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Just had a octopus daikin 6kw ASHP installed 3 weeks ago. New build with plastic micro bore. They replaced 6 rads & 3 towel rails, upgraded from single to double panels. 300 L water tank & volumizer for defrost cycles. Works really well & I had loads of fear about micro bore, very hot water & heating the house nicely on cold days. Quiet in operation & cost us less than £2k after bus grant. Usual very good service from Octopus, would highly recommend to anyone considering it
Hi can I ask what initial quotes were? No survey yet but they gave an initial quote for 4200 after grant for a 3 bed semi. Both yours sound very good prices
Initial quote was £9700,, so came to £2,200, but dropped again to £1950 due to Daikin £250 discount. 9 radiators replaced, none of interior piping was changed. Ours was a relatively straightforward job, took the 4 days to commission
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I have had similar "ugly" comments re my solar panels.. to me they all look beautiful, much better than gas boilers and generating power plants 😊
I love my solar panels. A couple of my neighbours said they were ugly but I dont care. Even today, an overcast 'summers' morning, having coffee. The energy meter says I'm pushing a couple hundred Watts back into the grid and the base load appliances are all running for free.
Also that the heat pump replacement scheme only applies if you have a boiler that is replaced. Logical the subsidy should cover new builds rather than just replacement
@@waynecartwright7276 Amen. The developer should be required to provide enough PV to generate most of the annual energy requirements for both powering and heating the property
Thanks for sharing Nicolas. Enjoyable to watch, we are going through the same process trying to replace a combi with an ASHP, so good viewing. Liked and subscribed. It was probably a slip of the tongue, but you mentioned a Harvi as a solar diverter (24:40) which is actually the Myenergi Eddi. The Harvi is their wifi hub that wirelessly links the Myenergi devices. I suspect a slip of the tongue as the video slider says Eddi for that section. Not sure if you have experienced the Heatpunk website yet. For those of a more technical bent, this is a free online survey tool that allows you do conduct your own house measurements and input them into the Heatpunk website to produce your own survey report and ASHP recommendation. You can play with room temps, air changes per hour, flow temps, etc. Most won't care to undertake this effort, but for some of us it is of value to have a ball park to compare with when the installer survey comes in. This might be something worth mentioning in your next video?
Hi, I have only just seen your video. I am a retired heating engineer: First, I suggest you get a heating company in your area that has a good reputation to give you an estimate. If they are good they will come up with lots of ideas. 2 Don’t be swayed to put it near the path or highway, it is likely to get stolen, vandalised, graffiti or sticks poked into the fan, etc. 3 Wherever you put it, make sure you can run the condense water somewhere, the condense from HPs is greater than a condensing boiler. 4 watch out for wind direction, if it blows toward the fan it will affect the performance. Hot water cylinder can be a problem, but check with other Manufacturers’ you could perhaps get one smaller with an extra large coil inside, (which HP cylinders do have anyway) that would be smaller in the loft. (make sure you place it over a wall underneath, to help take the weight, just think of 1 litre = 1 kg good enough for the weight calculation + weight of the cylinder itself). I could go on, but I’ll stop there.
Worth considering if its put outside of the wall, it could accidentally get damaged by kids playing or god forbid vandalised, incurring considerable costs further down the line. We made some compromises when choosing a place for ours. Originally wanted it on a first floor flat roof but they said no. Another location exceeded the primary pipework limit (10m I think) from unit to tank. So we put it in front of the kitchen (No windows) minimised interference with the space of the garden and no planning permissions needed etc and very importantly it's safe! We're happy with it and it performs really well. 11kw Daikin monobloc (silver/black grill) on average insulated, 6 bed semi.
Could have gone on flat roof. Octopus just don't want to get the ladders out. Yes it's more difficult for them but plenty of heat pumps get installed on roofs with the appropriate mounting kit.
You have highlighted some of the issues that I face with respect to the installation of an ASHP in my property. It will be interesting see what Octopus come up with and what you decide to do so I look forward to your future videos.
Crazy to take out a combi boiler for this heat pump rigmarole!! You might save £200 a year but it’s costly to install and costly to maintain! Net zero insanity
It's like EVs & solar panels, where small numbers of early adopters got hugely subsidised by the rest of us, which in the case of a ASHP involves a grant of £7500. But like EVs, when something big goes wrong, then it'll likely cost a small fortune to replace. The future will be a place where only virtue signalling better off types will be able to afford to run a car & decent heating.
@ you started off going right and then rubbish… subsidies start to help build demand and drop prices solar is hugely cheaper to buy, EVs dropped from being 80k to 15k new and heat pumps be same
@@NicolasRaimo - Cobblers, there's no comparison between an 80k Tesla & a 15k Dacia EV. And AC Units & fridges have been around for many decades, which are basically ASHPs in reverse.
@ they are simlair but scales of them are different it’s also the labour force, before the grant people doing ASHP were small niche firms making huge profit margins
Very interesting with detail. It brought it all back for me - deciding where everything goes. The work you might be expected to do yourself is easily presumed to be something the installer will do so it's vital to go through things in detail and be ready on the day. Things like, a foundation and soak away for the heat pump, platform for the tank and access etc. I have heard of people fitting larger loft hatches or temporarily removing part of a ceiling. My loft hatch was large enough to get a 300 litre tank in and onto it's side but tilting it upright between roof rafters and supports onto its platform was a job and a half. It's platform bridges over two close solid brick walls so no structural issues at least. I had already boarded over much of my loft insulation and fitted a better light. You want to keep pipe run lengths to a minimum as much as possible to minimise heat loss and pressure drop from resistance. You ideally want to tee into the middle of your 22mm (probably where the boiler did) but so each flow and return 28mm split tees into two 22mm fanning out either way so the cross section surface area gets bigger. You don't want to neck down to 22mm and then fan out in 22mm like the boiler did. Heat pumps need a higher flow rate than a boiler to get the same kW output at a lower flow and return Δt of 5°C as opposed to a boiler's Δt of 11°C. So you don't want bottle necks. Have they mentioned a low loss header or buffer tank? Ideally you don't need one but they are often used with a secondary pump to make up for inadequacies in flow to ensure the heat pump can operate at Δt5° so it doesn't throw a flow rate error when the radiators can only manage Δt 8° or something because of flow restrictions. The two flow loops are hydraulically separated but mix in the buffer as required. Some heat pump manufacturers insist on low loss headers to avoid heat pump call outs but if the pipework is designed correctly you won't actually need one. I have one but the flow from the heat pump exits to the radiators at the same temperature and the same for the radiator return back to the heat pump. If my radiator loop was restrictive I'd see a differential temperature across the header which leads to inefficiency as you'll need a higher flow temperature from the heat pump to make up for the lower flow through the radiator loop. This "distortion" is best avoided. The less flow restrictions and the greater surface surface area of radiators the better as you can lower the flow temperature of the heat pump. Just because it can do a high temperature flow doesn't mean you should operate it like this. More input energy is required and that's what costs. Better to shift the same kW of free heat energy from the air at a lower temperature and higher flow rate requiring less input energy. Try and keep all your pipe runs in the heated envelope of the house to minimise loss. So under the loft insulation and all lagged. Pipes buried in walls etc may be a source of heat loss. I keep internal doors open and the whole house at the same temperature with the system permanently running. Zoning was more of a thing for boilers. Heat pumps are best working with all radiators fully on for the lowest flow temperature. If you switch off radiators it won't run as efficiently as it will tend to short cycle. It's a different mindset compared to boilers and the weirdest thing is having the radiators at body temperature of 37°C so they feel like a person and yet the house is warm in winter. It's a bit like having a house full of people to keep you warm. You are right about the Eddi solar diverter. It's much better to export the solar surplus these days with the more generous export rates. If you heat your water at night at cheap rate tariff you instantly have at least a two to one advantage in rates with an immersion heater and with a heat pump doing the heating more like a six to one advantage. The Eddi can still be of use to do the Legionella cycle and extra tank temperature monitoring. One other consideration for a public footpath facing heat pump is the defrost cycle making clouds of water vapour on a frosty morning. They might think your purple bin' s on fire 😉
timely video there Nick,i was only on the phone to Octopus today about a unrelated matter and i asked them to email me a link for heatpumps, like you i have no hot water tank, but there was one that was removed when the combi was installed 20+ years ago, however the "cowboys" that installed the combi used micro bore pipes and channelled them into the solid stone walls (2ft 6inch thick), if i do get a heat pump i will run fresh 15mm pipe surface mounted/under floorboards, luckily i have space for a hot water tank in the cupboard that currently houses the combi boiler, ps my house was built circa 1800's so the majority is solid stone walls excepting the 2 extensions 1 side 2 storey(circa 1988) and the rear single storey extension (circa 2016), keep us posted on develpments :) :)
If you do go for a heat pump from octopus theres a Pin'd comment at top to knock another £100 off if it helps. What size microbore pipes did they put in 8mm or 10mm?
Thanks for the video. I spoke to them about a year ago and at the time I was told they couldn't put the buffer tank in the loft, so interesting to hear that it can now be done. They were also not too happy about the vermiculate loft insulation I had under the extra mineral wool layer (due to possible asbestos contamination).
I got an ASHP earlier this year, quotes from Dec 23 and I have the standard Daikin one and needed a storage heater. Works fine from my POV but with a relatively mild winter not easy to say if saves. However what I know is combined with agile that it works well from my POV and no reliance on gas and those who supply it.
It's a good shout on the radiators, I assumed my house would be copper pipe and tapped off which does help with the presumed problem - though I haven't lifted my floorboards yet, the signs are good. Loft hatches between the rafters - good old new builds, mine is like that, you only get just under 600mm to play with in new builds, you can make them longer but not wider without pretty serious complications. NGL I'm not personally a fan of tanks (and really any infrastructure, particularly water-containing infrastructure) in my loft. Yeah, you'll probably never have a problem with it, but when you do the problems tend to be relatively quite serious - and you have to get the heat up there to start with which is relatively lossy. I'm holding off on heat pumps on two basis - firstly that if permitted development rights allow larger volume units there might be a flood of new products that are more efficient (larger volume = larger heat exchanger = more efficient). Secondly, exhaust air heat pumps really appeal to me because my new build is super efficient, and I want to take heat that gathers at the top of my (3-story) house and put it back in at the ground floor and tap it off excess, plus the ventilation. With an EAHP I might be able to tear out my radiators entirely and not have to worry about the pipework nonsense. Both of those markets are going to take time to develop, and I think I'm going to wait for that. On tanks - I have a huge space under my stairs that only has an ironing board and my server rack that could easily be used for a water tank, somebody should really make a wedge-shaped one that could go there.. In re putting a heat pump unit next to the pavement like that, I honestly don't think I would want it where people could vandalise it as they walk past anyway, people be people, doesn't matter how nice the area is.
Informative video but I had nothing but trouble with my Octopus survey, paid my £500 deposit and the first appointment they did not turn up, when they arrived on the second appointment, I had two surveyors one training the other. They were at my property for four hours and it all went well Octopus needed to install three radiators heat pump to the front of the house with external pipes going up to the loft and into my airing cupboard to the new tank. A week later I got an email to say they needed to do another survey and when the surveyor arrived, he said straight away sorry but as you have a room in the loft the pipes from the heat pump cannot be covered. So, no heat pump install, it took me 5 months to get my £500 deposit back and that was only by going to the energy ombudsman, we did get £200 compensation from Octopus in the end but the communication from them was awful.
I installed a heat pump and much larger radiators but I kept all of my original, 32 year old 8mm copper microbore circuit, and it works very well indeed. It just needs a dedicated pumped secondary circuit, connected to the primary via a low loss header. It would be a shame if Octopus refused to consider that.
Why would anyone in their right mind, replace gas heating with electric. Electricity is approximately four times the cost of gas at the moment. This variance will increase as more and more GREEN subsidies are loaded onto electricity costs. I don’t profess to be good at maths, but using this case as an example, a new gas boiler (which wasn’t required, new build) circa£1000, the above system, £3500. How many years will it take to recover the costs of changing? Absolute insanity, the world is becoming unhinged.
