Biblical/Historical Evidence Jesus Died on a Cross, not a Stake
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- Helping Jehovahs Witnesses see the errors of the New World Translation
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A Lie Told Often Enough Becomes Truth,
How the Watchtower Deceives Jehovahs Witnesses
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Frame it anyway you like, the reality is that the Bible writers did not use the word crux. They used stauros, "pole or stake": If they had seen a cross, they would have written cross. But they didn't. Everything else is conjecture to justify tradition.
Please understand you are wrapped in Watchtower tradition… so much so you are ignoring the bulk of the information
@@ericschaeffer8288 Please yourself. I know my own mind. I don't need the Watchtower to tell me that the original manuscripts did not contain the Greek word crux. And what YOU need to understand is that it is you that are wrapped in tradition, Catholic tradition. You give more credence to tradition, historians, scholars and other high minded theologians than to the Word of God itself. Now you even point to scribblings on a wall to hold onto your tradition. For Christendom , that's nothing new though. Jesus described this perfectly, because the same thinking existed in his day: "Thus you make the word of God invalid ( nullify) by your traditions, which you have handed down. And many other such things you do." ( Mark 7:13)
There is no more pervasive, ubiquitous, pagan symbol throughout history than the cross. God condemned the ancient Israelites for the use of such images; they were even weeping for the Babylonian god Tammuz in his own temple. The symbol for Tammuz was the tau, a form of cross. The churches have done one step better than those unfaithful Jews though. They bring it right into their houses of worship and even hang it around their necks. Like a talisman; you know, a magic charm.
It was a cross
@@ericschaeffer8288 I don't need the Watchtower to know that they are two completely different words. That magazine has been around for a little over 100 years and for the first 20 years or so featured a cross predominately on the cover. When the error became obvious, they removed it. That hardly sounds like "tradition". The churches though, love traditions, going back hundreds of years. If the Bible conflicts with their traditions (just like the Jews in Jesus' day) tradition wins. Crux means a tee shape, stauros means a pole, stake or tree. The word the Bible writers used was stauros. No further 'evidence' needed. The fact that the cross fills their churches and hangs around their necks like a pagan charm shows it's origin.
BTW, someone cowardly removed my last response to this attack. I wonder why?
@@user-zo4nk4uq7z Prove it.
The apostle John who was at Jesus execution told fellow Chjristians said "Guard yourselves from idols" 1 John 5:21. If The cross is not an 'idol' why do people, bow, kiss and make its sign on their bodies? These gestures are identical to those who worship idols! We honour Jesus death by the faith we have IN OUR HEARTS. "We are walking by FAITH not by sight" (2 Cor 5:7)
You haven’t disproven that Jesus didn’t die on a cross….
All you’ve proven is that certain Christians ( mainly Catholics & orthodox) overvenerate relics.
Protestants don’t do any of that, so your argument falls short
Ezechiel 9:3-4
The Cross is not an Idol
Those who bow to it idolise it, or it becomes an idol to them not everyone.
@@eugeneattaattadjei9403 I apprectiate what your saying. However the Holy bible is clear; "Thou shall not MAKE s graven image or bow down to it". Notice it wasnt a matter of just not bowing to idols, God said DONT EVEN MAKE THEM!
@@aloys7716 So what is your point please?
Thank you so much. My parents who haven’t been in my life for 20 years are JWS with your videos I’m better equipped with info to try to get them out. God bless
May the Lord bless your endeavor and cause you to prosper!
You should turn to the truth. Jesus clearly died on a Stake
@@SugaPappi32 "Cursed is any man hung upon a tree". ( Deuteronomy 21:22,23) Paul cites this verse in Galatians 3:13, applying it to Christ and using the word tree, not cross. That's the Hebrew verse that Jesus fulfilled by being hung upon a pole, a tree or stake. Again, there is no word cross in the Hebrew scriptures.
