Gamers! A small correction to bring this video in line with the current patch (7.36b) The movement speed you have when casting Cyclone on yourself through Wind Waker is now 300 movespeed instead of 360 - a slight nerf but still very valuable :)
8:16 It's not the verticality that snaps the Dream Coil. It's because Cyclone effect tosses the hero model around, as seen in 0:58. When you're on the edge of Coil, Cyclone pushes you slightly away from the max distance while invulnerable. The verticality is disproved by Wind Ranger Arcana. Her new Eul animation is stationary where she strikes a pose, her model doesn't get tossed around. So she doesn't snap the coil's X and Y axes.
This is correct, you can test it in Demo by using Tiny throw at the very edge of Dreamcoil and does not interact the same way. Eul's can break it on the edge due to the way it moves your actual unit in the air while invulnerable.
Based on research, i've seen this debate going back to when WR arcana was released (wasn't playing during that window so don't have the arcana to test myself) but in every test I've seen other players doing to prove what they claim they actually move the non-arcana hero further away from the centre of the Dream Coil before using Eul's. Not helpful testing lol.
You are correct, and you can also see this at 10:37 when LC is tracking the cycloned target. AFAIK it moves your hero in a small diamond pattern so this will always work if you're the correct distance away from Dream Coil regardless of where you're facing.
Tiny's Toss doesn't move the hitbox of the hero, only the hero model and its associated block box (the thing that stops creeps spawning in camps and enables body blocking). It's why Tiny can run underneath a tossed unit but also attack the unit that is theoretically 1,000 units in the air despite being a melee hero. And why Mirana can hit a unit at the top of Tiny's toss with an arrow. Their hitbox doesn't move upwards but their hero model and block box does. What only Valve can really tell us is whether the units hit box also moves upwards as part of Cyclone and whether Dream Coil is tied to a heroes hitbox or block box. It seems generally believed that hitboxes don't move on the Z-Axis from what we've found, which gives credence to the belief that it's only the hitbox being jostled around on the X-Y axis that enables Coil to break during the Invulnerability. We've yet to find substantial proof on the matter, but it's an interesting mystery nonetheless.
@@beneaththeveili believe cyclone truly moves the hero into the air, as while applying nullifier on a cycloned hero you have to click on the actual hero model thats spinning around in the air. also the reason why tests move the hero away from cyclone is to put the hero at the very edge of dream coil, as the breaking point is slightly further away than the radius seen on the ability.
If you play primal and use the cyclone you actually still do dmg while trample is active as it counts as movement. It is fun to kill someone with blademail as you don't take dmg.
I'd honestly never thought of this, mainly because I main support and when I rarely get to play mid or offlane I prefer summons heroes or high mobility heroes like Puck. I assume Trample only works like that with Wind Waker and not with just the Eul's Cyclone? That's a smart counterplay. Well done!
@@beneaththeveil i’m pretty sure normal cyclone still counts as movement, albeit very little. Your hero actually “wiggles” back and forth a bit in the air, that’s why you can safely break coil if you euls right at the very tip.
Appreciate that! Adrian is much like us, we like to get into the bones of DOTA mechanics and truly understand just how they're designed. Full credit goes to him for popularising this style of educational content and bringing all the players who want a more in-depth understanding of the game together. We know all too well just how much detail there is in the game when looking into a single spell, item or game mechanic so always appreciate when he covers a mechanic as it means we don't have to do a video on it and can focus our efforts somewhere else.
Loving your Videos. I am really a fan of how detailed your explanations are. I have been buying Nullifier against necro for a while but only learned whats going on because of you.
Yes! Storm Brewling is another source of the Cyclone spell too. We're slowly building up a backlog of videos to eventually be able to do a video covering how Primal Split actually works ;)
Below are a few uses I have for euls not mentioned. Some are highly hero specific, while others are more general. With Sand king, if you know the enemy is carrying dust as their detection, you can euls yourself to be safe in your sandstorm in otherwise perilous locations. This allows you to sandstorm with impunity if you know their items. It can also be used to prevent a save after initiating (burrowstrike sven, euls approaching SD). It can also be a setup for epicenter or to close distance for more right clicks on a fleeing target. For death prophet, Euls is a great tool for turning not just with exorcism as you mentioned, but also with siphon. Popping two siphons then going into euls will heal significant hp while dealing significant damage if they are turning on you, especially against melee hero's. I stopped playing 4 years ago, but id imagine this ability is augmented greatly with windwaker. If they flee, you can stay ontop of them with your uncontrolled damage. If they threaten you more than you them, you can flee into your team forcing them to choose if following you is worth it. An excellent gambit tool as euls improved dramatically as windwaker. Having to play around this makes your opponents need to be able to know they can burst/control you to 0 or else have been baited which is a good deterrent for the hyper aggressive play that DP operates on with her ult while pushing. While that is more DP focused. The same "buy time to heal and punish aggression' is used for bloodstone users like Lesh too. For SK and DP, the free pathing is more busted than you make it out to be. SK is elusive, and extremely so if you can play around ledges during team fights as the few seconds it would take to path around the ledge can get your blink, stun or sandstorm up which are all but a free escape. DP is less worried about escaping but having 1 more second to heal and do damage. With low cooldown spells, even if you can be tracked back down with little issue, an extra 1 or 2 seconds can win a fight. Also it is just generally a good kiting tool
