I wouldn't say the bloat from Caverna stemmed from a business goal. That's seemed unlikely for such a complex game such as this. If I were to design something this big with so much unknown amount of time that's needed to balance this stuff, I'd have to be really creatively motivated to do so, not financially (small games are easier to make, sell & pose less risk, and Uwe was no stranger to smaller games when he made this). I'd say your observation seemed uncharacteristically cynical. I have to admit everyone around me prefers Agricola, and I mostly play this solo these days, but I'm thankful the furnishing tiles are all there at the start. Despite their accessibility, there's a logical progression of which ones you should look at throughout the game: At the start: Cheap green ones to grease your resource engine. Mid-game: Dwellings, since at this point the "Wish for Children" action should be unlocked. More expensive greens can be considered here, but not critical. Late-game: Yellow scoring ones, which are easy to pick based on your quite developed board state at this point. You'd have to be a relatively experienced player to deviate from this progression, which isn't a problem since you'd have to like and played the game quite a few times then.
I just got Caverna and set it up but did not play it yet. My wife tend to prefer lighter board games than I do. I think the too many choices is a good point and something that could keep my group from playing very often. I thought the draft idea could be good. Does anyone know of any fan made variant for drafting? I was thinking another way of doing it could be a board you print out. Maybe it has spots for one of each tile type. The tiles could be used once per player that round even if someone else had used it already. Next round you draw new tiles and do it all over. Any thoughts on this would be welcomed as I haven’t even played the game yet.
If you're playing for the first time, I highly encourage the basic game. As for drafting, I'm not sure of how to balance it- but to increase replayability there's a fun print and play on BGG with a bunch of fantasy races with unique powers!
Shelfside I will definitely be playing the base game for a while. Once I get a better feel for it I might try and tackle a draft variant. Thanks for the additional race suggestion.
You make some very good points but you need to consider that the strategy changes during the games so you need the options. Otherwise other players will buy the rooms you need and block you from doing certain actions. Of course all these options will cause a lot of AP but like most heavy euros it has a steep learning curve and after a point taking decisions will be a lot faster. In any case, good review, keep the great work! PS If you are going to play Feast for Odin, try it with the expansion and not 2 players
Agricola is easily the better game to me. It's easier to explain, smaller box, cheaper, plays faster, more interesting choices, better theme, and the feeding people actually provides a more interesting decision space. Its seriously easy to plan around it. Build an oven and go to a food location in the first half of the game and you will be fine. When I taught it to kids, I just cut the food requirement in half and they didn't have a problem with it. I really don't get why people struggle with it. Theres literally 4 spots on the board to get food in a 4 player game. The best part of agricola though is the awesome cards which caverna lacks. They are so fun and give everyone a rough plan for how to proceed at the beginning of the game. In the end though, agricola just hits the table way more often. Its an easy choice.
The more I think about it as well, the more I like agricola over Caverna. Even to the point where I was considering picking up agricola, after I sold this copy of Caverna a while back! Caverna just doesn't have that much tension with the bloat, and doesn't have those draft-able cards to give you an incentive to playagain. Starving really isn't too much of an issue if you cut the food requirement too, great houserule. Cheers! -Ashton
I feel a bit different. Sure the first time you play it all the rooms are a bit overwhelming. However, after playing it a couple of times you basically know them all and the play gets good and quick. Experienced players can find competitiveness also by not only buying what they like for themselves but you can deduct what are the good options for the other player and buy them first. I guess Agricola is more a good entry game and better for new and inexperienced players, while with Caverna you need a group who have played it a couple of times.
Thank you for sharing your opinion! We found it a little tricky for our group to bring Caverna to the table multiple times, since we prefer more cutthroat games ahaha. Clearly a lot of depth with Caverna's massive options from the get go -ashton
The problem is that even though there are 48 tile/options to place ' there are still only 14 rounds of play. So if you spend your time up front buying chambers and storage then there aren't enough rounds left to grow your dwarfs.
My first experience with Agricola is the family edition since it was so much cheaper. I'm actually living that there are no cards at all. The whole competition is getting resources at the right time to benefit more than orher players. But I am curious about how the family edition of Agricola compares to the full version and to Caverna.