@@ericschaeffer8288The 2 comments are correct. If it was a cross they would’ve said so. And since they point out that it was a tree like ξύλο or χυλών or something like that it is more evidence that there was no cross. And since they use the word “nails” in John 20:25 I lean towards the thought that his hands were nailed above his head separately on a single post. A θέση or Σταύρος. Δεν υπήρχε τέτοιο πράγμα όπως Σταύρος. Δεν υπήρχε Σταύρος.
Act 5:30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." A tree is not a Roman cross nor a vertical torture stake. Jesus carried one piece of wood, a pole or stake to the tree. He was then nailed to the pole, raised up onto the tree and nailed to the tree. The two thieves were hanged together with Jesus all on one tree.
So what that means sincerely asking
You are correct, Jesus was probably crucified on a cross. The first century Bible writers used the term for Jesus’ death instrument, said Cross in several places. There are two other reasons to believe that Jesus died on a cross. The people in the first century knew what he cross was, and Josephus wrote about a man called Jesus being crucified. So excavators of ancient cities around Jerusalem found letters from people living around Jerusalem in writing to each other, said that they had heard about a man named Jesus being crucified. There would be absolutely no reason for people writing lies, especially when they knew nothing about questions that would come up couple of thousand yers later. This information is the best information I have ever heard!!!
Jesus hands were lifted up 1 Tim 2:8 KJV
I haven't heard of those letters. Could you direct me to where I can find them? Thanks
@@edwardmiessner6502
Ed, I wish that I had kept the letter that I received out of the blue.
One other reason to believe that Jesus was killed on a cross!!!
Romans were not stupid! Have you ever thought about the effort it would take to nail anyone to a tree, cross or stake?? Imagine the weight a person would be if they were on one end a pole and you were trying to put the bottom end into a hole. The soldiers were not stupid. Where Jesus was crucified the soldiers had put many poles in the ground and left them there. They killed people regularly so they just made the person to be killed to carry the cross piece. That way it was a lot less effort to lift a person, already nailed to the cross piece, then attached the cross piece to the post. If you tried to lift a person on the end of a pole, when you got it upright it would be likely to drop into the hole. The sudden stop would probably cause the nails to rip out of the Hands and feet, causing more trouble for the soldiers.
Another thing to think about!! Any person who had gone through the beating with whips with iron balls and. sharp pieces of bone attached to the ends of the whip, would be covered with blood. The soldiers would not want to touch them and get all bloody, which they would be forced to do, if he were on a pole.
Another thing, if the person to be crucified was attached to the cross piece, it could very understandable for people, in time, to call the whole contraption, a cross, just as they called it a tree.
Another reason Jesus was crucified on a cross is, many called it a tree. Today we do the same thing. We call a stake with small attachments, a clothes tree, or a hat tree. If there were no cross pieces the people would have never call the contraption a tree.
One more thing to think about. The people, in the first century, were about 11 times smarter than we are today. They did not have the accumulated knowledge, but their thinking ability was much greater than ours. We today, use around 3% of our brain, which means that mankind has lost around 17% of his brainpower for each century we have lived. Since mankind has lived on earth 2,000 years since the death of Jesus, we have lost about 33% of our brainpower since Jesus lived on earth, and we use about 3% of our brain. The people in the first century, were around 11 times smarter than we are today. They knew what a cross was!!!
@@scottgrey2877 it does not say Jesus hands were lifted up
@@scottgrey2877wrong on that one
if the hands were above his head and the sign placed above the sign, the sign would still be above his head (inconclusive). The hands could have been nailed to either side of the stake as he feet were proven to be (inconclusive)..
Neutral evidence:
- The Greek word stauros can mean stake or cross, so the word alone doesn't tell us what shape it was.
- People were crucified on many different shapes of stauros', including poles and crosses.
What evidence do JWs have that Jesus died on a pole?
- Nothing.
What evidence do we have that Jesus died on a cross?
- Jesus carried his stauros to the place of execution. There is no example in ancient literature of a person carrying the vertical beam to the site of crucifixion, but there is literary evidence of people carrying a cross-beam.
