8:55 shout out to Assault being dope af. 3-4 hit tyranid warriors(ruthless, relic hammer), 50% extra gunstrike dmg, armor back with gunstrike, armor back from hammer perk, AND infinite jetpack slams with enough minor enemies around. 10/10 class 👌 *chefs kiss*
"You could lobotomize a chimpanzee, hand it a Melta, and it would figure things out and top frag." Has to be one of the greatest lines of all time @1:57 "Here's how you play Vanguard best" (gives step by step tutorial on how to swap classes)
i like vanguard and his grapple and i went into this video thinking "he's alright, why does he really need changes?" and frankly everything recommended is something i would LOVE to see on vanguard. i play him because i like how the grapple feels, it's fun. giving us the eternal war grapple would make him significantly more fun whilst also making him significantly stronger
@@valkenx6758I uhh… didn’t know that it got a melta and I’m lvl 12….. I like the instigator so much but I also mostly do solo runs so I have a much easier time not having to worry about other people’s executions
I for one applaud 40k’s commitment to making sure the Primaris Reiver (which is what the Vanguard would be without the Melta) remains just as useless in any media adaptation as they are on the tabletop.
Vanguard is waaay better in pvp than pve. The amount of times I've grappled to the ceiling or a wall what I was under to surprise anyone who happened to be there is more times than I can count
Level 9 vanguard here. I enjoy this class solely because I can put an Angry Marines skin on it and the voice lines feel like they're in-character. Edit: while I'm here, I would like to say that I really wish there was a checkered pattern for pauldrons and a heart-shaped decal. My bulwark feels kinda off-brand without them.
I was like: "Vanguard can't be that bad, I'll try the 3 round burst bolter so I won't be crutching on the melta." I FUCKING HATE VANGUARD NOW! Half of these perks are not good because they're on vanguard. They'd be good on any class.
Nah bro is not controversial is facts, the only thing Vanguard does better is parrying in a horde, when you get surrounded no class can parry more frequently but thats hardly great when you can just have a sniper headshot things down from safety
Yeah, but not really. Sniper does benefit from the Health glitch, if you are using the Las. But once they fixed it, it Will be a cannon glass. Vanguard otherwise, does benefit a lot from being the tip of spear, he gains 50% more contested Health, and paired with an tactical, gains 80% more contested HP. He does have the most durability between the classes against every type of enemy (except bulwark) and its a beast to take out extremis and bosses by dodgin it. All that, without HP bug or melta. Also, the Health regen perk at level 25 is bugged, it says you regen about 1% HP for every majoris executed, but um paper, you gain about 10% HP Back.
Jebbles i'm here before watching the video, and i'll be very upset if there's ANY Vanguard Slander. ANY. Update: I'm not even mad. This is just. I feel like i've had the wind sucked out of me. I'm gonna go drink and hold one of my phobos marines like Hamlet holding Yorick's skull, and rethink some things. A minute and a half in. Update 2: compare ME to LORGAR "who's your daddy" AURELIAN?? I'm mad again. Always love the emotional rollercoaster. Update 3: 7:52, Vanguard is never coming back from being hit with "bone density of an 8 year old girl" and "amphetamine laced fuckwit" in such quick succession. Not beating the survivability accusations today.
You couldn’t beat the accusations because you don’t have a melta. You are a real life vanguard confirmed! I say that from a place of love. I’m a salamander bulwark, so I will always protect the weak! ;)
playing vanguard to have a phobos and knife class with the good melee dodge, because dodgeroll on a space marine looks ass. playing instigator carbine because it's a bit of range possibility, even if I'll never beat a non-assault or bulwark at range, I can participate. Grappling is used to go search for snipers, sentinels or the like, the bulwark player is there to go in the horde, not me. and they enjoy the +15% melee damage team perk. I just think it's neat. I'm not trying to optimize, but I don't think it's so shit either.
I think the melta criticism is completely justified - the weapon is hard carrying players. That being said, I must admit that I don't understand your criticism about the perk tree. I think Vanguard oozes with customizability, for whether you want to be a single target menace, team support, or in-your-face bruiser. Regarding the later, I don't see how Vanguard is squishier than other melee classes. You have basis 50% faster contested health regen, options to reduce ranged, melee AND flat %-damage, increased parry AND dodge windows as well as good healing on executions. This make a good melee vanguard tanky as shit. And on top of that you have some of the best team abilities in the game.
You are totally right, In my oppinion, this guy is not very credible, when he says : - vanguard is squishy and wouldn't be able to survive without the melta when the class (like you even say) recovers more contested health, has many damage mitigation tools and options for extended perfect parry and/or dodge windows. - vanguard has bad mobility when you can litteraly use ennemies as anchor points to move around the battlefield, he also doesn't understand that the maps weren't designed with the same verticality in mind as campaign or PvP. - heavy with a melta is a better vanguard, I would love to see his heavy trying to disrupt 5-6 warriors in the back shooting at him while dealing with the frontline of ennemies. His iron halo won't cut it. Guy is hating on a class that has one of the best aura in the game, insane mobility and disruption capabilities. Vanguard has a similar role as the Sniper, he takes out the priority targets before they can harm the party. But unlike the sniper, who's good at keeping attention away from him, the vanguard is good at drawing attention to himself and reducing pressure against his allies when they get overwhelmed. With the right tools, you can be a horde clearing machine and an insane duelist. Add a bunch of Kraks on top and now you are unstoppable. People should absolutely play this class, it feels good to play and it's very good at its job.
@@fredericbrasseur7399 pretty much. The guy makes good cases for some arguments, but other times it just seems like he deliberately tries to disagree with the vast community, whilst sprinkling on edgy commentary which boils down to “you just gotta get good”, without looking at the objective nature of things. It’s a fact that more and more assault players have swapped to chainsword due to its great swing speed and moveset. When you consider that the assault has shit perks in comparison to Vanguard, his opinions just doesn’t make sense. But I would love to see a “real” argument otherwise. Besides, when they fix the overhealing bug, assault will be nerfed as well (like all classes with substantial AOE burst). He is acting like the issue only effects the Melta
The problem is that is not how people are playing him. By comparison, he is not as tanky as a bulwark, and lacks the mobility of assault. He is surviving because of the melta, currently. His ability pretty much has one utility, it doesn’t really do much for the team as a whole. As for team perks, the only one they should be taking is inner fire, but I have yet to play with a vanguard who has taken it. They seem to mostly take melee champion. That’s good, but it doesn’t really benefit the whole team. Sniper and assault basically don’t get any benefit. Whereas regenerating abilities is absolutely busted, and synergizes with every class. That’s more of an issue with the player base, though, not the class itself.
@@kolbywilliams7234 I agree. Players aren't incentivized to build melee when the Melta exists in it's current state. I think vanguards ability has good utility, as it allows him quickly cover distance, instantly stun key targets, and also prevent backups. Regarding the team ability - I'm mainly seeing inner fire in my ruthless teams, but melee champion is still good, as melee becomes prevelant in higher difficulties. Besides, you could say the same about gunstrike damage on Assualt not being useful as well several classes. Regarding the health regen issues, the Melta is the most obvious case of it, but the bug is appliable for all classes with large AOE burst damage (Assault very much included). Finally, people often overlook adrenaline rush on Vangaurd, as it gives a good amount of health back on executions. This couples well with his other perks, making him very reliable at hovering around 50% health.
Best way to describe Vanguard is if you’re good at melee it makes you even better at it. I have no problem atleast against Tyranids with parrying and dodging, Melta is really good with this class admittedly but I like it cause I can get to the action and do what I gotta do. I run fencer chainsword + melta is very good. I don’t feel handicapped at all.
Counterpoint: Melta aside, I feel like the Vanguard is the close-range duelist class out of all of them. Assault is close-range AOE. He is squishy compared to everyone but the sniper, but his perks more than make up for it. Much more forgiving parry windows, better opportunities for damage with perfect dodge, and his dodge animations are less clunky. He's a dancer to the Assault's beatstick. Plus he is more capable of helping in ranged fights than Assault or Bulwark, which also makes up for the lack of area damage. He's in a similar role to the Sniper as being about precision instead of mob clearing.
Assault can do AOE but he's mostly a good counter striker which is where a lot of people go wrong with him. He gets better gun strike damage as well as armor even if they aren't kills. Not to mention the +50% dodge window on his thrust dodges. The kicker is that he doesn't need to get to half health in order to use it, and they get their charge refunded if you do them right. When that's the competition to a unit that needs to actively take damage to survive and has less mobility, the contest doesn't last long. If the strength is for ranging then closing in, he should have better perks to reflect that.
