Historian Jim Penton discusses Jehovah's Witnesses during the Nathan Knorr/Fred Franz presidencies
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ย. 2024
- There are many little known facts about the character and actions of Nathan Knorr who served as the President of The Watchtower Society following the death of J.F. Rutherford and of Fred Franz who followed him into the era of the modern Governing Body. James will discuss these issues, many of which he has firsthand knowledge.
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Love you so much. I am a witness and watching your videos have been the greatest awakening for me. Thanks I do hope our good God help us not only here in Germany but world wide. Thanks very much.
Hi darling i hope you're finally out by now
It's sooo sad that there are so many views on this video but so many are watching these vids in secret not being able to like the video. This content is GOLD
Yes i sometimes comment, but now I am cautious. Still in but questioning.
We are so fortunate to have Jim in our Bible study group! ❤🙏❤️
You are so fortunate to meet such person.
Thank you brothers for being the vehicle of truth and accuracy regarding the JWs. I've heard some of Jim's interviews in the past, however this series has been my favorite format to hear his research and experience! What a treasure to find for those JWs that are seeking truth about the origin of their beliefs.
1975 End of the World: Failed
1914 Generation teaching: Failed
Overlapping Generation: Failed
3 Strikes and you are out.
add another strike. 1925 was even worse than 1975
Bye! Bye! Watchtower well Biblically one strike is all it takes
Jesus: "No one knows the Day or Hour. Only the Father"
You forgot the 1925 end of the world prediction.
I just got thru watching your video with Jim Penton. Very well done!! My memory goes back---50 years ago, to my experiences at Bethel. a.k.a. Beth-Hell.
At that time Pappy ( N.Knorr ) was quite capable of some long rants. I remember the scene at the breakfast table every morning. The text being read, the comments, and then the ranting of Knorr. Especially if some infraction had taken place, of a sexual nature. I remember him going into detail about the sexual experiences of some Bethelites, going into GRAPHIC DETAIL about what they had been doing. And the whole Bethel family fidgeting in their seats, looking down at the table, some closing their eyes, not saying a word, obviously cringing with embarrassment, while this rant could go on for 45 minutes. You could not forget it.
Now that I am a good bit older, I can look back at how inappropriate and cult-like the whole thing was.
The ones at the top were living in a bubble, and had no idea of what life was like. When you have a place where 1500 young single horny guys are all living, with no permissible sexual outlet, you have a recipe for disaster! And if things are repressed for a long enough time, then when it comes out, it can be explosive. Some of these boys had never been out of their own backyard, and then they are transplanted to the big city, with plenty of opportunities to get in trouble. What so you expect? Everybody was living in a bubble. And every meeting or discussion centered around the 'truth' with no chance to see anything else.
Agape Alitheia You should write a book on your experience in bethel.
Agape Alitheia, just wondering if we were at Bethel at the same time since I remember exactly what you’re talking about. Wasn’t it the summer of ‘69 that we were treated several mornings each week to Knorr going into great detail about the sins of yet another young Bethelite (or rarely a couple) who had been dismissed from Bethel the day before? It’s indelibly etched in my mind how Knorr would conclude each excoriation: “He told us he was a minister ... and we believed him.” Ahhh, the memories. How long have you been out. It’s 20 years now for me. (By the way, I post under my actual name. Did we know each other?)
I used to think I had lost out by not trying to go there. Now I'm so glad I never went to that sh1thole. And those slobs in charge, acting all pious and moral. Pillowgate is probably a result of guys like Geoffrey Action Jackson,. Although claiming he's about to be raptured anytime and is heaven bound, he could go only two years single after his wife passed.
I remember going to Jim Penton's house for bible study in the 70's. I remember being told he was seduced by Satan which I couldn't reconcile in my mind. I always remembered Jim as a kind, respectful, intelligent man. My uncle was disfellowshipped around the same time, Armageddon didn't come...I was 14 years old when I refused to go to anymore meetings.
It's blowing my mind seeing Jim all these years later 😀
That's soooo sweet
Thank you very much for this presentation.
When I was a teenager, a young brother from my congregation went to Bethel. Not having much time to write me, he sent me a thick letter of all his notes from the "new boys talk" along with fervant instructions for me to read all of it and "learn" it, which I dutifully did. I guess he thought that that should keep me occupied for a while. :) Then, very soon after receiving his treasured notes from the "new boys talk", I received another letter from him sternly instructing me to destroy all of those notes I had received from him, and not just to throw them away, but to tear them up before throwing them away,... and not to show them to anybody or to copy them. I could tell that he was in a panic. He said that he had missed the part of hearing that the "new boys" weren't supposed to tell anyone about the information they were receiving. I did as he ordered me to do. Having already read it and committed it to memory, I destroyed and threw away that whole, thick letter of treasured "new boy instructions" without showing it to anyone. That was quite an education for me at age fifteen. Lol.
Sadly, I’ve forgotten most of the specifics from those ‘new boy’ talks Knorr gave us in January 1969. But they were indeed ‘disturbing’ by today’s standards. Knorr had little respect for women, and really had nasty things to say about them, insinuating that they would ruin our lives. One thing I remember him saying without hesitation was that if we new Bethelites remained in our assignments at Bethel through 1975, we would be in the New World! So he was wrong about everything. My (late) wife did not ruin my life-she made it wonderful. And even though I was in Bethel in 1977, the end had still not come, lol.
Richard,
By 1969, the young brother I mentioned had done a few years and had gotten married. Sadly, he died some years back, so we can’t have a big auld lang syne party with him. He didn’t “wake up” before his death, but he will be awake when we next see him.