- Jesus' hands were affixed with nails (plural), which is consistent with being affixed to a cross-beam. Look at JW literature and you will see that all artist portrayals of Jesus on a stake only have one nail in his hands, because that is the natural way to affix someone's hands to an upright beam. While it is possible that a person's hands could have been placed on either side of the pole (as the feet were), but that is not the natural position for hands. This detail favours cross.
- The Staurogram found in early Greek manuscripts shows that early copyists believed Jesus died on a cross.
- The Puteoli graffito or the Alexamenos graffito show that people were crucified on crosses and that a Roman Christian was being mocked for believing that his God was crucified on a cross.
- Early Church writings like the Epistle of Barnabas 9:7, Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho ch. 40, Tertullian, Against the Nations 1.12.3-4, etc., all show that the early church believed that Jesus died on a cross. *There is not ONE single early church writer who says that Jesus died on a stake.*
- Non-Christian Roman or Greek writers like Lucian (125-180AD) say a stauros looks like the Greek letter Tau ("T").
- Modern Bible dictionaries or Greek lexicons show that stauros can mean cross. JWs always appeal to old and out-of-date ones.
In the end, it really doesn't matter what shape of Stauros Jesus died on. What is important is that God (the second person of the triune God) became human and died on behalf of his creation. However, JWs make false claims about the cross and accuse Christians of worshiping the cross, just as the pagans accused the early Christians. When a person does some research, the weight of evidence is on the side of Jesus dying on a cross-shaped stauros.
@@BasicBiblicalTruth preaching to the choir but I thank you for going into great depth to prove a point. Num 21:9 talks about a pole but that definition can mean like a flagstaff also. Jn 3:14-16 reads a lot different when one interprets the greek word "so" correctly (in like manner, or as in this way), not aa a quantitive of amount of love.
Num 21:8 LXX says, Ποίησον σεαυτῷ ὄφιν καὶ θὲς αὐτὸν ἐπὶ σημείου “Make for yourself a snake and put it on a sign-post.”
Jesus said, “Just as Moses _lifted up_ the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up” (Emphasis mine; John 3:14 NET). The point of this text is that Jesus must be “lifting up”-it doesn’t say on what type of instrument (“sign-post” [σημεῖον] isn’t mentioned). Likewise, when Jesus used Jonah as an analogy in Mat 12:40, the only point of correspondence was the 3 days. If Jesus or the NT writers wanted to say that Jesus would be/was crucified on the same shape of instrument that the snake was placed on, they would have used the same word found in Num 21:8-9, but they didn’t-they used σταυρος.
As for your comment about "so", I suggest reading the NET Bible note on John 3:16.
Also the Romans crucified people before Jesus was born ,in 73 BC sparticus led a slave revolt but was defeated by crassus in 7l BC and the rebels were crucified all the way to Rome.
Wood was expensive. They would not use extra would for a criminal
@@SugaPappi32 Also, a huge wooden cross would have been incredibly heavy, much too heavy for a single person. He had help later but was forced to carry it some distance.
Hello Eric: But Constantine was born in the third century but only came into negotiations with Christians around 311 AD which is the fourth century, not the third.
🙌👏🙏
The 'torture stake' was Rutherford's bright idea. In 1919, when Jesus (they say) chose the Bible students, was it a Cross on the front of the publications or a stake?
If the Watchtower NWT promotes the the stake rather than the Cross, you can guarantee it is wrong. By reading and comparing the NWT to the KJV it is very obvious that the JW NWT's goal is to decrease and completely remove the importance of any "Worshiping of Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" This is just another example of how the NWT deceives the JW. Any Christian knows that no matter how well versed a person may become in Scripture, without the Worship of Jesus Christ being equal and completely part of the God head you are just involved in another Religion. Not true Christianity. No JW has a relationship with Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit.
That stake doctrin came from Rutherford.
Please few humble questions
1. Don’t we think the sign fastened above "His hand" is also above His Head??
2. Can't Nails in John20:25 because Jesus was nailed in the feet too??
Because we can consider it that Thomas was listing the places Jesus was pierced; Hands, Feet, and Side.
