Let me start off by saying that I am industry professional (Chartered Surveyor) who deals with renewables and am in the process of looking at which heat pump to install in my own home. I am a big fan of heat pump, solar PV & battery storage technology. However, I recently contacted Octopus (who I am also a fan of - their tariffs, at least) for a quote on a heat pump installation. Whilst the price was decent (I can get cheaper), I was concerned by the design specification. To get the MCS certification needed for the BUS scheme grant, the system has to be designed to a flow temperature of no more than 50 degrees C. But, and its a big but, a heat pump that has to run at 50 degrees will not be anywhere near as efficient as a system running at a cooler temperature, at least sub-45 degrees, ideally cooler. Why? The COP (coefficient of performance) drops from more than 430% at 45 degrees, to about 385% at 50 degrees. Why is that important? Because with electricity being just over 4x more expensive than gas, a heat pump system with a COP of less than 400% will cost the user MORE than a gas boiler. I did highlight this to the Octopus rep and she said that they 'couldn't' design to a lower flow temperature. Again why? Basically, to get the system to output the needed heat at a lower flow temperature you need bigger heat emitters (radiators) and Octopus don't want to upgrade any more of your system than they have to, understandably. But should the facts not be outlined to people who aren't as clued up as some of us, so they can make their own decision about long term costs? The issue I have is that interviews like this - where the Octopus rep clearly states that you will get a COP of over 400% - is simply not true with the way Octopus design the system. Yes, in warmer months you will get that level of performance, but in winter, when you really need it, people will be paying more to run the heat pump than a gas boiler. That will lead to a wave of more bad press about a really cool and worthwhile technology that can be what we want it to be IF the system is designed correctly! Octopus - please change your approach, despite seemingly good intentions you are misleading people. Everything Electric Show - please ensure you use your channel to educate people in an unbiased way with all the facts.
Very important observations, thanks. I ws thinking about installing a heat pump with R290 and running it at nearer to 70 C to avoid needing to upgrade my radiators, so I guess that would be a lot less efficient.
Hmm ... a heat pump might be cheaper these days ... but, big but ... an installer might well suggest (!) that to get the full benefits the house needs to be fitted with bigger rads, 22mm pipe throughout to shift the heat and more powerful circulating pump. It's the consequent labour costs that are downplayed. Then the installer might suggest the homeowner really should fit much more insulation and a heat exchanger in the vents perhaps. Sadly we don't hear too much about improving the insulation before the job. Even with a decent grant the cost will still be quite dear. Anyway full marks to the Octopus lady expert ... an accomplished salesperson, very, very smooth spiel and almost believable.
Just buy an air to air split system for dog's sake. You're only pumping up to room temperature then, 18 to 22 degrees depending on your tolerance for wearing a jumper indoors. When it's 15 outside, and you just need to take the chill off, you're looking at COPs of 25 or so in practice. (About 100 in theory, but you never get to the theoretical limit)
Good write up! 👍 This is what i have been saying for both the all electric show and for the fully charged show. Content should be unbiased, verified and educational, instead of being stuck in an echo chamber and just accept and repeat what they are told. This is not the first time they just push out content that is not only incorrect or unverified or misleading but actually negative to people in general. Misleading and misinformation is the age we live in.
As an octopus customer, I really like what they’re doing, but my only criticism of this new heat pump is it looks like a recycling bin at a theme park LOL
"what more could you possibly want ?" A spec sheet ! Sound levels & Cop /Scop at these high temperatures. That said it good to see , & regarding looks ... Don't mind Normal Look or this ..
"all in one place in one app" isn't much of a benefit because it's always an attempt at vendor lock in. We need journalists to start asking about open data formats. Still I love these videos, thanks for making them.
Octopus are better than most energy suppliers in that they give easy access access to smart meter data etc via an HTTP API. Totally agree on open formats/protocols though; it is really bad that the UK doesn't legally require OpenTherm support like some other European countries do.
@@rogerphelps9939 you’re not going to “lose the heat pump”. They aren’t only available for octopus customers… it’s not lock in in that regard. OTOH a local API (MQTT for preference, but other options are available) really ought to be mandatory.
Was about to say the same thing… I don’t think a single question was answered especially when considering the audience is already knowledgeable on the subject.
Strangely devoid of facts. What will be the flow temperature for a 'high temperature' system? What is the noise output? Another vid, please, with less cosy PR, and more information. I thank you.
When are we going to get grants for air to air?! Wet systems are ok but if you're going max efficiency why would you take heat from air to put into water to put back to air?! Air to air means you get get rid of radiators and have more freedom to arrange your room, means you get cooling in summer as climate warms right on the days when solar isnt a problem... Crazy that we're only supporting a2w in the uk
1. Doesn't do hot water 2. Why would the government want to encourage higher energy usage in summer? I've got some air to air units but I don't really like the nature of the heat compared to radiators or UFH.
@@seanduffy2214 1. Neither does a heat pump without a cylinder. Get a cylinder with a heat pump built in, and a solar diverter. 2. If paired with solar - which could be a precondition of the grant - then there won't be extra grid draw on the days you want cooling, because those are the days with the sun. And a solar diverter to soak up any excess and put in your water cylinder. The other reason the govt might want to provide for air to air is to keep people alive in the increased heating events we are going to see. On your point re heating comfort, that's interesting, I've heard some people don't get on with them due to the different nature of the heating. Might be just what you're used to or might be certain types of draughty houses maybe. if there were grants to encourage the sort of market innovation we've seen for a2w heat pumps, maybe we'd start getting enough data to be sure.
@@seanduffy2214 What higher energy usage in Summer? Ours uses solar electricity on the few days that justify its use for cooling. HPAC is definitely the way to go. They heat the rooms virtually instantaneously and are far cheaper to run than any type of radiator. Combined with a small hot water heat pump, HPACs are the perfect solution.
@@jezlawrence720 I only state the reasons why government won't give grants on them. If you say you need to add solar to the pot to overcome all of that then you've got a whole level of complexity you are introducing and would require multiple suppliers. We are a way off needing a2a to cool homes. But I don't think they'd go for grants on those anyway. Nor is it a good use of government money for a few days a year it's needed. I like our a2a system but I wouldn't have it as primary heating. We have a well insulated draft free house but I find you get big temperature differences in the same room and harder to maintain a stable temperature. It's good for the office so I don't need the heating on elsewhere and such low running cost you can't see it on the smart meter. If I had endless money I'd go for UFH everywhere, it's a lovely stable temperature.
@@gsum1000 By the nature of using it in the summer vs. not having it you are consuming more energy. The grants are there to encourage less energy use. Not everyone will have solar, and when we run our AC it tends to be to keep the place cool at night anyway once the sun has gone down.
I have got to say firstly we are satisfied and enthusiastic Octopus Customers having been on their tariffs for a number of years. We are currently on Intelligent Go and have always found that the company respond well to questions and are open with information. But… I didn’t feel comfortable with this video it was far too woolly, no technical information, no Scop figures, no proper explanation as to why the pumps are working at such high temperature ( and if that has an effect on efficiency) how does it compare efficiency wise with existing heat pumps, why is the design so different, what advantages are there for placing the fan in a semi upright bucket etc. The lack of probing by the interviewer didn’t help either, this was a promo video without any serious scrutiny of what the Octopus lady was saying. Very disappointing both interviewer and interviewee. Juries out with this one, we will be in the market for a heat pump in due course but will need a lot of reassurance and evidence before we go down the Cosy route of whatever size.
Agreed. Running heatpumps with high temperature output usually lowers the efficiency quite a bit. And in winter, the efficiency of heat pumps is also lower, so combined, running a heat pump at high temperature in winter isn't all that efficient. Better insulation is still king. And bigger radiators.
Lets hope the installer training is good, because looking at the skillbuilder/heatgeek videos it's clear that this is make or break for heat pump installs. I just hope the government understands that too; perhaps a percentage of available resource should go on training.
Indeed. An absolute key first step is to get a proper heat loss survey done on your house. Oversizing is a common problem which can lead to reduced efficiency in the running of the heat pump. We had one fiited and it’s working extremely well but I did my homework extensively.
@@crm114. oversizing is prevalent in the heating industry. ALL gas boiler installations have oversized boilers fitted....because it is a get out of jaul card due to lack of (if at all) correct home heat loss calculations.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This (promotional?) video should be pulled immediately. I got a quote from Octopus after seeing this. Over £5000. I spoke to them and they said £500 is unrealistic.
@@lumbarsupportapparently they look at the EPC of the home and quote based on that. However, according to the quote the price only includes the heat pump, water cylinder and necessary pipework so I don't really understand why the price isn't £500 after the grant. 🤷🏼♂️ I think FC should remove this video altogether or at least put it on their other paid promotions channel. TBH, I watch less and less FC.
£500 will be for houses that are a) small, b) well insulated, c). got the correct pipework in place already, and d). have convenient places to put everything
Great to see Octopus working on their own solutions, but the details were sorely lacking and felt like they were skirting around anything that might have made it seem less than ideal. Also found it slightly odd that they're testing it in 70s and 90s homes when the vast majority of UK housing stock is pre 1940s, and its those that nobody seems to be willing to test on, probably for a good reason.
Is there much building reg difference between a shed someone built in their back garden and houses built before the 1990's? Insulation wise...I think not.
They did say that those two housing types covered more than 50% of the housing stock in the UK... and the older stock would be more likely to need upgrades, whereas they're probably trying to work out how to minimise changes needed for 'newer' properties, to help keep costs down.
I am also a proud Octopus customer and would love to install a heat pump. But I think the average £500 installation cost quoted for a well insulated house might be a little astray? We live in a relatively new, highly insulated, detached house with underfloor heating throughout the ground floor, and radiators on first floor. We are rated A for EPC with a score of 96. Our heating is currently provided by an efficient, four year old gas boiler and hot water tank. So we are extremely suited for conversion, as no change to radiators or associated pipework would be needed. My quote for conversion from Octopus was £3,880. That means the total cost of installation, including government grant, is actually £11,380. Sadly, whilst I would love to convert to a heat pump, even a price of £3,880 to me is just not cost effective as it would take quite a few years to recoup the outlay. And there cannot be a vast number homes in the country more suited? And there must be a question mark over whether the scale of government grant is affecting installation costs. It would be very interesting to see some analysis of quoted costs which might show where most of the installation cost is being spent?
Please consider the environment, especially the environment that our grandchildren will have to live in when making your decisions. Decisions made on very short term costs can be disastrously wrong.
It’s a well established fact that government incentives tend to drive up prices. As for the Octopus Quotes. I’d suggest getting a quote from Viesmann, they’re a far better heat pump than anything Octopus do, in my experience they’re keenly priced too. Viesmann aren’t well known in the UK yet but are market leader in Germany & Austria
That is shocking and disappointing. My house isn’t as so well suited. It would be interesting to see the breakdown of the quote to see where all the expenses is going. I hope you get some more quotes and receive a much better price.
Imogen misunderstood the point that they're specifically not talking about (as she said) "warm when they need to be warm" but instead as Effie said "heating the space when it is cheapest" which is often at 180 degrees to when you might actually want the heating. Eg loading up the temperature of the house overnight on cheap electricity, instead of leaving the house to cool overnight (which is usually much more comfortable for sleeping). There is an obvious high-demand period from 4-7pm when electricity prices spike, and so you'd do well to avoid using a heat pump then, still relatively expensive from 7-9pm. It will be interesting to see how this develops with an energy supplier controlling the heat pump; and whether you truly do end up with comfort when chasing low energy costs.
