You can be mad, but I'm still gonna be right. Here's to hoping I get to make a video once this class is worthwhile. The Discord server here (18+) / discord #warhammer40k #warhammer #spacemarines
"You could lobotomize a chimpanzee, hand it a Melta, and it would figure things out and top frag." Has to be one of the greatest lines of all time @1:57 "Here's how you play Vanguard best" (gives step by step tutorial on how to swap classes)
I for one applaud 40k’s commitment to making sure the Primaris Reiver (which is what the Vanguard would be without the Melta) remains just as useless in any media adaptation as they are on the tabletop.
Level 9 vanguard here. I enjoy this class solely because I can put an Angry Marines skin on it and the voice lines feel like they're in-character. Edit: while I'm here, I would like to say that I really wish there was a checkered pattern for pauldrons and a heart-shaped decal. My bulwark feels kinda off-brand without them.
Jebbles i'm here before watching the video, and i'll be very upset if there's ANY Vanguard Slander. ANY. Update: I'm not even mad. This is just. I feel like i've had the wind sucked out of me. I'm gonna go drink and hold one of my phobos marines like Hamlet holding Yorick's skull, and rethink some things. A minute and a half in. Update 2: compare ME to LORGAR "who's your daddy" AURELIAN?? I'm mad again. Always love the emotional rollercoaster. Update 3: 7:52, Vanguard is never coming back from being hit with "bone density of an 8 year old girl" and "amphetamine laced fuckwit" in such quick succession. Not beating the survivability accusations today.
You couldn’t beat the accusations because you don’t have a melta. You are a real life vanguard confirmed! I say that from a place of love. I’m a salamander bulwark, so I will always protect the weak! ;)
Nah bro is not controversial is facts, the only thing Vanguard does better is parrying in a horde, when you get surrounded no class can parry more frequently but thats hardly great when you can just have a sniper headshot things down from safety
Yeah, but not really. Sniper does benefit from the Health glitch, if you are using the Las. But once they fixed it, it Will be a cannon glass. Vanguard otherwise, does benefit a lot from being the tip of spear, he gains 50% more contested Health, and paired with an tactical, gains 80% more contested HP. He does have the most durability between the classes against every type of enemy (except bulwark) and its a beast to take out extremis and bosses by dodgin it. All that, without HP bug or melta. Also, the Health regen perk at level 25 is bugged, it says you regen about 1% HP for every majoris executed, but um paper, you gain about 10% HP Back.
I really appreciate how when you said go play another class, you stuck to your guns and ran footage of everyone else but the vanguard after he had his two minutes of fame. (Its all the class deserves)
I think the melta criticism is completely justified - the weapon is hard carrying players. That being said, I must admit that I don't understand your criticism about the perk tree. I think Vanguard oozes with customizability, for whether you want to be a single target menace, team support, or in-your-face bruiser. Regarding the later, I don't see how Vanguard is squishier than other melee classes. You have basis 50% faster contested health regen, options to reduce ranged, melee AND flat %-damage, increased parry AND dodge windows as well as good healing on executions. This make a good melee vanguard tanky as shit. And on top of that you have some of the best team abilities in the game.
You are totally right, In my oppinion, this guy is not very credible, when he says : - vanguard is squishy and wouldn't be able to survive without the melta when the class (like you even say) recovers more contested health, has many damage mitigation tools and options for extended perfect parry and/or dodge windows. - vanguard has bad mobility when you can litteraly use ennemies as anchor points to move around the battlefield, he also doesn't understand that the maps weren't designed with the same verticality in mind as campaign or PvP. - heavy with a melta is a better vanguard, I would love to see his heavy trying to disrupt 5-6 warriors in the back shooting at him while dealing with the frontline of ennemies. His iron halo won't cut it. Guy is hating on a class that has one of the best aura in the game, insane mobility and disruption capabilities. Vanguard has a similar role as the Sniper, he takes out the priority targets before they can harm the party. But unlike the sniper, who's good at keeping attention away from him, the vanguard is good at drawing attention to himself and reducing pressure against his allies when they get overwhelmed. With the right tools, you can be a horde clearing machine and an insane duelist. Add a bunch of Kraks on top and now you are unstoppable. People should absolutely play this class, it feels good to play and it's very good at its job.
@@fredericbrasseur7399 pretty much. The guy makes good cases for some arguments, but other times it just seems like he deliberately tries to disagree with the vast community, whilst sprinkling on edgy commentary which boils down to “you just gotta get good”, without looking at the objective nature of things. It’s a fact that more and more assault players have swapped to chainsword due to its great swing speed and moveset. When you consider that the assault has shit perks in comparison to Vanguard, his opinions just doesn’t make sense. But I would love to see a “real” argument otherwise. Besides, when they fix the overhealing bug, assault will be nerfed as well (like all classes with substantial AOE burst). He is acting like the issue only effects the Melta
The problem is that is not how people are playing him. By comparison, he is not as tanky as a bulwark, and lacks the mobility of assault. He is surviving because of the melta, currently. His ability pretty much has one utility, it doesn’t really do much for the team as a whole. As for team perks, the only one they should be taking is inner fire, but I have yet to play with a vanguard who has taken it. They seem to mostly take melee champion. That’s good, but it doesn’t really benefit the whole team. Sniper and assault basically don’t get any benefit. Whereas regenerating abilities is absolutely busted, and synergizes with every class. That’s more of an issue with the player base, though, not the class itself.
@@kolbywilliams7234 I agree. Players aren't incentivized to build melee when the Melta exists in it's current state. I think vanguards ability has good utility, as it allows him quickly cover distance, instantly stun key targets, and also prevent backups. Regarding the team ability - I'm mainly seeing inner fire in my ruthless teams, but melee champion is still good, as melee becomes prevelant in higher difficulties. Besides, you could say the same about gunstrike damage on Assualt not being useful as well several classes. Regarding the health regen issues, the Melta is the most obvious case of it, but the bug is appliable for all classes with large AOE burst damage (Assault very much included). Finally, people often overlook adrenaline rush on Vangaurd, as it gives a good amount of health back on executions. This couples well with his other perks, making him very reliable at hovering around 50% health.
i like vanguard and his grapple and i went into this video thinking "he's alright, why does he really need changes?" and frankly everything recommended is something i would LOVE to see on vanguard. i play him because i like how the grapple feels, it's fun. giving us the eternal war grapple would make him significantly more fun whilst also making him significantly stronger
Many various problems of the game are addressed if the game had a core mechanic to recover health and/or stim charges on melee finisher, for everyone. Then perks to strengthen it to various degrees based upon class role. And it's a very simple fix for them to implement. Leave headshots replenishing armor. Melee finishers replenish health/stim charges. Then they can balance weapons as needed but are afraid to touch an OP weapon in need of a nerf because the know it is carrying a class and it will hurt all the players who like and want to play that class.
@@JebblesJunior Disagree completely. What it would do is remove the desperate looking around for stim charges and more properly represent a Space Marine type gameplay than the current more generic spam-rolling gaminess that can be found in a multitude of other games. And as players unlocked stronger builds and weapons it would allow the ramping up of enemy numbers to more proper horde/swarms levels. And again, it removes the need to protect brokenly OP weapons simply because they are carrying a melee system that has this flaw at its core. Which then results in more weapon variety and builds viability.
@@piedpiper1172 Whatever amount could be tuned. But the game clearly needs some sort of health/stim charge replenishment that everyone has access to as a core mechanic. Nobody wants the game too easy. But it also shouldn't feel like our walking tank posthumans are made of tissue paper and have aggressive melee play punished as it currently is. Such aggressive play should be rewarded in a game about walking tank posthumans.
@@whatisbestinlife8112 I do think that non melta users are under estimating how big a role multi hit healing plays in the current game. Everything from bolter kraken rounds to the chainsword stomp can trigger the same healing effect the melta farms so easily, and even little bits of that add up. Most people know overcharged plasma and grenade launcher can do it as well, but even still I really can’t help but wonder if playtesting and balancing was done with this bug present. The game feels like it’s at its intended difficulty with the bug present, which means fixing the bug will radically alter that balance. I do wonder if they’ll decide to make some other adjustment to healing along side it. Imo, melta healing is probably too strong, but with another difficulty tier coming, I largely feel it’s better to increase healing on most guns, or really significantly increase congested health windows. If you happen not to have the +time team trait from a teammate, you can take a hit while firing with any of the non-grenade launcher bolters and you’ll still run out of time to recover the available contested health even if you were firing the exact moment the window began. Completely removing over-healing will really ramp this issue up, because now every single missed window is permanent. Alternatively, drop pod check points fully healing everyone (instead of just bulwark and heavy with +hp trait) would go a long way on this. Mistakes would still matter, but a single mistake won’t tax you for an entire run. It also just feels weird that our battle barge dropped us up to 9 weapons (including duplicates) but not a single first aid kit.