No doubt, these words worth considering. My point is when you add up “nails” “above head” testimony of several Early Church Fathers, Ancient Greek inscriptions, etc… the evidence greatly outweighs the stake.
@@ericschaeffer8288 Alright, thank you
You can argue away each point if you just take each on it's own perhaps but when all points taken together you certainly can adamantly say its a stake. I think there might be a medical reason that out stretched hands you die slower which the Romans particularly were fond of. Hands directly above the head you die too quickly because you can't breathe, 10-30 mins, just a thought.
Sorry it should read "can't adamantly say".
This is a great video with accurate information not seen many like this
Not really
Great video!
so good . informative .
1st century Israel = 21st century Korea . You have to know that .
Amazing historical events are taking place there .
Longitude 127 Seoul Okinawa Soul Axis -- Bahai Faith Rael
Jesus Huh kyung young Great veritas
All that was presented as evidence for the cross was flimsy at best. Not exactly forthright when presenting the facts regarding JW's either. Not good at all. I guess you got to push the sales up for your book somehow
On one hand, I agree there are no guarantees it was a cross or a stake, but on the other hand, to treat the evidence fairly, you must admit it definitely sides with the cross and it reveals how the Watchtower uses less than noble methods to defend their stance.
@@ericschaeffer8288 I am not referring to the guarantees in either direction but the mischaracterisation of the alleged facts you present
(1) You state they claim the Greek word "Stauros" means "torture stake"
The article expresses in the first instance how other bibles than the NWT render the word either "cross" or "torture stake" respectively. Yet you conveniently left out mentioning the very next sentences because they actually destroy your whole narrative you are pushing. BTW this information has nothing to do with JW's
In classical Greek, this word meant merely an upright stake, or pale. Later it also came to be used for an execution stake having a crosspiece. The Imperial Bible-Dictionary acknowledges this, saying: “The Greek word for cross, [stau·rosʹ], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. . . . Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.”-Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376.
(2) You claim the JW's state it originated in the 3rd century with roman emperor Constantines and due to troubles blended pagan and christian practices
Yet the article states "Then, about 300 years after Jesus’ death, Roman Emperor Constantine adopted the cross as the emblem of his armies, and it thereafter became associated with the “Christian” church." By the 4th century, under the Sun Worshipper, Constantine, the cross began to be embraced more openly as a symbol of triumph, redemption, and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on behalf of humanity. Could the cross have been used in christianity prior? Yes but no real accounts of this especially as a lot of persecution of christians going on so I don't suspect one would advertise by displaying the cross.
(3) You state the bible gives to clues to the fact it is a cross not an upright pole or stake?
Here is what another non-JW soruce has to say. The book The Non-Christian Cross*, by J. D. Parsons (London, 1896), says: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross. . . . It is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as ‘cross’ when rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting ‘cross’ in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become its primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corroborative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape.”-Pp. 23, 24; see also The Companion Bible (London, 1885), Appendix No. 162.
No indication as to how Jesus hands were exactly nailed or his feet from the bible. Although the one piece of so-called evidence found is a nail through the side of a foot indicating they nailed each foot to either side of the upright. This may well have been similarly done to each hand. Therefore, with each hand also either side, that required two nails means the sign is above Jesus' head on an upright pole.
(4) Justin's Unicorn reference! Wow a mythical creature to describe the cross. If the word "stauros" meant cross what's the requirement to symbolically describe it especially using a fake animal. Just say cross, the Koine "Common" language spoken for some 600 years would obviously know this word meant cross if indeed it did mean cross.
(5) Who is Arrhenius? I am under the impression ""The very form of the cross, too, has five extremities, two in length, two in breadth, and one in the middle, on which... the person rests who is fixed by the nails." is Justin Martyr's "Dialogue with Trypho," I'm not sure why the ellipses is there. Did you copy and paste or actually research the quote?