If an installation happens to incorporate a [large] buffer tank then it makes a ton of sense to use cheap nighttime electricity to heat it up at night. It certainly is NOT conducive to human comfort to heat up sleeping quarters while humans are sleeping there. However -- with magic of tekMology (and zone thermostats) -- we can leave some rooms cool (say -- bedrooms) while cranking up the heat at all other spaces to make them nice and cozy for when the humans wake up and are ready to start their day. This video was quite terrible at providing any sort of detail about anything, really (other than gender biased software development management practices). But I suspect engineers at Octopus probaly have a very firm grasp on managing cost, temperatures, and comfort at various areas of the house and water storage tank. There is plenty of cost to be shifted around 24 hours. And that's even before any solar panel installations (and free energy as well as usage time shifting they offer when combined with technologies like storage buffer tanks, AC, heating , and battery storage ; all of these can be forms of energy storage if used strategically; while maximizing human comfort in the process 🙂)
@@michaelchomiczewski7937 Part of the issue is that the optimal strategies are as yet not settled, and our energy mix is in a transitional state, so investment in these systems now may still result in folk having a sub-optimal system in times to come. If you follow the works of the likes of Heatgeek, they would generally advise against the use of buffers etc where you are trying to design a system for optimal running efficiency - as opposed to optimal cost effectiveness perhaps over a 24 hour period with the benefit of time of use tariffs. Yet some manufacturers (and big box heatpump installer orgs) are requiring / banging in buffers. Anything that is reliant on time of use and aligned to current time of use plans to be cost effective may become sub-optimal as the energy mix shifts; as solar grows as a % of generation, the traditional decrease in demand overnight may be matched by a decrease in cheap energy availability; hence it is conceivable we may see costs rise overnight if night coverage is being provided by grid scale batteries, not fall. So systems with buffers that are inherently less efficient in general (though might have been more cost effective under some time of use scheme) may cease to be as cost effective to run. IMHO those who have reasonably efficient systems already (whatever the fuel source) would be best served by waiting it out a little.
I must admit my praise of Octopus is wearing a bit thin after my heat pump survey first appointment they didn't turn up and then when they decided I couldn't have one they lost my £500 deposit
@@t1n4444 400% isn't overly optimistic - but it's also the target they have to heat for the heatpump to be more cost-effective than a boiler, at current gas/electricity prices... and the quote I got from Octopus included e.g. the installation of a new water tank, replacement of some radiators, and so on.
Doesn't the chances of snow or stuff gathering on the fan in this design more? I know the fan might be running but still though? Normal design seems easier for maintenance of fans
I agree I love the design but it is design over practicality not just snow but really heavy rain or hail can get into that farm. Much easier than most designs?
Could it be a safety measure? By blowing more upwards it can then be located closer to a footpath where it unlike a regular heat pump wouldn’t cause a lower temperature and increase risk of ice and a slip hazard.
@@stratosphericozone2645my heatpump sits on my roof. Some 10 meters above the nearest foot path 🤷 I think people need to start thinking a little outside the box about things like amounting placements. Have they designed a "feature" (upwards facing fan) to defend against duft installation locations (near footpaths) that can be 100% easily avoided by mounting on roof or sides of buildings (both opinions have been standard for mini splits for decades ; all over Asian -- and a handful of other corners of the planet...)
I’m an Octopus customer and a big fan. However when I enquired about the Cosy 6 the issues were firstly that you need to have a massive hot water tank fitted (I think 1m x 1m x 1.8m which won’t fit in the location of my existing hot water tank or boiler and will be too large for loft installation as well. The Cosy 6 is apparently only suitable for a 3 bed semi and a larger version hasn’t been launched yet. I was quoted £5000 even allowing for the government grant and nearly all the existing Octopus installs are for regular heat pumps so far not the Cosy 6. So I’m a little disappointed but hopeful that the product will be further developed, refined, reduced in cost and proven whilst the government grant is still available.
You can get a slimline tank from octopus as that's what I am getting, as for the manufacturers details and you can get all the tank specs you need from octopus.
@@davedevonlad7402 I know there’s a slimline one but it’s not that slim and is 2m tall, so still not that easy an install. Octopus told me they’ve actually only fitted a handful of actual Cosy 6 heat pumps for beta testers and it’s the new tech in those that interest me. Not a lot has been said about them publicly since the launch last September and their representative talking to Imogen was guarded and only really confirmed that they are intent on training a load of new installers. So early days for me still!
@@Retiredrovingroger What was needed to be done and how big is your property as my 3 bed town house is only £550 for a ASHP "dakin" a new 180l tank and two new radiators. £4300 sounds a lot to me for a standard fit.
To me it looks like an oversized compost bin. Then again - my heat pump sits on the roof of the house (alongside 6.7 kW worth of solar panels) and even though I like the traditional rectangular shape better - frankly it hardly matters what the thing looks like because I never see it. Still -- for folks who (out of habit?) chose to mount their heatpumps on the ground I guess it will come down to aesthetic preference?
If you have a house like ours that is two thirds solid brick, also has double glazing and loft insulation you won’t be able to install a heat pump, Octopus did a survey on our house and advised that we should not install a heat pump because they don’t do one big enough, the house is a four bedroom, we don’t use two of the bedrooms and only heat two downstairs rooms but apparently the heat pump needs to heat all rooms to be efficient. Looks like we are stuck with gas for the foreseeable future.
That's complete codswallop. Put in one or two split air to air units, one in each room you want to heat. Just needs a hole in the wall, an electrical connection run outside and a bracket screwed to the wall. Vastly more efficient too because you're only pumping the heat up a few degrees not up 35 or more into a tank. You should get a good size one (7kW cooling, 8kW heating) installed for 1500 quid (or they're ripping you off).
So we’ve spent two decades pulling out old boilers and immersion tanks in favour of efficient condensing combi boilers. Now we’re being told pull out the gas boiler for a heat pump, oh but you’ll need that tank back again.
Ya going backwards who wants one of them big lumps of metal stuck outside ya house ,then puta tank back in for hot water then prob got to change your pipe work and rads ,combi every day of the week
Are there any heat-pumps that use air-to-air rather than air-to-water (Americans call this a 'mini-split')? I'd like to be able to cool as well as heat.
This isn't an AC unit pumping heat outside (although the tech is basically the same). These heat pumps are only for heating water inside (either hot water or radiators), you don't need radiators in summer, but as above point out, people still need their hot water, so when running, it will still push out colder air outside, as it's extracting the heat from the outside air, to heat up the water, in the water tank inside the house, so you'd still get a cold breeze outside, even in summer.
Two comments: If it is summer in the UK, this means you are cooling the residence. This means you would not have a comfy fan to blow in your garden, as it would be exhausting hot air. This angled upward fan opening would seem to allow more precipitation to get inside the 'bits n bobs' versus the side exhausting models.
@@koitorob if someone says to you 'at an angle' do you think 0 or 90 degrees? If you do, you're weird. I mean, the post I was replying to literally was questioning the that said "Strange angle to have the fan instead of vertical".
@@toyotaprius79 Would rather stab my own eyes out with my own frozen excrement than give nationalisation even a sniff of a chance. You think the fucking government can innovate like Octopus and others are? Especially a Labour one?! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
They are pretty good + seem to be pushing the envelope. My only problem with them was that until recently their pre-sales "attitude" was discouraging, like, we don't want your biz and we don't want to know anything about you, please go away and stay with your current supplier. They have very recently improved, however.
Neither the presenter nor the octopus representative seemed familiar with the second law of thermodynamics, which dictates that the higher the output temperature ( for a given source temp) the lower a heat pumps efficiency.
I'm sure they are well aware. However most UK housing stock is poorly insulated, so high temp (and thus slightly less efficient) ASHPs offer a potentially easier swap for an existing gas boiler. Ideally, we'd massively overhaul all UK housing insulation and airtightness and then install lower temp, more efficient ASHPs, but in the meanwhile ... Also, and I'm no ASHP expert, maybe their ASHP using R290 can provide higher temps at higher COPs?
@@EugeneLambert no. Air to air pumps from outside to room temperature. Air to boiler pumps from outside to boiler temperature. Even a "low temperature" boiler is always hotter than room temperature.
If people understood that simple, and to me, obvious, fact then people would *laugh at them* when they tried to sell such a ridiculous thing. Just put in a split system that's 1/10 the cost and much more efficient. This air to boiler is a con job. It barely works but costs thousands and can milk subsidies.
The actual cop is the hot side temperature in Kelvin divided by the difference between the hot and cold sides. Real machines are about 40% efficient. So to pump from outside at 15 to inside at 18 runs around 38 cop. To pump from 15 to 45 (a low temperature boiler) gets you a cop of about 4.
It has an upwards angled fan. That's not very sensible if you live in an area that could get snowfall and power cuts at the same time, or if there's a lot of snow while it's on setback at night. Does it have some way to automatically clear the snow if this happens? Do we have to go out and pour warm water in it?
Pity they don't have an 1870's to 1900's terrace for testing. I am always put off when somebody says that they are "turbocharging" their offering. It just makes me think that it's all vacuous claims. Must be the tory government association ...
I have warm air heating. Currently gas heats water that passes through a heat exchanger and a fan blows air across and around the house. Octopus have said their system isn't compatible.
As a SW developer I find "mostly female lead firmware team" a very weird thing to try to score "social justice" points on. Women in managerial positions have been a normal thing for a long time and it's not like they had mostly female firmware team... Don't get me wrong, I am for the freedom of choice of occupation, equal pay for the same work regardless of sex, race, religion age etc. and for fair pay for the value that the work creates (e.g. education and healthcare jobs often struggle with this). The fact that vast majority of engineers are male is not because engineering is hostile to women, but because most women are more interested in doing other things and it's the very same reason why you don't see many male nurses... I've admired Octopus Energy for quite some time now for what they're doing and been envious that we have nothing even remotely like it here in the Eastern half of Central Europe, but this is a small red flag for many people now... Why does almost every company (and political party) that works to protect the environment and fight the climate change also have to preach the "social justice" BS?
Why oh why indeed. This is a technical solution attempt to a climate change issue, not a platform for woke promotion. I would be more interetsed if my 80 year old sister who lives alone in a bungalow could afford to install and run a system copmpared to her combi gas boiler, what's that got to do with a female firmware team ???
This is an uninformative commercial. I had hoped to watch an infomercial, but got an empty box. So, what about propane makes it a better refrigerant? It never gets cold in the UK, is that the only reason it works? Will it work on the rare days when the UK gets cold? Why? How noisy is it? What's the graph of COP Vs outdoor temp look like, and how is it better than their average competition? I like double beef double cheese burgers, thank you, please.
Biggest concern I have over heat pump is where to put it (on our 1930s semi) also where to put any hot water tank. I'd also be very cautious about buying a heating system that's locked in to my energy supplier's systems especially via an app. What happens when I want to switch suppliers? What happens if I lose my phone or internet connection? A physical control panel is essential.
Not sure about the sloping angle - it looks like it would encourage rain to get in. Would like to see a Heat Geek review of this heat pump, and high temperature concept.
We are an Octopus customer we signed up for a survey and after an extensive survey they turned us down apparently because there was me space for the hot water cylinder although we already have a mains pressure cylinder and space in the cupboard where the old boiler used to be as the newer oil boiler is now outside so all pipes etc are already installed. Not sure the surveyor really knew what they were doing. So we have gone elsewhere for our heat pump.
I myself fitted an air to air Mitsi elec heat pump in 2000, to keep the top floor warm. When we moved in there were no wet system fitted. Just a gas fire down stairs and through the wall gas heater. That was first to go when we moved in 1997. That unit looks over kill for my place. I use electric to heat water and have fitted a far infra-red under floor heating Matt in the main living room. Good bye gas fire and gas hob this year. Looking to have the gas meter removed soon to stop the monthly standing charge. I have solar panels but need a good battery storage next
Small poit - there are a lot of people who are on oil not gas boilers. Octopus would not fit an ASHP at our cottage despite a decent heat loss survey - it was the lack of willingness to install the hot water tank in our garage that saw the project fail and the government grant being taken away from us !! So for me Octopus need to be more flexible on the installs also look for a ASHP with built in hot water - similar to my outside oil boiler
Just get an air to air installed for a grand that most of the time would be 10 times more efficient than an air to water because it's only pumping the heat up a few degrees, not 35 or more.