@@JebblesJunior I disagree with this assessment just by Vanguard having increased dodge window (with half health) and increased parry windows. Assault doesn't get anything for parrying. Plus Assault's kit is all about recharging or using his jump pack. Most of Vanguard's kit is about getting into the thick of it and using dodges and parries to take less damage, allowing himself to be a magnet while your ranged teammates hit the blobs around you from a safe distance. He gets more benefits out of dodge and parry in the middle of combat. Assault is about getting in and out.
Vanguard's melee feels better than Assault in pretty much every way, and unlike Assault doesn't take 25 levels to start actually feeling effective. The Melta is just the cherry on top
Many various problems of the game are addressed if the game had a core mechanic to recover health and/or stim charges on melee finisher, for everyone. Then perks to strengthen it to various degrees based upon class role. And it's a very simple fix for them to implement. Leave headshots replenishing armor. Melee finishers replenish health/stim charges. Then they can balance weapons as needed but are afraid to touch an OP weapon in need of a nerf because the know it is carrying a class and it will hurt all the players who like and want to play that class.
@@JebblesJunior Disagree completely. What it would do is remove the desperate looking around for stim charges and more properly represent a Space Marine type gameplay than the current more generic spam-rolling gaminess that can be found in a multitude of other games. And as players unlocked stronger builds and weapons it would allow the ramping up of enemy numbers to more proper horde/swarms levels. And again, it removes the need to protect brokenly OP weapons simply because they are carrying a melee system that has this flaw at its core. Which then results in more weapon variety and builds viability.
@@piedpiper1172 Whatever amount could be tuned. But the game clearly needs some sort of health/stim charge replenishment that everyone has access to as a core mechanic. Nobody wants the game too easy. But it also shouldn't feel like our walking tank posthumans are made of tissue paper and have aggressive melee play punished as it currently is. Such aggressive play should be rewarded in a game about walking tank posthumans.
@@whatisbestinlife8112 I do think that non melta users are under estimating how big a role multi hit healing plays in the current game. Everything from bolter kraken rounds to the chainsword stomp can trigger the same healing effect the melta farms so easily, and even little bits of that add up. Most people know overcharged plasma and grenade launcher can do it as well, but even still I really can’t help but wonder if playtesting and balancing was done with this bug present. The game feels like it’s at its intended difficulty with the bug present, which means fixing the bug will radically alter that balance. I do wonder if they’ll decide to make some other adjustment to healing along side it. Imo, melta healing is probably too strong, but with another difficulty tier coming, I largely feel it’s better to increase healing on most guns, or really significantly increase congested health windows. If you happen not to have the +time team trait from a teammate, you can take a hit while firing with any of the non-grenade launcher bolters and you’ll still run out of time to recover the available contested health even if you were firing the exact moment the window began. Completely removing over-healing will really ramp this issue up, because now every single missed window is permanent. Alternatively, drop pod check points fully healing everyone (instead of just bulwark and heavy with +hp trait) would go a long way on this. Mistakes would still matter, but a single mistake won’t tax you for an entire run. It also just feels weird that our battle barge dropped us up to 9 weapons (including duplicates) but not a single first aid kit.
I really appreciate how when you said go play another class, you stuck to your guns and ran footage of everyone else but the vanguard after he had his two minutes of fame. (Its all the class deserves)
I only main(ed) vanguard because I wanted to carry myself to artisan tier weapons and get to better sniper rifles. Which I couldn't do on sniper, because I suck. (but i love that gameplay). Vanguards only pros is that tactical is picked often, so I can play operations with melta anyway. After I accept that I will never consistently do substantial difficulty on sniper, I will switch to bulwark. (or tactical once they buff the bolters, because I am tired of melta already).
I think in my uneducated opinion, the Vangawd should get: 1.) Like mentioned, being able to grapple onto surfaces 2.) Either a perk or inherent feature that if you kill a majoris enemy you grapple within a few seconds, you get a free immediate use of grapple for a few seconds after. I feel like this would really boost the hit-and-run aspect of the class. 3.) Give more perks or boosts towards raw health gain. It already has that bugged 1% hp gain perk, so clearly they wanted this class to be the self sustaining guerilla fighter. Lean more heavily into that, or revamp the health/armor system to make it more meaningful.
As a vanguard player who refused to use melta's, I am absolutely a parasite lol. I absolutely agree it needs a way to escape combat though. As is, you either commit to the clusterfuck, as we often do, or pretend to be a tactical without the auspex.
I had the misfortune of playing a Vanguard first and trying to commit to it. I just picked a class at random that wasn't present in the first game and now i regret it because man i feel so thin. If you want to be a melee class just play Assault or Bulwark
I agree and I will even add a that if you’re good with playing, especially without melta, there’s no team. As a vanguard main that doesn’t use the melta (I think it’s important to specify), it is basically assault but less offensive and more “resilient”. The first thing to clarify is the game lie to you. The assault isn’t a crowd cleaner and the vanguard an elite duelist. Assault as boosted dodge window timing that allow him to perfect dodge everything and do gun strike to maintain his armor, without having to kill. Not only is Assault good at clearing and unleashing hell on earth, but he’s just the best duelist of all of the classes, period. Vanguard, no melta, to me, is a fast moving killer that can put enemies he grappled-kicked fast in execute but requires you to know when to use your firearms in congestion with your melee combos to deal ton of damages quickly against specific targets. For instance, after having grappled an enemy and using the nerfing range damage perk, use your burst sniper or carbine and just dump all your bullets during its stunned state into his skull. If no skull are visible, search for their sensititive “part”. That’s something that I do with most classes but I rely even more on this tactic for vanguard. This generally feels like I take out 80 to 90 % hp of any majoris. Then, a few melee hits and the target is on execute. Just so you know, I use the chainsword. Not as good in DPS as the knife, and it’s fine, cause my real damage maker for both long and close range is my primary weapon, preferably at point blank range of my target head. Then, for crowd controlling, if you have the carbine but can’t align head shots on minor is at close range, back dash from enemies, then grapple kick (with impact area perk) When you’re vanguard and that you recharge your grapple just by doing execution and gun strikes, even at small enemies, do not feel shy over using it for damage or crowd control purposes. With these few tips, you should be able to survive by yourself and get kills without requiring the support of your team or of your melta. Also, as you’ll probably be using the healing signature perk the moment you’ll get it (which is one of the only reason why it appeal to players), let your team get the Stims and benediction. If you do damages fast and perform executions in series, you don’t need any unless you’re fighting bosses , and in that case, your personal skill will be the determining factor and using your ammo against them is worthless.
The main problem with these classes is their perks, only a handful even come close to catering to each classes unique identity and 80% of each perk tree is going in the complete opposite direction or a completely different direction entirely
I can agree with most of the points but the vanguard is so much fun for me as it gives you a large amount of mobility and while you can get more in the assault class I did not want to sacrifice a primary weapon for it. Now I love shotgun type weapons in games and while the melta-rifle can be seen as a “press shoot to win” gun I think it can still be placed in minor crutches through its slow reload time and low range, not saying it’s not overpowered but I feel it shines best in getting rid of minoris level enemies while majoris are to be fought in melee combat which the vanguard can excel at with its grapple hook by already doing damage and stun to the minoris enemies around it with a certain perk and then defeat it in melee and gain back all the shield you might have lost from minoris enemies attacking you while killing the majoris enemy. And not to mention if a random enemy attempts to call in reinforcements from far away the vanguard can easily swoop in with a grapple kick and stop it very easily. I can see why you feel this class is the worst but I feel if used correctly it can be an extremely well used asset where at points has been able to carry a team through its quick movement and good melee but it can falter to its hit or miss perks or users using it incorrectly. With my experience the vanguard can be a valuable asset or break a team entirely. Fun and entertaining video nonetheless
I haven't played Vanguard yet, it's next and I wrap up heavy. But I do have notes from my observations. Firstly, if you get queued with a Vanguard player you will get 1 of three possible players. The main character: thinks he's him, will steal all the executions, leaping to where the fighting is thickest and will rage that their getting bodied. Speed runner: will ditch you and your team mate to speed through the levels and seeth that you're holding them up. Is two sub categories here. The grinder basically the above or the better option the professional will state at the start their a speed runner and ask if thats okay (king)) And lastly the Melta Bro: will just sprint round blasting everything with a melta because they found it was broken and dedicated all their time to it, so much so that they've forgone every other skill. Once they get run train on in melee they melt. But mainly I think the class suffers from an identity crisis, its like tatical, but reversed. Tatical doesn't excel at anything, but its good enough to fill any gap in the team comp and carry that gap. In a all melee team, it can't effectly cover ranged options like tatical can. In an all ranged team, it can't effectively cover melee like tatical can. Its just an inferior tatical marine. On paper it should be a Majoris and Extremis hunter, but in action its outclassed by Tactical, Assault and Sniper. It has not real role to play in the class dynamic, that should be a good thing because you can slot into any role. But your not beefy enough for sustained melee and your shooting options are limited to shit close range, broken close range and serviceable mid range.
