drivers license or ID card). Is there a chance that there was some sort of special military unit back then that would utilize such a false ID?
Considering the front line fox hole this was found in, I really dont think so
If this hypothesis were to be explored, I wonder if modern Italian intelligence services have a record of this kind of things.
@@GerardMenvussa If they did have a record of this sort of thing, I don't think they're going to share it with anyone, even though it's been almost 80 years since the war ended.
Nah. Blame it on illiteracy. Just like the guy who insists it’s a US helmet and misspells half of his sentences. Lol
It seems there is a whole chunk of numbers that were not allocated by the military district of Agrigento to soldiers born in 1909, but series before and after that chunk were used. Could a chunk have been allocated to a special unit that bypassed the normal records? Not necessarily secret, just not the normal infantry. Maybe that unit's records were lost to bombing or fire.
Encore et toujours aussi passionnant, merci à vous pour votre travail et pour son partage 😉
If you were a spy you had to blend in, so you might need a dog tag.
I would imagine that the allies were aware how Italian dog tags worked.
So you end up with a tag that looked perfect, but contained no valid information, because the person it belonged to was not actually in the Italian army, they just wanted to look like they were?
Makes perfect sense to me - but IDK if it makes sense at the place it was found.
A tip for you, many italian villages that "don't exist" could have changed their name at some point after ww2. It's not uncommon for villages and towns here in Italy to have a different name today than 50 years ago. I believe the only aid you could get is to befriend a bunch of italians from around the country and ask them to snoop around
On google you can find numerous webpages and old documents in which long extinct names can still be found.
@@CrocodileTear never stumbled upon one, but good to know anyhow
Jean-loupe doing gods work as usual. Keep it up.
Very interesting and mysterious, I hope you find all the answers.
I know nothing about the Italian military during WWII but here in Canada and in the USA, it was fairly common for teen boys to try joining the military while underage.
Some recruiting offices were very lenient and turned a blind eye while others were much stricter. Some teens created entirely fake identities and it was only discovered much later.
The Canadian Legion magazine wrote this;
“ Sometimes boys as young as 13 would lie about their age and attempt to enlist in the military. The underage volunteers who looked old enough were often accepted while many of those who were rejected ended up serving in the Merchant Navy, where they supported the war effort in a different way, transporting troops and materials overseas.
Outside of Bretteville-sur-Laize Canadian War Cemetery in France, is a monument commemorating Private Gérard Doré, the youngest Canadian soldier to die in the Battle of Normandy. The Québec teenager, who was only 16 when he died in action in 1944, serves as a solemn example of the kind of service Canadian youth made to their country.”
Indeed that is a possibility. However, assuming it is a false and invented identity, both the person's false name and his serial number should come out without any issues in the Agrigento archives.
With a birth year in 1913, the soldier would already have been in the older part of the spectrum, and this therefore doesnt sound like a fake date of of birth given by an underage soldier.
Not all heroes wear capes..
I was just thinking of the Italian Mountain soldiers,(the alpini) , who DID wear capes lol. But I know what you meant.
Atlist they wear their Underwear 🩲.... 🤪
@@bluemarshall6180 huh?
@@lancegoodthrust546 They wear their underwear out not inn.
@bluemarshall6180 Ah ok. I guess that was supposed to be some "surrender" joke.
Love your videos! Incredibly well done. I think it's a forgery for some unknown purpose. Very intriguing!
Another very interesting & well put together video ,thanks for taking the time & effort to put them out. I do not get to watch much YT ,but l always check out what you have put out while l am away .
Great video! As always, a joy!
The mother’s surname sounds like is from Sardinia. Moreover, the village name ending with s (unusual for continental Italy) may point to Sardinia too. Just an idea…
See the other comments. someone found a possible match in Calanganus.
It's always really interesting to see when you are able to decode something and get a response from the family. This is very interesting in its own right due to the dearth of information. Maybe whomever made the tag was particularly careless that day, or as others mentioned below, there is a very specific reason for it being so out of order. Whatever the situation may be, I do wish you luck in finding an answer.
Fascinating! And now we have a cliff hanger! You have us all thinking. I thought I had an idea, then scrolled down to find it has already been suggested. With the minds working on it, someone might get lucky!