I really appreciate your mind Doctor Penton . I don’t know if you know how much your words will help those people who have been kept in the dark for more than a century. I feel sorry for those who were never able to know the truth of a cruel organization that mentally torture it members. Unfortunately there are so many clinical cases that have no cure because even if they listen to people like you that are a witness of what really this organization is about, these people are so severe indoctrinated and they are already gone. But hopefully there are many strong people that still wanted to hear words like your to confirm what their intuition has been telling them for years. Thanks so much for the books I definitely will buy them. Thanks Eric so much and please keep up the good work. Continue writing books so people can get the opportunity to gain freedom from these charlatans and specially do it for the children that may fall into the hands of the predators those pedophiles that find this place. This place is designed to harbor criminals because the most important thing for them is the power, money that they obtain from the poor people and the power because when people get indoctrinated by their severe methods of indoctrinations , people put their will into the hands of these hypocrites! They torture people as soon as they see any treat to their man given positions . Most of elders are psychopath , narcissistic people who join these cults just to control people with their delusional teachings. Please do some more research on the money that these charlatans obtain by the millions from poor souls. Thanks so much Dr Penton and Eric we really love your help. May God be with you and at the hour of judgement grants you all the best of his blessings for keeping the mind of the Christ. Christ will do the same expose this charlatans hypocrites ‼️‼️‼️
I looked forward to this 😍
I enjoyed this. I'm almost 61 now. Been out for 20 years.
The Old Schooled Elders told me so much of the rich history when I was only 12 and under.
They were loving. Their eyes were bloodshot when they invited me back into the KH to hear their judgement against me.
Yes All Three were baling Their eyes out because I'd left them no choice than to Disfellowship me. And I was only 16 and they loved me and knew it would destroy me.
The Judicial Community that kicked me out in around 2022 weren't so loving.
The one whose initials are L. P. that knew my marriage, my Family Unit, and everyone I've know for all my life would have to shun me said in all the wickedness in his voice "If I were Susan I'd have left you a Long Time Ago!"
I was already destroyed but Pafford had the need to kick my legs out from under me on my way down.
These were the same loving Sheppards that felt the need to Disfellowship my Dad while Dad had an Awake article that defended him.
Out of Three elders not one wanted to look at Watchtower info to see if their judgement was right.
Just rip his heart out too!
If you want to wake up from the Tower this video will help.
May I ask you what was the reason of your disfellowship back in the days? I find your words very interesting
Same Danny, it distinguished some very good points of theology and of law. Lost my wife in a similar way, a 'sister' former divorcee decided that what God put together, no man but a woman, should rip apart, but it would see the local elders were involved as well. So my wife said 'if I have to choose between you and the organisation, they win' and that was that. So it turns out that women can have emotional relationships with a company! This is a very good video. James is well educated enough to see it for what it is, despite or even due to the intentions of the societies governing body.
Thank you for providing this information. This is good to know.
The wrong thing about the polygamy and other wives being caste out being so devastating to them is a system that makes women dependent on men for their livelihood.
Dawn Emile,
Yes, it is almost impossible for many women to leave their marriages when they are mistreated due to lack of work skills for supporting themselves. And when they try to leave and take along their children, the difficulty is compounded. This is true even for a woman who has been in a monogamous marriage. A woman who wants to escape polygamy likewise has the financial issues to deal with if she leaves.
Even running a home and pioneering was exhausting. If there are health problems, too, then she lives her entire life apologizing for “failing” in every aspect of her life.
@Ranetta Maxwell ,
I see polygamy as slavery. The wife in a polygamous marriage who speaks out against it would be in SOME way punished. If the brothers within the Christian congregation won't denounce the practice, then the women are left to stay in this (what I see as) enslavement, or else to be labeled as a "trouble maker" and to suffer the reprecussions of speaking out. The words, "If you don't like it, you can leave!", echo in my mind. This is the refrain many unloved wives have probably heard. How sad if older men in the Christian Congregation would leave a "first wife" in a polygammous marriage to single-handedly rise up against the immorality and abuse of power embodied in polygamous marriage and denounce polygamy herself to the Christian Congregation. If a sister in a polygamous marriage were to do this, what scriptures could she use in support of her outcry? And if her polygamous and baptized husband opposes her in speaking out against his polygamous marriage to all in the congregation who will listen, would the older men then counsel her that she is "not being in subjection" to her husband?
THE JW ORGANISATION DON'T ENDORSE POLYGAMY AS NEITHER DOES THE BIBLE WHICH THEY FOLLOW ACCORDINGLY.
THE JW'S ONLY FOLLOW MONOGAMOUS MARRIAGE.
THE MORMON'S FOLLOW POLYGOMY, NOT JW'S. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!
IF A JW SPOUSE IS UNFAITHFUL & ITS PROVEN, THAT CULPRIT WILL BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, & IF REPENTANT REINSTATED. THE INNOCENT SPOUSE WILL HAVE SCRIPTURAL GROUNDS TO DEVORCE AS A PERSONAL CHOICE...
I was taught at the Kindom Hall by Watchtower publications that if a person was to give you a glass of water with just one drop of poison ¿ Would you drink it ? Then there answer was no !!! So then the publications said ¿ What kind of worship is acceptable to Jehovah ? And the answer was only pure worship ! Later on I Disagreed with a new Watchtower teaching (That only lasted about 5 years concerning those that would be resurrected would not be able to get married on paradise earth .) After I Disagreed using the scriptures clearly as my guild , I was told by a group of 3 Elders""that it was & is not my Job to interpret scripture , that it is only the Job of the Governing Body to interpret scripture "" That's when I knew something was seriously wrong with the group I was around . Then I studied more and more with a open mind and made the truth my own , the Holy Bible is now my Religion I fall short but I'm not stumbled by others any longer because Gods opinion is the only one I care about and that of his son.
