For real. Reminds me of something I heard. You know the difference between a good car salesmen and a bad car salesmen? The car. This guy is a terrible salesmen selling a terrible product.
@@rayertman If it was 'set up' ahead of time, that is only because the camera failed or something and they had to redo something important that was discussed or discovered. This channel wouldn't work if these were faked conversations.
@@rayertman Oh yeah... this guy's a very typical evangelical. But it DOES seem they had already met before the camera started rolling. But this is a legitimate debate.
Holy hell, this guy. He is a machine gun of ignorance. Put a sock in it and let someone else speak for a change. Anthony's patience skill level: Master.
I am just looking for your opinion on apples "apples were given to us by Jesus and it is his love that is going to save my soul from eternal damnation" Alright but can we get back onto the apples topic "are you changing the subject from Jesus now? Why are you afraid of Jesus. Why is it you change the subject when you're uncomfortable" Yes but apples "Jesus is so good man he creates kind from kind" Can we discuss apples "why do you want to change the topic from Jesus so bad? I'm just gonna preach this message over and over again while you plug your ears" But Caleb, can we get back to the discussion of apples "Jesus"
"okay there is contradiction but even if there is, it's my faith in Jesus. And logic kill people, look at Hitler he believe in evolution so he killed people." DJEECH...
if you think the bible explains precipitation or a spherical earth, god does a vague and crappy job of it, also consider the numerous times it talks about the firmament, 4 corners, columns, flat earth etc. you'd have to conclude god didn't know any more about the earth than man did at the time. hmm... cuz he didn't
mark longo *Is there any historical evidence* What historical evidence does the Bible have? It mentions countries and cities accuratly? Well, Harry Potter mentions London and even the Big Ben, so yes. *is there millions of people's life transformed from bad to good* Do you mean people's lives were suddenly better after reading the Bible? I don't think that ever happened, but still I can imagine a kid reading Harry Potter and being happier because of it, so yes. *is there prophecy full filled is there miracles happening by Harry potter* I don't know if you read Harry Potter, but he reverses time and shoots fire out of a wooden stick, hell yeah that's a miracle. Prophecies, no, but neither has the Bible. *the most accurate book ever in the history of mankind* Well that's just not true. If it was the most accurate book it would have exact dates and times stated for each of its events and/or prophecies. *or the most sold and read book in the history of man kind* Well no, but just because a lot of people read it, doesn't mean everything in the book suddenly becomes true. *has Harry potter book ever been engulfed in flames from a car or house fire and survived with not a single burnt or ashed page* No, but neither has the Bible. *the bible states the earth being round before we descovered it to be round* Not really, Isaiah says the world is a flat cirlce, not a sphere. It also says the sky is stretched out as a tent... Just take that in for a second. *it states the precipitation cycle before it was discovered* Yeah wow so they figured out rain falls from the sky and runs into the sea. Amaaaaazing discovery. *it states Israel becoming a nation thousands of years in advance* Does it even once specifically say "Israel" or "within a thousand years"? *it talks about science before science even was founded* Science was never "founded". Ancient greeks and egyptians were "founding" science waaaay before the Bible was written. *it 66 books were scattered around the world with with years and years between each one written and they all stay connected in conjunction with each other is just undeniable* What makes you think they weren't edited afterwards so they would fit together? The rest of your comment is just some preaching about God. I'm just going to leave you with this beautiful quote from my Lord and Savior, Dumbledore: "While we may come from different places and speak in different tongues, our hearts beat as one." - Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
My response is to future readers here is that I’d have to say Hitchens got it a little wrong because the religious people that I know seem to be in torment and not settled at all and I think it’s because their logical thinking brain is in conflict with the fear driven parts of their brain that can not seem to accept they will NOT have a second life after they die. The religious threat of Hell is a devious and dirty, yet effective tool of manipulation and indoctrination and the accompanying carrots on the stick promise/lie of an afterlife of eternal bliss is appealing to non sceptical thinking people, especially those who were heavily bombarded with the fear mongering tactic when they were children. Things that are real don’t need these dirty tricks to convince.
You may never be able to convince Caleb. But this interaction will certainly help convince thousands of others. Thanks for all your good work, Anthony.
Elephant in the room: This guy is not making a conversation. He just speaks, and when does not speak, he just waits until the other person ends, and then speaks again.
My blood is boiling while listening to this guy jabber a thousand miles an hour throwing out such fallacies and passing them off as absolute fact in such a condescending manner at a guy he views as moronic while knowing absolutely nothing about anything he claims to have an answer for. So many false equivalencies, so much deflecting, so much religious threatening passed off as help. He won't even let Anthony speak, and he's simultaneously bashing him for not proving his claims false. I enjoy talking about these topics with people, but he's not they type that can be talked with.
where is even a shred of prove for any of your idiotic claims? why would you believe such bullshit? standing before god? seeing something after you die? dying for sins? you'll pray for me? will you be sacrificing a goat also? may as well, just to make sure. lake of fire? btw, why doesn't god reveal himself to me? l guess he doesn't give a shit, but you, YOU'RE (notice spelling) special. you have drunk the coolaid my friend.
what's with the "pointless life" bullshit? life is what you make of it. you, on the other hand, are enslaved by a lord and master telling you how to wipe your ass. why? because your infantile mindset can't grow the fuck up. big daddy in the sky pays your bills as long as you kiss his ass.
Good spotting. It is good to see the manifestation of uncertainty in Caleb. Has he left the corporation, or may he have inherited the income stream? The poor dude is probably due for a mandible replacement and to visit the hearing doctor.
@@marionmeyers3431 "if you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people eventually come to believe it". He was an evil man but this quote still has some powerful truth to it.
Caleb: "Where's your car? You can't show me your car. I'm not trying to argue about your car!" Brings it up, argues about it, denies it's relevance, all in the same breath 🤔
First, are you suggesting logic is a bad thing? Second, that's really presumptuous to project your feelings about your beliefs onto someone else. Speak for yourself. We all have meaning in our lives. In fact, life has MORE meaning when one knows it is finite. I live more vibrantly, feel more deeply and appreciate every beautiful minute I get. I feel sorry for you if your life is filled with self-imposed chains holding you back from enjoying your life.
Surely this chaps state of mind could or should be defined by a certain psychological disorder etc. His mind set is typical of the type. This harmful condition needs to be measured and scientifically analysed. ‘What is the accurate or exact scientific definition for this mental phenomena?’ A genuine term should be created for the dictionary so one can easily describe it. The term needs to reflect the flawed process of how a brian comes to this state.
AntiCitizenX here some LOGIC If Dawkins is right that we are the product of mindless unguided natural processes, then he has given us strong reason to doubt the reliability of human cognitive faculties and therefore inevitably to doubt the validity of any belief that they produce - including Dawkins’ own science and his atheism. His biology and his belief in naturalism would therefore appear to be at war with each other in a conflict that has nothing at all to do with God.”
Our Caleb keeps changing the subject, every time he gets cornered. He blames his conversant for changing the topic, whereas Anthony sticks to the questioning. Then he starts to manufacture outrage to blame Anthony for his persistence. He is asked to provide proof of his positive, then he asks Anthony to prove his negative. Tsk tsk. Q. I know/understand ('m convinced) that you believe this. But how do you know it's true? A. [blather, feeling, personal experience, anecdote, the Bible is true because God said it's true, and then a verse from the Bible citing that, circular reasoning, etc.] Rinse and repeat. And each time, our Caleb starts yelling louder, getting more and more threatened and scared and angry. Belief is all about emotion.
You seem like a person who understands this method well. I'm looking for someone to converse with me about some Taoist beliefs I hold still. (I'm an atheist, but taoism has always seemed to me more like philosophy than the classic definition of religion). So I'm trying to find out if some eastern beliefs that don't have gods like taoism or buddhism, have similar issues. If you want to, I would love to try and either refute/dismantle the taoism I hold as true or continue it.
When people are relying only on circular belief feedback, if you ask them to tell them why they believe, all they can usually do is repeat statements of what they believe. You say that you understand WHAT they believe, but are trying to understand WHY they believe it. And they go back to statements of what they believe.
@@emeraldkat2167 I see you haven't had a response in 9 months, and your topic of choice fascinates me. (Notice my profile pic!) I agree with you that the Buddhist religions tend to be much more philosophical in nature than the western ones that seem to have shaped the dictionaries. I have also read that the Buddha included in his teaching that if something he said sounded wrong or useless, to throw it out. I really appreciate the humble humanity in that - it's so much better than the threat of hell! As a philosophy graduate, I can tell you that my general view of any good philosopher is that they make their own definitions, distinctions, and logical syllogisms that can be useful in answering a question or giving perspective for certain situations, but they skip over some other questions or situations that their personal system just can't address well. To me, Buddha is no exception. He's just a decent philosopher with a religious background who makes some good points worth pondering, but it would be unhealthy to apply his views to all questions and circumstances. I am not especially familiar with the specifics of Taoism, but does my general rule help you out? What aspects of Taoism or Buddhism would you like to unpack together?
@@pondboy3682 I really appreciate it! Taoism in my perspective and practice is a fairly anarchist view of the world. It starts out fairly simply with the idea that to know one thing you must also have some understanding/experience of its opposite (ie to know what happiness is, you must have been unhappy at some point; for cold, you must know warmth). It also states a variation on the circle of life and that because of this, it differentiates from something like humanism by saying that all life is equal. There is no action a life form could take that would be unnatural. The next part has to do with the idea that all things that need to get done will get done, out of the natural necessity for it occur. For instance, you do not have to force someone to clean their toilet, because eventually natural consequences will force it to be done. And on top of this, people know that if you clean it regularly (by experience or by someone telling them), it will eventually be unusable. I think that may be a place where some problems could arise. The only other one is some of the more modern "spiritual" stuff (ie feng shui comes from this, so does the idea of chi) that's been tacked onto taoism, but I dont ascribe to most of that. Chi is mentioned a couple times in the Tao Te Ching, but it is explained as the energy that is passed from one living thing to another when consumed - this I have taken very literally, as in equating it to caloric energy. It is also gives me an ethical standard as because my life would end without consuming other life, I must only take life to continue my own (ie defend myself or not starve to death) and it is "owed" in turn to continue other life after my death. In a Taoist view, being buried in a coffin or kept out of the life cycle by some other means after death would be an incredible harm to all life and a complete disrespect for the lives that I needed to survive. All plants and animals are essentially equal, and while I may emotionally be attached to specific animals/plants, none has more value to the planet. I see something like cat declawing or dog debarking the same as doing it to a human. Gosh, that was a lot. I just reread it and I hope it wasn't too much. If you'd prefer to focus on a certain part, that's fine. I'm not totally sure if there is actually anything that would be illogical or harmful to hold onto or not. My goal is to really only keep things that will not cause harm (or at min the least harm possible).