(6) And finally the Alexamenos graffito appears to be a mocking or satirical portrayal rather than a respectful or factual depiction of the crucifixion from a Christian perspective but it is not a reliable historical source for the crucifixion of Jesus. Scholars and historians turn to more direct and contextually relevant sources to study the historical aspects of Jesus' life and death.
So in answering your question "you must admit it definitely sides with the cross" The answer is simply no!!
@@ericschaeffer8288 hey matey! wheres that gezers comment gone Read it earlier and lookinh for it now say there are two but does not show his other one anymore. ave you hid it because it trashed your video
@@ericschaeffer8288 Hey Eric it appears my comment is hid or removed. Is that down to you? If so I wouldn’t expect such action from the Purveyor of truth! Especially as you call the WT dishonest, deceitful, liars and all sorts. Care to reply or hide or delete this one as well
@@ericschaeffer8288 I base this comment on the fact there are 4 replies but only three showing
Eric, it looks like you hide comments that you are unable to refute that show your videos to be completely false. If so that's not honesty you claim to be a purveyor of and yet you hurl the same accusation at the Watchtower Society of the same accusation.
Comparing all bible translations. One this matter of the 'cross'. The JW's NWT is completely CORRECT in using 'stake' * 'torture stake' where the original greek word is STAUROS which DOES translate 'stake' & NOT 'Cross' a completely different greek word 'crux' I am afraid that the many pagan influences of the third century can be seen by the work of most bible translators in the way they have worded the NT. Words NOT in the earliest MSS's; 'cross', 'trinity' 'incarnation' godhead' 'God the Son' e.t.c e.t.c
You obviously shared your indoctrination despite the fact the video debunks it
@@ericschaeffer8288 The 'indoctrination' you mentions started with the inception of the state controlled church in 325AD. It was forced on the poplace under the threat of torture and death for anyone questioning the whole list of pagan & philosophical based doctrines! I am not a member of any church or religious group. I just read the bible. If the word 'Crux' is not in any of the earliest MSS, and if the cross symbol was used for centuries before Jesus as a symbol of worship of furtilitiy, then I feel its quite reasonable to reject this obvious icon and observe Paul's advice that we are "Wlaking by faith & NOT by sight". Amen, ( 2 Cor 5:7) Also I refer you to 'W.E.Vines dictionary of new testament greek page 256 under 'Starous' secular proof of the pagan origin of the ';cross' and its incorrect use in NT translations).
are you giving a thumbs down to the God of Jesus? Are you denying where Jesus said it would be a stake not a cross?
Feel free to explain
@@ericschaeffer8288 is that a yes to the God of Jesus?
I don't believe in God or the bible anymore but all the years of being a witness I never understood why this matters, I still don't know why people care. These inane arguments are a lot of why I quit religion. Nailing people to things is evil regardless of the shape of the thing or nail configuration. A god that allows or condones this is also evil in my book. A god that has to permit evil to validate his authority is a coward.
WOW!
Hi Will. Are you now an atheist? It seems like many Jehovahs Witnesses become so hurt when they realize the Watchtower is a false religion, that they leave all in favor of atheism.
I agree 100% Will
Jesus loves you!
I know this is an old thread now but yes, I am an atheist with a humanist leaning. Keep in mind I'm in my 50s and I've been out half my life. I left over doctrinal disagreement regarding how some things were being handled, I wouldn't say I was hurt in the sense you may be thinking. Atheism came later. I think the concept of the Christian god being the origin of everything is incredibly unlikely, I also find the current scientific theories to be incomplete and extremely unlikely but slightly easier to believe. Mostly I i decided not to spend the rest of my life trying to figure out something people have been fighting about since the beginning of time since I see little likelihood of a resolution. I've always been a very analytical person, probably why I didn't make a good witness.
are we still arguing about this nonsense?
Apparently we are
you need to do better research.
