How Spirit Vessel Actually Works
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ค. 2024
- What's going on gamers!
Carrying on with our item breakdowns; this time we're going over a vastly misunderstood and underutilised item in lower MMR: Urn of Shadows and Spirit Vessel.
Sit back, relax and enjoy as Phil takes you through how both items work, who they work well with, who they work against and what other items they pair up well with. Good luck and Happy Gaming!
As always, shout out to @zzadrianzz who popularised this style of DOTA 2 content.
You can find our full playlist of DOTA videos from various creators that explain how items and mechanics of DOTA actually work from creators like Adrian as well as @ZQuixotix @PainDota and @BalloonDota • How DOTA 2 Actually Works
00:00 - Intro
01:18 - Urn of Shadows Breakdown
02:34 - Spirit Vessel Breakdown
03:49 - Who Should Carry Spirit Vessel?
04:49 - Who To Buy Vessel Against?
05:34 - High Healing Heroes
06:52 - High Lifesteal Heroes
08:21 - High Spell Lifesteal Heroes
10:00 - Itemisation Order
10:54 - Use Charges for Fighting or Healing?
13:05 - Buffing Soul Release's Damage
14:34 - Stacking Healing Reduction
18:41 - Heroes Who Give Reductions As Part Of Their Skills - เกม
Some of my favorite uses for vessel and urn are on shadow demon casting it on a tank in a team fight early paired with his W. It spreads the damage out across their team if the tank retreats to his teammates and can deal massive amounts of damage to the entire enemy team. Urn and vessel are also very useful for Oracle. You can cast the healing on an Ally that you have used your false promise ultimate on and it will not be dispelled even if they are attacked because they don't take damage until the ultimate has ended. Also the healing is doubled. In the early game, this is often enough to save an ally allowing you to use your spells to kill the enemy.
Very true! Incredibly potent combination of spells with Soul Release and Disseminate/False Promise
Shhhh don't talk about this or people will catch on
nice. Combine vessal with maledict for an extremely nastu debuff
@volgtorbg self use on warlock with facet 1 for a little buff on golem.
Been struggling versus huskar. You just solved that, thank you!
This is an incredibly useful video and I think itd be great if you made more videos like this for other items; it'd really help with learning the depth of DOTA2 more. Thanks for annotations, too!
That's our intent! You're welcome for subtitles too
I think Oracle deserves a special mention, as urn/spirit vessel is AMAZING with his Ult, as it cannot be interrupted, and a good Oracle should be in every single fight, as he shines when with the rest of his team.
Very true! We didn't want to focus on who it was good with as that would've probably doubled the length of the video and it was Kore important to cover who it's good to buy against and how it works ☺️
If you take WL first facet you can put a vessel charge on yourself then ult for even more golem damage
Very excellent, comprehensive video. I appreciate the time and effort you took to put some numbers and calculations down. It helps me understand the abstract concepts. Would love more videos like this, and am looking forward to the spell Amp video! You've gained another subscriber today 😁
Glad you enjoyed it! Thank you so much for joining us :)
For High Lifesteal heroes Vessel counters, you ought to include Chaos Knight who is still terrorizing pubs when played well. He does have his ult to dispel it and a frequent Manta purchaser now thanks to facet 1. Great video as always, dude. 👍
Appreciate it! Our lists of each archetype of hero were not intended to be comprehensive but rather indicative so players could conceptualise the group of heroes. We'd totally agree that against CK it can help. Especially since toggling Armlet counts as healing so Vessel reduces the burst of HP heroes receive from toggling.
Great video, learned a lot, just subscribed, love these kind of content.
Welcome aboard! Glad you enjoy ☺️
You're my goat. The quality is unmatched
Thank you! Very kind
this percentage DMG can be heavy Punch for beefy tanks. right? in dota2 we have no other item that can help you to deal percentage DMG toward enemies.
It certainly helps cut through tanks, yes. As far as we know, it's the only item that currently deals percentage based damage. All other abilities are tied to certain heroes
@@beneaththeveil I was thinking briefly we have another item for dealing with tanks! 90 % of heroes become tanky cause of their passive ability , so a silver edge gives a short window of time to slay them.
