Good luck friend - chronic shoulder pain sufferer of 5+ years (6? 7? Idefk anymore). Protip: I bought 2 keyboards to use as left/right, allowing for external shoulder protraction. I’d imagined they’d be tough to use, but it took ZERO adjustment, and perhaps may even be more efficient. For context: I am a software developer, and type at 130wpm. I have noticed ZERO complications efficiency-wise (and, again, perhaps even gains). I’ve also bought and mounted 2 VESA monitor mounts (the pneumatic kind, which are typically made for holding monitors), both equipped with “tablet holders” (basically metal trays with lips) at the VESA mounting point. I attached those to my chair, and put the keyboards on them. I now have 100% adjustable keyboards which are completely agnostic to any desk setup. The keyboard arms (dunno what else to call them) were attached where the chair arms USED to go. They’re a perfect fit, and I’d had to jank something together years ago for them and (unlike most things in my life) it just actually worked perfectly. I have no idea how to describe what the hell I did, because it involved a metal saw, an aggressive amount of percussive maintenance, and a lot of swearing. The downside, however, is that until I get around to my future modification (attaching desk arms while ensuring it’s still structural/load bearing and won’t collapse), I can’t rest my arms on anything. That sucks, but it’s still absolutely worth the tradeoff. But it REALLY sucks (hence the future plans). I did something similar with my mouse, but that’s a little more complicated. I bought a similar VESA monitor mounting arm, but without the tray. I attached a precisely 5 pound steel plate (square, but circular would really better). The weight is perfect for the pneumatic joints of the arm, as it holds it in place without being too heavy (causing the arm to dip) or too light (causing the arm to raise). I then attached this to a metal boom (roughly 2 feet long? I forget the exact metrics), which had a mounting point at one end and a cylindrical collar at the other (the collar was just enough to fit around the central shaft of the chair, which connects to the wheel base). This required some welding/fabrication, and is likely less available to anyone (everything else can be bought on Amazon). The boom was then attached to the wheel base of the chair (just above the wheel base, on a ball-bearing which I’d bought to be a snug fit around the wheel base’s central shaft. This hasn’t cured my pain, but it’s helped it reverse somewhat, and most importantly it’s stopped my pain from getting worse. I used to be out of commission for hours every night, stretching this way and that, trying in vain to just not hurt. I don’t have to do that anymore. There have also been some additional posture modifications I’d made to give me better lumbar support (until I finally bite it and drop $1,500 on a nice chair). Dunno if that’s any use to you, but if it is and you need more info PM me or whatever the TH-cam equivalent is. Good luck, friend.
I had wondered many times about these issues! But I could never find good reliable guidance on things like what would be the best ergonomic position of the keyboard, the mouse, the screen...so thank you immensely for explaining these so clearly! Because of the nature of my job, I also need to work with printed documents occasionally and encounter the problems that you mention. I shall try a document holder. Brilliant suggestion!
Amazing channel! I'm 21 and work from home 8 hours a day. I've learned so much, and I hope my back discomfort and bad posture finally get fixed after watching your videos! Thank you very much for such good content for free here on TH-cam.
please can you tell me what was the exact solution for you neck pain ? i have it for more than a year and it doe'snt wantt to disappear, was it the mouse beiig to much on the right side ?
I'm a 20 year old student and is currently having issues with sore neck and shoulders... I had very poor posture as I use my laptop and tablet half of the day and both of them don't give a nice angle for viewing the screen with a correct posture. While my laptop screen is small and I have to split the screen into at least 2 applications at the same time since I need to cross reference things a lot, which makes the view even smaller. I have a tendency to lean forward to read the contents of the screen and also tightening my shoulders to get support for that posture. Had tried using the tablet as a second monitor and it improved slightly, but still I don't think laptops were meant for all-day use as the screen angle gives me a tendency to lean my body forward. After watching a few of your videos, I'm finally investing in an external monitor and keyboard! Hope this will help with my soreness, I'm still very young! 😂
I had recently changed my work station and since then experienced acute shoulder pain. I knew it had to do something with my mouse use but couldn't figure out what exactly. This was so helpful.. you have no idea .. thankyou so much !
Such an informative video. I have bursitis in my shoulder from 4 years ago from mouse movement - it never healed. Since then, I have done so much erganomically since (I mostly stand now).. But my old workplace didn't care so much about erganomics. I have been using an erganomic keyboard and mouse for a years. Noticed I keep moving the keyboard up for the mouse to be close to me.. And have just purchased a new erganomic keyboard with no number pad.
Super helpful videos, merci mille fois, Olivier! Excellent point about keyboard width. My colleagues all use the 100% keyboard provided by the company even though they never need the numpad, I'm the only one to use a 65%. For me the best ergonomic update was to ditch the mouse in favour of a large trackball and to use a gel wrist rest in front of it. All the issues I had with my wrist and fingers went away.
Now that I've made these corrections are there any exercises or stretches I can do to alleviate the pain in my shoulder from overusing that poor external rotation posture from having my mouse too far out to the side?