In the Netherlands, it is the other way around. We had insulation for the floor for around €2.000 and get €130 back from the Government. A fully electric heat pump for our house is around €11.000, we get €2.700 subsidized and have to pay €8.300. Thanks but no thanks. The Dutch government could learn a thing or two from the UK.
Our heat pump is currently killing us, and the main issue is that the consumers are left on their own after installation to find out the best way to run it.
Would love a heat pump but i tried setting my boiler to 55c for heating and whilst it felt OK in autumn it soon got cold enough to not really work. The house is as well insulated as it practicably can be. And i love the low space footprint of my gas boiler. And i definitely dont want more radiators. I hope they can find a way to make high temperature as in like 60 plus c. And also one that could do HW on demand. I think i might be waiting for a while...
Yeah - we have a solar system and get a certain amount of Kwh per month to use. We just replaced the Combi with a 210L water tank. Now the rads get hot and the bath works fine - job done
Well I just filled out the instant quote and it says I'm currently not eligible for a heat pump even though I'm in a well-insulated detached house, have sufficient space, etc. 🤷🏼♂️ Just changed option to I'm not renovating my home and now it says I'm eligible (surely they'd prefer to install in a house being renovated). Quote was just under £4769 after grant. Not sure why.
@ their literature says this 6kW heat pump is only suitable for an average size 3 bed house. Larger models coming later in the year. Interestingly, I imported a 24kW swimming pool heat pump direct from a factory in China and it cost me around £1k plus several hundred quid for shipping. There are huge markups on these things.
Get an air to air split 8 kW system with cooling as well installed for under 2 grand. Plus vastly more efficient because it's only pumping up to room temperature
@2:51 On a hot day, running AC inside the house, that fan will blast you with HOT air. You won't like the air coming off of that in any season. It's the opposite of what you're conditioning for in the home.
@@andrewcunningham1 Thanks. In other parts of the world heat pumps are two way devices that can heat and cool as they have a condensor/evaportator inside and exchange heat with the home's interior. I forgot Britain is saddled with boiler/radiator heating which means this can't provide home cooling.
@@karlInSanDiego Hi Karl. Actually all UK heat pumps are reversible...they have to be to defrost the system in winter. But generally we don't use them to cool in the summer...yet.Some are experimenting with a bit of gentle cooling that just avoids the dew point.
I've long wondered why more heat pumps weren't paint black for that little bit of solar boost from absorbing the sunshine better. Better still perhaps combine one with a Trombe wall type arrangement.
I've never heard of using propane refrigerant except for 3 way fridges in campervans, how long will it last. I've had a high temperature refrigerant before CO2 in a Sanden hot water heat pump, heated water twice as quick as other types, awesome unit.
They were for me (well, quoted 1k, prior to the gov. increasing the grant), excluding 2x costs: Increasing my loft insulation in order to qualify for the gov. grant, and prepping the area (currently a bramble-patch) where the pump would be placed.
@@logicalChimp lucky you! I've just been quoted £7500, and that's after the grant...true cost was £15k. What a joke, I'll be keeping my gas boiler for now.
Hard selling more like with misinformation. It's standard price when you go to their website calculator. My semi came out at £7000. You can get better air source heat pumps with recognised professionals in their field. Heat Geek ones are specifically trained for the job. I'd hate to throw good money out to bad and at that price the return on investment is just not enough. My 4kwp solar panels are a much better investment and you can get them cheaper to supply and install.
Is there an option to replace hydronic heating boiler, and instant hot water boiler with one heat pump? Should this be two or one unit? We live in Australia and it seems our option are limited here… I’ve go no idea where to start.
Does this unit work with a single zone inside the house - or more than one zone? The fan seems smaller than "typical" heat pump. They mention radiators - are there compressors inside the house - or is this a heating system only?
Unfortunately at the moment Octopus are not installing their cosy 6. We’ve just had them install a heatpump for us and it was a Daikin heatpump, having said that it’s working really well.
The WWF has calculated that the value of your house rises if you install a heat pump, in the range 1.7-3%. Using a uk av. house price of £281k thats between £4.8-£8.4k…….
issues with siting pumps needs to be addressed. The huge numbers of Victorian terraces in the UK massively impacts this. Not to mention the cost of integrating into existing. Fine if you’re replacing your whole system, but once you add in moving the water tank, replacement radiators stc etc 5he cost is too high.
Those 'integration' costs were included in the quote I got from Octopus (inc. 4x replacement radiators, 1x additional radiator, new water tank, and some new plumbing to integrate everything to the existing plumbing). That said, I agree siting issues for terraced homes is an issue (my planning permission was refused because the outdoor unit would end up too close to the neighbour :/)
Doesn't matter how cheap the unit is, the fundamental problem is the high cost of electricity relative to gas. My electricity is a bit over 24p/kWh while gas is 5.5p/kWh. Even assuming a best-case CoP of 4 (more like 3 in the depths of winter), the heat pump is going to cost more to run. If electricity came down to something like 10p/kWh (like it used to be not that long ago) it would be a no-brainer.
OVO have a heat pump tariff that is 15p/kWh for the heat pump usage. Also, you need to adjust your gas rate as that is based on gas usage not heat output. With gas boilers in the UK achieving an average of 83% in the UK (yes badges say higher, but are rarely met), you are paying 6.6p/kWh per kWh of heat.
Air to air units get vastly higher cop because they're not pushing the heat up to 50 degrees, just up to room temperature. They're also a 10th of the cost
@@BenIsInSweden Even then, the benefits are marginal and it'll take a very long time to recoup the investment vs an existing boiler. I sat down and researched this for months, really wanted a heat pump but unlike solar panels the numbers just don't add up yet.
@@gasdive Air to air is an expensive non-starter in most homes unless you're building a new house or completely renovating from brick. You'll have to rip out the radiators and build in ducting. And the government unfortunately won't give you a penny. Would absolutely be the way to go for a new Passivhaus though, especially as part of the MVHR system.
@@ricequackers replacing an existing working boiler should really only be considered if wanting to take the grant and/or saving on CO2. There are numerous things with the gas and electricity prices currently that do put it on gas's favour due to outdated policies. But they will need to change if the government want to start seeing a rapid adoption of heat pumps. The issue is flipping a switch to update and correct it will leave many in fuel poverty, which won't go down well. So it's likely it's going to be done over a longer period of time.
@@Hyfly13 they can do cooling. Air to Air do it regardless. Air 2 water is a bit more complicated, usually needing an extra module, and either need some fan coils instead of radiators, or water to air handling unit. Either way, it increases the cost a lot more over just getting an Air to Air unit.
You don't need to insulate any more than any other heating system. They're cheaper to run. Assuming you don't buy this one which heats hot water to a high temperature, and you get an air to air one which only needs to pump up to room temperature, making it 3-10 times more efficient.
I wonder if the Cosy will come to Octopus Energy NZ? We have a gas ducted central heating system, but to switch out to electric costs tens of thousands of dollars and lots of disruption switching out the ducting because it's not suitable for the heat pumps currently sold here. Unfortunately absolutely no subsidies here in NZ, so I wonder what the full cost of the Cosy is?
I’m concerned about their size, I don’t think I could mount that at ground level. I just don’t have the space. Can they be mounted about 4-5 meters high Like an A/C unit ? As for me that’s the only place for it. Can the water heater be placed in the loft ?. As again, the only place I have for one.
Having watched this video, I’m of the opinion that the £500 refers to the installation cost of the heat pump but what is the purchase price of the actual unit?
Difficult to believe but propane has a very low global warming potential (GWP) of 0.02 which is surprising because it's a molecule with many modes of resonance, and would presumably break down into CO₂ and methane by UV radiation. Still, IPCC 6 report says it is very low, so I'll go with it. Heat pumps should be cheap - they are just bidirectional fridges, consisting of a motor, compressor, valve, some tubes and one or two fans, all of which are massively mass produced!
Fridges don't live outdoors. The exterior unit has to e.g. ensure that it doesn't ice itself up on the cold-side when temps are -20, that it doesn't overheat when temps are 35+ (it still needs to run to provide hot water, even if it's not needed for heating the house), and nor do fridges need to run the coolant lines from the compressor to a separate tank to 'store' the heat.... oh - and the space being managed in a fridge is rather smaller than the size of your house :p
@@logicalChimp Your points are understood but I'm still disappointed with the hardware pricing. Of course I am emphatically not surprised by the installation costs - it's difficult and there are many horror stories of incompetence.
It’s interesting that when it comes to EV’s and the energy infrastructure the grid won’t cope, but with everyone having heat pumps that will most likely all be turned on at the same time, there’s no mention of a problem.
At 2:55, presenter describes getting a blast of cold air while standing in the garden on a hot day. On a hot day, heat pumps work by pumping undesired heat out of the house. The outdoors fan is blasting heated air on a hot day and cooled air on cold days (pumping the unpleasantness outside). The boxy outdoors units have a larger radiator area to transfer the unpleasantness outdoors, and are thus more efficient.
I still Wonder why it seems to be necessary to put the heatpump outside of your house. Mine stands in the cellar, the air is floating trough two small windows. And it works for more than ten years now.
To the best of my knowledge, I've never been in a house with a cellar in the UK that's less than 100 years old. So while that would be fine, it's not a solution for most homes.
I'm with Octopus, I'm Octopus Go at the moment, with a 14.4Kwh PHEV car, as well as the GivEnergy All in One 13.5Kw home battery, I have the IBoost+ to heat my water tank & 4Kw solar panels & triple glazed thru-out. I asked for a quote from Octopus, within a day I one for £4500. No one visited to see what's best, where to place the pump or see if I needed any further additional insulation. I'd much rather see a person, with advice or even three quotes following the heat geeks information. Octopus still needs to work on the personal touch & not the hard sell, where we all seek compensation in ten years time?
Seems crazy having “Engineers” installing heat pumps, their time would be better spent in R&D, designing spacecraft, wind turbines or electric vehicles, why not train installers to install heat punps.
My house is 150 years old probably in the 10% and we've installed underfloor heating, but I can't get anyone to confirm that their system will not only give us hot water but can supply the underfloor too! Also, these things need to be 300mm off a wall! When will they be able to be located in the loft space?
It sounds like Octopus are only interested in the easy, standard houses, where the grant covers their cost. Have you discovered the Heat Geeks? They're the real experts in complex systems.
They will never be located in a loft space because they have to extract heat from air which has a rather low thermal capacity. That means that the heat exchanger must be located in the open where the air is constantly moving even in the calmest weather. The air in a loft will not be exchanged fast enough,. Regarding underfloor heating it is a brilliant match with a heat pump. This is because underfloor heating can operate at lower flow temperatures than most radiators. The lower the flow temperatture the higher the Coefficient of Performance or output heating power divided by electrical input power. That means lower bills.
@@rogerphelps9939 I run the systems at 65C but you do have to understand how they work. Same as a ship tanker, slow to get going and a long time to stop. I've a 20kwh home battery system, oversized to enable the gas boiler to go
At 65C a heat pump is a ridiculous proposition. The theoretical limit for a heat pump is the hot side temperature in Kelvin divided by the difference between the hot side and the cold side. You usually get about 40% of the theoretical limit. So if it's 15 outside, and you want to make it 18 inside, with a 65C boiler, that's 338K divided by 50, that's 6.76. times 40% that's 2.7. So you're looking at a COP of about 2.7. With an air to air, the hot side at 18C, that's 291. Divide it by the difference between inside and out, that's 97. The theoretical limit is 97. Multiply by 40% gives you the likely COP, 38. Now you could say that the cop gets worse for the air to air as the outside temperature falls, and that's true, but it's always going to be better than the air to water.