@@emeraldkat2167 that was beautiful, and not all that long for deep discussion! Overall, it sounds to me like you're a well-developed thinker, and you've already identified the principle I have the biggest problem with, so it probably won't surprise you. After that, I suspect we will have the most discussion about the no harm principle. Regarding understanding opposites, I'd keep it, 100%! It's not always going to work to find _one_ opposite, but this principle is likely what has sharpened your critical thinking skills, and I wish more people would practice this! As for "what needs to happen, happens", it's very passive. I understand that it's a calming, no-drama perspective that can be important psychologically in a high-stress situation, but mostly it sounds harmful in my view - uncaring, excusing laziness, adding no value, and allowing atrocities, just so you feel calmer. As you guessed, this is my biggest problem with Taoism. In the West, we focus on a strong opposite of this. _ The greatest evils do not come from the action of bad people, but from the inaction of good people! _ Of course, this view has its problems, too. Now for the no harm, or as little harm as possible. I saw a video on the Dali Lama that started with a funeral where they fed the corpse to vultures. It shocked me, but inspired me, too. I now want to be cremated, and returned to the earth - not preserved in a coffin. I do appreciate the circle of life, and the value of all living beings. That said, I do not share your view that all living beings are equal. Worms, collectively, are very beneficial to life on the planet, and are extremely important, but an individual worm is just a brainless, breeding intestine! I would kill a thousand worms to save a tree, and I don't think that's humanism talking! The individual tree objectively adds more value to life than a thousand worms do. I would also kill a million bacteria to save a worm...if it wasn't too much work! Humanism itself, however, is only natural, and as far as I've seen, inescapable! Lions are lionists, ants are antists, and humans are humanists; it's as natural as the instinct to survive! Even the fructarians who despise humanism, and allow their bodies to slowly waste away instead of killing anything, do so because they deem themselves morally superior to other animals. That sounds like a humanist principle to me! I say, eat for optimal health, not mere survival! Don't feel sorry for existing, but celebrate your life! Use the time you have to add beauty and value to the world!
It is amazing the patience you had, Anthony! Unfortunately, I know Caleb's type because I used to be just like him. He mentions he lived in Pensacola which is a mecca for King James Onlyists at Pensacola Bible Institute (the late Peter Ruckman's Bible "college") and Pensacola Christian College. I went to PCC and used Caleb's style of evangelism to try to convince people that they needed to believe in Jesus. It took me over a decade of being exposed to the evidence for evolution and then reevaluating the arguments for God's existence before I became an atheist and an evidentialist. Like most creationists, he has a caricature of evolutionary theory in mind and he rests on the circular logic of "the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." It's uncanny how much I can relate to this! Thanks for posting this vid!
mark longo Did you know that there is no evidence for the Exodus ever happening? 40 years in the desert and there are no graves or pottery or anything.
It's fascinating how he can't stop talking when he gets cornered with reason and logic. He says "I'll be honest" and the last thing he is is honest. Fascinating!
That's a trait of a sociopath, watch any of coffeezilla's interviews with fake gurus, they always burst crap out of their mouth when their beliefs are challenged
But don't forget we can't use logic because that's what led Hitler to do what he did. But meanwhile all the harm caused by religion is swept under the rug.
If Dawkins is right that we are the product of mindless unguided natural processes, then he has given us strong reason to doubt the reliability of human cognitive faculties and therefore inevitably to doubt the validity of any belief that they produce - including Dawkins’ own science and his atheism. His biology and his belief in naturalism would therefore appear to be at war with each other in a conflict that has nothing at all to do with God.”
It will get old fast. There's something very wrong with these people (my Dad was an early Christian Evangelical from the 70s) The only way to help them is to make them self-conscious of their absurd beliefs. And I'm an Agnostic Theist (I believe in 'higher powers' but it's not some old dude in the sky). I would like to see these people TRULY FIND GOD (and the presence of 'Christ' within themselves). I would love for these people to ACT LIKE JESUS!!!
@@TheSimonScowl I'd be interested to hear what you mean by "there's something very wrong with these people" The issue with acting like Jesus and truly finding god is defining which of the 5000 christian denominations' definitions of Jesus and god you mean.
You have the patience of a literal saint. I would not have been able to stay in the conversation that long. I honor your dedication to your practice & art. It is impressive beyond my ability to describe. You are the calmest person, but also solid in your intent.
they walk away from me after about thirty seconds as soon as they realise I'm not brainwashable. I have had these conversations with my local preachers and minister as soon as u ask any question they run a mile. men three and four times my age just cut n run tail between legs. they are conmen and when they see that u know it they won't waste time talking to u. its utterly pathetic
@@odoggow8157 I blow a gasket at the lack of critical thinking and I just can't. I don't get angry, I just see it as not a good use of my time. I love that others are willing and able to do what is just not in my wheelhouse.
Caleb is not interested in a rational discussion. He just wants to assert his irrational belief with bad arguments. I think most people who are believers just fail at critical thinking. They're not stupid, just..... either brainwashed, or use faulty reasoning.
Yea, the same way you have been brainwashed to choose English as the language to express yourself. Following your logic, you are not stupid for doing so, but you are just either brainwashed or used faulty reasoning resulting in you choosing to use English. So much for avoiding faulty reasoning.
Also, I think it might have been good to define "contradiction." Any account that contains no contradictions is simply "consistent." So a good question would be "does the mere internal consistency of a document make it objectively true?"
He did ask for a definition of "contradiction", the problem with the definition was it contained the word "contradiction" so Anthony asked for an example of a contradiction and then gave an example. But your question is also equally valid, instead of or in addition to the questions on the definition of "contradiction"
That's a good point. But I don't think this guy is very keen on answering questions. More so preaching at people and accusing them of steering away from Jesus if anything gets "logical."
Later in the vid Caleb actually said something to his friend (brother?) like: “See Zack, he says he wouldn’t believe something even though he accepts it has no contradictions. So even though it was proven TRUE he doesn’t believe.” I have no doubt the words he used are different but he made it clear he thinks [no contradictions] = [true]. It’s a pity Anthony did not catch that!
35 minute conversation and the creationist never heard or answered the first question. This is a shining monument to the intellectual dishonesty of the theist position.
Nicholas Flamel If Dawkins is right that we are the product of mindless unguided natural processes, then he has given us strong reason to doubt the reliability of human cognitive faculties and therefore inevitably to doubt the validity of any belief that they produce - including Dawkins’ own science and his atheism. His biology and his belief in naturalism would therefore appear to be at war with each other in a conflict that has nothing at all to do with God.”
I’m blown away at the fact I used to think EXACTLY like this guy. It’s not possible to explain with words the sensation of liberation I felt when I realized that I no longer believed in God.
I love when half way through these encounters the people that you're engaging with finally piece together that you're not a believer resulting in a huge shift in tone and body language on their part. I can see the "Oh shit" moment on their face. It amuses me every time. They all start out calm and confident but then, "Warning! Warning! Danger Will Robinson!"
Wow the new YEC-Model T-1000 is expertly programmed, perfectly engineered to frustrate its victims into committing suicide. No guns or weapons required.
“I’m not arguing...” and continues to argue. Gishgallops his way through and does not address the questions... this is so frustrating, I admire you Magnabosco!
Y'know what, that's a much more positive way of looking at it! All I could think was that he'll be spouting the same word salad as Caleb in a year or so. I did (unconvincingly) for a while.. Great job on these, dude..
You're a better man than I for having the patience to deal with this creature. I was astounded when he said in the video that he doesn't believe evolution because he's never seen a dinosaur give birth to a chicken. That's even more astoundingly stupid than the argument that a monkey should give birth to a human. It's tragic what our species is producing these days.
Voey Designs I actually talk a little bit more about why I continued the conversation here with Caleb in my second conversation with Danny 'Shadows of Doubt'. If time, please check that one out next.
He's trying to avoid doing that because as soon as you throw facts at a persons firmly held beliefs it puts them on the defensive thus shutting off any hope of getting through to them. I used to hold this tactic but now I simply end discussions if they begin to turn into arguments, it shouldn't be about winning and losing it should be about opening minds.
I think he means when you're searching so much for knowledge and truth it can send you over the edge like Hitler and the other guys he mentioned. Logic doesn't kill people by just that saying alone
Even though you are correct regarding Hitler being a Christian, they know it too. The point of these types of statements is to antagonize and start a heated argument or debate. That way they can argue from their pre constructed script. Its the match that lights the fire and if you don't allow it, as Anthony did, its game over for them. If you notice at the end, Caleb is extremely frustrated and literally begging for an argument. Kudos to Anthony! Cheers
Hitler was not a Christian, how can so many people like such an obviously wrong comment? All this talk about conversation and questioning and logic but the people who watch these videos aren't very smart at all.
Even if evolution caused Stalin to kill people ( although I don't see the connection myself ) how many wars and deaths have been caused my religion through the ages? His very own God kills women and children. It's such a non-sensical argument he's trying to make
This comment is the same thing he does with the Bible. Look in to Hitler replacing bishops that didn't agree with him. He replaced them for his "brand" of christianity. But that isn't what makes a christian. Be aware that not everyone that says they are Christians, are actually Christians. I don't think I could blame all atheists for the actions of one atheist. Nor do I believe that all Christians are actually following what Christ said hence they are not actually Christians no matter what they tell you.
So what happened after this? Did you continue talking to him by email? Man, you have some serious patience. I could not have resisted. I have a lot to learn from you.
Mistertroy2000 We did email each other back-and-forth a few times and then it fizzled out. However, we met in December 2018 for a follow up interview which lasted for about an hour. I haven’t had the time or interest to edit it, but I might try to get to that before the end of this year. So maybe keep an eye out for that. Thanks for watching.
@@magnabosco210 You said you don't have the interest to edit it, is that because he didn't budge in his stance? I'm too watching your vids because I want to lean how to debate and listen better. I'm even tempted to try street epistemology, but when I read one of your check lists in one of your descriptions it put me off, there were so many things you said/did in one conversation! 👍🏻 Edit: I wrote this comment half way through the vid. I know now why you don't have much interest in editing the latest vid now. This is one of the most indoctrinated people I've seen this year. 😑
@@magnabosco210 that's outstanding. I did notice at one time he moved the goalposts. First, he agreed that contradictions were "incompatibilities within" the document. Then he used "if you were shown it had no contradictions" he equated that with it being "true" aka, compatible with reality. And made you appear to be a dishonest broker
Anthony, have you ever considered starting the discussion with a belief they were certain wasn’t true? I think this would set up some principles that they would not want to contradict once the discussion turned to their beliefs. The reason I became an atheist is because I looked at all the beliefs of others and had a laugh at how ridiculous they were before thinking about whether I was not applying the same principles to my own beliefs. If they can’t think of a religion they know to be false, then that raises the question of how they were able to dismiss them over their own belief.
religion destroys everything in the world and makes people weak as fuck , crying every chance they get to some higher power to help them , instead of , idk , stand on their own 2 feet and DEAL with the situation ? like a human being ?