I have been watching your videos on the classes and most of them have been helping me get better at playing them, so I was really excited for some tips on vanguard since I have been having so much trouble playing him and feel I'm not having as much fun as I should playing the class. so much so that I have considered switching mains in operations. but, I didn't want to give up on him so easily. so I was hoping this video would help on that but unfortunately this video has kind of proven my doubts that at the moment the class is heavily flawed. hopefully this can be changed soon because having a space marine who has a grapple hook is really cool
@@JebblesJunior I can easily see that being the case in the near future as well and once it does I think it'll be one of the most fun classes in the game but for now I will play tactical since i seem to have an affinity for that class
I play Vanguard with no Melta for the challenge. But I do have to say that the success that I have with the class is because of the weapons and it’s respective perks, rather than the class.
Only discovered you recently but I'm really enjoying your videos. Love your sense of humor and I really REALLY enjoyed your Primarch videos. Especially the Lion video since you and I share a similar opinion of the character (+ he is my favorite Primarch :D)
I actually like Vanguard, you get perks that makes melee really good and if you’re good at melee it makes you even better at it. Sure it’s not the AOE splash dmg from the warhammer and powerfist but if you run Melta + Fencer Chainsword then those areas are covered.
lvl 14 vanguard here tbh i agree with the melta being the far superior option to whatever else the vanguard can take and i agree the vanguard in hind sight does feel like he is missing something or perhaps needs better weapon options for the primory slot besides the melta he already has and i agree with the vanguard struggling to get out of trouble again once you grappled into said trouble tho however the buffs to perfect dodge and parry windows are kinda handy and the grapple is useful for interrupting reinforcement calls
@shadowsketch926 good enough for me, realistically speaking tho at best vanguard is going to get dual wield knives considering what they can equip on tabletop
vanguard is meant to prioritize majors and above the combat knife 1v1 cooks learn the combos and you're going from grapple to execute .never had to be a parasite and I use to my combat knife way more than my melta . but I do agree with the identity essentially we are just snipers with better melee perks.
I’ve set up my vanguard to play melee chain sword and it’s so forgiving it’s ridiculous. At max level I can carry ruthless without ever picking up a stim and I use the instigator rifle for distant targets. It’s a very satisfying set up to me but that’s just IMO.
Level 25 vanguard is click to win and I won't be convinced otherwise, it's the easiest class to use and win with requiring little to no teamwork or skill, that's why I main'd it for so long and to break into lethal difficulty. That's why I told all my friends to start with vanguard when they started playing.
I protected my Heavy by parrying away a horde, 6 charging warriors with my combat knife on Ruthless and our team Bulwark is currently down on the otherside of the map. The hell you mean Vanguard is weak? That 20% based increase in perfect parry window plus another 50% increase perk and a Fencing weapon mean you always get a perfect parry when you hit the C button as long as you don't get hit with a red attack.
The fencing combat knife alone is enough to perfect parry anything. You get six to eight business days to hit it. The question you should be asking is why did your heavy waste all their ammo, and why did your bulwark abandon you.
@@JebblesJunior The Heavy was running a Heavy Bolter at that time instead of a Multi Melta so he can't effectively deal with 6 rushing Warriors. The Heavy guy attention was on the Zoanthropes. The Bulwark was a glory chaser going by himself and overconfident knock him down with said Zoanthrope.
So to play horus's advocate here: The vanguard has a much better dodge animation than most other classes. If you double dodge you still get the standard roll for the second dodge, but the quick sidestep gives you the ability to kite or set up majoris shish kebabs far better than the heavy. The melta slander is fully deserved, though. The weapon is absolutely a crutch that the entire rest of the class revolves around.
I disagree. This isn't a new concept; it's similar to the Vanguard class from Mass Effect-fun there and fun here. Is the Melta overpowered? Sure, especially the health recovery aspect, which the devs have already acknowledged and plan to fix. Personally, I don't rely on it; we just time banner drops on bulwarks to regain health. The Melta has the worst fire rate, reload speed, and range, so it makes sense that up close it deals heavy damage. A weapon that melts tanks should definitely stagger a warrior. In my squad, I zip to the backline to take out threats like venom cannons, and if a teammate needs help, I’m there quick. Vanguard's perks are solid, with tough choices to make. It sounds like you're frustrated with how Melta classes outperform others, but from what the devs have said, they’re not nerfing it beyond the health fix-just balancing health values so other weapons feel more impactful.
As I said, I don't have a problem with people playing on easy mode. The issue is the melta covering for the Vanguards awful perks. Compared to every other class, they don't stand up without the crutch. Basing the vanguard around the current grapple is just making a worse version of assault.
@@JebblesJunior I think if that were true you wouldn't being calling it easy mode you would be calling it melta. The issue is you just say "These perks suck" without a single example or comparison. Arguably the best squad perk in the game, a cheat death every 2 minutes. Diving kick aids AoE to grapple, and tip of the spear debuffs everything you just hit with it. With how fast your getting your Grapple back at that point, your constantly Aoeing and Debuffing the pack everyone else is attacking. Parry and dodge windows. Explain why you think there bad using actual information next time.
I would point out that the bulwark full heal is also a bug, the banner is only supposed to regen armour. If you take off the perk that insta revives teammate's you won't see a full bar of contestable health.
@@lok798 Incorrect, its quite literally listed on the perk as giving you full contested health. If you do enough damage or an execute with contested health it converts to real health. This is how this mechanic is intended, it takes some coordination to use effectively
@@lok798 Invigorating Icon Teammates regain Contested Health when Banner is active Combine that with Advanced Conditioning 50% slower fade of Contested Health, and your a pretty effective healer if your dropping the banner with your team close and a horde right in front of you
It would be cool if when grappling towards the enemy you unloaded your secondary, or your other option would be grappling has an execute on cd for elites. Actually, they should just combine Vangaurd with the Assault into one amazingly fun class.
I must be playing the class all wrong then, because half the things in this video are non-issues even without the melta. Chainsword is the primary weapon for the class, period. Use the melta to open or extend a stagger window on majoris (although that's what the divekick is for), use the chainsword stomp to get out of crowds. Carry melta bombs or shock grenades. Van's job is to burn down majoris and extremis enemies, and it's on the rest of the team to focus down things like the zoanthropes or the neuros. The Van excels in crowd control against tyranids, and the chainsword is eminently useful against the tzaangors. They're free gunstrikes. I routinely have no armor running vanguard, but every fight with any number of minoris enemies is free armor with every parry, heavy strike, or majoris tyranid kill.
I invested time in the vanguard cuz it appeared to be a focused class on melee, which i wanted to get good with, but kinda sad to see that not really pan out outside the parry perks. I do wish more classes had the combat knife, though, its really fun.
I haven't played Operations at all yet but I love the Vanguard in Eternal War. Mostly because I enjoy the World Eater Vanguard theming. Based on your commentary I really hope they make it work better in Operations.
I play this class because parry. Tactical is a thumb up but only chainsword. Bulwarks parry animations are a bit weird. I always forget to go invisible with sniper. Assault is probably my favourite but it’s usually taken and I feel I have to please everyone and always switch off. Oh and heavy gets no melee weapon so that’s a no as well. Thus, I play vanguard. Also first proper Warhammer box I got was infiltrators so there’s probably something there as well.
Vanguard's a weird one to me. Another melee with a gap-closer ability. But in the case of Assault, they can get up to movement shenanigans with it while the Vanguard just dives foot-first into the haystack to pick out that one particular needle. That haystack is also filled with fire ants and you just so happen to be allergic. It's of little surprise that so many folks turn to the melta, because nothing clears out a haystack-and ants-like copious amounts of fire. Anyway I've messed around with the Melta on Vanguard and it's not really my cup of tea. For whatever ungodly reason I stand by the Occulus Bolt Carbine and try to play some sort of skirmisher role in which I dump a mag into the incoming swarm or elite to soften them up before switching to melee, grappling to them if I'm focusing on an elite.
I feel like the instigator + drop in combo would be the right way to go. To complete it I think there would need to be more damage on grapple or something to speed up the drop in.
@@JebblesJunior Middle row of Vanguard's Gear Perks can amp the damage potency of grapple, though I imagine you're suggesting an overall buff to its damage and/or reel-in speed.
For me, the biggest sin of Assault and Vanguard is that the two have the wrong name. Assault has the loadout of a vanguard veteran, including the jetpack. Vanguard instead being the name of the grappling hook class (and yes I know this is because GW for some reason completely alien to normal human logic decided to call all phobos-equipped troops "vanguards" despite that name already being in use) just feels wrong on an instinctual level.