Somewhat ☺️ we're working on a video going over Break next. Keep an eye out
@@beneaththeveil 🤩🤩🤩
great job with all the explanation
Thanks!
I learned so much, thank you!! 🙂
Glad it was helpful!
quality here, gj man !
Thank you
Thanks for the captions! Instant subscribe I love you kiwis!
Welcome aboard and you're welcome for the closed captions :)
really dope video
Glad you liked it
Nice video, can I suggest you make video about amour and hp. When to increase one of them. Maybe about damage, speed attack and reduce armor, when we should focus make one of them.
Those are things we'll start to look at for sure once we've gone over more general mechanics and status effects ☺️
For the longest time now my support build has almost always gone wand > arcane boots > urn > forcestaff. Then adapt from there. Force and urn are never bad items.
Good value for sure!
Well you mostly have to decide between eul/force/glimmer, Solar/Blink/Drums are also a valid choice for certain heroes for certain cases. Out of those three items I think force staff to be generally the weakest, Eul is generally much better because there is so many things in the game to dispel both offensively and defensively. I think the problem with Force Staff is it's short cast range, on certain heroes who gain extra cast range Force staff can actually overshadow Euls in terms of it's utility, Rubick being the prime example.
@@Maleficarum999 lol, I'm an Oracle and Rubick main. But yeah, euls dispel is underrated.
Great breakdown! Now i just have to convince my team to get a skadi or shivas instead of their second daedelus!
Always the hardest part. Good luck out there soldier
spell amp video is very needed
it's on the list :)
Parasma also reduces enemy magic resistance. Great video and very informative
Good catch! It indeed does and helps to amplify the damage of vessel. Thank you for the kind words :)
11:20 when you calculate DPS's real damage, you should factor in health regen as well. Most heroes start with raw 3-5 hp regen, so in 8s they heal 24-40 hp overtime.
The point of showing the raw math was to show why the ethos of using charges changes when upgrading from Urn to Vessel. Adding in regen complicates the math when the result ends up being relatively similar and still proves the point. But I can understand why for accuracy you might want regen as part of the calculation ☺️
Miss when it used to require a Wind Lace & gave 20 movespeed...
Movespeed is such a good buff
I didn't know spirit vessel affects morphling's morph! ...granted that I rarely encounter any morphlings in my games, but thats beside the point :v
Thanks for the tips!
You're welcome!
Can you give me some tips on how to prevent the skills/items description from showing when hover by the mouse? Tnx in advance
We can't find a setting that would disable this. Best thing to do is have hotkeys bound to the item slots and use those keybinds instead :)
Gr8 job
thank you!
Doom's Doom also cancels any heal and regen.
Also worth mentioning that the only ways to save an ally under heal/regen reduction/cancellation are Setting Health (Terrorblade's Sunder and Weaver's Time Lapse) to change ally's HP directly, Min Health (Dazzle's Grave and Troll's Battle Trance) to prevent dying and Hide (OD's Astral, SD's Disruption) to block damage ticks and win some time.
Good catch on Doom. It does so many things I always forget all the details of it
There is also Abby's shield and Solar Crest for saving dying heros
@@orionstokesweiss2344 while the barrier effects help, the point OP is making is that those effects negate damage completely rather than absorb it so the heroes HP pool doesn't have to. If a barrier effect absorbs more damage than it can handle it passes the rest of the damage on to the hero killing them in the process. Grave and Battle Trance don't work that way
Worth noting though that Aphotic Shield does dispel so it's good against Spirit Vessel
@@beneaththeveil He listed " the only ways to save an ally under heal/regen reduction/cancellation" so I assumed it pertinent to add in other options which can also save heros under said effects....I did consider dispels but I don't know if all heal disables happen to be dispelable, and frankly there are more dispels in the game than I find reasonable to list. At a minimum lotus orb is a common support purchase and more applicable than Weaver ultimate
@@orionstokesweiss2344 I can appreciate where you're coming from but I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the original point where OP was referring to hard saves and the two health manipulation spells that outright ignore the mechanics of healing reduction. Yes, barrier effects can for sure be situationally strong against certain effects in isolation, but they don't save in the same absolute and all-encompassing fashion that the effects OP initially mentioned do.
