Made Out Of Meat: Health Systems In Video Games

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ต.ค. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 449

  • @TheAmbientWarrior
    @TheAmbientWarrior 7 ปีที่แล้ว +859

    "You can't defeat your rude neighbor by repeatedly slapping him in the shin until he explodes"
    Thanks, I'll keep that in mind

    • @kylejscheffler
      @kylejscheffler 6 ปีที่แล้ว +37

      I think he's just not trying hard enough.

    • @drakegaming3085
      @drakegaming3085 5 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      is this a spoiler from an Avengers movie?
      It sounds like a spoiler from an Avengers movie.

    • @redaminsleven2212
      @redaminsleven2212 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      unless you're freddy kruger

    • @forposterity4031
      @forposterity4031 4 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      I jerk off in front of the window. It's worked so far.

    • @bjorntoby3320
      @bjorntoby3320 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      You prolly dont give a shit but does anybody know of a way to log back into an instagram account?
      I was stupid forgot my password. I love any help you can give me!

  • @thomassteele5748
    @thomassteele5748 7 ปีที่แล้ว +276

    I find it amazing that there have been people who have lived through a sign pole being shoved through their head, but some people die from having a tiny blood vessel being pinched.

    • @WiseSageBum
      @WiseSageBum 3 ปีที่แล้ว +32

      Human bodies are a crazy combo of fragile and durable

    • @undeniablySomeGuy
      @undeniablySomeGuy 3 ปีที่แล้ว +15

      critical hit

    • @biblequotesdaily6618
      @biblequotesdaily6618 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      some parts can fall off its ok

    • @NeostormXLMAX
      @NeostormXLMAX 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      because human bodies are a fragile balance of small chemical reactions, there are specific things that can happen without disturbing the chemical reaction and allowing it to still continue,
      for example, one reason that mercury is so deadly is because the body assumes it to be phosphate and your body attempts to absorb it but because of the atomic weight of mercury it causes a lot of issues in the chemical reactions of humans

  • @davidvino6018
    @davidvino6018 8 ปีที่แล้ว +535

    Amazing talk. The speaker is genuinely interested and passionate about the subject at hand, and it really inspires you to think about alternative health systems.
    Tyriq, you have a new fan.

    • @WatchdogGoon
      @WatchdogGoon 7 ปีที่แล้ว +35

      We are all made of meat, we mortals. In death we are all Tyriquals.

    • @DarkJ0hn4r
      @DarkJ0hn4r 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      well i think the fps and 3rperson can take the formula of Metal Gear 3, when you recive a shot its a probability to need Heal and wait for injures dissapear.

    • @Rezendes
      @Rezendes 6 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      Agreed! I really want to hear this guy talk more about games, despite his nerves and the lip smacking. He's passionate.

    • @Gnefitisis
      @Gnefitisis 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      You're kidding? He spent too much time saying the obvious but without making any interesting points or suggestions.

    • @davidvino6018
      @davidvino6018 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      ​@@Gnefitisis
      That was a comment from 4 years ago lmao
      But yes I still get inspired by this video. I'm not making a game with a health system this interesting (yet, just using numbers for health and armor rn. Doing otherwise might be too complicated for players with 4 characters to manage at a time) but I'd love to work on something like that in the future.

  • @oli4_vh
    @oli4_vh 8 ปีที่แล้ว +432

    I love how a lot of these speakers are just as bad at speaking to a public as me. like 50% has some sort of stage fright and feels/speaks really awkward. but the talks are great none the less :)

    • @andrewescocia2707
      @andrewescocia2707 7 ปีที่แล้ว +44

      they kinda remind me of the eve online fanfest talks i watched , the devs are well, computer guys, sometimes not speaking in their native language. hats off to them tho and thanks for the great talks.

    • @suplextrain
      @suplextrain 6 ปีที่แล้ว +31

      They're bad at speaking to a public because they rarely do it. It's a skill you learn. It comes more naturally to some, but you still have to learn it. Being prepared and practicing said speech beforehand also greatly helps. Finally, speaking slightly slower than you usually do and focusing on articulation also makes your speech better.

    • @ConfusedProud
      @ConfusedProud 6 ปีที่แล้ว +37

      I thouhght this guy was pretty compelling actually. You can its not his job, but I enjoyed his speaking way more than average.

    • @MsJavaWolf
      @MsJavaWolf 5 ปีที่แล้ว +13

      I find most of them not bad. The average guy in university is much worse.

    • @Funkopedia
      @Funkopedia 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@suplextrain Exactly, and if your job is 95% at a monitor, you have to really make up for the lost experience.

  • @jakenielson7837
    @jakenielson7837 8 ปีที่แล้ว +164

    These GDC talks are great. I'm surprised they aren't getting more views. It's kind of hard to get this kind of insight into game design in such a digestible way.

    • @CurtisJensenGames
      @CurtisJensenGames 6 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      This sophisticated side of TH-cam is growing though, thankfully 🙂

    • @cosmotect
      @cosmotect 6 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      Seems like just the right amount of views if you take into count the size of the industry and the amount of people interested in the topic within the industry

    • @WalkerRileyMC
      @WalkerRileyMC 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Mostly because a lot of these speakers have some quirk that is a bit annoying to listen to for a length of time. This guy here is smacking his lips after every pause in a sentence. that is annoying as fuck.

  • @stedunn563
    @stedunn563 7 ปีที่แล้ว +97

    P.S Rimworld is a fantastic game, this has a real feeling of "meatyness" they can lose an eye and as a result they lose shooting accuracy, they can bleed out, they can die from infection, it's quite brutal.

    • @sagehanson190
      @sagehanson190 4 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      The other day my guy got his nose shot off by a centipede mechanoid lmao

    • @R1ckr011
      @R1ckr011 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Also you can use skin as appoulstry material xD

  • @ocarrace
    @ocarrace 7 ปีที่แล้ว +377

    good talk but for the love of Christ why did noone get him a glass of freaking water.