Don’t really agree with the huge amount of rooms being an issue. Your not really building the yellow rooms until like the late middle of the game, and the dwellings are really basic and essential to growing your dwarf family, so that’s not really adding any fluff. And I feel like the not as competitive, more laid back feel is the point of it. It’s a different enjoyment seeing how big you can grow, with Agricola you don’t grow as expansive, but it’s harder to get that expansion. Just different game feels but both great. The 7 player boards in caverna is a bit wild tho hahaha
all valid ponts...I own both games...and still love caverna because it is not as punishing and you can play it with friends (or kids) that are not as competitive and fierce as the 'pro'-players...
Caverna is Agricola for newbs and people who want "lightweight agricola without stress"-> easy to feed your family, no stress and "cramp" in stomach during the whole game because you are not sure will you be able to feed your family on the next harvest and lose the game because of it ...
Well made video. Totally agree. Now the interesting thing with feast which also has lots of spots for example is that many of them are pretty much same/similar goals so the spaces are easy to understand and track.
That's why my game group plays that you just start with a few tiles at the beginning and draw more each round.
Caverna is like open world video games. No fun at all. No urgency, no tight gameplay. An activity more than a game.
Thanks for this comment, helped me decide to go with another game. Activity like games are for some people, but not my cup of tea.
Flip the board over and play on the side with less tiles.
ye this guy made a video on a problem there is a solution in the box for...
@@RB028 As usual... making critiques based on pet peeves.
Sitting at the gaming table with Caverna set up in a way so that the purchasable tiles all face away from you is the stuff of nightmares.
I wouldn't say the bloat from Caverna stemmed from a business goal. That's seemed unlikely for such a complex game such as this.
If I were to design something this big with so much unknown amount of time that's needed to balance this stuff, I'd have to be really creatively motivated to do so, not financially (small games are easier to make, sell & pose less risk, and Uwe was no stranger to smaller games when he made this). I'd say your observation seemed uncharacteristically cynical.
I have to admit everyone around me prefers Agricola, and I mostly play this solo these days, but I'm thankful the furnishing tiles are all there at the start.
Despite their accessibility, there's a logical progression of which ones you should look at throughout the game:
At the start: Cheap green ones to grease your resource engine.
Mid-game: Dwellings, since at this point the "Wish for Children" action should be unlocked. More expensive greens can be considered here, but not critical.
Late-game: Yellow scoring ones, which are easy to pick based on your quite developed board state at this point.
You'd have to be a relatively experienced player to deviate from this progression, which isn't a problem since you'd have to like and played the game quite a few times then.
I just got Caverna and set it up but did not play it yet. My wife tend to prefer lighter board games than I do. I think the too many choices is a good point and something that could keep my group from playing very often. I thought the draft idea could be good. Does anyone know of any fan made variant for drafting? I was thinking another way of doing it could be a board you print out. Maybe it has spots for one of each tile type. The tiles could be used once per player that round even if someone else had used it already. Next round you draw new tiles and do it all over. Any thoughts on this would be welcomed as I haven’t even played the game yet.
If you're playing for the first time, I highly encourage the basic game. As for drafting, I'm not sure of how to balance it- but to increase replayability there's a fun print and play on BGG with a bunch of fantasy races with unique powers!
Shelfside I will definitely be playing the base game for a while. Once I get a better feel for it I might try and tackle a draft variant. Thanks for the additional race suggestion.
You make some very good points but you need to consider that the strategy changes during the games so you need the options. Otherwise other players will buy the rooms you need and block you from doing certain actions.
Of course all these options will cause a lot of AP but like most heavy euros it has a steep learning curve and after a point taking decisions will be a lot faster.
In any case, good review, keep the great work!
PS If you are going to play Feast for Odin, try it with the expansion and not 2 players
Really enjoying your style of videos, never stop making them!