I have a reversed question 😅: what makes you think that training forearm / wrist / hands strength would help people who type feel better? Give it a short thought, and then watch this video: th-cam.com/video/uZIRF5IL9ag/w-d-xo.html Then, here is my suggestion: rather to the upper body reset - th-cam.com/video/LdDnb3Miwss/w-d-xo.html
You're welcome dear!! there are 2 videos you need to watch... - scalene pain: th-cam.com/video/nzY_zHLNV6k/w-d-xo.html - how to deal with forward head posture: th-cam.com/video/9a5wkLnd54I/w-d-xo.html I hope they bring you food for thoughts!!
Dear Olivier, great video! Although I am a fetishist of ergonomiscs, your observsation that keyboard with numpad and mouse is too wide is so obvious and eyeopening :) plus I have a notepad on the left side (I’m left-handed). I wanted to ask what chair is this? I am interested in purchasing a good chair, been looking to X-Trans chair, but it seems that yours can adjust the armrests back and forth, not only up an down, and as such bring the sitter closer to the table.
Really intereting , espcially the position of the keyboard to arms . V useful . I wonder however about people with piles ( haemeroids ) what type of seat is best ? Thanks Simon
Good question, Simon... I think that the best is seat with a cut in the mid-butt area (aka pudendal seats). You can have them as cushions, or on some chairs as built-in seat pans. It looks like this: www.amazon.com/Cushions-High-density-Support-Sciatica-Orthopedic/dp/B076BMRNHB/ref=sr_1_15?keywords=pudendal+nerve+cushion&qid=1648929729&sr=8-15 (I don't know this very model, though). Do you think that this could help?
Hello! Thank you very much for your videos. These are the most informative videos on TH-cam! Tell me please, what do you think about table top with cut out for the body on the front side?
Great question, thanks a lot for it! Here is my take on that: - often, I don't see the point of these cut outs: they are often meant to come closer to your desk... but what's the real point of it (th-cam.com/video/DCWI0v5gx-w/w-d-xo.html)?? - too narrow cut outs may interfere with your mobility (in part. due to the armrests) - in theory, they should help you deal with wide workspaces. In practice, you will tend to turn your upper body but not your legs, i.e. create spinal torsion. All in all, I have used them sometimes e.g. for reception desks (one screen in front and a client on the side, but still in the visual field angle). But for most people, you don't need them; rather, you should investigate if the reasons why you have one make sense... Does this help :) ?
i tend to always widen my arms like v shape to hold mouse while playing game and it hurts my shoulder but if i move my arm to 90 angle then i feel like my range is limited...
I use a split ergonomic keyboard because I have broad shoulders (not for the number pad) and i feel that it lets me keep a more neutral wrist posture, but I know exactly what you mean about the mouse. Seems like a worthwhile tradeoff since most of my work is on the keyboard, but I do wish there was a better way to combine both. Also, I am curious in your desk setup, your monitor height seems lower than what I see commonly recommended - is that just a consequence of the desk setup you have, or do you have a different thought on this?
When you talk about seated posture you mention the latissimus dorsi activating and you aren't using the back of the chair. Is this something that can actually be maintained throughout the day? Wont the muscles tire?
Wait a sec... I am using the back of the chair. The lower part of it, which therefore needs to be of an extremely high quality. Once this condition is met (which isn't the case on many cheap chairs), the lats can hold it for a while but: - not forever (i.e. you should get up twice an hour at least) - maybe not right away. You need to recondition them patiently - not if you are 12 hrs a day on your chair. The usual recommendation is that from the moment you wake up till the moment you go to bed, you spend 50% of your time sitting, 50% standing. Makes sense?
@@OlivierGirard Thanks! This makes sense! Basically I need to condition the muscles and then alternate postures. My work requires me to be at the desk for most of the day, but I have an adjustable desk. I saw another video of yours on moving around while you stand. I'm wondering if you think there's any benefit of using a walking pad at the standing desk over just shifting around. For your courses, I'm wondering why access is limited to a certain period of time. It seems like it might be something I'd want to go back and reference.
Hello. I work as a translator and I spend all my days sitting and touch typing. I love your videos and I started to apply your tips but at the same time I am wondering, how long would it take to get used to the correct sitting posture. For now it feels like a torture.
Well, my friend... the duration of the journey depends on where you depart from, and what vehicle you have 😅... when I went through the therapy back then, it took me 2 months. But that's just me...