Exemplary evidence that history is badly not in favour of the crumbling cult. Great thanks to you Beroean Pickets. Great thanks to you Penton for your exemplary scholarly works.
Classickruzer1 why are you here do the elders know you are here? That’s okay it’s hard to face the facts. I feel for you being in the fog of Watchtower.
@@classickruzer1 You seemed to be more pitied for being an apologist for a paedophile empire. My candid advice to you is to get a copy of Raymond Franz's "Crisis of Conscience". My personal copy is almost 17 years old. Then you'll be able to identify where you are mentally.
@@classickruzer1 "Fastest growing" because numerous paedophiles and other criminals are getting "baptized" and are finding safe havens in the terrible cult.
@@classickruzer1 Hopefully you're broad-minded and not an intellectually bankrupt individual, as many JWs are, you may have discovered from Watchtower Annual Report 2019 that the growth rate is quite unexpectedly low in percentage, and just nothing to be proud of.
@@Delilahv17 He probably could be one of the hundreds of thousands of paedophiles enjoying a safe haven in the Borg.
I was baptized in 1972 and I remember all these things. You gave a very good talk and thank you very much Jim Penton. I do not know who is the president of WT now ?
First, I want to say that I am using Google translator to make this comment, as I am Brazilian, with little knowledge of the English language.
I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses throughout my childhood and adolescence, and these very informed and timely comments by Professor Jim Penton only reinforce that the best decision I made in my life was to completely disconnect myself from this sect. A pity that everyone who leaves there has to pay the high price of ostracism even within their families.
This videos are very unique. Please make more for people whom don't know the real face of the jehovah witnesses. Thank you
And Jehovah may bless you Faithful Witness Dr Penton . Very lovely on your part 👏👏👏👏👏🙌🙌🙌👏
🧡🧡🧡🧡👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
36:55 It’s ironic the WT has fought for their freedom but they severely punish any publisher who exercises the same freedom they’ve fought for. They are great hypocrites!!
I posted this before but it's worth repeating. In their video on JW.whORG they whine and cry like spoiled little brats about their unjust treatment by the Russian Court when they were banned. They claim the court had already made up its mind and wouldn't listen to their testimony. But, it's the same treatment they dispense to the rank-and-file in their little Kangaroo Court judicial hearings. 🦘🐒🐖🐐
Their father is Satan: the father of the lie and sin!
@@gbnomore3918 Hai centrato il punto ,Io gli auguro il doppio (Come dice in RIVELAZIONE) di processi ingiusti come loro fanno ai loro aderenti, E io sono un di questi ho subito 3 comitati giudiziari ,Io ho ammesso di aver fumato ,ma loro non hanno voluto ammettere che dopo avermi promesso un aiuto spirituale mi hanno abbandonato e disassociato ,però dico adesso è stato un bene per me ,Adesso sto molto meglio .
A million thanks!
I must listen again.
Excellent to hear James Penton's insights from the 1942 to 1992 period under the watchtower presidencies under Knorr & Franz. Knorr basically kicked off his presidency with the "no blood" doctrine as they sold off Beth Shan and Beth Sarim. Milton Henschel was heavily involved as time went on. I remember seeing Henschel with Knorr in that 1954 "New World Society" movie. Knorr was an organization and growth man. Galvanized a lot of the diversity capitalizing on minority populations in addition to spearheading Gilead in 1943 I believe was the first class for missionaries. And Knorr created the "Theocratic Ministry School". More diplomatic toward outsiders yet rough as hell toward Bethelites about marrying - until he fell in love and married Audrey.
Doesn’t the Bible teach against “ forbidding to marry?” The contradictions r impossible to keep up with
As the scriptures say, all things done in the dark; will come out in the light!!
That's just not true.. so much dirt had been taken right to the grave...don't take the scriptures literal my friend
@@TB-mj7gt more than few, and I'll take the scriptures as I see fit.
Thank you Eric and Jim ❤
Another great video! Thank you very much!
I use to attend a hall with Mr Pentons nephew, James. its crazy how small the world is these days.
Let’s get this straight. Elders are not priests and Ministerial servants are not Deacons. Priests and Deacons go to an accredited college to become priests and deacons. That’s a far cry from walking around with a microphone so someone can give an answer or regurgitating something that some propaganda magazine says.
I was tried by a judicial committee of fine canon lawyers, all well qualified men with lengthy experience in paint sales, window cleaning, and floor laying.
Priests and Deacons are practicing false worship.
Regards from South Africa. Thank you for compiling this compelling, fresh and very valuable information...!!
I love hearing him talk
Thank you Bros ! nice addition I was asking and waiting for.Jim's perspective and insight is much appreciated! GB
Please write all the titles of those books. I think that they are a treasure. I would like to have them all ... I love when the mask of the charlatans are removed. Thanks so much Eric and Dr. J. Penton . I love these series of videos.
Didn't WT Attorney Olin Moyle get disfellowshipped by Rutherford in the early 1940's before the organization formally created their disfellowshipping policy in 1952? And I wonder if Knorr had a hand in Hayden Covington's disfellowshipping after his involvement representing Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali?
Interesting to find out that Ali kept himself out of jail . . by following advice from WTS Lawyers! 🤔
@@akatheheretic3014 Another interesting connection is that the cult that
Ali was a member of, the Nation of Islam, was influenced by WatchTower doctrine.
They were very naturalistic and not into any "Holy Spirit" person or even God as a Spirit, which they denigrated as "spookism".
Moyle was disfellowshipped from his congregation in Wisconsin in the late 1930s after resigning and leaving bethel.
Some of Penton’s information in this video is a bit off, as he seems to be presenting from memory.
I know several that have had dealings with Knorr and he would be abusive towards them and really let them know he was boss.
