Outlaw is one spec that I think has gone the furthest from the identity we all wanted. It was presented originally (when reworked) as a pirate/outlaw type character. Pistol shot and between the eyes and roll the bones ... all great. However, there is too much emphasis now on stealth; leave that to subtlety. I just want a fast paced pirate that is slashing with a sword and sneaking in targeted shots.
@@Frosty616.I would much rather have shadow dance back at this point and Vanish removed from our rotation. Keep it a pure utility ability. Though, if you do not like Crackshot/BtE go play sub.
i dont think anyone actually wanted a "pirate theme" for redesign in legion, combat was originally that one spec that was just get your swords and slash shit head on ...
No need to apologise for complaining about a bad spec. I really appreciate the amount of effort you have put in to testing so many specs. And in general you’re really positive, so when you complain we know a spec is dog shit! Keep up the great work.
'I dont wanna be here for to long' sums up my outlaw experience since shadowlands. It was my favorite class after fury warrior in bfa and legion so it makes me sad to see what they have done to my boy :,(
I wish they would take the "Randomness" out of Outlaw. I don't mind the dice roll, but you have like 3 RNG abilities that determine if you do damage or not. IMO, Between the Eyes should ALWAYS give you back combo points for x seconds after entering stealth. It feels great when you get those procs, make it always feel great!!!
As a rogue main who prefers Outlaw, Blizzard has committed a crime here. You are absolutely right. While your gameplay isn’t perfect, it shouldn’t need to be in order to get a general idea of the spec. It’s complete trash going into the war within. I’m considering main swapping for the first time, hopefully Blizzard sees your video lol. Thanks for bringing attention to it
Sigh its so easy for them. Rogue has such a direct flavor for each spec. Guns and swords, shadow and stealth, poison and bloody murder. They are so concerned with making each spec feel like rogue that they all feel the same... Stop thinking how do we make the rogue feel like an outlaw and start thinking how do we make an outlaw. The rest will sort itself out. We have stealth and vanish, that's rogue enough for me. Don't need it in a rotation, thanks.
Finally someone else says it. I like underhanded handjob or w/e its called but I REALLY hate having to play/feel like a sub rogue as outlaw with all the "from stealth and X seconds after you leave stealth" synergies that make that playstyle bis.
This might sound crazy but my dream outlaw would be as a midrange gunslinger. Screw the swords, think devastation evoker but with guns. Dual wield pistols or just a gun from the hunter loot pool if thats to much work for them. Close range shotgun blasts and western style fan the hammer unloads. Would be doable they already have the sound fx and skill effects in the game. I know one can dream, right?
As someone who co mains a rogue.. primarily outlaw/combat since... retail LK? Outlaw felt... lame. When blade flurry became a cd. It started feeling even worse when we started having to rely on shadow dance as our burst window. It felt good when we got crackshot. But watching these videos and seeing we now no longer have shadow dance... a crucial part to the crackshot build it just feels like blizz is giving us the middle finger. Add in how terrible all 3 hero talents look and I just want to ask blizz. Wtf were you thinking? It's like they got someone who has never played rogue, maybe the hunter designer to try and design rogue. Absolutely terrible.
I've been doomer on Trickster and Fatebound since they were released but didn't take it too seriously because I'd be playing sub/sin and Deathstalker was gonna be the saviour of rogue hero talents, with the best flavour/foundation in lore they couldn't mess it up right? What they put out for Deathstalker I wouldn't even consider acceptable for pre-Alpha. Think my choice for rogue spec and hero talents will just come down to which sucks the least rather than which is the most cool/fun to play, which says a lot about the state of rogue rn.
I have played combat/ outlaw as a main for over a decade and to see the spec over time getting further away from what its identity was is sad. If I play this next expansion at all it won’t be rogue… they had such an easy w here for a hero talent option to lean heavy into the brawler/ pistol theme that outlaw was designed for
personally i dont care about numbers that much, luckily I dont really have to since I am always playing M+ during season with friends... I do however like the constant "rush feeling" you get when playing outlaw, you 99% of the time have something to press, combo points are filling instantly back up and yeah consecutive Crackshot procs are addictive (full pun intended)
wow, thought some of the other melee DPS Hero Talents were unimpressive - Rogue is really in a sorry state So … for Fatebound … you’re collecting coins … like you’re Super Mario? Do you at least get a mushroom to double your size?
Would it actually be a better option to just not put a talent point into coup de grace? If it does no damage, prevents your crackshot dispatch from proccing and animation locks your toon, just not talenting into it could be the play I might try that to see if it is better
would love to see the reworked BM and MM soon if you could? especially BM, seems like BM turned into a fully fledged dot spec, it has 6 dots if you include black arrow, more dots then a afflic lock and Spriests and talents to play around the dots, looks intersting. way more buttons too
Unfortunately you can extend that statement to rogue in general. The hero specs flat out don't work to a significant extend, are inoffensive or don't align with the core rotation of the specs asking you to "misplay" on purpose.