    • @wildgrem
      @wildgrem 4 ปีที่แล้ว +48

      thank *_lipsmack_* you

    • @vikkio88
      @vikkio88 3 ปีที่แล้ว +10

      ahaha fucking hell, was thinking exactly the same thing, can't bring myself to finish the talk now because of those noises ahahah

    • @IronFreee
      @IronFreee 3 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      Maybe so that he feels the need to get to the point before dying of thirst...

    • @jaimemagnum
      @jaimemagnum 3 ปีที่แล้ว +32

      I think it has to do more with nerves, public speaking is tough for most introverts. If you pay close attention you can see he stops doing it in the Q&A section.

    • @IronFreee
      @IronFreee 3 ปีที่แล้ว +17

      @@jaimemagnum Anxiety can make your mouth dry and this guy had a good reason to be anxious...

  • @dani4ever
    @dani4ever 7 ปีที่แล้ว +92

    The first Fable kind of gave me that feeling, I didn't want to get scars on my character, but I was a kid and the simple mechanic took over my mind way easier.

    • @hauntedshadowslegacy2826
      @hauntedshadowslegacy2826 5 ปีที่แล้ว +33

      The funny thing is that people complain about games desensitizing kids, but you bring up an interesting concept. If kids get used to the idea of 'oh, my character got hurt and it had lasting effects', they could easily translate that into the real world as 'I made my character do that, and they were hurt, so if I do that, it'll hurt me, so maybe I shouldn't do that'.

  • @Array_Blacklight
    @Array_Blacklight 5 ปีที่แล้ว +19

    In Banjo-Tooie there's a snow level where you can be transformed into a living snowball and your size actually does grow or shrink proportional to your health bar. In this form you restore health by rolling around in snow-covered ground, growing bigger in the process. So this has literally been played straight!

  • @makingnoises2327
    @makingnoises2327 6 ปีที่แล้ว +13

    OH MY GOD ive always loved catacomb kids, i never bothered to look up the person that made it and he's awesome! great talk!

  • @warcrafthumanlord
    @warcrafthumanlord 5 ปีที่แล้ว +79

    This person obviously didn't play Kenshi. I think the amount of joy he would get from the fact that you loose limbs and that healing takes time would be overwhelming...

    • @KRIMZONMEKANISM
      @KRIMZONMEKANISM 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      You can go further away even. The Fallout games, from the old, to the new, all had a limb system.

    • @warcrafthumanlord
      @warcrafthumanlord 3 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      @@KRIMZONMEKANISM Yeah i played them. But for me there isn't really a contest for Kenshi, from potato peelers (machines that flay people alive), to bone dogs playing fetch with your femur bone to skin stealing bandits that wear your face... It's really nasty. Especially since the game is connected to your party and not you yourself all these things are a natural occurence during a normal playtime where your characters can regularly die off or you can attempt to rescue them and perform transplants and other operations...

    • @Absurdistcomedy
      @Absurdistcomedy 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      You can lose body parts in his game catacomb kids, still survive, and have to hobble everywhere. I think he knows

    • @antorseax9492
      @antorseax9492 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Lose

    • @Ahrone1586
      @Ahrone1586 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@warcrafthumanlord kenshi is the ultimate game, 11/10. You fuckng right.

  • @ryleighs9575
    @ryleighs9575 7 ปีที่แล้ว +105

    Favourite line from this presentation: "...and your horse is like really sad cause he's like "I'm sorry guy, I didn't mean to kick you"."

  • @xTobsecretx
    @xTobsecretx 3 ปีที่แล้ว +76

    Him: "Before anything, we are physical beings"
    Me: stops astral projecting - "ah right, almost forgot!"

  • @gregglind
    @gregglind 4 ปีที่แล้ว +20

    Oregon Trail has an abstract system that defines the difficultly curve of the game. Games about endurance and will are too rare, but exist in literature: the hobbits in Mordor. I would love to see a game based around building morale and morale buffs: inns, crews, good food, sleep, warm nights, etc. Where finding a good place to sleep matters.

    • @ArtSio443
      @ArtSio443 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Darkest Dungeon is pretty good at it. As is the whole "Old-School Renaissance" of DnD trend it's based upon

    • @aidangifford1673
      @aidangifford1673 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      You would probably like frostpunk. It's a city builder that takes place in a massive global cooling event. In the game you have to keep everyone unified with hope and prevent discontent. It's a very interesting take on a city builder

    • @stm7810
      @stm7810 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      It's about group moral rather than individual, but Warfare 1917 is fun because each soldier is a fragile human, but your main goal is demoralising your enemy whilst keeping your own troops motivated.

  • @michaelatanasio223
    @michaelatanasio223 4 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    "When was thelast time you felt breakable"?
    Baldur's Gate. The segment where you fight an assassin at an inn before going to the mines and then come back to find another, again at the inn. They attacked you when you were likely to be weakened and vulnerable- outside the inn when you were likely looking to rest your party. They were noteably stronger than enemies usually were at that stage of the game (offset by the city guards that would jump in to help you as long as you weren't a villain). But you were still very fragile and the fight was likely to knock out a party member (again, this was offset somewhat by a temple nearby to revive them).
    It was the first time I felt... Hunted...in a game.

  • @petersmythe6462
    @petersmythe6462 3 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    "We have one thing in common which is what we're made of"
    A fixed sized pool of hitpoints which are of little consequence until they hit zero?

  • @JoelDuggins
    @JoelDuggins 7 ปีที่แล้ว +27

    Fantastic talk. The transition to Dwarf Fortress was perfect.