Installation costs are quite high still for a large house.. even with grant.. because of all the extra works required. Problem for a lot of UK houses is insulation and access to space for pump, pipes and tank, etc. We really need to bring back grants for improving home insulation, but can't see that happening. The 'sweet spot' is houses that are well insulated, have space for all the components, and have solar panels and battery storage so that the electricity required to run the system is as cheap as possible. Would love to install all of these renewable solutions, but not many households have got spare £thousands at the moment.
In a small 3 bed property, I don't really have room for a massive heat pump in my tiny garden, I would hope I'm not the only person that wants a heat pump, but only if it takes up less space, say like the space my gas boiler takes up in my kitchen?
Maybe already commented? I did not read the 691 comments. At around 3:00 : On a hot day you would want to cool the inside of the house. In the Garden the heat pump would blow hot air (the calories moved out from the house inside). It would not blow cold. Unless it is used not for A/C but heat the water as you do even when it is hot outside ;-)
It’d be fairer if they stated that their install costs that little after considering the BUS grant. Otherwise folks might think that Octopus have found the holy grail everyone has been looking for. Except, they haven’t.
Under what circumstances would you expect a nice cooling breeze coming from the heatpump fan outside in your garden? Have you ever stood in front of one in summer????
My cosy6 gets instalked 18th Nov. I have been waiting since my survey last March for installation. I used their online quotation tool and discovered a price differential from my original quote, so I contacted them about it. They agreed to honour my new updated quote as well as apply a £250 October discount promotion. My new price for full install is ....ZERO!....a result! It breaks down as ... Base price £ 8335.84 Gov grant -£7500 October promotional discount -£250 Radiator discount -£585.84 Total to pay £0.00 • the radiator discount is because I am upgrading one bedroom radiator myself (as I have a suitable one that was removed during recent home alterations).
Nice idea but a commercially integrated solution will always prioritise profitability of the provider over cost reduction for the consumer. What currently provides a clear customer benefit will ultimately transpire to be a captive system. Only divorcing energy service & energy product providers will ensure consumer interest.
Hi, I watched your video when you put it up and I was enthusiastic. In fact, I am in the process of getting a Heat Pump from Octopus (just waiting for a re-survey) and I have asked if I can have the Cosy 6 rather their current Daikin offering. However (& it's a big however), MCS has now tested the Cosy 6 and it didn't do very well. At 55° flow temperature, the SCOP is less than 3, which, as I'm sure you know, means that it would be more expensive to run compared to a dirty gas boiler. Even at a low flow temperature of 35°, the SCOP is still less than 4. It's very disappointing!
On another tack, if the way to get us to go green then make ASHP and solar a joint installation. As only a small proportion of our electricity comes from renewables (solar / wind) the rest comes from fossil fuels. So how is ASHP better for the environment? I'm still on the fence!
For the UK as a whole heat pumps might not be a good idea. Simple storage heaters can store energy and cost a hell of a lotbless to install. The main barrier is the charging mechanism for electrcity. I.e. it is cheaper just to build more wind turbines and use storage heaters to store the energy overnight
In the last 5 years in the UK it seems that the housing stock has become suitable for heat pumps even though there has not been a country wide scheme for improving insulation in housing. I don't think heat pump technology has improved to overcome poor quality insulation in housing. If I'm wrong please enlighten me. I'd love to have a heat pump.
I’m no expert on anything to do with heat pumps, but will rain falling down into the angled up fan cause any issues? Obviously they’ve taken that into account but I’m interested in why they chose to design it this way and why it works.
I'm all for a heat pump, been banging the drum with my family for over a year now thanks to Heat Geek and this channel. There may be a big problem incoming btw with smart metres, mines never worked because my flat has no mobile signal. All smart metres in the UK use 3G and that is being decommissioned by the gov/network providers soon. Won't that render all smart metres in the UK no longer smart when that happens? Maybe they should work by syncing to your phone/app instead. EDF are aware my smart metre doesn't work, a bloke comes out and all he can do it turn it off and on again and still no signal, he reports back to EDF and.. nothing. is it my job to chase them about this? nope.
If I understand the requirements correctly to replace our combi boiler we would need to also install a cylinder, upgrade insulation, pipes and radiators. So far from the £500 quoted. Much as i'd love to get one, I just can't see how given we have a 1930's solid brick building.
If you are truly serious about wanting to change to a heat pump and system, don't rely on a vague understanding. Do the research. As one has already said here, there is a sizeable grant available, and insulating a home is not costly - typically £600. I think it was Martin Lewis, just in January, who said that it would be cheaper for the government and the taxpayer to allow for UK homes to be insulated for free. Which would be a one-off cost. As opposed to backing up the high cost of bills with rebates. But, no they didn't do that. Because that would hit the oil/gas companies.
@@ramblerandy2397Who is insulating 9" brickwork houses for £600? Unless you live in a narrow terraced house I'm not sure you could do it DIY for £600 nevermind getting a company to do it.
A conventional heat pump seems so cumbersome, expensive to fit and unsuitable for so many smaller homes. When you compare to a combi gas boiler they just don’t seem to be the future of heating. The best form of heating I ever had was in my shop - a simple electric panel heater with thermostat and timer. So cheap to buy and fit and instant heat whenever I needed it. 100% efficient too apparently and was not expensive to run. Someone tell my why this form of heating is frowned upon.
You say it's not expensive to run, but it would be compared to gas central heating or a heat pump for the same level of comfort. A simple air to air heatpump would have cost about 1/4 to run. And gas when set up correctly would have been about 1/3rd.
Would love one of these but we have a fairly typical 90s detached (A rated EPC) and it seems it would involve re-install tank, replace all radiators and most problematic, rip out the microbore pipes downstairs.
Its High Temp so you shouldn't need more radiators or ripping out micro bore. That's the point. It generates temps around 60 degrees C like most boilers are set to.
Wrong. I have a mostly microbore system and it works fine with my heat pump. I had o replace the radiators which were a motly bunch of outmoded things anyway. In general the wall area did not increase much and the main differences were two panels instead of one and convectors (the corrugated metal) on the back.) I really do not know how this idea that heat pumps do not work with microbore came from. It's just not true.
I wonder if I could keep my combi to deal with domestic hot water and use a heat pump for the central heating. This is a new house, well insulated and I'd be OK with paying more to have lower emissions. It's sacrificing indoors space for a water tank that would stop me from going ahead.
The price has gone up a little then, it was “From £0” when it was announced last year. Not exactly news now, most other energy companies are doing £500 heat pumps (after the grant) - alright, “from £500” assuming no other work is required.
I love Octopus and am a customer but I find the £0-£500 quote hard to believe as my quote was over £10K so over £2.5K after the grant. I have a tiny house with only 5 Rads so no idea how 'lots' of people are getting lower quotes.
Let me start off by saying that I am industry professional (Chartered Surveyor) who deals with renewables and am in the process of looking at which heat pump to install in my own home. I am a big fan of heat pump, solar PV & battery storage technology.
However, I recently contacted Octopus (who I am also a fan of - their tariffs, at least) for a quote on a heat pump installation. Whilst the price was decent (I can get cheaper), I was concerned by the design specification.
To get the MCS certification needed for the BUS scheme grant, the system has to be designed to a flow temperature of no more than 50 degrees C. But, and its a big but, a heat pump that has to run at 50 degrees will not be anywhere near as efficient as a system running at a cooler temperature, at least sub-45 degrees, ideally cooler. Why? The COP (coefficient of performance) drops from more than 430% at 45 degrees, to about 385% at 50 degrees.
Why is that important? Because with electricity being just over 4x more expensive than gas, a heat pump system with a COP of less than 400% will cost the user MORE than a gas boiler.
I did highlight this to the Octopus rep and she said that they 'couldn't' design to a lower flow temperature. Again why? Basically, to get the system to output the needed heat at a lower flow temperature you need bigger heat emitters (radiators) and Octopus don't want to upgrade any more of your system than they have to, understandably. But should the facts not be outlined to people who aren't as clued up as some of us, so they can make their own decision about long term costs?
The issue I have is that interviews like this - where the Octopus rep clearly states that you will get a COP of over 400% - is simply not true with the way Octopus design the system. Yes, in warmer months you will get that level of performance, but in winter, when you really need it, people will be paying more to run the heat pump than a gas boiler. That will lead to a wave of more bad press about a really cool and worthwhile technology that can be what we want it to be IF the system is designed correctly!
Octopus - please change your approach, despite seemingly good intentions you are misleading people.
Everything Electric Show - please ensure you use your channel to educate people in an unbiased way with all the facts.
Very important observations, thanks. I ws thinking about installing a heat pump with R290 and running it at nearer to 70 C to avoid needing to upgrade my radiators, so I guess that would be a lot less efficient.
Hmm ... a heat pump might be cheaper these days ... but, big but ... an installer might well suggest (!) that to get the full benefits the house needs to be fitted with bigger rads, 22mm pipe throughout to shift the heat and more powerful circulating pump.
It's the consequent labour costs that are downplayed.
Then the installer might suggest the homeowner really should fit much more insulation and a heat exchanger in the vents perhaps.
Sadly we don't hear too much about improving the insulation before the job.
Even with a decent grant the cost will still be quite dear.
Anyway full marks to the Octopus lady expert ... an accomplished salesperson, very, very smooth spiel and almost believable.
400% isn't the cost crossover point with gas because gas isn't 100% efficient... It's closer to 370% with 90% efficient boiler
Just buy an air to air split system for dog's sake.
You're only pumping up to room temperature then, 18 to 22 degrees depending on your tolerance for wearing a jumper indoors. When it's 15 outside, and you just need to take the chill off, you're looking at COPs of 25 or so in practice. (About 100 in theory, but you never get to the theoretical limit)
Good write up! 👍
This is what i have been saying for both the all electric show and for the fully charged show.
Content should be unbiased, verified and educational, instead of being stuck in an echo chamber and just accept and repeat what they are told.
This is not the first time they just push out content that is not only incorrect or unverified or misleading but actually negative to people in general.
Misleading and misinformation is the age we live in.
As an octopus customer, I really like what they’re doing, but my only criticism of this new heat pump is it looks like a recycling bin at a theme park LOL
Cute then...!
I knew I recognised it somewhere! 😂
As opposed to the boring white tin box that have looked exactly the same for centuries with zero design flair!
i came here to write this :D
"what more could you possibly want ?" A spec sheet ! Sound levels & Cop /Scop at these high temperatures. That said it good to see , & regarding looks ... Don't mind Normal Look or this ..
ability to use it without their app would be nice too
@@Hdtjdjbszh Absolutely. A sceptic would say that it is a ploy by Octopus to have a captive customer base which is difficult to get out of.
At the end of the day these articles are paid ads, these things need independently tested to a spec that works for resistive, heat pumps and gas.
The only thing that counts is the cop eh, cop 2 when its cold wont be cheaper than other ways of heating.
@@robbiepmusicSCOP is what matters for overall cost.
"all in one place in one app" isn't much of a benefit because it's always an attempt at vendor lock in. We need journalists to start asking about open data formats. Still I love these videos, thanks for making them.
Octopus are better than most energy suppliers in that they give easy access access to smart meter data etc via an HTTP API. Totally agree on open formats/protocols though; it is really bad that the UK doesn't legally require OpenTherm support like some other European countries do.
Absolutely. Don't touch this witth a bargepole unless clear ways of getting out without losing the heat pump are provided.
@@rogerphelps9939 you’re not going to “lose the heat pump”. They aren’t only available for octopus customers… it’s not lock in in that regard.