After maxing out the assualt and playing with a good build...i can confidently say the assualt class is fcking great...as someone who is good at the dodge mechanics...the class is awesome
They realized it would be just as useless as its tabletop counterpart without giving it another weapon option. Honestly makes me want meltas on reivers, could possibly fix the unit.
i really like the vanguard and dont even use the melta much. I think the occulus bolt carbine is massively underrated and people are using it wrong. You are an assault marine but one that actually kills the majors he targets.
Vanguard has +50% contested health gain, self heal 10% health per majoris finisher. The melta takes advantage of the 50% contested health gain but the melee doesnt really do enough damage to feel exceptional. Vanguard does excel in gap closing on ranged minoris and melta them. It's too bad vanguard relies on melta so much. Maybe after the melta nerf, the +50% contested health will keep it viable
considering what the vanguard looks to be based off of, which is reivers, these mf's should be the nightmare for the backline of the enemies... which is kinda hard to do when the bolter guns all feel so goddamn inconsequential compared to the melta, and that lacks the range to really do anything to the backline.
Well I'm a stubborn idiot. So im gonna keep running vanguard with the burst bolter anyway. Cause eventually i can get through that brick wall if i just keep banging my head against it.
Vanguard is the budget tactical for me. If I feel like running tactical, but someone has picked both tactical and sniper before me, I MIGHT pick vanguard, if I don't wanna be the melee class of the trio. Not a great idea, but I play on lower difficulties, so we can fuck it we ball it.
I like how vanguard does all however he should be able to get majoris executions faster by himself meaning the grappling must do at least 3x more dmg because sometimes I hook to an enemy and trying to cut him with my knife for 5 seconds until he’s executable
Yeah, I picked this class. Melta rifle and combat knife. I'm having fun spending most of the operations with no health. I kill more important shit than my team.
A missundersanding is that only the melta can do overhealing but that is not true all weapons that do overdamage can over heal like the plasma guns, the underbarral granade luncher and multa. Even assault can do overheal you just need to get the timing right when ground attacking. Personaly I don't have problem with the overheal bug since the enemies in PVE are very tanky mainly when facing rubric marines and any majoris really, something even the devs know that the boltguns family of weapon are very underperforming and enemies are very tanky, my first weapon to reach Mastercraft was the LMG bolter for tatical and when I was doing the PVE missions with it (mainly when facing chaos) it felt like a water gun with a very punchy sound. Until they fix the resistence of menoris and majoris, I belive the overheal bug its accetable and also when they give us more ways of healing becuase when on higher defficuties its very little healing going around its less bad when having the healing banner. I don't belive you're wrong with your points but I don't agree with all of them.
Yes, overheal can occur across the board, but the melta is the biggest culprit by far. They will be making enemies less spongy in the same patch that fixes the melta.
@@JebblesJunior I don't belive the melta is broken its just the HP system that is broken by itself, the melta is not the culprit of anything, its just a oversize shotgun, its great a CQB but beyond that it work fine, a slow fire rate, long reload with zero range. I belive both assault and vanguard are balance people are just exaggerating the situation they're both very different play style one being hit and run tatics (assault) and flaking (vanguard). The only thing weak about assault its the nerf version of his jetpack that we use on PVE compare to PVP, it makes little sence to keep the nerf version on PVE and the better one on PVP, but I hope they make the jetpack better a manover with the PVP jetpack on PVE and a lower colddown so you can use the jetpack more.
so since this class is so heavily dependent on the melta rifle would tactical be more preferred than vanguard as well? obviously heavy multi-melta is the best but I'd say tactical with its auspex could do a better job
You will deal more damage and have more ammo sustain. But you will have very little surviability and no ways to close the gap to deal with priority targets. So it really depends on team composition and tools you bring in the fight. If you don't have anyone to deal with the targets in the back, you will have a hard time with the melta on the tactical once they fix the overheal bug.
Idk man, better parry window, better dodge window, a perk that allows you ignore death every 2 minutes and a team perk that gives the whole team 15% of their ability cooldown on a execution is a pretty helpful perk. So I agree the other weapons aren't very good and the ability compared to other classes ability is not as impressive but saying the Vanguard perk tree is bad seems short sighted imo. I do hope the Vanguard does get those changes you asked for. Absolutely would make the hook 10x more interesting and put somewhat of a skill ceiling on it
Think of it this way. A parry is nigh impossible to miss in the first place, you need to be half dead for the dodge to kick in, and you need to take fatal damage for the extra armor. A class like the assault can do that without dipping into health and maintain the mobility. As for the ability regen perk, that one is great, but I'd like to see 20% or 25% to give it more utility.
Elite sniper with moderate CC. Why? Because I set up with the combat knife and shoulder bash. And I personally like the Instigator for ranged horde clear. And I do just as fine. I do agree that there needs to be some tuning on Vanguard like the grapnel launcher needing to be able to pull you on terrain. It would also make sense to have both Vanguard and Sniper have an inherent 25/30% increased movement speed, with Tactical and Assault having 15/20% and Heavy & Bulwark as baseline. My issue is that mid-life classes are incredibly clunky and convoluted, and even quite a few of the class perks aren’t set up to either give great returns by focusing on Extremis/Terminus threats or minor bonuses for Majoris or higher. At end tier, you get the option to pick and choose, but with the current unlock system and choices, a lot of class love and hate is down to what you get at that point of the grind sticking to you.
Chaos Vanguard ahem Khorne Berzeeker is where the joy is hes so happy about carnage in general. What if 2 chainswords but overall Vanguard aint that bad if you mind your surroundings!
The melta isnt a crutch its the whole ass wheelchair lmao 🤣
the other options are Doo Doo lmao, you can do ruthless without the melta it's just harder than anything 😂
@@martian4563you can, ive done it, its just so much better when you delete hordes and stagger stuff with one click
Vanguard is my favourite class to play when someone else is already playing Assault and I want to be worse than them
8:55 shout out to Assault being dope af. 3-4 hit tyranid warriors(ruthless, relic hammer), 50% extra gunstrike dmg, armor back with gunstrike, armor back from hammer perk, AND infinite jetpack slams with enough minor enemies around. 10/10 class 👌 *chefs kiss*
"You could lobotomize a chimpanzee, hand it a Melta, and it would figure things out and top frag." Has to be one of the greatest lines of all time
@1:57 "Here's how you play Vanguard best"
(gives step by step tutorial on how to swap classes)
i like vanguard and his grapple and i went into this video thinking "he's alright, why does he really need changes?"
and frankly everything recommended is something i would LOVE to see on vanguard. i play him because i like how the grapple feels, it's fun. giving us the eternal war grapple would make him significantly more fun whilst also making him significantly stronger
“I used to hate the Vanguard, well I still do, but I used to too.” - Mitch Hedberg probably
A man of culture I see.
What sucks is that they’re the only class with my favorite Bolter, the instigator.
Instigator slaps though and I've never used the melta
@@valkenx6758I uhh… didn’t know that it got a melta and I’m lvl 12….. I like the instigator so much but I also mostly do solo runs so I have a much easier time not having to worry about other people’s executions
I for one applaud 40k’s commitment to making sure the Primaris Reiver (which is what the Vanguard would be without the Melta) remains just as useless in any media adaptation as they are on the tabletop.
lol nice.
The sickest burn I ever heard is "it's okay. The universe already has Lorgar."
"The melta can't be *THAT* powerful, i mean it's strong but- oh it's melting the entire health of a hive tyrant. huh."
Vanguard is waaay better in pvp than pve. The amount of times I've grappled to the ceiling or a wall what I was under to surprise anyone who happened to be there is more times than I can count
Level 9 vanguard here. I enjoy this class solely because I can put an Angry Marines skin on it and the voice lines feel like they're in-character.
Edit: while I'm here, I would like to say that I really wish there was a checkered pattern for pauldrons and a heart-shaped decal. My bulwark feels kinda off-brand without them.
I was like:
"Vanguard can't be that bad, I'll try the 3 round burst bolter so I won't be crutching on the melta."
I FUCKING HATE VANGUARD NOW!
Half of these perks are not good because they're on vanguard.
They'd be good on any class.
controversial take, the sniper does what the vanguard does but faster and safer
Nah bro is not controversial is facts, the only thing Vanguard does better is parrying in a horde, when you get surrounded no class can parry more frequently but thats hardly great when you can just have a sniper headshot things down from safety
I'm getting tf2 flashbacks.
Thats true, but i enjoy melee combat so much in this game so i enjoy vanguard way more
Yeah, but not really. Sniper does benefit from the Health glitch, if you are using the Las. But once they fixed it, it Will be a cannon glass. Vanguard otherwise, does benefit a lot from being the tip of spear, he gains 50% more contested Health, and paired with an tactical, gains 80% more contested HP. He does have the most durability between the classes against every type of enemy (except bulwark) and its a beast to take out extremis and bosses by dodgin it.