  • @Lunareon
    @Lunareon 6 ปีที่แล้ว +26

    It would be cool to see more of these ideas applied to games, especially in VR. Lose an arm? The other hand controller stops working. Lose an eye? Depth-vision disappears. Lose sight entirely? Screen goes black, but you can still navigate by touch and sound. With the help of some more recent inventions, it's even possible to create sensations of temperature and weight. These could be turned into interesting and challenging game mechanics that would work especially well in the horror genre.

    • @Wohodix
      @Wohodix 5 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Seing how poor the gameplay of AAA is we are very far from this , but yes

    • @Moonz97
      @Moonz97 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      This is genius

    • @dicksonZero
      @dicksonZero 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      wow

  • @Taskun56
    @Taskun56 6 ปีที่แล้ว +18

    All the people giving him crap for the noises and whatnot should realize something:
    YOU are here typing away on his channel and mocking him or drawing attention to something you perceive is a failing.
    HE was on that stage at GDC giving a professional talk to other professionals in the industry.
    Not only is he succeeding at what he is aiming to do, but he is overcoming the nerve-wracking anxiety that comes with the weight of what he is actively doing. If he makes mistakes he is remembered for them. But he still manages to get his point across and his industry respects and values his opinions.

    • @NickLandry
      @NickLandry 6 ปีที่แล้ว +7

      This. I'm a professional software engineer and I have been doing professional talks for now 22 years. Yet GDC still eludes me (I tried) but this guy made it. He is there. He is speaking at GDC. You guys have no idea what a big deal that is. Kudos to him. Not only did he overcome obvious anxiety to be on stage, but he also had the courage to tackle an unusual topic and provoke philosophical questions. Great job!

  • @andygomer9300
    @andygomer9300 5 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    This entire talk I was just thinking about Bushido Blade. They really need to remake that game. In that game you didn't have an HP bar, if your leg got injured you could no longer stand or run, and one blow from the enemy could kill you.

  • @nemo84
    @nemo84 8 ปีที่แล้ว +43

    Now I can explain better what made me feel an play unusual health systems, like in Hybrid Heaven, MGS3 Snake Eater or Fallout series. And how they worked... or not.
    Thanks, Tyriq!

    • @willccclarke
      @willccclarke 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Particularly Fallout 1 and 2, not so much the FPS versions :)

  • @TheValinov
    @TheValinov 5 ปีที่แล้ว +25

    good old *operation flashpoint* had the best meat simulation i have ever played.
    getting shot in the legs... crawling to the mission end zone for like 45 minutes! xD

    • @ReverendTed
      @ReverendTed 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      This is what came to mind for me, as well as the successors like ARMA.

  • @Kirtahl
    @Kirtahl 7 ปีที่แล้ว +32

    MEAT! I like the diminishing return question. Because It comes to a point that the mechanics overwhelm the players ability to have fun.

    • @R1ckr011
      @R1ckr011 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Only for "popular" games tbh

    • @paralysekid
      @paralysekid 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      @@R1ckr011 No, it's really a question of genre as he said. Not every player is interested in dealing with so many little details and being cautious of permanent damage all the time. Some games are simply made for a more relaxed time. It has nothing to do with popularity. There are easy games that are not popular, where a heavy recovery system like that would completely destroy the fun.

    • @R1ckr011
      @R1ckr011 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@paralysekid You're not addressing what I said. You're simply dismissing it and providing no actual details.
      "Popular" games really quite rarely have in-depth mechanics. Three's an increasing trend away from them, with a few counter-examples like the resurgent immersive Sim genre.
      You can't escape that certain genres will likely never be mainstream.

    • @paralysekid
      @paralysekid 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      @@R1ckr011 I understand what you're trying to say, it just sounds a lot like you're simply using an elitist mindset of "these mainstream games are so simple, only my niche genre is superior and has complex mechanics", which I tried to disprove. But maybe I just got your message wrong.

    • @R1ckr011
      @R1ckr011 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@paralysekid Not really. Check out Ross's Game Dungeon. The industry has fundamentally changed.
      Most industries have, to be frank. An exception might be television which has a whole swath of new streaming services still, but everything else has undergone rather impressive levels of consolidation not seen since the likes of Standard Oil.
      At least the indie and Rom scene is extremely vibrant. Godspeed to them.

  • @Rc3651
    @Rc3651 7 ปีที่แล้ว +104

    There's something unpleasant about lip smacking, particularly when the focus is on people being meat. Every smack is a reminder of his meatiness. Of his wet, moist meat audibly slapping together and sticking to itself. It's like his meaty meat is meeting meatily right next to my ears, which coincidentally are also made of meat. It's a cavalcade of unsettling horrors all the way down, I tell you
    I do appreciate the discussion though, I think health system are important and they don't get enough focus! Most people have just switched to regen systems and called it good.