Some great tips there for sure. Valve eventually realised how busted being able to dispel dust was in the case of SK so they've now made dust undispellable and heroes hit by the true sight have it linger on them even after leaving the AoE. The tip of setting up a solo Epicenter with Cyclone is certainly sound, and akin to SF Requiem if you can get the timing down to prevent any heroes with a stun, hex or silence interrupting the windup time. Extra time under Spirit Siphon is definitely another application! Demonstrating Exorcism felt more applicable to all skill ranges as a specific example but yes, the healing of Spirit Siphon during the 2.5s of invulnerability isn't to be disregarded either. Same as Leshrac and a hero introduced in the time since you stopped playing, Primal Beast who the movement tied to Wind Waker can be a great gambit tool to continue dealing damage through Invulnerability and discourage enemies from pursuing a fight they might in the moment be winning. The free pathing was definitely undersold, but for the sake of video length we try not to belabour any one point too excessively. Cutting lines of sight with free pathing is always an incredibly strong ability to be able to leverage at every stage of the game. Appreciate you stopping by and leaving a comment. Perhaps this is a sign from the universe/Gaben/TH-cam that you should come and get your toes wet in your old favourite game? You've clearly still got all the knowledge stowed away all these years later ;)
@@beneaththeveil Thank you for the critique. I hadn't realized the change with the dust. I will not come back to the game. Addiction is one hell of a thing, and I can never play dota again for any reason because of it. Not having played for over 4 years, I still dream about relapsing almost monthly. If I may suggest, heavens halberd would be a great shorter video. It is a simpler item with a lot of uses, but I could write a dissertation on why its dooms best item. Let me know if you would like me to drop the brain rot on it
Fair enough, I can respect the decision to not return in that case. The disarm mechanic in general is definitely something we'll cover at some point for newer players. Lots of things on the list already. Appreciate the offer of help regardless and appreciate you stopping by
The best way to use the scpter is when the support need ti disengage out of a fight Most important when upgreated to wind waker you can jump of to a high ground giveing a time to tp
Glad you enjoyed! Nice to see an Earth Spirit enjoyer out there. The Rolling Boulder change made playing him so much less fun, need to add something to make Magnetise a bit more powerful to balance things out again or something
Very true! Sources of spells that target invulnerable units are few and far between. But something to be aware of if looking to purchase Eul's or Wind Waker.
Hahaha don't worry about it man, everyone likes to be technically correct ;) We mainly made videos for new players but it seems with our growing popularity we've attracted actual gamers so we'll have to up the base knowledge level to meet them. It's all good :)
Oracle can dispel defensive cyclones, either by preemptively using fortunes end on the target or by using the aoe to hit the target. I don’t know whether he can dispel offensive cyclones though
It's actually one of the few spells that can target invulnerable units as part of its base ability so yes, Oracle can both purge offensive and defensive uses of Cyclone so long as he isn't the one in the cyclone :) It's a pretty neat skill. He does have to target the hero model if it's up in the air which can be a bit janky and then cancel the channel immediately, so it's debatable how impactful it can be but it's certainly a piece of tech to have in your back pocket if you're in a bind :)
It definitely can be! But it falls flat on its face a bit against heroes itemising around Nullifier. Back in the day when Dust used to be dispellable, it was so annoying to play into an offlane Sand King going Blink + Wind Waker. Genuinely impossible to deal with.
We think you might be misunderstanding what we're explaining here. You can not self cast Nullifier which means there is only 3 items that can prevent an enemy from setting up a Cyclone Stun combination on you. That being BKB so you ignore the effect, Linken's so the Cyclone spell is absorbed if the protection is active, or the Echo Shell active of Lotus Orb so the enemy puts themselves up in the air with you and therefore cannot chain their own stun ability on you.
Much appreciated! The algorithm blessed us last week so we've had a tidal wave of new subscribers pouring in. We appreciate you coming along for the ride. Hope you learn a few new things with us.
That's a rough game for sure, lol. Yeah Wind Waker is super versatile. It's definitely an item that when a player with an in-depth knowledge of the game gets hold of one, they can nearly always find a way to make it have impact in the game.
Great question! When you have Wind Waker its always correct to cyclone your ally (unless they're affected by the active effect of Nullifier) as if other enemies are around the Duel they can finish your ally off to grant LC the Duel damage despite her being up in the Cyclone. If it's just the two of them though and you know for a fact no other enemies can be nearby: I'd always put LC up in the air to condition her to build a BKB and pop it every time she duels. Just because you have the utility to save an ally, you have to keep in mind when it's safe to keep psychologically bullying the enemy team :D
I was under the same impression too but have just tested it and actually Troll cannot dispel a defensive cyclone because the hero is considered invulnerable. If his Axes pierced Invulnerability then they would be dispelled.
Hahaha all good! I had to go test it myself because I wasn't sure. Curse of mainly playing support is you don't get to experiment with all the interesting core tech. Glad you stopped by, made me go check as we had a commenter the other day ask about Troll too on our Nullifier video, so I've gone and given him a heads up too that while Troll can dispel a lot of effects, he can't dispel everything that Nullifier can :)
As highlighted in the spell description: Nullifier can target Invulnerable units. It's an exception to the rule in that regard. Similar to Shadow Demon Demonic Purge and Sven Storm Hammer with Scepter upgrade.