5000 brains certainly work better then one. Several very good suggestions have been made already, and I will be writting several letters today.
You are extremely thorough and knowledgeable. . Jim in California
Could the guys town have been mixed up with his mothers name?
Could his town actually be Vittoria? There is a town called Vittoria about 100km from Agrigento
The problem when there are mistakes, is that then you can imagine any possible number of corrections, without knowing which could be correct or not.
Looking through the comments, crossing my fingers that Florindo’s information appears. Looked for him in la Gazzetta Ufficiale hoping he was given a military award, but found nothing yet.
Another fun video!! Thanks
Interessante! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻Espero que consiga decifrar a veracidade da tag. E pelo que li nos comentários, muitos dispostos em ajudar. Boa sorte😉
Eran soldados de infantería italianos, durante el desembarco de los estadounidenses en Sicilia, se rindieron a los estadounidenses, eran artilleros en las posiciones de las baterías costeras en Sicilia.
El verdadero nombre del pueblo es Carangeijinhas.
Unfortunately, I don't have any new suggestions to try. However, I thought of two possible explanations: [1] The ID tag was a test piece made by a worker who was learning how to typeset/press/etc. [2] The tag was made with fake credentials by an expert forger for a POW escape. When (not if) you solve this mystery, I doubt either will be the actual explanation, but both are valid reasons for why the person named on the tag "doesn't exist". I can't wait to hear when you figure it out!
This tag was found in a front line foxhole, so I dont think either of those two explanations is satisfactory. Several viewers gave me some new hints that I will be exploring.
@@CrocodileTear The "front line foxhole" location casts even more doubt on my suggestions than before. I missed that fact earlier. I had just finished watching The Great Escape again, so I may have had The Forger angle as my initial thought. Regardless, I hope your viewer hints pan out. As always, I look forward to your video.
@@CrocodileTearThe "ratlines" run by GB's MI9 to recover British and American evaders were very complex, and sympathetic serving soldiers in the Italian and German armies both aided escapes and helped with funding the ratlines.
I wonder if this chap had been one of the deserters who had formed resistance groups in Italy. He could have rejoined to get intelligence or assist other desertions, but been unable to avoid getting sent to that foxhole.
Helen Fry's book "Mi9" throws some light on the methods and extent of their work in Italy, and it seems that there were numerous Italians and Germans serving in their armies while supporting allied evaders.
I have a French tag and was able to get the soldier information from the French government in an email but then my thought was to return it to a family member if possible. That went nowhere. Not that they said no one could be located, my requests got no replies.
The government will never waste time with such things. You have to do the research yourself: write to his hometown, write to homonyms, look up possible relatives on the internet, etc.
J'ai trouvé une gazette de 1942 qui recense les cours d'eau sous pression publics de la province dEnna et qui mentionne la provenance et la sortie de la bouche d'eau.
Il y a une provenance de "Caranciaro" c'est le nom de la montagne ou vallée ou "partie haute" de l'installation ,et sa sortie "Torcicoda"
Torcicoda se trouve au NordEst de la vile agrigente à quelques kms mais s'écrit "Torcicuda"
La province d'Enna est au Nord Est de agrigente,et dessert certainement en eau celle ci en 42.
Tout ça pour dire que peut être qu'à l'époque, des repères géographiques étaient utilisés pour localiser les gens,à défaut de noms de localités.
Je mentionne la montagne Caranciaro dans la video et la réponse que j'ai recu de la ville d'Enna.
@@CrocodileTear
Tu mentionnes caranGiaro comme montagne.
Moi je lis CaranCiaro sur la gazette de 1942.
En sicilien il n'y a pas de remplacement de C par G donc ce ce sont deux endroits différents.
C''est pas comme pour "Torcicoda" qui devient "Torcicuda" en sicilien.
Tu devrais prendre en considération les mutations de lettres de l'italien en sicilien et chercher "pintoccio"
En effet, je me mélange les pinceaux avec tous ces Caran/Calan-quelque-chose 😄
Caranciaro ne sort qu'une seule fois sur google. Je trouve ca suspect et je suppose qu'il s'agit d'un Carangiaros mal orthographié.