OTOH a local API (MQTT for preference, but other options are available) really ought to be mandatory.
Did you watch the video?@@rogerphelps9939
And what data is the app collecting (and selling). The pump could be subsidised by the app
i feel like this 'article' didn't answer anything
Was about to say the same thing… I don’t think a single question was answered especially when considering the audience is already knowledgeable on the subject.
Strangely devoid of facts. What will be the flow temperature for a 'high temperature' system? What is the noise output? Another vid, please, with less cosy PR, and more information. I thank you.
Most folks don't know/care, as long as the hot water comes... Same as Boilers, who knows what their boiler flow rate is....!
female led... what do you expect ?
This clearly is a PR piece that is not meant to be INFORMATIVE 🙃
clearly a PR exercise. no concrete numbers...and R290 isn't new surely. don't the good Vaillants all run it?
When are we going to get grants for air to air?! Wet systems are ok but if you're going max efficiency why would you take heat from air to put into water to put back to air?! Air to air means you get get rid of radiators and have more freedom to arrange your room, means you get cooling in summer as climate warms right on the days when solar isnt a problem... Crazy that we're only supporting a2w in the uk
1. Doesn't do hot water
2. Why would the government want to encourage higher energy usage in summer?
I've got some air to air units but I don't really like the nature of the heat compared to radiators or UFH.
@@seanduffy2214 1. Neither does a heat pump without a cylinder. Get a cylinder with a heat pump built in, and a solar diverter.
2. If paired with solar - which could be a precondition of the grant - then there won't be extra grid draw on the days you want cooling, because those are the days with the sun. And a solar diverter to soak up any excess and put in your water cylinder. The other reason the govt might want to provide for air to air is to keep people alive in the increased heating events we are going to see.
On your point re heating comfort, that's interesting, I've heard some people don't get on with them due to the different nature of the heating. Might be just what you're used to or might be certain types of draughty houses maybe. if there were grants to encourage the sort of market innovation we've seen for a2w heat pumps, maybe we'd start getting enough data to be sure.
@@seanduffy2214 What higher energy usage in Summer? Ours uses solar electricity on the few days that justify its use for cooling. HPAC is definitely the way to go. They heat the rooms virtually instantaneously and are far cheaper to run than any type of radiator. Combined with a small hot water heat pump, HPACs are the perfect solution.
@@jezlawrence720 I only state the reasons why government won't give grants on them. If you say you need to add solar to the pot to overcome all of that then you've got a whole level of complexity you are introducing and would require multiple suppliers.
We are a way off needing a2a to cool homes. But I don't think they'd go for grants on those anyway. Nor is it a good use of government money for a few days a year it's needed.
I like our a2a system but I wouldn't have it as primary heating. We have a well insulated draft free house but I find you get big temperature differences in the same room and harder to maintain a stable temperature. It's good for the office so I don't need the heating on elsewhere and such low running cost you can't see it on the smart meter.
If I had endless money I'd go for UFH everywhere, it's a lovely stable temperature.
@@gsum1000 By the nature of using it in the summer vs. not having it you are consuming more energy. The grants are there to encourage less energy use. Not everyone will have solar, and when we run our AC it tends to be to keep the place cool at night anyway once the sun has gone down.
I have got to say firstly we are satisfied and enthusiastic Octopus Customers having been on their tariffs for a number of years. We are currently on Intelligent Go and have always found that the company respond well to questions and are open with information.
But… I didn’t feel comfortable with this video it was far too woolly, no technical information, no Scop figures, no proper explanation as to why the pumps are working at such high temperature ( and if that has an effect on efficiency) how does it compare efficiency wise with existing heat pumps, why is the design so different, what advantages are there for placing the fan in a semi upright bucket etc.
The lack of probing by the interviewer didn’t help either, this was a promo video without any serious scrutiny of what the Octopus lady was saying. Very disappointing both interviewer and interviewee.
Juries out with this one, we will be in the market for a heat pump in due course but will need a lot of reassurance and evidence before we go down the Cosy route of whatever size.
Agreed. Running heatpumps with high temperature output usually lowers the efficiency quite a bit. And in winter, the efficiency of heat pumps is also lower, so combined, running a heat pump at high temperature in winter isn't all that efficient. Better insulation is still king. And bigger radiators.
I prefer the traditional look of heat pumps. This looks like my kitchen bin and I’m concerned it would deteriorate out in the weather.
It's hideous.
Lets hope the installer training is good, because looking at the skillbuilder/heatgeek videos it's clear that this is make or break for heat pump installs.
I just hope the government understands that too; perhaps a percentage of available resource should go on training.
Indeed. An absolute key first step is to get a proper heat loss survey done on your house. Oversizing is a common problem which can lead to reduced efficiency in the running of the heat pump. We had one fiited and it’s working extremely well but I did my homework extensively.
So right, I'm surprised Octopus has not bought heat geek.
Can confirm, having had an Octopus survey literally this afternoon, the training isn’t up to scratch…
@@crm114. oversizing is prevalent in the heating industry. ALL gas boiler installations have oversized boilers fitted....because it is a get out of jaul card due to lack of (if at all) correct home heat loss calculations.
Make or break for heat pumps installs?!
What madness is this?
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This (promotional?) video should be pulled immediately. I got a quote from Octopus after seeing this. Over £5000. I spoke to them and they said £500 is unrealistic.
what exactly is the £5,000 paying for?
@@lumbarsupportapparently they look at the EPC of the home and quote based on that. However, according to the quote the price only includes the heat pump, water cylinder and necessary pipework so I don't really understand why the price isn't £500 after the grant. 🤷🏼♂️
I think FC should remove this video altogether or at least put it on their other paid promotions channel.
TBH, I watch less and less FC.
£500 will be for houses that are a) small, b) well insulated, c). got the correct pipework in place already, and d). have convenient places to put everything
@@decimal1815octopus themselves said £500 is unrealistic. Of course it's cheaper for smaller houses but it won't go as low as £500.
Similar story here, Octopus estimate over £4000 after the government grant
Great to see Octopus working on their own solutions, but the details were sorely lacking and felt like they were skirting around anything that might have made it seem less than ideal. Also found it slightly odd that they're testing it in 70s and 90s homes when the vast majority of UK housing stock is pre 1940s, and its those that nobody seems to be willing to test on, probably for a good reason.
Is there much building reg difference between a shed someone built in their back garden and houses built before the 1990's? Insulation wise...I think not.
They did say that those two housing types covered more than 50% of the housing stock in the UK... and the older stock would be more likely to need upgrades, whereas they're probably trying to work out how to minimise changes needed for 'newer' properties, to help keep costs down.
I am also a proud Octopus customer and would love to install a heat pump. But I think the average £500 installation cost quoted for a well insulated house might be a little astray?
We live in a relatively new, highly insulated, detached house with underfloor heating throughout the ground floor, and radiators on first floor. We are rated A for EPC with a score of 96. Our heating is currently provided by an efficient, four year old gas boiler and hot water tank. So we are extremely suited for conversion, as no change to radiators or associated pipework would be needed.
My quote for conversion from Octopus was £3,880. That means the total cost of installation, including government grant, is actually £11,380.
Sadly, whilst I would love to convert to a heat pump, even a price of £3,880 to me is just not cost effective as it would take quite a few years to recoup the outlay. And there cannot be a vast number homes in the country more suited?
And there must be a question mark over whether the scale of government grant is affecting installation costs. It would be very interesting to see some analysis of quoted costs which might show where most of the installation cost is being spent?
Please consider the environment, especially the environment that our grandchildren will have to live in when making your decisions. Decisions made on very short term costs can be disastrously wrong.
What kind of heat pump was it? That's not far off a ground source heat pump price here in the Netherlands.. air source are nowhere near that price.
Don’t be so tight and get on with it! 😂 likely your install has additional considerations to it like pipes, rads, location, elec supply etc etc
It’s a well established fact that government incentives tend to drive up prices.
As for the Octopus Quotes. I’d suggest getting a quote from Viesmann, they’re a far better heat pump than anything Octopus do, in my experience they’re keenly priced too.
Viesmann aren’t well known in the UK yet but are market leader in Germany & Austria
That is shocking and disappointing. My house isn’t as so well suited. It would be interesting to see the breakdown of the quote to see where all the expenses is going. I hope you get some more quotes and receive a much better price.
I love the way Octopus has turned it's back on the way things have always been done and provided the best tariffs to suit modern day technologies.
Where I live it snows... how does that fan handle a 20-30 cm snow coverage? Does it need an extra roof built over it?
Imogen misunderstood the point that they're specifically not talking about (as she said) "warm when they need to be warm" but instead as Effie said "heating the space when it is cheapest" which is often at 180 degrees to when you might actually want the heating. Eg loading up the temperature of the house overnight on cheap electricity, instead of leaving the house to cool overnight (which is usually much more comfortable for sleeping). There is an obvious high-demand period from 4-7pm when electricity prices spike, and so you'd do well to avoid using a heat pump then, still relatively expensive from 7-9pm. It will be interesting to see how this develops with an energy supplier controlling the heat pump; and whether you truly do end up with comfort when chasing low energy costs.
If an installation happens to incorporate a [large] buffer tank then it makes a ton of sense to use cheap nighttime electricity to heat it up at night. It certainly is NOT conducive to human comfort to heat up sleeping quarters while humans are sleeping there. However -- with magic of tekMology (and zone thermostats) -- we can leave some rooms cool (say -- bedrooms) while cranking up the heat at all other spaces to make them nice and cozy for when the humans wake up and are ready to start their day. This video was quite terrible at providing any sort of detail about anything, really (other than gender biased software development management practices). But I suspect engineers at Octopus probaly have a very firm grasp on managing cost, temperatures, and comfort at various areas of the house and water storage tank. There is plenty of cost to be shifted around 24 hours. And that's even before any solar panel installations (and free energy as well as usage time shifting they offer when combined with technologies like storage buffer tanks, AC, heating , and battery storage ; all of these can be forms of energy storage if used strategically; while maximizing human comfort in the process 🙂)
@@michaelchomiczewski7937 Part of the issue is that the optimal strategies are as yet not settled, and our energy mix is in a transitional state, so investment in these systems now may still result in folk having a sub-optimal system in times to come. If you follow the works of the likes of Heatgeek, they would generally advise against the use of buffers etc where you are trying to design a system for optimal running efficiency - as opposed to optimal cost effectiveness perhaps over a 24 hour period with the benefit of time of use tariffs. Yet some manufacturers (and big box heatpump installer orgs) are requiring / banging in buffers. Anything that is reliant on time of use and aligned to current time of use plans to be cost effective may become sub-optimal as the energy mix shifts; as solar grows as a % of generation, the traditional decrease in demand overnight may be matched by a decrease in cheap energy availability; hence it is conceivable we may see costs rise overnight if night coverage is being provided by grid scale batteries, not fall. So systems with buffers that are inherently less efficient in general (though might have been more cost effective under some time of use scheme) may cease to be as cost effective to run. IMHO those who have reasonably efficient systems already (whatever the fuel source) would be best served by waiting it out a little.
Why is the fan angled up to catch rain/snow/dust/bird crap?
All sounds great, every time we contact Octopus [customer over 3 years now] they're not installing in Scotland. Awesome, thanks Octopus
Too cold??
@@decimal1815 Heat pumps are common throughout Scandinavia countries so - no!
Think you dodged an ugly black plastic bullet there. Octopus cam out the highest of quotes I got. I don't believe it has any merit
I'm proud to be a customer of Octopus Energy, such an innovative and ambitious company which is pushing to make sustainability more affordable.
I was a customer but their customer service was non-existent. Went over to OVO energy and their customer service is excellent.
@@crackjoker-yb8jp really? The company that charged a friend for gas whilst insisting they didn’t have a meter?