For the past six months I’ve had what feels like a pinched shoulder and it HURTS. I’ve been doing all this though but it is actually my left shoulder which I can’t understand since it’s not my mouse hand. I recently raised my monitor too with no luck from the pain. Any help would be great 👍
I know... sometimes you need someone to have a closer look at what you are really doing. There are 2 things I can do to help individually at a distance: Whatsapp hotline (send pics and I comment) or online consultation. The two can be purchased here: oliviergirard.ch/en/shop/
hi Olivier as I have numerous issues such as triggerpoints in scalene and traps beside reworking on my posture I seem to find the more stretching the more knots I get will these be of use ....am I best to try and release some of the tightness first. I have been using spray and stretch techniques but can't seem to get the knots to release The only thing I haven't tried is doing the scalene and trapezius stretching you demonstrated more than twice a day I do suspect tos as my symptoms have got worse since acdf surgery four months ago
I don't want to play smart ass, Andy, but one key question is always: do you really have numerous issues, or do you observe multiple facets of one same issue? The muscles that you cite tend to develop trigger points hand in hand (because when the head shifts forward, the scalene are shortened and the upper traps are lengthened, which in the context of holding the head are 2 causes of trigger points). What I often see is that indeed, the tissues are more fragile after surgery, and that the post-op pain creates new bad habits that add to the old bad habits. The combination of all this makes people feel more fragile indeed. To give you an indication: I now tend to tell my patients that I want them to act on their muscles every 2 hours, esp. in terms of relaxation. They alternate between warm shower, heat pack, warm gel, TENS, etc. but I want something every 2 hours. This type of extreme frequency shows great results... but it requires a lot of self-discipline!!
I'm sorry to say ... I'm not trying to be an expert over though having talked with ergonomists before... its not everybody that agrees (not directly disagreeing either) about not resting the underarm on the table... I'm a graphical designer (well software developer too) so I'm working equally as much with the mouse as well as the keyboard... I agree with what you said about keyboard... To me eas simply just solved with positioning the keyboard more to the side when I mainly used the mouse... (simple solution but you ofc need to be aware and pay attention ... that's why I like your video here)..... However I have had elevation tables which curves "inward" and I have been resting my underarms on the table to my experience that's better than using the chair armrests only in fact I didn't have chair armrests at all.... (but maybe that's OK too).. no matter what my point is which I cannot emphasise enough is... Non of this is very simple and straight forward and therefor most important to be aware and pay attention to your body... but however in my experience working that much with mouse which I have done (many many percentage above average use of the mouse) then it gets even more important to have your underarms rested well equally so at same level of the wrist so the wrist is as relaxed as it can be... because using the mouse is what gives most strain to the wrist area (in worst case causing a "mouse arm") ... I do like all you say with the shoulders and you also had some new points I didn't think alot ablut before 👍 however being a practical user for more than 20 years with heavy mouse usage daily then I cannot emphasise enough how important it is to pay attention to also having good rest for the underarms too... there I feel you are a bit locked into position with having to use the chair armrests ... All I'm saying here is not that I don't agree I do... But I also just same time wanna say we should not make things too simplified either (that's a pitfall if we do instead of being aware)... and in my book to my experience I cannot emphasise enough with heavy mouse usage how important it is having the underarms well relaxed on the same level as your wrists (something a chair with armrests doesn't always allow)
Hello, are you saying that you prevent shoulder pain by having the underarms (forearms?) relaxed on an elevated table? You also mentioned a table that "curves inward." Are you referring to a drafting table?
It is working thank you! It is so simple. I simply make sure that my complete forearms are on the desk rather than sitting back and using the arm rests.
@meliemel2113 yeah I don't have problems with shoulders but you ofc need to be aware as the most important thing... but if u ask me its more important to be aware of your arms when working with the mouse alot (underarm need be on same level as the wrist for the arm you work with the mouse) .. Im talking about professional computer desks
@meliemel2113 good to hear you are welcome... please mind it's not a total solution that's "bulletproof" .. if you work with the mouse alot you need be much aware still and also maybe take alot of shorter breaks during the day
@meliemel2113 (I tried to send links to some example of tables but seems yutube don't like that... I worked mostly with customised made tables ... but they maybe are called curved elevation table try a Google search and see)
Great question! The impact will be an increase of wrist extension (i.e. bending the wrist back), which contracts the wrist extensor muscles (responsible for tennis elbow aka lateral epicondilytis) and of pressure in the carpal tunnel. Both are due to the keyboard angle. It's also the reason why it's recommended to not use the feet at the back of the keyboard.
I have started following your advice and sitting at 90 degrees between thighs and dorso, which seemed unattainable to me, is now my habit. But I fear that sitting badly for so many years has affected by latissimus dorsi because now with a correct posture I feel very much tension in my right one. I would like to if there are any stretches that you recomend doing during the workday. Thanks.
Hey dear!! I think that you should watch these 2 videos: - th-cam.com/video/BOUxzp7QVJ0/w-d-xo.html, which has unfortunately stayed quite confidential - the exercise that you should do 10-15 times a day: th-cam.com/video/LdDnb3Miwss/w-d-xo.html Let me know if this helps!!
Thank you for your videos. Very helpful for typing. I'm wondering if you have any advice for drawing tablets and seperate screens? Is this the same position as the keyboard? I have seen many recommend a sloped surface like an easel? Also do you think any of your advice for posture would be different for hypermobile people? Thank you so much.