Explain please:)
Can I share two bible texts that shed light on the question of the 'cross'? Firstly John 3:14 where Jesus refers to Num 21:9 when the dying Israelites where saved by looking at a copper serpent fixed to a POLE. Jesus said "So the Son of man must be lifted up". Also Gal 3:13. " Christ became a curse for us since "Cursed is anyone hanging on a STAKE". Also Though roman guards supervised Jesus death, it was the Judicial court of the JEWS that sentanced him & would have added to his humiliation by having Jesus executed as a 'cursed criminal'. What the Roman Empire did later was different as we remember they were a PAGAN nation using many idols e.t.c. To me though the scriptural evidence is clear
What is the word used in Num 21:9 in the LXX? Is it σταυρος or ξυλον?
Does Jesus say that he would be lifted up on the same instrument as the serpent or that he would be lifted up, like the serpent was?
Gal 3:13 is quoting what? What words are used?
Jesus died on a cross.
@@BasicBiblicalTruth True its the symbolism that is more impoant regarding the 'copper serpent'. However If you are concerned about accepting bible truth & not just believing what men teach, why do the bible writers use the word STAROUS ( an upright stake) rather than CRUX? All the earlist MSS's right back to the third century use 'STAUROS'. ( Even trinitarian Vine in his famous greek dictionary accepts the pagan origin of the cross. ( page 256). Why cling to a preconceived tradition?
@Peter Beschorner Σταυρός means, “a pole to be placed in the ground and used for capital punishment, cross … a stake sunk into the earth in an upright position; *a cross-piece was often attached to its upper part (Artem. 2, 53), so that it was shaped like a T or thus: t.”* [1]
Σταυρός means, “a stake or post (as set upright), i.e. (specially), *a pole or cross* (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively, exposure to death, i.e. Self-denial; by implication, the atonement of Christ -- cross.” [2]
Σταυρός means, “stake, as instrum, of punishment PLUT. Art. 17.7 | extens. *cross, as punishment,* also fig. DIOD. 2.18.1 NT Matt. 16.24, Mar. 8.34, al. PLUT. Vind 554a ORIG. Cels. 2.56.28 (of Christ) etc. | fig. crucifixion of Christ, whose suffering on the cross became a means of salvation and redemption of human sin ATHANAS. Gent 1.16 etc.”[3]
[1] Walter A. Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature [BDAG], 4th ed. (Chicago, Il: University of Chicago Press, 2021), 836.
[2]James Strong, Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, (United States: Hunt & Eaton, 1890), 66.
[3] Franco Montanari, The Brill Dictionary of Ancient Greek (Leiden: Brill, 2018), 1954.
@@BasicBiblicalTruth Kevin! The Jews impaled on a stake. The ROMANS used 'crosses'. Remeber that Jesus was tried and condemned by the priests of Israel NOT by a roman court. You know this. So as Gal 3: 10-13 shows "Cursed is anyone hanging on a STAKE. Christ brought us freedom from the curse of the law". Thus is was a JEWISH not roman execution to fulfill God's requirement. The use of crusifixes that adorn churches and to which people bow e.t.c is NOT Christian but immitating pagan rites & customs. Its just one of MANY pagan rites & objects that have merely changed their names and been adopted by an apostate church formed by a cunning emporer who succeeded in popularising Christianity amoung th pagan masses. This is all attested to in factual history book re European history of the first 5 centuries.
@Peter Beschorner “Pilate said to them, ‘Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law.’ The Jews said to him, ‘It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death’” (Joh 18:31). The Jews took Jesus to the Roman governor to have him executed. They charged him with breaking Roman law (Luk 23:2) so that Pilate (a Roman) and would crucify him. Jesus was crucified as a political threat to Rome (king of the Jews) alongside two rebels (λησται) by the Roman governor (prefect).
The word ξυλον simply means an object made of wood. Last I checked, a cross was made of wood.
Luke 23 v33 proves it was a cross, read it please, thanks
A pole not a cross
@@scottgrey2877 Not a simple pole but a pole like a telephone/power pole, certainly with its transom, but also with a projecting and penetrating seat (Tertullian, Ad Nationes 1.12.3-4). Being crucified on THAT was an utterly humiliating extreme torture! 😫
Edit: remove repeated word, add "also"
Saying 'Nails' in the plural is by no means conclusive enough proof that Jesus died on the cross. No detailed description is given in New Testament regarding the form or shape of wood which Jesus was impaled on.