Anthony: It seems Caleb might be beyond reason, but I'm curious about how you might approach the exchange differently now that you've had so much more SE conversational experience today. Would there be any way you would frame any of your questions differently, or any other way you would like to have tried to steer the conversation?
You know, if this guy is the “spiritual mentor” for the young man (Zach) on the right, I feel like there’s a better than average chance that he ends up as an atheist.
9:00 "You've said so much there and it's so tempting to discuss that with you." Holy crap, what an excellent way to not get side tracked in a street epistemology framework.
Caleb is not interested in conversation, and that's what makes listening to him so difficult. He'd rather steamroll his personal beliefs than hear someone counter them. He even goes so far as to accuse Anthony of insulting someone he has a personal relationship with (i.e. Jesus) then goes on to say that if you DON'T believe in his god you're a fool. So let's recap... By asking honest questions about FAITH, we're somehow insulting his friend Jesus, yet Caleb can immediately turn around and call us fools? Somewhere along the line his common decency and social skills went right out the window. Way to keep your cool, Anthony. Cheers!
I don't think this dude has a clue of how absurd he sounds. I guess when jesus is written on your heart it no longer matters what crap flies out of your mouth.
Caleb is so locked in with his belief and he is operating with fear. It is clear that Caleb views Anthony's calm method as a potential open door for rethinking his position. But because he (Caleb) is in constant fear, he gets increasingly afraid he might go to hell. It is even possible that Caleb does not necessarily want to go to heaven, just simply that he is afraid of going to hell. At first, I was annoyed that Caleb was not answering the questions, but once I realized he is operating in fear, it was more understandable. I have family members who I have issues with around their hurtful dogmas. I am going to buy the book on SE and begin to practice it. It is clear that we cannot reach staunch believers without some method that makes them feel safe. It is SE for me. I definitely need a new approach. Thank you Anthony.
I lost all respect for Caleb when he tried to stereotype you to his friend Zack. Caleb wasn't the least bit interested in an honest dialogue. He just wanted to preach the gospel according to Ray Comfort.
ZER0 I would go for a more nuanced point: "Does it matter what I lied about? If I lied to my child to keep him from doing dangerous things, is my lie acceptable? Do I deserve an intense punishment for lying if I lied to my dying grandmother to protect her from knowing that her son had died in a tragic accident? Is it the lie that warrants punishment, or should it be the consequences of the lie that determines whether it should be punished?"
Him: Logic kills people. Me: Been basing my life on logic since I was about 10. I'm 32 now. Still alive. 😎 Also him: I have faith that my wife exists even if I don't see her. Me: Yah that's because you've MET HER.....Jackass.......😑
@Zen Dissonance This is why the US has Trump. The people who could have voted against him all thought they were too cool to vote because they don't like the system, while the Calebs of the nation vote because "God" wants them to.
"My short time on earth", "written on my heart", "gives me hope" - Where can I find this script that all evangelists seem to be reading off of? All sounds the same...
Well, if I had only heard vague scraps about darwinism and thought that it was _prescriptive_ rather than _descriptive_ I would be against it too. Trouble with religious types is that they believe that changing your mind equals defeat, so merely _listening_ to other viewpoints is a deadly risk.
Man! Ray Comfort script, much? These snarky Christians just want to vomit in your face. Even when they are being silent, they aren't listening, they are thinking what their next gag reflex will bring up. So obnoxious. He's like a cult member.
Wow. This guy is so confrontational and argumentative, I would not be able to even engage with this dude. I can't even imagine continuing to engage with this guy. The interrupting and ranting is ridiculous. You are so much more empathetic, compassionate, and understanding, than any person I have ever seen. Much respect bro. I would have had a very hard time conversing with someone so volatile and belligerent.
All he did was interrupt, and was incredibly rude. I think he was actually afraid of the answers, to which is only defense was to talk over Anthony. To me he was just another cheap salesman con artists with a mouthful of samples.
"you can't even show me your car exists" It's so sad, how do you get so indoctrinated that you get to this point. He is so close to being extremely dangerous because he won't listen to reason. If he had a mental disorder and heard a voice I wouldn't put it past him to commit atrocities without even questioning it.
Dude you are my hero. You have so much patience. He was really aggressive (honestly I think he is really insecure in his faith. Reminds me of me when I was at the end) but you didn't bite. That thing he said about you trying to attack someone he loves, that's so important. You can tell this is not an intellectual exercise. This is a battle for your soul and his, this is emotional. I had a conversation almost exactly like this before I lost my faith. For me, contradictions didn't work, I could excuse those. What finally changed my paradigm was the concept of free will and the unfairness of eternity in hell without hope of redemption. And those I had to come to on my own, but the earlier debates were instrumental in me even thinking about it.
Love your vids, please keep them coming. As a former Christian of 20ish years, this type of confrontation with someone like you would have immediately got me thinking in different ways at a younger age. Thanks again, JM.
The ExMuslima "former Christian". How can a person be a former Christian? You either are, or are not. A person who thinks they used to be a Christian, but isn't now is either deceived now, or was then. Short answer; "Was a Christian" usually means they were simply religious. I'll explain more if that wasn't sufficient. thanks
Hugh Christian thank you for clarifying. I don't understand how that could be different from a former military officer? He used to be in the army. Now he isn't. Could we then say he is now a civilian and never was an officer? Same thing for an ex cop. Am I missing something?
At long last, here's the link to the contradiction I provided to Street Preacher Troy: th-cam.com/video/oQe3D5FihK4/w-d-xo.html Do you think he'll allow it to impact his confidence in the truth of his claims?
How draining it must be to try to let the incessant bombardment of preachings pass by... Caleb is so frustrated by being unable to preach about his belief and instill fear into the listener, just like he has been deeply scarred by the lady when he was labeled a sinner at age 5. The lady, in turn, was probably similarly scarred in her young life, and was simply passing along the virus. If only the innocent boy, Zack, was aware that he is the one that is being indoctrinated into the same sinner swamp, he would do his best to escape from that dark prison immediately.
lisa monalisa If Dawkins is right that we are the product of mindless unguided natural processes, then he has given us strong reason to doubt the reliability of human cognitive faculties and therefore inevitably to doubt the validity of any belief that they produce - including Dawkins’ own science and his atheism. His biology and his belief in naturalism would therefore appear to be at war with each other in a conflict that has nothing at all to do with God.”
This strongly reminds me of the 'conversation' I had with my father a few weeks back. It added tension to our relationship a bit which hurts, but overall it hurt more that I couldn't actually talk to him, but rather to some talking points he's internalized and refuses to budge on.
my dad raised me a fee thinker e was always an atheist now he's 70plus and has done a 180. I now struggle to have conversations about anything that he used to think!
Most apologists learn "scripts". Its not like a movie script or anything, its just a step by step way to lead people through a conversation. It really throws apologists off if you break them from their script.
@@Necrophadez They're not NPCs they're human. I know the religious right doesn't get high minded concepts like 'citizen' or 'rule of law' or 'consistency' or 'integrity', etc, but @ the end of the day they all deserve some human dignity. Unless ofc you're Moskow Mitch McConnell, fucking traitor.
Travis Rhodus You become an NPC when you’re such a slave to an ideology you talk at someone instead of to them. Running down scripted dialogue trees to gish gallop with feels over reals.
You're a very impressive person Anthony. This method you're using, where you're keeping calm and not directly attacking what they say, you just calmly ask more questions...this is the way to go. I am a person who has lost my cool and become frustrated easily hearing the same stuff over and over again, in conversation w/theists. And to me this is all nonsense. I bring up the problem of evil, & other common arguments, but most of the time the conversation gets heated, and then gets nowhere. I have had success w/people just watching me talk to someone else however. But anyways, your use of the Socratic Method is admirable and is clearly getting further w/the person than a heated argument. I heard you say in a recent interview w/Seth Andrews, "all you have to do is plant the seed." Or something similar. I will use your videos as a template for future conversations. Thanks for doing this.
HARRIO333 here is a sound logical argument by someone way smarter than mr ego God hater, If Dawkins is right that we are the product of mindless unguided natural processes, then he has given us strong reason to doubt the reliability of human cognitive faculties and therefore inevitably to doubt the validity of any belief that they produce - including Dawkins’ own science and his atheism. His biology and his belief in naturalism would therefore appear to be at war with each other in a conflict that has nothing at all to do with God.”
@patrick ledford you're missing the point a bit it seems. You are right, the arguments should stand regardless of the logician. However, there is a high correlation between a bad argument and good logicians giving up on such arguments. Correlation is not Demonstration. However, this is where we need to leave the "fallacy from authority" realm and move into the realm of probabilities to move forward. Otherwise, you would be equally at fault to believe in evolution, which is nothing more than the "best materialistic explanation" made on a collection of otherwise unexplained evidence (fossils, anatomical resemblances ...). I'm sorry, but you would never say that the Theory of Gravity is as solid as the Theory of Evolution, I hear only the opposite, and there are good reasons why. It simply is a weaker scientific theory. Yeah, he totally misspoke. He probably meant that you can only use logic so far. Reminds me of the Barber of Seville from Russell's paradox. That's probably the biggest puzzle to me so far. This is why I don't believe logic can bring you to God, but it should definitely make you wonder and question weak materialistic explanations, as well as should give boundaries to personal revelation. God cannot make square circles. His creation and laws must have consistency.
@@HARRIO333 intelligent enough to know those weren't arguments so much as (what was coherent) they were talking points and diversions to exploration (in earnest) to the spirit of the engsgement I heard utter cowardice of a wannabe fisher of men And as far as my initial comment it was a joke; sure the bloke maybe had arguments they were just distorted or not explored rudimentary thoughts in desperation
I've watched more recent videos, and you mentioned saying this isn't your best work. Very very true. You are so much better at this today, Anthony! You are really an expert at keeping things less contentious now.
If Dawkins is right that we are the product of mindless unguided natural processes, then he has given us strong reason to doubt the reliability of human cognitive faculties and therefore inevitably to doubt the validity of any belief that they produce - including Dawkins’ own science and his atheism. His biology and his belief in naturalism would therefore appear to be at war with each other in a conflict that has nothing at all to do with God.”