Hey, thanks for the feedback! Indeed, drawing tablets can be tilted slightly. But not too much, otherwise you create a wrist lateral deviation. They should also be placed in front of the dominant hand, not in the middle like a keyboard. Reg. posture advice: no, I have the same advice for hypermobile people. That's because the advice I give aims at distributing optimally the load on the tissues, and that's the same for everyone. Hypermobile people should mainly be careful with stretching... never stretch an hypermobile joint. Makes sense?
I am trying to follow your suggestions, both from TH-cam and from The Posture Manual, step by step adjusting my posture. I have just one problem. When I sit on my office chair (Kinnarps 5000) trying to keep the correct position of the feet, knees, pelvis, back and arms, after a few minutes of typing I feel pain in my left scapula (I am right handed). What could be the reason of this?
Hey Greg! I would look at this type of pain as either shoulder forward or shoulder elevated. As it's left, I'm wondering if you tend to rest your left forearm or elbow on the table. The other solution is that you're too close to your desk, which creates tension between the shoulder blades. Can you check these two and let me know?
@@OlivierGirard Dear Olivier. Thank you for your answer. After observing it for some time I noticed that the pain occurs on both shoulder blades. I have a sliding keyboard shelf under my desk at a hight of about about 65 cm. When I type I frequently rest my palm pads on this shelf which works as a wrist support. I must look for a video where you explain the correct position of arms while typing. It feels like there is too much weight hanging on my shoulders.
@@asiastasiak6201 Hello my dear... sorry for this late reply! 65 cm seems quite low: for 90% of the Western population, the ideal desk height is between 68 and 76 cm. Hence, 65 cm can happen, but it's really quite low. And a too low desk / keyboard tray can give this feeling that you have. Check out this video on how to adjust your desk height and let me know if it rings a bell: th-cam.com/video/Tse6AWnVgpY/w-d-xo.html :)
is that logitech keyboard good? I bought it and it causes pain in my thumb, I'm wondering If I'm using it wrong, I noticed it's a bit taller angle than other keyboard...what should I do?
Honestly, I also found it difficult to get used to. I wonder why it causes this thumb pain though... do you think it's linked to how you hit the space bar?
It feels very difficult to use the keyboard without resting your elbows, forearms or wrists. I naturally want to rest my wrists on the front of my desk; with a fist length inbetween my belly button and desk front.
well, the thing here is that you might miss a bit of a dynamic vision: whilst I'm trying to find the best way to answer your comment, - I'm thinking a lot (OK, I know it's hard to figure it out😂!!): my wrists can rest on the desk - I'm typing a bit: my wrists need to float on top of the desk. And on and off, like this. Does this make any sense??
This video is gold!! I'm suffering for a lot of time and I use this exact wide keyboard and ergonomic mouse, I'll switch keyboards immediately. Do you have something for standing desk ergonomy to mitigate this shoulder pain?
The only thing I would take from this video is the what to avoid part. I don’t agree with anything at this video besides that, how you position your arms really depends on the desk height and the chair type and a lot more small details which weren’t mentioned at all
Thank you so much - this solved my years-long trapezius and shoulder blade) pain :) all the best
This guy is a god of posture teaching. I hope I can finally cure my pain, 5 years with shoulder and aem pain already...
Good luck friend - chronic shoulder pain sufferer of 5+ years (6? 7? Idefk anymore).
Protip: I bought 2 keyboards to use as left/right, allowing for external shoulder protraction. I’d imagined they’d be tough to use, but it took ZERO adjustment, and perhaps may even be more efficient.
For context: I am a software developer, and type at 130wpm. I have noticed ZERO complications efficiency-wise (and, again, perhaps even gains).
I’ve also bought and mounted 2 VESA monitor mounts (the pneumatic kind, which are typically made for holding monitors), both equipped with “tablet holders” (basically metal trays with lips) at the VESA mounting point.
I attached those to my chair, and put the keyboards on them. I now have 100% adjustable keyboards which are completely agnostic to any desk setup.
The keyboard arms (dunno what else to call them) were attached where the chair arms USED to go. They’re a perfect fit, and I’d had to jank something together years ago for them and (unlike most things in my life) it just actually worked perfectly. I have no idea how to describe what the hell I did, because it involved a metal saw, an aggressive amount of percussive maintenance, and a lot of swearing.
The downside, however, is that until I get around to my future modification (attaching desk arms while ensuring it’s still structural/load bearing and won’t collapse), I can’t rest my arms on anything. That sucks, but it’s still absolutely worth the tradeoff. But it REALLY sucks (hence the future plans).
I did something similar with my mouse, but that’s a little more complicated. I bought a similar VESA monitor mounting arm, but without the tray.
I attached a precisely 5 pound steel plate (square, but circular would really better). The weight is perfect for the pneumatic joints of the arm, as it holds it in place without being too heavy (causing the arm to dip) or too light (causing the arm to raise).