I would bring up that polygamy issue with brothers but it was too much to handle. “Husband of one wife” only mentioned for appointed men.
And same with masturbation... why add laws that are not there? Surely one would not like to add burdens to people based on personal opinion?
It is sad and fascinating to look back at the organisation that controlled my life based on lies for such a long time.
@@classickruzer1 ,
The organization SCAARS is involved in getting protection for victims of child sexual abuse as individuals, in all religions, and in any establishment. scaars.org Because Barbara Anderson had first-hand information of the WT cover-up of pedophilia, this is where she began her courageous work. It was her area of expertise. WT disfellowshipped her for exposing this.
@@classickruzer1 the org is only guilty if they try to cover it up or facilitated it. Which is what happened here AND to the catholics and others. The Jehovas Witnesses in their publications have gone after catholics and others for their abuse when it came to the forefront. The scouts and catholics and others have been outed. NOW is the JW's time. The whole they did it so its OK for us argument is weak !
@@vintage6346 the truth is apostate. LOL
Jesus said that a man's adultery allows his wife to leave her husband, divorce him, and marry another man. Polygamy is adultery for Christians. A polygamist's first wife can leave him, divorce him, and marry another man. This is because the polygamist husband commits ADULTERY when he has sexual relations with the women other than his first wife.
James Penton is WRONG in supporting any polygamy among Christians. Polygamy is ADULTERY for any Christian.
I thoroughly enjoyed the review by James of the WTS presidents. I was a JW for 35 years but resigned under protest of the 144,00O only heaven bound. …among other falsehoods perpetrated by WT.
Raymond Franz wrote two books before his death denouncing JW religion. “Crisis of Consciousness” & “In Search of Christian Freedom”
Thank you for this video. Mr. Penton is such a sincere individual. I bought one of his books (Apocalypse Delayed). @54:30 I wonder what problems of the Watchtower that Mr Penton is "quite prepared to reveal"? Hmmmmm can't wait!
I hope watch tower keeps shrinking into nothing. With the internet today and great videos like this one and all the other information out there about watch tower i can't imagine watch tower getting to many more convert's these days.
Actually it's the opposite!
@@honeybadger-n6k how's that?
@@jeffbuelt6953 third world countries
@@klaasjan111 well they don't have any money... the society needs money.
12:20 I often think that the current and past GB have very unhealthy views of sex. I have not ever heard so much sex talk as I did while attending meetings. Not to mention the weird stuff Ive heard from Tony Tight Pants and the sex talk they give to new Bethelites. And anyone who’s read Crisis Of Concious by Raymond Franz would have to agree their past micromanaging of marital sex practices is disturbing. They definitely seem obsessed with sex.
And it seems many had homosexual tendency’s hmmmm
Welcome back brother Eric, I waited for your video!
In the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses they practice rejecting the blood and body of Christ in the Lord's Supper!
"STOP, LOOK, LISTEN: Luke 8:17 "For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, nor is there anything carefully hidden that will never become known and never come to light." it is part of the new covenant that Jesus made with his disciples to eat the bread that represents his body and drink the wine that represents his blood, how will you have eternal life? (Luke 22:19,20). doctrine of men or the word of GOD?" observe (John ch 3:16,17) 16-“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever exercises faith in him may not be destroyed but have eternal life. 17-For God did not send his Son into the world that he might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through him." observe (John ch 6:53-57) 53- So Jesus said to them, "I say- to you with all certainty: Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 - He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I do. I will rise again at the last day, 55- for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56- Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. Just as the Father who lives sent me and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on me will live because of me. the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". notice what Jesus said: Matthew 23:13 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because they close the kingdom of heaven to men; for you yourselves do not enter, nor do you let in those who are on their way to enter." look at the Conclusion of Jesus (John ch 10: 09,10) 9- I am the door; whoever enters by me will be saved, and will enter and he shall go out, and find pasture.” 10- A thief comes only to steal, and to kill, and to destroy.
the only problem for Jehovah's Witnesses is not to take as an example what Jesus instituted in their memory, which was to eat and drink the emblems in the Lord's Supper! for it is one baptism and one hope of eternal life. Ephesians 4: 4-6 note 4- There is one body and one spirit, just as you were called in a hope to which you were called; 5- one Lord, one faith and one baptism; 6- God, unique and Father of all, who is above all, and through all and in all.
@Eduardo Marcelino -- Jehovah's Witnesses believe many false doctrines made by men, and one of them is the false idea of a great crowd of other sheep with an earthly hope. That is a false hope. The true Christian hope, as you show at Ephesians 4:4, is also at John 1:12,13. By the authority and invitation of Jesus himself, everyone who exercises faith in him can be a child of God who will partake of the bread and wine, and be part of the resurrection of the righteous.
I was always taught that you obey the law unless it goes against God's principles.
Merci james pour ton témoignage et ta connaissance de l organisation !J ai appris beaucoup de choses sur les différents présidents de la watchtower et leur façon de gouverner .Que Dieu te bénisse toi et eric wilson pour votre travail sur la vraie vérité. Merci aussi pour cette vidéo sous-titré en français, il faut vraiment que j apprenne l anglais 😅
Watch this at 1.25 or 1.5 speed then it’s far easier to follow
😂👍
Epic vid as usual, thanks Eric Carter !
Maybe Fred Franz had Asperger's syndrome that's why he was brilliant in some ways and strange in others.
Dawn Emile Or he was trying to hide something.
Franz spoke in broken sentences, a few words at a time, with ‘word whiskers’ or pauses between each set of words. It sounded as though he was listening in his head to someone else speaking in a foreign language and he was struggling to keep up translating it into English (or whatever language he was speaking). It was weird and disconcerting, but we all just assumed that there was so much going on in his incredible brain that we simply could not comprehend it. I don’t think it was Asperger’s, but then I’m no expert. However, in retrospect, I really do not think he was brilliant in any respect. Much of what he was respected for simply came from older theology books in the President’s Office library that we normal Bethelites never had access to.