Gas boiler combi replacement is £2500. Heat Pump install was £1350. Gas boiler is 0.9 COP "90% efficient" Heat Pump is between 3-5 COP so 300% to 500% efficient This means a heat pump installed with a cop of around 3.5cop will be same price as a boiler on STANARD electrical deal however when paired with heat pump energy deals or other inventive energy deals the electric price is MUCH cheaper I pay 7p for example between 23:30-5:30 If I heat my water or prewarm the home during these times I get that heat for around 2p a kwh of energy your gas boiler can't match a heat pump
@ Where can anyone obtain a heat pump for £1350? (assuming this cost is for supply and fit) Labour alone would account for most of that cost, assuming approximately four man days. There is absolutely no point in having a sensible exchange of comments whilst dealing with fantasy numbers. In addition, I accept hot water can be heated during off peak, but ‘pre warming’ the house, another fantasy justification. All the electricity deals offering lower off peak charges have higher day time charges? Hence, if a top up of warmth and hot water is required, the night savings are wiped. It’s your hard earned money, you are free to spend it however you wish. If heat pumps are that good, why is the Government throwing money at it? It should be no brainer.
@@PaulWhittle-g9c So it could be EVEN LESS price is FROM £500 depends on home type etc... go to EVnick.com/energy and follow info for octopus energy heat pump quote use my code if you order and your get another £100 off price. Heat pumps work low and slow, so I preheat water and start to preheat the home during the offpeak hours but even using peak electric its same price as gas but my average with offpeak means is LESS THAN gas
I agree, my boiler is on the way out and I've been looking into heat pumps and i just don't see the savings. Efficiency numbers are irrelevant, cost per year is only relevance. I can't see any savings per year to a gas boiler. The mechanics of a heat pump appear complex creating a huge liability. Also like you say in this case, they would have had a perfectly good boiler which effectively is part of the house price when you buy it, so they have probably lost over 1k before the actual install.
@ Gas boiler was on a £35 a month insurnace plan becuase of its age so £420 a year this comes with an 8 year warranty so that saving ALONE means 3 years its covered install cost. My Savings on heat pump are MUCH higher than typical customers as I have solar and battery However even for regular non solar or battery customers there is savings and a better more evenly heated home. Rather than my home having cold spots and only being warm when am in, its always no less than 18c (my choice could go down to 17c) but when am in my lounge sits between 21-22c (again my choice) this more evenly heated home cost less to run than my gas boiler did which always got my lounge to 21c but struggled to raise most the home above 19c and dropped as low as 13c in colder spells. If you got a heat pump and got the worst effeincy form ocotpus which is set at 320% you'd still save money and if you combine it with there electric deal for heat pumps its EVEN better
Not pleased with Octopus at present - Got an initial quote which was great and then had to delay slightly to get an EPC done - Came back with an EPC rating of B which is great - However, I've since had no reply to several emails from my Octopus consultant and they never called me on a scheduled call, so I'm now in limbo with no idea how to progress - Thanks Octopus!
I ran pipes inside a stud wall by cutting out plasterboard where the noggins were, notching the noggins, then putting back the cut out plasterboard & filling - pipes fed in from the roof space.
I would be bloody annoyed if as the neighbour I had to have your heat pump closer to my bedrooms than it was to yours regardless of the dB which can change over time 😀
@@farab4391 yeah, I can’t hear it from my bedroom but when I’m next to the heat pump you can just hear it a little bit? I don’t get what your point is 🤷♂️
@@farab4391 judging by your other comments on this video you seem to have a weird vendetta against heat pumps, if your happy with your 25 year old gas boiler in your garage and you’re not getting a heat pump then why are you on here having a moan about them? Bit strange don’t you think?
The whole thing sounds horrendous. Like myself, many people, in the past, opted for a combi boiler and had the loft tanks removed and the hot water cylinder and all associated pipework taken away and, in some cases used those locations for different purposes. If I get a heat pump, where on earth would I put that big ass ugly cylinder plus the outdoor unit? Then there'd be all the floorboard lifting, the ceiling disruption, additional insulation and possible radiator renewal/relocation required. Finally the cost of the whole thing. Not for me I'm afraid. I'll stick with the combi for as long as they allow me.
Thanks for video, interesting points but i woukd never assume all those personal preferences wouod be done for free! I mean kitting out yr loft, you really expect that done for free? And chasing in pipes.. you seem a finicky customer which is fair enough but i sont see how you would expect all these labour intensive options are done for free, we alk need to make a living you know! Aside from that, i had a vaillant ashp fitted by B Gas, new pipes, new rads, all surface boxed in and very neat. Works well and very efficient, well pleased and an interest free monthly payment of £140.
Hey Mike, I didn't expect them to broad my loft out for free but I also didn't expect to broad out my loft am more raising awareness this might need to be done. Regarding chasing pipes many installs will include this it would of been nice for octopus to offer a PAID option for them to do it rather than my self again I get octopus quote is to hit a target price but sometimes options are nice.
@@NicolasRaimo ANY work in loft really requires boarding, even TV or sky fitter would request this.. anyway it's good to do, think of all the storage space plus extra insulation..
Loks like 80:s tec. Modern heat pumps in sweden is one 60x60 cm indoor module 2m high, like a fridge. plus one outdoormodule. Compact and everything included.
Thanks for making this video Nick. I'm about to have renovations done to my large bungalow. I'm considering a heat pump, would like underfloor heating if possible. I'll be watching your progress.
To be fair to Octopus, they are producing a minimum cost product with the aim of having the maximum number of installs. Greg Jackson (Octopus CEO) is working very hard to make ASHP adoption as palitable as possible. The installation of these systems is so user-specific that you can understand why their budget quotes don't cover many additions that some installs might require.
@@NicolasRaimo no I mean the room to house all the workings. I was trying to get my wife interested in a heat pump on the baxi stand at electric show. she says we going backwards when she's got a combi boiler that goes in a little cupboard.
@@nickosullivan5456 Do you mean a plant room? The Daikin and Cosy6 will be monobloc designs so most of the workings are in the external unit. Any expansion vessels, buffer tank and hot water cylinder will be in the loft. Nick will get an additional empty kitchen cupboard in the process - the one housing the boiler.
According to the installation manual, the primary from the Daikin HP to the cylinder max length is 10 meters. You have plenty of room at the back of the house for the pump? I don't understand why Octopus offers solar diverters why would you want to heat via the immersion at an efficiency of 1 when I can use the heat pump & solar to heat the water at an efficiency of >2 allowing you to export more leccy or run more appliances from solar than you would using the diverter immersion heater. I must be missing something regarding the solar diverter
Sorry Nick but high temperature heat pumps are not something you want. You get high performance at low temperatures, and although refrigerants like propane can go high. If you like money, you don't want them to have to. Propane is still a hydrocarbon too, a naturally occurring one at that.
I concur with your comment on efficiency, but Octopus is priced to maximise market uptake, not produce efficient systems. As you say, propane is a hydcrocarbon, but here it is just the R290 'refrigerant' used in the ASHP. It isn't used up, it just recirculates. Even in the event of a system leak there is only around 1kg in it and propane is many orders of magnitude less damaging to the environment (CO2 equiivalent) bthan the previous refrigerant (R32). This is worlds away from actually burning the stuff to produce heat.
add a light on your on connected with an extension cable and a switch - lot cheaper and should work. I still wonder what amount you end up with cause here in germany we changed our attitude too and add aditionally to the oil central heating a heatpump that is sg ready which stands for surplus energy from the roof. And we start simply by adding or replacing the heatpump first and then look afterwards which radiators have to be replaced . this way you will get what you really need and we get a 12 kW mono block heatpump based on propan with wlan and home assistand integration fro just 2400€ without subsidies and 500€ for installation, so about 2700 GBP incl vat If I want subsidies I have to do more paperwork and so on and would endup around 1600 € or 1400 GBP We have here a lot of german and european heatpump vendors but a lot are also getting chinese heatpumps and theses also have energy labels and are on a qualification list for subsidies which means they have to show a cop of 3 or higher. Our choice has a COP of 3,15 and a SCOP of 3,75 where the SCOP is the only one that matters cause it is based on an average year and average home so that these figures are comparable across al manufacturers. Therefore a lot of manufacturers will try to hide the SCOP and advertise with all the COP for a7 or a10 and 35 °C output, not the usual radiator of 55°C we are used with oil and gas central heatings. World best heatpump achieves 4,5 SCOP and ours is just 3,75 which means we will need 20% more energy but we do not care cause our kWh price is 28 cent, off peak is 20 cent and 8 cent our money we get for feeding, so about 15 cent by average during heating period. If we use 3000 kWh with the world best heatpump then we could expect and to use 600 kWh more which would meand 75€ a year or 60 GBP. Does not make sense to pay 12500€ or more for the worlds best heatpump if I can save 10.000 by this 1 decision only if you can save just 75€ . Not even 100€ or 200€ would ever pay back in lifetime . If the cheap chinese would run just 5 years we could easily bug a new one. And chinese are not sstupid, cause they learned their lesson and only got the quite expensive EU homologation cause they are ready to deliver spare parts and even manual for use and an installation manual each over 100 pages long. AND they learned that panasonic builds the best compressors and danfoss the controls therefore they are using these important parts from major brands. I can only suggest to look twice and do all the stuff on your own cause you can not loose much assuming your are not living on the islands up in the norths like scapa flow or so where it is colder. We have installed that in a house built in 1970 with 200 m² of space and about 180 m² heated with a 25 kWp solar power roof and a 15 kWh battery. We also added a water heat pump to increase efficiency with a heat exchanger or coil from Atlantic made in france which was even more expensive than the whole heatpump (paid 2100€) Here in germany octopus would have no chance with such expensive offers even though they have also entered the german energy market and battling with tibber from norway. Right now they are not succeeding cause only a few know Octopus from the UK, but who knows if they can lower the prices things might change, but no one would trust a british company to do all the jobs in their home by hiring subcontractors for cheap cause we have already many complaints from a similiar business where the home owner can rent a solar power system on his roof and will own that after 20 years or so where the cost will end up in twice the price or by hding costs for an ev wallbox. They get it for free for 2 years and will pay just 35€ for such charger - each month. 7500€ for a wallbox in total - and I doubt that it would even last 10 years, most die after 6 year of usage.
So what if you do already have a water tank? Presumably they have to take that out before putting the new one in… and therefore what happens water-wise in the interim?
@@diddybopper2052 if it’s an old tank then yes it may be your without water a day or so for hot but your still have cold feed just have to shower day of install
I had a survey but due to the house size and no space a new heat pump is not suitable. I decided have a new boiler and increase efficiency of the property to reduce gas usage.
We had our survey recently too the paper work arrived Friday, let me know if you want to compare notes. The biggest standout for me was the design flow temperature of 50C targeting a SCoP is 3.34 (334%). Reducing the flow temperature like 40C could result in a higher SCoP (4.04) but might require additional radiator changes. The proposed hot water cylinder is also steel rather than copper
This is the downside to Octopus quotes. They are budget focussed to get ASHP installs more widely adopted. This unfortunately also means they are not the highest performance systems available. However, the installation cost is so low that you are hard pushed to get a high quality intall (like a Heat Geek Elite system) to be justifiable. The savings of a SCOP 4 - SCOP 5 system over a SCOP 3.3 system would take many years to recoup. From an environmental point of view, getting homes on a SCOP 3.3 system from a gas boiler are a massive step and you can see where Octopus are putting their energy.
Question I have about it is… can I control the flow temperature on the heat pump like I can control the gas boiler? We run our gas boiler at around 42c. We’re awaiting an octopus survey in a couple weeks
I'm interested in the cosy fan being on an angle as most heatpump noise issues usually happen when the unit isn't upright with a wonky base causing noise 🤷♂️ Has the cosy got extra special bearings 🤔
that be because the fan is mounted to be at that angle rather than on an angle if this fan is mounted to be at this tilt it be fine as long as the base of the unit is level
Waiting for my Octopus Survey ATM. Actually pleasantly surprised by the extras. I was expecting I may need to pay extra even for surface pipes from existing boiler location to the new location. Im the opposite with boiler in loft and new location downstairs. Only hope they have white ducting by the time they get to me
Great video, I'm right at the start of my journey with Octopus and solar/heat pumps, thought that it might be better to get solar panels first to offset the difference between electric/gas prices but much more expensive to get panels so maybe better to get a great pump first since it would be on par with gas due to COP 4 anyway and we don't know how long the subsidy will last however the option you mentioned to have the pump connected to solar makes me wonder if this could be done retrospectively if I got a heat pump and then solar later? 🤯 such a lot to think about and juggle, really grateful for these videos.