@@TeXasDadBod I agree that all humans are fallible. That includes everyone who compiled and wrote the bible, the torah, the koran and all other religious texts. I dont see that as a good reason to discount every conclusion that reason and logic generates. Humans havent discovered all the answers and thats okay. Our current scientific models of the world are sophisticated enough to allow the use of some pretty amazing technology so its not like we are just making stuff up, wholesale.
@@TeXasDadBod Even then there is also a strong reason to believe even unguided natural processes lead very close to the truth (but not quite there) given that truth is mostly what works in a evolutionary sense (truth as in recurring paterns of the world) given the risk of falsehood in any part of the human experience
I was waiting for "Caleb, I can tell a lie with absolutely no contradictions. Easily. Given that, do you think that a lack of contradictions shows something to be true?"
I think it sounds so leading and rhetorical that it verges on snarky and patronizing- Which I kind of wanted to see anyway, given how obnoxious he was. I'd vote for "something *like* it" more.
I thought he mightve brought up something like a really good fictional story which has no contradictions. Just because it had a good author that thought of everything doesn't make it true.
This is pretty much what I came here to say. I realize that this video is over a year old, and that it's often difficult to come up with the perfect response on the spot, but perhaps in future situations like this you can hammer harder the fact that having internal consistency does not necessarily make something true.
@@CorndogMaker yeah maybe after asking if the lack of contradictions is proof or one of his reasons to support his belief ask him politely " do you believe that you can say something that is untrue but lacks any contradictions." Then if and when he says something like how the bible is so complex and explains so much that the lack of contradictions is still indicative of something you can use the example of a complicated fictional story. Of course he'll probably try to claim that because it is written by multiple authors over many years it is still different. So I'm trying to think of a good way of articulating the point that at the time when each person wrote it was within the framework of the works that came before and informed by them and not in a vacuum.
If Dawkins is right that we are the product of mindless unguided natural processes, then he has given us strong reason to doubt the reliability of human cognitive faculties and therefore inevitably to doubt the validity of any belief that they produce - including Dawkins’ own science and his atheism. His biology and his belief in naturalism would therefore appear to be at war with each other in a conflict that has nothing at all to do with God.”
@@Ciph3rzer0 I'm not entirely convinced there was a point. I think it's a very interesting quote that is entirely valuable to secular philosophy. Maybe I'm wrong and there was an intended point about science being bad, but if so it's a really trash argument for that, it's not sound logic, the conclusion doesn't follow. But the conclusion in question is only implied. If we choose to ignore it, we're left with a bit of meta thinking about the trust we have on our own biology and the beliefs we have, regardless of what those beliefs are. If you ask me, that's right in the lane of epistemology too. So I don't just ignore the conclusion about science being stupid. I straight-up don't believe it's present in this quote.
Holy shit. Caleb has displayed that he’s unwilling to listen to what someone else is saying or asking. He’s so much wanting a debate and has his talking points that he won’t move past. It’s really sad.
Fred Nurke - Nah he is willing to find answers and try to justify what he believes.. he said the muslim guy shook him so that shows that he isn't too far gone.. you don't want to give up on these people.. the best atheist communicators we have are also often formerly the most religious..
Just found your channel. Oh, it must be so hard!!!! I can feel my emotions go up when things get fast on these videos. How do you even practice without getting sucked into it? This guys tact was to talk fast, to try and spew out the same 3 points over and over. Evading "Jesus" was probably the best thing. I applaud you on your skills of keeping some control over the conversation. #slowclap
![The Wall Song ร้องข้ามกำแพง | EP.215 | พาเวล นเรศ - พูห์ กฤติน | 17 ต.ค. 67 [1/5]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IUzrjuf60P4/mqdefault.jpg)
The weaker the product, the more the salesman talks.
For real. Reminds me of something I heard. You know the difference between a good car salesmen and a bad car salesmen? The car. This guy is a terrible salesmen selling a terrible product.
Well said, Wayne. Hence the whole set up of "church" and "preaching," i.e., indoctrination.
How do you know a religious person is lying, they open their mouth.
I think Wayne Mills wins this comment thread. Sums it up perfectly.
Another indication of a weak product is that the salesman babbles and bounces all over the place instead of sticking with one point to its conclusion.
This man doesn't want to chat. He just wants to preach. He's insufferable.
it was a total set up come on. the guy happens to walk up to someone else who just happens to be recording stuff. scripted completely
Don't worry it's stupid old people that dies beleiving.
ray ertman that’s ridiculous. You’ve never heard of street preachers and evangelicals?
@@rayertman If it was 'set up' ahead of time, that is only because the camera failed or something and they had to redo something important that was discussed or discovered. This channel wouldn't work if these were faked conversations.
@@rayertman Oh yeah... this guy's a very typical evangelical. But it DOES seem they had already met before the camera started rolling. But this is a legitimate debate.
Holy hell, this guy. He is a machine gun of ignorance. Put a sock in it and let someone else speak for a change.
Anthony's patience skill level: Master.
jon Q if Anthony was a Dungeons and Dragons character he would be a 200th level Patience Master! lol..
letting other people speak and think is not exactly what religion is good at....
I love that, "a machine gun of ignorance"
A "machine gun of ignorance." 😂 Well said.
😭😭😭😭😭
He’s not “discussing” with you, he’s “dictating” to you. As was probably dictated to him.
It’s easy to fool a child.
I think we all know the type.
And that’s why he’s communicating with one during this
I am just looking for your opinion on apples
"apples were given to us by Jesus and it is his love that is going to save my soul from eternal damnation"
Alright but can we get back onto the apples topic
"are you changing the subject from Jesus now? Why are you afraid of Jesus. Why is it you change the subject when you're uncomfortable"
Yes but apples
"Jesus is so good man he creates kind from kind"
Can we discuss apples
"why do you want to change the topic from Jesus so bad? I'm just gonna preach this message over and over again while you plug your ears"
But Caleb, can we get back to the discussion of apples
"Jesus"
He is apeing Ray Comfort.
"There are no contradictions in the Bible but Quran is bunch of mumbojumbo."
Okay.
"okay there is contradiction but even if there is, it's my faith in Jesus. And logic kill people, look at Hitler he believe in evolution so he killed people."
DJEECH...
There are at least 250 contradictions in the Bible.
David Carter is there really that many ?? Or were you being hyperbolic?
The bible is 100% accurate! Especially when thrown from close range. :)
A Muslim told him that.
Harry Potter has no contradictions in it.. does this mean wizards are real now?
Shit, I was thinking in that book too when that idiot preacher was talking about his magic book.
l had a house fire and my bible burned, didn't make the news or pat Robertson's show
if you think the bible explains precipitation or a spherical earth, god does a vague and crappy job of it, also consider the numerous times it talks about the firmament, 4 corners, columns, flat earth etc. you'd have to conclude god didn't know any more about the earth than man did at the time. hmm... cuz he didn't
mark longo *Is there any historical evidence*
What historical evidence does the Bible have? It mentions countries and cities accuratly? Well, Harry Potter mentions London and even the Big Ben, so yes.
*is there millions of people's life transformed from bad to good*
Do you mean people's lives were suddenly better after reading the Bible? I don't think that ever happened, but still I can imagine a kid reading Harry Potter and being happier because of it, so yes.
*is there prophecy full filled is there miracles happening by Harry potter*
I don't know if you read Harry Potter, but he reverses time and shoots fire out of a wooden stick, hell yeah that's a miracle. Prophecies, no, but neither has the Bible.
*the most accurate book ever in the history of mankind*
Well that's just not true. If it was the most accurate book it would have exact dates and times stated for each of its events and/or prophecies.
*or the most sold and read book in the history of man kind*
Well no, but just because a lot of people read it, doesn't mean everything in the book suddenly becomes true.
*has Harry potter book ever been engulfed in flames from a car or house fire and survived with not a single burnt or ashed page*
No, but neither has the Bible.
*the bible states the earth being round before we descovered it to be round*
Not really, Isaiah says the world is a flat cirlce, not a sphere. It also says the sky is stretched out as a tent... Just take that in for a second.
*it states the precipitation cycle before it was discovered*
Yeah wow so they figured out rain falls from the sky and runs into the sea. Amaaaaazing discovery.
*it states Israel becoming a nation thousands of years in advance*
Does it even once specifically say "Israel" or "within a thousand years"?
*it talks about science before science even was founded*
Science was never "founded". Ancient greeks and egyptians were "founding" science waaaay before the Bible was written.
*it 66 books were scattered around the world with with years and years between each one written and they all stay connected in conjunction with each other is just undeniable*
What makes you think they weren't edited afterwards so they would fit together?
The rest of your comment is just some preaching about God.
I'm just going to leave you with this beautiful quote from my Lord and Savior, Dumbledore:
"While we may come from different places and speak in different tongues, our hearts beat as one." - Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
Tim Van Aelst
Very impressive dissection of his previous comments, well done Sir.
“If you just give up your critical faculties, a world of idiotic bliss can be yours,” Christopher Hitchens ✅‼️🤪
Bueno!
Damn I miss Hitch
My response is to future readers here is that I’d have to say Hitchens got it a little wrong because the religious people that I know seem to be in torment and not settled at all and I think it’s because their logical thinking brain is in conflict with the fear driven parts of their brain that can not seem to accept they will NOT have a second life after they die. The religious threat of Hell is a devious and dirty, yet effective tool of manipulation and indoctrination and the accompanying carrots on the stick promise/lie of an afterlife of eternal bliss is appealing to non sceptical thinking people, especially those who were heavily bombarded with the fear mongering tactic when they were children. Things that are real don’t need these dirty tricks to convince.
You may never be able to convince Caleb. But this interaction will certainly help convince thousands of others. Thanks for all your good work, Anthony.
There are more recent talks with him, he's improved a lot
Elephant in the room: This guy is not making a conversation. He just speaks, and when does not speak, he just waits until the other person ends, and then speaks again.
He is defensive, Its pathetic he has likely been indoctrinated The trauma based mind control was invented by the legion
It's because he isnt actually listening to what the guy is saying. You have to listen first to understand and then respond.
@@BrettBloomfield1 To be an effective communicater . 1.shut up 2. Listen.
@@garmind4868 Likely?
@@rentiap definitely
My blood is boiling while listening to this guy jabber a thousand miles an hour throwing out such fallacies and passing them off as absolute fact in such a condescending manner at a guy he views as moronic while knowing absolutely nothing about anything he claims to have an answer for. So many false equivalencies, so much deflecting, so much religious threatening passed off as help. He won't even let Anthony speak, and he's simultaneously bashing him for not proving his claims false. I enjoy talking about these topics with people, but he's not they type that can be talked with.