@@richardwhiting8807 I heard Fred Franz talk for two hours from memory because he was blind. It was too long but I did not hear him speak in the way you describe. I have to speak the truth where it is due.
Dawn Emile, I’m only relaying how he spoke the many many times I heard him, both at the Bethel table and in private settings where I was present. I can’t say there were no instances when he spoke without his usual odd cadence.
@@richardwhiting8807 It sounds like you heard him a whole lot more than I did. The talk I am referring to is one that he gave in the 70's after the failed 1975 prediction. So I will concede that you are probably right.
At 19:40 on the video, Brother Penton says, "Now, curiously, many people may not realize this, but there is no statement in the New Testament which says that polygamy in itself is wrong." I have searched and I have not found any statement in the New Testament which says that polygamy in itself is wrong.
However, I have found one passage that I would like to bring up for the purpose of eliminating it as support for a Christian man having more than one wife. This scripture is 1 Cor. 7:20. It says, "Each one should remain in the situation he was in when he was called." In reading this text and the surrounding verses, no mention is made of a man with more than one wife remaining in that situation and getting baptized as a Christian while still having two or more wives. Circumcision and uncircumcision are mentioned. Slavery and being a free man are mentioned. And having or not having a wife are mentioned. But having more than one wife and remaining in THAT condition is not mentioned. Can we agree that this Biblical passage does not support a polygamist man in becoming a Christian and getting baptized while keeping more than one wife?
Knorr was Pennsylvania German (he spoke that dialect and could joke with German visitors). All human structures are pathological. Millions then living died.
penton is a good man, I like him.
Great video
@42:40 crazy, crazy,crazy about the belief in the return of the "Worthies"
It was an excuse for Rutherford to have his mansion
1 Cor. 7:10,11 says, “To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.”
Matt. 19:9 says, “I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
The scripture in Matthew is referring to a husband not divorcing his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marrying another. Is it fair to reverse the role of the husband and wife in this matter? Can we also say that “anyone who divorces [her husband], except for sexual immorality, and marries another [man] commits adultery.”? The reasoning that I’m about to present requires that this role reversal be scripturally valid and fair in order for my reasoning to “work”.
So, here is a story to illustrate my reasoning. At the end of the story are a few questions. I’m hoping to encourage further investigation into the issue of whether or not, scripturally, a polygamous man should eliminate all wives but the first one in order to qualify to become a Christian.
The Story:
A polygamous man with two wives tells the older men in a current Christian congregation that he and his two wives would like to be baptized as Christians. The older men confer and decide that, because there is no scripture that says a Christian man cannot have two wives, and because the polygamous man already has two wives, they will arrange for the three of them, the polygamous man and his two polygamous wives, to be baptized. One older man baptizes the three people, in the presence of the other older men and other members of the congregation. The older men and the other members of the congregation welcome the three to the congregation as they emerge from the body of water in which they were baptized.
A few days later, the (now baptized) first wife of the polygamous marriage asks to speak with the older men. They agree to meet with her, but only if her husband is also present. So, the first wife and her polygamous husband meet with the older men of the congregation. She tells the older men that that morning, her husband had sexual relations with his secondary wife. The first wife has now decided to divorce her husband “for sexual immorality”, and further, as soon as the divorce is final, she intends to marry a brother in the congregation. She reasons that her polygamous husband’s sexual relations with his secondary wife is “sexual immorality” and that, Scripturally, she is free to remarry.
Did the baptized polygamous husband commit “sexual immorality” when he had sexual relations with his secondary wife? Should the older men agree with the first wife that as soon as her divorce is final, she is scripturally free to remarry? Let’s say that the older men agree with the first wife, that her husband’s sexual relations with the secondary wife free her to remarry as soon as the divorce is complete. (This would also mean that, scripturally, the as yet unnamed brother would not commit adultery when he marries her.) Then, if the polygamous husband committed “sexual immorality” by having sex with his secondary wife, why didn’t the older men mention to him that his sexual relations with her were “sexual immorality”? The older men knew that this was the norm of the polygamous man BEFORE baptizing the three of them.
Would Matthew 23:24 apply to the older men who baptized the polygamous man and his two wives? It says, “You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.”
Thank you, professor, for your storic memory and your impartiality
Thank you so much. This was very informative.
Very interesting historical View ..Thank You !
The internet is not kind to mind controlling cults.
Missing u. Happy to see ur well. Blessings.
Thank you so much.
And my husband was promised his "PET TIGER " as a juvenile recruitment bonus ! And that's why he left at the age of 20 . Somebody lied to him !
😂😂😄😄😂😂 Someone give that man his pet tiger.
@@jiggyone868h
My mother, who was a polio survivor, was promised to walk again Soon! And also a pet elephant. This was in 1953. She died last month in a nursing home. At 93, she was still waiting.
Regarding the fact that the elders must have only one wife, I read another explanation, which seems interesting.
Indeed, it was impossible for a Christian to have several wives, as this was prohibited by Roman law. So it is surprising that Paul could have given this instruction, when in any case, no elder could be polygamous.
The explanation would be this:
The verse says that the elders must be blameless, so that his advice will be of value. He was called to counselling couples who had difficulties, and what values would have had his counsel, if he himself was not faultless?
For example, the Romans used to divorce for a yes or a no. We only have to read the life of the emperors, to realise that they were able to change their wives, as soon as one of them no longer had their favours. No doubt the people followed their example (and the history teach us that it was the case).
Now, this certainly must have taken place also in the congregation. If so, what example would have been given by an elder who divorced without good reason? He would not have been free to speak.