Instead of installing a Domestic Hot Water Storage (with all related problems) you could install a Hybrid System (Wall-hung Gas boiler + Air to water Heat Pump). In this case the Gas Boiler will produce domestic hot water instantaneously (so the gas boiler will start only when a hot water demand is generated by opening a tap) while the Heat Pump will be used for heating the rooms. In addition the Gas Boiler can also be activated to support Heat Pump when outdoor temperature is very cold or to speed up the room warming up. This will semplify the installation and reduce the total cost of it. What do you think abput?
This is interesting to keep in mind, heat pump system services might cost more than gas boiler systems. Does it require a more involved service than a hot water tank that's part of a gas boiler system? Whenever I have a service done, they only do the gas boiler and gas fire, are they supposed to also check the hot water tank? Mine's never been done in 25 years and I've had not problems.
Maybe I misunderstood what you're planning to do but surely using the heat pump to heat hot water is more efficient than using solar / battery to heat it via an immersion heater?
Also, no attic since the ‘70s looks like that!! Insulation is in the roof so any installations are inside the heated “shell” and not exposed to outside cold which puts a strain on the pipes and boiler vat own insulation. (Affecting heat loss.) The cold water intake of the boiler is also vulnerable to condensation which can cause corrosion damage from water creeping unseen under insulation. Only completely sealed Armaflex of the right thickness will protect from intruding water vapor throughout the summer when humidity is high.
I had survey told pipework would need replacing. But optopus will not do this. So be careful you have to have somebody else do work. I had no problem paying for this. But they only want easy installs
Great video. Still think you should go with a Heat Geek Elite survey, utilise open energy monitor to be on the heat pump leaderboard and run the HG Newark heat pump cylinder. I see the appeal in the Cosy 6 and its low cost but designing then running an efficient low temperature system is a lot more interesting.
Online quote for a heat geek elite is £7500 after grant, Octopus is £1300 even with the higher SCOP from HG it would take around 12 years to see that payback in investment by then the heat pump could of been replaced and tech could of moved MUCH further along. I'll likely be fitting open energy monitor to my system anyway as makes it more interesting for my channel and videos. PS am not dismissing what heat geeks do but for a small dwelling like my self and limited heat demand the cost difference is FAR too much
Be interesting seeing a few installs of the cosy 6 before I buy one. I do wonder about the opening for the fan, I assume the fan is still mounted vertically rather than an angle (because that would be really daft, more likely vertical with ducting), but surely rain is going to collect in the opening, on heavy snow days it would become blocked? Although I'm sure it has drain holes and they will have mitigated this it appears to me to be an unnecessary design choice. I think with your particular home there are too many compromises, have you considered a wall mounted split unit like Vaillant aroTHERM split 5kw or 7kw. Pipework much smaller so less issues internally and shorter pipe runs so less heat loss.
Thanks for vblog on survey Nick. Ive got a Daikin through octopus coming beginning of june. What spec Daikin is it your getting? The 6 or the 8kw? Assume the 6 if its cozy (red) 6. Also deliberating on what diverter approach with my solar and 9.5kw battery for water. Thinking of just leaving it out and exporting.
Pity they aren't doing the higher spec cosy models yet. My heat loss is rated at 11kw so well outside the range. 125m sq, 1890s cottage, fully insulated but 9 foot ceilings. Still managed to get an EPC of B though with various countermeasures.
@@NicolasRaimo is the ASHP final is located near the garage? yes i know but factor in the weight in the loft, pipes running up the loft, all pipework can go in the ground Flow & return heating, cold water main and flow return loop on water this could be on a timer. just thinking outside of the box. i have a wood boiler in my garage with 1000l buffer, 40meter run works well for me.
@@NicolasRaimo An air/air system is much cheaper to install, heat your water using immersion heater, coupled with solar thermal. And you get cooling in the summer. Works fine for me.
I’m waiting for it - spoke to Octopus and they are going to contact me when the Cosy 6 is ready. I’ve got my quote on the current pump just to hold my interest on their system
We came up to the cylinder too wide for loft hatch conundrum. Hopefully there's an ashp on the way that can heat water on demand. Even if the running costs go up because there hasto be an additional heating element, it would solve so many problems for our UK homes, where space is often at a premium. Oh and time to prize apart the relationship between gas pricing and electric.
@@NicolasRaimo tease! Seriously, ashp for rads, then ashp with electric boost for taps, showers, baths could just be a simple swap for a combi boiler But good luck getting a grant for it.
@@martinwray7001yes - because storing heat is always going to allow more efficient heating than running very high power heating. Similar space to the boiler…
Hi Nick great video you have giving me lots of positive thoughts on positions of heat pump water cylinder and radiators. I signed up and paid my £500 last December and waiting for the cosy 6 survey. Have you any idea when they are starting installs. Many thanks Dave
Hey David depends where in country you are as engineers need to be trained for cosy6, PS if you haven't signed final contract yet post top of this video we can split £200 between us
I have installed many combi systems so listening to your account of the need for bigger radiators, tank in the loft, insulation and lights in the loft, pipes up the wall ,restrictions on the location of the HP unit, hiding pipes int eh walls and so much more - I have calculated that it will cost you about £18,000 less any grants. For what? What actually does a HP achieve which is more cost effective than a modern combi which can be installed in a day. Because a combi is only costing when it is running - ie for hot water in the summer. and when the house is cold in the winter. Gas is half the price of electricity.
Took octopus 4 days to install mine at a cost of £915 all in, we now have no gas whatsoever and had the meter taken out and it’s so far a lot cheaper, they swapped some radiators, all labour, new water tank, the heat pump, the lot, also it only kicks in when the water drops to a certain temperature just like a gas boiler does. We needed a new boiler cos ours was 10 years old and constantly breaking down so it was a choice of £3k for a new boiler fitted or £915 for a heat pump and I’m so glad I went for the heat pump
Had a British Gas ASHP survey for my 7 year old 4 bed new build. Shocked they came out with £14k on top of the £7k Grant! They proposed 10kw Valliant (fine) but then replacing all 13 radiators (over spec methinks for their ‘warm home promise’ 1 year guarantee).
Try octopus see what they say and compare the 2 on what they spec, you can also snag another £100 off when you split £200 with me on refferal code in pin’d comment
Just got a quote for a heat pump and running costs versus natural gas. Shocked, under the current tariff’s electricity charge would mean I would be worse off by £70 a year on top of the cost of installation, so no saving. I am not with Octopus and this was an independent survey. I am looking at propane bottles vs natural gas, so the gas daily charge of 28.191p and gas meter will go, I have only a combi boiler that needs gas.
@@NicolasRaimo current cost of electricity inhibits mass adoption of heat pumps. It's affordable mostly higher income with some cash to spare and shell out extra for heat pump.
@@bruceleenbs there’s a deal for heat pump customers offering cheap flexible electric, even at standard rates its price parity with gas and my install less than a new combo boiler swap
Hi Nicolas, not sure about the other things but I might have a solution for your additional radiator for your kitchen. I plan to get heat pump in near future(after PV upgrade) and plan to get rid of some of the ugly ad always in a way radiators in kitchen and living room. For kitchen there is a water feed plinth heater. Since your boiler is already there there wouldn’t be much work required for plinth haters(except that you need a weak power source, low voltage power or just. Normal electric connection). Btw ther are some plinth heaters with wireless conectivity to HA and likes! And for he living room there are heating skirting boards to buy. Not sure if this would solve some of your problems but maybe a good idea.
A friend has a one bed end terraced house that needs old electric night storage heaters removing (no gas to property) ..I wonder if this would work or what other choices are there??
Maybe try air2air system th-cam.com/video/ef8dNhiHp-4/w-d-xo.html if he hasn't got a boiler he won't get BUS grant so a2a likely cheaper and easier to install as he won't had rads currently
our quite is nearer 4k from octopus, but we have nowhere for the water cylinder anyway and its pipes and are not having it in the loft. and i am not taking up floors and knocking out bits of walls either. if the government want us to have one they can fully pay...for everything. because i am not paying anything out of my pocket just for what really is a small saving int he grand scheme of things
Daikin's don't seem to be as efficient as Vailant's. I'd be tempted to wait and see what results the Cosy 6 gets or go with British Gas who supply Vailants.
I agree with the comment on Vailant being a better system. However, British Gas phoned me the day before my survey stating some pretty unviable conditions. Despite me having all 22mm and 15mm copper pipework and some under concrete floors they stated that they would replace the entire heating pipework in the house and surface mount wherever there was a concrete floor. Additionally they insisted they needed 1m access width down the side of the property to get the ASHP to the back, while I only have 850mm. The ASHP is only 700mm wide, so maybe their fitters are extra large gents? Sorry to whine, but British Gas let me down with a 'no' the day before the survey, after waiting 5 weeks for them to come.
@@Ben-gm9lo Thanks for the info. I haven't started looking for quotes yet as I still have some upgrades to do but I'd be annoyed with that service too.
Had our survey done a couple of weeks ago. All seemed good, house is a 7 year old new build and heat loss he said was one of the better ones he'd done. System was designed and we spoke about placement for the ASHP outside. With 2 options On coming back to me last week, both installs will require planning permission as 1 is within 1m of the boundary (even though other side of the 6 ft wall is footpath) The other option puts me 0.1db over the 42db permitted development allowance limit. So annoyed right now for the sake of 0.1db if only octopus offered an alternative ashp that was better than 58db at full tilt. Cost for planning will be around £4-500 with no guarantee of passing. So i think we're going to give it a miss. We live in a 4 bed detached on the end of the street with neighbours only to one side, so have a decent size plot to install on. So how the hell are those in semi's and terraced going to be able to get one fitted. Answer - they're not. The mcs20 is a joke and needs serious overhaul. 42db is almost silent Quieter than a fridge freezer. If the government want these things to be the future they need to amend the planning farce.
Good luck with Daikin after service! Good heat pumps when they work. Vaillant are very good with their after service and if you have an issue, plus have a very good deal with OVO for cheap electricity
4:26 my house is 18 in almost every room and 15 at the bedroom. 20 is my comfort up limit during the day, can’t sleep if the bedroom is too warm. Need it to be 16 or colder
Don’t use loft legs they are not great. Get some 2by4 timber and lay on top at 90 degrees to the joists. You might want to sister the joist under the water tank by bolting 2by4 to the side of the joists.
Not sure how far your install has gone, but have you heard of a Sunamp? I believe I read they make an outdoor vertion of thier hot water battery, so this might save you all this extra cost by having the hot water in hte kitchen or outside, and yes they work well with ASHP and they do a 250L vertion as well.
The rules and regulations for getting anything done in the UK are astonishing, If it’s not no you can’t do that or that, it’s jumping through hoop after hoop .
Great video. Really interesting. Have you seen the Dutch 'chimney' heat pumps? No idea if they are available over here but they might be a good solution for you. We are almost a year into our heat pump installation and really enjoying the system!
I’ve seen Bosch chimney Hp not a big fan of its look to be honest makes sense for a new build but I think structural support for mine be an issue plus I got solar panels on roof
I'm currently in the process, at the GO/NO-GO decision point - for a proposed date of MARCH 2025 Similarly sounding journey, largely, but with a slight wrinkle that for reasons I don't really understand Octopus appear to be "stalling" giving me a revised statement of works - I've had 2 re-reviews due to various questions raised on the original, and subsequent survey.
If you did have surface mount pipes for the rad and tank so no extra work was the quote similar to what you were originally given? I was quoted £8,000 so £500 for me to pay after the grant. My house is pretty new, 6 years old, and I do have space for a hot water tank on the first floor as I already have a hot water storage tank. But I'm worried the price is just a bait and switch affair.
Octopus ain’t bait and switch if you had survey that’s the price! They normally quote price after grant thou so check also remember my code will get you another £100 off evnick.com/energy
Octopus don't bait and switch! cough use my code your get another £100 off making it £400 total!!! evnick.com/energy for heat pump code also BEAR IN MIND octopus normally quote price AFTER grant just check
That sounds like a lot of issues to address. Have you considered a Tepeo ZEB boiler. Same flow temperature in the radiators as your gas boiler. No need to change any radiators.
Yes it is an electric boiler. You need to compare total cost of both options. Just add a few more solar panels to compensate for the electricity costs. In addition with Intelligent Octopus Go I'm getting 11.5hrs @ 7.5p/KWh. Just a thought.