  • @Koniving
    @Koniving 5 ปีที่แล้ว +47

    Somebody should play Arma / DayZ... One day I got sick from the rain and went through hospitals, schools, convenience stores, etc. trying to find cold medicine until I decided to lay down on a hill in the middle of the forest and fall to sleep (log out), and 9 hours later I woke up (logged in)...and my cold was gone. Or another time a friend of mine got injured and was bleeding out (DayZ Standalone), we couldn't find bandages or any of the stuff from the DayZ mod, so I thought "look I can't find a bandage, but I found an extra shirt... I wonder if" so I put it into my hands.. and I had the option to rip it, and so I did... and with several strips of cloth now in my inventory I applied one to my friend for a makeshift bandage on his arm.
    Once spent a week with a broken leg, can you imagine going through a zombie infested city like that? I don't have to, I did. Never found so many uses for useless items before in my life as noise makers and lures to lure them away from me before they find me.
    Accidentally swallowed disinfectant once when trying to use it to disinfect my wounds. Nausea, blurred vision, vomiting, my friend tried desperately to help but I couldn't hold still and at one point I couldn't tell him apart from the plant next to him. I fell unconscious and he was attacked during this. I remained unconscious, presumably assumed dead, some of my stuff raided. When I wake up I call out quietly, but there's no answer. My buddy is nearby murdered. Due to carry limitations, he still has some of his stuff so I collect it and in the next room I find the guy sorting what he found apparently trying to decide what was worth keeping and what he might come back for. Both of our backpacks are on the ground in front of him. I've got a shovel and a slight problem, my vision is black and white, blurred with trails, and the only reason I can tell the difference between him and our two backpacks is he's moving and I can hear zippers. Undetected, I took a swing...and hit a backpack. Thankfully in another couple of blind swings I managed to somehow kill him. Except... I killed my friend. In the scuffle I heard earlier, my friend was actually victorious. But his mic was muted by accident, so when I called out for him he replied but I couldn't hear it. He didn't "detect" me because why wouldn't he trust me, he knew I was there. Just not what I thought or was about to do. And I got him because he wasn't in a position to fight back and didn't want to hurt me.
    Meat... hard to find a better representation.

    • @R1ckr011
      @R1ckr011 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      *slow clap*

    • @Spider-Too-Too
      @Spider-Too-Too 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Friendly fire is always an interesting concept

  • @Lechuga1815
    @Lechuga1815 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    I think Uncharted did a really cool version of health that i've always kind of assumed for fps games which was that you died in essentially one shot, but the more you get "shot" is just a representation of your luck running out. Like it doesn't make sense that you can take and heal from an endless amount of bullets, but if you aren't getting hit and it just plays like the enemies are missing until you die kinda seems more legit.

  • @idle.observer
    @idle.observer 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    One of the best GDC talks I've ever watched. Good effort!

  • @minch333
    @minch333 8 ปีที่แล้ว +21

    Nice talk! He should play overgrowth.
    Seeing as health is one of the most fundamental mechanics of games, it would be nice to see more games experiment with the idea, though right now it would probably take a few small games whose focuses would be on exploring their own health mechanics before other games could take inspiration from them.
    I can see more rouge-lites in the future perhaps taking inspiration from the binding of issac, who came up with the interesting idea of turning your health into a commodity that can be traded in. I would also believe it if it turned out that the new doom game took inspiration from bloodborne's health mechanics showing that killing enemies to restore one's health leads players to play more aggressively. I know these are more abstract than what the talker is calling for, but along with a call for realism, I think there should be a more general call for greater experimentation with health, as it has to be one of the most play style defining mechanics out there and too often games just rely on either health bars or regenerative health to signify harm.

  • @batfan1939
    @batfan1939 5 ปีที่แล้ว +11

    My favorite system, that I've never seen in another genre/type, is the body map seen in pro wrestling games.
    Would love to see that in an action brawler or shooter, where an injured arm weakens your punches, or injured legs means reduced mobility.
    You could have injured abs or pecs cause a character wince or freeze.

    • @Justowner
      @Justowner 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      I saw a total remake mod in the source engine which had location damage from bullets, and every time you died you got a full write up on what killed you. Like, round passed through lung into heart, etc.

  • @OnyxIdol
    @OnyxIdol 8 ปีที่แล้ว +144

    Was hoping for a mention of dwarf fortress!

    • @ocarrace
      @ocarrace 7 ปีที่แล้ว +8

      OnyxIdol he talks about it around the 16 minute mark

    • @OnyxIdol
      @OnyxIdol 7 ปีที่แล้ว +30

      ***** Yeah, I know. What I meant was I'm glad DF was mentioned.

    • @timothymclean
      @timothymclean 7 ปีที่แล้ว +18

      It would be hard to talk about this subject without mentioning Dwarf Fortress.

    • @bradpotts1747
      @bradpotts1747 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      he was all people have thoughts and hopes and weird fuckin bodies but i dont see that
      ..but...but you already mentioned dwarf fortress

    • @NexuizIncarnate1
      @NexuizIncarnate1 4 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      @@timothymclean No kidding. Most intricate damage model I've ever seen in a game, even though it could be hilariously wonky at times.
      I'll never forget taking grandmaster kicking in Adventurer years ago and kicking out the entire starting village's teeth in their sleep without them waking up, but then upon picking up one tooth and throwing it at one of them, they all woke up and started violently retching from the pain. The visual I get from that is absolutely incredible.

  • @LotusVette84
    @LotusVette84 7 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    This makes me think about the Rimworld damage/health system. It is pretty detailed, including pain and disease among other things. Also you need hospital bed to heal people, and a recovery time that depends on the injury, the skill of the person performing the doctor role, and the quality of medicine available.

    • @jackawaka
      @jackawaka 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Yeah in a nutshell rimworld is simplified dwarf fortress

  • @OnlyZunkin
    @OnlyZunkin 7 ปีที่แล้ว +67

    Dwarf Fortress models physiology and bodily injury amazingly well.

    • @ryleighs9575
      @ryleighs9575 7 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Being a fan, that was my first thought at the title of this talk.

    • @MajkaSrajka
      @MajkaSrajka 7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      First Deus Ex'es?

    • @user-bf5sc8pn8x
      @user-bf5sc8pn8x 7 ปีที่แล้ว +8

      Quick, eat some candy bars to regrow your legs

    • @thecoolcarhd4402
      @thecoolcarhd4402 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      also neo scavenger

  • @colinmcginty3959
    @colinmcginty3959 5 ปีที่แล้ว +13

    Man, really wish he brought up the game NEO Scavenger. Has a nice balance between simplification and simulation, imo. The combat and enemy health system is also just brutal and merciless.