@@CrocodileTear
La même conduite d'eau sur la même gazette en 1936 et 1971 et 2004 est orthographiée "Carangiaro" et débouche toujours à Torcicoda.
Il y a donc bien une faute d'orthographe à ce nom sur la gazette de 1942
Mais il n'y a pas de "S" à la fin.
C'est toujours dans la province régionale de l'Enna et c'est dans le vallon dello stretto, vallon sciortabene au monte Carangiaro.
Il y a le villagio Pergusa collé au monte Carangiaro,ça peut valoir le coup de demander.
Si j'ai bien suivi, tout ca se trouve dans la commune d'Enna, et Enna m'a dit qu'ils n'ont pas de traces de Pintuccios.
Arancio c'est un lac dans la province d'Agrigente, sur le territoire des municipalités de Sambuca di Sicilia, Santa Margherita di Belice et Sciacca
C A R Arancios c'est peut être "quelque chose avec "CAR" et les "orangers" et non pas arancios c'est peut être "CARBOJ ARANCIO" carboj est un cours d'eau qui irrigue le lac arancio.
"arancio" veut dire orange et "arancios" les orangers
Tu derais jeter un oeil dans les annuaires de ces localités.
Rama ,c'est aussi une localité en Italie,ça peut induire en erreur
Le problème avec tout ca, c'est que ca laisse beaucoup de "peut êtres" :)
La personne en question est bien née à Rome, pas à Rama.
Les gens ont repéré de nombreux Pinducciu vers Calangianus, je pense que la solution est là.
Maybe the tag belongs to some kind of secret service? If the guy gets caught, all data the enemy could check (like what the district 60 is), is correct. The serial number is from a contingent that was never used officially - for an unknown reason and different from usus. And all the names seem to be made up, otherwise your research would have brought at least anything to daylight.
Greeting from Germany,
Marcus
This is off topic. There are the skeletal remains of an Italian POW displayed at the Alfred Denny Museum, Sheffield University. Staff didn't know much other than the person was executed by hanging sometime during or shortly after WW1. I think its about time he was interred or repatriated.
From my experience as shown in my video "Deadly typos", I am quite sure nobody will care about this soldier, except if he turns out being part of a so called minority.
I think that the last line it’s just the province where the town of residence in the upper line is ( that usually helps to identify the town if it’s small or there’s another with the same name in another province) . In fact when the city is also the provincial capital city ther’a just one line ( firenze and roma as you showed in this video for example )
No, as far as I know it is the town of birth, and if the person moved, then the town of birth is not in the same military district as that listed at the bottom of the tag.
I have a tag of a man obrn in Tchekoslovakia for example, but the military district is in Italy of course.
Sine most people lived where they were born, in most cases the village and district will match as you say.
Unforgivable that his country lost or misplaced his records.
Many Italians emigrated to Argentina.
Great video, good luck
Portale Antenati needs to upload their records!!!
Looks like a sample dog tag with fictitious information to be used as a pattern to train personnel how to enter information on blank tags.
The last mention on the tag is the province where the city of birth is located.
Not really. It ususaly is the province where the city of birth is located, because people didnt move much back then. But when people did move, then the city of birth and the province do not match. You can have some with locations of birth outside Italy for example.
One thing I was wondering if this was just a sample ID tag with just made up names, serial number, etc. or even a counterfeit ID tag with made up information for espionage purposes.
Intriguing!
Do all dog tags you research are recovered with remains? 20 to 30% is a lot of mistakes. But when you mentioned many were unable to read and right it makes sense. When you stated it may have been someone from another country Argentina came to mind. Good luck thank you for what you do.
No, it is exceptional to find ID tags with remains. The vast majority of ID tags were lost and their owners survived the war.
I worked on the surname Virgilio here in the U.S. (Italian-American) family.
Have you concidered the individual may have been an abandoned and homeless as a child?
He may have made up a name, family, date of birth, and may not have been born in any of municipalities of the Province of Agrigento.
As for the 11683, does the number coincide with another municipality?
What you are saying is totaly possible. I dont know to what degree the Italian army was verifying its information in those days. Probably not much.
Thank you
So sad for the family !