@@jonathangoss396using electricity for heating and hot water in a typical house is absurdly expensive. You would have to be mad unless you have an extremely small or well insulated house.
Hi Nick. A very interesting video as usual! I had an online quote from Octopus yesterday, so your video is very timely. I've got micropore to many of my radiators from a manifold under a bedroom floor. Even though the Cosy 6 will work with my setup, I think it has to run hotter to counteract the microbore. That means the efficiency (SCOP) will be less, so the running costs of the system will be more expensive than the gas boiler system is. I think this means that I'll have to have new pipework. Is that something Octopus will do (as an extra cost) or would I need to get that done before the install? Also, you said the Harvi is a solar diverter, but it isn't. The Harvi is a hub. The solar diverter is the Eddi (I know because I've got one!). Anyway, thanks for another really interesting video Nick
Hi Phil octopus designed for 50c flow for all systems when the outside temp is -2.3c for my area it’s likely I’ll be able to dial this down but this flow temp is 1p more than gas but gas is 90% efficiency so it’s price parity maybe cheaper that’s run at 28.5p peak rates for intelligent if you used octopus off peak rate as well it’s well under gas! Cost6 doesn’t need to run hot it’s just able to but for micro of 10mm it’s fine. Another video is due with this info
i just had my octopus install they broght a cosy six the engineer fortunately realise i have to have the daiken as the csoy six uses propan and it was being installed outside a bedroom which is dangerous so delay whilstthe daiken turned up
Think I'll stick with a boiler for now. Maybe if I get solar and a few batteries, I'll get an electric boiler, but I'll not be getting a heatpump. There is way too many pipes and stuff involved I have no space for the tank in my house, I would need to build a lean too nevt to the house and that's just extra work that I couldn't justify.
I was quite keen to have a heat pump however with 8mm microbore pipes these would need replacing at a cost of £2500 so it’s a non starter for me unfortunately
Hopefully a solution for you might be possible some other heat pump installers can likely do it with different system designs even now depending on heat loss
I placed a £500 deposit with Octopus way back in October 2023 for a solar/battery install and a heat pump...the survey for the Solar was eventually done 26th April, the Heatpump 4th March....I'm still awaiting their quotes to arrive, so I wouldn't hold your breath for your quote arriving within a week Nick! I too have a new build, very new, we moved-in Nov 23, so super insulated, ideal for a heatpump. I have had quotes fom other companies... a local one quoted £3300 for a vaillant, British gas quoted £ 628 for a Dakin. Like yourself Nick, im particularly interested in the Cosy 6, but it looks to be a way off yet, so I am in a quandry whether to just go ahead with the heatpump from BG or wait for the cosy 6 in the hope that it will be installed before tnext winter. The added complecation is that I intended for the storage battery to be installed in the garage where my gas boiler is, so i'd need the heat pump installed before the solar. I have subscribed to your channel, so im looking forward to the update video about your Octopus enquiry.
Got the final heat pump survey and final sales contract 7 days after the heat loss servery all signed and awaiting for the cosy6 video on the final results coming soon! PS if you haven't signed final contact yet you can use my referral code if you want me to give octopus a nudge on getting final contract drop me an email
I previously read that the UK and regional parliaments intend to gradually equalize the unit price between electricity and gas over the coming years. It was buried in one their respective buildings heat strategy documents from a few years ago and I don't think this has changed.
this been a long term plan since the war started and the energy price madness started, currently we use gas to generate some electricity this inflates the cost of electricity to be very expensive, what we will see is this unlinked from electric wholesale costs and wind/solar used as the price factor instead.
Hiding pipes in a wall. I say OUCHHH!!! to that. I always box in, make little hinged flaps over anything of interest, and have one side of the covering easily removable. Burying things in the walls sounds all well and good until a wet patch suddenly appears. Now is it leaking at that point (cut away the plaster board)? nope it is travelling along a pipe from elsewhere. Then you are cutting away plasterboard all over the place which needs replacing and replastering. Also put markers at the ceiling end and floor end exactly where the hidden pipes are so you can use a laser line to know where not to cut. Cutting in with a vibrating blade is just asking for a pipe to be nicked and you end up with a full blown flood. Plastic pipes are chosen for low cost and speed at the cost of lower durability. Not good long term. Copper at 22mm is smaller than usually used for baths or tanks which is 28 or 32mm. If your buried pipes are 22mm and you discover it should have been 28mm are you going to live with inefficiency or rip the walls out? IMHO covering up is always a mistake.
You might want to be aware that 21°c is above the recommended temperature for a baby's bedroom. 16°c - 20°c is recommended by either the WHO or the NHS cant remember which.
Tempting. I would miss my gas hob though. Much cheaper and more controllable than electric and when discussing replacement of gas boilers with heat pumps no one seems to mention this fact 🤔
Replaced my gas hob with induction, fastest boiling of water ever full pan from tap to boil in 120 secounds! Easier to clean, safer worktop for my kids as surface parts don’t get as warm as heat does direct to pan. And best of all my co2 and air quality vastly improved in home remember a boiler flue is outside and your hob has no flue
As a plumber and heat pump installer, I'm surprised that you are surprised that extra work costs extra money. Also, I've never seen octopus to do a £800 heat pump install (as advertised) for £800.
Heaven forbid you want something done properly and to a decent standard (pipes not running up the outside of a wall). Even worse if you have a request that's not "standard". I'd recommend looking into Aria as a comparison.
I'm happy with my heat pump, but to be honest, the surveyers are misleading about what the tank will look and the size. If you get a survey or look online for official pictures, you will get a sense it's just a tank with a few pipes out of it - which of course it is not. I've got the space for this but I think it's going to be deal killer for many because the kitchen is the only suitable space.
Build up from hard water in if have hard water, minerals in the water or you must have a filter for your system anyway I live in the united states'of America Modesto CALIFORNIA
As well as your central thermostat , You will usually have thermostatic rad valves fitted , so you can adjust down the design temps for individual rooms if they are too warm. Easy ...
I've given up getting a heat pump. 1930s semi-detached, but Octopus who are by far the cheapest installer, especially with current 20% off, won't do as it's difficult to site the heat pump without planning, and the pipe run to anywhere with a tall cylinder is too long. They won't entertain having a Heat Geek ministore in the insulated space I have under the house. Too inflexible to get cheaper. Too expensive to get a Heat Geek. Stuck with a 20+ year old combi that I will be forced to change to another combi.
BTW, Octopus survey guy was here all of 5m. No solutions, no suggestions, no even suggesting another company or anything. It's all because I have a 1.8m tall balcony with steps down from the back of our house which is the only central place away from neighbours where a heat pump could be sited, and the lack of cylinder options. I even said I'd pay to get a Heat Geek ministore installed but he had no clue what that was all about. Heat Geeks will be too expensive for me.
I think I will stick to my Combi boiler, hot water on-demand and piping hot radiators had my hot water tank taken out 25 years ago and don't want another thanks, I will make sure I have another before the ban and that should see me out
Why? Because you can’t conceive of the benefits of planning? Who cares what temperature their radiators are - surely it’s the room temperature you care about?
@Aretec is it will 1920? A modern cylinder loses virtually nothing. Once you factor in instant hot water is by far the least efficient way to heat water you're paying more, for worse performance.
Not an Octopus Customer join and split £100 with me evnick.com/energy Getting a heat pump SPLIT £200 with me and get £100 off your install use my unique referral code: 87680
Sorry Nick did you mean an Eddi, energy diverter, the Harvi is the wireless ct device
@@AndrewBrownEngTechTMIET I did indeed slip of tongue
I am.
I wish I wasn't.
Just had a octopus daikin 6kw ASHP installed 3 weeks ago. New build with plastic micro bore. They replaced 6 rads & 3 towel rails, upgraded from single to double panels. 300 L water tank & volumizer for defrost cycles. Works really well & I had loads of fear about micro bore, very hot water & heating the house nicely on cold days. Quiet in operation & cost us less than £2k after bus grant. Usual very good service from Octopus, would highly recommend to anyone considering it
Just had the same at our house, cost £915 all in, they even swapped some of the pipes.
Hi can I ask what initial quotes were? No survey yet but they gave an initial quote for 4200 after grant for a 3 bed semi. Both yours sound very good prices
Initial quote was £9700,, so came to £2,200, but dropped again to £1950 due to Daikin £250 discount. 9 radiators replaced, none of interior piping was changed. Ours was a relatively straightforward job, took the 4 days to commission
@@beverleyhughes7863quoted me £915 (that with the BUS taken off) 3 radiators replaced and some pipe work in a 3 bed semi that’s 10 years old.
Some people I’ve spoken to have got it all done for £500!
Just booked an Octopus survey, timing of your video could not have been better. Thanks for putting this out!
Pleasure there’s a code to split £200 with me pin’d at top
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I have had similar "ugly" comments re my solar panels.. to me they all look beautiful, much better than gas boilers and generating power plants 😊
yep an acidic boiler steam plume isn't good.
The thought of all that free sustainable energy makes me smile every time!
I love my solar panels. A couple of my neighbours said they were ugly but I dont care.
Even today, an overcast 'summers' morning, having coffee. The energy meter says I'm pushing a couple hundred Watts back into the grid and the base load appliances are all running for free.
Really interesting. What this really highlights is the insanity of still allowing new homes to be built without heat pumps (and solar PV)
And the double insanity of allowing new houses to be built that have tiny microbore piping, making it extremely difficult to upgrade to heat pumps.
@@bjorn2625 great point
Also that the heat pump replacement scheme only applies if you have a boiler that is replaced. Logical the subsidy should cover new builds rather than just replacement
As a former PV installer seeing new builds with 2 panel in roof systems is just sad. What a cost cut minimum effort, well done developers.
@@waynecartwright7276 Amen. The developer should be required to provide enough PV to generate most of the annual energy requirements for both powering and heating the property
Thanks for sharing Nicolas. Enjoyable to watch, we are going through the same process trying to replace a combi with an ASHP, so good viewing. Liked and subscribed.
It was probably a slip of the tongue, but you mentioned a Harvi as a solar diverter (24:40) which is actually the Myenergi Eddi. The Harvi is their wifi hub that wirelessly links the Myenergi devices. I suspect a slip of the tongue as the video slider says Eddi for that section.
Not sure if you have experienced the Heatpunk website yet. For those of a more technical bent, this is a free online survey tool that allows you do conduct your own house measurements and input them into the Heatpunk website to produce your own survey report and ASHP recommendation. You can play with room temps, air changes per hour, flow temps, etc. Most won't care to undertake this effort, but for some of us it is of value to have a ball park to compare with when the installer survey comes in. This might be something worth mentioning in your next video?
Hi, I have only just seen your video. I am a retired heating engineer: First, I suggest you get a heating company in your area that has a good reputation to give you an estimate. If they are good they will come up with lots of ideas. 2 Don’t be swayed to put it near the path or highway, it is likely to get stolen, vandalised, graffiti or sticks poked into the fan, etc. 3 Wherever you put it, make sure you can run the condense water somewhere, the condense from HPs is greater than a condensing boiler. 4 watch out for wind direction, if it blows toward the fan it will affect the performance. Hot water cylinder can be a problem, but check with other Manufacturers’ you could perhaps get one smaller with an extra large coil inside, (which HP cylinders do have anyway) that would be smaller in the loft. (make sure you place it over a wall underneath, to help take the weight, just think of 1 litre = 1 kg good enough for the weight calculation + weight of the cylinder itself). I could go on, but I’ll stop there.
😊
Worth considering if its put outside of the wall, it could accidentally get damaged by kids playing or god forbid vandalised, incurring considerable costs further down the line. We made some compromises when choosing a place for ours. Originally wanted it on a first floor flat roof but they said no. Another location exceeded the primary pipework limit (10m I think) from unit to tank. So we put it in front of the kitchen (No windows) minimised interference with the space of the garden and no planning permissions needed etc and very importantly it's safe! We're happy with it and it performs really well. 11kw Daikin monobloc (silver/black grill) on average insulated, 6 bed semi.
Yep, 10 meters max for the Daikin
with the amount of anti heatpump idiots around these days, i think vandalism is a real possibility
Could have gone on flat roof. Octopus just don't want to get the ladders out. Yes it's more difficult for them but plenty of heat pumps get installed on roofs with the appropriate mounting kit.