Correct! VS Swap is one of the few spells that can target spell immune units, different to Debuff Immune. While it doesn't technically dispel the target, it interrupts channelling abilities on the target which in this case is what the Cyclone is doing, so the cyclone comes to an end. Always a debate whether to include all the interactions and make videos insanely long, or leave a simplified version that covers the majority of mechanics in a much shorter video and iron out all the weird interactions with you all in the comments lol
It's not a huge amount of damage, but yes as the other commenter said it's about putting blink daggers on the 3s cooldown so you can follow up on the Cyclone
Although, if someone has a safety bubble (Tier 1 neutral). it has 100 shield and euls only has 50 landing damage. Meaning they wont take enough damage to the shield to break a blink dagger. Maybe they could increase the damage on the wind waker when cast on an enemy to something like 250 so you can counter shields if they become a big enough problem.
@@heroninja1125 Very true! Barrier effects do avoid having Blink Daggers put on cooldown. They also have damage applied to them after resistances so the damage to the shield would actually only be that 37.5 magic damage assuming a base magic resist of 25%. I'm sure if they become enough of an issue that they'll patch Blink Daggers again so they go on cooldown based on all damage not just damage to HP directly
@@beneaththeveil Although, if they did do a patch like that. It would kill heroes like templar assassin that have already been struggling due to changes such as QOP ulti rework. Since templar assassin often relies on getting blink dagger to synergize with her built in shield
Great question! Unfortunately enemies under BKB can not be cycloned. This is due to the spell working as a buff on your allies and a debuff on your enemies. Since BKB provides Debuff Immunity, enemies are immune to the condition while allies still have it applied since it's technically a buff for them. A confusing instance of the same spell behaving differently depending on which hero casts it
We've helped many players climb themselves out of Herald and into Guardian and Crusader. A lot of it is shifting your focus off of your teammates and on to yourself, making sure you find consistent impact even in games where you don't win. A realistic climbing win rate is 50.1-55% it can be a slow climb, but so long as you're focussed on yourself and your own improvement anyone can climb.
when's the best time to get it btw? normally I got wand -> arcane boots -> meka -> whatever and hope someone else buys urn should I get euls after arcane boots?
Generally, Eul's should be first item after completing boots if you're going to get it, yes. There are games where it can be good to stick to boots of speed only and rush for the Eul's, say if you're the only one who needs the mana then the Void Stone will give you what you need and your allies won't be worried if they're not also mana hungry like you are. Building towards Wind Waker is more nuanced and requires more awareness of enemy item progression. If there are key targets that you're putting in a Cyclone consistently and you have counterplay on them by upgrading to a Wind Waker should they get an item to stop an aggressive Cyclone: track their items throughout the game and if you see they're building towards BKB/Linken's then start building towards Wind Waker as well so your item timings are both within 10m max of each other. The smaller you can make their item powerspike window relevant the better :)
This must be your sign to come back? We have a whole video explaining how Universal heroes work. The numbers have been shifted a bit but the philosophy is the same :)
@@beneaththeveil i'm seriously thinking about it tbh, i don't play it seriosly since the w3 era, and i just played customs and those quick matches in dota 2, i like the game but it's so hard to get into as a casual
Almost. There's technically a few sources of spells that pierce invulnerability (Nullifier, Venge Swap, Shadow Demon Demonic Purge, Sven Storm Hammer with Aghs etc) so it's not completely unkillable. But in a lot of cases it can feel like that. Puck with Blink Dagger, Eul's and Phase Shift can feel a lot like that with the 7s cooldown on Blink. It's good fun, would recommend.
@@beneaththeveil I know there are many who already do this, but their content is not as well edited and arranged;) I follow a lot of content for dota 2 and I can say that yours has a huge potential. Respect+
I see euls in every game, which is why I’ve been building nullifier pretty much every game. Edit: you claim that buying a nullifier wastes a spot in inventory, but it also stops a ton of other things, it’s almost always a good buy.
It's okay. Late game items that give mediocre stats (Damage and helm stats are underwhelming) while ALSO requiring you to juggle yet another variable in fights: not to mention heroes that are much more reliant on specific items? Even though Nullifier exists and does work: Eul's is not only better stats but also is nearly half the gold: all the while being the thing you are forced to counter rather than a specific counter item.
Not quite. We're not claiming that buying a Nullifier wastes a spot, but it forces the enemy to occupy that item slot with Nullfier if they want to fully shut down the utility of a Wind Waker. This forcing of itemisation limits the versatility of their item build and could instead be an item that gives them damage while giving them some other desired effect like lowering HP regen and lifesteal through Skaadi or providing Critical Strikes like Daedalus. It forces the enemy to compromise their ideal build in order to deal with a single item you possess.
Unsure why you think Nullifier stats are underwhelming. It's in the top 5 highest raw damage increase for heroes regardless of attribute group and is tied fourth for highest armor gain in the game only behind Shiva's, AC and Helm of the Overlord. It's not the best pickup in every game but is situationally strong for sure.