So it may very well be that this commandment from Paul was related to divorce and not polygamy.
What do you think of that explanation?
Baruk,
I like that. Your knowledge of history is most helpful in seeing those verses from a different perspective.
@@vintage6346 Like many verses in the letters of the Apostle Paul, it is important to understand the context of the time, not to see it from the perspective of our twentieth century. For example, Eric Wilson wrote a very interesting article on the role of women in the congregation which contradicts what religions have taught for centuries (It was the first article I read from Eric a few years ago, and which made me keep following his reasoning.).
There are also very interesting explanations that differ from what we have been taught about the woman who must have her head covered. I don't want to pollute this topic, because it's not the subject of the discussion, but it would be nice to discuss it.
According to Jesus, a woman can divorce her husband and marry another man, if her husband commits adultery. A Christian woman can divorce her husband and remarry if her husband is a polygamist, because polygamy is adultery for Christians.
I'm going to have to listen to this again to fully digest what you've said.
Very interesting and informative. Thanks
I've checked Fred Franz was vice president from 1942 until 1977 until he took over as president.
Excellent!!!
Wonderful lecture from the professor. You are so irreplaceable so please, both of you, go into self isolation (with your wife Eric)and allow the children to shop etc for you. Take very great care as you guys are very precious to us.
great job
If Abraham had come back and arived at a JW convention in America, Would he not speak hebrew and be very confused why he Was resurected into a foreign country far away from his grave.. ;)
Very interesting! Greetings from Germany!
Ah, if only there had been an internet during Israelite times. Oh, but they had prophets pointing out all they were doing wrong. There would have been a lot to complain about including putting children in the fire. Prophets were killed or silenced. It didn’t turn out too good for the nation, cast off. Wt isolated themselves especially against legitimate complaints. This means everlasting life taking in knowledge of God and Christ John 17:3. Learn all you can about them and see how they see things and deal with situations. After Jesus comes as a thief you can look back and think oh, that makes sense.
"This means everlasting life taking in knowledge of God and Christ John 17:3." The newest version of the NWT changed that and even removed 10% of the English words! Taking in knowledge did not help the Pharisees because they failed to actually "KNOW" God. They just knew words about God. Big difference. Creation itself declares the glory of our Creator. Psalm 19:1
Thank you
Jim looks rotted out
sad
I appreciate this guy alot
Really like details truthfull info. Looking forward more revelation and justice for the victims of rape and child abuse and trying make sense of all this crazyness !
Jesus warned us all about the teaching of men,But we all fell for it,I still love God & Jesus those,but not in the way watchtower show it.
In the case where a polygamous man requests that a brother come physically from one of the online Beroean groups to baptize him and his “two or more wives”, will this request be fulfilled?
1 Cor. 7:2 says, “But because there is so much sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.” For some who have been living in a polygamous marriage, the idea that the first wife should, scripturally, be entitled to have her “own husband” might be a new idea.
At the synogogue in Nazareth, Jesus read from the scroll of Isaiah. “The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed,19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” 20 Then He rolled up the scroll, returned it to the attendant, and sat down.” Luke 4:18-20.
If I were part of a congregation with a woman in a polygamous marriage, I would tell her that she is not scripturally bound to stay in that polygamous marriage. I would tell her that even if she was her husband’s first wife, she has the scriptural right to leave that marriage if her husband will not send away his other, secondary, wives. I would help her get a divorce, find employment, and find a place to live. As a Christian, I would tell her of Jesus words where he preached “good news to the poor”, and “liberty to the captives”. Jesus was sent to “release the oppressed”. If the woman is a secondary wife in a polygamous marriage, then with the same enthusiasm, I would tell her that she can leave and have her very own husband. I would tell her that there is nothing in the Greek scriptures AT ALL telling her that she should stay in a polygamous marriage. Imagine the good news that this would be to many, many women trapped in a polygamous marriage! And what a joy it would be for me to see those women walk away from their polygamous marriage with a CLEAR CONSCIENCE. No Christian should criticize a woman for leaving a polygamous marriage. If the husband won’t make the decision to keep his first wife and send the others away, then each woman can make the decision for herself whether to stay or to go. Nowhere does God’s Word bind a first wife to stay with a man who takes another wife. And nowhere does God’s Word bind a secondary wife to stay in a polygamous marriage.
Men who want to be called “Christian” and yet are determined to continue living with multiple women in a “polygamous marriage” might not want their wives to listen to me or be around me. I would show their wives the scriptures on marriage.
Your sensitivity to the issue is far more moderate than Knorr's.
@@maximilienzorobabel277,
Max, I couldn't find any scripture that says the already polygamous man must become monogamous (or single) to be a Christian. I hope others are still researching this matter.
The women who are in a polygamous marriage would likely need much help from others to escape polygamy. In some cases, the polygamous husbands become dangerous to the polygamous wife and to those who expend themselves in helping her escape. So, besides showing the woman that Scripturally she has no requirement to stay with the polygamous husband, physical, material help would probably be needed in order for her to actually leave. Help from the police might also be needed.
I'm shocked to hear that went on at the headquarters. I always thought they were extremely moral.
Les sous-titre en Français parfait, merci beaucoup, ce document est d'importance et J Penton, une source fiable, ce qui est appréciable.
WJazzxx says, "The subtitles in French perfect, thank you very much, this document is important and J Penton, a reliable source, which is appreciable."
The new testament speaks against fornication. It's very difficult for countries in Africa etc with regards to conversion when they have more than one wife .
Yes. A polygamist man is an adulterer. The "extra" wives are adultresses. In a polygamist relationship, only the "fiirst wife" is not a practicer of adultery.
In that case, Abraham was an adulterer.