This tag was not found with a body and there is no evidence it belonged to a soldier who died during the war.
Mother’s surname and village name have a Sardinian sound
Have you tried the number 26683? My be a rogue soldier or the tag of a foriegn intelligence operative. Someone has gone to great lengths, to hide; the true identity behind this tag!!
I have not tried that number. The archives in Agrigento seem to have become fed up of my questions. I will have to send them a box of chocolates.
Odd that it is so close to Arancia Rossa (red orange or blood orange) (and with a sicilian dialect the Sa would probably disappear from it if someone wrote it down as they heard it. Long shot but try military district 59 instead.
Is it possible that the soldier wasn't from Italy, and so they made up a town in Italy. Maybe they made up the rest of the information too. Also, could it be possible that the gap in the serial numbers could be for soldiers that aren't from Italy? I'm curious to know if they would still put the place where the soldier is from if he wasn't born in Italy. Like if he was an Italian American and born in New York, would they put New York on his dog tag, or make up an Italian place to put on it? Love the videos. Keep up the good work.
If the person was not born in Italy, then they would simply put his location of birth anyways. I have one for a guy born in Tchekoslovakia, and I have seen one for a guy born in California.
i live in San Giovanni in Persiceto, just by Crevalcore.... if you need an help... and by the way, it hits me close to home
Thanks but I contacted that guy's familly 20 years ago.
If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck..
I don’t think these are mistakes, this was made on purpose. Everything is ALMOST right, but just wrong enough to not be identified nor „compared“ - I mean that no one can come from the same town or family.
Whoever made this Tag knew exactly what he did. That the serial numbers were left out for that year, so it is not already existing for another guy, nor would someone memorate it because „it’s just two digits away from mine“. This tags owner wanted to be as invisible as possible- and that in my opinion indicates secret service.
Is it possible to learn how secret service agents, who had tasks at or near the frontlines, were made to blend in? Especially SIM and OVRA?
I think the two truths are his year of birth and his mothers first name, and I think that in the other „facts“ are hints for identification that were known then. „Florinde“ for example could hint to look in Florence, maybe here was a headquarter?
However, speculations don’t get results, but maybe this would be a path worth following.
Maybe the dog tag was made for someone not actually in the military, and they put a random serial number, and some other information that wasn't real, or wasn't the normal info that would be put on them. When my dad was in the military he had some dog tags made for me and my brothers. They had much of what normal dog tags would have on them, but me and my brothers were never in the military. So maybe it was made as a joke, or for some other weird reason.
This was found in a frontline foxhole on a real battlefield. So I am pretty sure whoever lost it was a real soldier.
Would love to see you get an honorary degree in battlefield archeology
It seems strange that 500 consecutive numbers were not used OFFICIALLY.
Was this a standard practice in the Italian armed forces then?
Are there other blocks of numbers missing?
Could those numbers have been kept free for Intelligence personnel?
While there are criminals who hide in armies, there are also people who lie in order to serve because they are too old or too young.
I myself forged an army ID in 1989 using someone elses name and details, but with my photograph which I used to go AWOL. The operator left his machine unattended to go for lunch, so a couple of us issued our own new identities.
It is possible that the soldier involved bribed the machine operator to issue a false dog tag.
I dont know why the blocks are missing. Perhaps the register with preprepared blocks were sent out to recruitment centers, and they did not all use up ther numbers in the year? In any case the archives gave no explanation and didnt seem to care.
If a soldier registered with a false ID, then that false ID should be recorded in the registers.
@CrocodileTear 500 missing numbers 16500 to 17000 is very neat, so it is obviously not random.
Can the archives tell if this has happened before and after as well?
When did the numbers go missing, and what was happening in Italy at the time those numbers went missing?
If you can't find your individual, try looking at the whole group to solve the mystery.
Good luck.
@@robert-trading-as-Bob69 16500 and 17000 are numbers I said oraly in the video to simplify.
The actual letter they sent (at 8:39 in the video) said the numbers 16574 to 17060. These numbers are actualy not very neat, and in fact rather weird.
Although the archives were very kind to respond to each of my requests promptly, the topic is obviously not of much interest to them, and each answer was as brief as possible.
