They did that because the show is supposed to be a comedy and "third leg" is a euphemism for penis. Same reason as why the alien wasn't swayed until he watched Rudolph of all things. Then again the creator of the show thinks trans women are just evolved forms of gay men so I didn't expect much in the first place.
I know that "third leg" means penis as a euphamism, but I can only think of the three-legged lady that runs through your area in Sons Of The Forest. That's actually a third leg, so it's easier to think about for a visualization.
To take the devil advocate side for the sake of an argument, you could argue that removing a person's six finger from a society with five fingers per hand is medical necessary because their quality of life would be negatively impacted by their six finger. For example, they would have to buy specialized gloves which would hurt them monetarily. I would then argue against this point by asking the question at what point of the quality of life decreasing does it become necessary to intervene? Is this the drop of the qualitt of life due to the inherently being six fingers or due to the culture? I would state the culture is causing the inherently drop in the qaylity of life. If the culture caused it then it is a problem with the culture.
I'm absolutely baffled by how one can have written the 'About A Girl' episode without at any point realizing it is basically exactly what happens to intersex kids
Well, first of all, you would have to know they exist in the first place. Now seriously, it's crazy how little they're even mentioned. There's basically zero representation, so I can see why they never thought about it during the whole process (and that makes missing this opportunity even worse)
Ugh. McFarlane is trying to argue against gender affirming care for children by showing a society where that's normal, and everyone who doesn't do kid transgender surgery is considered deviant. It's a rip off of that one Star trek TNG with the planet where everyone was gay
@@habeashumor9814 what, the episode is clearly pro transgender, with it being about accepting she's a girl even though she's "supposed" to be a boy. I don't see how that can be twisted around in such a backwards way.
@@fauxclaws When McFarlane says "You want me to perform a transgender operation on a baby???" I think he's expressing how he feels about little children in the real world getting transgender surgery (even if they don't, it's the main scare tactic used by reactionaries). This episode looked like it was directly lifted from the Star Trek TNG episode about the planet where everyone was gay and straight people had to get conversion therapy. The message was that the aliens' way was wrong. So when the baby in this episode got "transgender surgery" it was also wrong. There is a chance that McFarlane used the later episodes about this character to backpedal this position
@@habeashumor9814 Your taking it to literally, it's a metaphor. in this case the surgery is to make her become cis male "like she's supposed to be biologically", He's offended that they're deciding her gender identity for her. I agree it *shouldn't* have been called a trans surgery because that's confusing and not what it is, It's more like an anti-trans surgery if anything. But despite the flaws in the story telling, the pro trans message is extremely obvious to me. The message doesn't switch just because they got some terminology wrong.
Yes, although I'm glad it didn't turn into "well, I'm actually a woman too" because I feel like showing that Klyden is actually a man despite being "female at birth" is also a good story to tell. I do feel there is a lot of projection from Klyden but I think the show did a good job showing that there are many ways someone's life can go even when it starts in similar ways.
This honestly feels like a repeat of TNG's The Outcast. Star Trek tries to make an episode about homosexuality, but their analogy is just trans people. The Orville tries to make episodes about trans people, but their analogy is just intersex people.
I'm fairly sure that's because the outcast *was* the direct inspiration for the episode. There's several instances of Orville taking the basic premise of a trek episode and doing their own spin on it. I think the intention here is that having direct cast members involved would require the topic be re-addressed in future episodes rather then the trek version where it was an alien of the week and the matter was forgotten once the episode ended. Then in the process of trying to clarify the outcasts trans issues they gave it an intersex focus without realizing. The big error being not realizing they made the same mistake the TNG writers made with insufficient consultation. In both cases, the best of intentions with flawed handling.
I have an intersex friend who got a sex change at age like 3 bc their parents wanted them to be a girl and not have an I or an X on their birth certificate and such. They didn’t know however that the inside was also *both* and they have to take T-blockers since their body produces four times the average cis man amounts of testosterone. It is very horrifying tbh
found it real strange when they point out that circumcision is also done on children and the conversation basically goes "eh yeah but that's normal and this is weird" and then go NO FURTHER in the comparison? just. absolutely bizarre.