@@BeroeanPickets
No. Julie mentioned the new testament, and my comment is based on Jesus words for Christians.
@@vintage6346 Can you point to a scripture where Jesus says that a man with two wives could not become one of his followers?
@@BeroeanPickets
1 Corinthians 6:9, 10...
"9 Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, 10 or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people-none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God."
The only problem with the judicial committee issue is that at least it's held in private. If an issue was brought before the whole congregation that can be really humiliating for the person involved. As a congregation you could not allow things like sexual immorality etc to just continue. The bible does say the anyone continuing to commit certain things must be removed from the congregation. I would have preferred to have been dealt with by 3 people rather than the whole congregation.
That's human reasoning, @KevinRoseYT. Jesus tell us to bring it before the congregation at Matthew 18:17. So, we've seen that disobeying Jesus has led to many abuses of power, great trauma, and even suicide. Having tried the "let's hold it in private for confidentiality" excuse and seen where it leads, let's do something radical and listen to our only Leader, Jesus Christ, and trust that doing things his way will always work out. That is what faith is about, isn't it?
@@BeroeanPickets Verse 15 says if someone commits a sin speak to him about it. If he listens then all good. If not take along one of two more (verse 16). Again, if he listens all good. If not go to the congregation.
It seems here that the second option is what's going on with the 3 men.
Not sure what it means about going to the congregation though. Gather the whole congregation together?
It does seem to mean that the final decision is for the whole congregation and not for the 3 men. The 3 men can only either decide that the person is repentant and it ends there or it's escalated to the whole congregation. How the congregation decide what to do is not stated in verse 17.
It all seems unclear. This does show, though, that there must be some sort of organizational structure, even if only local, for these events to take place like this. There must be congregations not just a few believers meeting together.
@@KevinRoseYT My next video in the series on Shunning will answer your question
@@BeroeanPickets Brilliant. Thanks.
When I got married to my wife the Elder that talked to us told us that we should only have sex only to reproduce children because if we had sex not wanting to have children that was sinful because we were pleasing ourselves and that God or so I was married to her for 12 years then we got divorced because I couldn't take it no more
Omg. Why bother to marry at all. Someone just plain out lied to you. So sorry you and your wife believed him. That is inexcusable.
I doubt very much that he would have had homosexual leanings. He was probably shocked at what went on with went on with these occasional relationships at headquarters.
That hasn't been the case in the time that I was a witness. Records were kept by elders and if someone was disfellowshipped the reason wasn't read out to the congregation.
Very informative video. WHERE is the video background behind the main speaker??
It's stock footage that I got from stock.adobe.com
I thought you were Eric Wilson, is this a reupload from when you used an alias on here?
Eric Wilson gave the first few minutes of introduction.
My husband and I recently understood polygyny is not condemned (Praise Yah He is unraveling the lies and misconceptions).
According to the Scriptures, the definition of adultery in the Mosaic law, what constituted adultery was if the WOMAN a man had relations with was either married or engaged. It doesn't mention whether the MAN is married or not.
If a married man slept with an unengaged virgin, that would be classified as fornication and he would have to pay a bride price to her father and marry her.
David committed adultery because Bathsheba was married, not bc he was.
And men with multiple wives had to take care of, work for, and provide for all of the wives and their children.
Also the word 'one' in the verse about a man of one wife can also be rendered 'first' or 'one' in the sense of unity. The context was not condemning multiple wives.
At the same time, we know there are problems that happen with polygyny and if we are not already in a marriage like that and polygyny against the law where we are, it would be wise to respect the laws in the land.
Christian men should not have more than one wife, nor should a Christian man have a mistress. Polygamy is a sin for Christians. When a polygamous man becomes a Christian, he should stop having sexual relations with any woman other than his one wife. A polygamous man should only keep his first wife when he becomes a Christian. It is fornication and adultery for a Christian man to have sexual relations with a woman other than his one, first wife. Also, women who used to have sexual relations with a man as his second or third "wives" must stop this practice in order to become a Christian. By Jesus' teaching for his followers, the second and third "wives" would be committing adultery and fornication with the husband of the first wife.
For Christians, polygamy is adultery.
@@vintage6346 Adultery has always Biblically been defined as a man (regardless of marital status) having relations with a woman who is married or engaged.
If a married man were to sleep with a single woman that is not his wife that would still be wrong though because it would be fornication.
There is no Scripture that says a man cannot have more than one wife. The law regulated certain things for men who wanted to take another wife.
God said He would have given David more (wives included, when you read the context) when He reprimanded David about Bathsheba.
Both David and Bathsheba were married but it was adultery because she was married- not because David was.
The Hebrew word etymology of adultery also has to do it the woman if you research it.
I used to think the same thing that a man having multiple wives was a sin until I studied all the Scriptures on the topic and prayed about it and realized (once again) I had been lied to about something the Bible says.
The Bible also talks about men having more than one wife in the future and Jesus also gave a parable with 10 virgins who were to be married to the same man.
There is no Scripture talking about men being told to divorce a second wife in the NT which we would expect if it now suddenly became a sin.
In the OT, men were told to send away additional wives they had taken but it was not on the basis of them being second wives, it was because they had actually divorced their first wives and replaced them with pagan wives from other nations who did not worship God and God was mad both at them introducing pagan worship as well as for forsaking their first wives.
The law was clear that a man could not neglect a wife when he had multiple wives and also they were not to marry women from nations who were involved in false worship.
(The exceptions we see in Scripture of marrying from other nations was when the people did actually become worshippers of the true God and thus essentially became part of Israel in a similar way Gentiles today are talked about being grafted in to Israel in Romans 11.)
Historically, Napoleon was the main person who tried to do away with a man having more than one wife along with other things that were actually Biblical and practiced by the Jews/early Christians.