Hopefully it was worth it for Zack.
he's got his head up his ass for jesus
where is even a shred of prove for any of your idiotic claims? why would you believe such bullshit? standing before god? seeing something after you die? dying for sins? you'll pray for me? will you be sacrificing a goat also? may as well, just to make sure. lake of fire? btw, why doesn't god reveal himself to me? l guess he doesn't give a shit, but you, YOU'RE (notice spelling) special. you have drunk the coolaid my friend.
what's with the "pointless life" bullshit? life is what you make of it. you, on the other hand, are enslaved by a lord and master telling you how to wipe your ass. why? because your infantile mindset can't grow the fuck up. big daddy in the sky pays your bills as long as you kiss his ass.
lt's not god's will and he doesn't need you to tell him what to do. and you're special alright.
I love the line, ‘Do you have a degree? Because that’s gonna affect how you think about this...’
...and not in the way he’s probably thinking it will.
My mouth fell open when I heard him say that.
Those damned liberals and their learning
He said "do you happen to agree" there was a miscommunication there
Cause FREEDOM!!! MURICA!!!
I can feel his fear. Every time he sensed you closing in on his root of belief he talked faster.
Faster and louder
His fight or flight instincts switched as he felt Anthony's hook pierce his cheek... it's sad to see, he needs a hug
he's been sent out on his mission, sheep amongst the wolves. but it's scary how he throws sense out the window.
Good spotting. It is good to see the manifestation of uncertainty in Caleb. Has he left the corporation, or may he have inherited the income stream? The poor dude is probably due for a mandible replacement and to visit the hearing doctor.
I'm impressed with how patient you were with this parrot.
Incredibly accurate description of the way this man presented himself in this conversation
Extremely!
" it's easier to fool a man, than it is to convence him that he has been fooled. "
Says who
I gotta look that up. Sounds like a contradiction to me..lol
Isn't that a Hitler quote?
@@carpentryfirst3048 it's Mark Twain.
@@marionmeyers3431 "if you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people eventually come to believe it".
He was an evil man but this quote still has some powerful truth to it.
OMG he has just memorized a bunch of phrases from Ray Comfort's silly book... shame poor chap
Lol ray comfort I forgot about that!
That's exactly what I noticed too!
I noticed something's not right, he was keep repeating the same thing for different questions...
Caleb: "Where's your car? You can't show me your car. I'm not trying to argue about your car!"
Brings it up, argues about it, denies it's relevance, all in the same breath 🤔
You caught that, too.
Crazy stuff
This is what religion can do to a mind. I applaud your patience Anthony.
ko The sales team has to be bad because the product is fake.
I often imagine a world without religion
Atheism is the worst religion. It contributes nothing.
@@justinlarsen2281 ok boomer
bolshevik RASTA ok Beta 👌🏼
Caleb is one of the worst advocates for Christianity I've ever seen.
+EvilUmpire I like him as a spokesperson for jesus.
This is your brain on Ray Comfort
Yup I’d recognize that opening script anywhere
Ray Comfort... Not even once
Hahahaha. Perfect! yezir
Just say Know
it proves that it work,so would any topics though.
Caleb: "if you won't follow my predetermined conversational path to Jesus, you're being dishonest"
Yikes, broseph
Yeah big yikes to this guy
SHOOK
And he whined about others doing the same thing. He's like bro thays my routine get your own.
What a horribly brain-washed, tortured nut job. How you didn't lose your temper with him I'll never know. Great job avoiding the many rabbit holes.
First, are you suggesting logic is a bad thing? Second, that's really presumptuous to project your feelings about your beliefs onto someone else. Speak for yourself. We all have meaning in our lives. In fact, life has MORE meaning when one knows it is finite. I live more vibrantly, feel more deeply and appreciate every beautiful minute I get. I feel sorry for you if your life is filled with self-imposed chains holding you back from enjoying your life.
i know, i wanted to spit on him through my computer screen.
No kidding. Magnabosco is a fucking saint for keeping his cool
I see a candidate for Director of Science Education in the Trump Administration, hmmmm?
Have you thought about simply stating flat-out "I don't care what you believe. Stop telling me what you believe. Please tell me why you believe it."
This is my interpreatation of Heb 11:1 ... It is not possible so STOP bothering to prove these feelings and stuff nobody can see!
Surely this chaps state of mind could or should be defined by a certain psychological disorder etc. His mind set is typical of the type. This harmful condition needs to be measured and scientifically analysed. ‘What is the accurate or exact scientific definition for this mental phenomena?’ A genuine term should be created for the dictionary so one can easily describe it. The term needs to reflect the flawed process of how a brian comes to this state.
@@nogodsnomasters.5935, the condition is called delusion.
AntiCitizenX here some LOGIC If Dawkins is right that we are the product of mindless unguided natural processes, then he has given us strong reason to doubt the reliability of human cognitive faculties and therefore inevitably to doubt the validity of any belief that they produce - including Dawkins’ own science and his atheism. His biology and his belief in naturalism would therefore appear to be at war with each other in a conflict that has nothing at all to do with God.”
Our Caleb keeps changing the subject, every time he gets cornered. He blames his conversant for changing the topic, whereas Anthony sticks to the questioning. Then he starts to manufacture outrage to blame Anthony for his persistence. He is asked to provide proof of his positive, then he asks Anthony to prove his negative. Tsk tsk.
Q. I know/understand ('m convinced) that you believe this. But how do you know it's true?
A. [blather, feeling, personal experience, anecdote, the Bible is true because God said it's true, and then a verse from the Bible citing that, circular reasoning, etc.]
Rinse and repeat.
And each time, our Caleb starts yelling louder, getting more and more threatened and scared and angry.
Belief is all about emotion.
You seem like a person who understands this method well. I'm looking for someone to converse with me about some Taoist beliefs I hold still. (I'm an atheist, but taoism has always seemed to me more like philosophy than the classic definition of religion). So I'm trying to find out if some eastern beliefs that don't have gods like taoism or buddhism, have similar issues. If you want to, I would love to try and either refute/dismantle the taoism I hold as true or continue it.
When people are relying only on circular belief feedback, if you ask them to tell them why they believe, all they can usually do is repeat statements of what they believe. You say that you understand WHAT they believe, but are trying to understand WHY they believe it. And they go back to statements of what they believe.
@@emeraldkat2167 I see you haven't had a response in 9 months, and your topic of choice fascinates me. (Notice my profile pic!) I agree with you that the Buddhist religions tend to be much more philosophical in nature than the western ones that seem to have shaped the dictionaries. I have also read that the Buddha included in his teaching that if something he said sounded wrong or useless, to throw it out. I really appreciate the humble humanity in that - it's so much better than the threat of hell!
As a philosophy graduate, I can tell you that my general view of any good philosopher is that they make their own definitions, distinctions, and logical syllogisms that can be useful in answering a question or giving perspective for certain situations, but they skip over some other questions or situations that their personal system just can't address well. To me, Buddha is no exception. He's just a decent philosopher with a religious background who makes some good points worth pondering, but it would be unhealthy to apply his views to all questions and circumstances.
I am not especially familiar with the specifics of Taoism, but does my general rule help you out? What aspects of Taoism or Buddhism would you like to unpack together?
@@pondboy3682 I really appreciate it! Taoism in my perspective and practice is a fairly anarchist view of the world. It starts out fairly simply with the idea that to know one thing you must also have some understanding/experience of its opposite (ie to know what happiness is, you must have been unhappy at some point; for cold, you must know warmth). It also states a variation on the circle of life and that because of this, it differentiates from something like humanism by saying that all life is equal. There is no action a life form could take that would be unnatural.
The next part has to do with the idea that all things that need to get done will get done, out of the natural necessity for it occur. For instance, you do not have to force someone to clean their toilet, because eventually natural consequences will force it to be done. And on top of this, people know that if you clean it regularly (by experience or by someone telling them), it will eventually be unusable.
I think that may be a place where some problems could arise. The only other one is some of the more modern "spiritual" stuff (ie feng shui comes from this, so does the idea of chi) that's been tacked onto taoism, but I dont ascribe to most of that. Chi is mentioned a couple times in the Tao Te Ching, but it is explained as the energy that is passed from one living thing to another when consumed - this I have taken very literally, as in equating it to caloric energy. It is also gives me an ethical standard as because my life would end without consuming other life, I must only take life to continue my own (ie defend myself or not starve to death) and it is "owed" in turn to continue other life after my death. In a Taoist view, being buried in a coffin or kept out of the life cycle by some other means after death would be an incredible harm to all life and a complete disrespect for the lives that I needed to survive. All plants and animals are essentially equal, and while I may emotionally be attached to specific animals/plants, none has more value to the planet. I see something like cat declawing or dog debarking the same as doing it to a human.
Gosh, that was a lot. I just reread it and I hope it wasn't too much. If you'd prefer to focus on a certain part, that's fine. I'm not totally sure if there is actually anything that would be illogical or harmful to hold onto or not. My goal is to really only keep things that will not cause harm (or at min the least harm possible).
@@emeraldkat2167 that was beautiful, and not all that long for deep discussion! Overall, it sounds to me like you're a well-developed thinker, and you've already identified the principle I have the biggest problem with, so it probably won't surprise you. After that, I suspect we will have the most discussion about the no harm principle.
Regarding understanding opposites, I'd keep it, 100%! It's not always going to work to find _one_ opposite, but this principle is likely what has sharpened your critical thinking skills, and I wish more people would practice this!
As for "what needs to happen, happens", it's very passive. I understand that it's a calming, no-drama perspective that can be important psychologically in a high-stress situation, but mostly it sounds harmful in my view - uncaring, excusing laziness, adding no value, and allowing atrocities, just so you feel calmer. As you guessed, this is my biggest problem with Taoism. In the West, we focus on a strong opposite of this. _ The greatest evils do not come from the action of bad people, but from the inaction of good people! _ Of course, this view has its problems, too.
Now for the no harm, or as little harm as possible. I saw a video on the Dali Lama that started with a funeral where they fed the corpse to vultures. It shocked me, but inspired me, too. I now want to be cremated, and returned to the earth - not preserved in a coffin. I do appreciate the circle of life, and the value of all living beings.
That said, I do not share your view that all living beings are equal. Worms, collectively, are very beneficial to life on the planet, and are extremely important, but an individual worm is just a brainless, breeding intestine! I would kill a thousand worms to save a tree, and I don't think that's humanism talking! The individual tree objectively adds more value to life than a thousand worms do. I would also kill a million bacteria to save a worm...if it wasn't too much work!
Humanism itself, however, is only natural, and as far as I've seen, inescapable! Lions are lionists, ants are antists, and humans are humanists; it's as natural as the instinct to survive! Even the fructarians who despise humanism, and allow their bodies to slowly waste away instead of killing anything, do so because they deem themselves morally superior to other animals. That sounds like a humanist principle to me!