There’s a long discussion to be had as to why mainstream society (particularly mainstream American society) recognizes both forcible female circumcision and (increasingly) forcible sex reassignment surgery on the intersex as unconscionable violations of bodily autonomy, but also sees forcible male circumcision as normal and even desirable. AMABs are (wrongly) seen as being incapable of having our bodily autonomy violated by virtue of being born into a patriarchy. You also see it when AMAB SA survivors aren’t taken seriously. AFAB and intersex children are seen as being in need of society’s protection, and AMAB children aren’t. This is why so many AMAB circumcision survivors become radicalized; often, only anti-feminists, men’s rights activists, conspiracy theorists and other extremists are the only ones who won’t laugh at them. We need to do better as a society.
Yes. Children need to treated as people, not property. And survivors of all forms of abuse need to be able to talk about their experiences without shame or judgment.
The male thing is because in most of the world male circumcision is done older so essentially by choice but FGM usually done pre puberty starts what a kind of suffering that is lifelong and since the girls are usually younger informed concent is very low. @@GhostIntoTheFog
"Do they just not know that intersex people exist?" Probably not. A lot of people can barely wrap their heads around transgender, so the mere concept of intersex, something that's only really been handled in media as a sci-fi or horror convention, may genuinely be foreign to the writers. This goes doubly true for the writers of shows like this who are privileged and get to ignore the plight of LGBT+ persons, allowing them to remain ignorant because there's no consequence for it.
There's a lot of truth there. My first introduction to the concept of intersex was as a teenager through a Thelema-infused short story of Michael Moorcock where it was exoticized.
This x 1000000. In 2017 intersex people had absolutely no representation and no visibility which is awful. How can you be seen and shown if nobody knows who you are? We’ve come so far in the last decade in understanding and representing queer/trans/intersex identities. It’s definitely not an excuse to say “oops no intersex folx” but we must understand when this story was being told. I want to think that if Topa’s character existed now their representation would be handled with more nuance and authenticity
@@chelmrtz Authenticity really is the word to describe what's the problem there. Kudos to them for at least trying to broach the subject respectfully, even if it is ignorant, but it is ignorant because they didn't really use the resources available to them. So the Orville episodes focusing on Topa's identity aren't an authentic look into the subject matter, it's the look from outsiders who, outside of this, wouldn't care at all or spend any time thinking on it.
I know why they didn't mention intersex people. Because an intersex person was not in the editing or writing rooms, and if they were then they were either not listened to or did not want to speak up for one reason or another. If a non-intersex person brought it up but it didn't get added, I know why too. Because it was either too controversial OR too "obvious" to the writers about the rightness or ambiguity of intersex infant surgeries.
But as we saw with the one alien too, some intersex people are not only fine with what happened to them but think that it's necessary for it to also happen to others only seeing it as a "mutation" or medical issue because of what they were taught to think about it, some think it was a good thing, some have self hate, and some just have carelessness to the rights to their own, and other ppl's autonomy, internalized from being told it was necessary. I just wanted to bring it up cause I noticed u worded it like all intersex people feel the same when that's unrealistic. I think Occam's razor would say that simply none of the writers thought of it because everyone writing it either didn't know about the issue and or none have ever thought about those issues in that way seeing how similar it is.
@@hypnopompicfool985 What you say in your second paragraph, about how probably none of the writers knew about the issue, or thought about it in that way is exactly the reason why having diversity in writing rooms makes representation better - because you increase the chances of someone involved in the storytelling knowing about the issues, or having a perspective which will allow the story to come from a more informed position. I think it's valuable to point out that no community is a monolith, as you have - and as Lily said when talking about the episodes, having the partner be someone who has had the gender conformity operation himself and have the perspective that it's important for that to happen to his child also actually makes the storyline more interesting and takes it away from being an interspecies cross cultural issue, where it's like the humans are trying to impost their values on the Mokkla.