I then attached this to a metal boom (roughly 2 feet long? I forget the exact metrics), which had a mounting point at one end and a cylindrical collar at the other (the collar was just enough to fit around the central shaft of the chair, which connects to the wheel base). This required some welding/fabrication, and is likely less available to anyone (everything else can be bought on Amazon).
The boom was then attached to the wheel base of the chair (just above the wheel base, on a ball-bearing which I’d bought to be a snug fit around the wheel base’s central shaft.
This hasn’t cured my pain, but it’s helped it reverse somewhat, and most importantly it’s stopped my pain from getting worse. I used to be out of commission for hours every night, stretching this way and that, trying in vain to just not hurt. I don’t have to do that anymore.
There have also been some additional posture modifications I’d made to give me better lumbar support (until I finally bite it and drop $1,500 on a nice chair).
Dunno if that’s any use to you, but if it is and you need more info PM me or whatever the TH-cam equivalent is.
Good luck, friend.
This video had everything I was looking for, short and sweet, but also in depth. Thank you for making this!
I had wondered many times about these issues! But I could never find good reliable guidance on things like what would be the best ergonomic position of the keyboard, the mouse, the screen...so thank you immensely for explaining these so clearly!
Because of the nature of my job, I also need to work with printed documents occasionally and encounter the problems that you mention. I shall try a document holder. Brilliant suggestion!
Remember dear… when you doubt, just ask: you get the answer if I know it, and I get new ideas for fresh content: win win!!
this is great - actually explains the 'why' and not just the 'what'
Amazing channel! I'm 21 and work from home 8 hours a day. I've learned so much, and I hope my back discomfort and bad posture finally get fixed after watching your videos! Thank you very much for such good content for free here on TH-cam.
Thank you. This is by far the best explanation on TH-cam that explains why I have neck pain, complete with actual solutions on how to correct it.
please can you tell me what was the exact solution for you neck pain ? i have it for more than a year and it doe'snt wantt to disappear, was it the mouse beiig to much on the right side ?
The quality of the sound has improved tremendously in your last 2 videos. Thank you for looking into it and getting this fixed.
Thank you for the feedback 😊🙏🏻🙏🏻!
I'm a 20 year old student and is currently having issues with sore neck and shoulders...
I had very poor posture as I use my laptop and tablet half of the day and both of them don't give a nice angle for viewing the screen with a correct posture.
While my laptop screen is small and I have to split the screen into at least 2 applications at the same time since I need to cross reference things a lot, which makes the view even smaller. I have a tendency to lean forward to read the contents of the screen and also tightening my shoulders to get support for that posture.
Had tried using the tablet as a second monitor and it improved slightly, but still I don't think laptops were meant for all-day use as the screen angle gives me a tendency to lean my body forward.
After watching a few of your videos, I'm finally investing in an external monitor and keyboard! Hope this will help with my soreness, I'm still very young! 😂
I had recently changed my work station and since then experienced acute shoulder pain. I knew it had to do something with my mouse use but couldn't figure out what exactly. This was so helpful.. you have no idea .. thankyou so much !
Such an informative video. I have bursitis in my shoulder from 4 years ago from mouse movement - it never healed. Since then, I have done so much erganomically since (I mostly stand now).. But my old workplace didn't care so much about erganomics. I have been using an erganomic keyboard and mouse for a years. Noticed I keep moving the keyboard up for the mouse to be close to me.. And have just purchased a new erganomic keyboard with no number pad.
Super helpful videos, merci mille fois, Olivier!
Excellent point about keyboard width. My colleagues all use the 100% keyboard provided by the company even though they never need the numpad, I'm the only one to use a 65%.
For me the best ergonomic update was to ditch the mouse in favour of a large trackball and to use a gel wrist rest in front of it. All the issues I had with my wrist and fingers went away.
@6:20 brilliant, I really needed to hear this issue put into words!
This is a subtle one indeed 😅!
Thank you so much for your video. I have one question: would you recommend an ergonomic mouse? A vertical mouse or a trackball for instance.
Thank you so much. I have majored shoulder pain because I use more mouse that is further away from me.
... and you could have detected it with my new free online workplace assessment. Give it a try: ergoh-conseil.typeform.com/self-assessment !!
Greetings from El Salvador, October 2022. I´m gonna make some adjustments to my workspace.
A good tip imo is to use table with sliding keyboard trays if you can
This explains so much! Im going to change my keyboard to the one without the numeric block!
And bear in mind that you can always buy a separate numeric keypad that you plug on your USB ports when you really need it 😄 !
First time watching, subscribed immediately! Thanks for the quality content 👍🏻
This was SOOO helpful - wow. Hoping some of these changes can help my tendonitis!
thank you!!!
Now that I've made these corrections are there any exercises or stretches I can do to alleviate the pain in my shoulder from overusing that poor external rotation posture from having my mouse too far out to the side?
Brilliant! Thank you. This helps. I have subscribed for more.
I recommend also to learn no look typing. There is some websites for training.
What weight training exercise can be done to improve strength of the muscles for people who do a lot of typing?