I agree with another comment Outlaw shouldn't be stealth based. It's "Sneakyness" should be its pistol shot and between the eyes. Otherwise it should be the in your face rogue. Hell if they don't want to theme it 100% to pirates call it swashbuckler and do something fun.
I hope so bad for more Outlaw changes.. I love the class fantasy..!! Hope for more changes or even reworks.. For me.. my outlaw lives in the mad Max universe.. like a undead cyber punk theme..!! Make it flashy and dirty!!
Assassination fate one is only one that felt ok for me but still more work. btw I suspect not too much will change. Rogues don't leave nearly as much feedback on the forum and they pride themselves in pulling off the most complex inelegant rotation to achieve mediocre damage. If you try to bring elegance into it where you get rid of button bloat and sort of reign them back in them wise( out law less ambush stuff, sub more shadow, assassination more bleed) the community will resist1
to me season 3 crackshot outlaw was the best and most fun iteration of outlaw - ever. they ruined it now with ARR nerfs, Ace nerfs, Crackshot nerfs, secondary stat shinanigans.. i hope they revert the changes - theres nothing like the dopamin i got getting ace proccs back to back in my crackshot window, getting huge cdr and just pumping, sadly theres a loud minority that wants to play combat rogue and just press builders into finishers with bladeflurry up, a loud minority.
You are right. I'm not buying WarWithin for this. Why should I? There isn't a single thing to be hyped for. It's a nerf even in comparison to DF gameplay.
Personally I love the crack shot windows on outlaw. Gives the spec some short bursts of damage that it’s really never had. Being built around stealth cooldowns only feels odd because sub also does that, too.
Can you maybe try the no stealth version of the spec?? That would be awesome! Blizzard is moving away from the stealthy theme and I like that. So no crackshot but going for GS and greenskin
I did for a few dungeons and it was objectively worse. I really wish it wasn't, but I struggled to do damage. Crackshot is so broken because it also Dispatches the target on top of the Between the Eye's that you cast. No other talent is giving you 2 finishers for the price of 1.
Damn.. but thanks for your feedback! Love that you try it all. Would love to see how the non stealth version performs at the Moment.. keep up the great content!
The rogue hero specs need a complete overhaul/rework. This is absolutely embarrassing, and whoever came up with this should be ashamed. Shado-pan for monk could do with a rework as well. Why is the MARTIAL ARTS hero spec just entirely passive?? I think some of the criteria for what constitutes a good hero spec should be. Changes your rotation/gameplay in a meaningful and positive way Adds satisfying visuals in line with the theme of the spec Contributes significantly to your damage output. The player must've some control over the mechanics of the hero spec, it cannot be 100% passive. Not 1 of the 3 rogue specs does even 1 of these.
Blizzard: Don't worry about the damage, we haven't done final tuning yet. Every TH-camr: WHERE IS MA DAM BLIZZ BLAAAHHH DROOL. Seriously dude...we all know there's gonna be a patch right before launch and rogue, warlock, mages and moonkin are gonna be top damage as they always fucking are. Meanwhile all the other melee, shadowpriests and hunters will be nerfed into the ground. It's a tale as old as time.
@ZucoWoW it's actually quite fun. They could do a better job with the hero talents, but the playstyle is fun. Maybe stick to classes you enjoy and understand. :)
Outlaw is one spec that I think has gone the furthest from the identity we all wanted. It was presented originally (when reworked) as a pirate/outlaw type character. Pistol shot and between the eyes and roll the bones ... all great. However, there is too much emphasis now on stealth; leave that to subtlety. I just want a fast paced pirate that is slashing with a sword and sneaking in targeted shots.
I hate the between the eyes focus for any damage at all, and having to use vanish in an offensive opener
@@Frosty616.I would much rather have shadow dance back at this point and Vanish removed from our rotation. Keep it a pure utility ability. Though, if you do not like Crackshot/BtE go play sub.
i dont think anyone actually wanted a "pirate theme" for redesign in legion, combat was originally that one spec that was just get your swords and slash shit head on ...
Just saw a reddit post saying Fatebound should be replaced by a Bounty Hunter hero spec and I think it’s a great idea
No need to apologise for complaining about a bad spec. I really appreciate the amount of effort you have put in to testing so many specs. And in general you’re really positive, so when you complain we know a spec is dog shit! Keep up the great work.
Rest in pepperoni rogues.
100% agree on the shadow stuff with Outlaw. Biggest reason I like(d) outlaw was it didn't have to vanish all the time. Wish they would change that.