I must admit my praise of Octopus is wearing a bit thin after my heat pump survey first appointment they didn't turn up and then when they decided I couldn't have one they lost my £500 deposit
the fact this heat pump is designed to work intergrally with their app means they're just trying to lock you in with them. This is anti consumer
@@Retiredrovingroger The deposit is fully refundable, chase them!
Body language suggested that the positives are over sugar coated?
This is an ad.
Heat pumps can be made to work with an efficiency >400%, that's all you really need to know.
@@crm114.
Surely the installation cost, amount of upheaval, payback time might be of interest.
400% ... seems a tad optimistic.
@@t1n4444 400% isn't overly optimistic - but it's also the target they have to heat for the heatpump to be more cost-effective than a boiler, at current gas/electricity prices... and the quote I got from Octopus included e.g. the installation of a new water tank, replacement of some radiators, and so on.
@@logicalChimp Can you post some details of your quote?
Doesn't the chances of snow or stuff gathering on the fan in this design more? I know the fan might be running but still though? Normal design seems easier for maintenance of fans
There must be a reason for it. Surely . Maybe to help with the defrost cycle or prevent defrost completely.
It doesn't really snow in the UK anymore but it looks like you maybe able to use it as a snow machine. Hurrah !!
I agree I love the design but it is design over practicality not just snow but really heavy rain or hail can get into that farm. Much easier than most designs?
Could it be a safety measure? By blowing more upwards it can then be located closer to a footpath where it unlike a regular heat pump wouldn’t cause a lower temperature and increase risk of ice and a slip hazard.
@@stratosphericozone2645my heatpump sits on my roof. Some 10 meters above the nearest foot path 🤷 I think people need to start thinking a little outside the box about things like amounting placements. Have they designed a "feature" (upwards facing fan) to defend against duft installation locations (near footpaths) that can be 100% easily avoided by mounting on roof or sides of buildings (both opinions have been standard for mini splits for decades ; all over Asian -- and a handful of other corners of the planet...)
I’m an Octopus customer and a big fan. However when I enquired about the Cosy 6 the issues were firstly that you need to have a massive hot water tank fitted (I think 1m x 1m x 1.8m which won’t fit in the location of my existing hot water tank or boiler and will be too large for loft installation as well. The Cosy 6 is apparently only suitable for a 3 bed semi and a larger version hasn’t been launched yet. I was quoted £5000 even allowing for the government grant and nearly all the existing Octopus installs are for regular heat pumps so far not the Cosy 6. So I’m a little disappointed but hopeful that the product will be further developed, refined, reduced in cost and proven whilst the government grant is still available.
You can get a slimline tank from octopus as that's what I am getting, as for the manufacturers details and you can get all the tank specs you need from octopus.
@@davedevonlad7402 I know there’s a slimline one but it’s not that slim and is 2m tall, so still not that easy an install. Octopus told me they’ve actually only fitted a handful of actual Cosy 6 heat pumps for beta testers and it’s the new tech in those that interest me. Not a lot has been said about them publicly since the launch last September and their representative talking to Imogen was guarded and only really confirmed that they are intent on training a load of new installers. So early days for me still!
Hmm ... does that install include the acrows to keep the ceilings where the architect decided they should be?
I was quoted £4300 pounds from Octopus before my survey, and then after a second survey, they decided it would not fit
@@Retiredrovingroger What was needed to be done and how big is your property as my 3 bed town house is only £550 for a ASHP "dakin" a new 180l tank and two new radiators.
£4300 sounds a lot to me for a standard fit.
looks like a big bin with a fan on it.
To me it looks like an oversized compost bin. Then again - my heat pump sits on the roof of the house (alongside 6.7 kW worth of solar panels) and even though I like the traditional rectangular shape better - frankly it hardly matters what the thing looks like because I never see it. Still -- for folks who (out of habit?) chose to mount their heatpumps on the ground I guess it will come down to aesthetic preference?
Does this mark the end the fabric first mantra?
If you have a house like ours that is two thirds solid brick, also has double glazing and loft insulation you won’t be able to install a heat pump, Octopus did a survey on our house and advised that we should not install a heat pump because they don’t do one big enough, the house is a four bedroom, we don’t use two of the bedrooms and only heat two downstairs rooms but apparently the heat pump needs to heat all rooms to be efficient. Looks like we are stuck with gas for the foreseeable future.
Heatgeek would say otherwise. We have similar set up no wall insulation and are looking at a system.
Have you considered infra red panels?
You obviously need to insulate the solid walls.
That's complete codswallop.
Put in one or two split air to air units, one in each room you want to heat.
Just needs a hole in the wall, an electrical connection run outside and a bracket screwed to the wall.
Vastly more efficient too because you're only pumping the heat up a few degrees not up 35 or more into a tank. You should get a good size one (7kW cooling, 8kW heating) installed for 1500 quid (or they're ripping you off).
@@gasdive £1500 per room?
R290 are in many Swedish heat pumps for 20 years plus. Nothing new there. Great to see alternative designs too.
So we’ve spent two decades pulling out old boilers and immersion tanks in favour of efficient condensing combi boilers. Now we’re being told pull out the gas boiler for a heat pump, oh but you’ll need that tank back again.
Ya going backwards who wants one of them big lumps of metal stuck outside ya house ,then puta tank back in for hot water then prob got to change your pipe work and rads ,combi every day of the week
Are there any heat-pumps that use air-to-air rather than air-to-water (Americans call this a 'mini-split')?
I'd like to be able to cool as well as heat.
They are already dirt cheap and old technology, so not much innovation is to be expected.....
In the UK, air to air systems don't qualify for the subsidy.
@@brianballard905 Interesting, cheers for that.
Air to air has more refrigerant. You don't want to be pumping propane around the place. Better its sealed outside within the heat pump
@@dirvine5341 I thought it was only about 250gram (if R290 is used) and should be no problem in rooms above 9sqm
Why would it be running and giving you cool air outside on a hot day?
Because you'd still want hot water?
I'm thinking she doesn't understand how a heat pump works.
Heaing water.
It extracts out the cool air when its running to create heat (opposite of fridge)
This isn't an AC unit pumping heat outside (although the tech is basically the same). These heat pumps are only for heating water inside (either hot water or radiators), you don't need radiators in summer, but as above point out, people still need their hot water, so when running, it will still push out colder air outside, as it's extracting the heat from the outside air, to heat up the water, in the water tank inside the house, so you'd still get a cold breeze outside, even in summer.
Be interested to see a breakdown of their £500 cost.
Maybe make up a well insulated house etc to see if you can get a quote.
Two comments:
If it is summer in the UK, this means you are cooling the residence. This means you would not have a comfy fan to blow in your garden, as it would be exhausting hot air.
This angled upward fan opening would seem to allow more precipitation to get inside the 'bits n bobs' versus the side exhausting models.
Thought I must be missing something as they seemed to completely ignore this point......not just me who questioned it then!
i doubt it has a cooling cycle. but you might be generating hot water.
No cooling cycle because it only makes hot water.
@@mralistair737where Air 2 Air has the advantage, as that’s just the new name for air conditioning which does heat as well as cool …
The unit would cool the air during a hot water cycle. There is no suggestion here that the unit is used for cooling the property...or water.
Strange angle to have the fan instead of vertical. Hope they've got some good bearings in them! 🧐
Millions of units in the USA have square units with a vertical fan. Our house in the USA had one like that in the 1980s.
@@peterjones6322 an angle is not vertical.
@@Etacovda63 What do you think 90 degrees is?
@@koitorob if someone says to you 'at an angle' do you think 0 or 90 degrees? If you do, you're weird.
I mean, the post I was replying to literally was questioning the that said "Strange angle to have the fan instead of vertical".
@@koitorobit certainity is not 45 degrees with gravity forces frighting bearings in both directions instead of just one 🤣
Octopus is a breath of fresh air in the UK energy market. Putting all other companies to shame really.
Either octopus or nationalisation
😂😂😂
I take it you're an Octopus "influencer", then.
Do try not to be quite so obvious.
@@t1n4444 nope. Just like what the company has been doing to shake up the uk energy market and bring about renewable energy solutions
@@toyotaprius79 Would rather stab my own eyes out with my own frozen excrement than give nationalisation even a sniff of a chance. You think the fucking government can innovate like Octopus and others are? Especially a Labour one?! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
They are pretty good + seem to be pushing the envelope. My only problem with them was that until recently their pre-sales "attitude" was discouraging, like, we don't want your biz and we don't want to know anything about you, please go away and stay with your current supplier. They have very recently improved, however.
Neither the presenter nor the octopus representative seemed familiar with the second law of thermodynamics, which dictates that the higher the output temperature ( for a given source temp) the lower a heat pumps efficiency.
It seems like no one in the UK understands that it takes more energy to pump heat to 50C than it does to pump it to room temperature.
I'm sure they are well aware. However most UK housing stock is poorly insulated, so high temp (and thus slightly less efficient) ASHPs offer a potentially easier swap for an existing gas boiler. Ideally, we'd massively overhaul all UK housing insulation and airtightness and then install lower temp, more efficient ASHPs, but in the meanwhile ... Also, and I'm no ASHP expert, maybe their ASHP using R290 can provide higher temps at higher COPs?
@@EugeneLambert no.
Air to air pumps from outside to room temperature.
Air to boiler pumps from outside to boiler temperature. Even a "low temperature" boiler is always hotter than room temperature.
If people understood that simple, and to me, obvious, fact then people would *laugh at them* when they tried to sell such a ridiculous thing.
Just put in a split system that's 1/10 the cost and much more efficient.
This air to boiler is a con job. It barely works but costs thousands and can milk subsidies.
The actual cop is the hot side temperature in Kelvin divided by the difference between the hot and cold sides. Real machines are about 40% efficient. So to pump from outside at 15 to inside at 18 runs around 38 cop. To pump from 15 to 45 (a low temperature boiler) gets you a cop of about 4.
Won't a fan on a non vertical axis, cause wear and start to make a noise after a while ?
It has an upwards angled fan. That's not very sensible if you live in an area that could get snowfall and power cuts at the same time, or if there's a lot of snow while it's on setback at night. Does it have some way to automatically clear the snow if this happens? Do we have to go out and pour warm water in it?
Pity they don't have an 1870's to 1900's terrace for testing.
I am always put off when somebody says that they are "turbocharging" their offering. It just makes me think that it's all vacuous claims.
Must be the tory government association ...
Offer your house to them as a testbed for a Victorian terraced house installation. All costed but free to you of course.
I have warm air heating. Currently gas heats water that passes through a heat exchanger and a fan blows air across and around the house. Octopus have said their system isn't compatible.
As a SW developer I find "mostly female lead firmware team" a very weird thing to try to score "social justice" points on. Women in managerial positions have been a normal thing for a long time and it's not like they had mostly female firmware team...
Don't get me wrong, I am for the freedom of choice of occupation, equal pay for the same work regardless of sex, race, religion age etc. and for fair pay for the value that the work creates (e.g. education and healthcare jobs often struggle with this). The fact that vast majority of engineers are male is not because engineering is hostile to women, but because most women are more interested in doing other things and it's the very same reason why you don't see many male nurses...
I've admired Octopus Energy for quite some time now for what they're doing and been envious that we have nothing even remotely like it here in the Eastern half of Central Europe, but this is a small red flag for many people now... Why does almost every company (and political party) that works to protect the environment and fight the climate change also have to preach the "social justice" BS?
Yes the #girlboss bit didn't go unnoticed.
Why oh why indeed. This is a technical solution attempt to a climate change issue, not a platform for woke promotion. I would be more interetsed if my 80 year old sister who lives alone in a bungalow could afford to install and run a system copmpared to her combi gas boiler, what's that got to do with a female firmware team ???