Yeah you made some solid points that I can’t disagree with. There’s a big problem when the only thing that makes the class viable is one gun in his kit and the buggy overheal. Not to mention his role can be done better. When I played ruthless with a relic instigator, I felt like I was being babysat by my tactical and heavy teammates that were doing all the lifting. But as soon as I switch to the melta I felt like I was benefiting to the team again.
I disagree. This isn't a new concept; it's similar to the Vanguard class from Mass Effect-fun there and fun here. Is the Melta overpowered? Sure, especially the health recovery aspect, which the devs have already acknowledged and plan to fix. Personally, I don't rely on it; we just time banner drops on bulwarks to regain health. The Melta has the worst fire rate, reload speed, and range, so it makes sense that up close it deals heavy damage. A weapon that melts tanks should definitely stagger a warrior. In my squad, I zip to the backline to take out threats like venom cannons, and if a teammate needs help, I’m there quick. Vanguard's perks are solid, with tough choices to make. It sounds like you're frustrated with how Melta classes outperform others, but from what the devs have said, they’re not nerfing it beyond the health fix-just balancing health values so other weapons feel more impactful.
As I said, I don't have a problem with people playing on easy mode. The issue is the melta covering for the Vanguards awful perks. Compared to every other class, they don't stand up without the crutch. Basing the vanguard around the current grapple is just making a worse version of assault.
@@JebblesJunior I think if that were true you wouldn't being calling it easy mode you would be calling it melta. The issue is you just say "These perks suck" without a single example or comparison. Arguably the best squad perk in the game, a cheat death every 2 minutes. Diving kick aids AoE to grapple, and tip of the spear debuffs everything you just hit with it. With how fast your getting your Grapple back at that point, your constantly Aoeing and Debuffing the pack everyone else is attacking. Parry and dodge windows. Explain why you think there bad using actual information next time.
I would point out that the bulwark full heal is also a bug, the banner is only supposed to regen armour. If you take off the perk that insta revives teammate's you won't see a full bar of contestable health.
Counterpoint: Melta aside, I feel like the Vanguard is the close-range duelist class out of all of them. Assault is close-range AOE. He is squishy compared to everyone but the sniper, but his perks more than make up for it. Much more forgiving parry windows, better opportunities for damage with perfect dodge, and his dodge animations are less clunky. He's a dancer to the Assault's beatstick. Plus he is more capable of helping in ranged fights than Assault or Bulwark, which also makes up for the lack of area damage. He's in a similar role to the Sniper as being about precision instead of mob clearing.
Assault can do AOE but he's mostly a good counter striker which is where a lot of people go wrong with him. He gets better gun strike damage as well as armor even if they aren't kills. Not to mention the +50% dodge window on his thrust dodges. The kicker is that he doesn't need to get to half health in order to use it, and they get their charge refunded if you do them right. When that's the competition to a unit that needs to actively take damage to survive and has less mobility, the contest doesn't last long. If the strength is for ranging then closing in, he should have better perks to reflect that.
@@JebblesJunior I disagree with this assessment just by Vanguard having increased dodge window (with half health) and increased parry windows. Assault doesn't get anything for parrying. Plus Assault's kit is all about recharging or using his jump pack. Most of Vanguard's kit is about getting into the thick of it and using dodges and parries to take less damage, allowing himself to be a magnet while your ranged teammates hit the blobs around you from a safe distance. He gets more benefits out of dodge and parry in the middle of combat. Assault is about getting in and out.
I think in my uneducated opinion, the Vangawd should get: 1.) Like mentioned, being able to grapple onto surfaces 2.) Either a perk or inherent feature that if you kill a majoris enemy you grapple within a few seconds, you get a free immediate use of grapple for a few seconds after. I feel like this would really boost the hit-and-run aspect of the class. 3.) Give more perks or boosts towards raw health gain. It already has that bugged 1% hp gain perk, so clearly they wanted this class to be the self sustaining guerilla fighter. Lean more heavily into that, or revamp the health/armor system to make it more meaningful.
So to play horus's advocate here: The vanguard has a much better dodge animation than most other classes. If you double dodge you still get the standard roll for the second dodge, but the quick sidestep gives you the ability to kite or set up majoris shish kebabs far better than the heavy. The melta slander is fully deserved, though. The weapon is absolutely a crutch that the entire rest of the class revolves around.
I had the misfortune of playing a Vanguard first and trying to commit to it. I just picked a class at random that wasn't present in the first game and now i regret it because man i feel so thin. If you want to be a melee class just play Assault or Bulwark
Only discovered you recently but I'm really enjoying your videos. Love your sense of humor and I really REALLY enjoyed your Primarch videos. Especially the Lion video since you and I share a similar opinion of the character (+ he is my favorite Primarch :D)
@shadowsketch926 good enough for me, realistically speaking tho at best vanguard is going to get dual wield knives considering what they can equip on tabletop
I have been watching your videos on the classes and most of them have been helping me get better at playing them, so I was really excited for some tips on vanguard since I have been having so much trouble playing him and feel I'm not having as much fun as I should playing the class. so much so that I have considered switching mains in operations. but, I didn't want to give up on him so easily. so I was hoping this video would help on that but unfortunately this video has kind of proven my doubts that at the moment the class is heavily flawed. hopefully this can be changed soon because having a space marine who has a grapple hook is really cool
@@JebblesJunior I can easily see that being the case in the near future as well and once it does I think it'll be one of the most fun classes in the game but for now I will play tactical since i seem to have an affinity for that class
Honestly it's pretty on-brand for the Reivers sans meltas to be as mediocre in this game as they are in 40k. If Reivers had access to meltas in 40k, they might actually be worth using!
I haven't played Operations at all yet but I love the Vanguard in Eternal War. Mostly because I enjoy the World Eater Vanguard theming. Based on your commentary I really hope they make it work better in Operations.
considering what the vanguard looks to be based off of, which is reivers, these mf's should be the nightmare for the backline of the enemies... which is kinda hard to do when the bolter guns all feel so goddamn inconsequential compared to the melta, and that lacks the range to really do anything to the backline.
so since this class is so heavily dependent on the melta rifle would tactical be more preferred than vanguard as well? obviously heavy multi-melta is the best but I'd say tactical with its auspex could do a better job
You will deal more damage and have more ammo sustain. But you will have very little surviability and no ways to close the gap to deal with priority targets. So it really depends on team composition and tools you bring in the fight. If you don't have anyone to deal with the targets in the back, you will have a hard time with the melta on the tactical once they fix the overheal bug.
Vanguard's a weird one to me. Another melee with a gap-closer ability. But in the case of Assault, they can get up to movement shenanigans with it while the Vanguard just dives foot-first into the haystack to pick out that one particular needle. That haystack is also filled with fire ants and you just so happen to be allergic. It's of little surprise that so many folks turn to the melta, because nothing clears out a haystack-and ants-like copious amounts of fire. Anyway I've messed around with the Melta on Vanguard and it's not really my cup of tea. For whatever ungodly reason I stand by the Occulus Bolt Carbine and try to play some sort of skirmisher role in which I dump a mag into the incoming swarm or elite to soften them up before switching to melee, grappling to them if I'm focusing on an elite.
I feel like the instigator + drop in combo would be the right way to go. To complete it I think there would need to be more damage on grapple or something to speed up the drop in.
@@JebblesJunior Middle row of Vanguard's Gear Perks can amp the damage potency of grapple, though I imagine you're suggesting an overall buff to its damage and/or reel-in speed.
After maxing out the assualt and playing with a good build...i can confidently say the assualt class is fcking great...as someone who is good at the dodge mechanics...the class is awesome
I invested time in the vanguard cuz it appeared to be a focused class on melee, which i wanted to get good with, but kinda sad to see that not really pan out outside the parry perks. I do wish more classes had the combat knife, though, its really fun.
Vanguard has +50% contested health gain, self heal 10% health per majoris finisher. The melta takes advantage of the 50% contested health gain but the melee doesnt really do enough damage to feel exceptional. Vanguard does excel in gap closing on ranged minoris and melta them. It's too bad vanguard relies on melta so much. Maybe after the melta nerf, the +50% contested health will keep it viable
Why not lean into some of the abilities of the Reivers in lore and give Vanguard a stun effect via a vox-amplified scream? Perhaps this can be activated by holding down the grapple button and expends a grapple charge.