I'm not trying to cause any arguments here, but I'm happy to discuss the mechanics further should you be genuinely interested in having an educational discussion on the matter. First though, I need to sleep. I hope you have a wonderful Friday ☺️
Actually spell amplification would be quite interesting. Around half a year ago, when veil was still targeted AoE, i found a lot of success with spell amp/debuff magic resistance builds of Duo Beast and Willow. While i wasn't completely sure on all details, how buffs debuffs aligned and most likely made suboptimal purchase order decisions. But it was still very enjoyable, from ganking isolated targets and burst of magic damage potential.
Can definitely add it to the list for future topics ☺️
so about your excel data sheet... are you going to add post 25 bracer/null/wraith? Those numbers are EXTREMELY useful when going for cost effective items on supports
As they're doubled, there's no need to. Just multiply all values by 2 :)
If it's post 25 minutes, you should already have all of these items online if you were going to get them and should focus instead on larger items
Bounty Hunter main here just saying urn/vessel is THE go-to item if nobody else has one and I'm not sure what the team needs yet as a support
It's a reliable investment for a roamer like Bounty indeed ☺️
Ty for spanish subtitles, amazing video as always 🎉
You're welcome 😊
Very thorough explanation. Nice work.
(Yes, this is mostly just for the algorithm.)
Doing god's work. Thank you
I think Vessel also work against heroes who use Armlet or anyone who can increase hp from skills. My question is would Vessel still work if the enemy/ally is under banishment(like OD's Banishment or Euls) or untargertable(like Willow's 2nd skill)?
Vessel does reduce the amount of healing done when activating armlet, yes. Damage ticks of Urn/Vessel will not go through since the unit is invulnerable to all damage except for Sanity's Eclipse during the duration, however an ally who is healing while under the protection of Astral Imprisonment will continue to heal. An enemy trying to heal will have their healing cancelled since Imprisonment deals damage. As we discussed in our video on Eul's Scepter and Wind Waker: a hero under the effect of Cyclone is invulnerable for the duration while also being muted, silenced and disarmed. If a hero is under the healing effect and is Cycloned by an ally, they will continue to heal since it is a buff. However if Cycloned by an enemy they dispel the buff so you will not heal. Similarly if you debuff an enemy and they euls themselves they will dispel the debuff however if you debuff them and then cyclone them yourself they will continue to receive damage.
Dark Willow is untargetable but not immune during Shadow Realm, so if she is buffed or debuffed before activating the spell those effects will persist for the duration. If she is healing and is hit by an AoE effect that damages her, she will lose the healing though. She can't be directly targeted by effects during Shadow Realm but can still receive damage. Hope this helped :)
Spirit vessel is item!
It is!
I am not sure if this still works but back when stacking was additive you could reach negative regen amp. When an enemy had say 100 health regen qnd had 120% regen reduction, the negative 20% of their healing would still apply and 20% of their regen (in this case 20 hp per sec) would be dealt as damage.
It mostly mattered for ice blast, but it was great bs alc and huskar as it would use their own high regen as a weapon, and once you got to values like 100-200+ its was pretty significant damage
I couldn't find when this was changed but it's multiplicative now so it's not possible to reduce more than 100% since any calculation of reductions after the Ice Blast reduction end up being a net addition of zero.
In the process of researching for this video we discovered that since Magic Resist stacking works the same way it's impossible for heroes outside of Silencer to reach permanent magic immunity. If Silencer gains something like 275 intelligence then the base 25.5% magic resistance he has is complimented by the magic resist increases through his intelligence. It took like 10 minutes and killing about 300 heroes in a demo lobby for us to achieve it so while it's feasibly impossible in any realistic game the tech is there if it goes astronomically long.