I say, eat for optimal health, not mere survival! Don't feel sorry for existing, but celebrate your life! Use the time you have to add beauty and value to the world!
"Evolution is a cat giving birth to a dog."
My brain is screaming in pain right now!
He's scared of having his beliefs challenged, so he's overtaking to continue to convince himself.
It is amazing the patience you had, Anthony! Unfortunately, I know Caleb's type because I used to be just like him. He mentions he lived in Pensacola which is a mecca for King James Onlyists at Pensacola Bible Institute (the late Peter Ruckman's Bible "college") and Pensacola Christian College. I went to PCC and used Caleb's style of evangelism to try to convince people that they needed to believe in Jesus. It took me over a decade of being exposed to the evidence for evolution and then reevaluating the arguments for God's existence before I became an atheist and an evidentialist. Like most creationists, he has a caricature of evolutionary theory in mind and he rests on the circular logic of "the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true."
It's uncanny how much I can relate to this! Thanks for posting this vid!
Wow. Thanks for the insight. I know Caleb is aware of this video and hope he emails me back one day.
.
I don't think he will email you back, he has been shown to be intellectually dishonest.
But if he does it will be for preaching.
don't bother
mark longo Did you know that there is no evidence for the Exodus ever happening? 40 years in the desert and there are no graves or pottery or anything.
This is so incredibly painful to watch. My brain hurts!
I agree. I had to pause the video numerous times so I wouldn't throw my cellphone through the wall.
dancinghobbit87 yup. There were so many times where Zack should have pointed out the straw manning but didnt
It's fascinating how he can't stop talking when he gets cornered with reason and logic.
He says "I'll be honest" and the last thing he is is honest.
Fascinating!
An honest man doesn't have to make a claim of honesty, but a dishonest man will repeatedly claim to be honest.
That's a trait of a sociopath, watch any of coffeezilla's interviews with fake gurus, they always burst crap out of their mouth when their beliefs are challenged
But don't forget we can't use logic because that's what led Hitler to do what he did. But meanwhile all the harm caused by religion is swept under the rug.
"If you're not willing to let me preach, I'm gonna have to move on until I can find someone who will"
He sounds like he just became a Christian last week.
Possible
This is very possible. High rpm, low i.q.
But he has always been an a$$
Seems like part of the spiel is to keep himself convinced
He's unbearable, how did you stand for this whole obnoxious interview? Every answer is...because Jesus.
If Dawkins is right that we are the product of mindless unguided natural processes, then he has given us strong reason to doubt the reliability of human cognitive faculties and therefore inevitably to doubt the validity of any belief that they produce - including Dawkins’ own science and his atheism. His biology and his belief in naturalism would therefore appear to be at war with each other in a conflict that has nothing at all to do with God.”
@@TeXasDadBod That's why we have peer review and evidence. Human faculties are not perfect. That's why we have religion.
It will get old fast. There's something very wrong with these people (my Dad was an early Christian Evangelical from the 70s) The only way to help them is to make them self-conscious of their absurd beliefs. And I'm an Agnostic Theist (I believe in 'higher powers' but it's not some old dude in the sky). I would like to see these people TRULY FIND GOD (and the presence of 'Christ' within themselves). I would love for these people to ACT LIKE JESUS!!!
@@kubush peer review is terribly flawed. Look at what James lindsay did. Flawed brains reviewing flawed works still equals flawed results.
@@TheSimonScowl I'd be interested to hear what you mean by "there's something very wrong with these people" The issue with acting like Jesus and truly finding god is defining which of the 5000 christian denominations' definitions of Jesus and god you mean.
You have the patience of a literal saint. I would not have been able to stay in the conversation that long. I honor your dedication to your practice & art. It is impressive beyond my ability to describe. You are the calmest person, but also solid in your intent.
they walk away from me after about thirty seconds as soon as they realise I'm not brainwashable. I have had these conversations with my local preachers and minister as soon as u ask any question they run a mile. men three and four times my age just cut n run tail between legs. they are conmen and when they see that u know it they won't waste time talking to u. its utterly pathetic
@@odoggow8157 I blow a gasket at the lack of critical thinking and I just can't. I don't get angry, I just see it as not a good use of my time. I love that others are willing and able to do what is just not in my wheelhouse.
Caleb is not interested in a rational discussion. He just wants to assert his irrational belief with bad arguments. I think most people who are believers just fail at critical thinking. They're not stupid, just..... either brainwashed, or use faulty reasoning.
03chrisv bad arguments? An argument isn't saying that you believe something BECAUSE JESUS.
@@gooba4079 Well, it is an argument. It's a faulty argument but it is an argument. You can prove anything from false premises.
@@BooBaddyBig
Well said..
Now how to determine whether the premise is true or false?
Yea, the same way you have been brainwashed to choose English as the language to express yourself. Following your logic, you are not stupid for doing so, but you are just either brainwashed or used faulty reasoning resulting in you choosing to use English.
So much for avoiding faulty reasoning.
@@BlacksmithTWD You comparing the use of English to his belief is a false equivalence.
Also, I think it might have been good to define "contradiction." Any account that contains no contradictions is simply "consistent." So a good question would be "does the mere internal consistency of a document make it objectively true?"
AntiCitizenX Ah, good point.
Love your videos, awesome that you follow Anthony aswell.
He did ask for a definition of "contradiction", the problem with the definition was it contained the word "contradiction" so Anthony asked for an example of a contradiction and then gave an example.
But your question is also equally valid, instead of or in addition to the questions on the definition of "contradiction"
That's a good point. But I don't think this guy is very keen on answering questions. More so preaching at people and accusing them of steering away from Jesus if anything gets "logical."
Later in the vid Caleb actually said something to his friend (brother?) like: “See Zack, he says he wouldn’t believe something even though he accepts it has no contradictions. So even though it was proven TRUE he doesn’t believe.” I have no doubt the words he used are different but he made it clear he thinks [no contradictions] = [true]. It’s a pity Anthony did not catch that!
35 minute conversation and the creationist never heard or answered the first question. This is a shining monument to the intellectual dishonesty of the theist position.
Nicholas Flamel If Dawkins is right that we are the product of mindless unguided natural processes, then he has given us strong reason to doubt the reliability of human cognitive faculties and therefore inevitably to doubt the validity of any belief that they produce - including Dawkins’ own science and his atheism. His biology and his belief in naturalism would therefore appear to be at war with each other in a conflict that has nothing at all to do with God.”
"if you take logic to it's end, it causes issues"
Ya, RIGHT! The ISSUE is you are dead WRONG and refuse to address the ISSUE!
I’m blown away at the fact I used to think EXACTLY like this guy. It’s not possible to explain with words the sensation of liberation I felt when I realized that I no longer believed in God.
Ditto!!
I love when half way through these encounters the people that you're engaging with finally piece together that you're not a believer resulting in a huge shift in tone and body language on their part. I can see the "Oh shit" moment on their face. It amuses me every time.
They all start out calm and confident but then, "Warning! Warning! Danger Will Robinson!"
Wow the new YEC-Model T-1000 is expertly programmed, perfectly engineered to frustrate its victims into committing suicide. No guns or weapons required.
The minute he opened his mouth, I thought! Banana man. He is schooled by Ray Comfort
“I’m not arguing...” and continues to argue. Gishgallops his way through and does not address the questions... this is so frustrating, I admire you Magnabosco!
Gross comment.
@@blocksbrains4911 Am I wrong?
I feel sorry for Zack.
Jordan McLachlan Me too. But perhaps some of that talk landed with him.
Y'know what, that's a much more positive way of looking at it!
All I could think was that he'll be spouting the same word salad as Caleb in a year or so.
I did (unconvincingly) for a while..
Great job on these, dude..
Jordan McLachlan I feel more sorry for his brother
@@magnabosco210 I think he already knows...
me too
Wow, this guy has no idea how logic works..
Sounds like he is scare of logic, because it "kills people"
It has taken me a year to listen to this. I had to stop multiple times and take breaks.
Your patience is extraordinary
20:03 “if I showed you a picture of Jesus you probably wouldn’t believe it.”
Wait, they had cameras back then?
Brendan Whelan and would that make him a god? A man on a picture?
@@michelvandervelden654 dang, sounds like something a great philosopher would say.
Pretty he sure said Jesus said the bible was true, and most was written after his death.
yep
*photograph. A picture can be a painting, but a photo is a picture specifically taken with a camera.
You're a better man than I for having the patience to deal with this creature. I was astounded when he said in the video that he doesn't believe evolution because he's never seen a dinosaur give birth to a chicken. That's even more astoundingly stupid than the argument that a monkey should give birth to a human. It's tragic what our species is producing these days.
Birds are dinosaurs, chickens are birds. Chickens give birth to dinosaurs, daily!
conversation should've just end when he said "logic kills people."
Voey Designs I actually talk a little bit more about why I continued the conversation here with Caleb in my second conversation with Danny 'Shadows of Doubt'. If time, please check that one out next.
Braamok Yeah. I know that. But I'm doing something different here. Please watch one of my talks in my 'Presentations' Playlist if you have the time.
He's trying to avoid doing that because as soon as you throw facts at a persons firmly held beliefs it puts them on the defensive thus shutting off any hope of getting through to them. I used to hold this tactic but now I simply end discussions if they begin to turn into arguments, it shouldn't be about winning and losing it should be about opening minds.
I think he means when you're searching so much for knowledge and truth it can send you over the edge like Hitler and the other guys he mentioned. Logic doesn't kill people by just that saying alone
Does he know that hitler was a christian?
It's in his preface of Mein Kampf.
Honestly Anthony, your patience should get a Nobel Prize
Even though you are correct regarding Hitler being a Christian, they know it too. The point of these types of statements is to antagonize and start a heated argument or debate. That way they can argue from their pre constructed script. Its the match that lights the fire and if you don't allow it, as Anthony did, its game over for them. If you notice at the end, Caleb is extremely frustrated and literally begging for an argument. Kudos to Anthony! Cheers
Not only a christian, but a creationist.
Hitler was not a Christian, how can so many people like such an obviously wrong comment? All this talk about conversation and questioning and logic but the people who watch these videos aren't very smart at all.
Even if evolution caused Stalin to kill people ( although I don't see the connection myself ) how many wars and deaths have been caused my religion through the ages? His very own God kills women and children. It's such a non-sensical argument he's trying to make
This comment is the same thing he does with the Bible. Look in to Hitler replacing bishops that didn't agree with him. He replaced them for his "brand" of christianity. But that isn't what makes a christian. Be aware that not everyone that says they are Christians, are actually Christians. I don't think I could blame all atheists for the actions of one atheist. Nor do I believe that all Christians are actually following what Christ said hence they are not actually Christians no matter what they tell you.