I have a reversed question 😅: what makes you think that training forearm / wrist / hands strength would help people who type feel better? Give it a short thought, and then watch this video: th-cam.com/video/uZIRF5IL9ag/w-d-xo.html
Then, here is my suggestion: rather to the upper body reset - th-cam.com/video/LdDnb3Miwss/w-d-xo.html
Can you why bend my wrist to the right when i use mouse? Thank you. Please help
Thanks for this video! I suffer from upper crossed syndrome related to extensive laptop usage daily.
You're welcome dear!! there are 2 videos you need to watch...
- scalene pain: th-cam.com/video/nzY_zHLNV6k/w-d-xo.html
- how to deal with forward head posture: th-cam.com/video/9a5wkLnd54I/w-d-xo.html
I hope they bring you food for thoughts!!
Dear Olivier, great video! Although I am a fetishist of ergonomiscs, your observsation that keyboard with numpad and mouse is too wide is so obvious and eyeopening :) plus I have a notepad on the left side (I’m left-handed). I wanted to ask what chair is this? I am interested in purchasing a good chair, been looking to X-Trans chair, but it seems that yours can adjust the armrests back and forth, not only up an down, and as such bring the sitter closer to the table.
Is TKL considered as a compact keyboard? Should i buy 75% if I have TKL?
I know, he’s changing my life 1 video at a time.
😍
Really intereting , espcially the position of the keyboard to arms . V useful . I wonder however about people with piles ( haemeroids ) what type of seat is best ? Thanks Simon
Good question, Simon... I think that the best is seat with a cut in the mid-butt area (aka pudendal seats). You can have them as cushions, or on some chairs as built-in seat pans. It looks like this: www.amazon.com/Cushions-High-density-Support-Sciatica-Orthopedic/dp/B076BMRNHB/ref=sr_1_15?keywords=pudendal+nerve+cushion&qid=1648929729&sr=8-15 (I don't know this very model, though). Do you think that this could help?
Hello! Thank you very much for your videos. These are the most informative videos on TH-cam!
Tell me please, what do you think about table top with cut out for the body on the front side?
Great question, thanks a lot for it! Here is my take on that:
- often, I don't see the point of these cut outs: they are often meant to come closer to your desk... but what's the real point of it (th-cam.com/video/DCWI0v5gx-w/w-d-xo.html)??
- too narrow cut outs may interfere with your mobility (in part. due to the armrests)
- in theory, they should help you deal with wide workspaces. In practice, you will tend to turn your upper body but not your legs, i.e. create spinal torsion.
All in all, I have used them sometimes e.g. for reception desks (one screen in front and a client on the side, but still in the visual field angle). But for most people, you don't need them; rather, you should investigate if the reasons why you have one make sense...
Does this help :) ?
I absolutely love this videos. Thank you so much for doing them!
What is the model of this mouse that you use it in the video?!
Logitech Mx vertical 😄
GREAT VIDEO ! is the shoulder pain caused by the trap muscles overloading or tensing too much?
i tend to always widen my arms like v shape to hold mouse while playing game and it hurts my shoulder but if i move my arm to 90 angle then i feel like my range is limited...
I use a split ergonomic keyboard because I have broad shoulders (not for the number pad) and i feel that it lets me keep a more neutral wrist posture, but I know exactly what you mean about the mouse. Seems like a worthwhile tradeoff since most of my work is on the keyboard, but I do wish there was a better way to combine both. Also, I am curious in your desk setup, your monitor height seems lower than what I see commonly recommended - is that just a consequence of the desk setup you have, or do you have a different thought on this?
When you talk about seated posture you mention the latissimus dorsi activating and you aren't using the back of the chair. Is this something that can actually be maintained throughout the day? Wont the muscles tire?
Wait a sec... I am using the back of the chair. The lower part of it, which therefore needs to be of an extremely high quality.
Once this condition is met (which isn't the case on many cheap chairs), the lats can hold it for a while but:
- not forever (i.e. you should get up twice an hour at least)
- maybe not right away. You need to recondition them patiently
- not if you are 12 hrs a day on your chair. The usual recommendation is that from the moment you wake up till the moment you go to bed, you spend 50% of your time sitting, 50% standing.
Makes sense?
@@OlivierGirard Thanks! This makes sense! Basically I need to condition the muscles and then alternate postures. My work requires me to be at the desk for most of the day, but I have an adjustable desk. I saw another video of yours on moving around while you stand. I'm wondering if you think there's any benefit of using a walking pad at the standing desk over just shifting around. For your courses, I'm wondering why access is limited to a certain period of time. It seems like it might be something I'd want to go back and reference.
Hi, how do I make sure im actually using latissimus dorsi correctly and not holding my arms in the "air"? Thanks!
you can feel the lats when you sit properly, as I show here: th-cam.com/video/TOd_e5iZ9tM/w-d-xo.html
I need an immediate action :( Thnx man , subscribed :)
Good explanation thank
Great video, thanks a lot
Superb video.
Thank you !!