@@beneaththeveil I guess what I meant is when nullifier is considered, the amount that the armor increase helps is quite a lot less significant due to the logarithmic scaling of armor, and straight plus damage is okay, but can be nearly worthless on gapclose spellcasters that might want the item: namely spirit heroes. No strength or HP, no attack speed, no mana pool: just armor when you likely won’t need that much and an admittedly high chunk of damage.
@@bluejay7058 That's a fair assessment, but brings up an interesting point of when it is considered. We're of the belief that a lot of players consider Nullifier too late into the picture (4th-6th item if at all) where your assessment of the passive benefits being generally underwhelming for that point of the game is entirely valid. Before that time and while the heroes who rely on dispellable effects to survive early-mid game threat are still fragile though: Nullifier opens a window for a lot of heavy burst heroes to convert on their natural kill threat before attribute gains of those more fragile heroes gives them the capacity to survive through it. Of course you're compromising on build order to get a quicker Nullifier, but DOTA is an inherent game of compromise. Food for thought for sure.
It's a strong item for sure! If it's a bad game for Nullifier outside of the context of dispelling this one effect it can be a good choice to go anyway.
@@beneaththeveil Yeah, it's a very situational item. If someone preemptively uses Nullifier on a target that has Eul's, the Eul's user can always use Eul's on a high-threat target.
what’s the purpose of this video? feels just like a brain fart of facts about euls with no real practical application lol. much better to just show highlights of pro players and explain why / when they choose to itemise for it, which I believe would be much more informational
The purpose of this video is to fully explain not only exactly how the Cyclone spell works, but present new players with all the different utility options accessing the Cyclone spell gives them. We're sorry this wasn't immediately apparent to you through the titling of the video, hope this explanation has helped clarify things for you. You're correct, we could just highlight a single application use of the Cyclone spell like Team Spirit's Collapse leveraging a fast Wind Waker to completely shut down Virtus Pro's Bane pick in the first round of PGL Wallachia that happened today, but how is that of any use to new players who don't see Bane picked in their own games? By only highlighting a couple of single use cases, new players will naturally assume those are the only situations they should be purchasing the item rather than realising they can use the Cyclone spell to help catch an enemy, make space for their team to retreat, cancel channelling effects, dispel themselves or an ally of debuffs, dispel their enemies of buffs or set up their own unreliable spells off the back of the immobilisation associated with Cyclone. Cyclone is without question the most versatile spell in the entire game. If we could focus on a few single use cases and cover every aspect of the item we would. In the case of the Cyclone spell: that's just simply not possible.
Gamers! A small correction to bring this video in line with the current patch (7.36b)
The movement speed you have when casting Cyclone on yourself through Wind Waker is now 300 movespeed instead of 360 - a slight nerf but still very valuable :)
I have lost the Uneducated Debuff
Delighted to hear!
@@beneaththeveilYou mean, enlightened to hear?
8:16 It's not the verticality that snaps the Dream Coil. It's because Cyclone effect tosses the hero model around, as seen in 0:58. When you're on the edge of Coil, Cyclone pushes you slightly away from the max distance while invulnerable. The verticality is disproved by Wind Ranger Arcana. Her new Eul animation is stationary where she strikes a pose, her model doesn't get tossed around. So she doesn't snap the coil's X and Y axes.
This is correct, you can test it in Demo by using Tiny throw at the very edge of Dreamcoil and does not interact the same way. Eul's can break it on the edge due to the way it moves your actual unit in the air while invulnerable.
Based on research, i've seen this debate going back to when WR arcana was released (wasn't playing during that window so don't have the arcana to test myself) but in every test I've seen other players doing to prove what they claim they actually move the non-arcana hero further away from the centre of the Dream Coil before using Eul's. Not helpful testing lol.
You are correct, and you can also see this at 10:37 when LC is tracking the cycloned target. AFAIK it moves your hero in a small diamond pattern so this will always work if you're the correct distance away from Dream Coil regardless of where you're facing.
Tiny's Toss doesn't move the hitbox of the hero, only the hero model and its associated block box (the thing that stops creeps spawning in camps and enables body blocking). It's why Tiny can run underneath a tossed unit but also attack the unit that is theoretically 1,000 units in the air despite being a melee hero. And why Mirana can hit a unit at the top of Tiny's toss with an arrow. Their hitbox doesn't move upwards but their hero model and block box does.
What only Valve can really tell us is whether the units hit box also moves upwards as part of Cyclone and whether Dream Coil is tied to a heroes hitbox or block box. It seems generally believed that hitboxes don't move on the Z-Axis from what we've found, which gives credence to the belief that it's only the hitbox being jostled around on the X-Y axis that enables Coil to break during the Invulnerability. We've yet to find substantial proof on the matter, but it's an interesting mystery nonetheless.
@@beneaththeveili believe cyclone truly moves the hero into the air, as while applying nullifier on a cycloned hero you have to click on the actual hero model thats spinning around in the air. also the reason why tests move the hero away from cyclone is to put the hero at the very edge of dream coil, as the breaking point is slightly further away than the radius seen on the ability.
If you play primal and use the cyclone you actually still do dmg while trample is active as it counts as movement. It is fun to kill someone with blademail as you don't take dmg.