The Bible gave him hope from the damnation that the Bible gives. Brilliant.
Ha it's like the mob or gang or like viking raiders "protecting" you from a rival gang which is really just that same gang 😅
So what happened after this? Did you continue talking to him by email? Man, you have some serious patience. I could not have resisted. I have a lot to learn from you.
Mistertroy2000 We did email each other back-and-forth a few times and then it fizzled out. However, we met in December 2018 for a follow up interview which lasted for about an hour. I haven’t had the time or interest to edit it, but I might try to get to that before the end of this year. So maybe keep an eye out for that. Thanks for watching.
@@magnabosco210 You said you don't have the interest to edit it, is that because he didn't budge in his stance?
I'm too watching your vids because I want to lean how to debate and listen better. I'm even tempted to try street epistemology, but when I read one of your check lists in one of your descriptions it put me off, there were so many things you said/did in one conversation! 👍🏻
Edit: I wrote this comment half way through the vid. I know now why you don't have much interest in editing the latest vid now.
This is one of the most indoctrinated people I've seen this year. 😑
@@magnabosco210 that's outstanding. I did notice at one time he moved the goalposts. First, he agreed that contradictions were "incompatibilities within" the document. Then he used "if you were shown it had no contradictions" he equated that with it being "true" aka, compatible with reality. And made you appear to be a dishonest broker
Faizan A Do you really think that would have satisifed him? I didn’t.
Anthony, have you ever considered starting the discussion with a belief they were certain wasn’t true? I think this would set up some principles that they would not want to contradict once the discussion turned to their beliefs. The reason I became an atheist is because I looked at all the beliefs of others and had a laugh at how ridiculous they were before thinking about whether I was not applying the same principles to my own beliefs. If they can’t think of a religion they know to be false, then that raises the question of how they were able to dismiss them over their own belief.
He has no critical thinking skills. He can't discern facts from fiction.
religion destroys everything in the world and makes people weak as fuck , crying every chance they get to some higher power to help them ,
instead of , idk , stand on their own 2 feet and DEAL with the situation ? like a human being ?
God will help you one day, first you need to see evil for yourself and what this world is all about. Then you will finally use your critical thinking
Religious people are noted as followers more than thinkers.
@# At least they would question.
ThermaL1102 no science does that lol
Anthony: It seems Caleb might be beyond reason, but I'm curious about how you might approach the exchange differently now that you've had so much more SE conversational experience today. Would there be any way you would frame any of your questions differently, or any other way you would like to have tried to steer the conversation?
You know, if this guy is the “spiritual mentor” for the young man (Zach) on the right, I feel like there’s a better than average chance that he ends up as an atheist.
9:00 "You've said so much there and it's so tempting to discuss that with you." Holy crap, what an excellent way to not get side tracked in a street epistemology framework.
Lol it's a pretty good tactic. "You don''t want to talk about jeebus!" No, no you keep changing the subject.
Caleb is not interested in conversation, and that's what makes listening to him so difficult. He'd rather steamroll his personal beliefs than hear someone counter them. He even goes so far as to accuse Anthony of insulting someone he has a personal relationship with (i.e. Jesus) then goes on to say that if you DON'T believe in his god you're a fool. So let's recap... By asking honest questions about FAITH, we're somehow insulting his friend Jesus, yet Caleb can immediately turn around and call us fools? Somewhere along the line his common decency and social skills went right out the window. Way to keep your cool, Anthony. Cheers!
Michael Steven Martin conversation is not rebuttal its argument can’t even get that right
' I can't believe in evolution cuz 'Hitler ''....that bit made me laugh....poor bugger..it's so cruel what religion does to peoples minds..
Apparently he's never heard of the crusades
I think this is just the effect of stupid on the brain.
I don't think this dude has a clue of how absurd he sounds. I guess when jesus is written on your heart it no longer matters what crap flies out of your mouth.
I'm so sad for that poor kid having his mind polluted with Caleb's delusions.
@@civexian not even his son...
He's not interested in listening, he's just there to preach
We can all sleep soundly knowing he isn't convincing anyone that isn't already convinced.
Caleb is so locked in with his belief and he is operating with fear. It is clear that Caleb views Anthony's calm method as a potential open door for rethinking his position. But because he (Caleb) is in constant fear, he gets increasingly afraid he might go to hell. It is even possible that Caleb does not necessarily want to go to heaven, just simply that he is afraid of going to hell.
At first, I was annoyed that Caleb was not answering the questions, but once I realized he is operating in fear, it was more understandable. I have family members who I have issues with around their hurtful dogmas. I am going to buy the book on SE and begin to practice it. It is clear that we cannot reach staunch believers without some method that makes them feel safe.
It is SE for me. I definitely need a new approach. Thank you Anthony.
"You keep changing the subject!" ~guy who keeps changing the subject
I thought I was the only one that saw that
This guy is, and I would normally not like saying this because it is patronising, but this guy is a indoctrinated moron.
I lost all respect for Caleb when he tried to stereotype you to his friend Zack. Caleb wasn't the least bit interested in an honest dialogue. He just wanted to preach the gospel according to Ray Comfort.
It was almost like "Hey Caleb! This guy over here is an idiot bc I don't understand what he is saying"
I heard his "Ray Comfort moment". "You tell a lie, what does that make you?" etc. My reply would be "It makes me human".
ZER0 I would go for a more nuanced point: "Does it matter what I lied about? If I lied to my child to keep him from doing dangerous things, is my lie acceptable? Do I deserve an intense punishment for lying if I lied to my dying grandmother to protect her from knowing that her son had died in a tragic accident? Is it the lie that warrants punishment, or should it be the consequences of the lie that determines whether it should be punished?"
My question would have been "is it ok to lie to bring someone to God?" Either way he answers, he's trapped.
@@gabrielstroup I don't understand why Christians have such a big problem with lies, because they obviously don't value truth.
Him: Logic kills people.
Me: Been basing my life on logic since I was about 10. I'm 32 now. Still alive. 😎
Also him: I have faith that my wife exists even if I don't see her.
Me: Yah that's because you've MET HER.....Jackass.......😑
Ryan Fuxa Caleb would tell you that it kills you spiritually
Me too. I was inspired by Spock on Star Trek. Using logic has never let me down.
Friendly reminder:
Caleb... votes
!
That's a good reason to try to get through the brainwashing .. might not be possible
@Zen Dissonance whats the alternative to voting?
@@zimmothyd3188 Revolution.
@Zen Dissonance This is why the US has Trump. The people who could have voted against him all thought they were too cool to vote because they don't like the system, while the Calebs of the nation vote because "God" wants them to.
"My short time on earth", "written on my heart", "gives me hope" - Where can I find this script that all evangelists seem to be reading off of? All sounds the same...
Kirk Camron in the Left Behind movies. He used the exact same lines when converting people. They are ripping off the script
Probably up their ass along with their head
He has a class
All NPC’s have a dialogue tree.
@@Necrophadez Underrated comment. Its unfortunate parallel is that most PCs don't have any dialogue at all!
"I will not believe evolution because of a man like Hitler." -- hmmmmm
Well, if I had only heard vague scraps about darwinism and thought that it was _prescriptive_ rather than _descriptive_ I would be against it too.
Trouble with religious types is that they believe that changing your mind equals defeat, so merely _listening_ to other viewpoints is a deadly risk.
Bold authoritarian to bring up, considering he claimed to be a Catholic.
VoiceOfIrrationality what was the other one? Cats giving birth to parrots? Or something. Ha ha
Wow, that's a keeper.
Hitler, the well known Catholic? Lol
Man! Ray Comfort script, much? These snarky Christians just want to vomit in your face. Even when they are being silent, they aren't listening, they are thinking what their next gag reflex will bring up. So obnoxious. He's like a cult member.
Wow. This guy is so confrontational and argumentative, I would not be able to even engage with this dude. I can't even imagine continuing to engage with this guy. The interrupting and ranting is ridiculous. You are so much more empathetic, compassionate, and understanding, than any person I have ever seen. Much respect bro. I would have had a very hard time conversing with someone so volatile and belligerent.
All he did was interrupt, and was incredibly rude. I think he was actually afraid of the answers, to which is only defense was to talk over Anthony. To me he was just another cheap salesman con artists with a mouthful of samples.
Exactly
"you can't even show me your car exists"
It's so sad, how do you get so indoctrinated that you get to this point. He is so close to being extremely dangerous because he won't listen to reason. If he had a mental disorder and heard a voice I wouldn't put it past him to commit atrocities without even questioning it.
Dude you are my hero. You have so much patience. He was really aggressive (honestly I think he is really insecure in his faith. Reminds me of me when I was at the end) but you didn't bite.
That thing he said about you trying to attack someone he loves, that's so important. You can tell this is not an intellectual exercise. This is a battle for your soul and his, this is emotional.
I had a conversation almost exactly like this before I lost my faith. For me, contradictions didn't work, I could excuse those. What finally changed my paradigm was the concept of free will and the unfairness of eternity in hell without hope of redemption. And those I had to come to on my own, but the earlier debates were instrumental in me even thinking about it.
Thanks for your insights and personal story.
Love your vids, please keep them coming. As a former Christian of 20ish years, this type of confrontation with someone like you would have immediately got me thinking in different ways at a younger age. Thanks again, JM.
Thank you. I find your observation very interesting. Lets hope it makes an impact on Caleb and/or young Zack.
+John-Michael Whisenhunt Because you were never really a Christian. Just another religious nut.
+Hugh Christian I'm curious. What makes you think that?
The ExMuslima
"former Christian". How can a person be a former Christian? You either are, or are not. A person who thinks they used to be a Christian, but isn't now is either deceived now, or was then. Short answer; "Was a Christian" usually means they were simply religious. I'll explain more if that wasn't sufficient. thanks
Hugh Christian thank you for clarifying. I don't understand how that could be different from a former military officer? He used to be in the army. Now he isn't. Could we then say he is now a civilian and never was an officer? Same thing for an ex cop. Am I missing something?
At long last, here's the link to the contradiction I provided to Street Preacher Troy:
th-cam.com/video/oQe3D5FihK4/w-d-xo.html
Do you think he'll allow it to impact his confidence in the truth of his claims?
How draining it must be to try to let the incessant bombardment of preachings pass by...
Caleb is so frustrated by being unable to preach about his belief and instill fear into the listener, just like he has been deeply scarred by the lady when he was labeled a sinner at age 5. The lady, in turn, was probably similarly scarred in her young life, and was simply passing along the virus. If only the innocent boy, Zack, was aware that he is the one that is being indoctrinated into the same sinner swamp, he would do his best to escape from that dark prison immediately.
lisa monalisa If Dawkins is right that we are the product of mindless unguided natural processes, then he has given us strong reason to doubt the reliability of human cognitive faculties and therefore inevitably to doubt the validity of any belief that they produce - including Dawkins’ own science and his atheism. His biology and his belief in naturalism would therefore appear to be at war with each other in a conflict that has nothing at all to do with God.”