Pit lord is kind of like an exception for urn. His passive already give heavy att dmg reduction, which kinda force you to use magic on him. While he is a prime hero for Eternal Shroud, Lotus and Guardian Greaves.
He likes to stay front line with all those items and a Blademail for his team while spell lifestealing of his Q.
Definitely agree. He's a tricky hero to deal with. Kind of like a Bristleback in that sometimes the best strategy is just to simply kill his team around him and then deal to him last rather than trying to take him head on with the back up of his team. If he takes his cleave facet you can break him to suppress the Atrophy Aura temporarily and then also disable his cleave so he's less potent during the time while your team is more powerful temporarily. Something we'll touch on during our video on break :)
sir you are a angel
Thank you!
spell amplification video would be helpful!
You got it!
is there a visual cue for being able to see whether morphling is high agility?
Not if he's high agility, no. If he's morphing agility then he emits a greenish hue as he morphs. If morph doesn't turn off agi shift then it persists
gotcha, thanks!
good content
Thank you!
Ok i might be insane, but i need someone to tell me
If an enemy applies vessel on you, i think you can get rid of that debuff by using your own vessel
You can not, no. In fact, the harming debuff from an enemy purges your heal from your own vessel since the healing is cancelled by taking damage
A coach once taught me this and i build it everytime theres a tanky hero and im supp. However none of my teammates ever think its good.
Don't worry soldier. We shall endeavour to slowly educate the masses. Good luck out there
I always assumed every tick does 4% current hp as dmg, or did i missunderstand.
Does every tick do the same dmg based on the hp on the cast or does it calculate the value for every tick ?
It calculates the damage per tick, but you can solve for the compounding 4% of 100%, 4% of 96%, 4% of 92% etc. which is how you end up with 27-odd% of HP at point of cast ☺️
Technically, that doesn't factor in if a hero burst heals during the duration either; but for the sake of demonstration it does the job in showing why it's better to use charges on enemies than use for a heal on allies. The math is so inconsistent based on each heroes innate base magic resist being different now as well since Intelligence manipulates base magic resist lol
Chances of a support buying an orb of corrosion lategame for 5% more healing reduction seems like.... not happening and not worth, but... I will consider it now more! Probably usually way better to work toward orchid, sheepstick, ethereal blade... or maybe even another urn/vessel if it's that bad. I'll have to calculate a little more and think deeper about corrosion on supports
Would totally agree that in general sacrificing 5% healing reduction in favour of more lockdown utility on supports is in the majority of cases the correct play. There's probably only a handful of circumstances if any where your team has adequate lockdown and you just need to shut down the enemy's sustain so they die quicker
Do you recommend it to phoenix mid?
It can work on Phoenix mid, however there's more value generally in quickly scaling through more powerful items like Veil into Shiva's Guard and getting a support to go vessel and play with you. Shiva's helps you farm while Vessel doesn't so it really hinders your game if you can't snowball off kills with it. In my mind, Shiva's is more reliable for core Phoenix.
manta removes everything
Manta will dispel Soul Release and Orb of Corrosion's 3 second debuff, however if hit again Orb of Corrosions debuffs will reapply. Eye of Skadi's debuff can not be purged and since Shiva's Guard's healing reduction is done in an AoE around the hero wielding the item it's not possible to dispel that effect
Oh no, spreading the word on how Vessel works is bad news for the Io spamming I do Jokes aside, great video as always Phil and the crew!
Appreciate it, brother ❤️
I play Huskar and this item is my worst enemy.
Urn is one of the most broken items, vessel is a must have in every game.
It's definitely very strong
please does anyone know how to turn off the range indicators
which range indicator exactly? there are multiple. if it's the permanent range indicator you can disable that by holding ALT and right clicking whatever range is being displayed (item, attack range etc.) and also go to dota labs and disable permanent range indicator
If it's only the range display while casting you can disable that via your interface sub menu of the options page
@@beneaththeveil im talking about the huge green rectangles that got implemented five months ago or smth, for pudge hook, mirana arrow, hookshot and all the rest... its extremely annoying and it just cant be turned off
@@ripntear3416 they're integrated into the range display indicators. If you play with quickcast on key down you'll never see any of them except for vector cast spells but I think for regular cast and quickcast on key up they're baked into the game at present.