    • @GurtTarctor
      @GurtTarctor 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      I'd love a proper sequel to that game. I wish more games had that approach to combat and player health, there's probably a bunch of great roguelikes I need to find and play.

    • @MajkaSrajka
      @MajkaSrajka 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Kenshi

  • @petersmythe6462
    @petersmythe6462 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I would say there is one layer of abstraction beyond health, and that is the one hitpoint wonder, i.e. boolean health. You are either dead, or alive. Everything either kills you, doesn't, or has a finite probably of killing you, but you store no additional health state information besides being dead or alive. It might be that a sword hit from above has a 50% chance to instagib vs one from below which has a 20% chance, but, fundamentally, either way, there are only two outcomes. Dead or fine.

  • @GelidGanef
    @GelidGanef 7 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Planetside 2 was a game with an interesting example of a time-cost for injury.
    Okay, technically, it was a time-cost for death. But in my few months of wandering around the game world as a ronin, squadless, I always found the really high time-cost to run from respawn to the active battlefields really interesting. I know squads have ways around that long run to the front lines, but just taking the hit was so much more interesting to me as a player. Having to learn the geography like that. Having to physically return to the heartland of your country when you got seriously injured, then transit back. It was a really unique take.

  • @OnlyZunkin
    @OnlyZunkin 7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I'm glad this guy mentioned Dwarf Fortress. It tackles these issues like no other game I have ever seen. You can end up with everything from missing teeth or an infected finger nail to permanent motor nerve damage in your left hand after a dog bites it and latches on. You could be blinded. You could get legs or arms lopped off or you could suffer less deep tissue injury due to the fact you were fat or buff and the extra tissue absorbed the force from the blow.

  • @invntiv
    @invntiv 7 ปีที่แล้ว +38

    It's not often that a GDC talk leaves you to philosophize the nature of your physicality in an enlightening yet terrifying way. What a truly insightful bag of meat this man is. And his game is truly awesome too. This channel never ceases to present new and informative talks

    • @CurtisJensenGames
      @CurtisJensenGames 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      josh mack Yeah, it’s pretty awesome, but I’d say that there are more inspiring talks than you might think. “Dots that Go For Walks” Talked about abstract art, “Meaningful Choice in Level Design” Talked about physchology and neurology, and “Lessons games can learn from Sports” talks about difficulty and reward in life. You should check them out! 😉

  • @ArtoMSaari
    @ArtoMSaari 7 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    I like the dwarf fortress representation. I think many RPGs could benefit of having multiple thresholds to represent human condition like pain, consciousness, physical trauma and loss of blood. These can be impacted by various ways and can interact as systems. Too much pain will take away consciousness for example

  • @georgehall7749
    @georgehall7749 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    This GDC talk has always left an ich in the back of my mind for what could be possible in a shooter. After three years of mulling this over and over I've started a dive into a shooter that makes you scared to get shot.

    • @DigitalMoonlight
      @DigitalMoonlight 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      If you're still working on this, play some swat4 for inspiration if you haven't already

  • @GilgameshGDLK
    @GilgameshGDLK 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    What an exceptional talk. I could listen to this person discuss game ideation/theory more.

  • @Roxfox
    @Roxfox 7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Not strictly a health system (although a long term consequence for failing at challenges, so technically, maybe it is?) but Sid Meier's Pirates from 2004 played with time in these ways! The game runs on a clock, in part to simulate the Caribbean sandbox, but mostly to keep track of the character's age, as he becomes more sluggish and difficult to play as he grows old, and is forced to retire from sailing at a certain age. So the challenge for the player is to get as much done as quickly as possible before the end game becomes literally too difficult to complete.
    There are three instances that I can remember where time is spent to recover from failure. One thing is that crew morale can drop based on time spent at sea and gold earned, and the only real way to fix it is to dock and divide plunder, which not only splits your money up and forces you to hire new crew, but your peeps decide to spend six months on land to have some fun. A penalty that you really start to feel if you have to do it frequently.
    Second, if you lose a battle at sea, you become marooned, and your character has to waste a number of months (randomized I think?) on a tiny island until a passing ship finds him. This penalty can be directly affected by having purchased a signaling mirror or flare beforehand that will increase the chance of being found faster.
    And lastly, attempting to sneak around in a hostile city and being found by the guards gets you thrown in prison for a few months. There's a chance to affect this time spent, also, as sometimes a guard will accept a bribe after a certain time, or if you've acquired a lockpick ahead of time you can attempt to sneak back out. With the chance of being caught once more, of course, so maybe it's smarter to wait!

    • @Dayvit78
      @Dayvit78 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      I played that game allllll the time. I love those mechanics. Now that you mention it, it's kinda rogue like when you have to divide up the plunder and start over with a new crew.

  • @DeTaXeSports
    @DeTaXeSports 6 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Where is the "this is not a roguelike, its a roguelite" comment?

  • @vast634
    @vast634 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Asking in the local pharmacy for a healing potion will get you weird looks.

  • @AStrategyGameDev
    @AStrategyGameDev 7 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Health system where every-time you smack your lips you lose a hit-point

  • @RobinPortnoff
    @RobinPortnoff 4 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Favorite health system in games: Rimworld and Dwarf Fortress

  • @Holacalaca
    @Holacalaca 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Ive been thinking of Kenshi through the whole talk, its entire health system is based on this simulated and simplified meatyness that makes each wound different and the recovery crucial

  • @TomLWaters
    @TomLWaters 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Thank you! This was great. I think it runs beyond games into movies and popular culture. What holds real people back from extreme violence is our understanding of fragility. When games remove that fear, what are we left with?

  • @petersmythe6462
    @petersmythe6462 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    One problem I would say from a gameplay standpoint is: chronic seriously debilitating injury isn't fun. Having a character that has to play around their injuries is fun. Having a player that *can't* play around their injuries isn't. If your character will never leave the hospital again you probably aren't gonna play them. If you anticipate that non-speedrunner players will reset if they get a certain debuff, it is a bit questionable if that should even be a debuff at all rather than an instant kill unless there is some way to heal it or work around it.