I'd honestly never thought of this, mainly because I main support and when I rarely get to play mid or offlane I prefer summons heroes or high mobility heroes like Puck. I assume Trample only works like that with Wind Waker and not with just the Eul's Cyclone? That's a smart counterplay. Well done!
@@beneaththeveil i’m pretty sure normal cyclone still counts as movement, albeit very little. Your hero actually “wiggles” back and forth a bit in the air, that’s why you can safely break coil if you euls right at the very tip.
As someone who played way too much sandking and jakiro, honestly one of the best items in the game outside of blink and bkb.
Back when Dust could be dispelled Sand King Eul's was aids
Now I know why I love your content, I also enjoy zzADRiANzz's content and I see the resemblance. I'd love to watch more you have in store for us, bro.
same😂
Appreciate that! Adrian is much like us, we like to get into the bones of DOTA mechanics and truly understand just how they're designed. Full credit goes to him for popularising this style of educational content and bringing all the players who want a more in-depth understanding of the game together. We know all too well just how much detail there is in the game when looking into a single spell, item or game mechanic so always appreciate when he covers a mechanic as it means we don't have to do a video on it and can focus our efforts somewhere else.
Best channel for learning the items🔥🔥thank you bro
Glad you think so! Thank you
Loving your Videos. I am really a fan of how detailed your explanations are. I have been buying Nullifier against necro for a while but only learned whats going on because of you.
Glad you like them and are now learning the "why" behind the decisions you were already making
Randomly got recommended this. Just started dota 2 weeks ago. You got a new sub.
Glad to hear. Welcome to the best game in the world :)
We hope we can make this delightfully complex games easier for you to understand
6:09 to add, Brewmaster's Storm brewling too.
Yes! Storm Brewling is another source of the Cyclone spell too. We're slowly building up a backlog of videos to eventually be able to do a video covering how Primal Split actually works ;)
Below are a few uses I have for euls not mentioned. Some are highly hero specific, while others are more general. With Sand king, if you know the enemy is carrying dust as their detection, you can euls yourself to be safe in your sandstorm in otherwise perilous locations. This allows you to sandstorm with impunity if you know their items. It can also be used to prevent a save after initiating (burrowstrike sven, euls approaching SD). It can also be a setup for epicenter or to close distance for more right clicks on a fleeing target.
For death prophet, Euls is a great tool for turning not just with exorcism as you mentioned, but also with siphon. Popping two siphons then going into euls will heal significant hp while dealing significant damage if they are turning on you, especially against melee hero's. I stopped playing 4 years ago, but id imagine this ability is augmented greatly with windwaker. If they flee, you can stay ontop of them with your uncontrolled damage. If they threaten you more than you them, you can flee into your team forcing them to choose if following you is worth it. An excellent gambit tool as euls improved dramatically as windwaker. Having to play around this makes your opponents need to be able to know they can burst/control you to 0 or else have been baited which is a good deterrent for the hyper aggressive play that DP operates on with her ult while pushing. While that is more DP focused. The same "buy time to heal and punish aggression' is used for bloodstone users like Lesh too.
For SK and DP, the free pathing is more busted than you make it out to be. SK is elusive, and extremely so if you can play around ledges during team fights as the few seconds it would take to path around the ledge can get your blink, stun or sandstorm up which are all but a free escape. DP is less worried about escaping but having 1 more second to heal and do damage. With low cooldown spells, even if you can be tracked back down with little issue, an extra 1 or 2 seconds can win a fight.
Also it is just generally a good kiting tool
Some great tips there for sure. Valve eventually realised how busted being able to dispel dust was in the case of SK so they've now made dust undispellable and heroes hit by the true sight have it linger on them even after leaving the AoE. The tip of setting up a solo Epicenter with Cyclone is certainly sound, and akin to SF Requiem if you can get the timing down to prevent any heroes with a stun, hex or silence interrupting the windup time.
Extra time under Spirit Siphon is definitely another application! Demonstrating Exorcism felt more applicable to all skill ranges as a specific example but yes, the healing of Spirit Siphon during the 2.5s of invulnerability isn't to be disregarded either. Same as Leshrac and a hero introduced in the time since you stopped playing, Primal Beast who the movement tied to Wind Waker can be a great gambit tool to continue dealing damage through Invulnerability and discourage enemies from pursuing a fight they might in the moment be winning.
The free pathing was definitely undersold, but for the sake of video length we try not to belabour any one point too excessively. Cutting lines of sight with free pathing is always an incredibly strong ability to be able to leverage at every stage of the game.
Appreciate you stopping by and leaving a comment. Perhaps this is a sign from the universe/Gaben/TH-cam that you should come and get your toes wet in your old favourite game? You've clearly still got all the knowledge stowed away all these years later ;)
@@beneaththeveil Thank you for the critique. I hadn't realized the change with the dust.
I will not come back to the game. Addiction is one hell of a thing, and I can never play dota again for any reason because of it. Not having played for over 4 years, I still dream about relapsing almost monthly.
If I may suggest, heavens halberd would be a great shorter video. It is a simpler item with a lot of uses, but I could write a dissertation on why its dooms best item. Let me know if you would like me to drop the brain rot on it
Fair enough, I can respect the decision to not return in that case.