I would like to know more, but I think an Italian who can go to the archives in person would be better suited to find out what happened to that block of numbers.
@@CrocodileTear That makes sense. Someone on the spot is always better.
I love a good mystery!
Funny they also had misspelling errors in the first letter. It’s not quando (when the village) but quanto (in regards to the aforementioned village we have no knowledge of its existence)
I get the impression the responses were written in haste.
Interesting stuff, context is everything where was the I'd tag found and what units were in that area? Might need to think outside the box a bit.
I know what units where in the area the tag comes from, but since they have no rosters, not much can be done from that.
Could see if 75583 is the number. 7s and 1s can sometimes be flip flopped...
As you see in the 1913 registry of serial numbers from Agrigento shown in the video, they do not go into the 70000s that year.
Some heroes were born well after the war ended. We are watching one here.
The missing serial number block in the different year is the strongest clue. I bet they were put out in batches to different workers in the office and when the block returned, they put it into the archive for this specific year.
So the worker pulled out a serial block, wrote everything down for the year 1913 and never returned this paper to the archive. OR: It was used for a specific type of soldiers, like e.g., a Foreign Legion or something like this, and thus is kept in a different archive - like the one in Rome.
Ask the archives if they can look up the block of serial numbers for you, regardless of the year they were archived, and ask them if they tell you if there's any other records which may contain these files - say maybe he was in the air force not in the infantry etc.
Another option I wasn't thinking of is, that the guy may have been from a different country. Say if he was Greek and wrote down his name etc. and two persons would need to interpret it, and translate it to Latin letters, this could be what you end up with.
absolutely. Incompetence and error are endemic in militaries. Incompetence and error are endemic in civilian bureaucracies. Here you have to deal with the exponential combination of the two. Never assume a conspiracy where simple cock-up is an adequate explanation
@@AndrewDibb-ro3uz nobody assumed a conspiracy 😂
@@RubenKelevra wasnt suggesting you did. Many others here are - I was agreeing with your suggesting the possibility of simple human error causing a measure of the confusion. I think you missed the first word in my post
*wow... who knows what next unknown things still out there?*
Nobody can know until you find the item!
Should I assume you’ve already tried Switzerland - Berne (di Berna) or in or around the region of Ticino or Grisons?
No. It does not say "di Berna", but "di Bernardo".
It could be Caranciara, comune di Enna.
I think you have a case of intentionally false I.D. here. Why, who or how? Probably no way of knowing.
Who stamped the 'dog tags' out? The same question regards the issuing of a service no? Who issues both?
Was this at local recruitment or depot level (town or city), at a district level (area), or was it national and in Rome?
If the latter, I think it was constructed to deceive (maybe the guy crossed the front lines or was an informant in POW camp. (why include false details on everything? Could be to remove all doubt from an unfortunate soul who could share enough details to be confused with and implicated in what the 'informer' was involved with?)
Could the Vatican be involved and a fake identity given to a... could be anything, they were getting Germans out of Europe to South America after ww2.
Cheers 👍
I dont know who stamped the ID tags, but the serial numbers were attributed locally at the military district level apparently.
If you have the dog tag then there is a body behind it so where is that body? another unknown grave. How did the tag get found in the first place! great work
Most ID tags are found with no body, just like this one was. Italian ID tags had very fragile chains, so they lost large numbers of them.
Perhaps it’s Carcano Italy? And was just a mistake?
Referring to a previous false identity theory…
How hard would it have been to bribe the tag maker, to make a false identity tag, in fascist Italy?
You are living under an assumed false identity, you end up in the military, and realizing that you now have a paper trail, you get a false identity tag made, and switch it out for your original ID tag, your paper ID ( with original assumed identity ) get’s horribly mangled or totally lost on the way to a new unit ( not unknown in WW2 ), so all you are left with, is your falsified ID tag, and a new paper ID is made to replace the original, using the data from the falsified ID tag. The original false identity that has a paper trail, now becomes a soldier missing in action.
If that is the case, probably about the only recourse you, as a researcher, have is now try to connect that identity tag, with a unit known to be in the area where the tag was found, to see if any unit paperwork was collected with that name, and then trying to trace backwards.