I agree with what you’re saying here. There is reason to debate this, however, when we look at the material from the sign above the head, nails (plural), Irenaous, Justin Martyr, and the Grafito…. It becomes clear where the bulk of the evidence leans
Also you won't live 3 days being crucified the way jw believe. You can't survive having both arms raised over your head and you being suspended that way
"No detailed description is given in the New Testament regarding the form or shape of wood which Jesus was impaled on."
So the crucified person wasn't just nailed up but he was also impaled? You are correct, sir.
I was going to write a whole thing about how a "cross beam" is most likely the most accurate interpretation from all the scriptures and historical and archaeological evidence. And how medically speaking, the time Jesus was on the cross leads us to believe it was a cross beam. But then erased it all.
Why?
Because it doesn't make a damn bit of difference. Jesus died for our sins, in a horrible, painful and demeaning manor. He was buried, and ROSE AGAIN IN THE SAME BODY, NOW GLORIFIED, on the third day for our justification. He ascended into Glory and is at the Right hand of the Father as OUR MEDIATOR, right now, praying for US. And those who don't believe this are doomed to everlasting torment, because they REJECTED the Gospel.
You cling to the teaching of men in New York, to your own destruction. You ignore Biblical Truth, in that EVERYTHING IN THE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT ABIDING IN JESUS. He is the sum of it all. He is what the OT prophets longed for. He is the manifestation of God's OWN LOGOS in the flesh. Jesus Himself said in John 5:39, "You search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life, and these are they which testify of Me." Jesus said the Old Testament testified of HIM. Was he a lunatic, or a liar? God forbid. Apparently the Old Testament was about Jesus and His message of salvation. Then in the New Testament, God dwelt among us, died for us, rose again for us. Why? So we can argue about whether or not the piece of wood stood straight up, or was horizontal? I guess!!!! But in arguing about which way the piece of wood was pointing, you focus on what some magazine tells you that was only started 150 years ago, by men who would be disfellowshipped for teaching what they believed back then, today.
But it was a cross, or cross beam. Just my humble opinion. I guess it is true then. It has become a stumbling block to those who won't believe.
Jesus hands lifted up in prayer on a torture stake 1 Tim 2:8 KJV
Referring to the "stake or cross " I agree that it doesn't really matter cause there are so many false doctrines from the Watchtower.
But they seem to think that they the only religion that has the truth basing it on the facts of the cross, the Divine Name Jehovah etc.
So proving to them that its incorrect sows doubt and hopefully they see the real truth.
And Jehovah is not God's name.
Its YAHWEH.
That's Hebrew. Do you speak Hebrew? The English is Jehovah. Everyone says "Jesus". Just look at the comments. No one says Yeshua or Yerimiah, etc. Not in English. All names have English translations, as in other languages as well. The pronunciation is only in question because the Jews stopped pronouncing the Divine name. (This means Yahweh is a "best guess" as well). I recently saw a video of a scholar brought in to decipher an inscription on an ancient 1st century ossuary in Jerusalem. It had the divine name on it and he read it as Jehovah. That is the long recognized pronunciation in English.
This is completely FALSE. A universally accepted greek scholar W.E.Vine on page 256 of his NT dictionary states; CROSS 'stauros' a stake. The cross originated in ancient Chaldea and was used by the church in the third century to encourage pagans to become Christians along with many other pagan symbols e.t.c sanctified into the church" ( end of quote). It is bowed to in homage exactly the same as a pagan idol to this day,. Worn around the neck, e.t.c. John said "Guard yourselves from idols" ( i John 5:21)
Nails could mean anywhere on his body
@@bryanttheus5025 Hi Bryan! I can see this matter of Jesus Death is of concern to you! I feel we shouldnt focus on exactly how Jesus died, but that he DID die! for you and me! I havnt the definititve answer myself!