The disarm mechanic in general is definitely something we'll cover at some point for newer players. Lots of things on the list already. Appreciate the offer of help regardless and appreciate you stopping by
@@beneaththeveil Ill be around for it. You do good stuff. Keep it up
From 14:08 till the end one tiny cute black demon waited for that. In the end he cried. XD
The best way to use the scpter is when the support need ti disengage out of a fight
Most important when upgreated to wind waker you can jump of to a high ground giveing a time to tp
Earth spirit roll into euls into roll again 4s stun on the ground
Epic video my man
Glad you enjoyed! Nice to see an Earth Spirit enjoyer out there. The Rolling Boulder change made playing him so much less fun, need to add something to make Magnetise a bit more powerful to balance things out again or something
You can be targeted. You can nullifier someone who is in the cyclone regardless of who casted the cyclone
As per the spell description of Nullifier: it can target Invulnerable units. It is an exception to the rule in that regard.
I miss good old days while I can eurl my allies. I always go for this item as a support
It's good for sure! Then people start building to resist it and it's not so fun, but that's when Wind Waker comes into play :)
the necro ult counter play of wind waker is soo cool
Yeah it's pretty sick. Tilting as hell if you're the Necro, but very very cool if you're against him
Sven aghs is all I'm saying
i saw that recently and he dispells cyclon and even stuns the enemy lmao
Very true! Sources of spells that target invulnerable units are few and far between. But something to be aware of if looking to purchase Eul's or Wind Waker.
10:58 You can also use Oracle's Fate's Edict to nullify the scythe
True! The 100% magic resist will save from the Reaper's Scythe damage. We meant it's the only item that is a guaranteed save, but fair point!
Add shallow grave to that
Sds 1st Ods 2nd butchers 4th. No need to act smart here. We know what the content creator meant. GeeZ so many smart alecs around.
@@_AmorFati_ I'm just sharing my thoughts chill.
Hahaha don't worry about it man, everyone likes to be technically correct ;) We mainly made videos for new players but it seems with our growing popularity we've attracted actual gamers so we'll have to up the base knowledge level to meet them. It's all good :)
Great video! You got yourself a well-deserved like and sub.
Legend! Welcome aboard
Windwaker + pango roll has a very cool interaction!!
That ult is a mess lmao. Lots of weird things you can do during it!
Oracle can dispel defensive cyclones, either by preemptively using fortunes end on the target or by using the aoe to hit the target. I don’t know whether he can dispel offensive cyclones though
It's actually one of the few spells that can target invulnerable units as part of its base ability so yes, Oracle can both purge offensive and defensive uses of Cyclone so long as he isn't the one in the cyclone :) It's a pretty neat skill.
He does have to target the hero model if it's up in the air which can be a bit janky and then cancel the channel immediately, so it's debatable how impactful it can be but it's certainly a piece of tech to have in your back pocket if you're in a bind :)
Works great with Outworld Destroyer with arcane blink and shard and it gives him a lot of damage.
For sure! Increasing OD's intelligence score is always a good choice in order to max out the damage he does with his orb attacks
Channel is so underrated
Thank you!
Man we're getting out of crusader with this one.
Good luck on the climb!
Whenever I see enemy buying Wind walker I'll go nullifier which cost: 4375 only
Yes we released a video on Nullifier before we released this one. It's the best way to counterplay a Wind Waker for sure
I think you undersold this as a late game option for cores facing lots of cc
It definitely can be! But it falls flat on its face a bit against heroes itemising around Nullifier. Back in the day when Dust used to be dispellable, it was so annoying to play into an offlane Sand King going Blink + Wind Waker. Genuinely impossible to deal with.
13:04 actually 4. you forgot that nullify thingy
We think you might be misunderstanding what we're explaining here. You can not self cast Nullifier which means there is only 3 items that can prevent an enemy from setting up a Cyclone Stun combination on you. That being BKB so you ignore the effect, Linken's so the Cyclone spell is absorbed if the protection is active, or the Echo Shell active of Lotus Orb so the enemy puts themselves up in the air with you and therefore cannot chain their own stun ability on you.
subbed, great contents, deserves more subscribers
Much appreciated! The algorithm blessed us last week so we've had a tidal wave of new subscribers pouring in. We appreciate you coming along for the ride. Hope you learn a few new things with us.
One of the best item tbh
We'd definitely agree
i remember GG built 3or4 windwaker, and lost
one of my fave item as pos4 fo sho
That's a rough game for sure, lol. Yeah Wind Waker is super versatile. It's definitely an item that when a player with an in-depth knowledge of the game gets hold of one, they can nearly always find a way to make it have impact in the game.
seriously good video
Thank you!
Since there's a bit of damage, does that mean the enemy won't be able to blink out?
Correct! If they have a Blink Dagger it will be out on 3s cooldown
When LC duels an ally, is it better to Euls LC or your ally? I assume your ally to assume they don’t die and give LC duel damage?