It also amazes me that circumcision is still legal and common practice on infants on earth in whatever year the orville takes place in. So much for utopia. Because yeah the doctor who said she'd do a circumcision IS a hypocrite. preforming medically unneeded cosmetic surgery on an infant is insane.
@@paulhammond6978 There are not enough people with intersex conditions who are also writers to have that kind of diversity in writing rooms. I just ran the numbers, and there are at most 25 intersex television writers in all of America.
I'll be honest, I think the best way to look at the Topa arc is probably as an allegory, not only for intersex people or for trans people, but for intersex trans people specifically. Topa is born with sex characteristics that don't conform with her species' sex/gender boxes (well, box) and is forcibly altered to conform, to appear male. She then grows up and is expected to conform to the male box she was forcibly assigned to. She experiences what, I would argue, sounds a lot like gender dysphoria. It's then revealed to her that, actually, she wasn't born male, it's something she's being forced to conform to, both socially and medically. With support, she is able to transition and be herself. It's still messy and, to be clear, I'm not convinced it was intentional on the part of the writers. They really could have benefitted from someone, idk, bringing up intersex people at least once. Still, I do think that understanding it in this light does make the message of the story arc seem a little less muddied. Then again, perhaps that was inevitable, given its nature as an allegory. I mean we're talking about an alien species with only one socially acceptable, normative, sex/gender, male. It makes sense that the story would, in a sense, inevitably have bits of trans, intersex, nonbinary, and even feminist themes all wrapped up together. I do wish they did a better job at, idk, sorting through them, but I guess that was left to the audience; for better or worse.
I mean they did have an episode where that Alara replacement dated a moclan man... that was top notch allegory with no room for doubt they were discussing homophobia.
Part of it is there is a lot of intersect between experiences of trans, intersex people as well as the gender-related biases such as misogyny. So it is unsurprising that all of that would sort of end up in a story attempting to allegory regarding it.
Honestly I have struggled in the past watching lily, as honestly she sometimes is just very negative or overly critical FOR ME SPECIFICALLY to be clear. I just find that, ultimately the message they were trying to send was clear and gets the point across at least decently well for a general audience. Lot of people got a somewhat okay view of a version of the trans experience, especially with the parents reactions. I find that that is what truly matters at the end of the day, the specifics and finer details aren’t as important as the intended message imo.
@@DellikkilleD Actually, it's clear that they have at least 2, it's just that only one is socially acceptable. Sort of like how, in our culture, there are only two accepted genders. Nonetheless, people who are non-binary, who are neither accepted gender, exist, and, for the record, many of them do have gender dysphoria. Theirs just looks different from what binary trans people experience. Topa's gender being outside her society's accepted gender box is one way in which she is a bit like non-binary people. Regardless, I'm not saying that she actually has gender dysphoria, just that what she expresses sounds a lot like things a trans kid struggling with gender dysphoria might express before transitioning; feeling like there's something "wrong" with her, like the person she is is "incomplete," a "placeholder," or a "bookmark," suicidal ideation, saying "my body has been screaming to me that I am someone else" and that "I may appear to be male... but what is inside me still exists." On their own, they might not imply anything, but taken together, and in the context of, well, the episode where Topa literally transitions, they sure do paint an experience that sounds a lot like what gender dysphoria feels like, to me. You might not interpret it that way, that's fine. It's still an analogy after all.
Honestly gotta tell on myself here and say that I watched The Orville, really enjoyed Topa's story and never once realised any of the problems that you brought up in this video. It is a squandered opportunity for some genuine intersex representation, and while overall I think it really is trying its best to tell a positive trans story, it is far from perfect in ways that I now feel really dumb for missing. Thanks for laying it all out, great video as always!