There is a setting to disable range indicators while casting but it doesn't seem to be working at present. if all the range indicators annoy you'd I'd advise making the jump to quickcast on key down. if there are certain items you want key-up exceptions for you can make exceptions in the item hotkey menu
@@beneaththeveil thanks for answering, i just think its horrible that they are forcing us to play with quickcast blatantly like that.. i hope they will fix it one day
Isn't the formula 243.784 + 27.86% of HP at cast ? Anyway great content
our formula is before reductions, curious how you got to 243.784 + 27.86% the math is always funky because each tick is calculated individually. Actually, if a hero pops say a Magic Wand during the Soul Release duration then they'll take more damage on the later ticks than they otherwise would since they increased their HP during the duration as well as having the healing from wand itself reduced due to the soul release debuff
@@beneaththeveil yeah I did it before reduction as well. Asuming there is only spirit vessel applied on some HP (no magic resistance, status resist etc) only flat HP. The total damage it does is "Current HP at cast minus the current HP after 8 ticks" let's call current HP at cast C{0} and remaining HP after 8th tick C{8}.
The formula to calculate the remaining HP from one tick to another is the following :
C{N+1} = C{N} - (35 + 0.04 C{N})
In other words, HP at the end of the incoming tick C{N+1} is the current HP C{N} minus the 35 damages minus the 4% hp of the current HP C{N}.
We can simplify this formula : C{N+1} = 0.96*C{N} - 35
So for example :
First tick : C{1} = 0.96 * C{0} - 35
Second tick: C{2} = 0.96 * C{1} - 35
Third tick : C{3} = 0.96 * C{2} - 35
And so on. If you develop completely C{3} you get :
C{3} = 0.96 * [0.96 * (0.96 * C{0} - 35) - 35] - 35
This can be simplify as well : C{3} = (0.96^3)*C{0} - 0.96^2*35 - 0.96*35 - 35
We can se a patern here, for C{N} we can project :
C{N} = (0.96^N)*C{0} - 0.96^(N-1)*35 - 0.96^(N-2)*35 - ... - 0.96^1*35 - 0.96^0*35
The second part of this formula is a sequence that can be simplify as such :
a^0+a^1+...+a^(n+1)+a^n = (1-a^(n+1))/(1-a)
So we obtain :
C{N} = (0.96^N)*C{0} - 35 * [ (1 - 0.96^(n+1)) / 0.04 ]
So for C{8} we have : (0.96^8)*C{0} - 35 * ( (1 - 0.96^(7 + 1)) / 0.04)
But this is only how to calculate the remaning HP of the incoming last tick, we want the total damage done here, i.e. C{0} - C{8}
C{0} - C{8} = C{0} - (0.96^8)*C{0} - 35 * ( (1 - 0.96^(7 + 1)) / 0.04)
C{0} - C{8}= C{0} * (1 - 0.96^8) - 35 * ( (1 - 0.96^(7 + 1)) / 0.04)
C{0} - C{8} = C{0} * 0,2786104210161664 - 243.784118389
So it is a bit heavy, and I am big noob so maybe I have made some mistake. But this is how I got it.
Ah, I think I see where things are coming apart. The flat 35 damage is resolved first, before the 4% of HP is :)
Your math is better than mine to be fair. I consulted with another member of the team who was trained in the area because I wanted to verify the information I found on the wiki was correct but couldn't do the math so he helped me through it. Once we confirmed the 35 damage is dealt first then the math started working out as I was lead to believe it should.
It's near impossible to test accurately due to every hero having varying base magic resist ever since they made intelligence modify base magic resist as well, so the numbers are always going to get a bit weird. If someone uses a wand or something during the Soul Release debuff duration then they will not only heal less but also end up taking more damage overall due to increasing their HP. It's wild stuff.