Here’s how to buff VG meaningfully imo: Buff the kick debuff to 50% dmg from ALL sources Let the AOE kick apply the debuff to all enemies hit. Gives diet auspex scan on a super low CD, and would make the bolter weapons feel better by proxy. EZ.
I only main(ed) vanguard because I wanted to carry myself to artisan tier weapons and get to better sniper rifles. Which I couldn't do on sniper, because I suck. (but i love that gameplay). Vanguards only pros is that tactical is picked often, so I can play operations with melta anyway. After I accept that I will never consistently do substantial difficulty on sniper, I will switch to bulwark. (or tactical once they buff the bolters, because I am tired of melta already).
Idk man, better parry window, better dodge window, a perk that allows you ignore death every 2 minutes and a team perk that gives the whole team 15% of their ability cooldown on a execution is a pretty helpful perk. So I agree the other weapons aren't very good and the ability compared to other classes ability is not as impressive but saying the Vanguard perk tree is bad seems short sighted imo. I do hope the Vanguard does get those changes you asked for. Absolutely would make the hook 10x more interesting and put somewhat of a skill ceiling on it
Think of it this way. A parry is nigh impossible to miss in the first place, you need to be half dead for the dodge to kick in, and you need to take fatal damage for the extra armor. A class like the assault can do that without dipping into health and maintain the mobility. As for the ability regen perk, that one is great, but I'd like to see 20% or 25% to give it more utility.
Feels like the issue is more just bad teammates than anything else. While every other class is pretty self reliable this is the only one that actively relies on the team building you're SUPPOSED to do. And it's not bad because of that. If your teammates are stealing finishers, get better teammates. If you're bringing classes that all serve the same roll? That's your problem, not the games. EDIT: Before I see any "Well he's max level" or "But they're beating ruthless solo", the lobotomized chimpanzee can do that too if you sprint through the third operation. You aren't slick, everyone knows that strategy by now.
Thank you for repeating that the class is reliant upon others because it's not good enough to stand alone. As for the solos? Nobody considers sprinting through vox as a true win.
hey JebblesJr so you have all classes 25 then whats your take to skilltrees of the weapons overall. i feel like some are good overall but others lag skills overall. Because i have Tec on 25 to so i startet to lvl up some other weapons and notes thats some weapons have so here is your basic skilltree good luck have fun. kinda feel there is some lost potential.
After coming from maxed tactical, when I’m playing with my buddies I keep saying the vanguard is like a poor man’s, squishy tactical. I keep hearing “it’s great” but I’m yet to see it.
Vanguard is the budget tactical for me. If I feel like running tactical, but someone has picked both tactical and sniper before me, I MIGHT pick vanguard, if I don't wanna be the melee class of the trio. Not a great idea, but I play on lower difficulties, so we can fuck it we ball it.
playing vanguard to have a phobos and knife class with the good melee dodge, because dodgeroll on a space marine looks ass. playing instigator carbine because it's a bit of range possibility, even if I'll never beat a non-assault or bulwark at range, I can participate. Grappling is used to go search for snipers, sentinels or the like, the bulwark player is there to go in the horde, not me. and they enjoy the +15% melee damage team perk. I just think it's neat. I'm not trying to optimize, but I don't think it's so shit either.
Elite sniper with moderate CC. Why? Because I set up with the combat knife and shoulder bash. And I personally like the Instigator for ranged horde clear. And I do just as fine. I do agree that there needs to be some tuning on Vanguard like the grapnel launcher needing to be able to pull you on terrain. It would also make sense to have both Vanguard and Sniper have an inherent 25/30% increased movement speed, with Tactical and Assault having 15/20% and Heavy & Bulwark as baseline. My issue is that mid-life classes are incredibly clunky and convoluted, and even quite a few of the class perks aren’t set up to either give great returns by focusing on Extremis/Terminus threats or minor bonuses for Majoris or higher. At end tier, you get the option to pick and choose, but with the current unlock system and choices, a lot of class love and hate is down to what you get at that point of the grind sticking to you.
Yeah, I picked this class. Melta rifle and combat knife. I'm having fun spending most of the operations with no health. I kill more important shit than my team.
I like how vanguard does all however he should be able to get majoris executions faster by himself meaning the grappling must do at least 3x more dmg because sometimes I hook to an enemy and trying to cut him with my knife for 5 seconds until he’s executable
Tbh I think people give the Melta too much shit. I'm not disagreeing that it's currently strong enough to qualify as a crutch. It's just that other weapons feel really underwhelming. The HP bug is the main thing that overtunes it, but at the same time, that's because the overall hp economy is pretty bare bones. I think it's complicated, but I certainly see where you're coming from
They do not feel underwhelming as a whole lmao, you just fell too deep in that melta kool aid and now everything feels worse since the melta is ducked balance wise
My big problem stems from it being able to cover up that this is a weak class. People playing on easy mode is fine, but the change will dunk on the vanguard.
@@JebblesJunior oh it certainly will. The class should have a higher emphasis on singles target damage. I have a Vanguard friend and they had a lot of fun, and were very useful actually, because they turned one charged plasma shot from me into a major kill, with Comms anything is good though. I think damage could be toned up with a good few weapons. Honestly after the HP bug you could maybe even justify it with the Melta. But generally a more healthy weapon sandbox would do a lot for them. Their overall perks are another can of worms though
Sad grappling noises. But hey, I must thank you, there are 2 classes left for me and between a sniper and vanguard I will choose correctly now. I will just not touch vanguard at all!!
@@JebblesJunior different story, brother. In pvp vanguard is great, hands down but in operations, as you say, guy strugles. I`m going to lvl up this guy anyway, he is fun. I think devs wanted this class to be an attenton seeker - you dive in melta trash and then brawl with multiple melee elites at once, while you sniper or tactical pick off range enemies (btw this is how i`m going to play him). But melta turned out to be crutch. I`ll just play him as intended - melta for trash and stagger. i prefer parries anyway - more satisfying and actually skillful plays.
I understand that the melta is broken. Regen way much more than it's supposed to be. But still, the vanguard is really fun. I mainly use my grapple to swing around, like Spider-man. it's actually a class, that can go back and forth pretty easily. Says you have a heavy that's going to be clapped from behind by some tyranid warriors, Only the assault classand vanguard can reach for help, but Vanguard does it actually faster, as the grappling is faster and got a bit more range. Think melta is still a core weapon of this close range daemon, and maybe tweak it's perk, to have this "low health" regen capability, making it an ultra agressive class, like some doom guy. Aim for the kill to get some health. I agree however, that being able to grapple to surface needs to be achievable in PVE. As for the "Barbarian and Paladin", i would say that assault fills more of a warrior role. Berserker should be playing with it's health bar, which is what vanguard is currently doing ( with this broken mechanic of melta, indeed ) The rogue can be operated by the sniper class. But having some kind of speed demon, going up and down, grappling someone and powerkick it's face, then immediatly getting back, is fun, and should remain like that
The sniper being a rogue doesn't mix on account of it having no sustainability for melee. Assault fills the barbarian portion because it's the best at rewarding full on aggression with cooldown and armor resets mid fight. I originally was going to call it warrior as well before I noted that. The Vanguard with no melta only provides mild displacement, it's not a finisher. I think that should change, even if it means the grapple starts doing critical damage.
Mmm have to disagree. Yes, the melta has to go, some perks need adjustment, and the ability definitely need to be a flexible tool. But, even without the melta, vanguard is still kick ass. 50%parry increase plus fencing makes a melee tank out of this class, 50% gain of contested health is just a cherry on top enabling more agression, wich is more than the assault has to stay in the thick of the fight. Yes, vanguard melee lacks damage, but what u need is two gunstrikes at most to down an elite on ruthless. 50% dodge increase when bellow half hp.... this class is ment to take risk and exploit thoose executions. I personally find him very enjoyable cause unlike bulwark it doesn't trivialize ranged enemies and high sustain requires consistency both in survival as hunting elites instead of "push button to heal completely". Most of his problems comes from the bullet sponge issue wich is gonna be changed and hopefully melee damage modifyier for the class. The point is, i think the class is on the right track, besides the obvious melta mistake and that it requires less class changes than assault in my opinion, wich is not trash but his perks have more issues in my opinion. Atm vanguard is high skill class that requires wise choices during combat, unless the melta is involved.
The Vanguards gameplay loop causes them to commit to significant risk for meager rewards. The only useful perks apply to finisher cooldowns, health reclaim, and dodge windows that you need to be half dead for. When compared to someone like the assault, with the right skills it’s one gun strike and the elite is ready for a finisher. You don’t have to take chunks of your health away for it. Nor do you lose any mobility. It’s fine to play a character that’s weaker, but at the end of day I’m not gonna advocate for one as bad as the vanguard.