I certainly hope those 3000 new intallers are NOT mostly "male lead" teams 🤣
Female engineers must cringe at the woke. I know one's who I know being in the field would if they saw this.
What does she mean with getting cold air in you garden? When in cooling mode it will blow hot air from the outside unit , right?
There is no cooling mode
This is an uninformative commercial. I had hoped to watch an infomercial, but got an empty box. So, what about propane makes it a better refrigerant? It never gets cold in the UK, is that the only reason it works? Will it work on the rare days when the UK gets cold? Why? How noisy is it? What's the graph of COP Vs outdoor temp look like, and how is it better than their average competition? I like double beef double cheese burgers, thank you, please.
Biggest concern I have over heat pump is where to put it (on our 1930s semi) also where to put any hot water tank. I'd also be very cautious about buying a heating system that's locked in to my energy supplier's systems especially via an app. What happens when I want to switch suppliers? What happens if I lose my phone or internet connection? A physical control panel is essential.
Not sure about the sloping angle - it looks like it would encourage rain to get in.
Would like to see a Heat Geek review of this heat pump, and high temperature concept.
We are an Octopus customer we signed up for a survey and after an extensive survey they turned us down apparently because there was me space for the hot water cylinder although we already have a mains pressure cylinder and space in the cupboard where the old boiler used to be as the newer oil boiler is now outside so all pipes etc are already installed.
Not sure the surveyor really knew what they were doing.
So we have gone elsewhere for our heat pump.
I myself fitted an air to air Mitsi elec heat pump in 2000, to keep the top floor warm.
When we moved in there were no wet system fitted. Just a gas fire down stairs and through the wall gas heater. That was first to go when we moved in 1997.
That unit looks over kill for my place. I use electric to heat water and have fitted a far infra-red under floor heating Matt in the main living room.
Good bye gas fire and gas hob this year. Looking to have the gas meter removed soon to stop the monthly standing charge.
I have solar panels but need a good battery storage next
Small poit - there are a lot of people who are on oil not gas boilers. Octopus would not fit an ASHP at our cottage despite a decent heat loss survey - it was the lack of willingness to install the hot water tank in our garage that saw the project fail and the government grant being taken away from us !! So for me Octopus need to be more flexible on the installs also look for a ASHP with built in hot water - similar to my outside oil boiler
Just get an air to air installed for a grand that most of the time would be 10 times more efficient than an air to water because it's only pumping the heat up a few degrees, not 35 or more.
In the Netherlands, it is the other way around. We had insulation for the floor for around €2.000 and get €130 back from the Government.
A fully electric heat pump for our house is around €11.000, we get €2.700 subsidized and have to pay €8.300.
Thanks but no thanks. The Dutch government could learn a thing or two from the UK.
I never thought I'd read those words..... but UK get some things right eventually
Our heat pump is currently killing us, and the main issue is that the consumers are left on their own after installation to find out the best way to run it.
Would love a heat pump but i tried setting my boiler to 55c for heating and whilst it felt OK in autumn it soon got cold enough to not really work.
The house is as well insulated as it practicably can be.
And i love the low space footprint of my gas boiler. And i definitely dont want more radiators.
I hope they can find a way to make high temperature as in like 60 plus c.
And also one that could do HW on demand.
I think i might be waiting for a while...
Yeah - we have a solar system and get a certain amount of Kwh per month to use. We just replaced the Combi with a 210L water tank. Now the rads get hot and the bath works fine - job done
Well I just filled out the instant quote and it says I'm currently not eligible for a heat pump even though I'm in a well-insulated detached house, have sufficient space, etc. 🤷🏼♂️
Just changed option to I'm not renovating my home and now it says I'm eligible (surely they'd prefer to install in a house being renovated).
Quote was just under £4769 after grant. Not sure why.
Greed.
@ their literature says this 6kW heat pump is only suitable for an average size 3 bed house. Larger models coming later in the year.
Interestingly, I imported a 24kW swimming pool heat pump direct from a factory in China and it cost me around £1k plus several hundred quid for shipping. There are huge markups on these things.
Get an air to air split 8 kW system with cooling as well installed for under 2 grand. Plus vastly more efficient because it's only pumping up to room temperature
@2:51 On a hot day, running AC inside the house, that fan will blast you with HOT air. You won't like the air coming off of that in any season. It's the opposite of what you're conditioning for in the home.
This is not an AC unit.
@@andrewcunningham1 Thanks. In other parts of the world heat pumps are two way devices that can heat and cool as they have a condensor/evaportator inside and exchange heat with the home's interior. I forgot Britain is saddled with boiler/radiator heating which means this can't provide home cooling.
@@karlInSanDiego Hi Karl. Actually all UK heat pumps are reversible...they have to be to defrost the system in winter. But generally we don't use them to cool in the summer...yet.Some are experimenting with a bit of gentle cooling that just avoids the dew point.
I've long wondered why more heat pumps weren't paint black for that little bit of solar boost from absorbing the sunshine better. Better still perhaps combine one with a Trombe wall type arrangement.
there's no sun to absorb in the UK..
@@decimal1815 Our solar panels and the outdoor thermometers on north and south sides of our house seem to disagree but I get how it feels!
I've never heard of using propane refrigerant except for 3 way fridges in campervans, how long will it last. I've had a high temperature refrigerant before CO2 in a Sanden hot water heat pump, heated water twice as quick as other types, awesome unit.
They sure as hell aren’t quoting £500!!!
They were for me (well, quoted 1k, prior to the gov. increasing the grant), excluding 2x costs: Increasing my loft insulation in order to qualify for the gov. grant, and prepping the area (currently a bramble-patch) where the pump would be placed.
@@logicalChimp lucky you! I've just been quoted £7500, and that's after the grant...true cost was £15k. What a joke, I'll be keeping my gas boiler for now.
@@shmavitzwise choice
£505 for me. All in with 8yr warranty
@@David-bl1bt ???? Why have the quoted me 15 times that amount? £7500
Excellent news. It's fantastic to see such great energy efficiency improvements. Thanks so much for this brilliant episode.
Hard selling more like with misinformation. It's standard price when you go to their website calculator. My semi came out at £7000. You can get better air source heat pumps with recognised professionals in their field. Heat Geek ones are specifically trained for the job. I'd hate to throw good money out to bad and at that price the return on investment is just not enough. My 4kwp solar panels are a much better investment and you can get them cheaper to supply and install.
Is there an option to replace hydronic heating boiler, and instant hot water boiler with one heat pump? Should this be two or one unit? We live in Australia and it seems our option are limited here… I’ve go no idea where to start.
Many areas of the country do not have gas , does the boiler upgrade scheme help these areas.? Many people do not have any boiler.
Does this unit work with a single zone inside the house - or more than one zone? The fan seems smaller than "typical" heat pump.
They mention radiators - are there compressors inside the house - or is this a heating system only?
Unfortunately at the moment Octopus are not installing their cosy 6. We’ve just had them install a heatpump for us and it was a Daikin heatpump, having said that it’s working really well.
The WWF has calculated that the value of your house rises if you install a heat pump, in the range 1.7-3%. Using a uk av. house price of £281k thats between £4.8-£8.4k…….
so long as it works well and buyers understand the cost savings / limitations (which is unlikely in the UK at the moment..)
6-8 months to get an installation date currently and that was not the Cosy 6. So do I keep delaying my install or just accept a Daikin? Decisions.
Cosy6 now being installed👍
issues with siting pumps needs to be addressed. The huge numbers of Victorian terraces in the UK massively impacts this. Not to mention the cost of integrating into existing. Fine if you’re replacing your whole system, but once you add in moving the water tank, replacement radiators stc etc 5he cost is too high.
Those 'integration' costs were included in the quote I got from Octopus (inc. 4x replacement radiators, 1x additional radiator, new water tank, and some new plumbing to integrate everything to the existing plumbing). That said, I agree siting issues for terraced homes is an issue (my planning permission was refused because the outdoor unit would end up too close to the neighbour :/)
Doesn't matter how cheap the unit is, the fundamental problem is the high cost of electricity relative to gas. My electricity is a bit over 24p/kWh while gas is 5.5p/kWh. Even assuming a best-case CoP of 4 (more like 3 in the depths of winter), the heat pump is going to cost more to run. If electricity came down to something like 10p/kWh (like it used to be not that long ago) it would be a no-brainer.
OVO have a heat pump tariff that is 15p/kWh for the heat pump usage.
Also, you need to adjust your gas rate as that is based on gas usage not heat output. With gas boilers in the UK achieving an average of 83% in the UK (yes badges say higher, but are rarely met), you are paying 6.6p/kWh per kWh of heat.
Air to air units get vastly higher cop because they're not pushing the heat up to 50 degrees, just up to room temperature.
They're also a 10th of the cost
@@BenIsInSweden Even then, the benefits are marginal and it'll take a very long time to recoup the investment vs an existing boiler. I sat down and researched this for months, really wanted a heat pump but unlike solar panels the numbers just don't add up yet.
@@gasdive Air to air is an expensive non-starter in most homes unless you're building a new house or completely renovating from brick. You'll have to rip out the radiators and build in ducting. And the government unfortunately won't give you a penny.
Would absolutely be the way to go for a new Passivhaus though, especially as part of the MVHR system.
@@ricequackers replacing an existing working boiler should really only be considered if wanting to take the grant and/or saving on CO2.
There are numerous things with the gas and electricity prices currently that do put it on gas's favour due to outdated policies. But they will need to change if the government want to start seeing a rapid adoption of heat pumps. The issue is flipping a switch to update and correct it will leave many in fuel poverty, which won't go down well. So it's likely it's going to be done over a longer period of time.
2:55 wouldn't it be blowing hot air on a hot day if the heat pump was running in reverse, as an air conditioner does?
Heat pumps don't do cooling
@@Hyfly13 they can do cooling. Air to Air do it regardless. Air 2 water is a bit more complicated, usually needing an extra module, and either need some fan coils instead of radiators, or water to air handling unit. Either way, it increases the cost a lot more over just getting an Air to Air unit.
I think a more important issue than heat pump cost is the cost of the insulation that we all know we need before installing a heat pump.
You don't need to insulate any more than any other heating system. They're cheaper to run. Assuming you don't buy this one which heats hot water to a high temperature, and you get an air to air one which only needs to pump up to room temperature, making it 3-10 times more efficient.
I wonder if the Cosy will come to Octopus Energy NZ? We have a gas ducted central heating system, but to switch out to electric costs tens of thousands of dollars and lots of disruption switching out the ducting because it's not suitable for the heat pumps currently sold here. Unfortunately absolutely no subsidies here in NZ, so I wonder what the full cost of the Cosy is?
I’m concerned about their size, I don’t think I could mount that at ground level. I just don’t have the space. Can they be mounted about 4-5 meters high Like an A/C unit ?
As for me that’s the only place for it. Can the water heater be placed in the loft ?. As again, the only place I have for one.
Can we see the inside unit too? Does it need a cylinder?
There is no inside unit, it does require a cylinder.
Having watched this video, I’m of the opinion that the £500 refers to the installation cost of the heat pump but what is the purchase price of the actual unit?
Difficult to believe but propane has a very low global warming potential (GWP) of 0.02 which is surprising because it's a molecule with many modes of resonance, and would presumably break down into CO₂ and methane by UV radiation. Still, IPCC 6 report says it is very low, so I'll go with it.
Heat pumps should be cheap - they are just bidirectional fridges, consisting of a motor, compressor, valve, some tubes and one or two fans, all of which are massively mass produced!