You're not dumb! Critical analysis of media is a skill that takes practice, for anyone. And even if you're very good at it, that doesn't mean you're always applying a systematic critical lens to everything you engage with. Lily does excellent and insightful analysis, but that doesn't mean you're stupid for not picking up on this stuff on your watch! This is a skill she's clearly honed over time, and for videos like this I imagine she spends time really delving into the material with a critical lens and then planning how to present the analysis. I have a grad degree in literary analysis, and while that analytical lens is usually present to some degree, it's not always at the forefront every time I watch/read something, and there is a lot of stuff I don't pick up on at first pass. I have to put in some more intentional effort to reflect on the media with a critical lens, if I want to develop some solid analytical insights about it. There are lots of times I've watched/read fiction, then watched/read others' analysis of the thing and found insights that had never crossed my mind at all. Even those of us who specialize in media/lit analysis can have shallow understandings of some media, because we're not always engaging that critical analysis eye intentionally and systematically. Anyway, sorry for the rant! Haha. I just hate that people feel stupid for not getting deep analytical insights out of things right away. You aren't stupid!
There’s an episode of SVU where a young girl finds out she was born a boy and was given a reassignment operation after a particularly nasty circumcision accident, and decides she wants to transition back to being male, which I’d love to hear Lily do commentary on.
I remember watching the first episode and thinking it was an allegory to intersex people but was weird that they didn't mention it. "humans used to do something similar before we learned it was so harmful" was probably a good argument to bring up. Also Klyden saying all kids are unhappy very much reminds me of my (probably autistic) mum telling me everyone feels that way and I'll grow out of it when I tried to explain how I was weird/different as a kid before I learned about autism and got diagnosed. It was her experience and she assumed it was universal, a lot of her family are likely autistic too so it probably seemed true within that context.
In 2 topas it really hurt seeing her pain, because like she reached out to the one character she knew tried to "deactivate" himself, meaning she had those thoughts. Good on Isaac for going for help
You know, I didn't think of the confusion between transgender and intersex topics when I first saw these episodes myself. But definitely, compared to Seth's past works, it's definitely an improvement. Perfect? No, but far better than the 60-second vomit-a-thon of old. An E for effort.
I absolutely wanted to enter the military because i thought it would change my life in a positive way. However, none of the recruiters were happy that my major was going to be "theatre arts."
Speaking as a veteran: It was none of your recruiters business what major you were planning to study. But is does sound like your recruiter was part of the shrinking population of the military who who still buys into old fashion ideas of masculinity.
@@drizzmatec thanks for the insight! This was back in 1990-1991, shortly before Clinton and Don't Ask Don't Tell; Don't know if the rules have changed since then, but it was very short sighted on their part.
Timestamp 55:21 - The reason why Topa is still female beneath the male-veneer is NOT because Topa was born with female anatomy -- but rather, because the sex-change Topa had at birth was done without Topa’s consent for reasons that had nothing to do with Topa’s gender identity but instead was for the purpose of satisfying the meddling agendas of adults. There _are_ real-live Topas. Surely you have heard of David Reimer. The reason David could not abide as female was not because he was born with a penis, but rather, because the decision to surgically alter him as a baby and raise him as a girl was to bolster the pet-theory of the unethical John Money. Oh - John Hopkins - always on the wrong side of gender history.
Agreed! I was going to comment specifically about Reimer as well. The story is often wielded by transphobes as evidence of an inherent link between gender and sex, when really it more so proves the ineffectiveness of conversion therapy, and the strength of gender dysphoria. I don't think anyone will argue over the fact that most people are cis, therefor, if you force transition a baby, there's a good chance they'll still be cis and "re-transition" later. I do think though in the context that this was written AS a trans story, but involves manipulation at birth, both the line and plot as a whole get pretty muddied.
Right, when I first saw the episode, I actually took that as a rather pro-trans statement. That, no matter what Topa's body looks like, ultimately Topa's gender is determined by her internal sense of self, that is her gender identity, and despite their best efforts at medical intervention, forcibly changing that sense of self isn't possible. Like @cecilross2848 said, it shows how conversion therapy is ineffective.