All that, without HP bug or melta.
Also, the Health regen perk at level 25 is bugged, it says you regen about 1% HP for every majoris executed, but um paper, you gain about 10% HP Back.
@@brunomonteiro7788if you are playing Sniper like a sniper you rarely need health
In the span of 2 days this dude has shot up to my second favorite warhammer TH-camr, right behind pancreas
The vanguard parry window makes it so hard to take down when fighting hordes just parry for free armor
Jebbles i'm here before watching the video, and i'll be very upset if there's ANY Vanguard Slander. ANY.
Update: I'm not even mad. This is just. I feel like i've had the wind sucked out of me. I'm gonna go drink and hold one of my phobos marines like Hamlet holding Yorick's skull, and rethink some things. A minute and a half in.
Update 2: compare ME to LORGAR "who's your daddy" AURELIAN?? I'm mad again. Always love the emotional rollercoaster.
Update 3: 7:52, Vanguard is never coming back from being hit with "bone density of an 8 year old girl" and "amphetamine laced fuckwit" in such quick succession. Not beating the survivability accusations today.
Is your profile pic Rob Schneider?
@@minty257 yeah, him in home alone 2
@@BertieMAhern that's right, he was the bellboy, nice.
You couldn’t beat the accusations because you don’t have a melta. You are a real life vanguard confirmed!
I say that from a place of love. I’m a salamander bulwark, so I will always protect the weak! ;)
@@kolbywilliams7234 Salamander brother
playing vanguard to have a phobos and knife class with the good melee dodge, because dodgeroll on a space marine looks ass. playing instigator carbine because it's a bit of range possibility, even if I'll never beat a non-assault or bulwark at range, I can participate. Grappling is used to go search for snipers, sentinels or the like, the bulwark player is there to go in the horde, not me. and they enjoy the +15% melee damage team perk.
I just think it's neat. I'm not trying to optimize, but I don't think it's so shit either.
They do have the quality dodge. I feel this style far better fits the character as opposed to the current "dive in and blow it all up" one.
Oh just ruffling feathers today?? The bulwark wasn't enough for ya???!!
Never is.
As a vanguard player this hurts but is so true.
I think the melta criticism is completely justified - the weapon is hard carrying players.
That being said, I must admit that I don't understand your criticism about the perk tree.
I think Vanguard oozes with customizability, for whether you want to be a single target menace, team support, or in-your-face bruiser.
Regarding the later, I don't see how Vanguard is squishier than other melee classes. You have basis 50% faster contested health regen, options to reduce ranged, melee AND flat %-damage, increased parry AND dodge windows as well as good healing on executions. This make a good melee vanguard tanky as shit. And on top of that you have some of the best team abilities in the game.
You are totally right,
In my oppinion, this guy is not very credible, when he says :
- vanguard is squishy and wouldn't be able to survive without the melta when the class (like you even say) recovers more contested health, has many damage mitigation tools and options for extended perfect parry and/or dodge windows.
- vanguard has bad mobility when you can litteraly use ennemies as anchor points to move around the battlefield, he also doesn't understand that the maps weren't designed with the same verticality in mind as campaign or PvP.
- heavy with a melta is a better vanguard, I would love to see his heavy trying to disrupt 5-6 warriors in the back shooting at him while dealing with the frontline of ennemies. His iron halo won't cut it.
Guy is hating on a class that has one of the best aura in the game, insane mobility and disruption capabilities. Vanguard has a similar role as the Sniper, he takes out the priority targets before they can harm the party. But unlike the sniper, who's good at keeping attention away from him, the vanguard is good at drawing attention to himself and reducing pressure against his allies when they get overwhelmed.
With the right tools, you can be a horde clearing machine and an insane duelist. Add a bunch of Kraks on top and now you are unstoppable. People should absolutely play this class, it feels good to play and it's very good at its job.
@@fredericbrasseur7399 pretty much. The guy makes good cases for some arguments, but other times it just seems like he deliberately tries to disagree with the vast community, whilst sprinkling on edgy commentary which boils down to “you just gotta get good”, without looking at the objective nature of things.
It’s a fact that more and more assault players have swapped to chainsword due to its great swing speed and moveset. When you consider that the assault has shit perks in comparison to Vanguard, his opinions just doesn’t make sense.
But I would love to see a “real” argument otherwise.
Besides, when they fix the overhealing bug, assault will be nerfed as well (like all classes with substantial AOE burst). He is acting like the issue only effects the Melta
The problem is that is not how people are playing him. By comparison, he is not as tanky as a bulwark, and lacks the mobility of assault. He is surviving because of the melta, currently. His ability pretty much has one utility, it doesn’t really do much for the team as a whole.
As for team perks, the only one they should be taking is inner fire, but I have yet to play with a vanguard who has taken it. They seem to mostly take melee champion. That’s good, but it doesn’t really benefit the whole team. Sniper and assault basically don’t get any benefit. Whereas regenerating abilities is absolutely busted, and synergizes with every class. That’s more of an issue with the player base, though, not the class itself.
@@kolbywilliams7234 I agree. Players aren't incentivized to build melee when the Melta exists in it's current state.
I think vanguards ability has good utility, as it allows him quickly cover distance, instantly stun key targets, and also prevent backups.
Regarding the team ability - I'm mainly seeing inner fire in my ruthless teams, but melee champion is still good, as melee becomes prevelant in higher difficulties. Besides, you could say the same about gunstrike damage on Assualt not being useful as well several classes.
Regarding the health regen issues, the Melta is the most obvious case of it, but the bug is appliable for all classes with large AOE burst damage (Assault very much included).
Finally, people often overlook adrenaline rush on Vangaurd, as it gives a good amount of health back on executions. This couples well with his other perks, making him very reliable at hovering around 50% health.
Best way to describe Vanguard is if you’re good at melee it makes you even better at it. I have no problem atleast against Tyranids with parrying and dodging, Melta is really good with this class admittedly but I like it cause I can get to the action and do what I gotta do. I run fencer chainsword + melta is very good. I don’t feel handicapped at all.
your commentary is absolute incredible, so on point.
As a Bulwark main, I am envious of the very generous parry window vanguards get. That is it though.
Counterpoint: Melta aside, I feel like the Vanguard is the close-range duelist class out of all of them. Assault is close-range AOE. He is squishy compared to everyone but the sniper, but his perks more than make up for it. Much more forgiving parry windows, better opportunities for damage with perfect dodge, and his dodge animations are less clunky. He's a dancer to the Assault's beatstick. Plus he is more capable of helping in ranged fights than Assault or Bulwark, which also makes up for the lack of area damage. He's in a similar role to the Sniper as being about precision instead of mob clearing.
Assault can do AOE but he's mostly a good counter striker which is where a lot of people go wrong with him. He gets better gun strike damage as well as armor even if they aren't kills. Not to mention the +50% dodge window on his thrust dodges. The kicker is that he doesn't need to get to half health in order to use it, and they get their charge refunded if you do them right.
When that's the competition to a unit that needs to actively take damage to survive and has less mobility, the contest doesn't last long. If the strength is for ranging then closing in, he should have better perks to reflect that.
@@JebblesJunior I disagree with this assessment just by Vanguard having increased dodge window (with half health) and increased parry windows. Assault doesn't get anything for parrying. Plus Assault's kit is all about recharging or using his jump pack. Most of Vanguard's kit is about getting into the thick of it and using dodges and parries to take less damage, allowing himself to be a magnet while your ranged teammates hit the blobs around you from a safe distance. He gets more benefits out of dodge and parry in the middle of combat. Assault is about getting in and out.
@@JebblesJunior Parry>Dodge.
Vanguard's melee feels better than Assault in pretty much every way, and unlike Assault doesn't take 25 levels to start actually feeling effective.
The Melta is just the cherry on top
Many various problems of the game are addressed if the game had a core mechanic to recover health and/or stim charges on melee finisher, for everyone. Then perks to strengthen it to various degrees based upon class role.
And it's a very simple fix for them to implement. Leave headshots replenishing armor. Melee finishers replenish health/stim charges.
Then they can balance weapons as needed but are afraid to touch an OP weapon in need of a nerf because the know it is carrying a class and it will hurt all the players who like and want to play that class.
I think that may be a step too far. If that was an option most people would never even get below 90% health.
Like a full charge per finisher?
That’s a lot. Maybe some amount, 5% or so, on a 30 second cool down?
@@JebblesJunior Disagree completely. What it would do is remove the desperate looking around for stim charges and more properly represent a Space Marine type gameplay than the current more generic spam-rolling gaminess that can be found in a multitude of other games.