  • @ohnree4110
    @ohnree4110 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    At the beginning, I thought the speaker was quite eloquent.
    Then he reveals the "game he's working on", Catacomb Kids, which is one of my favorite games ever! Time to sit up and listen :D

  • @alexreinking
    @alexreinking 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Very cool talk! It occurs to me that games don't have to have a fixed position in the abstraction/simulation/simplification triangle. These can be varied for artistic effect or game play.
    One example for artistic effect is in Dark Souls when Sif starts to limp if you get his health low enough. It's an impactful moment for many Souls fans and builds a unique sympathy for the boss.

  • @0hate9
    @0hate9 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    It should always be mentioned in cases like this that Space STation 13 works a lot like Dwarf Fortress in this way, and is considerably easier to play.

  • @ReverendTed
    @ReverendTed 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I immediately thought of ARMA, specifically the injury and healing systems as employed by ShackTac in dslyecxi's videos, where the impacts of injuries to specific extremities are modeled, including fatigue and pain, and the degrees to which things can and can't be healed.

  • @platonp1436
    @platonp1436 8 ปีที่แล้ว +67

    one of the most enjoyable talks i saw on GDC =) i like this guy, i see real passion for games in what he think and talk about )
    PS: doing rouglike too atm ) browser, flash )))

    • @R1ckr011
      @R1ckr011 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Oof how's that going?

  • @drsnova7313
    @drsnova7313 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Maybe I'm old, but the game that immediately comes to mind regarding simulating "meatiness" is Robinson's Requiem from the mid-90s.

  • @wileywilson
    @wileywilson 4 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Kingdom Come Deliverance does this really well. Even at higher levels, you can get overwhelmed by several "weaker" NPCs if you are not careful. You cant just tank the damage as a meat shield, you need to position and keep moving.

    • @ArtSio443
      @ArtSio443 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      because it doesn't use an "hitpoints" system. That thing alone has been a bane on the whole industry

    • @MajkaSrajka
      @MajkaSrajka 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@ArtSio443 What system does KCD uses?

  • @matthewharris-levesque5809
    @matthewharris-levesque5809 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Random youtubeness got me here - and laziness left me watching. I'm glad it did. Well presented and actually a subject I never considered. Aspects clearly and remarkably well presented. A "good think" piece. Thumbs up.

  • @kennethglenn3613
    @kennethglenn3613 8 ปีที่แล้ว +171

    Oh my god the smacking!!!
    Great talk but the smacking breaks the concentration...

    • @lukelawson2010
      @lukelawson2010 8 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      I was going to say exactly the same thing, great talk and content, it's the only thing bringing it down and it's rather annoying.

    • @a1be31s8x9
      @a1be31s8x9 8 ปีที่แล้ว +7

      Can't unhear

    • @davidirimia6463
      @davidirimia6463 8 ปีที่แล้ว +22

      what smacking?
      i didnt hear anthing

    • @kennethglenn3613
      @kennethglenn3613 8 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Reggae Badger bless you.

    • @FourbitFriday
      @FourbitFriday 8 ปีที่แล้ว +47

      I'm sorry! It annoys me too. I didn't even realize I was doing it T_T

  • @spacenerve9654
    @spacenerve9654 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    The guy who asked the last question left me thinking that the concept of the Grumbles' lore of twins is a form of "meatness" unrelated to health systems. I wonder if he meant to ask if Tyriq also thought of meatness as a concept outside of health systems and if that was an example of it.
    Excellent talk Tyriq!

  • @Zolbat
    @Zolbat 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I'm 5 minutes in and already love this presentation

  • @PurpleFreezerPage
    @PurpleFreezerPage 4 ปีที่แล้ว +18

    YOOOOO
    Imagine a game where weakening the player is what causes the difficulty curve
    Like imagine a metroidvania power-set at the start of the game, and slowly taking it away for harder and harder levels

    • @misterproject8
      @misterproject8 4 ปีที่แล้ว +7

      That could be interesting, but there's a lot of potential for things to go wrong. "Buff, don't nerf" is a common design practice for a reason - it's not fun to lose gameplay options, most of the time. That's why most games give the player new mechanics but also create bigger challenges in turn.
      Still, I'm not saying that it could not be done... it's just that it would need to be very carefully designed and tested.

    • @buhbo3250
      @buhbo3250 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      I'm thinking something like the character has a progressing disease or ailment, and the faster/better the player performs on the easier levels when the character is mainly healthy, the less the disease progresses throughout the game. If you play horribly or dawdle far too much during the game, the character could end up barely able to finish the final levels.

    • @SerDerpish
      @SerDerpish 4 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      That kind of setup sounds perfect for a horror game, but terrible for anything else

    • @misterproject8
      @misterproject8 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@SerDerpish hm, agreed.

    • @dicksonZero
      @dicksonZero 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      i once learnt that some blind people learn how to see with sonar with bat-like behaviours. (whether it is true or not) perhaps instead of nerfing only, we can force the player to give up abilities, but let them use the disability in interesting ways, or as simple as levelling up the other remaining abilities. hell we can even unlock a special quest just to train this new skill

  • @petersmythe6462
    @petersmythe6462 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    One option might be brutally simplistic simulation. That is, have a few key systems simulated as simple numbers.
    You've got things like sleep, stress, circulation, digestive system, respiration, immune system, muscle, liver, CNS, Skeleton and skin. A handful of floating point numbers each all interacting with each other and you've got an incredibly dynamic system. A multidimensional possibility space with many different possible equilibria.
    Whatever they are, the important thing isn't what they are, nor even how they work, but how they interact.
    Even if you are literally simulating the four humors, losing a lot of blood could have meaningful, if rather alien, consequences, with meaningful, if rather alien, forms of recovery.