It's really funny when enemy picks huskar and you have already picked Ancient Aparition. Like we have won so many games because I just had AA and the enemy had a healing heavy hero.
Love when the counters pick themselves for sure
HOW DOES BREAK ACTUALLY WORKS?
coming up next :)
Can you please do morphling. I’m a morph spammer but still certain heroes I morph I’m still confused. Like I want their aghs spell. Some hero I get it some hero I don’t, like they also need aghs then I get the spell. It’s strange. Maybe a bug in demo
Also might like to add I seems like I don’t replicate there talent points. For example weaver at level 25 gets three attack on sukuchi. When I morph weaver I don’t get it.
Morphling is super complex. Been experimenting with Morphling support since 9Class and Boxi have both been playing a bit and winning with it. In order to gain access to a heroes upgraded scepter or shard spell you need to have scepter or shard yourself. Obviously if their Scepter or Shard ability is tied to their ultimate you don't get it since you don't get their ultimate ability. Having tested with Earthshaker: you can have both effects while he has neither - so it may be an oversight on your part there.
Morphling himself used to not gain access to the innate abilities that a hero has when he morphs into them, but it seems with 7.36 they've altered this. It seems the Strong Illusion does as well, but they may get a weakened version like they do with mana break etc. Morphling's talents do not change when he morphs into someone however, which I believe is why you don't get the bonus geminate attack. The same thing happens with Earthshaker with the Fissure range talent. Morphling doesn't get it.
Any talents that manipulate raw stats or cooldowns do transfer over though since they alter the spell itself as soon as they're picked.
@@beneaththeveil yeah that’s what I thought. If their spells is tied to their ultimate you don’t get it but the strange thing is I played a game against slark. His ultimate provides heath regen 60/90/120. I morphed into slark and when I wasn’t around their heroes I gain 75 regen. I thought to myself that was weird because that high amount of regen is tied to his ult.
@@beneaththeveil also would like to add. Yes morphling flow facet is so strong and fun. Been experiment it myself. Played against lifestealer and a axe. Unlimited rage and taunt with Octarine. So fun!
@@Themagician22419 the regen is tied to his innate now, not his ultimate ☺️ ult just amplifies it I believe. In bed now so I can't check
make a spell amp video pls
will add it to the list :)
I doubt agility to strength change is classified as healing, is this confirmed or just an assumption?
It might seem implausible but it is. A hero under the effect of Ice Blast or Doom (100% healing reduction) can Armlet or Treads toggle themselves to death since each time they switch off and on in the case of armlet or off and then back to strength in the case of treads they are losing and then essentially instantly healing HP. Try it yourself in demo mode and see :)
I always use urn agaisnt heroes who rely on blinking away it's such a toxic move 😂😂
It's very strong for sure
6,66 thousand subrsribers
Earth spirit enjoyers autobuy
The 10 talent for Spell Amp makes it even better for free
Pairs great with his ult too
Not me buying it cause it has the word spirit just like earth spirit and the red from soul release complements his eyes
Beneath The Veil drop another banger again. hope the herald of dota and the boosted account and account buyer subscribe to this channel Asap. cant handle most of the stupidity of them anymore. its half year of 2024 already!
hi i'd like to volunteer for creating the subtitle for my own language
What language?
@@beneaththeveil indonesian !
Please consider not translating items and heroes in russian subtitles, because it makes it harder to understand, since we call them by the english names ourselves. Thanks for the video, it is very helpful!
Thank you for letting us know. The subtitles are an automated translation based on our English subtitles. We'll look into how to create exceptions in the translation system but unsure if we can change them without understanding the language
Please add ukrainian subtitles. Thank you in advance for your hard work.
Added for you! Will continue to add them going forward :)
or just pick AA >:DD (iz a joke)
We did say towards the end that you can play AA! We forgot Doom also disables healing too
Ferst
Congratulations 🎉
30 mins and 120 views bro fell off. Waiting for a Sunnyv2 Video :)
💀