And even if you look at some of the old US laws that are still on the book in certain states, some states only defined adultery exactly as the Bible does- a man sleeping with a married woman. That goes to show that our ancestors understood the Biblical definition of adultery.
Polygamy was only made illegal federally in the US the 1800s.
All that said, a wife having more than one husband is definitely a sin, as that directly part of the Biblical definition of adultery. And there is no excuse for people trying to do weird stuff like child marriages (whether in polygamy or monogamy.)
I encourage you to pray about this and do more research. God bless. 🙏
@@alishaba-,
I hope that Eric and James Penton will read what you have written and see how unscriptural polygamy is for Christians.
You mentioned “ten virgins” in your comment. At Mathew 25, Jesus was giving a parable, not a prophecy. Eric’s says in this video on Matthew 24, “Remember, this is a parable. A parable is used to instruct us about a moral issue that has real world ramifications.”
Examining Matthew 24; Part 12: The Faithful and Discreet Slave
by Meleti Vivlon | May 15, 2020
“In the next parable, Jesus speaks of the arrival of a bridegroom. As with the faithful and discreet slave parable, we have the chief protagonist being absent but returning at an unexpected time. So, this is yet another parable about the presence of Christ. Five of the virgins were wise and five of the virgins were foolish. When you read this parable from Matthew 25:1 to 12, do you think he’s talking about a small class of people who are wise and another small group who are foolish, or do you see this as a moral lesson that applies to all Christians? The latter is the obvious conclusion, is it not? That becomes all the more obvious when he concludes the parable by reiterating his warning about being alert: “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you know neither the day nor the hour.” (Matthew 25:13)”
Was this filmed at the Peabody library in Baltimore? The background looks very similar
There now exists some software that allows backgrounds to be added behind the speaker.
It is shot against a green screen
My Dad recently told me i hung out with Pentons nephew! LOL.
blew my mind that my old buddies "crazy apostate uncle" was this guy!!
That really is "mind blowing". You might ask Brother Wilson to pass along your regards to Brother Penton. He seems to have a good sense of humor.
amazing insights as usual - I'm curious how JWs in 1936... with no Christmas, Jesus as Michael and no guarantee or promise of Heaven... how would you sell that to Jews ?
- tell them what God's Name is ? the Catholic name for YHWH ? - would also like to see the Nuremburg Laws and Kristalnacht to compare how easy JWs had it outside the camps
I never read anything like this in Ray Franz's book.
Eric, I've written an article in rebuttal of minutes 19:15 through minutes 21:55 of this Penton video. My article is entitled "Polygamy is a Sin for Christians", and is available on Lori Jane's website. I would like to include a link to my article here in this comment, but I think your spam filter is set to block links to her website.
No, I have no spam filter. TH-cam does have spam filters, but I have no control over them.
Fred Franz was president after Nathan Knorr wasn't he from 1942 onwards
Who lives in beth sarim now?
Where can i go to whorship God if there's no other place to do so ?
The Bible might not say anything about "masturbation" however, you try masturbating with out having lustful thoughts, Jesus said if you look at a woman lustfully you have committed adultery, how do you do the act without lustful thoughts?
I TRIED to watch the man speak... but all the "uh's" were too distracting. I fear that my future holds this sort of impairment, because of my own brain injury. 😕
You might try listening at 1.25X speed. You lose nothing. Even at 1.50X speed, it's almost completely intelligible.
The WT calendars of the early 70s would not have seemed out of place coming from The Gay Times.
Jim Penton, What about all the subliminal images of demons, beasts, serpents hidden in pictures in JW magazines and books?
This is off subject, but have you heard???? In Colorado, the witnesses are closing the doors to meetings, assemblies, door to door service, the Passover 😳 and rumored to be selling the Kingdom Halls 🤷🏻♀️
Because of COVID-19 ?
@@maximilienzorobabel277 No. I've lived in this state for over 20 years, in a nice bedroom community on the edge of a city of around 600,000 people (not counting the suburbs). JWs would only come by my house every 2 - 3 years. Then they stopped coming around 5 years ago and I haven't seen one in the neighborhood at all. We DO see the occasional set of Mormon missionaries, though, so it isn't like I've missed the JWs at my door.
Apparently the Watchtower Society has closed at least a dozen kingdom halls in this city within the last few years. States like Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Arizona and maybe Oregon are considered the "West", and the ratio of atheists to the general public is higher in these states than in the rest of the USA. So I'd guess that with the "yang wunz" leaving and few if any new adult converts being drawn in, the JWs are losing significant numbers of people, especially in the western states.
Sex, drugs & sidechicks - the lifestyle of a 1940's Jehovah's Witness!🤣😂
Freda Franz is also IMO the ONE a person who fabricated the false doctrine of only 144,000 are supposed to become ONE with Christ and Father Yahweh via Holy Spirit adoption. He single handedly ‘translated throughout the NT at he descriptive, “ in you” according to the Greek expression that the Holy Spirit, God, and Jesus come inside our physical bodies to dwell when we are born of the Spirit, to the vague and confusing…”in Union with”, as if it is a mental agreement not a metaphysical experience as is shown by those 1st century Christians all did when they received this transformation, evidenced by speaking in tongues.
We Scott and Hort’s Bible , Kingdom Interlinear, was on one side, and WT’s NEW WORLD TRANSLATION on the opposing side clearly showed how Franz hijacked the translation of Wescott and Hort to perpetuate the ‘ only 144,000’ are born again and enter the heavens father they die or at Jesus return.
This was the straw that broke the camels back for me.
You have to check out video called the great salvation 52mis channel is SOS out of dark Ness is about truth of saved you won't be disappointed it's about Angeles Hebrews 1and 2 and 2thess 1and 8