Good good thanks
But I don't have pc
I have a laptop what should i do then?
You found the answer by yourself I see!! 😂
absolutely priceless!!! 🙏
Hello. I work as a translator and I spend all my days sitting and touch typing. I love your videos and I started to apply your tips but at the same time I am wondering, how long would it take to get used to the correct sitting posture. For now it feels like a torture.
Well, my friend... the duration of the journey depends on where you depart from, and what vehicle you have 😅... when I went through the therapy back then, it took me 2 months. But that's just me...
the vid I'm been waiting for haha
don't wait, just ask 😂!
For the past six months I’ve had what feels like a pinched shoulder and it HURTS. I’ve been doing all this though but it is actually my left shoulder which I can’t understand since it’s not my mouse hand. I recently raised my monitor too with no luck from the pain. Any help would be great 👍
I know... sometimes you need someone to have a closer look at what you are really doing. There are 2 things I can do to help individually at a distance: Whatsapp hotline (send pics and I comment) or online consultation. The two can be purchased here: oliviergirard.ch/en/shop/
I’ve been having pain in my lateral deltoids, could it be that my keyboard is too far away?
Or too wide, or desk too high
hi Olivier as I have numerous issues such as triggerpoints in scalene and traps beside reworking on my posture I seem to find the more stretching the more knots I get
will these be of use ....am I best to try and release some of the tightness first. I have been using spray and stretch techniques but can't seem to get the knots to release
The only thing I haven't tried is doing the scalene and trapezius stretching you demonstrated more than twice a day
I do suspect tos as my symptoms have got worse since acdf surgery four months ago
I don't want to play smart ass, Andy, but one key question is always: do you really have numerous issues, or do you observe multiple facets of one same issue? The muscles that you cite tend to develop trigger points hand in hand (because when the head shifts forward, the scalene are shortened and the upper traps are lengthened, which in the context of holding the head are 2 causes of trigger points).
What I often see is that indeed, the tissues are more fragile after surgery, and that the post-op pain creates new bad habits that add to the old bad habits. The combination of all this makes people feel more fragile indeed.
To give you an indication: I now tend to tell my patients that I want them to act on their muscles every 2 hours, esp. in terms of relaxation. They alternate between warm shower, heat pack, warm gel, TENS, etc. but I want something every 2 hours. This type of extreme frequency shows great results... but it requires a lot of self-discipline!!
I'm sorry to say ... I'm not trying to be an expert over though having talked with ergonomists before... its not everybody that agrees (not directly disagreeing either) about not resting the underarm on the table... I'm a graphical designer (well software developer too) so I'm working equally as much with the mouse as well as the keyboard... I agree with what you said about keyboard... To me eas simply just solved with positioning the keyboard more to the side when I mainly used the mouse... (simple solution but you ofc need to be aware and pay attention ... that's why I like your video here)..... However I have had elevation tables which curves "inward" and I have been resting my underarms on the table to my experience that's better than using the chair armrests only in fact I didn't have chair armrests at all.... (but maybe that's OK too).. no matter what my point is which I cannot emphasise enough is... Non of this is very simple and straight forward and therefor most important to be aware and pay attention to your body... but however in my experience working that much with mouse which I have done (many many percentage above average use of the mouse) then it gets even more important to have your underarms rested well equally so at same level of the wrist so the wrist is as relaxed as it can be... because using the mouse is what gives most strain to the wrist area (in worst case causing a "mouse arm") ... I do like all you say with the shoulders and you also had some new points I didn't think alot ablut before 👍 however being a practical user for more than 20 years with heavy mouse usage daily then I cannot emphasise enough how important it is to pay attention to also having good rest for the underarms too... there I feel you are a bit locked into position with having to use the chair armrests ... All I'm saying here is not that I don't agree I do... But I also just same time wanna say we should not make things too simplified either (that's a pitfall if we do instead of being aware)... and in my book to my experience I cannot emphasise enough with heavy mouse usage how important it is having the underarms well relaxed on the same level as your wrists (something a chair with armrests doesn't always allow)
Hello, are you saying that you prevent shoulder pain by having the underarms (forearms?) relaxed on an elevated table? You also mentioned a table that "curves inward." Are you referring to a drafting table?
It is working thank you! It is so simple. I simply make sure that my complete forearms are on the desk rather than sitting back and using the arm rests.
@meliemel2113 yeah I don't have problems with shoulders but you ofc need to be aware as the most important thing... but if u ask me its more important to be aware of your arms when working with the mouse alot (underarm need be on same level as the wrist for the arm you work with the mouse) .. Im talking about professional computer desks
@meliemel2113 good to hear you are welcome... please mind it's not a total solution that's "bulletproof" .. if you work with the mouse alot you need be much aware still and also maybe take alot of shorter breaks during the day
@meliemel2113 (I tried to send links to some example of tables but seems yutube don't like that... I worked mostly with customised made tables ... but they maybe are called curved elevation table try a Google search and see)
what can be the problem of using a laptop with a simple stand that rise only the back part of the device, keeping it at more or less 30° degrees?