@@JebblesJunior oh im not saying that, i love assault and i dont think it workes worse, rater that he has lot of uninteresting perk, my point with vanguard is that he has a fun a harder way to play where u can take more risks with ur health. U can make bold choices knowing u will be left with 20% hp cause u can make that up. I sometimes charge Ravagers eatig to damage to prevent it shootin my teammatea instead. It pushes me for very agressive playstyle and its a unique playstyle to him. Again, not that i disagree with the criticism but i dont agree with the scoring cause i do find him fun to play and way more stimulating than tactical or heavy for instance. I do wish the tweak him and buff stuff around him, and no melta for this class... why they did that at all i just dont get. Assault in my opinion needs more changes regarding both his perk and his melee exclusive weapons like the fist, wich is not here not there and works against the class talents, i wish he had the knife for faster playstyle with less aoe and had more diverse reward for effective cc and perfect dodges. To me his issue come more from a general synergy issue and how weapon perks works rather than specific values like vanguard and some perks (like more ranged damage after a kick, wtf, i just got in melee range, why would i shoot??). Anyhow, the game need work and soon hopefully, also the game has general issues that once fixed will change how classs perform, like amor values, genral hp regen, etc so i will probably change my mind eventually. Nice talking to you, love ur videos
If you roast vanguard this hard, im interested in your thoughts on assault, since assault is by far the worst class. It's like vanguard, except you don't have the melta to use at close range. The hammer is laughably bad.
I don't know who's out here peddling the "Assault bad" takes to everyone. The class works great so long as the person who uses it doesn't have the reaction time of a potato. It's stronger Vanguard without needing to bleed out for your perks to work.
@@JebblesJunior I've used assault a bunch, and on higher difficulties, it's absolutely terrible. The jetpack takes too long to recharge, and even the best hammer is absolutely garbage. Takes like 5 charged swings to kill a majoris, and it doesn't even one hit a minoris. Something that slow and powerful should atleast one hit trash mobs. The class has absolutely 0 survivability. IDK how you think assault is fine, when it's literally just a worse vanguard without a primary weapon.
@@Xwii610 You are self-reporting a skill issue here. Splash in for 10+ kills and get charges back, perfect dodge for refunds, double gun strike for instant kills and armor. It's not hard.
But … but I love the Vanguard that’s the only one I’ve ever used 😔 reported for bullying (Bc I never played Eternal war I never knew my grappling hook could attach to surfaces)
Why are you sounding like its the players fault to enjoy the class, if the devs made the Melta the way it is? Also why is everybody shitting on the Melta and nobody f-ing talks about the tactical scan? 200% more damage for the Team? I don't know man, but that's pretty broken in my book. Feels kinda mandatory, cause no other class has this Level of broken ass support
Don't know where you got that from. I feel bad for the people playing it. As for tactical, it's definitely not mandatory, but it is very helpful. Plus, that's a whole ability that's normally on a fair cooldown.
first good developers dont nerf stuff they buff the stuff that did not work. so if they want to nerv this class okay see what happend in helldivers hahahaha or give us more and better wepons for this class.
I resent Vanguard's existence because 1. I always think of Bulwark when I hear Vanguard because it literally has the word "guard" in it 2. It occupies a spot that should've been filled by a Librarian, Techmarine, Apothecary, or even a Chaplain. When I think of archetypes I want in a Space Marine team shooter, "guy who drop kicks with a grappling hook" doesnt even make top 10
Yeah, and the melta is part of the class. Like using a flame thrower in enemy territories. I think the vanguard shows the overall problem with the game. They play it too safe, or simple. The classes don't do enough to differentiate themselves. I should be able to pull an enemy into my chain sword. They're should be unique animations for grapple executions. There should be a reward for risky up close combat
I like vanguard alot tbh, grapple hook and the Armor cosmetics of the vanguard is awesome. Tho i main the 3 round burst weapon cause im a BR bitch in halo also 🤣. I agree the melta hard carrys it tho, My fav class is Assault and bulwark is s close 2nd Question tho, what class and mission is best cleared on ruthless with ai partners? For grinding? (Bulwark and lmao Vanguard is 25 for me)
A lot of people do Vox Liberatus because there's not many areas to slow them down. When it comes to classes, the bulwark is pretty immortal if you can reliably get gun strikes mid fight. However, in general tyranids are easier to fight because you're dealing with less range.
i put melta on the shelf early on and am patiently waiting for the nerfs before i use em again. i really like the weapon, and loved using it with vanguard's grapnel to get right where i needed to melt groups. remove the stagger lock on majoris, cut the range in half, and mag size nerf are all necessary. i want a clutch melee vaporizer, not an auto room clear! (same with rifle grenades, before anyone replies.)
"You could lobotomize a chimpanzee, hand it a Melta, and it would figure things out and top frag." Has to be one of the greatest lines of all time
@1:57 "Here's how you play Vanguard best"
(gives step by step tutorial on how to swap classes)
“I used to hate the Vanguard, well I still do, but I used to too.” - Mitch Hedberg probably
A man of culture I see.
I for one applaud 40k’s commitment to making sure the Primaris Reiver (which is what the Vanguard would be without the Melta) remains just as useless in any media adaptation as they are on the tabletop.
lol nice.
In the span of 2 days this dude has shot up to my second favorite warhammer TH-camr, right behind pancreas
Level 9 vanguard here. I enjoy this class solely because I can put an Angry Marines skin on it and the voice lines feel like they're in-character.
Edit: while I'm here, I would like to say that I really wish there was a checkered pattern for pauldrons and a heart-shaped decal. My bulwark feels kinda off-brand without them.
Jebbles i'm here before watching the video, and i'll be very upset if there's ANY Vanguard Slander. ANY.
Update: I'm not even mad. This is just. I feel like i've had the wind sucked out of me. I'm gonna go drink and hold one of my phobos marines like Hamlet holding Yorick's skull, and rethink some things. A minute and a half in.
Update 2: compare ME to LORGAR "who's your daddy" AURELIAN?? I'm mad again. Always love the emotional rollercoaster.
Update 3: 7:52, Vanguard is never coming back from being hit with "bone density of an 8 year old girl" and "amphetamine laced fuckwit" in such quick succession. Not beating the survivability accusations today.
Is your profile pic Rob Schneider?
@@minty257 yeah, him in home alone 2
@@BertieMAhern that's right, he was the bellboy, nice.
You couldn’t beat the accusations because you don’t have a melta. You are a real life vanguard confirmed!
I say that from a place of love. I’m a salamander bulwark, so I will always protect the weak! ;)
@@kolbywilliams7234 Salamander brother
controversial take, the sniper does what the vanguard does but faster and safer
Nah bro is not controversial is facts, the only thing Vanguard does better is parrying in a horde, when you get surrounded no class can parry more frequently but thats hardly great when you can just have a sniper headshot things down from safety
I'm getting tf2 flashbacks.
Thats true, but i enjoy melee combat so much in this game so i enjoy vanguard way more
Yeah, but not really. Sniper does benefit from the Health glitch, if you are using the Las. But once they fixed it, it Will be a cannon glass. Vanguard otherwise, does benefit a lot from being the tip of spear, he gains 50% more contested Health, and paired with an tactical, gains 80% more contested HP. He does have the most durability between the classes against every type of enemy (except bulwark) and its a beast to take out extremis and bosses by dodgin it.
All that, without HP bug or melta.
Also, the Health regen perk at level 25 is bugged, it says you regen about 1% HP for every majoris executed, but um paper, you gain about 10% HP Back.
@@brunomonteiro7788if you are playing Sniper like a sniper you rarely need health
The melta isnt a crutch its the whole ass wheelchair lmao 🤣
the other options are Doo Doo lmao, you can do ruthless without the melta it's just harder than anything 😂
@@martian4563you can, ive done it, its just so much better when you delete hordes and stagger stuff with one click
“Don’t fucking giggle! Do that!”
I’m crying bruh 😂
Oh just ruffling feathers today?? The bulwark wasn't enough for ya???!!
Never is.
As a vanguard player this hurts but is so true.
I really appreciate how when you said go play another class, you stuck to your guns and ran footage of everyone else but the vanguard after he had his two minutes of fame. (Its all the class deserves)
I think the melta criticism is completely justified - the weapon is hard carrying players.
That being said, I must admit that I don't understand your criticism about the perk tree.
I think Vanguard oozes with customizability, for whether you want to be a single target menace, team support, or in-your-face bruiser.