  • @scorpiusjones5436
    @scorpiusjones5436 4 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    This is one of the most interesting, genuinely funny talks I've seen on this channel. Well done 👏🏻 Also, I ate a cheeseburger while I watched this lol

  • @phobos2k2
    @phobos2k2 5 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    Made Out of Meat: Water Systems in Mouths

  • @genericsavings
    @genericsavings 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I remember Vagrant Story had an interesting status mechanic.
    Enemies can target your limbs and you the same.
    If your limb is indicated red(after taking damage), it would yield different effects per limb.
    Head: cannot cast magic(silence)
    Right arm: attacks do 1/2 damage
    Left arm: blocks & evasion is halved
    Body: received damage is 200%
    Legs: movement speed is reduced by 1/2.
    It was an “interesting” system, although it quickly negated by a healing item.

  • @knight_lautrec_of_carim
    @knight_lautrec_of_carim 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Klicked expecting DF to be mentioned and was really relieved when it was.

  • @elliothellyer933
    @elliothellyer933 ปีที่แล้ว

    There's this one simple game called "payblood" where you have a TON of individual body parts with their own health. Between fights you can sell the parts to buy weapons, and each loss effects you very noticeably. If you lose a foot or leg your speed goes down, you lose both arms and you can't attack

  • @Samarai-hf9si
    @Samarai-hf9si 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I'd say most Space Station 13 codebases fit into the "simulation" aspect of this presentation. It IS vastly simplified, with damage being mainly divided into four categories (brute, burn, toxin, suffocation), but considering it still manages to simulate blood levels, amputation and replacement of limbs, etcetera.

    • @Raggaliamous
      @Raggaliamous 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      I was thinking of this an engaging ecample of both fragility and... robustness. Plus its wield one's enemies own limbs back at them.

  • @notinthemoodfornames8033
    @notinthemoodfornames8033 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Great talk, great point, would love to see a bit more discussion on how to balance this need to make "meaty" player bodies (which is quite essential in inspiring empathy and generating suspense) and keeping the gameplay fun and difficulty-balanced (that is, how to make sure your sustained damage don't lead to difficulty spikes that are uncrossable cus most games are not roguelikes and if you place an uncrossable difficulty spike before the player they get mad).
    Also, dude you talk great but it feels like you're constantly snacking on your tongue or something...

  • @Dayvit78
    @Dayvit78 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I don't know if it was my biology professor, but someone said, we're electrified meat. It's true, we're meat. But what makes us interesting is the electricity. Without that, we're what's called dead.

  • @GnarledStaff
    @GnarledStaff 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I really want to hear an update or response to this subject from someone who plays RPGs. I feel like there is a lot of ground not covered.
    Bandages have definitely been used in games to stop bleeding before. Its more common now but it was not unseen before.

  • @BleachBasket108
    @BleachBasket108 5 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Makes me think of Rimworld and how much I love (and occasionally hate) its health system

  • @vast634
    @vast634 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Health in games is usually just a type of score tally - like a point score in many real world sport matches. Not an actual representation of body function. Makes sense from a gameplay perspective.

  • @atklobas
    @atklobas 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    This talk reminded me how much I like the health system in wurm. individual body part damage, minor wounds heal, severe wounds get worse, treatment and healing can take hours, location of damage effects stats, and type of wound (cut/bruise) affects what treatments can be done. you can have minor damage all over your body that almost killed you but will heal by itself or have a single hole in your foot that will fester can kill you if you don't get expert care.

  • @Kyotita1
    @Kyotita1 8 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    He should try the Romance of the three kingdoms games. Birth, Age, and Death all are involved in that series.

  • @Funkopedia
    @Funkopedia 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Thanks for mentioning Dwarf Fortress. It is key in this discussion.

  • @vama89
    @vama89 8 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Sweet talk. I never considered rethinking the whole health bar system.

  • @the_Rincewind
    @the_Rincewind 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Rimworld IMO has a lot of the simulation approach to health and it is really well done.

  • @SparkingPony
    @SparkingPony 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    The problem I see with this talk, is that video games aren't about persons, not necessarily. They're about an experience, almost always an experience you can't have every day. A game, by virtue of being a game, must have challenge, and reward for overcoming the challenge; there's a reason the Stanley Parable isn't a game, its a parable (hence the name).
    If I want to make a game about blowing away terrorists or aliens or alien terrorists, and the challenge that comes with the danger of going toe-to-toe with terrorists, aliens, or alien terrorist , I'm going to use a very basic template, one that's understandable at a glance: an action hero, a Bruce Willis. The player doesn't need to have some complex story to their avatar, unless said story can enhance the game. If so, maybe I'll choose a Ripley, but even Ripley has to have enough meat to face the same challenges as Willis, unless the game changes entirely to reflex Ripley's fragility. But then I'm not making a game about charging headlong into alien terrorists, I'm making a game about a fragile protagonist trying to survive an extra-terrestrial jihad.
    I don't want games about "you," I want games about experiences. Even if that experience is being more made of parts, fragile, and resilient than your average protagonist. But that's only one kind of experience, games can offer, I want more than that.

  • @MrNeozerahan
    @MrNeozerahan 8 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Amazing talk and great insights!
    Love your passion and will be checking out Catacomb Kids soon. All the best!!!

    • @foreignuser_
      @foreignuser_ 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Don't bother. All evidence points to it being a dead, abandoned project.

  • @spootot
    @spootot 8 ปีที่แล้ว +38

    I've been thinking about this recently and it's cool to see I'm not the only one ;P

    • @andrzejkulakowski
      @andrzejkulakowski 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Same here, same here :D

    • @EvenTheDogAgrees
      @EvenTheDogAgrees 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Whoah, so there's now *three* people who pondered this notion. How does it feel to be part of such an elite group?