Great question! The impact will be an increase of wrist extension (i.e. bending the wrist back), which contracts the wrist extensor muscles (responsible for tennis elbow aka lateral epicondilytis) and of pressure in the carpal tunnel. Both are due to the keyboard angle. It's also the reason why it's recommended to not use the feet at the back of the keyboard.
I have started following your advice and sitting at 90 degrees between thighs and dorso, which seemed unattainable to me, is now my habit. But I fear that sitting badly for so many years has affected by latissimus dorsi because now with a correct posture I feel very much tension in my right one. I would like to if there are any stretches that you recomend doing during the workday. Thanks.
Hey dear!! I think that you should watch these 2 videos:
- th-cam.com/video/BOUxzp7QVJ0/w-d-xo.html, which has unfortunately stayed quite confidential
- the exercise that you should do 10-15 times a day: th-cam.com/video/LdDnb3Miwss/w-d-xo.html
Let me know if this helps!!
Thank you very much. Very useful advice.
Thank you for your videos. Very helpful for typing. I'm wondering if you have any advice for drawing tablets and seperate screens? Is this the same position as the keyboard? I have seen many recommend a sloped surface like an easel?
Also do you think any of your advice for posture would be different for hypermobile people? Thank you so much.
Hey, thanks for the feedback! Indeed, drawing tablets can be tilted slightly. But not too much, otherwise you create a wrist lateral deviation. They should also be placed in front of the dominant hand, not in the middle like a keyboard.
Reg. posture advice: no, I have the same advice for hypermobile people. That's because the advice I give aims at distributing optimally the load on the tissues, and that's the same for everyone.
Hypermobile people should mainly be careful with stretching... never stretch an hypermobile joint.
Makes sense?
@@OlivierGirard Wow that's great - thanks so much! I had no idea about putting the tablet in front of the drawing hand! Thanks for your great work!
here is some more stuff, made today: th-cam.com/video/0N-PDUWnHLU/w-d-xo.html :)
I am trying to follow your suggestions, both from TH-cam and from The Posture Manual, step by step adjusting my posture. I have just one problem. When I sit on my office chair (Kinnarps 5000) trying to keep the correct position of the feet, knees, pelvis, back and arms, after a few minutes of typing I feel pain in my left scapula (I am right handed). What could be the reason of this?
Hey Greg! I would look at this type of pain as either shoulder forward or shoulder elevated. As it's left, I'm wondering if you tend to rest your left forearm or elbow on the table. The other solution is that you're too close to your desk, which creates tension between the shoulder blades. Can you check these two and let me know?
@@OlivierGirard Dear Olivier. Thank you for your answer. After observing it for some time I noticed that the pain occurs on both shoulder blades. I have a sliding keyboard shelf under my desk at a hight of about about 65 cm. When I type I frequently rest my palm pads on this shelf which works as a wrist support. I must look for a video where you explain the correct position of arms while typing. It feels like there is too much weight hanging on my shoulders.
@@asiastasiak6201 Hello my dear... sorry for this late reply! 65 cm seems quite low: for 90% of the Western population, the ideal desk height is between 68 and 76 cm. Hence, 65 cm can happen, but it's really quite low. And a too low desk / keyboard tray can give this feeling that you have. Check out this video on how to adjust your desk height and let me know if it rings a bell: th-cam.com/video/Tse6AWnVgpY/w-d-xo.html :)
is that logitech keyboard good? I bought it and it causes pain in my thumb, I'm wondering If I'm using it wrong, I noticed it's a bit taller angle than other keyboard...what should I do?
Honestly, I also found it difficult to get used to. I wonder why it causes this thumb pain though... do you think it's linked to how you hit the space bar?
@@OlivierGirard wrote you email, if you can check.
I got it 😊… will answer right after dinner !
ver good indeed
It feels very difficult to use the keyboard without resting your elbows, forearms or wrists. I naturally want to rest my wrists on the front of my desk; with a fist length inbetween my belly button and desk front.
well, the thing here is that you might miss a bit of a dynamic vision: whilst I'm trying to find the best way to answer your comment,
- I'm thinking a lot (OK, I know it's hard to figure it out😂!!): my wrists can rest on the desk
- I'm typing a bit: my wrists need to float on top of the desk.
And on and off, like this. Does this make any sense??
All these correct sitting position made me thinking, maybe our spine were not designed to sit 8 hours per day in front of the computer.
Congrats 😅!! Spot on!!
This video is gold!! I'm suffering for a lot of time and I use this exact wide keyboard and ergonomic mouse, I'll switch keyboards immediately.
Do you have something for standing desk ergonomy to mitigate this shoulder pain?
Greta video
thank you, mate :) !!
The only thing I would take from this video is the what to avoid part.
I don’t agree with anything at this video besides that, how you position your arms really depends on the desk height and the chair type and a lot more small details which weren’t mentioned at all
depending on the size of the belly 😅
lol
Thank you ✌🏽