Fridges don't live outdoors. The exterior unit has to e.g. ensure that it doesn't ice itself up on the cold-side when temps are -20, that it doesn't overheat when temps are 35+ (it still needs to run to provide hot water, even if it's not needed for heating the house), and nor do fridges need to run the coolant lines from the compressor to a separate tank to 'store' the heat.... oh - and the space being managed in a fridge is rather smaller than the size of your house :p
@@logicalChimp Your points are understood but I'm still disappointed with the hardware pricing. Of course I am emphatically not surprised by the installation costs - it's difficult and there are many horror stories of incompetence.
It’s interesting that when it comes to EV’s and the energy infrastructure the grid won’t cope, but with everyone having heat pumps that will most likely all be turned on at the same time, there’s no mention of a problem.
At 2:55, presenter describes getting a blast of cold air while standing in the garden on a hot day. On a hot day, heat pumps work by pumping undesired heat out of the house. The outdoors fan is blasting heated air on a hot day and cooled air on cold days (pumping the unpleasantness outside). The boxy outdoors units have a larger radiator area to transfer the unpleasantness outdoors, and are thus more efficient.
I still Wonder why it seems to be necessary to put the heatpump outside of your house. Mine stands in the cellar, the air is floating trough two small windows. And it works for more than ten years now.
To the best of my knowledge, I've never been in a house with a cellar in the UK that's less than 100 years old. So while that would be fine, it's not a solution for most homes.
I do like Octopus Energy! I am not (yet) a customer but everything seems to point to them being the best in the UK ... This Cosy 6 is very intriguing
I'm with Octopus, I'm Octopus Go at the moment, with a 14.4Kwh PHEV car, as well as the GivEnergy All in One 13.5Kw home battery, I have the IBoost+ to heat my water tank & 4Kw solar panels & triple glazed thru-out.
I asked for a quote from Octopus, within a day I one for £4500. No one visited to see what's best, where to place the pump or see if I needed any further additional insulation.
I'd much rather see a person, with advice or even three quotes following the heat geeks information.
Octopus still needs to work on the personal touch & not the hard sell, where we all seek compensation in ten years time?
Seems crazy having “Engineers” installing heat pumps, their time would be better spent in R&D, designing spacecraft, wind turbines or electric vehicles, why not train installers to install heat punps.
My house is 150 years old probably in the 10% and we've installed underfloor heating, but I can't get anyone to confirm that their system will not only give us hot water but can supply the underfloor too! Also, these things need to be 300mm off a wall! When will they be able to be located in the loft space?
It sounds like Octopus are only interested in the easy, standard houses, where the grant covers their cost. Have you discovered the Heat Geeks? They're the real experts in complex systems.
I have seen them on TH-cam but maybe time to engage thank you
They will never be located in a loft space because they have to extract heat from air which has a rather low thermal capacity. That means that the heat exchanger must be located in the open where the air is constantly moving even in the calmest weather. The air in a loft will not be exchanged fast enough,. Regarding underfloor heating it is a brilliant match with a heat pump. This is because underfloor heating can operate at lower flow temperatures than most radiators. The lower the flow temperatture the higher the Coefficient of Performance or output heating power divided by electrical input power. That means lower bills.
@@rogerphelps9939 I run the systems at 65C but you do have to understand how they work. Same as a ship tanker, slow to get going and a long time to stop.
I've a 20kwh home battery system, oversized to enable the gas boiler to go
At 65C a heat pump is a ridiculous proposition.
The theoretical limit for a heat pump is the hot side temperature in Kelvin divided by the difference between the hot side and the cold side. You usually get about 40% of the theoretical limit.
So if it's 15 outside, and you want to make it 18 inside, with a 65C boiler, that's 338K divided by 50, that's 6.76. times 40% that's 2.7. So you're looking at a COP of about 2.7.
With an air to air, the hot side at 18C, that's 291. Divide it by the difference between inside and out, that's 97. The theoretical limit is 97. Multiply by 40% gives you the likely COP, 38.
Now you could say that the cop gets worse for the air to air as the outside temperature falls, and that's true, but it's always going to be better than the air to water.
Installation costs are quite high still for a large house.. even with grant.. because of all the extra works required.
Problem for a lot of UK houses is insulation and access to space for pump, pipes and tank, etc. We really need to bring back grants for improving home insulation, but can't see that happening.
The 'sweet spot' is houses that are well insulated, have space for all the components, and have solar panels and battery storage so that the electricity required to run the system is as cheap as possible. Would love to install all of these renewable solutions, but not many households have got spare £thousands at the moment.
In a small 3 bed property, I don't really have room for a massive heat pump in my tiny garden, I would hope I'm not the only person that wants a heat pump, but only if it takes up less space, say like the space my gas boiler takes up in my kitchen?
Air to air mini split.
Maybe already commented? I did not read the 691 comments. At around 3:00 : On a hot day you would want to cool the inside of the house. In the Garden the heat pump would blow hot air (the calories moved out from the house inside). It would not blow cold.
Unless it is used not for A/C but heat the water as you do even when it is hot outside ;-)
It’d be fairer if they stated that their install costs that little after considering the BUS grant. Otherwise folks might think that Octopus have found the holy grail everyone has been looking for. Except, they haven’t.
Under what circumstances would you expect a nice cooling breeze coming from the heatpump fan outside in your garden? Have you ever stood in front of one in summer????
How does one conclude that a plastic shell is more robust and hard wearing than a metal one?
My cosy6 gets instalked 18th Nov.
I have been waiting since my survey last March for installation.
I used their online quotation tool and discovered a price differential from my original quote, so I contacted them about it.
They agreed to honour my new updated quote as well as apply a £250 October discount promotion.
My new price for full install is ....ZERO!....a result!
It breaks down as ...
Base price £ 8335.84
Gov grant -£7500
October promotional discount -£250
Radiator discount -£585.84
Total to pay £0.00
• the radiator discount is because I am upgrading one bedroom radiator myself (as I have a suitable one that was removed during recent home alterations).
Nice idea but a commercially integrated solution will always prioritise profitability of the provider over cost reduction for the consumer. What currently provides a clear customer benefit will ultimately transpire to be a captive system. Only divorcing energy service & energy product providers will ensure consumer interest.
Unfortunately not in my area yet. I was surprised as I live in Birmingham I would have thought big cities would be prioritised.
Hi,
I watched your video when you put it up and I was enthusiastic. In fact, I am in the process of getting a Heat Pump from Octopus (just waiting for a re-survey) and I have asked if I can have the Cosy 6 rather their current Daikin offering.
However (& it's a big however), MCS has now tested the Cosy 6 and it didn't do very well. At 55° flow temperature, the SCOP is less than 3, which, as I'm sure you know, means that it would be more expensive to run compared to a dirty gas boiler. Even at a low flow temperature of 35°, the SCOP is still less than 4. It's very disappointing!
Youre not Phil Reilly who was my neighbour in spain by any chance?
@David-bl1bt Hi David, Sorry, no I'm not. There are a surprisingly large number of us spread around the world!
On another tack, if the way to get us to go green then make ASHP and solar a joint installation. As only a small proportion of our electricity comes from renewables (solar / wind) the rest comes from fossil fuels. So how is ASHP better for the environment? I'm still on the fence!
When are we going to get a heat pump that gan go in your loft?
Never. There's not enough heat in your loft to heat your house.
@@Hyfly13 No. Take the air in and out through a vents in the wall. You'd need a gable ended roof, of course.
For the UK as a whole heat pumps might not be a good idea. Simple storage heaters can store energy and cost a hell of a lotbless to install. The main barrier is the charging mechanism for electrcity. I.e. it is cheaper just to build more wind turbines and use storage heaters to store the energy overnight
In the last 5 years in the UK it seems that the housing stock has become suitable for heat pumps even though there has not been a country wide scheme for improving insulation in housing. I don't think heat pump technology has improved to overcome poor quality insulation in housing. If I'm wrong please enlighten me. I'd love to have a heat pump.
I’m no expert on anything to do with heat pumps, but will rain falling down into the angled up fan cause any issues? Obviously they’ve taken that into account but I’m interested in why they chose to design it this way and why it works.
I'm all for a heat pump, been banging the drum with my family for over a year now thanks to Heat Geek and this channel.
There may be a big problem incoming btw with smart metres, mines never worked because my flat has no mobile signal.
All smart metres in the UK use 3G and that is being decommissioned by the gov/network providers soon.
Won't that render all smart metres in the UK no longer smart when that happens?
Maybe they should work by syncing to your phone/app instead.
EDF are aware my smart metre doesn't work, a bloke comes out and all he can do it turn it off and on again and still no signal, he reports back to EDF and.. nothing. is it my job to chase them about this? nope.
If I understand the requirements correctly to replace our combi boiler we would need to also install a cylinder, upgrade insulation, pipes and radiators. So far from the £500 quoted. Much as i'd love to get one, I just can't see how given we have a 1930's solid brick building.
Just work on insulation.
Little bit more each year.
Can be £500 for some homes, you get the 7k grant to pay for those upgrades.
If you are truly serious about wanting to change to a heat pump and system, don't rely on a vague understanding. Do the research. As one has already said here, there is a sizeable grant available, and insulating a home is not costly - typically £600.
I think it was Martin Lewis, just in January, who said that it would be cheaper for the government and the taxpayer to allow for UK homes to be insulated for free. Which would be a one-off cost. As opposed to backing up the high cost of bills with rebates. But, no they didn't do that. Because that would hit the oil/gas companies.
@@ramblerandy2397Who is insulating 9" brickwork houses for £600?
Unless you live in a narrow terraced house I'm not sure you could do it DIY for £600 nevermind getting a company to do it.
@@gavjlewis That figure is from Octopus Energy
A conventional heat pump seems so cumbersome, expensive to fit and unsuitable for so many smaller homes. When you compare to a combi gas boiler they just don’t seem to be the future of heating.
The best form of heating I ever had was in my shop - a simple electric panel heater with thermostat and timer. So cheap to buy and fit and instant heat whenever I needed it. 100% efficient too apparently and was not expensive to run.
Someone tell my why this form of heating is frowned upon.
You say it's not expensive to run, but it would be compared to gas central heating or a heat pump for the same level of comfort. A simple air to air heatpump would have cost about 1/4 to run. And gas when set up correctly would have been about 1/3rd.
Would love one of these but we have a fairly typical 90s detached (A rated EPC) and it seems it would involve re-install tank, replace all radiators and most problematic, rip out the microbore pipes downstairs.
Its High Temp so you shouldn't need more radiators or ripping out micro bore. That's the point. It generates temps around 60 degrees C like most boilers are set to.
@@OracleTruthSeer Thanks, for this. Looks like I need to follow this up with them at some point.
Wrong. I have a mostly microbore system and it works fine with my heat pump. I had o replace the radiators which were a motly bunch of outmoded things anyway. In general the wall area did not increase much and the main differences were two panels instead of one and convectors (the corrugated metal) on the back.) I really do not know how this idea that heat pumps do not work with microbore came from. It's just not true.
Or just install an air to air at a tenth the cost and up to ten times the efficiency and just leave the radiators and whatnot ignored.
@@rogerphelps9939 we had a Heat Geek assessment and this was the recommendation. Not in a rush so will see how this develops with @OctopusEnergy.
I wonder if I could keep my combi to deal with domestic hot water and use a heat pump for the central heating. This is a new house, well insulated and I'd be OK with paying more to have lower emissions. It's sacrificing indoors space for a water tank that would stop me from going ahead.
Air to air doesn't need a tank and it's more efficient and cheaper, (particularly split) even without being eligible for the subsidy.
The price has gone up a little then, it was “From £0” when it was announced last year.
Not exactly news now, most other energy companies are doing £500 heat pumps (after the grant) - alright, “from £500” assuming no other work is required.
I love Octopus and am a customer but I find the £0-£500 quote hard to believe as my quote was over £10K so over £2.5K after the grant. I have a tiny house with only 5 Rads so no idea how 'lots' of people are getting lower quotes.