1:48 "Instead of using hydrocarbons it uses propane gas" Propane has the chemical formula C3H8. It's LITERALLY a hydrocarbon! 😉
I think he meant propane is a better refrigerant than the hydrofluorocarbon (HFC) type refrigerants it replaces.
@@RayCottam Indeed, it wasn't well phrased and I got the point just that i'm being the pedant of the day ;)
Came down here just to find this comment!
Not nearly as bad as the information on the Octopus website ... "A heat pump can last 20 years - up to twice as long as a gas boiler." 😂
Lots of excellent helpful detail there Nicolas. Great for understanding and avoiding potential pitfalls 👍
You have highlighted some of the issues that I face with respect to the installation of an ASHP in my property. It will be interesting see what Octopus come up with and what you decide to do so I look forward to your future videos.
Crazy to take out a combi boiler for this heat pump rigmarole!! You might save £200 a year but it’s costly to install and costly to maintain! Net zero insanity
What’s costly to maintain? Total
Install was £1350 cheaper than next door paid for combi swap
It's like EVs & solar panels, where small numbers of early adopters got hugely subsidised by the rest of us, which in the case of a ASHP involves a grant of £7500. But like EVs, when something big goes wrong, then it'll likely cost a small fortune to replace. The future will be a place where only virtue signalling better off types will be able to afford to run a car & decent heating.
@ you started off going right and then rubbish… subsidies start to help build demand and drop prices solar is hugely cheaper to buy, EVs dropped from being 80k to 15k new and heat pumps be same
@@NicolasRaimo - Cobblers, there's no comparison between an 80k Tesla & a 15k Dacia EV. And AC Units & fridges have been around for many decades, which are basically ASHPs in reverse.
@ they are simlair but scales of them are different it’s also the labour force, before the grant people doing ASHP were small niche firms making huge profit margins
Very interesting with detail. It brought it all back for me - deciding where everything goes. The work you might be expected to do yourself is easily presumed to be something the installer will do so it's vital to go through things in detail and be ready on the day. Things like, a foundation and soak away for the heat pump, platform for the tank and access etc. I have heard of people fitting larger loft hatches or temporarily removing part of a ceiling.
My loft hatch was large enough to get a 300 litre tank in and onto it's side but tilting it upright between roof rafters and supports onto its platform was a job and a half. It's platform bridges over two close solid brick walls so no structural issues at least.
I had already boarded over much of my loft insulation and fitted a better light.
You want to keep pipe run lengths to a minimum as much as possible to minimise heat loss and pressure drop from resistance. You ideally want to tee into the middle of your 22mm (probably where the boiler did) but so each flow and return 28mm split tees into two 22mm fanning out either way so the cross section surface area gets bigger. You don't want to neck down to 22mm and then fan out in 22mm like the boiler did. Heat pumps need a higher flow rate than a boiler to get the same kW output at a lower flow and return Δt of 5°C as opposed to a boiler's Δt of 11°C. So you don't want bottle necks.
Have they mentioned a low loss header or buffer tank? Ideally you don't need one but they are often used with a secondary pump to make up for inadequacies in flow to ensure the heat pump can operate at Δt5° so it doesn't throw a flow rate error when the radiators can only manage Δt 8° or something because of flow restrictions. The two flow loops are hydraulically separated but mix in the buffer as required. Some heat pump manufacturers insist on low loss headers to avoid heat pump call outs but if the pipework is designed correctly you won't actually need one. I have one but the flow from the heat pump exits to the radiators at the same temperature and the same for the radiator return back to the heat pump. If my radiator loop was restrictive I'd see a differential temperature across the header which leads to inefficiency as you'll need a higher flow temperature from the heat pump to make up for the lower flow through the radiator loop. This "distortion" is best avoided.
The less flow restrictions and the greater surface surface area of radiators the better as you can lower the flow temperature of the heat pump. Just because it can do a high temperature flow doesn't mean you should operate it like this. More input energy is required and that's what costs. Better to shift the same kW of free heat energy from the air at a lower temperature and higher flow rate requiring less input energy.
Try and keep all your pipe runs in the heated envelope of the house to minimise loss. So under the loft insulation and all lagged. Pipes buried in walls etc may be a source of heat loss.
I keep internal doors open and the whole house at the same temperature with the system permanently running. Zoning was more of a thing for boilers. Heat pumps are best working with all radiators fully on for the lowest flow temperature. If you switch off radiators it won't run as efficiently as it will tend to short cycle. It's a different mindset compared to boilers and the weirdest thing is having the radiators at body temperature of 37°C so they feel like a person and yet the house is warm in winter. It's a bit like having a house full of people to keep you warm.
You are right about the Eddi solar diverter. It's much better to export the solar surplus these days with the more generous export rates. If you heat your water at night at cheap rate tariff you instantly have at least a two to one advantage in rates with an immersion heater and with a heat pump doing the heating more like a six to one advantage. The Eddi can still be of use to do the Legionella cycle and extra tank temperature monitoring.
One other consideration for a public footpath facing heat pump is the defrost cycle making clouds of water vapour on a frosty morning. They might think your purple bin' s on fire 😉
timely video there Nick,i was only on the phone to Octopus today about a unrelated matter and i asked them to email me a link for heatpumps, like you i have no hot water tank, but there was one that was removed when the combi was installed 20+ years ago, however the "cowboys" that installed the combi used micro bore pipes and channelled them into the solid stone walls (2ft 6inch thick), if i do get a heat pump i will run fresh 15mm pipe surface mounted/under floorboards, luckily i have space for a hot water tank in the cupboard that currently houses the combi boiler, ps my house was built circa 1800's so the majority is solid stone walls excepting the 2 extensions 1 side 2 storey(circa 1988) and the rear single storey extension (circa 2016), keep us posted on develpments :) :)
If you do go for a heat pump from octopus theres a Pin'd comment at top to knock another £100 off if it helps. What size microbore pipes did they put in 8mm or 10mm?
Thanks for the video. I spoke to them about a year ago and at the time I was told they couldn't put the buffer tank in the loft, so interesting to hear that it can now be done. They were also not too happy about the vermiculate loft insulation I had under the extra mineral wool layer (due to possible asbestos contamination).
I got an ASHP earlier this year, quotes from Dec 23 and I have the standard Daikin one and needed a storage heater. Works fine from my POV but with a relatively mild winter not easy to say if saves. However what I know is combined with agile that it works well from my POV and no reliance on gas and those who supply it.
Thanks for sharing
should add with the 7.5K grant it cost me 6K extra but was a 5 day fit as not easy location for a lot of the kit.
It's a good shout on the radiators, I assumed my house would be copper pipe and tapped off which does help with the presumed problem - though I haven't lifted my floorboards yet, the signs are good. Loft hatches between the rafters - good old new builds, mine is like that, you only get just under 600mm to play with in new builds, you can make them longer but not wider without pretty serious complications. NGL I'm not personally a fan of tanks (and really any infrastructure, particularly water-containing infrastructure) in my loft. Yeah, you'll probably never have a problem with it, but when you do the problems tend to be relatively quite serious - and you have to get the heat up there to start with which is relatively lossy. I'm holding off on heat pumps on two basis - firstly that if permitted development rights allow larger volume units there might be a flood of new products that are more efficient (larger volume = larger heat exchanger = more efficient). Secondly, exhaust air heat pumps really appeal to me because my new build is super efficient, and I want to take heat that gathers at the top of my (3-story) house and put it back in at the ground floor and tap it off excess, plus the ventilation. With an EAHP I might be able to tear out my radiators entirely and not have to worry about the pipework nonsense. Both of those markets are going to take time to develop, and I think I'm going to wait for that. On tanks - I have a huge space under my stairs that only has an ironing board and my server rack that could easily be used for a water tank, somebody should really make a wedge-shaped one that could go there.. In re putting a heat pump unit next to the pavement like that, I honestly don't think I would want it where people could vandalise it as they walk past anyway, people be people, doesn't matter how nice the area is.
Wedge shaped tank would be a really interesting concept.
Informative video but I had nothing but trouble with my Octopus survey, paid my £500 deposit and the first appointment they did not turn up, when they arrived on the second appointment, I had two surveyors one training the other. They were at my property for four hours and it all went well Octopus needed to install three radiators heat pump to the front of the house with external pipes going up to the loft and into my airing cupboard to the new tank. A week later I got an email to say they needed to do another survey and when the surveyor arrived, he said straight away sorry but as you have a room in the loft the pipes from the heat pump cannot be covered.
So, no heat pump install, it took me 5 months to get my £500 deposit back and that was only by going to the energy ombudsman, we did get £200 compensation from Octopus in the end but the communication from them was awful.
I installed a heat pump and much larger radiators but I kept all of my original, 32 year old 8mm copper microbore circuit, and it works very well indeed. It just needs a dedicated pumped secondary circuit, connected to the primary via a low loss header. It would be a shame if Octopus refused to consider that.
Why would anyone in their right mind, replace gas heating with electric.
Electricity is approximately four times the cost of gas at the moment. This variance will increase as more and more GREEN subsidies are loaded onto electricity costs.
I don’t profess to be good at maths, but using this case as an example, a new gas boiler (which wasn’t required, new build) circa£1000, the above system, £3500. How many years will it take to recover the costs of changing? Absolute insanity, the world is becoming unhinged.
Gas boiler combi replacement is £2500. Heat Pump install was £1350.
Gas boiler is 0.9 COP "90% efficient"
Heat Pump is between 3-5 COP so 300% to 500% efficient
This means a heat pump installed with a cop of around 3.5cop will be same price as a boiler on STANARD electrical deal however when paired with heat pump energy deals or other inventive energy deals the electric price is MUCH cheaper I pay 7p for example between 23:30-5:30 If I heat my water or prewarm the home during these times I get that heat for around 2p a kwh of energy your gas boiler can't match a heat pump
@ Where can anyone obtain a heat pump for £1350? (assuming this cost is for supply and fit) Labour alone would account for most of that cost, assuming approximately four man days.
There is absolutely no point in having a sensible exchange of comments whilst dealing with fantasy numbers.
In addition, I accept hot water can be heated during off peak, but ‘pre warming’ the house, another fantasy justification.
All the electricity deals offering lower off peak charges have higher day time charges? Hence, if a top up of warmth and hot water is required, the night savings are wiped.
It’s your hard earned money, you are free to spend it however you wish. If heat pumps are that good, why is the Government throwing money at it? It should be no brainer.
@@PaulWhittle-g9c So it could be EVEN LESS price is FROM £500 depends on home type etc... go to EVnick.com/energy and follow info for octopus energy heat pump quote use my code if you order and your get another £100 off price.
Heat pumps work low and slow, so I preheat water and start to preheat the home during the offpeak hours but even using peak electric its same price as gas but my average with offpeak means is LESS THAN gas
I agree, my boiler is on the way out and I've been looking into heat pumps and i just don't see the savings.
Efficiency numbers are irrelevant, cost per year is only relevance. I can't see any savings per year to a gas boiler.
The mechanics of a heat pump appear complex creating a huge liability. Also like you say in this case, they would have had a perfectly good boiler which effectively is part of the house price when you buy it, so they have probably lost over 1k before the actual install.
@ Gas boiler was on a £35 a month insurnace plan becuase of its age so £420 a year this comes with an 8 year warranty so that saving ALONE means 3 years its covered install cost.
My Savings on heat pump are MUCH higher than typical customers as I have solar and battery However even for regular non solar or battery customers there is savings and a better more evenly heated home. Rather than my home having cold spots and only being warm when am in, its always no less than 18c (my choice could go down to 17c) but when am in my lounge sits between 21-22c (again my choice) this more evenly heated home cost less to run than my gas boiler did which always got my lounge to 21c but struggled to raise most the home above 19c and dropped as low as 13c in colder spells. If you got a heat pump and got the worst effeincy form ocotpus which is set at 320% you'd still save money and if you combine it with there electric deal for heat pumps its EVEN better
Not pleased with Octopus at present - Got an initial quote which was great and then had to delay slightly to get an EPC done - Came back with an EPC rating of B which is great - However, I've since had no reply to several emails from my Octopus consultant and they never called me on a scheduled call, so I'm now in limbo with no idea how to progress - Thanks Octopus!
drop me a message via my website lets see if we can nudge it along for you!