It’s also worth pointing out that Reimer was a survivor of a “botched” circumcision, which opened the door for this unethical experiment. Yet, parents are always assured that circumcisions are 100 percent safe (while also signing a document acknowledging the opposite and promising not to sue if anything goes wrong). It’s a for-profit con, and even pointing out this simple fact will result in bad-faith accusations of anti-Semitism and Islamophobia.
Yep. I think it's more of an issue of imprecise wording than an actual problematic idea. Really, the same thing applies to trans people, especially trans kids- no matter how much you try to have them conform, their inner self will still remain. The Village by Wrabel comes to mind actually!
The Orville was a surprisingly good show. The Topa episodes start a bit rocky with the mixing of trans and intersex allegory, but they messaging does improve in later series. Ultimately the message that the show is driving at is a very positive one even if it doesn't map perfectly. It feels more like TNG or DS9 often more than modern Star Trek does. My expectations were low but I was pleasantly surprised. If anyone hasn't seen it, give it a shot. Just try not to let any Mcfarlane hang-ups colour your experience too much.
This was THE episode for me back when The Orville was new, as in the episode where i was fully settled in that I love this series. My personal favorite thing might the the fact that they lost; after all this hard work, time, and effort to keep Topa's original gender, they failed. I love that they don't just come Day One and change an entire species mind with "Protagonist power", The Moclans are a species that has existed for maybe countless years and may have been doing this for eons. They just aren't just gonna change their ways all because a small group of people want them too. It also invites future episodes on the topic
That's a good take. I feel like I saw the original episode when it first came out and had the opposite direction and didn't keep up. Albeit, it might have been one of the other things going on with Toppa's parents around their queerness that skeeved me out. In any case, if I had known they'd take it where they did, I think I'd have looked much more kindly on the series as I do think that even though it was on accident and messy and flawed, it does seem to depict the arc of a trans intersex person.
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And even afterwards this leads to a BIG problem with the Moclans. It's a nice way of making something that could be treated as minor into something bigger.
I do genuinely think the orvile is a good show, and it clearly shows that Seth CAN be a good writer if he wants to; while its not well researched when it comes social issues, it clearly has a moral of creating an accommodating society as the baseline of progression, and I think thats admirable for the kind of network it was on
I think it might be good for you to know that with Family Guy and The Cleveland Show, that Seth McFarlane was not actually involved with a lot of the later seasons, he was a writer for the earlier seasons, and basically a lot of creators do take a step back after like 4 or 5 seasons. Trey Parker and Matt Stone are the rare exception to that rule. Like for eg Matt Groening of The Simpsons only really did write for the earlier seasons in the 90's. So you cannot blame Seth McFarlane for the writing of the trans episodes of his shows especially not for the best written trans episode in a Seth McFarlane created show the American Dad episode cause that is the show he was the least involved in.
In fairness, researching these issue is an absolute nightmare because the arguments and terminology is in a constant state of flux and basically none of it is rationally coherent. I've been watching from the sidelines for 20 years, and I've discovered that if you ask any real questions, you just get called transphobic.
@@wolfofthewest8019I mean you just said that the terminology isn't rationally coherent. the fact that you just assume everyone else experiences this as you do or that it never comes to mind that perhaps people interpreted you as a transphobic person from the way you talked is saddening.
you mentioned it during the video, there's a House episode about an intersex child who experiences medical issues due to the fact that being intersex was hidden from them. there's also an episode of House where a supermodel learns she's intersex when developing cancer.
For me, this whole arc feels well-meaning but clumsy and a little meandering when it comes to its metaphors, so as a tribute to classic Star Trek, I think The Orville is a huge success.
"Don't start passing out penises yet captain borak" I love this show, why is that quote so funny? The magic is that it's the dumb fart joke guy but he's lowkey the biggest Star Trek nerd on earth and taking it seriously. This serious unseriousness is like, my signature character flaw. Representation.