That is the only thing that I can think of, with every part of of the ID tag being wrong…it was done deliberately, and the tag maker was in on it in some way
Good luck, with areas that were fought over multiple times with different units from the same side…for all anyone knows, the guy lost his tag, became a POW and survived the remainder of the war under his birth name ( or any other that struck his fancy, if he was doing that level of skulduggery )
Why would a soldier on the front lines, who risked getting killed, want to have an ID tag with a fake ID?
@@CrocodileTear
If he already fears his government for some reason, the fear of what his government may do, may be higher than the fear of getting killed in action.
It’s unusual, but look at people who willingly risk death, when the police start asking questions, even in the USA. They start driving at speeds over 100 mph, weaving in and out of traffic, and often times they end up in a crash…if they survive, in reasonable shape they might even start shooting. I saw a video, just last night where a guy in a crash, literally came out of the vehicle shooting at police, and even after he had been shot, he still reloaded his firearm, forcing police to shoot again ( only this time one of the shots, from police, hit him in the head ).
Now place yourself in fascist Italy, you have heard rumors ( or actually know ) of less than friendly interrogations by members of the government and you believe you would be the subject of one of these interrogations. Do you still want a paper trail leading to you, even if you might get a clean death at the hands of an anonymous enemy? There is still the chance of being captured alive, in which case the government you hid from is no longer a concern either.
A person’s fear, how ever irrational it might be to someone else, just might be the impetus for going to extreme lengths in risking death ( and there is always the chance that they might live through the war ). One only has to look at all the people who crossed the barbed wire, armed patrols, and minefields ( risking death ) to flee from East Germany, during the Cold War, to see what fear of a government can drive a person to.
So, if a fake ID tag keeps his government from finding him, then the chance of winding up in an anonymous grave, may be more than an acceptable risk to him…especially if he has already given up ( or feel he was forced to give up ) everything he ever was before the war.
The question is: why do the serial numbers skip a whole series of numbers? Is it a special unit? Police?
I dont know why they skip, and apparently the staff at the archives doesnt know either.
These serial numbers were given out to the young men of the district, regardless of the uni they were in. So there is no link to any sort of particular unit.
Could this be a demonstration piece, to show the Administration soldiers, how to make this plates? In current Germany, when official documents are shown in newspapers, wallpapers (?) etc., you can read the fictional name Max Mustermann.
No, it was found on a very real battlefield.
At least 5 men called Mustermann were killed during WWII as members of the German army. No Max though.
@@CrocodileTear : There is a reason, why Mustermann appears on pictures of german documents. My english is limited, but i try it to explain. Once in weapons production, the musket or saberproducers got a weapon from ,Army', which had seals of wax and Metal, and an added document, that Gouvernement wants for example 2000 muskets of this Design. This musket with the seals and papers was the ,Muster', so Mustermann is a funny way of describing , common man' .
My wifes great grandfather was missing in action in the first world war. She recently acquired italian citizenship but getting the death certificate for him was rather difficult process. Was wondering what the history and background for finding lost WWI soldiers is?
Your question is vast. But you can obtain service records, including causes of death, very easily, wether as a foreigner or not.
ITALIANS!!! ye even on name tag... i just love them :)
How did you get get the tags? Back step through history and find out who had them and when, if possible...
LOL I should've watched for 20 seconds more..... Was on google earth looking up the village and couldn't find it
Contact the Catholic church in the town. They would have marriage certificates and maybe some other info.
If you were to design an 'Ideal' dogtag, what would it look like and what information would it contain?
Name, Serial Number, Date of Birth, Place of Birth, Service Branch (Army, Navy, Airforce, etc..)
@@alexhidell8022 Taking into account modern materials, what would it be made from etc
@@alexhidell8022 Don't forget blood type. American military dog tags have the person's blood type on them. Many also have what religion you are.
I would make it is stainless steel that resists fire and burial. On the tag I would have the full name, the location and date of birth and a unique serial number. In cases of very common names, why not also include the mother's name, or something else.
These Italian dog tags are normaly very good, as long as there are not 15 mistakes on them ;)
💔
I wonder if any nation presently uses plastic or composite tags?
Plastic is not a good idea in case of fire.
I wonder if the lists of serial numbers exist for Trapani region
I am pretty sure they do.