Oh hey there! Really appreciate the comment, Caverna really brings back memories! More content coming out all the time :) -Ashton
Agricola is easily the better game to me. It's easier to explain, smaller box, cheaper, plays faster, more interesting choices, better theme, and the feeding people actually provides a more interesting decision space. Its seriously easy to plan around it. Build an oven and go to a food location in the first half of the game and you will be fine. When I taught it to kids, I just cut the food requirement in half and they didn't have a problem with it. I really don't get why people struggle with it. Theres literally 4 spots on the board to get food in a 4 player game.
The best part of agricola though is the awesome cards which caverna lacks. They are so fun and give everyone a rough plan for how to proceed at the beginning of the game. In the end though, agricola just hits the table way more often. Its an easy choice.
The more I think about it as well, the more I like agricola over Caverna. Even to the point where I was considering picking up agricola, after I sold this copy of Caverna a while back! Caverna just doesn't have that much tension with the bloat, and doesn't have those draft-able cards to give you an incentive to playagain. Starving really isn't too much of an issue if you cut the food requirement too, great houserule. Cheers! -Ashton
I feel a bit different. Sure the first time you play it all the rooms are a bit overwhelming. However, after playing it a couple of times you basically know them all and the play gets good and quick. Experienced players can find competitiveness also by not only buying what they like for themselves but you can deduct what are the good options for the other player and buy them first. I guess Agricola is more a good entry game and better for new and inexperienced players, while with Caverna you need a group who have played it a couple of times.
Thank you for sharing your opinion! We found it a little tricky for our group to bring Caverna to the table multiple times, since we prefer more cutthroat games ahaha. Clearly a lot of depth with Caverna's massive options from the get go -ashton
The problem is that even though there are 48 tile/options to place ' there are still only 14 rounds of play.
So if you spend your time up front buying chambers and storage then there aren't enough rounds left to grow your dwarfs.
"They're in a 6 by 8 grid, so there's 48 types... that's almost 50."
WE'VE GOT A MATH WHIZ HERE PEOPLE! MATH WHIZ IN THE HOUSE!
ahahaha cheers man :) -Ashton
My first experience with Agricola is the family edition since it was so much cheaper. I'm actually living that there are no cards at all. The whole competition is getting resources at the right time to benefit more than orher players. But I am curious about how the family edition of Agricola compares to the full version and to Caverna.
Almost same to food chain magnate milestones. I wanna see you guys do a video of fcm
challenge accepted, FCM has been a big time question mark for me on why it doesn't get to the table!
Don’t really agree with the huge amount of rooms being an issue. Your not really building the yellow rooms until like the late middle of the game, and the dwellings are really basic and essential to growing your dwarf family, so that’s not really adding any fluff. And I feel like the not as competitive, more laid back feel is the point of it. It’s a different enjoyment seeing how big you can grow, with Agricola you don’t grow as expansive, but it’s harder to get that expansion. Just different game feels but both great. The 7 player boards in caverna is a bit wild tho hahaha
all valid ponts...I own both games...and still love caverna because it is not as punishing and you can play it with friends (or kids) that are not as competitive and fierce as the 'pro'-players...
for sure! It doesn't quite fill that desire for our group nowadays, but man is this game relaxing and enjoyable -Ashton
What site do you play board game on?
I personally just play BGA and TTS! -Ashton
Hung up on "competitiveness" . Good job it's not a regular measure of a game's worthyness
Caverna is Agricola for newbs and people who want "lightweight agricola without stress"-> easy to feed your family, no stress and "cramp" in stomach during the whole game because you are not sure will you be able to feed your family on the next harvest and lose the game because of it ...
ahaha, Caverna is definitely way more noob friendly for sure. I want to play Agricola again, can't say the same for caverna :) -Ashton
Well made video. Totally agree. Now the interesting thing with feast which also has lots of spots for example is that many of them are pretty much same/similar goals so the spaces are easy to understand and track.
need to really try feast for odin! Maybe I can get a TTS game going one of these days. So far every Uwe game I've played is enjoyable.
but what if i like bloat heehee
Maybe bloated, but also much more fun for me!
Nah
A year of university education costs 200€ in Europe. Not 20 000 dollars like in the US. So the joke just makes you sound ignorant.
No, it doesn't make him. Kind regards, another European.
its free in my country :^)