'I dont wanna be here for to long' sums up my outlaw experience since shadowlands. It was my favorite class after fury warrior in bfa and legion so it makes me sad to see what they have done to my boy :,(
Games coming out in 2 months and alot of specs are gana be so bad for months after, it's sad just thinking about it.
As a Destro Lock main I feel personally attacked by this video - didn't see that coming huehuehuehuehue!
I wish they would take the "Randomness" out of Outlaw. I don't mind the dice roll, but you have like 3 RNG abilities that determine if you do damage or not. IMO, Between the Eyes should ALWAYS give you back combo points for x seconds after entering stealth. It feels great when you get those procs, make it always feel great!!!
Still waiting for them to "Finish" the rogue specs before launch...because this shit was 100% abandoned half way.
As a rogue main who prefers Outlaw, Blizzard has committed a crime here. You are absolutely right. While your gameplay isn’t perfect, it shouldn’t need to be in order to get a general idea of the spec. It’s complete trash going into the war within. I’m considering main swapping for the first time, hopefully Blizzard sees your video lol. Thanks for bringing attention to it
Sigh its so easy for them. Rogue has such a direct flavor for each spec. Guns and swords, shadow and stealth, poison and bloody murder. They are so concerned with making each spec feel like rogue that they all feel the same... Stop thinking how do we make the rogue feel like an outlaw and start thinking how do we make an outlaw. The rest will sort itself out. We have stealth and vanish, that's rogue enough for me. Don't need it in a rotation, thanks.
I hope more youtubers make videos. All rogue specs are in cry state rn ane i might main different class for a season
Finally someone else says it. I like underhanded handjob or w/e its called but I REALLY hate having to play/feel like a sub rogue as outlaw with all the "from stealth and X seconds after you leave stealth" synergies that make that playstyle bis.
This might sound crazy but my dream outlaw would be as a midrange gunslinger. Screw the swords, think devastation evoker but with guns. Dual wield pistols or just a gun from the hunter loot pool if thats to much work for them. Close range shotgun blasts and western style fan the hammer unloads. Would be doable they already have the sound fx and skill effects in the game. I know one can dream, right?
A lot of people also wished Outlaw was like this.
THANKS SO MUCH FOR SAY THIS!!!!!
About 2% of players play rogue in s4 and i have gut feeling that it will go lower after next expansion.
Someone got a Rage Debuff...Dispel, Dispel
As someone who co mains a rogue.. primarily outlaw/combat since... retail LK? Outlaw felt... lame. When blade flurry became a cd. It started feeling even worse when we started having to rely on shadow dance as our burst window. It felt good when we got crackshot. But watching these videos and seeing we now no longer have shadow dance... a crucial part to the crackshot build it just feels like blizz is giving us the middle finger. Add in how terrible all 3 hero talents look and I just want to ask blizz. Wtf were you thinking? It's like they got someone who has never played rogue, maybe the hunter designer to try and design rogue. Absolutely terrible.
I've been doomer on Trickster and Fatebound since they were released but didn't take it too seriously because I'd be playing sub/sin and Deathstalker was gonna be the saviour of rogue hero talents, with the best flavour/foundation in lore they couldn't mess it up right? What they put out for Deathstalker I wouldn't even consider acceptable for pre-Alpha. Think my choice for rogue spec and hero talents will just come down to which sucks the least rather than which is the most cool/fun to play, which says a lot about the state of rogue rn.
It'll be sub. My least favorite spec
I have played combat/ outlaw as a main for over a decade and to see the spec over time getting further away from what its identity was is sad. If I play this next expansion at all it won’t be rogue… they had such an easy w here for a hero talent option to lean heavy into the brawler/ pistol theme that outlaw was designed for
Amen brother.
personally i dont care about numbers that much, luckily I dont really have to since I am always playing M+ during season with friends... I do however like the constant "rush feeling" you get when playing outlaw, you 99% of the time have something to press, combo points are filling instantly back up and yeah consecutive Crackshot procs are addictive (full pun intended)
Brrother thank you - sub rogue flavour in Outlaw STINKS, Blizz need to get rid of this stealth based crap!
wow, thought some of the other melee DPS Hero Talents were unimpressive - Rogue is really in a sorry state
So … for Fatebound … you’re collecting coins … like you’re Super Mario? Do you at least get a mushroom to double your size?
I wish lol.
you do almost the dps as my assa rogue in the prepatch with ilvl 480
Would it actually be a better option to just not put a talent point into coup de grace? If it does no damage, prevents your crackshot dispatch from proccing and animation locks your toon, just not talenting into it could be the play
I might try that to see if it is better
That's the recommended trickster build in the rogue discord.
Not using the hero capstone.
Sad
would love to see the reworked BM and MM soon if you could? especially BM, seems like BM turned into a fully fledged dot spec, it has 6 dots if you include black arrow, more dots then a afflic lock and Spriests and talents to play around the dots, looks intersting. way more buttons too
Unfortunately you can extend that statement to rogue in general.