Regarding the later, I don't see how Vanguard is squishier than other melee classes. You have basis 50% faster contested health regen, options to reduce ranged, melee AND flat %-damage, increased parry AND dodge windows as well as good healing on executions. This make a good melee vanguard tanky as shit. And on top of that you have some of the best team abilities in the game.
You are totally right,
In my oppinion, this guy is not very credible, when he says :
- vanguard is squishy and wouldn't be able to survive without the melta when the class (like you even say) recovers more contested health, has many damage mitigation tools and options for extended perfect parry and/or dodge windows.
- vanguard has bad mobility when you can litteraly use ennemies as anchor points to move around the battlefield, he also doesn't understand that the maps weren't designed with the same verticality in mind as campaign or PvP.
- heavy with a melta is a better vanguard, I would love to see his heavy trying to disrupt 5-6 warriors in the back shooting at him while dealing with the frontline of ennemies. His iron halo won't cut it.
Guy is hating on a class that has one of the best aura in the game, insane mobility and disruption capabilities. Vanguard has a similar role as the Sniper, he takes out the priority targets before they can harm the party. But unlike the sniper, who's good at keeping attention away from him, the vanguard is good at drawing attention to himself and reducing pressure against his allies when they get overwhelmed.
With the right tools, you can be a horde clearing machine and an insane duelist. Add a bunch of Kraks on top and now you are unstoppable. People should absolutely play this class, it feels good to play and it's very good at its job.
@@fredericbrasseur7399 pretty much. The guy makes good cases for some arguments, but other times it just seems like he deliberately tries to disagree with the vast community, whilst sprinkling on edgy commentary which boils down to “you just gotta get good”, without looking at the objective nature of things.
It’s a fact that more and more assault players have swapped to chainsword due to its great swing speed and moveset. When you consider that the assault has shit perks in comparison to Vanguard, his opinions just doesn’t make sense.
But I would love to see a “real” argument otherwise.
Besides, when they fix the overhealing bug, assault will be nerfed as well (like all classes with substantial AOE burst). He is acting like the issue only effects the Melta
The problem is that is not how people are playing him. By comparison, he is not as tanky as a bulwark, and lacks the mobility of assault. He is surviving because of the melta, currently. His ability pretty much has one utility, it doesn’t really do much for the team as a whole.
As for team perks, the only one they should be taking is inner fire, but I have yet to play with a vanguard who has taken it. They seem to mostly take melee champion. That’s good, but it doesn’t really benefit the whole team. Sniper and assault basically don’t get any benefit. Whereas regenerating abilities is absolutely busted, and synergizes with every class. That’s more of an issue with the player base, though, not the class itself.
@@kolbywilliams7234 I agree. Players aren't incentivized to build melee when the Melta exists in it's current state.
I think vanguards ability has good utility, as it allows him quickly cover distance, instantly stun key targets, and also prevent backups.
Regarding the team ability - I'm mainly seeing inner fire in my ruthless teams, but melee champion is still good, as melee becomes prevelant in higher difficulties. Besides, you could say the same about gunstrike damage on Assualt not being useful as well several classes.
Regarding the health regen issues, the Melta is the most obvious case of it, but the bug is appliable for all classes with large AOE burst damage (Assault very much included).
Finally, people often overlook adrenaline rush on Vangaurd, as it gives a good amount of health back on executions. This couples well with his other perks, making him very reliable at hovering around 50% health.
As a Bulwark main, I am envious of the very generous parry window vanguards get. That is it though.
What sucks is that they’re the only class with my favorite Bolter, the instigator.
Vanguard is definitely my favorite class haha
i like vanguard and his grapple and i went into this video thinking "he's alright, why does he really need changes?"
and frankly everything recommended is something i would LOVE to see on vanguard. i play him because i like how the grapple feels, it's fun. giving us the eternal war grapple would make him significantly more fun whilst also making him significantly stronger
Many various problems of the game are addressed if the game had a core mechanic to recover health and/or stim charges on melee finisher, for everyone. Then perks to strengthen it to various degrees based upon class role.
And it's a very simple fix for them to implement. Leave headshots replenishing armor. Melee finishers replenish health/stim charges.
Then they can balance weapons as needed but are afraid to touch an OP weapon in need of a nerf because the know it is carrying a class and it will hurt all the players who like and want to play that class.
I think that may be a step too far. If that was an option most people would never even get below 90% health.
Like a full charge per finisher?
That’s a lot. Maybe some amount, 5% or so, on a 30 second cool down?
@@JebblesJunior Disagree completely. What it would do is remove the desperate looking around for stim charges and more properly represent a Space Marine type gameplay than the current more generic spam-rolling gaminess that can be found in a multitude of other games.
And as players unlocked stronger builds and weapons it would allow the ramping up of enemy numbers to more proper horde/swarms levels.
And again, it removes the need to protect brokenly OP weapons simply because they are carrying a melee system that has this flaw at its core. Which then results in more weapon variety and builds viability.
@@piedpiper1172 Whatever amount could be tuned. But the game clearly needs some sort of health/stim charge replenishment that everyone has access to as a core mechanic.
Nobody wants the game too easy. But it also shouldn't feel like our walking tank posthumans are made of tissue paper and have aggressive melee play punished as it currently is. Such aggressive play should be rewarded in a game about walking tank posthumans.
@@whatisbestinlife8112 I do think that non melta users are under estimating how big a role multi hit healing plays in the current game.
Everything from bolter kraken rounds to the chainsword stomp can trigger the same healing effect the melta farms so easily, and even little bits of that add up. Most people know overcharged plasma and grenade launcher can do it as well, but even still I really can’t help but wonder if playtesting and balancing was done with this bug present.
The game feels like it’s at its intended difficulty with the bug present, which means fixing the bug will radically alter that balance. I do wonder if they’ll decide to make some other adjustment to healing along side it.
Imo, melta healing is probably too strong, but with another difficulty tier coming, I largely feel it’s better to increase healing on most guns, or really significantly increase congested health windows. If you happen not to have the +time team trait from a teammate, you can take a hit while firing with any of the non-grenade launcher bolters and you’ll still run out of time to recover the available contested health even if you were firing the exact moment the window began.
Completely removing over-healing will really ramp this issue up, because now every single missed window is permanent.
Alternatively, drop pod check points fully healing everyone (instead of just bulwark and heavy with +hp trait) would go a long way on this. Mistakes would still matter, but a single mistake won’t tax you for an entire run. It also just feels weird that our battle barge dropped us up to 9 weapons (including duplicates) but not a single first aid kit.
Yeah you made some solid points that I can’t disagree with. There’s a big problem when the only thing that makes the class viable is one gun in his kit and the buggy overheal. Not to mention his role can be done better. When I played ruthless with a relic instigator, I felt like I was being babysat by my tactical and heavy teammates that were doing all the lifting. But as soon as I switch to the melta I felt like I was benefiting to the team again.
Yo, Jebbles. You really think I wouldn't catch that transition at 10:34? That was tasty.
I was hoping someone would notice.
That was smooth as fuck
I disagree. This isn't a new concept; it's similar to the Vanguard class from Mass Effect-fun there and fun here. Is the Melta overpowered? Sure, especially the health recovery aspect, which the devs have already acknowledged and plan to fix. Personally, I don't rely on it; we just time banner drops on bulwarks to regain health. The Melta has the worst fire rate, reload speed, and range, so it makes sense that up close it deals heavy damage. A weapon that melts tanks should definitely stagger a warrior. In my squad, I zip to the backline to take out threats like venom cannons, and if a teammate needs help, I’m there quick. Vanguard's perks are solid, with tough choices to make. It sounds like you're frustrated with how Melta classes outperform others, but from what the devs have said, they’re not nerfing it beyond the health fix-just balancing health values so other weapons feel more impactful.
As I said, I don't have a problem with people playing on easy mode. The issue is the melta covering for the Vanguards awful perks. Compared to every other class, they don't stand up without the crutch. Basing the vanguard around the current grapple is just making a worse version of assault.
@@JebblesJunior I think if that were true you wouldn't being calling it easy mode you would be calling it melta. The issue is you just say "These perks suck" without a single example or comparison. Arguably the best squad perk in the game, a cheat death every 2 minutes. Diving kick aids AoE to grapple, and tip of the spear debuffs everything you just hit with it. With how fast your getting your Grapple back at that point, your constantly Aoeing and Debuffing the pack everyone else is attacking. Parry and dodge windows. Explain why you think there bad using actual information next time.
I would point out that the bulwark full heal is also a bug, the banner is only supposed to regen armour. If you take off the perk that insta revives teammate's you won't see a full bar of contestable health.
your commentary is absolute incredible, so on point.