The NIV translation is incorrect! The original gree word in the text in all early translations is STAUROS = a stake. Cross is from a completely DIFFERENT greek word ie 'CRUX', What is the point of basing one's faith on what is not God's word?
Jesus told all he would die on a stake
Wrong. The Romans killed people on a cross not a torture stake
@@jonahdab2491 romans killed people many ways there was no just one way. Jesus said he would die on a pole not a cross
The last letter in the Hebrew alphabet is Tav, meaning cross. The last letter in the first word of the bible. Bet Resh Alef Shin Yod TAV. In Hebrew it reads, the son of God, was crushed willingly to reveal the gift of the CROSS. Sorry JWs, you have zero understanding of the bible
@@brucehurt2521 The Bible provides evidence that Jesus died, not on a cross, but on an upright stake.
The Bible generally uses the Greek word stau·rosʹ when referring to the instrument of Jesus’ execution. (Matthew 27:40; John 19:17) Although translations often render this word “cross,” many scholars agree that its basic meaning is actually “upright stake. Jehovah's Witnesses talk the truth and you all hate them because you yourselves can't handle the truth. The Greek word Stauros doesn't mean two pieces of wood being joined together. It is you who doesn't understand the Bible. The cross is a pagan symbol and the Bible warns us not to make idols and worship them. This was the same problem that God had with the Israelites after they crossed the Red sea during the time of Moses.
@@SuperheroJunior the professor who wrote the encyclopaedia you quote from to justify your Translation (and I can get his details if you like) said the New World Translation is the worst Translation of the bible in the world. He was in the process of taking the Watchtower to court to stop them using him as a reference when he died. How about you do some investigation into Johannes Greber and just see how appalling you "bible ". You guys say we are in the last of the last of the last days, while your governing body says that in the last days, millions would come to "the truth". So why are your numbers crashing? Maybe because of all the paedophile cases??
You are right to use Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho 91.1-2) and Irenaeus (Against Heresies 4.24.4). But the translations are inadequate.
In Justin Martyr's piece, the Greek for "are supported" is _epoxountai,_ the 3rd person masculine present passive of _epoxeomai,_ "of the female animal, spring upon, cover, ride, be supported by" and the Greek for "are crucified" is _estaurōmenoi,_ the 3rd person plural masculine present participle middle-passive of _stauroō,_ "fence with pales, impale, crucify" meaning they are not just being crucified, they are also crucifying themselves! 🤢😨 If you read further on you'll find the horn in the middle "is shaped like a horn and even looks like a horn 😱 when it is assembled and pegged together with those other horns."
And in Irenaeus's piece, "five extremities" in Latin is _quinque fines et summitates_ meaning "five ends and high points" (actually four high points: the top of the pole or signpost, the ends of the transom, and one high point (horn - J.M.) in the middle, "on which rests he who is affixed with nails!"
And now the clincher: line 12 of Seneca Minor, Moral Epistles 101.10-14 where Maceneas expresses preference for crucifixion over suicide:
M: "Go ahead, you may nail me up and set for my seat the piercing _crux."_
S: "Do you think it's a trifle to *press your own wound,* and to hang [impaled and] stretched out on/by a _patibulum?"_
Now you see where I am getting at? The typical execution cross, or _crux,_ was not just a cross, not just a torture-stake, but both. It delivered a slow, lingering death in extreme torture and utter shame and humiliation: nailed to a cross, and cruelly penetrated by its male member.
If you think the Romans wouldn't do this, Romans 1 suggests otherwise.
Stake it is.
Stake in the form of a cross 😂
It does not say his arms were outstretched on a crossbeam
Not convincing enough!!
Curious, what evidence is more convincing?
The man with the Donkey head proves it was a cross
WRONG! 😂
Jesus never lived so he never died on a cross
The historical Jesus did, but he was _another_ Jesus whose identity Paul stole. And that's how the deception got started.
100% lived, the Romans wrote about him.