I ran pipes inside a stud wall by cutting out plasterboard where the noggins were, notching the noggins, then putting back the cut out plasterboard & filling - pipes fed in from the roof space.
See install video basicly what I did
I would be bloody annoyed if as the neighbour I had to have your heat pump closer to my bedrooms than it was to yours regardless of the dB which can change over time 😀
So your be equally annoyed by a gas boiler in the same location?
My heat pump is close to my bedroom window and I can’t hear it, it’s nearly silent.
@@JM1919MJ "I can’t hear it, it’s nearly silent" ... 😂
@@farab4391 yeah, I can’t hear it from my bedroom but when I’m next to the heat pump you can just hear it a little bit? I don’t get what your point is 🤷♂️
@@farab4391 judging by your other comments on this video you seem to have a weird vendetta against heat pumps, if your happy with your 25 year old gas boiler in your garage and you’re not getting a heat pump then why are you on here having a moan about them? Bit strange don’t you think?
The whole thing sounds horrendous. Like myself, many people, in the past, opted for a combi boiler and had the loft tanks removed and the hot water cylinder and all associated pipework taken away and, in some cases used those locations for different purposes. If I get a heat pump, where on earth would I put that big ass ugly cylinder plus the outdoor unit? Then there'd be all the floorboard lifting, the ceiling disruption, additional insulation and possible radiator renewal/relocation required. Finally the cost of the whole thing. Not for me I'm afraid. I'll stick with the combi for as long as they allow me.
Having two sets of contractors can be a nightmare, "Sorry mate, that's a bodge job mess, short ends, can't connect that up."
Thanks for video, interesting points but i woukd never assume all those personal preferences wouod be done for free! I mean kitting out yr loft, you really expect that done for free? And chasing in pipes.. you seem a finicky customer which is fair enough but i sont see how you would expect all these labour intensive options are done for free, we alk need to make a living you know! Aside from that, i had a vaillant ashp fitted by B Gas, new pipes, new rads, all surface boxed in and very neat. Works well and very efficient, well pleased and an interest free monthly payment of £140.
Hey Mike, I didn't expect them to broad my loft out for free but I also didn't expect to broad out my loft am more raising awareness this might need to be done. Regarding chasing pipes many installs will include this it would of been nice for octopus to offer a PAID option for them to do it rather than my self again I get octopus quote is to hit a target price but sometimes options are nice.
@@NicolasRaimo ANY work in loft really requires boarding, even TV or sky fitter would request this.. anyway it's good to do, think of all the storage space plus extra insulation..
Propane? Is this sealed in the system or does it need a constant supply?
Sealed system
This video has put me off getting a heat pump even more than now. The complexity and cost for my place would be ridiculous.
I really wanted one, but it's impossible.
Loks like 80:s tec.
Modern heat pumps in sweden is one 60x60 cm indoor module 2m high, like a fridge. plus one outdoormodule.
Compact and everything included.
Thanks for making this video Nick. I'm about to have renovations done to my large bungalow. I'm considering a heat pump, would like underfloor heating if possible. I'll be watching your progress.
Thanks for being honest about the extra costs involved regarding hp quotes.
I’ll be documenting the whole thing on here, so far I’ve been very impressed with octopus service
To be fair to Octopus, they are producing a minimum cost product with the aim of having the maximum number of installs. Greg Jackson (Octopus CEO) is working very hard to make ASHP adoption as palitable as possible. The installation of these systems is so user-specific that you can understand why their budget quotes don't cover many additions that some installs might require.
Octopus just fitted mine, all in £915
What about the extra room you have to have to fit all the components in?
you mean the loft.....
@@NicolasRaimo no I mean the room to house all the workings. I was trying to get my wife interested in a heat pump on the baxi stand at electric show. she says we going backwards when she's got a combi boiler that goes in a little cupboard.
@@nickosullivan5456 you mean flow temperature? Why does that matter if house is warm
@@NicolasRaimo no I mean you need a small room for everything to go in. I'm not explaining it very well
@@nickosullivan5456 Do you mean a plant room? The Daikin and Cosy6 will be monobloc designs so most of the workings are in the external unit. Any expansion vessels, buffer tank and hot water cylinder will be in the loft. Nick will get an additional empty kitchen cupboard in the process - the one housing the boiler.
According to the installation manual, the primary from the Daikin HP to the cylinder max length is 10 meters. You have plenty of room at the back of the house for the pump? I don't understand why Octopus offers solar diverters why would you want to heat via the immersion at an efficiency of 1 when I can use the heat pump & solar to heat the water at an efficiency of >2 allowing you to export more leccy or run more appliances from solar than you would using the diverter immersion heater. I must be missing something regarding the solar diverter
Sorry Nick but high temperature heat pumps are not something you want. You get high performance at low temperatures, and although refrigerants like propane can go high. If you like money, you don't want them to have to.
Propane is still a hydrocarbon too, a naturally occurring one at that.
Hey Lewis as mentioned it CAN go high but they won't be running it past 55c design flow
I concur with your comment on efficiency, but Octopus is priced to maximise market uptake, not produce efficient systems. As you say, propane is a hydcrocarbon, but here it is just the R290 'refrigerant' used in the ASHP. It isn't used up, it just recirculates. Even in the event of a system leak there is only around 1kg in it and propane is many orders of magnitude less damaging to the environment (CO2 equiivalent) bthan the previous refrigerant (R32). This is worlds away from actually burning the stuff to produce heat.
add a light on your on connected with an extension cable and a switch - lot cheaper and should work.
I still wonder what amount you end up with cause here in germany we changed our attitude too and add aditionally to the oil central heating a heatpump that is sg ready which stands for surplus energy from the roof.
And we start simply by adding or replacing the heatpump first and then look afterwards which radiators have to be replaced .
this way you will get what you really need and we get a 12 kW mono block heatpump based on propan with wlan and home assistand integration fro just 2400€ without subsidies and 500€ for installation, so about 2700 GBP incl vat
If I want subsidies I have to do more paperwork and so on and would endup around 1600 € or 1400 GBP
We have here a lot of german and european heatpump vendors but a lot are also getting chinese heatpumps and theses also have energy labels and are on a qualification list for subsidies which means they have to show a cop of 3 or higher. Our choice has a COP of 3,15 and a SCOP of 3,75 where the SCOP is the only one that matters cause it is based on an average year and average home so that these figures are comparable across al manufacturers. Therefore a lot of manufacturers will try to hide the SCOP and advertise with all the COP for a7 or a10 and 35 °C output, not the usual radiator of 55°C we are used with oil and gas central heatings.
World best heatpump achieves 4,5 SCOP and ours is just 3,75 which means we will need 20% more energy but we do not care cause our kWh price is 28 cent, off peak is 20 cent and 8 cent our money we get for feeding, so about 15 cent by average during heating period.
If we use 3000 kWh with the world best heatpump then we could expect and to use 600 kWh more which would meand 75€ a year or 60 GBP.
Does not make sense to pay 12500€ or more for the worlds best heatpump if I can save 10.000 by this 1 decision only if you can save just 75€ .
Not even 100€ or 200€ would ever pay back in lifetime . If the cheap chinese would run just 5 years we could easily bug a new one.
And chinese are not sstupid, cause they learned their lesson and only got the quite expensive EU homologation cause they are ready to deliver spare parts and even manual for use and an installation manual each over 100 pages long. AND they learned that panasonic builds the best compressors and danfoss the controls therefore they are using these important parts from major brands.
I can only suggest to look twice and do all the stuff on your own cause you can not loose much assuming your are not living on the islands up in the norths like scapa flow or so where it is colder. We have installed that in a house built in 1970 with 200 m² of space and about 180 m² heated with a 25 kWp solar power roof and a 15 kWh battery. We also added a water heat pump to increase efficiency with a heat exchanger or coil from Atlantic made in france which was even more expensive than the whole heatpump (paid 2100€)
Here in germany octopus would have no chance with such expensive offers even though they have also entered the german energy market and battling with tibber from norway. Right now they are not succeeding cause only a few know Octopus from the UK, but who knows if they can lower the prices things might change, but no one would trust a british company to do all the jobs in their home by hiring subcontractors for cheap cause we have already many complaints from a similiar business where the home owner can rent a solar power system on his roof and will own that after 20 years or so where the cost will end up in twice the price or by hding costs for an ev wallbox. They get it for free for 2 years and will pay just 35€ for such charger - each month. 7500€ for a wallbox in total - and I doubt that it would even last 10 years, most die after 6 year of usage.
So what if you do already have a water tank? Presumably they have to take that out before putting the new one in… and therefore what happens water-wise in the interim?
If the tank is modern they may not need to change it… if they do it should be a same day change…
@@NicolasRaimothanks… I suspect it will need changing.
@@diddybopper2052 if it’s an old tank then yes it may be your without water a day or so for hot but your still have cold feed just have to shower day of install
I had a survey but due to the house size and no space a new heat pump is not suitable.
I decided have a new boiler and increase efficiency of the property to reduce gas usage.
I reckon we'd be in the same situation. We just wear more clothes.
Quoted 6k after 7.5k grant 😮 not realistic for most people
We had our survey recently too the paper work arrived Friday, let me know if you want to compare notes.
The biggest standout for me was the design flow temperature of 50C targeting a SCoP is 3.34 (334%). Reducing the flow temperature like 40C could result in a higher SCoP (4.04) but might require additional radiator changes. The proposed hot water cylinder is also steel rather than copper
If you not signed final paperwork yet you can add my refferal code to get £200 split with me giving an extra £100 off if that helps
This is the downside to Octopus quotes. They are budget focussed to get ASHP installs more widely adopted. This unfortunately also means they are not the highest performance systems available. However, the installation cost is so low that you are hard pushed to get a high quality intall (like a Heat Geek Elite system) to be justifiable. The savings of a SCOP 4 - SCOP 5 system over a SCOP 3.3 system would take many years to recoup. From an environmental point of view, getting homes on a SCOP 3.3 system from a gas boiler are a massive step and you can see where Octopus are putting their energy.
@@NicolasRaimo referral code applied. 👍
Question I have about it is… can I control the flow temperature on the heat pump like I can control the gas boiler? We run our gas boiler at around 42c. We’re awaiting an octopus survey in a couple weeks
@@NicolasRaimoheat pump install completed, the referral payment should be coming through to you in the next few days. Thanks again
I'm interested in the cosy fan being on an angle as most heatpump noise issues usually happen when the unit isn't upright with a wonky base causing noise 🤷♂️
Has the cosy got extra special bearings 🤔
that be because the fan is mounted to be at that angle rather than on an angle if this fan is mounted to be at this tilt it be fine as long as the base of the unit is level
@@NicolasRaimo Not convinced... I need a scientist to explain the forces involved and proven longevity of this angled fan malarkey 🤷♂️
Waiting for my Octopus Survey ATM. Actually pleasantly surprised by the extras. I was expecting I may need to pay extra even for surface pipes from existing boiler location to the new location. Im the opposite with boiler in loft and new location downstairs. Only hope they have white ducting by the time they get to me
Great video, I'm right at the start of my journey with Octopus and solar/heat pumps, thought that it might be better to get solar panels first to offset the difference between electric/gas prices but much more expensive to get panels so maybe better to get a great pump first since it would be on par with gas due to COP 4 anyway and we don't know how long the subsidy will last however the option you mentioned to have the pump connected to solar makes me wonder if this could be done retrospectively if I got a heat pump and then solar later? 🤯 such a lot to think about and juggle, really grateful for these videos.
Don't forget you can add my referral link to save another £100 off your octopus quote!
Instead of installing a Domestic Hot Water Storage (with all related problems) you could install a Hybrid System (Wall-hung Gas boiler + Air to water Heat Pump). In this case the Gas Boiler will produce domestic hot water instantaneously (so the gas boiler will start only when a hot water demand is generated by opening a tap) while the Heat Pump will be used for heating the rooms. In addition the Gas Boiler can also be activated to support Heat Pump when outdoor temperature is very cold or to speed up the room warming up. This will semplify the installation and reduce the total cost of it. What do you think abput?
With regards to the boarding of the loft. Bear in mind, a walkway will have to be left in place for an engineer to service the cylinder annually.
This is interesting to keep in mind, heat pump system services might cost more than gas boiler systems. Does it require a more involved service than a hot water tank that's part of a gas boiler system? Whenever I have a service done, they only do the gas boiler and gas fire, are they supposed to also check the hot water tank? Mine's never been done in 25 years and I've had not problems.