Counterpoint: Melta aside, I feel like the Vanguard is the close-range duelist class out of all of them. Assault is close-range AOE. He is squishy compared to everyone but the sniper, but his perks more than make up for it. Much more forgiving parry windows, better opportunities for damage with perfect dodge, and his dodge animations are less clunky. He's a dancer to the Assault's beatstick. Plus he is more capable of helping in ranged fights than Assault or Bulwark, which also makes up for the lack of area damage. He's in a similar role to the Sniper as being about precision instead of mob clearing.
Assault can do AOE but he's mostly a good counter striker which is where a lot of people go wrong with him. He gets better gun strike damage as well as armor even if they aren't kills. Not to mention the +50% dodge window on his thrust dodges. The kicker is that he doesn't need to get to half health in order to use it, and they get their charge refunded if you do them right.
When that's the competition to a unit that needs to actively take damage to survive and has less mobility, the contest doesn't last long. If the strength is for ranging then closing in, he should have better perks to reflect that.
@@JebblesJunior I disagree with this assessment just by Vanguard having increased dodge window (with half health) and increased parry windows. Assault doesn't get anything for parrying. Plus Assault's kit is all about recharging or using his jump pack. Most of Vanguard's kit is about getting into the thick of it and using dodges and parries to take less damage, allowing himself to be a magnet while your ranged teammates hit the blobs around you from a safe distance. He gets more benefits out of dodge and parry in the middle of combat. Assault is about getting in and out.
Fair take. Vanguard is my first class and the melta hard carried me to Ruthless. However later i do find Sniper is way more fun to play.
LFG
Time to watch at work
Alright this vid convinced me to become an assault main, thanks big pimp.
2:08 Brother Jebbles says the truth here 😂😂😂😂😂😂
I think in my uneducated opinion, the Vangawd should get:
1.) Like mentioned, being able to grapple onto surfaces
2.) Either a perk or inherent feature that if you kill a majoris enemy you grapple within a few seconds, you get a free immediate use of grapple for a few seconds after. I feel like this would really boost the hit-and-run aspect of the class.
3.) Give more perks or boosts towards raw health gain. It already has that bugged 1% hp gain perk, so clearly they wanted this class to be the self sustaining guerilla fighter. Lean more heavily into that, or revamp the health/armor system to make it more meaningful.
So to play horus's advocate here:
The vanguard has a much better dodge animation than most other classes. If you double dodge you still get the standard roll for the second dodge, but the quick sidestep gives you the ability to kite or set up majoris shish kebabs far better than the heavy.
The melta slander is fully deserved, though. The weapon is absolutely a crutch that the entire rest of the class revolves around.
After playing way too many hours of The First Descendant, definitely agree with you that the grapple hook should work on surfaces
Oh I love these videos buddy. You have earned my subscription.
I had the misfortune of playing a Vanguard first and trying to commit to it. I just picked a class at random that wasn't present in the first game and now i regret it because man i feel so thin. If you want to be a melee class just play Assault or Bulwark
Hopefully the class gets some love and flexibility in the future.
Only discovered you recently but I'm really enjoying your videos. Love your sense of humor and I really REALLY enjoyed your Primarch videos. Especially the Lion video since you and I share a similar opinion of the character (+ he is my favorite Primarch :D)
You have good taste.
Vanguard is my favourite class to play when someone else is already playing Assault and I want to be worse than them
Time to hope the chainaxe drops
either that or poweraxes
@shadowsketch926 good enough for me, realistically speaking tho at best vanguard is going to get dual wield knives considering what they can equip on tabletop
Counterpoint: I want to play a Loyalist Night Lord
I couldn’t even use Vanguard if I wanted to. There is always one all decked out ready to go.
They're saving you the trouble.
It's sniper, but you're out of ammunition. At least you get a +50% parry window perk?
I have been watching your videos on the classes and most of them have been helping me get better at playing them, so I was really excited for some tips on vanguard since I have been having so much trouble playing him and feel I'm not having as much fun as I should playing the class. so much so that I have considered switching mains in operations. but, I didn't want to give up on him so easily. so I was hoping this video would help on that but unfortunately this video has kind of proven my doubts that at the moment the class is heavily flawed. hopefully this can be changed soon because having a space marine who has a grapple hook is really cool
I think this class can very much see a comeback. I'd even go as far as saying it's the first class we see receive a buff.
@@JebblesJunior I can easily see that being the case in the near future as well and once it does I think it'll be one of the most fun classes in the game but for now I will play tactical since i seem to have an affinity for that class
Thank you for your honesty, I shall now seek to switch my main
Try assault if you want to maintain the dynamic movement. If you were playing vanguard, you probably already know how to fight in close quarters.
@@JebblesJunior that was my other option, then Bulwark. Was really hoping to make my Vanguard a kickass Carcharadon, but it is what it is...
@@AmazonAaron84 They'll probably get treated well if enough attention is brought to it.
Honestly it's pretty on-brand for the Reivers sans meltas to be as mediocre in this game as they are in 40k. If Reivers had access to meltas in 40k, they might actually be worth using!
11:48 you hit that guy so hard, you traveled into a parallel universe
I haven't played Operations at all yet but I love the Vanguard in Eternal War. Mostly because I enjoy the World Eater Vanguard theming. Based on your commentary I really hope they make it work better in Operations.
As do I.
considering what the vanguard looks to be based off of, which is reivers,
these mf's should be the nightmare for the backline of the enemies...
which is kinda hard to do when the bolter guns all feel so goddamn inconsequential compared to the melta, and that lacks the range to really do anything to the backline.
so since this class is so heavily dependent on the melta rifle would tactical be more preferred than vanguard as well? obviously heavy multi-melta is the best but I'd say tactical with its auspex could do a better job
You will deal more damage and have more ammo sustain. But you will have very little surviability and no ways to close the gap to deal with priority targets. So it really depends on team composition and tools you bring in the fight. If you don't have anyone to deal with the targets in the back, you will have a hard time with the melta on the tactical once they fix the overheal bug.
PvP Melvins Cope and Seeth. Vanguard blows Terminid bone swords.
I need to play with you dude, absolute laugh riot!
Melta carries fucking nothing when the idiots cant dodge.
Vanguard's a weird one to me. Another melee with a gap-closer ability. But in the case of Assault, they can get up to movement shenanigans with it while the Vanguard just dives foot-first into the haystack to pick out that one particular needle. That haystack is also filled with fire ants and you just so happen to be allergic. It's of little surprise that so many folks turn to the melta, because nothing clears out a haystack-and ants-like copious amounts of fire.
Anyway I've messed around with the Melta on Vanguard and it's not really my cup of tea. For whatever ungodly reason I stand by the Occulus Bolt Carbine and try to play some sort of skirmisher role in which I dump a mag into the incoming swarm or elite to soften them up before switching to melee, grappling to them if I'm focusing on an elite.
I feel like the instigator + drop in combo would be the right way to go. To complete it I think there would need to be more damage on grapple or something to speed up the drop in.
This is the way.
@@JebblesJunior Middle row of Vanguard's Gear Perks can amp the damage potency of grapple, though I imagine you're suggesting an overall buff to its damage and/or reel-in speed.
After maxing out the assualt and playing with a good build...i can confidently say the assualt class is fcking great...as someone who is good at the dodge mechanics...the class is awesome
I invested time in the vanguard cuz it appeared to be a focused class on melee, which i wanted to get good with, but kinda sad to see that not really pan out outside the parry perks. I do wish more classes had the combat knife, though, its really fun.
If you want melee heavy the bulwark and assault can be very rewarding with practice.
Vanguard has +50% contested health gain, self heal 10% health per majoris finisher. The melta takes advantage of the 50% contested health gain but the melee doesnt really do enough damage to feel exceptional.
Vanguard does excel in gap closing on ranged minoris and melta them. It's too bad vanguard relies on melta so much. Maybe after the melta nerf, the +50% contested health will keep it viable
Also they’re not nerfing the melta, they removing the overhealing. The devs already spoke about it. (The 1% final heal is actually a 10% heal btw)
Yes, that's why I said fixing. I also think it's going to get hit with a nerf when it remains the most oppressive force in the game.
Don't ever listen to what devs say. Watch what they do instead. You will be less disappointed when you apply this mindset.
Why not lean into some of the abilities of the Reivers in lore and give Vanguard a stun effect via a vox-amplified scream? Perhaps this can be activated by holding down the grapple button and expends a grapple charge.
Here’s how to buff VG meaningfully imo:
Buff the kick debuff to 50% dmg from ALL sources
Let the AOE kick apply the debuff to all enemies hit. Gives diet auspex scan on a super low CD, and would make the bolter weapons feel better by proxy. EZ.