And as players unlocked stronger builds and weapons it would allow the ramping up of enemy numbers to more proper horde/swarms levels.
And again, it removes the need to protect brokenly OP weapons simply because they are carrying a melee system that has this flaw at its core. Which then results in more weapon variety and builds viability.
@@piedpiper1172 Whatever amount could be tuned. But the game clearly needs some sort of health/stim charge replenishment that everyone has access to as a core mechanic.
Nobody wants the game too easy. But it also shouldn't feel like our walking tank posthumans are made of tissue paper and have aggressive melee play punished as it currently is. Such aggressive play should be rewarded in a game about walking tank posthumans.
@@whatisbestinlife8112 I do think that non melta users are under estimating how big a role multi hit healing plays in the current game.
Everything from bolter kraken rounds to the chainsword stomp can trigger the same healing effect the melta farms so easily, and even little bits of that add up. Most people know overcharged plasma and grenade launcher can do it as well, but even still I really can’t help but wonder if playtesting and balancing was done with this bug present.
The game feels like it’s at its intended difficulty with the bug present, which means fixing the bug will radically alter that balance. I do wonder if they’ll decide to make some other adjustment to healing along side it.
Imo, melta healing is probably too strong, but with another difficulty tier coming, I largely feel it’s better to increase healing on most guns, or really significantly increase congested health windows. If you happen not to have the +time team trait from a teammate, you can take a hit while firing with any of the non-grenade launcher bolters and you’ll still run out of time to recover the available contested health even if you were firing the exact moment the window began.
Completely removing over-healing will really ramp this issue up, because now every single missed window is permanent.
Alternatively, drop pod check points fully healing everyone (instead of just bulwark and heavy with +hp trait) would go a long way on this. Mistakes would still matter, but a single mistake won’t tax you for an entire run. It also just feels weird that our battle barge dropped us up to 9 weapons (including duplicates) but not a single first aid kit.
I really appreciate how when you said go play another class, you stuck to your guns and ran footage of everyone else but the vanguard after he had his two minutes of fame. (Its all the class deserves)
“Don’t fucking giggle! Do that!”
I’m crying bruh 😂
Vanguard is definitely my favorite class haha
"...Dont fucking giggle..." he says as im literally giggling. You sir, know your audience.
I only main(ed) vanguard because I wanted to carry myself to artisan tier weapons and get to better sniper rifles. Which I couldn't do on sniper, because I suck. (but i love that gameplay). Vanguards only pros is that tactical is picked often, so I can play operations with melta anyway.
After I accept that I will never consistently do substantial difficulty on sniper, I will switch to bulwark. (or tactical once they buff the bolters, because I am tired of melta already).
Yo, Jebbles. You really think I wouldn't catch that transition at 10:34? That was tasty.
I was hoping someone would notice.
That was smooth as fuck
After playing way too many hours of The First Descendant, definitely agree with you that the grapple hook should work on surfaces
I think in my uneducated opinion, the Vangawd should get:
1.) Like mentioned, being able to grapple onto surfaces
2.) Either a perk or inherent feature that if you kill a majoris enemy you grapple within a few seconds, you get a free immediate use of grapple for a few seconds after. I feel like this would really boost the hit-and-run aspect of the class.
3.) Give more perks or boosts towards raw health gain. It already has that bugged 1% hp gain perk, so clearly they wanted this class to be the self sustaining guerilla fighter. Lean more heavily into that, or revamp the health/armor system to make it more meaningful.
Oh I love these videos buddy. You have earned my subscription.
As a vanguard player who refused to use melta's, I am absolutely a parasite lol. I absolutely agree it needs a way to escape combat though. As is, you either commit to the clusterfuck, as we often do, or pretend to be a tactical without the auspex.
Such hostility towards my unhinged boy. Instigator carbine and knife are life.
I had the misfortune of playing a Vanguard first and trying to commit to it. I just picked a class at random that wasn't present in the first game and now i regret it because man i feel so thin. If you want to be a melee class just play Assault or Bulwark
Hopefully the class gets some love and flexibility in the future.
I agree and I will even add a that if you’re good with playing, especially without melta, there’s no team.
As a vanguard main that doesn’t use the melta (I think it’s important to specify), it is basically assault but less offensive and more “resilient”.
The first thing to clarify is the game lie to you.
The assault isn’t a crowd cleaner and the vanguard an elite duelist.
Assault as boosted dodge window timing that allow him to perfect dodge everything and do gun strike to maintain his armor, without having to kill.
Not only is Assault good at clearing and unleashing hell on earth, but he’s just the best duelist of all of the classes, period.
Vanguard, no melta, to me, is a fast moving killer that can put enemies he grappled-kicked fast in execute but requires you to know when to use your firearms in congestion with your melee combos to deal ton of damages quickly against specific targets.
For instance, after having grappled an enemy and using the nerfing range damage perk, use your burst sniper or carbine and just dump all your bullets during its stunned state into his skull.
If no skull are visible, search for their sensititive “part”.
That’s something that I do with most classes but I rely even more on this tactic for vanguard.
This generally feels like I take out 80 to 90 % hp of any majoris.
Then, a few melee hits and the target is on execute.
Just so you know, I use the chainsword.
Not as good in DPS as the knife, and it’s fine, cause my real damage maker for both long and close range is my primary weapon, preferably at point blank range of my target head.
Then, for crowd controlling, if you have the carbine but can’t align head shots on minor is at close range, back dash from enemies, then grapple kick (with impact area perk)
When you’re vanguard and that you recharge your grapple just by doing execution and gun strikes, even at small enemies, do not feel shy over using it for damage or crowd control purposes.
With these few tips, you should be able to survive by yourself and get kills without requiring the support of your team or of your melta.
Also, as you’ll probably be using the healing signature perk the moment you’ll get it (which is one of the only reason why it appeal to players), let your team get the Stims and benediction.
If you do damages fast and perform executions in series, you don’t need any unless you’re fighting bosses , and in that case, your personal skill will be the determining factor and using your ammo against them is worthless.
The main problem with these classes is their perks, only a handful even come close to catering to each classes unique identity and 80% of each perk tree is going in the complete opposite direction or a completely different direction entirely
I can agree with most of the points but the vanguard is so much fun for me as it gives you a large amount of mobility and while you can get more in the assault class I did not want to sacrifice a primary weapon for it. Now I love shotgun type weapons in games and while the melta-rifle can be seen as a “press shoot to win” gun I think it can still be placed in minor crutches through its slow reload time and low range, not saying it’s not overpowered but I feel it shines best in getting rid of minoris level enemies while majoris are to be fought in melee combat which the vanguard can excel at with its grapple hook by already doing damage and stun to the minoris enemies around it with a certain perk and then defeat it in melee and gain back all the shield you might have lost from minoris enemies attacking you while killing the majoris enemy. And not to mention if a random enemy attempts to call in reinforcements from far away the vanguard can easily swoop in with a grapple kick and stop it very easily. I can see why you feel this class is the worst but I feel if used correctly it can be an extremely well used asset where at points has been able to carry a team through its quick movement and good melee but it can falter to its hit or miss perks or users using it incorrectly. With my experience the vanguard can be a valuable asset or break a team entirely. Fun and entertaining video nonetheless
LFG
Time to watch at work
Alright this vid convinced me to become an assault main, thanks big pimp.
I haven't played Vanguard yet, it's next and I wrap up heavy. But I do have notes from my observations.
Firstly, if you get queued with a Vanguard player you will get 1 of three possible players.
The main character: thinks he's him, will steal all the executions, leaping to where the fighting is thickest and will rage that their getting bodied.
Speed runner: will ditch you and your team mate to speed through the levels and seeth that you're holding them up. Is two sub categories here. The grinder basically the above or the better option the professional will state at the start their a speed runner and ask if thats okay (king))
And lastly the Melta Bro: will just sprint round blasting everything with a melta because they found it was broken and dedicated all their time to it, so much so that they've forgone every other skill. Once they get run train on in melee they melt.
But mainly I think the class suffers from an identity crisis, its like tatical, but reversed. Tatical doesn't excel at anything, but its good enough to fill any gap in the team comp and carry that gap. In a all melee team, it can't effectly cover ranged options like tatical can. In an all ranged team, it can't effectively cover melee like tatical can. Its just an inferior tatical marine.
On paper it should be a Majoris and Extremis hunter, but in action its outclassed by Tactical, Assault and Sniper. It has not real role to play in the class dynamic, that should be a good thing because you can slot into any role. But your not beefy enough for sustained melee and your shooting options are limited to shit close range, broken close range and serviceable mid range.