Internal diameter of 8mm copper is larger than that of 10mm plastic.
I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought this.
Maybe I misunderstood what you're planning to do but surely using the heat pump to heat hot water is more efficient than using solar / battery to heat it via an immersion heater?
Course it is... thats what the heat pump will do and store in the cylinder
A hell of a lot more efficient, but it can be a lot cheaper!
300% efficient @ 20p/kw vs 100% efficient @0p/kw if you have a solar diverter
Hope it goes OK. Still in talks with Octopus trying to find a solution after planning refused. Might just have to wait until guidance changes
I am amazed by the small id of those connections! Here in the Netherlands we usually start at 13 mm id, so 15 mm copper or 16mm steel or unicore.😮
Also, no attic since the ‘70s looks like that!! Insulation is in the roof so any installations are inside the heated “shell” and not exposed to outside cold which puts a strain on the pipes and boiler vat own insulation. (Affecting heat loss.) The cold water intake of the boiler is also vulnerable to condensation which can cause corrosion damage from water creeping unseen under insulation. Only completely sealed Armaflex of the right thickness will protect from intruding water vapor throughout the summer when humidity is high.
I had survey told pipework would need replacing. But optopus will not do this. So be careful you have to have somebody else do work. I had no problem paying for this. But they only want easy installs
Great video. Still think you should go with a Heat Geek Elite survey, utilise open energy monitor to be on the heat pump leaderboard and run the HG Newark heat pump cylinder.
I see the appeal in the Cosy 6 and its low cost but designing then running an efficient low temperature system is a lot more interesting.
Online quote for a heat geek elite is £7500 after grant, Octopus is £1300 even with the higher SCOP from HG it would take around 12 years to see that payback in investment by then the heat pump could of been replaced and tech could of moved MUCH further along. I'll likely be fitting open energy monitor to my system anyway as makes it more interesting for my channel and videos. PS am not dismissing what heat geeks do but for a small dwelling like my self and limited heat demand the cost difference is FAR too much
@@NicolasRaimo @HeatGeek Co-lab video would be enlightening for all us new build owners wanting to switch 🤔
Be interesting seeing a few installs of the cosy 6 before I buy one. I do wonder about the opening for the fan, I assume the fan is still mounted vertically rather than an angle (because that would be really daft, more likely vertical with ducting), but surely rain is going to collect in the opening, on heavy snow days it would become blocked? Although I'm sure it has drain holes and they will have mitigated this it appears to me to be an unnecessary design choice.
I think with your particular home there are too many compromises, have you considered a wall mounted split unit like Vaillant aroTHERM split 5kw or 7kw. Pipework much smaller so less issues internally and shorter pipe runs so less heat loss.
@Nicholas I’d use LoftZone loft floor kits. You don’t want to end up with your insulation being compressed cos it will damage the thermal efficiency
Already looking at similar kits
Thanks for vblog on survey Nick. Ive got a Daikin through octopus coming beginning of june. What spec Daikin is it your getting? The 6 or the 8kw? Assume the 6 if its cozy (red) 6. Also deliberating on what diverter approach with my solar and 9.5kw battery for water. Thinking of just leaving it out and exporting.
I was spec'd 4kw but am not getting Daikin waiting for the COSY6 from Octopus them selfs!
video regarding solar diverting coming soon!
Pity they aren't doing the higher spec cosy models yet. My heat loss is rated at 11kw so well outside the range. 125m sq, 1890s cottage, fully insulated but 9 foot ceilings. Still managed to get an EPC of B though with various countermeasures.
why don't you put the DHW tank in the garage?
garage isn't connected to home its 20 meters away...
@@NicolasRaimo is the ASHP final is located near the garage?
yes i know but factor in the weight in the loft, pipes running up the loft,
all pipework can go in the ground Flow & return heating, cold water main and flow return loop on water this could be on a timer.
just thinking outside of the box.
i have a wood boiler in my garage with 1000l buffer, 40meter run works well for me.
@@ecoterrorist1402 there’s zero viable path to garage
@@NicolasRaimo np, looking forward to the next update.
Choose an air to air heat pump system instead , much cheaper to install and maintain.
Air to air would cost far more as no grant from government and I’d still need a method for hot water
Also tempted by this as you also get cooling in summer.
@@NicolasRaimo An air/air system is much cheaper to install, heat your water using immersion heater, coupled with solar thermal. And you get cooling in the summer. Works fine for me.
That is something that I am considering as well for the future, amongst other technologies.
@@antwnpowell air to air would cost a lot more than the £1300 octopus charging after grant
Super tempting to sit on your hands for the cosy6
That’s what am doing
I’m waiting for it - spoke to Octopus and they are going to contact me when the Cosy 6 is ready. I’ve got my quote on the current pump just to hold my interest on their system
@@Nashvillesky are you expecting the quote to be the same/similar?
How do you find out if you have one of those 22mm to 10mm manifolds then?
We came up to the cylinder too wide for loft hatch conundrum. Hopefully there's an ashp on the way that can heat water on demand. Even if the running costs go up because there hasto be an additional heating element, it would solve so many problems for our UK homes, where space is often at a premium. Oh and time to prize apart the relationship between gas pricing and electric.
There’s some other solutions out there which ain’t hot water tanks!
@@NicolasRaimo tease! Seriously, ashp for rads, then ashp with electric boost for taps, showers, baths could just be a simple swap for a combi boiler
But good luck getting a grant for it.
@@martinwray7001 sunamp heat batteries for instance.
Take the heat pump output so afaik they do qualify for the grant.
@@JohnR31415 but still a big lump to put somewhere.
@@martinwray7001yes - because storing heat is always going to allow more efficient heating than running very high power heating.
Similar space to the boiler…
Hi Nick great video you have giving me lots of positive thoughts on positions of heat pump water cylinder and radiators. I signed up and paid my £500 last December and waiting for the cosy 6 survey. Have you any idea when they are starting installs. Many thanks Dave
Hey David depends where in country you are as engineers need to be trained for cosy6, PS if you haven't signed final contract yet post top of this video we can split £200 between us
@@NicolasRaimo Hi Nick thanks for your reply, yes I will use your link many thanks.
I have installed many combi systems so listening to your account of the need for bigger radiators, tank in the loft, insulation and lights in the loft, pipes up the wall ,restrictions on the location of the HP unit, hiding pipes int eh walls and so much more - I have calculated that it will cost you about £18,000 less any grants. For what? What actually does a HP achieve which is more cost effective than a modern combi which can be installed in a day. Because a combi is only costing when it is running - ie for hot water in the summer. and when the house is cold in the winter. Gas is half the price of electricity.
Took octopus 4 days to install mine at a cost of £915 all in, we now have no gas whatsoever and had the meter taken out and it’s so far a lot cheaper, they swapped some radiators, all labour, new water tank, the heat pump, the lot, also it only kicks in when the water drops to a certain temperature just like a gas boiler does. We needed a new boiler cos ours was 10 years old and constantly breaking down so it was a choice of £3k for a new boiler fitted or £915 for a heat pump and I’m so glad I went for the heat pump
Many people don't want to burn gas anymore and the planet needs so many more people to think that way.
What is the annual running cost for a 10kw heat pump including maintenance? Is it very expensive compared to a combi boiler?
@@JM1919MJI could never loose my gas hobs, induction ones are terrible. I do like the idea of the rest of it though.
that type of loft is not just for new builds by the way, our 1979 built house has the same type of loft
More common in homes built from 1990, but of course it was used before just now everything built for cost and this a cheaper way to build
Had a British Gas ASHP survey for my 7 year old 4 bed new build. Shocked they came out with £14k on top of the £7k Grant!
They proposed 10kw Valliant (fine) but then replacing all 13 radiators (over spec methinks for their ‘warm home promise’ 1 year guarantee).
Try octopus see what they say and compare the 2 on what they spec, you can also snag another £100 off when you split £200 with me on refferal code in pin’d comment
What is the annual running cost for a 10kw heat pump including maintenance?
Just got a quote for a heat pump and running costs versus natural gas. Shocked, under the current tariff’s electricity charge would mean I would be worse off by £70 a year on top of the cost of installation, so no saving. I am not with Octopus and this was an independent survey. I am looking at propane bottles vs natural gas, so the gas daily charge of 28.191p and gas meter will go, I have only a combi boiler that needs gas.
Octopus can quote for non customers
So a combi boiler is better on your pocket?
@@bruceleenbs heat pumps cheaper to run than a combi but depends on flow rate and install but should be at worse price parity
@@NicolasRaimo current cost of electricity inhibits mass adoption of heat pumps. It's affordable mostly higher income with some cash to spare and shell out extra for heat pump.
@@bruceleenbs there’s a deal for heat pump customers offering cheap flexible electric, even at standard rates its price parity with gas and my install less than a new combo boiler swap
What is the annual running cost for a 10kw heat pump including maintenance?
Don't know without knowing your heat loss or flow rate need and maintenance same as in this video
The horizontal water tank like the one in your thumbnail is an extra cost of £800 (the surveyor also said horizontal ones are less efficient)
Hi Nicolas, not sure about the other things but I might have a solution for your additional radiator for your kitchen. I plan to get heat pump in near future(after PV upgrade) and plan to get rid of some of the ugly ad always in a way radiators in kitchen and living room. For kitchen there is a water feed plinth heater. Since your boiler is already there there wouldn’t be much work required for plinth haters(except that you need a weak power source, low voltage power or just. Normal electric connection). Btw ther are some plinth heaters with wireless conectivity to HA and likes! And for he living room there are heating skirting boards to buy. Not sure if this would solve some of your problems but maybe a good idea.
For now a small rad there isn’t too much issue so I’ll go for that, I did think of a plinth heater though!
How about rads with booster fan? ... Pro's and con's ... ?
A friend has a one bed end terraced house that needs old electric night storage heaters removing (no gas to property) ..I wonder if this would work or what other choices are there??
Maybe try air2air system th-cam.com/video/ef8dNhiHp-4/w-d-xo.html if he hasn't got a boiler he won't get BUS grant so a2a likely cheaper and easier to install as he won't had rads currently
our quite is nearer 4k from octopus, but we have nowhere for the water cylinder anyway and its pipes and are not having it in the loft. and i am not taking up floors and knocking out bits of walls either. if the government want us to have one they can fully pay...for everything. because i am not paying anything out of my pocket just for what really is a small saving int he grand scheme of things
Daikin's don't seem to be as efficient as Vailant's. I'd be tempted to wait and see what results the Cosy 6 gets or go with British Gas who supply Vailants.
I agree with the comment on Vailant being a better system. However, British Gas phoned me the day before my survey stating some pretty unviable conditions. Despite me having all 22mm and 15mm copper pipework and some under concrete floors they stated that they would replace the entire heating pipework in the house and surface mount wherever there was a concrete floor. Additionally they insisted they needed 1m access width down the side of the property to get the ASHP to the back, while I only have 850mm. The ASHP is only 700mm wide, so maybe their fitters are extra large gents?
Sorry to whine, but British Gas let me down with a 'no' the day before the survey, after waiting 5 weeks for them to come.
@@Ben-gm9lo Thanks for the info. I haven't started looking for quotes yet as I still have some upgrades to do but I'd be annoyed with that service too.
Had our survey done a couple of weeks ago.
All seemed good, house is a 7 year old new build and heat loss he said was one of the better ones he'd done.
System was designed and we spoke about placement for the ASHP outside.
With 2 options
On coming back to me last week, both installs will require planning permission as 1 is within 1m of the boundary (even though other side of the 6 ft wall is footpath)
The other option puts me 0.1db over the 42db permitted development allowance limit.
So annoyed right now for the sake of 0.1db if only octopus offered an alternative ashp that was better than 58db at full tilt.
Cost for planning will be around £4-500 with no guarantee of passing.
So i think we're going to give it a miss.
We live in a 4 bed detached on the end of the street with neighbours only to one side, so have a decent size plot to install on.
So how the hell are those in semi's and terraced going to be able to get one fitted.
Answer - they're not.
The mcs20 is a joke and needs serious overhaul.
42db is almost silent
Quieter than a fridge freezer.
If the government want these things to be the future they need to amend the planning farce.