Having the kick apply a debuff would be an interesting addition to its potency.
I only main(ed) vanguard because I wanted to carry myself to artisan tier weapons and get to better sniper rifles. Which I couldn't do on sniper, because I suck. (but i love that gameplay). Vanguards only pros is that tactical is picked often, so I can play operations with melta anyway.
After I accept that I will never consistently do substantial difficulty on sniper, I will switch to bulwark. (or tactical once they buff the bolters, because I am tired of melta already).
Idk man, better parry window, better dodge window, a perk that allows you ignore death every 2 minutes and a team perk that gives the whole team 15% of their ability cooldown on a execution is a pretty helpful perk. So I agree the other weapons aren't very good and the ability compared to other classes ability is not as impressive but saying the Vanguard perk tree is bad seems short sighted imo. I do hope the Vanguard does get those changes you asked for. Absolutely would make the hook 10x more interesting and put somewhat of a skill ceiling on it
Think of it this way. A parry is nigh impossible to miss in the first place, you need to be half dead for the dodge to kick in, and you need to take fatal damage for the extra armor. A class like the assault can do that without dipping into health and maintain the mobility.
As for the ability regen perk, that one is great, but I'd like to see 20% or 25% to give it more utility.
Feels like the issue is more just bad teammates than anything else. While every other class is pretty self reliable this is the only one that actively relies on the team building you're SUPPOSED to do. And it's not bad because of that. If your teammates are stealing finishers, get better teammates. If you're bringing classes that all serve the same roll? That's your problem, not the games.
EDIT: Before I see any "Well he's max level" or "But they're beating ruthless solo", the lobotomized chimpanzee can do that too if you sprint through the third operation. You aren't slick, everyone knows that strategy by now.
Thank you for repeating that the class is reliant upon others because it's not good enough to stand alone.
As for the solos? Nobody considers sprinting through vox as a true win.
Don’t forget the laz sniper rifle is also over healing as seen 4:50 and 4:55 but also has the added benefit of infinite ammo glitch
It’s been discovered that any damage can overheal. The biggest culprit is the melta because of how it’s damage compounds.
@@JebblesJunior do you think they will reduce that amount or will they fix were you don’t heal past your contested health
hey JebblesJr so you have all classes 25 then whats your take to skilltrees of the weapons overall. i feel like some are good overall but others lag skills overall. Because i have Tec on 25 to so i startet to lvl up some other weapons and notes thats some weapons have so here is your basic skilltree good luck have fun. kinda feel there is some lost potential.
After coming from maxed tactical, when I’m playing with my buddies I keep saying the vanguard is like a poor man’s, squishy tactical. I keep hearing “it’s great” but I’m yet to see it.
They might mean the melta is great and just not realize yet.
Jetpack is more fun than a grapple gun.
In the current state, I agree.
I hope the vanguard gets some sort of buff or rework when the melta nerf hits, I love their mobility and the knife combat style.
I don’t think they need a full rework, but some skill changes are in order.
@@JebblesJunior Whatever, just let me play rogue, I'm already used to the 2 armor points from playing veteran campaign solo.
Vanguard is the budget tactical for me. If I feel like running tactical, but someone has picked both tactical and sniper before me, I MIGHT pick vanguard, if I don't wanna be the melee class of the trio. Not a great idea, but I play on lower difficulties, so we can fuck it we ball it.
That’s the good thing about lower difficulties. You can choose whatever and it’s gonna work.
playing vanguard to have a phobos and knife class with the good melee dodge, because dodgeroll on a space marine looks ass. playing instigator carbine because it's a bit of range possibility, even if I'll never beat a non-assault or bulwark at range, I can participate. Grappling is used to go search for snipers, sentinels or the like, the bulwark player is there to go in the horde, not me. and they enjoy the +15% melee damage team perk.
I just think it's neat. I'm not trying to optimize, but I don't think it's so shit either.
They do have the quality dodge. I feel this style far better fits the character as opposed to the current "dive in and blow it all up" one.
Elite sniper with moderate CC.
Why? Because I set up with the combat knife and shoulder bash. And I personally like the Instigator for ranged horde clear. And I do just as fine.
I do agree that there needs to be some tuning on Vanguard like the grapnel launcher needing to be able to pull you on terrain. It would also make sense to have both Vanguard and Sniper have an inherent 25/30% increased movement speed, with Tactical and Assault having 15/20% and Heavy & Bulwark as baseline.
My issue is that mid-life classes are incredibly clunky and convoluted, and even quite a few of the class perks aren’t set up to either give great returns by focusing on Extremis/Terminus threats or minor bonuses for Majoris or higher. At end tier, you get the option to pick and choose, but with the current unlock system and choices, a lot of class love and hate is down to what you get at that point of the grind sticking to you.
Question how does the perk 15 percent reduction for skill cooldown for every finisher work. Does this include minoris enemies?
Yeah, I picked this class.
Melta rifle and combat knife.
I'm having fun spending most of the operations with no health.
I kill more important shit than my team.
If you're enjoying the melta, might I suggest the heavies multi melta.
@@JebblesJunior what, and give up my combat knife?
No thanks I'm good.
Erm. Akshually. Vanguard is the best class. Because Grapnel hook
Question: why choose the knife with fencing? I've heard that a few times, but no one explained why
It gives you a much better perfect parry window as well as being better at single target combat. Mostly the single combat part.
Pretty disappointed that Vanguard is straight up crap because it looked kinda cool to play
Here's hoping they get improved in future.
Oh no, you got me @2:15. I was definitely laughing 😂
I like how vanguard does all however he should be able to get majoris executions faster by himself meaning the grappling must do at least 3x more dmg because sometimes I hook to an enemy and trying to cut him with my knife for 5 seconds until he’s executable
I would be entirely open to the idea for vanguards to do more damage with grapple.
Thanks for the content!
Brother have you ever use reiver on the tabletop?
Thats 10/10 lore and tabletop accurate representation except the melta, i wish reiver has melta
Talking about the vanguard while playing the bulwark and sniper nice. I actually don't like the melta, I'd just jump in with my melee.
This is the kind of playstyle that should be rewarded.
@@JebblesJunior Thank you very much for saying so.
What a vibe
I dont use the melta rifle because ive already got the multi melta on my heavy. I use the bolt rifle and grenade launcher on my tac.
Boom, twice in a row.
tbh I think they should have allowed the sheild/bolter class instead of two sword classes, something to combo for the infiltrator/intercessor
I’ll be honest, all I’m thinking now is a class with two swords.
Tbh I think people give the Melta too much shit. I'm not disagreeing that it's currently strong enough to qualify as a crutch. It's just that other weapons feel really underwhelming.
The HP bug is the main thing that overtunes it, but at the same time, that's because the overall hp economy is pretty bare bones.
I think it's complicated, but I certainly see where you're coming from
They do not feel underwhelming as a whole lmao, you just fell too deep in that melta kool aid and now everything feels worse since the melta is ducked balance wise
@@sumtenwitty6021 I'm not gonna engage with bad faith. Sorry. Only leaving this reply to be polite.
@@Zer0siks tough. Don't write a comment then, if you won't actually try to back it up.
My big problem stems from it being able to cover up that this is a weak class. People playing on easy mode is fine, but the change will dunk on the vanguard.
@@JebblesJunior oh it certainly will. The class should have a higher emphasis on singles target damage. I have a Vanguard friend and they had a lot of fun, and were very useful actually, because they turned one charged plasma shot from me into a major kill, with Comms anything is good though.
I think damage could be toned up with a good few weapons. Honestly after the HP bug you could maybe even justify it with the Melta. But generally a more healthy weapon sandbox would do a lot for them. Their overall perks are another can of worms though
Sad grappling noises. But hey, I must thank you, there are 2 classes left for me and between a sniper and vanguard I will choose correctly now. I will just not touch vanguard at all!!
I would use them in PVP, they’re actually very good there.
@@JebblesJunior different story, brother. In pvp vanguard is great, hands down but in operations, as you say, guy strugles. I`m going to lvl up this guy anyway, he is fun. I think devs wanted this class to be an attenton seeker - you dive in melta trash and then brawl with multiple melee elites at once, while you sniper or tactical pick off range enemies (btw this is how i`m going to play him). But melta turned out to be crutch. I`ll just play him as intended - melta for trash and stagger. i prefer parries anyway - more satisfying and actually skillful plays.
eh, i say it just get dual wield meltas and grapple executions happen immediately once grappled.
I mean, it's definitely a solution.
Hey, the melta is the only gun I'm good with 😂
And that's completely ok.