I have been watching your videos on the classes and most of them have been helping me get better at playing them, so I was really excited for some tips on vanguard since I have been having so much trouble playing him and feel I'm not having as much fun as I should playing the class. so much so that I have considered switching mains in operations. but, I didn't want to give up on him so easily. so I was hoping this video would help on that but unfortunately this video has kind of proven my doubts that at the moment the class is heavily flawed. hopefully this can be changed soon because having a space marine who has a grapple hook is really cool
I think this class can very much see a comeback. I'd even go as far as saying it's the first class we see receive a buff.
@@JebblesJunior I can easily see that being the case in the near future as well and once it does I think it'll be one of the most fun classes in the game but for now I will play tactical since i seem to have an affinity for that class
I play Vanguard with no Melta for the challenge. But I do have to say that the success that I have with the class is because of the weapons and it’s respective perks, rather than the class.
Only discovered you recently but I'm really enjoying your videos. Love your sense of humor and I really REALLY enjoyed your Primarch videos. Especially the Lion video since you and I share a similar opinion of the character (+ he is my favorite Primarch :D)
You have good taste.
I made my Vanguard a white scars, both because of mobility and because I forget it’s there
I actually like Vanguard, you get perks that makes melee really good and if you’re good at melee it makes you even better at it. Sure it’s not the AOE splash dmg from the warhammer and powerfist but if you run Melta + Fencer Chainsword then those areas are covered.
Fair take. Vanguard is my first class and the melta hard carried me to Ruthless. However later i do find Sniper is way more fun to play.
On the rare occasion there’s someone raging on the mic or telling others how to play it’s always a vanguard
lvl 14 vanguard here tbh i agree with the melta being the far superior option to whatever else the vanguard can take and i agree the vanguard in hind sight does feel like he is missing something or perhaps needs better weapon options for the primory slot besides the melta he already has and i agree with the vanguard struggling to get out of trouble again once you grappled into said trouble tho however the buffs to perfect dodge and parry windows are kinda handy and the grapple is useful for interrupting reinforcement calls
Erm. Akshually. Vanguard is the best class. Because Grapnel hook
Time to hope the chainaxe drops
either that or poweraxes
@shadowsketch926 good enough for me, realistically speaking tho at best vanguard is going to get dual wield knives considering what they can equip on tabletop
The melta is the closest thing that i got to a heavy flamer
2:08 Brother Jebbles says the truth here 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Don’t forget the laz sniper rifle is also over healing as seen 4:50 and 4:55 but also has the added benefit of infinite ammo glitch
It’s been discovered that any damage can overheal. The biggest culprit is the melta because of how it’s damage compounds.
@@JebblesJunior do you think they will reduce that amount or will they fix were you don’t heal past your contested health
Yeah the Melta may be broken, but it's still hella fun especially if you have 3. That's just hilarious! :D
Counterpoint: I want to play a Loyalist Night Lord
vanguard is meant to prioritize majors and above the combat knife 1v1 cooks learn the combos and you're going from grapple to execute .never had to be a parasite and I use to my combat knife way more than my melta . but I do agree with the identity essentially we are just snipers with better melee perks.
I’ve set up my vanguard to play melee chain sword and it’s so forgiving it’s ridiculous. At max level I can carry ruthless without ever picking up a stim and I use the instigator rifle for distant targets. It’s a very satisfying set up to me but that’s just IMO.
11:48 you hit that guy so hard, you traveled into a parallel universe
Level 25 vanguard is click to win and I won't be convinced otherwise, it's the easiest class to use and win with requiring little to no teamwork or skill, that's why I main'd it for so long and to break into lethal difficulty. That's why I told all my friends to start with vanguard when they started playing.
My resident vanguard player started playing assult out of nowhere. Now i know why....
I couldn’t even use Vanguard if I wanted to. There is always one all decked out ready to go.
They're saving you the trouble.
I protected my Heavy by parrying away a horde, 6 charging warriors with my combat knife on Ruthless and our team Bulwark is currently down on the otherside of the map.
The hell you mean Vanguard is weak? That 20% based increase in perfect parry window plus another 50% increase perk and a Fencing weapon mean you always get a perfect parry when you hit the C button as long as you don't get hit with a red attack.
The fencing combat knife alone is enough to perfect parry anything. You get six to eight business days to hit it.
The question you should be asking is why did your heavy waste all their ammo, and why did your bulwark abandon you.
@@JebblesJunior The Heavy was running a Heavy Bolter at that time instead of a Multi Melta so he can't effectively deal with 6 rushing Warriors. The Heavy guy attention was on the Zoanthropes. The Bulwark was a glory chaser going by himself and overconfident knock him down with said Zoanthrope.
Vanguard is my favourite class just like the fast paste gameplay
Thank you for your honesty, I shall now seek to switch my main
Try assault if you want to maintain the dynamic movement. If you were playing vanguard, you probably already know how to fight in close quarters.
@@JebblesJunior that was my other option, then Bulwark. Was really hoping to make my Vanguard a kickass Carcharadon, but it is what it is...
@@AmazonAaron84 They'll probably get treated well if enough attention is brought to it.
So to play horus's advocate here:
The vanguard has a much better dodge animation than most other classes. If you double dodge you still get the standard roll for the second dodge, but the quick sidestep gives you the ability to kite or set up majoris shish kebabs far better than the heavy.
The melta slander is fully deserved, though. The weapon is absolutely a crutch that the entire rest of the class revolves around.
I disagree. This isn't a new concept; it's similar to the Vanguard class from Mass Effect-fun there and fun here. Is the Melta overpowered? Sure, especially the health recovery aspect, which the devs have already acknowledged and plan to fix. Personally, I don't rely on it; we just time banner drops on bulwarks to regain health. The Melta has the worst fire rate, reload speed, and range, so it makes sense that up close it deals heavy damage. A weapon that melts tanks should definitely stagger a warrior. In my squad, I zip to the backline to take out threats like venom cannons, and if a teammate needs help, I’m there quick. Vanguard's perks are solid, with tough choices to make. It sounds like you're frustrated with how Melta classes outperform others, but from what the devs have said, they’re not nerfing it beyond the health fix-just balancing health values so other weapons feel more impactful.
As I said, I don't have a problem with people playing on easy mode. The issue is the melta covering for the Vanguards awful perks. Compared to every other class, they don't stand up without the crutch. Basing the vanguard around the current grapple is just making a worse version of assault.
@@JebblesJunior I think if that were true you wouldn't being calling it easy mode you would be calling it melta. The issue is you just say "These perks suck" without a single example or comparison. Arguably the best squad perk in the game, a cheat death every 2 minutes. Diving kick aids AoE to grapple, and tip of the spear debuffs everything you just hit with it. With how fast your getting your Grapple back at that point, your constantly Aoeing and Debuffing the pack everyone else is attacking. Parry and dodge windows. Explain why you think there bad using actual information next time.
I would point out that the bulwark full heal is also a bug, the banner is only supposed to regen armour. If you take off the perk that insta revives teammate's you won't see a full bar of contestable health.
@@lok798 Incorrect, its quite literally listed on the perk as giving you full contested health. If you do enough damage or an execute with contested health it converts to real health. This is how this mechanic is intended, it takes some coordination to use effectively
@@lok798 Invigorating Icon Teammates regain Contested Health when Banner is active Combine that with Advanced Conditioning 50% slower fade of Contested Health, and your a pretty effective healer if your dropping the banner with your team close and a horde right in front of you
It would be cool if when grappling towards the enemy you unloaded your secondary, or your other option would be grappling has an execute on cd for elites. Actually, they should just combine Vangaurd with the Assault into one amazingly fun class.
I must be playing the class all wrong then, because half the things in this video are non-issues even without the melta. Chainsword is the primary weapon for the class, period. Use the melta to open or extend a stagger window on majoris (although that's what the divekick is for), use the chainsword stomp to get out of crowds. Carry melta bombs or shock grenades. Van's job is to burn down majoris and extremis enemies, and it's on the rest of the team to focus down things like the zoanthropes or the neuros. The Van excels in crowd control against tyranids, and the chainsword is eminently useful against the tzaangors. They're free gunstrikes.
I routinely have no armor running vanguard, but every fight with any number of minoris enemies is free armor with every parry, heavy strike, or majoris tyranid kill.
Vanguard has by far the most fun on top of the best voice lines, if you actually think playing sniper is fun, im sorry for your loss
I invested time in the vanguard cuz it appeared to be a focused class on melee, which i wanted to get good with, but kinda sad to see that not really pan out outside the parry perks. I do wish more classes had the combat knife, though, its really fun.
If you want melee heavy the bulwark and assault can be very rewarding with practice.
I haven't played Operations at all yet but I love the Vanguard in Eternal War. Mostly because I enjoy the World Eater Vanguard theming. Based on your commentary I really hope they make it work better in Operations.