This tag is an exception, the first time I have had issues with an Italian tag.
@@CrocodileTear have you tried the Albo D ‘Oro for the ww1 KIA
Maybe the names show up there?? Just a thought
Dear badmonkey: I would assume that handle is a shortened version of bad even for a monkey. Speaking of wannabe youtubers, were you looking in a mirror as you typed that? Your logic chain is amazing on so many levels. Hell, I visited Berlin, so I guess that makes me a fan of Adolf Hitler in your mind, and I fought in Vietnam, so I must not have round eyes. You should contact the Biden administration. I am sure they would have a place for your skills.
I really enjoy your content.
A ‘spy’ maybe?
Thankyou & Cheers!
I dont think there were any hotshot spies in the myserable front line foxhole this was found in.
Realistically there is so much incorrect information that it begs the question wether it was done on purpose, to have an entire serial number record blanked leads me to believe possible special forces type unit. Regardless of what information is on the tag or given by the soldier, the ID number should still register to a person. The fact that it does not, plus the current other supporting information (or lack their of) leads me to think possible type of clandestine activity.
I think there is simply a mistake in the name which is why they didnt find it in their lists, and also a mistake in the serial number.
Several viewers found there is a Pinducciu (not Pintuccio) family in a village called Calangianus, we will soon know if that is perhaps the solution.
@@CrocodileTearThis sounds plausibile even if thats in Sardinia
@@gillespriod5509 The birthplace could even be in another country, that isnt an issue.
My mistake then, it seems so strange in terms of odds that it had so many errors, but as you have displayed with some of the Americans, there can be numerous errors on even a single page so very plausible too @@CrocodileTear
I guess a second point is that even in Italy and other countries in WW2 a lot of enlisted and NCOs were not literate, many could read but not write @@CrocodileTear
After The (60) its a 0(zero)ir O if o it turn Opintuccio ?
No, its a C, and I dont know what it means. Presumably Catholic as most tags have it.
What about using "Florindo" as family name and "Pintuccio" as first name? Just a shot in the dark, I know it sounds maybe a childish idea.
I dont think that is the issue.
False enlistment perhaps? Seems to be too many errors to be bad luck. Seems to be deliberate obfuscation.
Even with a false enlistment, you should be able to find the false ID in the list of serial numbers.
just a hint,...Italians always put the last names first
Is it possible that the tag is a fake? Not just the information, but the actual thing? Is it possible to get the metal checked to see if it’s the same metal that other tags are made from?
Just a thought, because (slight digression here) there are a few Commonwealth Victoria Cross medals that have been tested by metallurgists and found to be fake because the structure of the metal is not correct. It’s probably an expensive test, of course, and even if it was found to be the case, that would just open another can of worms as to why anyone would fake a dogtag . . .
I really dont think it is fake. I have never seen Egyptians have fake WWII items and the things that are considered precious by Bedouins and tourists alike are German items with a swastica.
In the meantime I think I have solved this case. Contrary to what I thought, in Indian units, each unit had its own serial numbers, so there could have been multiple Indian soldiers with this serial number. The marking COE is strange for an Indian, but I dont see any other solution other than this tag being for an Indian soldier.
@@CrocodileTearAny update so far?
@@abhishekkushwaha2455 Nothing worth sharing.
It makes me think that all the people who made the tags weren't all Italians.
The Italian tags were great, much better than most other nations of the period.
Have you seen my video about the German ones: th-cam.com/video/d0pOz94Ej1g/w-d-xo.html
maybe this was a soldier that enlisted under an assumed name, maybe because he had a police record or something.
In that case, you should be able to find him listed with his false name at the archives, based on his serial number and his false name.
Could he be an SOE agent? Or a spy? 007 etc. Ciao
Pintuccio is a nickname in italy
Was he some sort of Italian spy or special forces and his dog tags were created with false information?
Could it just be that the serial numbers are mistakenly inverted and the 16683 should read 19983. Apologise if you've already checked this.
There are a whole bunch of possibilities of mistaes, and I cant check them myself.
There have been some very good suggestions made here though, so I will be sending out more letters to possible hometowns and the state archive and we will see what comes of it.