The hero specs flat out don't work to a significant extend, are inoffensive or don't align with the core rotation of the specs asking you to "misplay" on purpose.
I agree with another comment Outlaw shouldn't be stealth based. It's "Sneakyness" should be its pistol shot and between the eyes. Otherwise it should be the in your face rogue. Hell if they don't want to theme it 100% to pirates call it swashbuckler and do something fun.
Finally some outlaw testing. I Hope the Will do something about it. Trickster looks thematicaly good but..
I hope so bad for more Outlaw changes.. I love the class fantasy..!! Hope for more changes or even reworks..
For me.. my outlaw lives in the mad Max universe.. like a undead cyber punk theme..!! Make it flashy and dirty!!
Assassination fate one is only one that felt ok for me but still more work. btw I suspect not too much will change. Rogues don't leave nearly as much feedback on the forum and they pride themselves in pulling off the most complex inelegant rotation to achieve mediocre damage. If you try to bring elegance into it where you get rid of button bloat and sort of reign them back in them wise( out law less ambush stuff, sub more shadow, assassination more bleed) the community will resist1
to me season 3 crackshot outlaw was the best and most fun iteration of outlaw - ever. they ruined it now with ARR nerfs, Ace nerfs, Crackshot nerfs, secondary stat shinanigans.. i hope they revert the changes - theres nothing like the dopamin i got getting ace proccs back to back in my crackshot window, getting huge cdr and just pumping, sadly theres a loud minority that wants to play combat rogue and just press builders into finishers with bladeflurry up, a loud minority.
Please please do Deathstalker Assassination rogue next!
You are right. I'm not buying WarWithin for this. Why should I? There isn't a single thing to be hyped for. It's a nerf even in comparison to DF gameplay.
Personally I love the crack shot windows on outlaw. Gives the spec some short bursts of damage that it’s really never had. Being built around stealth cooldowns only feels odd because sub also does that, too.
You kinda answered why a lot of people dislike this Outlaw iteration. It's bargin sub rogue with guns.
Can you maybe try the no stealth version of the spec?? That would be awesome! Blizzard is moving away from the stealthy theme and I like that. So no crackshot but going for GS and greenskin
I did for a few dungeons and it was objectively worse. I really wish it wasn't, but I struggled to do damage. Crackshot is so broken because it also Dispatches the target on top of the Between the Eye's that you cast. No other talent is giving you 2 finishers for the price of 1.
Damn.. but thanks for your feedback! Love that you try it all. Would love to see how the non stealth version performs at the Moment.. keep up the great content!
Can u help me cant get details to work in beta?
Yeah outlaw was shit since they’ve introduced all that roll the bones rng bullshit. The hero talents are just the icing on the cake.
I wouldn't worry about the damage, they will sort that out, but jesus christ are these tree's so boring.
Also bring back the simpleness of outlaw in bfa, hasn't been fun since then. stealth bs for outlaw ruins it completely as well.
Rogue has you doing way too much for way too little. Thats why I never play rogue.
The rogue hero specs need a complete overhaul/rework. This is absolutely embarrassing, and whoever came up with this should be ashamed.
Shado-pan for monk could do with a rework as well. Why is the MARTIAL ARTS hero spec just entirely passive??
I think some of the criteria for what constitutes a good hero spec should be.
Changes your rotation/gameplay in a meaningful and positive way
Adds satisfying visuals in line with the theme of the spec
Contributes significantly to your damage output.
The player must've some control over the mechanics of the hero spec, it cannot be 100% passive.
Not 1 of the 3 rogue specs does even 1 of these.
Crazy beta has meta comps already developing and cant test builds.
Why dods ambush do twice the dps of sinister strike? Are u for real?
Outlaw has been melting meters for quite some time, now its others turn to have a tiny spot to shine
Blizzard: Don't worry about the damage, we haven't done final tuning yet. Every TH-camr: WHERE IS MA DAM BLIZZ BLAAAHHH DROOL. Seriously dude...we all know there's gonna be a patch right before launch and rogue, warlock, mages and moonkin are gonna be top damage as they always fucking are. Meanwhile all the other melee, shadowpriests and hunters will be nerfed into the ground. It's a tale as old as time.
You completely miss the point that rogue (hero) specs in general don't work rotationally. It goes way beyond just being undertuned in beta.
You do realize outlaw is about openers and stealth windows. You did neither of those.
lol... That's never what Outlaw should be about. It's a Pirate, not a stealth assassin. We have Sub Rogue for that.
@ZucoWoW it's actually quite fun. They could do a better job with the hero talents, but the playstyle is fun.
Maybe stick to classes you enjoy and understand. :)