Euls does not work on allies
Great question! When you have Wind Waker its always correct to cyclone your ally (unless they're affected by the active effect of Nullifier) as if other enemies are around the Duel they can finish your ally off to grant LC the Duel damage despite her being up in the Cyclone. If it's just the two of them though and you know for a fact no other enemies can be nearby: I'd always put LC up in the air to condition her to build a BKB and pop it every time she duels. Just because you have the utility to save an ally, you have to keep in mind when it's safe to keep psychologically bullying the enemy team :D
troll scepter disables ww and cyclone
I was under the same impression too but have just tested it and actually Troll cannot dispel a defensive cyclone because the hero is considered invulnerable. If his Axes pierced Invulnerability then they would be dispelled.
@@beneaththeveil actualy sorry - no it doesnt, just tested to double check. One of those things that you remember wrongly, apologies!
Hahaha all good! I had to go test it myself because I wasn't sure. Curse of mainly playing support is you don't get to experiment with all the interesting core tech. Glad you stopped by, made me go check as we had a commenter the other day ask about Troll too on our Nullifier video, so I've gone and given him a heads up too that while Troll can dispel a lot of effects, he can't dispel everything that Nullifier can :)
U actually can target euls with nullifier
As highlighted in the spell description: Nullifier can target Invulnerable units. It's an exception to the rule in that regard. Similar to Shadow Demon Demonic Purge and Sven Storm Hammer with Scepter upgrade.
Venge swap dispels cyclone from an enemy/ally who is cycloned
Correct! VS Swap is one of the few spells that can target spell immune units, different to Debuff Immune. While it doesn't technically dispel the target, it interrupts channelling abilities on the target which in this case is what the Cyclone is doing, so the cyclone comes to an end. Always a debate whether to include all the interactions and make videos insanely long, or leave a simplified version that covers the majority of mechanics in a much shorter video and iron out all the weird interactions with you all in the comments lol
@@beneaththeveil Also true! Great video btw I really enjoyed it - keep it up!
@@hotharvey2 glad to hear so!
Woah euls damages now I know
well, its not about dealing damage, but breaking blink dagger, so enemy cant blink-out right after eul's
It's not a huge amount of damage, but yes as the other commenter said it's about putting blink daggers on the 3s cooldown so you can follow up on the Cyclone
Although, if someone has a safety bubble (Tier 1 neutral). it has 100 shield and euls only has 50 landing damage. Meaning they wont take enough damage to the shield to break a blink dagger. Maybe they could increase the damage on the wind waker when cast on an enemy to something like 250 so you can counter shields if they become a big enough problem.
@@heroninja1125 Very true! Barrier effects do avoid having Blink Daggers put on cooldown. They also have damage applied to them after resistances so the damage to the shield would actually only be that 37.5 magic damage assuming a base magic resist of 25%. I'm sure if they become enough of an issue that they'll patch Blink Daggers again so they go on cooldown based on all damage not just damage to HP directly
@@beneaththeveil Although, if they did do a patch like that. It would kill heroes like templar assassin that have already been struggling due to changes such as QOP ulti rework.
Since templar assassin often relies on getting blink dagger to synergize with her built in shield
At first glance. I see This makes youtuber
Hahahahaha. It took me a minute to understand what this comment meant, but yes I can see how you misread the thumbnail
Wait, allies under bkb can still be cycloned and get the invulnerable? What about enemies under bkb?
Great question! Unfortunately enemies under BKB can not be cycloned. This is due to the spell working as a buff on your allies and a debuff on your enemies. Since BKB provides Debuff Immunity, enemies are immune to the condition while allies still have it applied since it's technically a buff for them. A confusing instance of the same spell behaving differently depending on which hero casts it
SAY THAT IN HERALD GAME YOULL BE AMAZE IT DOESNT MATTER
We've helped many players climb themselves out of Herald and into Guardian and Crusader. A lot of it is shifting your focus off of your teammates and on to yourself, making sure you find consistent impact even in games where you don't win. A realistic climbing win rate is 50.1-55% it can be a slow climb, but so long as you're focussed on yourself and your own improvement anyone can climb.
Gotta say I'm not a bad player but the worst thing most player in herald is they doesnt care to throne.
EDIT: HOW TO DEAL 4V6 OR 2V7 SITUATION ?
when's the best time to get it btw? normally I got wand -> arcane boots -> meka -> whatever and hope someone else buys urn
should I get euls after arcane boots?
Generally, Eul's should be first item after completing boots if you're going to get it, yes. There are games where it can be good to stick to boots of speed only and rush for the Eul's, say if you're the only one who needs the mana then the Void Stone will give you what you need and your allies won't be worried if they're not also mana hungry like you are.
Building towards Wind Waker is more nuanced and requires more awareness of enemy item progression. If there are key targets that you're putting in a Cyclone consistently and you have counterplay on them by upgrading to a Wind Waker should they get an item to stop an aggressive Cyclone: track their items throughout the game and if you see they're building towards BKB/Linken's then start building towards Wind Waker as well so your item timings are both within 10m max of each other. The smaller you can make their item powerspike window relevant the better :)
It gives 1% magic resist???
Yes! As part of the Intelligence gain from the Staff of Wizardry you gain an additional 1% base magic resistance :)
haven't played dota in like 10 years.. me: wtf is a universal hero?