I wouldn't personally call McFarlane's love of Trek "lowkey", he was a regular on Star Trek Enterprise. That said, I absolutely love how the team pretty clearly wrote the first few episodes to be a Trojan horse. "See? Whacky space American Dad. Don't worry about it..." *three episodes later* "SUCK SHIT, FOX! IT'S ACTUALLY NEXT GENERATION SEASON SEVEN AND THERES NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT!"
@@SamuraiMujuru well you have to be a pretty big star trek nerd yourself to remember he's actually in some of it. Some third rate engineer who doesn't even have a creepy endearing parasocial addiction to holograms. NEERD Anyway he's still somehow lowkey compared to vic mignogna
It feels like modern Star Trek is trying to be Star Wars, so it’s really nice to have a show that’s trying to be the Star Trek even Star Trek isn’t anymore
Something I thought kind of telling about the Toppa arc was the social media response that seemed to be a mix of both pro- and anti- trans comments each believing the episode represented their stance. The messages that got Liked by the show's account were pro- so I guess that's the angle they intended, but it's interesting that so many people read it the other way, either because of the mess of an analogy or because anti- voices don't actually know what they are talking about, or a mix of both I guess.
@@OneEyeShadow unfortunately the concept of a society so misogynistic that they want to make girls into boys as soon as possible against their will, as ridiculous as it is, is exactly what terfs think our goal is. the emphasis on choice in these episodes makes it clear to *me* that it means to be pro-trans, but i feel like they chose a terrible metaphor to represent the issue
I think it's leaning more towards the latter. The episodes weren't super clear, especially early on, but the further you get the more mental gymnastics you have to do to read it as anti-trans. So eventually the only people likely to see it that way are anti-trans activists and people who get their information form them. Like, Isaac's line is pretty blatant.
Given the propensity of Right-Wingers who decry woke trek while proclaiming supposed interest in past trek....... I would go with the latter. Sometimes I wonder what shows these people were watching.... because it wasn't trek.
Conservatives do not have media literacy. It is basically a requirement to fall for the conservative ideology. You have to basically ignore that an episode or movie is outwardly and specifically critiquing you and your stances. Because otherwise, a TON of culture and art would either turn you away from conservative though, or you'd have to basically only watch PragerU or Daily Wire. And as much as conservatives simp those groups, they also know deep down that it is embarrassingly bad content with almost 0 redeeming qualities
A Tale of Two Toppas felt like the episode the series was building up to at that point. So many arcs culminate in this one episode from Toppa's forced "correction", to Klyden and Bortus's breakup, as well as a few smaller moments. One thing in particular was through the series they constantly teased Bortus singing so to finally get that moment in this episode alongside yet another incredible moment of Issac "humanity" as he defends his patient from her abusive father was an incredible payoff. I love how Toppa feels like a main cast member for the rest of season 3 after this as well. She easily became my favorite character in just a handful of episodes and I can't wait to see more of her in season 4. They are going to have one hell of a tough time redeeming Klyden after all this shit though and I'm still sour at how easily Bortus took him back....
I feel as though bortus only took him back in for the sake of topa. You saw how angry and upset he was at klyden before, but still bit through it for the sake of topa. This feels more of the same. Where he saw how happy Topa was to see her other daddy again, and decided to put up with it.
@@TheKally He saw Klyden had changed, and his genuine remorse. There is a glorious acting moment as you see the tension drop out from Bortus as he realises, listening, that Klyden has indeed changed, and this no longer lies between them. Also, to be fair, Klyden does not want it to be magically okay again. His change is not yet done and he knows it.
I'm going to take this as a win because Seth seems to be transitioning his views from blatant transphobia to a more soft transphobia. Rome wasn't built in a day, I suppose.
Interesting thing abt the 3rd leg allegory. It did happen once there was this guy in the 19th century Scottish Highlands who was born with an extra vestigial leg. His parents thought he was cursed so they kept him isolated, not allowing him to go to school or interact with his siblings. He eventually became a recluse wearing a large kilt to hide 'the thing'. Eventually some surgeons from Edinburgh found out abt him and convinced him to come in and have it removed which was fairly easy since it was mostly fatty tissue (tho it did have a non-functional urethra!). He survived without complications and went on to die of a uti some months later. And the leg is on display in surgeons hall, Edinburgh its super grim.