  • @kenji214245
    @kenji214245 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Regenerating health is a game mechanic that was popularised because larger companies wanted to cater to a younger audience in action games. Because the noticed that kids had trouble solving the "find medkits" issue. That was pretty much a big driving force behind it. Activision and EA for example wanted gamers under the recommended age to play their games. :(

  • @studionovega1407
    @studionovega1407 7 ปีที่แล้ว +24

    4:13 "our irritating need to do things like eat"
    yes! this man is thinking like a developer. xD jkjk

    • @morganwardfilm
      @morganwardfilm 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      StudioNOVEGA hunger is the biggest enemy when ur in the code zone lol

  • @Gnefitisis
    @Gnefitisis 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    This talk has squandered potential.

  • @rogercruz1547
    @rogercruz1547 7 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    Long live Headshot mechanics!

  • @cipherpunk7409
    @cipherpunk7409 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great talk but I was really disappointed that nobody mentioned Neo Scavenger. It models all kinds of damage to your body and makes you care about what happens to it. You can become hobbled by not wearing proper shoes, you can get sick by inhaling mold. You can die of exposure or dehydration and these both have cumulative consequences if their not addressed. The game is the opposite of a power fantasy. I highly recommend it to survival game fans.

  • @Pasakoye
    @Pasakoye 8 ปีที่แล้ว +13

    Cataclysm: DDA is an amazing roguelike.

    • @threetoast
      @threetoast 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      Cataclysm isn't really a game, because there is no ending or goal.

    • @Rezoix
      @Rezoix 7 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      By that logic sandbox games such as Space engineers, garry's mod or minecraft wouldn't be games.

    • @threetoast
      @threetoast 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Minecraft has an "end goal" now. But yes none of those are games really. Garry's Mod is literally just a toolbox for working with the Source engine.

    • @EnderCrypt
      @EnderCrypt 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      my definition of a game is
      "activity with a failure state or implied failure state"
      at which cataclysm and (old) minecraft are games

    • @kraetyz
      @kraetyz 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      @EnderCrypt So, baking a cake is a game? Or a fist fight? Or filling out your taxes?

  • @Shabazza84
    @Shabazza84 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    If you want a good human body / wound/defect/aging/healing simluation in an interesting setting, play Rimworld.
    It's probably the best recent game out there that uses this extensively and in a way, that makes it matter.
    Enjoyed that talk very much, btw.

  • @MrEkor69
    @MrEkor69 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    The answer to the first question: Everyone wants a more visceral experience. As games become easier to make and simulations get easier due to hardware increases I feel like we'll see more realistic characters that react more truly to the world around them. Part of which will be a meatier experience.

  • @haibu128
    @haibu128 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Been thinking about this for years. Primal Rage was an early example of representing health as literal blood. When your character runs out of health the heart then explodes and your character collapses.

  • @mischake
    @mischake 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    this is exactly what i'm missing in games.
    one thing though, is that i think there should also be not just the physical but also the mental, where your character has wants and needs... if we do this we can bring role-playing back. punishments for meeting your mental wants and needs would be depression, which makes it harder to do other stuff...

  • @Terminarch
    @Terminarch 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Shoutout to Kenshi and Stoneshard. Good talk, cheers!

  • @NuclearBadger8
    @NuclearBadger8 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Kenshi and Project Zomboid come to mind when watching this video.

  • @numic3383
    @numic3383 8 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    I think there should be more alternative system of a humans physical experience in a game for the health system but not in a way that distracts the player from the core gameplay.

  • @zyrxom
    @zyrxom 7 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    that last "question" though

  • @CurtisJensenGames
    @CurtisJensenGames 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great talk, but there’s one point that could have been dwelt on more: how to make this work more from a practical, business point of view. He certainly talked about it, but if you pay attention to the questions at the end almost every one of them related to this. I like what he was saying about the two survival games!
    Building a game from the ground-up like this would be very powerful, but a system like this is pretty intense. Like procedural generation it can be a bear to properly do but if it’s the goal from the beginning it can work.
    Also: many games are far too enemy-centric so this could be a problem. In life our struggles are far more complex than just combat (and that side almost never even emerges for a lot of people) so that’s why the damage of stress, financial failures, social difficulties, and so on have such interesting, varying effects.
    Death is so instant yet so fleeting in games; I think that’s the biggest problem with health trying “meatiness”, but a problem that can be overcome nonetheless.
    I will say that his statement about this sort of system never really becoming widespread is about as short-sighted as saying we could never get a machine to fly. Not to be antagonistic or anything: I’m just saying that this talk could be way more ahead of his time than he thinks!!

  • @HW-ct1iq
    @HW-ct1iq 8 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    Fantastic talk, great conceptualisation. Lots of food for thought. I can see this affecting some of my future design choices, thank you.

  • @MungeParty
    @MungeParty 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Interesting topic but I couldn't get past the constant clicking sound.

  • @Marinealver
    @Marinealver 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    G-NOME, step outside the Mech and in your space suit, you felt very vulnerable. You hear your breath and if you listen closely you can even hear your heartbeat through the speakers. Even exiting the AI states the vehicle you are in as "Human Warrior".

  • @TheFinagle
    @TheFinagle 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Once VR comes into its own (matrix like VR not this sudo VR we have now) we WILL be able to have full simulation of every injury from cuts to broken bones down to a sore muscle from the character having over done it at the gym (even though the player didn't 'play' that part of the game) as defined within the games code.

  • @urfavoritehumanbean879
    @urfavoritehumanbean879 8 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Great talk!
    BTW, I only noticed he smacked all of the time after ending the presentation, wow.