Poor Caleb. At 5 years old, he had the fear of hell instilled in him
And the rest, as they say, is history…
that sums up the whole "conversation".
Listening to Caleb is like pulling teeth.
The last tooth I had pulled only took a few minutes. I was in and out of there. Way less painful than this conversation.
This strongly reminds me of the 'conversation' I had with my father a few weeks back. It added tension to our relationship a bit which hurts, but overall it hurt more that I couldn't actually talk to him, but rather to some talking points he's internalized and refuses to budge on.
my dad raised me a fee thinker e was always an atheist now he's 70plus and has done a 180. I now struggle to have conversations about anything that he used to think!
@@odoggow8157old age and fear get em all
He's not a good apologist. Sounds like he's following an algorithm lol
They all do 😅
Most apologists learn "scripts". Its not like a movie script or anything, its just a step by step way to lead people through a conversation.
It really throws apologists off if you break them from their script.
NPC’s have dialogue trees.
@@Necrophadez They're not NPCs they're human. I know the religious right doesn't get high minded concepts like 'citizen' or 'rule of law' or 'consistency' or 'integrity', etc, but @ the end of the day they all deserve some human dignity. Unless ofc you're Moskow Mitch McConnell, fucking traitor.
Travis Rhodus You become an NPC when you’re such a slave to an ideology you talk at someone instead of to them. Running down scripted dialogue trees to gish gallop with feels over reals.
You're a very impressive person Anthony. This method you're using, where you're keeping calm and not directly attacking what they say, you just calmly ask more questions...this is the way to go. I am a person who has lost my cool and become frustrated easily hearing the same stuff over and over again, in conversation w/theists. And to me this is all nonsense. I bring up the problem of evil, & other common arguments, but most of the time the conversation gets heated, and then gets nowhere. I have had success w/people just watching me talk to someone else however. But anyways, your use of the Socratic Method is admirable and is clearly getting further w/the person than a heated argument. I heard you say in a recent interview w/Seth Andrews, "all you have to do is plant the seed." Or something similar. I will use your videos as a template for future conversations. Thanks for doing this.
When People keep saying: “we could talk all day long,” it’s because they don’t want to talk.
I'm always suspicious of people who can answer without pausing to think.
Long story short, this guy has no sound argument.
HARRIO333 here is a sound logical argument by someone way smarter than mr ego God hater, If Dawkins is right that we are the product of mindless unguided natural processes, then he has given us strong reason to doubt the reliability of human cognitive faculties and therefore inevitably to doubt the validity of any belief that they produce - including Dawkins’ own science and his atheism. His biology and his belief in naturalism would therefore appear to be at war with each other in a conflict that has nothing at all to do with God.”
@patrick ledford you're missing the point a bit it seems.
You are right, the arguments should stand regardless of the logician. However, there is a high correlation between a bad argument and good logicians giving up on such arguments. Correlation is not Demonstration. However, this is where we need to leave the "fallacy from authority" realm and move into the realm of probabilities to move forward. Otherwise, you would be equally at fault to believe in evolution, which is nothing more than the "best materialistic explanation" made on a collection of otherwise unexplained evidence (fossils, anatomical resemblances ...). I'm sorry, but you would never say that the Theory of Gravity is as solid as the Theory of Evolution, I hear only the opposite, and there are good reasons why. It simply is a weaker scientific theory.
Yeah, he totally misspoke. He probably meant that you can only use logic so far. Reminds me of the Barber of Seville from Russell's paradox. That's probably the biggest puzzle to me so far. This is why I don't believe logic can bring you to God, but it should definitely make you wonder and question weak materialistic explanations, as well as should give boundaries to personal revelation. God cannot make square circles. His creation and laws must have consistency.
You heard an argument in there? Lmao
@@TPOANME Are you NOT intelligent?
@@HARRIO333 intelligent enough to know those weren't arguments so much as (what was coherent) they were talking points and diversions to exploration (in earnest) to the spirit of the engsgement
I heard utter cowardice of a wannabe fisher of men
And as far as my initial comment it was a joke; sure the bloke maybe had arguments they were just distorted or not explored rudimentary thoughts in desperation
Jesus was filling your heart with the need to get the hell away from that guy
Ambiguous pronoun reference
There is a point of no return.
This man has passed that point.
I still have hope for Caleb.
Have you been in touch with him since this video?
I have to agree with you on that, and I'm only 4 minutes into the video. I'm pretty certain he won't be an Atheist by the end, lol.
Fully addicted to the opiate of the masses
I've watched more recent videos, and you mentioned saying this isn't your best work. Very very true. You are so much better at this today, Anthony! You are really an expert at keeping things less contentious now.
Stop interrupting him while he is going through his script.
LoL.
Ikr?
interesting how when he starts to feel less secure in the debate, he turns to zack to reinforce his position as the teacher
If Dawkins is right that we are the product of mindless unguided natural processes, then he has given us strong reason to doubt the reliability of human cognitive faculties and therefore inevitably to doubt the validity of any belief that they produce - including Dawkins’ own science and his atheism. His biology and his belief in naturalism would therefore appear to be at war with each other in a conflict that has nothing at all to do with God.”
@@TeXasDadBod I agree that all humans are fallible. That includes everyone who compiled and wrote the bible, the torah, the koran and all other religious texts.
I dont see that as a good reason to discount every conclusion that reason and logic generates. Humans havent discovered all the answers and thats okay. Our current scientific models of the world are sophisticated enough to allow the use of some pretty amazing technology so its not like we are just making stuff up, wholesale.
@@TeXasDadBod If Dawkins is right, then he's also wrong... Yep, no problem with that deduction.
@@TeXasDadBod Even then there is also a strong reason to believe even unguided natural processes lead very close to the truth (but not quite there) given that truth is mostly what works in a evolutionary sense (truth as in recurring paterns of the world) given the risk of falsehood in any part of the human experience
I was waiting for
"Caleb, I can tell a lie with absolutely no contradictions. Easily. Given that, do you think that a lack of contradictions shows something to be true?"
CorndogMaker I like that example. May I use it or something like it?
I think it sounds so leading and rhetorical that it verges on snarky and patronizing- Which I kind of wanted to see anyway, given how obnoxious he was. I'd vote for "something *like* it" more.
I thought he mightve brought up something like a really good fictional story which has no contradictions. Just because it had a good author that thought of everything doesn't make it true.
This is pretty much what I came here to say. I realize that this video is over a year old, and that it's often difficult to come up with the perfect response on the spot, but perhaps in future situations like this you can hammer harder the fact that having internal consistency does not necessarily make something true.
@@CorndogMaker yeah maybe after asking if the lack of contradictions is proof or one of his reasons to support his belief ask him politely " do you believe that you can say something that is untrue but lacks any contradictions." Then if and when he says something like how the bible is so complex and explains so much that the lack of contradictions is still indicative of something you can use the example of a complicated fictional story. Of course he'll probably try to claim that because it is written by multiple authors over many years it is still different. So I'm trying to think of a good way of articulating the point that at the time when each person wrote it was within the framework of the works that came before and informed by them and not in a vacuum.
Caleb, "you see Zach, he doesn't want to talk about Jesus..."
Zach, "yes he does" [while Caleb continues to preach at Zach without listening one bit]
25:23 Does Zac say, “Yes, he does.”
???
Refuting the claim of the disingenuous motor mouth of god.
Zach. RUN AWAY!!!
He’s a true drone. He’s so locked on rails that he’s simply waiting to speak and not actually listening to your point.
Amazing patience.
I recognise so many of his arguments. He's like a distillation of tent evangelist parables.
If Dawkins is right that we are the product of mindless unguided natural processes, then he has given us strong reason to doubt the reliability of human cognitive faculties and therefore inevitably to doubt the validity of any belief that they produce - including Dawkins’ own science and his atheism. His biology and his belief in naturalism would therefore appear to be at war with each other in a conflict that has nothing at all to do with God.”
@@TeXasDadBod that was bullshit
@@TeXasDadBod nice copypasta. Of course, you literally make no point.
@@Ciph3rzer0 I'm not entirely convinced there was a point. I think it's a very interesting quote that is entirely valuable to secular philosophy.
Maybe I'm wrong and there was an intended point about science being bad, but if so it's a really trash argument for that, it's not sound logic, the conclusion doesn't follow. But the conclusion in question is only implied. If we choose to ignore it, we're left with a bit of meta thinking about the trust we have on our own biology and the beliefs we have, regardless of what those beliefs are.
If you ask me, that's right in the lane of epistemology too. So I don't just ignore the conclusion about science being stupid. I straight-up don't believe it's present in this quote.
@@Ciph3rzer0 oh okay oops yeah I saw he plastered it everywhere, he's clearly trying something cringe. There goes my blissful ignorance.
Fundagelicals are experts at talking At people, not to them.
I've met several atheists who could be considered experts in that field as well.
Zero desire to teach or learn. He wanta to program others with his dogma.
100 percent correct
@@blocksbrains4911 Perfectly said
@@blocksbrains4911 it's what they have been programmed to do.
Holy shit. Caleb has displayed that he’s unwilling to listen to what someone else is saying or asking. He’s so much wanting a debate and has his talking points that he won’t move past. It’s really sad.
this guy is just too far gone ...
Fred Nurke - Nah he is willing to find answers and try to justify what he believes.. he said the muslim guy shook him so that shows that he isn't too far gone.. you don't want to give up on these people.. the best atheist communicators we have are also often formerly the most religious..
Just found your channel. Oh, it must be so hard!!!! I can feel my emotions go up when things get fast on these videos. How do you even practice without getting sucked into it? This guys tact was to talk fast, to try and spew out the same 3 points over and over. Evading "Jesus" was probably the best thing. I applaud you on your skills of keeping some control over the conversation. #slowclap
Caleb was a challenge, to be sure. I just hope a little progress was made with him.
You can't argue with a sick mind.
Classic Ray Comfort line of questioning. It's a line of questioning that people are taught. I know cuz I've read much of it.
"At 5 years old I was indoctrinated and here I am today". Yeah cool man, sounds very convincing lol.
I was 5 once. Then I grew up.
Aland Gomez .....I believed in Santa Claus when I was 5 and then I was 6....cheers, 🍷
He's babbling as if he's afraid of hearing a good point.
"It all goes back to Jesus"
If you take a shot everytime he says that, you'll die from alcohol poisoning in 4 minutes.