1:19:36 the food i cooked did turn out good! Thanks! But also thanks for spending so much of your time on a bunch of episodes of .... "they tried" genre of representation. It's frustrating to know someone had good intentions but still missed the mark in a completely fixable way.
Yup!! The intersex community even has a similar percentage as given for trans to the general population, but are ignored even more than us.... Seth doesn't have a brilliant track record for being ahead of the curve, tho....
I always thought the perfect way to make this actually a bit more of a trans allegory and perhaps to make up for McFarland's extremely transphobic past, would be for Kelly to note casually she was assigned male at birth. Obviously having a cis actress play a trans person isn't ideal but I feel like it would be far outweighed by showing the audience that in the future for humans it's become totally uncontroversial and make them confront why this should change their views of a character they've already connected with. Of course without trans writers or consultants that would probably not work great but because it's far in the future presumably well past any bigotry transphobia etc it wouldn't really alter how they wrote the character besides her perhaps having more knowledge of trans liberation history. Plus the idea of Seth MacFarlands love interest being trans delights me, though I'm sure he'd be unwilling to accept such a pitch.
I dunno if it's THE show, but it is a show that applied to yes. It used a metaphor, so transphobes did their best to misunderstand it as they always do. Or well, anti-trans activists did their best, and less obsessive transphobes didn't know any better I guess.
Star Trek The Next Generation has an episode called The Outsider that it's supposed to be a gay allegory, but it's accidentally a trans story I feel this is what's happened here. they meant to make a trans allegory but hey did an intersex allegory instead
Funny story re: the military. I was in the army, wife was in the AF (and a deeply closeted trans woman). We met in the military, her best friend in the AF was a trans woman, one of my favorite underlings was a trans man. Most of the trans people I know are veterans. A few of the trans women vets I know have said they joined to "man up" and the trans men joined because it was a stereotypically male occupation. There are a lot of flaws about the military and veteran care, but at least the VA facility we get treatment through is outstanding for trans healthcare. Mental healthcare not as mucb, but the clinic that handles trans care is awesome.
Having recently started that journey myself, it's actually genuinely fascinating how efficiently and cleanly the US Military handles it. It's actually even easier in the National Guard. The fact that it gets treated in the system as just, 'this is fine, it's normal and you're in good hands, here's what we're going to do and we'll do everything we can to help you through this' is so gratifying, and shockingly comforting. And while in-unit situations are obviously going to be YMMV, the actual medical and leadership situation is handled with a dignity and grace that I was not expecting out of the same system that flubs so much.
I’m not sure if I’m giving Seth too much credit, but the conversation at 50:36 makes me think Klyden isn’t purposely being an abusive parent, necessarily. More so that, due to him being born female and having the surgery without his knowledge, HE grew up feeling unhappy but just bottled up those feelings by “getting over it” and he just assumes that all children are unhappy when growing up. Alluding to a nice critique on the bigotry of the moclan society.
I don't need allegories to be direct 1:1 analogies, and I don't mind mixed metaphors in sci-fi, so I can excuse a lot of the lack of specificity in what human experiences it maps to at different points in the story. It's a bit of this, a bit of that, and a bit of the other thing. I do still think there are moments that were clumsy in their execution and words chosen, and I think there were elphants in the room that definitely could have been addressed, but ultimately I think it adds up to an emotionally effective and kind story, even if it does have its "boomer moments". There was an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation that I watched the other day, which I believe inspired this storyline to a large extent. "The Outcast". I'd say that was clumsier. The Orville's Topa storyline feels like an evolution of that idea that doesn't quite reach perfection but does come closer to it. Both would have been helped by having human trans/nonbinary/intersex characters in them.