As do I.
I play this class because parry. Tactical is a thumb up but only chainsword. Bulwarks parry animations are a bit weird. I always forget to go invisible with sniper. Assault is probably my favourite but it’s usually taken and I feel I have to please everyone and always switch off. Oh and heavy gets no melee weapon so that’s a no as well. Thus, I play vanguard. Also first proper Warhammer box I got was infiltrators so there’s probably something there as well.
Vanguard should have access to the SMG bolter...
Vanguard's a weird one to me. Another melee with a gap-closer ability. But in the case of Assault, they can get up to movement shenanigans with it while the Vanguard just dives foot-first into the haystack to pick out that one particular needle. That haystack is also filled with fire ants and you just so happen to be allergic. It's of little surprise that so many folks turn to the melta, because nothing clears out a haystack-and ants-like copious amounts of fire.
Anyway I've messed around with the Melta on Vanguard and it's not really my cup of tea. For whatever ungodly reason I stand by the Occulus Bolt Carbine and try to play some sort of skirmisher role in which I dump a mag into the incoming swarm or elite to soften them up before switching to melee, grappling to them if I'm focusing on an elite.
I feel like the instigator + drop in combo would be the right way to go. To complete it I think there would need to be more damage on grapple or something to speed up the drop in.
This is the way.
@@JebblesJunior Middle row of Vanguard's Gear Perks can amp the damage potency of grapple, though I imagine you're suggesting an overall buff to its damage and/or reel-in speed.
The melta being overpowered is kinda the whole point of it. That's why you barely carry any ammo for it.
For me, the biggest sin of Assault and Vanguard is that the two have the wrong name. Assault has the loadout of a vanguard veteran, including the jetpack. Vanguard instead being the name of the grappling hook class (and yes I know this is because GW for some reason completely alien to normal human logic decided to call all phobos-equipped troops "vanguards" despite that name already being in use) just feels wrong on an instinctual level.
After maxing out the assualt and playing with a good build...i can confidently say the assualt class is fcking great...as someone who is good at the dodge mechanics...the class is awesome
I hope the vanguard gets some sort of buff or rework when the melta nerf hits, I love their mobility and the knife combat style.
I don’t think they need a full rework, but some skill changes are in order.
@@JebblesJunior Whatever, just let me play rogue, I'm already used to the 2 armor points from playing veteran campaign solo.
They realized it would be just as useless as its tabletop counterpart without giving it another weapon option. Honestly makes me want meltas on reivers, could possibly fix the unit.
i really like the vanguard and dont even use the melta much. I think the occulus bolt carbine is massively underrated and people are using it wrong. You are an assault marine but one that actually kills the majors he targets.
Vanguard has +50% contested health gain, self heal 10% health per majoris finisher. The melta takes advantage of the 50% contested health gain but the melee doesnt really do enough damage to feel exceptional.
Vanguard does excel in gap closing on ranged minoris and melta them. It's too bad vanguard relies on melta so much. Maybe after the melta nerf, the +50% contested health will keep it viable
considering what the vanguard looks to be based off of, which is reivers,
these mf's should be the nightmare for the backline of the enemies...
which is kinda hard to do when the bolter guns all feel so goddamn inconsequential compared to the melta, and that lacks the range to really do anything to the backline.
I’m only startin to play vanguard with space wolves after I seen that deathwatch film🤣
Well I'm a stubborn idiot. So im gonna keep running vanguard with the burst bolter anyway. Cause eventually i can get through that brick wall if i just keep banging my head against it.
Vanguard is the budget tactical for me. If I feel like running tactical, but someone has picked both tactical and sniper before me, I MIGHT pick vanguard, if I don't wanna be the melee class of the trio. Not a great idea, but I play on lower difficulties, so we can fuck it we ball it.
That’s the good thing about lower difficulties. You can choose whatever and it’s gonna work.
I like how vanguard does all however he should be able to get majoris executions faster by himself meaning the grappling must do at least 3x more dmg because sometimes I hook to an enemy and trying to cut him with my knife for 5 seconds until he’s executable
I would be entirely open to the idea for vanguards to do more damage with grapple.
PvP Melvins Cope and Seeth. Vanguard blows Terminid bone swords.
Yeah, I picked this class.
Melta rifle and combat knife.
I'm having fun spending most of the operations with no health.
I kill more important shit than my team.
If you're enjoying the melta, might I suggest the heavies multi melta.
@@JebblesJunior what, and give up my combat knife?
No thanks I'm good.
A missundersanding is that only the melta can do overhealing but that is not true all weapons that do overdamage can over heal like the plasma guns, the underbarral granade luncher and multa.
Even assault can do overheal you just need to get the timing right when ground attacking.
Personaly I don't have problem with the overheal bug since the enemies in PVE are very tanky mainly when facing rubric marines and any majoris really, something even the devs know that the boltguns family of weapon are very underperforming and enemies are very tanky, my first weapon to reach Mastercraft was the LMG bolter for tatical and when I was doing the PVE missions with it (mainly when facing chaos) it felt like a water gun with a very punchy sound.
Until they fix the resistence of menoris and majoris, I belive the overheal bug its accetable and also when they give us more ways of healing becuase when on higher defficuties its very little healing going around its less bad when having the healing banner.
I don't belive you're wrong with your points but I don't agree with all of them.
Yes, overheal can occur across the board, but the melta is the biggest culprit by far. They will be making enemies less spongy in the same patch that fixes the melta.
@@JebblesJunior I don't belive the melta is broken its just the HP system that is broken by itself, the melta is not the culprit of anything, its just a oversize shotgun, its great a CQB but beyond that it work fine, a slow fire rate, long reload with zero range.
I belive both assault and vanguard are balance people are just exaggerating the situation they're both very different play style one being hit and run tatics (assault) and flaking (vanguard).
The only thing weak about assault its the nerf version of his jetpack that we use on PVE compare to PVP, it makes little sence to keep the nerf version on PVE and the better one on PVP, but I hope they make the jetpack better a manover with the PVP jetpack on PVE and a lower colddown so you can use the jetpack more.
I need to play with you dude, absolute laugh riot!
so since this class is so heavily dependent on the melta rifle would tactical be more preferred than vanguard as well? obviously heavy multi-melta is the best but I'd say tactical with its auspex could do a better job
You will deal more damage and have more ammo sustain. But you will have very little surviability and no ways to close the gap to deal with priority targets. So it really depends on team composition and tools you bring in the fight. If you don't have anyone to deal with the targets in the back, you will have a hard time with the melta on the tactical once they fix the overheal bug.
Idk man, better parry window, better dodge window, a perk that allows you ignore death every 2 minutes and a team perk that gives the whole team 15% of their ability cooldown on a execution is a pretty helpful perk. So I agree the other weapons aren't very good and the ability compared to other classes ability is not as impressive but saying the Vanguard perk tree is bad seems short sighted imo. I do hope the Vanguard does get those changes you asked for. Absolutely would make the hook 10x more interesting and put somewhat of a skill ceiling on it
Think of it this way. A parry is nigh impossible to miss in the first place, you need to be half dead for the dodge to kick in, and you need to take fatal damage for the extra armor. A class like the assault can do that without dipping into health and maintain the mobility.
As for the ability regen perk, that one is great, but I'd like to see 20% or 25% to give it more utility.
It's sniper, but you're out of ammunition. At least you get a +50% parry window perk?
Elite sniper with moderate CC.
Why? Because I set up with the combat knife and shoulder bash. And I personally like the Instigator for ranged horde clear. And I do just as fine.
I do agree that there needs to be some tuning on Vanguard like the grapnel launcher needing to be able to pull you on terrain. It would also make sense to have both Vanguard and Sniper have an inherent 25/30% increased movement speed, with Tactical and Assault having 15/20% and Heavy & Bulwark as baseline.
My issue is that mid-life classes are incredibly clunky and convoluted, and even quite a few of the class perks aren’t set up to either give great returns by focusing on Extremis/Terminus threats or minor bonuses for Majoris or higher. At end tier, you get the option to pick and choose, but with the current unlock system and choices, a lot of class love and hate is down to what you get at that point of the grind sticking to you.
Also they’re not nerfing the melta, they removing the overhealing. The devs already spoke about it. (The 1% final heal is actually a 10% heal btw)
Yes, that's why I said fixing. I also think it's going to get hit with a nerf when it remains the most oppressive force in the game.
Don't ever listen to what devs say. Watch what they do instead. You will be less disappointed when you apply this mindset.
Chaos Vanguard ahem Khorne Berzeeker is where the joy is hes so happy about carnage in general. What if 2 chainswords but overall Vanguard aint that bad if you mind your surroundings!
Oh no, you got me @2:15. I was definitely laughing 😂