Good luck with Daikin after service! Good heat pumps when they work. Vaillant are very good with their after service and if you have an issue, plus have a very good deal with OVO for cheap electricity
4:26 my house is 18 in almost every room and 15 at the bedroom. 20 is my comfort up limit during the day, can’t sleep if the bedroom is too warm. Need it to be 16 or colder
Some comment other day saying he wants it to be 24c in his bedroom I felt sick for him
top video. thanks for making it.
Plenty of others following on if it helps
Don’t use loft legs they are not great. Get some 2by4 timber and lay on top at 90 degrees to the joists. You might want to sister the joist under the water tank by bolting 2by4 to the side of the joists.
See install video ;)
Not sure how far your install has gone, but have you heard of a Sunamp? I believe I read they make an outdoor vertion of thier hot water battery, so this might save you all this extra cost by having the hot water in hte kitchen or outside, and yes they work well with ASHP and they do a 250L vertion as well.
Octopus don't offer sunamp
The rules and regulations for getting anything done in the UK are astonishing, If it’s not no you can’t do that or that, it’s jumping through hoop after hoop .
Great video. Really interesting. Have you seen the Dutch 'chimney' heat pumps? No idea if they are available over here but they might be a good solution for you. We are almost a year into our heat pump installation and really enjoying the system!
I’ve seen Bosch chimney Hp not a big fan of its look to be honest makes sense for a new build but I think structural support for mine be an issue plus I got solar panels on roof
@@NicolasRaimo Fair points. Nothing's ever easy, is it?? It'll be worth it in the end though. Good work 🙂
I'm currently in the process, at the GO/NO-GO decision point - for a proposed date of MARCH 2025
Similarly sounding journey, largely, but with a slight wrinkle that for reasons I don't really understand Octopus appear to be "stalling" giving me a revised statement of works - I've had 2 re-reviews due to various questions raised on the original, and subsequent survey.
If you did have surface mount pipes for the rad and tank so no extra work was the quote similar to what you were originally given? I was quoted £8,000 so £500 for me to pay after the grant. My house is pretty new, 6 years old, and I do have space for a hot water tank on the first floor as I already have a hot water storage tank. But I'm worried the price is just a bait and switch affair.
Octopus ain’t bait and switch if you had survey that’s the price! They normally quote price after grant thou so check also remember my code will get you another £100 off evnick.com/energy
Octopus don't bait and switch! cough use my code your get another £100 off making it £400 total!!! evnick.com/energy for heat pump code also BEAR IN MIND octopus normally quote price AFTER grant just check
That sounds like a lot of issues to address. Have you considered a Tepeo ZEB boiler. Same flow temperature in the radiators as your gas boiler. No need to change any radiators.
thats an electric boiler won't hit efficiency or cost of a heat pump
Yes it is an electric boiler. You need to compare total cost of both options. Just add a few more solar panels to compensate for the electricity costs. In addition with Intelligent Octopus Go I'm getting 11.5hrs @ 7.5p/KWh. Just a thought.
@@jonathangoss396using electricity for heating and hot water in a typical house is absurdly expensive. You would have to be mad unless you have an extremely small or well insulated house.
Hi Nick. A very interesting video as usual! I had an online quote from Octopus yesterday, so your video is very timely. I've got micropore to many of my radiators from a manifold under a bedroom floor. Even though the Cosy 6 will work with my setup, I think it has to run hotter to counteract the microbore. That means the efficiency (SCOP) will be less, so the running costs of the system will be more expensive than the gas boiler system is. I think this means that I'll have to have new pipework. Is that something Octopus will do (as an extra cost) or would I need to get that done before the install?
Also, you said the Harvi is a solar diverter, but it isn't. The Harvi is a hub. The solar diverter is the Eddi (I know because I've got one!).
Anyway, thanks for another really interesting video Nick
Hi Phil octopus designed for 50c flow for all systems when the outside temp is -2.3c for my area it’s likely I’ll be able to dial this down but this flow temp is 1p more than gas but gas is 90% efficiency so it’s price parity maybe cheaper that’s run at 28.5p peak rates for intelligent if you used octopus off peak rate as well it’s well under gas! Cost6 doesn’t need to run hot it’s just able to but for micro of 10mm it’s fine. Another video is due with this info
@@NicolasRaimo That's great. Thanks for the reply and the info Nick
i just had my octopus install they broght a cosy six the engineer fortunately realise i have to have the daiken as the csoy six uses propan and it was being installed outside a bedroom which is dangerous so delay whilstthe daiken turned up
Did Octopus Energy offer you Sunamp product instead of the hot water tank?
No...
Think I'll stick with a boiler for now.
Maybe if I get solar and a few batteries, I'll get an electric boiler, but I'll not be getting a heatpump. There is way too many pipes and stuff involved I have no space for the tank in my house, I would need to build a lean too nevt to the house and that's just extra work that I couldn't justify.
I was quite keen to have a heat pump however with 8mm microbore pipes these would need replacing at a cost of £2500 so it’s a non starter for me unfortunately
Hopefully a solution for you might be possible some other heat pump installers can likely do it with different system designs even now depending on heat loss
We had a quote from octopus for a heat pump (11,000 - 7000) £4000. We have an average sized 3 bed house. Wish we were quoted £500!
its going to depend on your EPC and other details they gather during survey
It depends on your house and epc and your heat loss this needed a smaller or bigger air source pump and depending on plumbing required
Waving those arms around, thought you were landing aircraft on the side! Lol 😝 I’m all for these when the price of electric becomes affordable again!
I placed a £500 deposit with Octopus way back in October 2023 for a solar/battery install and a heat pump...the survey for the Solar was eventually done 26th April, the Heatpump 4th March....I'm still awaiting their quotes to arrive, so I wouldn't hold your breath for your quote arriving within a week Nick!
I too have a new build, very new, we moved-in Nov 23, so super insulated, ideal for a heatpump.
I have had quotes fom other companies... a local one quoted £3300 for a vaillant, British gas quoted £ 628 for a Dakin.
Like yourself Nick, im particularly interested in the Cosy 6, but it looks to be a way off yet, so I am in a quandry whether to just go ahead with the heatpump from BG or wait for the cosy 6 in the hope that it will be installed before tnext winter. The added complecation is that I intended for the storage battery to be installed in the garage where my gas boiler is, so i'd need the heat pump installed before the solar.
I have subscribed to your channel, so im looking forward to the update video about your Octopus enquiry.
Got the final heat pump survey and final sales contract 7 days after the heat loss servery all signed and awaiting for the cosy6 video on the final results coming soon! PS if you haven't signed final contact yet you can use my referral code if you want me to give octopus a nudge on getting final contract drop me an email
I previously read that the UK and regional parliaments intend to gradually equalize the unit price between electricity and gas over the coming years. It was buried in one their respective buildings heat strategy documents from a few years ago and I don't think this has changed.
this been a long term plan since the war started and the energy price madness started, currently we use gas to generate some electricity this inflates the cost of electricity to be very expensive, what we will see is this unlinked from electric wholesale costs and wind/solar used as the price factor instead.
I'd be concerned about somebody nicking the ashp if it is in such a "remote" location.
It’s a very special and odd item to steal, it’s heavy, would take some time to remove and requires a level of skill to refit
If you live in a remote location you’re more likely to have heat pumps fly tipped at your property.
Coal is the future
Hiding pipes in a wall. I say OUCHHH!!! to that. I always box in, make little hinged flaps over anything of interest, and have one side of the covering easily removable. Burying things in the walls sounds all well and good until a wet patch suddenly appears. Now is it leaking at that point (cut away the plaster board)? nope it is travelling along a pipe from elsewhere. Then you are cutting away plasterboard all over the place which needs replacing and replastering. Also put markers at the ceiling end and floor end exactly where the hidden pipes are so you can use a laser line to know where not to cut. Cutting in with a vibrating blade is just asking for a pipe to be nicked and you end up with a full blown flood.
Plastic pipes are chosen for low cost and speed at the cost of lower durability. Not good long term. Copper at 22mm is smaller than usually used for baths or tanks which is 28 or 32mm. If your buried pipes are 22mm and you discover it should have been 28mm are you going to live with inefficiency or rip the walls out? IMHO covering up is always a mistake.
You might want to be aware that 21°c is above the recommended temperature for a baby's bedroom. 16°c - 20°c is recommended by either the WHO or the NHS cant remember which.
Tell that to the nhs where the wards and rooms were 25c and midwife yells at me when I opened window
@@NicolasRaimo why? It's your baby I'm telling you. I double checked it's the Lullaby trust that say it.
Tempting. I would miss my gas hob though. Much cheaper and more controllable than electric and when discussing replacement of gas boilers with heat pumps no one seems to mention this fact 🤔
Replaced my gas hob with induction, fastest boiling of water ever full pan from tap to boil in 120 secounds! Easier to clean, safer worktop for my kids as surface parts don’t get as warm as heat does direct to pan. And best of all my co2 and air quality vastly improved in home remember a boiler flue is outside and your hob has no flue
My house is just over 30yr build, and copper micro bore under floor pipes. I’m so confused with the eco choices.
Hi Nick, how on earth did you get to pay only £1350 after the government grant. We have been quoted £4118 by Octopus after the grant ?
Neighbor quote was under a grand! Depends on size of your home and heat loss they estimate most of this via EPC
@@NicolasRaimo thank you
@@daveglover5439 to be fair £4118 still cracking cheap deal compared to some quotes I’ve seen, has anyone else quoted?
@@NicolasRaimo no other quotes yet, will let you know
@@daveglover5439 i believe heat geek do an online estimate
This video explains exactly why most of the UK will NEVER ger a heatpump much like how MOST will never get a EV too much costs and messing around
As a plumber and heat pump installer, I'm surprised that you are surprised that extra work costs extra money. Also, I've never seen octopus to do a £800 heat pump install (as advertised) for £800.
Cost us £915 for the lot
Heaven forbid you want something done properly and to a decent standard (pipes not running up the outside of a wall). Even worse if you have a request that's not "standard".
I'd recommend looking into Aria as a comparison.
I'm happy with my heat pump, but to be honest, the surveyers are misleading about what the tank will look and the size. If you get a survey or look online for official pictures, you will get a sense it's just a tank with a few pipes out of it - which of course it is not. I've got the space for this but I think it's going to be deal killer for many because the kitchen is the only suitable space.
What about hard water minerals in the water
How would that differ from a boiler?
Build up from hard water in if have hard water, minerals in the water or you must have a filter for your system anyway I live in the united states'of America Modesto CALIFORNIA
Those temperatures seem on the warm side to me.
What room temps? I live in a modern 4 bed detached I like to feel warm in my home that's why I brought a well insulated house
As well as your central thermostat , You will usually have thermostatic rad valves fitted , so you can adjust down the design temps for individual rooms if they are too warm. Easy ...
@@rico4229 with heat pumps your advised not to use trv
When mine was fitted they put TRV's on , saying best to keep them fully open , but can tweak down in some rooms if necessary... Works very well...
I've given up getting a heat pump. 1930s semi-detached, but Octopus who are by far the cheapest installer, especially with current 20% off, won't do as it's difficult to site the heat pump without planning, and the pipe run to anywhere with a tall cylinder is too long. They won't entertain having a Heat Geek ministore in the insulated space I have under the house. Too inflexible to get cheaper. Too expensive to get a Heat Geek. Stuck with a 20+ year old combi that I will be forced to change to another combi.
BTW, Octopus survey guy was here all of 5m. No solutions, no suggestions, no even suggesting another company or anything. It's all because I have a 1.8m tall balcony with steps down from the back of our house which is the only central place away from neighbours where a heat pump could be sited, and the lack of cylinder options. I even said I'd pay to get a Heat Geek ministore installed but he had no clue what that was all about. Heat Geeks will be too expensive for me.
I think I will stick to my Combi boiler, hot water on-demand and piping hot radiators had my hot water tank taken out 25 years ago and don't want another thanks, I will make sure I have another before the ban and that should see me out
Why? Because you can’t conceive of the benefits of planning?
Who cares what temperature their radiators are - surely it’s the room temperature you care about?
Why waste energy with hot radiators….
@@NicolasRaimo why waste energy heating water you may not use
@Aretec is it will 1920? A modern cylinder loses virtually nothing. Once you factor in instant hot water is by far the least efficient way to heat water you're paying more, for worse performance.
Might get one when the cost to me is just the house insulation upgrade