This must be your sign to come back? We have a whole video explaining how Universal heroes work. The numbers have been shifted a bit but the philosophy is the same :)
@@beneaththeveil i'm seriously thinking about it tbh, i don't play it seriosly since the w3 era, and i just played customs and those quick matches in dota 2, i like the game but it's so hard to get into as a casual
@@francobuzzetti9424 nothing wrong with turbo and unranked games :)
another banger
Thank you!
buy this + blink dagger and you're unkillable
Almost. There's technically a few sources of spells that pierce invulnerability (Nullifier, Venge Swap, Shadow Demon Demonic Purge, Sven Storm Hammer with Aghs etc) so it's not completely unkillable. But in a lot of cases it can feel like that. Puck with Blink Dagger, Eul's and Phase Shift can feel a lot like that with the 7s cooldown on Blink. It's good fun, would recommend.
Wow, cool stuff
Thank you!
The imba item :)
Very strong!
Your videos are so good pls make guides for dota tips farming patch you will be the best🥂 its so nice Moremore++
There's lots of creators out there that do videos on this already but we'll look into some way we can find a unique spin on it for sure.
@@beneaththeveil I know there are many who already do this, but their content is not as well edited and arranged;) I follow a lot of content for dota 2 and I can say that yours has a huge potential. Respect+
@@rainbowpew appreciate it! Thank you
I see euls in every game, which is why I’ve been building nullifier pretty much every game.
Edit: you claim that buying a nullifier wastes a spot in inventory, but it also stops a ton of other things, it’s almost always a good buy.
It's okay. Late game items that give mediocre stats (Damage and helm stats are underwhelming) while ALSO requiring you to juggle yet another variable in fights: not to mention heroes that are much more reliant on specific items? Even though Nullifier exists and does work: Eul's is not only better stats but also is nearly half the gold: all the while being the thing you are forced to counter rather than a specific counter item.
Not quite. We're not claiming that buying a Nullifier wastes a spot, but it forces the enemy to occupy that item slot with Nullfier if they want to fully shut down the utility of a Wind Waker. This forcing of itemisation limits the versatility of their item build and could instead be an item that gives them damage while giving them some other desired effect like lowering HP regen and lifesteal through Skaadi or providing Critical Strikes like Daedalus. It forces the enemy to compromise their ideal build in order to deal with a single item you possess.
Unsure why you think Nullifier stats are underwhelming. It's in the top 5 highest raw damage increase for heroes regardless of attribute group and is tied fourth for highest armor gain in the game only behind Shiva's, AC and Helm of the Overlord. It's not the best pickup in every game but is situationally strong for sure.
@@beneaththeveil I guess what I meant is when nullifier is considered, the amount that the armor increase helps is quite a lot less significant due to the logarithmic scaling of armor, and straight plus damage is okay, but can be nearly worthless on gapclose spellcasters that might want the item: namely spirit heroes. No strength or HP, no attack speed, no mana pool: just armor when you likely won’t need that much and an admittedly high chunk of damage.
@@bluejay7058 That's a fair assessment, but brings up an interesting point of when it is considered. We're of the belief that a lot of players consider Nullifier too late into the picture (4th-6th item if at all) where your assessment of the passive benefits being generally underwhelming for that point of the game is entirely valid. Before that time and while the heroes who rely on dispellable effects to survive early-mid game threat are still fragile though: Nullifier opens a window for a lot of heavy burst heroes to convert on their natural kill threat before attribute gains of those more fragile heroes gives them the capacity to survive through it. Of course you're compromising on build order to get a quicker Nullifier, but DOTA is an inherent game of compromise. Food for thought for sure.
subscribed and like and a comment ^^
Thank you!
Laughs in Nullifier.
It's a strong item for sure! If it's a bad game for Nullifier outside of the context of dispelling this one effect it can be a good choice to go anyway.
@@beneaththeveil
Yeah, it's a very situational item. If someone preemptively uses Nullifier on a target that has Eul's, the Eul's user can always use Eul's on a high-threat target.
Z Adrian Z
He's one of the homies :) helping educate the dota community together
Yoooooooooo
what’s the purpose of this video? feels just like a brain fart of facts about euls with no real practical application lol. much better to just show highlights of pro players and explain why / when they choose to itemise for it, which I believe would be much more informational
The purpose of this video is to fully explain not only exactly how the Cyclone spell works, but present new players with all the different utility options accessing the Cyclone spell gives them. We're sorry this wasn't immediately apparent to you through the titling of the video, hope this explanation has helped clarify things for you.
You're correct, we could just highlight a single application use of the Cyclone spell like Team Spirit's Collapse leveraging a fast Wind Waker to completely shut down Virtus Pro's Bane pick in the first round of PGL Wallachia that happened today, but how is that of any use to new players who don't see Bane picked in their own games?
By only highlighting a couple of single use cases, new players will naturally assume those are the only situations they should be purchasing the item rather than realising they can use the Cyclone spell to help catch an enemy, make space for their team to retreat, cancel channelling effects, dispel themselves or an ally of debuffs, dispel their enemies of buffs or set up their own unreliable spells off the back of the immobilisation associated with Cyclone.
Cyclone is without question the most versatile spell in the entire game. If we could focus on a few single use cases and cover every aspect of the item we would. In the case of the Cyclone spell: that's just simply not possible.