I play vanguard and haven't used the melta.... is it that good or important?
It's very much a good weapon.
I understand that the melta is broken. Regen way much more than it's supposed to be. But still, the vanguard is really fun. I mainly use my grapple to swing around, like Spider-man. it's actually a class, that can go back and forth pretty easily. Says you have a heavy that's going to be clapped from behind by some tyranid warriors, Only the assault classand vanguard can reach for help, but Vanguard does it actually faster, as the grappling is faster and got a bit more range.
Think melta is still a core weapon of this close range daemon, and maybe tweak it's perk, to have this "low health" regen capability, making it an ultra agressive class, like some doom guy. Aim for the kill to get some health.
I agree however, that being able to grapple to surface needs to be achievable in PVE. As for the "Barbarian and Paladin", i would say that assault fills more of a warrior role. Berserker should be playing with it's health bar, which is what vanguard is currently doing ( with this broken mechanic of melta, indeed ) The rogue can be operated by the sniper class. But having some kind of speed demon, going up and down, grappling someone and powerkick it's face, then immediatly getting back, is fun, and should remain like that
The sniper being a rogue doesn't mix on account of it having no sustainability for melee. Assault fills the barbarian portion because it's the best at rewarding full on aggression with cooldown and armor resets mid fight. I originally was going to call it warrior as well before I noted that.
The Vanguard with no melta only provides mild displacement, it's not a finisher. I think that should change, even if it means the grapple starts doing critical damage.
Any vanguard non melta mains here lmfao
Mmm have to disagree.
Yes, the melta has to go, some perks need adjustment, and the ability definitely need to be a flexible tool.
But, even without the melta, vanguard is still kick ass.
50%parry increase plus fencing makes a melee tank out of this class, 50% gain of contested health is just a cherry on top enabling more agression, wich is more than the assault has to stay in the thick of the fight. Yes, vanguard melee lacks damage, but what u need is two gunstrikes at most to down an elite on ruthless.
50% dodge increase when bellow half hp.... this class is ment to take risk and exploit thoose executions.
I personally find him very enjoyable cause unlike bulwark it doesn't trivialize ranged enemies and high sustain requires consistency both in survival as hunting elites instead of "push button to heal completely".
Most of his problems comes from the bullet sponge issue wich is gonna be changed and hopefully melee damage modifyier for the class.
The point is, i think the class is on the right track, besides the obvious melta mistake and that it requires less class changes than assault in my opinion, wich is not trash but his perks have more issues in my opinion.
Atm vanguard is high skill class that requires wise choices during combat, unless the melta is involved.
The Vanguards gameplay loop causes them to commit to significant risk for meager rewards. The only useful perks apply to finisher cooldowns, health reclaim, and dodge windows that you need to be half dead for.
When compared to someone like the assault, with the right skills it’s one gun strike and the elite is ready for a finisher. You don’t have to take chunks of your health away for it. Nor do you lose any mobility. It’s fine to play a character that’s weaker, but at the end of day I’m not gonna advocate for one as bad as the vanguard.
@@JebblesJunior oh im not saying that, i love assault and i dont think it workes worse, rater that he has lot of uninteresting perk, my point with vanguard is that he has a fun a harder way to play where u can take more risks with ur health. U can make bold choices knowing u will be left with 20% hp cause u can make that up. I sometimes charge Ravagers eatig to damage to prevent it shootin my teammatea instead.
It pushes me for very agressive playstyle and its a unique playstyle to him.
Again, not that i disagree with the criticism but i dont agree with the scoring cause i do find him fun to play and way more stimulating than tactical or heavy for instance.
I do wish the tweak him and buff stuff around him, and no melta for this class... why they did that at all i just dont get.
Assault in my opinion needs more changes regarding both his perk and his melee exclusive weapons like the fist, wich is not here not there and works against the class talents, i wish he had the knife for faster playstyle with less aoe and had more diverse reward for effective cc and perfect dodges.
To me his issue come more from a general synergy issue and how weapon perks works rather than specific values like vanguard and some perks (like more ranged damage after a kick, wtf, i just got in melee range, why would i shoot??).
Anyhow, the game need work and soon hopefully, also the game has general issues that once fixed will change how classs perform, like amor values, genral hp regen, etc so i will probably change my mind eventually.
Nice talking to you, love ur videos
If you roast vanguard this hard, im interested in your thoughts on assault, since assault is by far the worst class. It's like vanguard, except you don't have the melta to use at close range. The hammer is laughably bad.
I don't know who's out here peddling the "Assault bad" takes to everyone. The class works great so long as the person who uses it doesn't have the reaction time of a potato. It's stronger Vanguard without needing to bleed out for your perks to work.
@@JebblesJunior I've used assault a bunch, and on higher difficulties, it's absolutely terrible. The jetpack takes too long to recharge, and even the best hammer is absolutely garbage. Takes like 5 charged swings to kill a majoris, and it doesn't even one hit a minoris. Something that slow and powerful should atleast one hit trash mobs. The class has absolutely 0 survivability. IDK how you think assault is fine, when it's literally just a worse vanguard without a primary weapon.
@@Xwii610 You are self-reporting a skill issue here. Splash in for 10+ kills and get charges back, perfect dodge for refunds, double gun strike for instant kills and armor. It's not hard.
@@JebblesJunior just say you don't play assault on higher difficulties and move on.
Sad thing as well is that the 2 other guns you have are crap lol so if they fix the melta the class is basically dead
This is what I'm concerned about.
Anyone tell you that you sound like tex from tex talks battletech?
I’ve heard it from time to time.
What is the eternal war grappling hook
It’s the one featured in the Vanguard class for PVP
@@JebblesJunior thanks brother
But … but I love the Vanguard that’s the only one I’ve ever used 😔 reported for bullying
(Bc I never played Eternal war I never knew my grappling hook could attach to surfaces)
You don't know just how much you're missing out on you poor thing.
Why are you sounding like its the players fault to enjoy the class, if the devs made the Melta the way it is?
Also why is everybody shitting on the Melta and nobody f-ing talks about the tactical scan? 200% more damage for the Team? I don't know man, but that's pretty broken in my book. Feels kinda mandatory, cause no other class has this Level of broken ass support
Don't know where you got that from. I feel bad for the people playing it.
As for tactical, it's definitely not mandatory, but it is very helpful. Plus, that's a whole ability that's normally on a fair cooldown.
first good developers dont nerf stuff they buff the stuff that did not work. so if they want to nerv this class okay see what happend in helldivers hahahaha or give us more and better wepons for this class.
Why I'm feel attacked even I'm using burst rifle vanguard lol
You're doing it the honorable, albeit difficult, way. Honor be to you.
Right with you brother, definitely not optimal but fun
I resent Vanguard's existence because
1. I always think of Bulwark when I hear Vanguard because it literally has the word "guard" in it
2. It occupies a spot that should've been filled by a Librarian, Techmarine, Apothecary, or even a Chaplain. When I think of archetypes I want in a Space Marine team shooter, "guy who drop kicks with a grappling hook" doesnt even make top 10
I thought it was too boost teamates
No, that’s what the melta is for. And by extension the heavy.
Yeah, and the melta is part of the class. Like using a flame thrower in enemy territories. I think the vanguard shows the overall problem with the game. They play it too safe, or simple. The classes don't do enough to differentiate themselves. I should be able to pull an enemy into my chain sword. They're should be unique animations for grapple executions. There should be a reward for risky up close combat
I like vanguard alot tbh, grapple hook and the Armor cosmetics of the vanguard is awesome. Tho i main the 3 round burst weapon cause im a BR bitch in halo also 🤣.
I agree the melta hard carrys it tho,
My fav class is Assault and bulwark is s close 2nd
Question tho, what class and mission is best cleared on ruthless with ai partners? For grinding? (Bulwark and lmao Vanguard is 25 for me)
A lot of people do Vox Liberatus because there's not many areas to slow them down. When it comes to classes, the bulwark is pretty immortal if you can reliably get gun strikes mid fight. However, in general tyranids are easier to fight because you're dealing with less range.
@@JebblesJunior good to know :) thanks haven't done ruthless with AI yet so appreciate the recommendation
As an assault main... I dislike vanguards.
True brotherly rivalry.
i put melta on the shelf early on and am patiently waiting for the nerfs before i use em again. i really like the weapon, and loved using it with vanguard's grapnel to get right where i needed to melt groups.
remove the stagger lock on majoris, cut the range in half, and mag size nerf are all necessary. i want a clutch melee vaporizer, not an auto room clear! (same with rifle grenades, before anyone replies.)
I think doing some of the changes could result in better balance, but all three might destroy it.
Cringe