I’m glad you brought up circumcision (and also glad that MacFarlane didn’t try to deny it was a violation of bodily autonomy), but it’s worth pointing out that the “medical benefits” proponents tout fall into only two categories: scientifically dubious and scientifically baseless. For example, proponents will claim it will reduce the chance of contracting and spreading HPV and reduce the chance of penile/cervical cancer in the child and their future partners. However, circumcised individuals can still contract and spread HPV, and said proponents will never bring up that the HPV vaccine and cervical screenings can accomplish this without subjecting an infant to traumatizing and irreversible surgery. In fact, Australia is on the verge of statistical elimination of cervical cancer using this strategy. (Penile cancer is exceptionally rare and never has been and likely never will be of public concern anywhere on earth.) Another commonly touted benefit is that it will reduce the odds of the child contracting a UTI throughout their first year of life. They don’t mention that ritual circumcisions can have the opposite effect due to poor hygiene practices and wound care and that, even if that were true, UTIs are easily treatable with antibiotics and are rarely life-threatening. The other major selling point is that it will make the child less likely to contract or spread HIV, which, just like the HPV argument, is a dubious claim. Even most proponents will admit there is no clinical evidence of this in regions of the world where HIV is not widespread. In addition, the medical risks (including risks as serious as death and amputation) are rarely disclosed to parents. Other risks, such as severe scarring (which even the most experienced surgeon can’t always avoid), as well as tightness, discomfort and reduced sensation during sex, are also rarely disclosed and even callously dismissed by proponents. It should also raise alarm bells that the most commonly cited justification is the AAP’s long-expired 2012 policy statement, which was heavily based on papers published by a molecular biologist and circumcision enthusiast named B.J. Morris (who has never conducted any direct studies of his own and has even suggested circumcision should be compulsory and that it’s comparable to vaccination). If someone chooses to violate their child’s bodily autonomy and are using the aforementioned “medical benefits” as justification, they’ve not made an ethically or medically sound decision. These “medical benefits” are a fig leaf for forcing a parent’s cultural, religious or aesthetic preferences on their children.
I watched this show purely in anticipation for this video. One of my favorite aspects was watching Bortus become an absolute giga chad supportive father. He has the character arc that I wish Worf had properly gotten.
It's truly baffling how much TNG just really didn't want to do anything with Alexander and seemed to actively hate the idea of bringing him up or giving Worf real depth as a father after his introduction.
I couldn’t stand most Worf/Alexander episodes, because they just involved Worf being either neglectful or overbearing and Alexander lashing out. There was never any catharsis.
What's weird is that they absolutely had the opportunity to do a trans episode at one point. In one episode a Moclan comes on the ship and shows interest in a female member of the crew. This is bad because Moclans hate "straight" people for liking women just as much as they hate women. The plot felt kind of redundant because it didn't break any new ground on Moclan customs and it didn't advance the relationship with Moclas and the Union in any way. It also feels pointless in that I doubt the shows viewers need to be told its okay to be gay. It's not the 90s-00s anymore. What would have been poinent is if they encountered a "male" Moclan that was NOT born female, but wished to transition. I doubt they would have done this as they would think "we've already done a trans episode", but as you laid out thats not really the case.
I've been really looking forward to this one. As someone who's watched the Orville (and am commenting before watching this video), my take on the arc that's definitely going to be what this vid is examining is that it gets things a bit wrong from time-to-time, but its heart is clearly in the right place, and it's pretty clear they were working hard as they went on to course-correct based on ongoing feedback. I'll be interested to see if you see things the same way! :D
Have you ever thought of covering Klinger from MASH? As a kid I really loved him, as an adult I really like him. I know it’s not exactly a good representation of transness, but I think he’s a good character to cover from a trans perspective
Honestly Klinger as a character (bruh I’ve watched MASH all the way through so many times) is a great character to talk about for a discussion on the entire intersectionality of him as a person in that setting. Especially as the series goes on and it’s more normal to compliment Klinger’s outfit and ask where he got it or tell him he looks lovely to cheer him up and the entire troop being very defensive of him if anyone tries to be hurtful, and his arc of personality in response to those actions and attitudes. It’s all very good, and amazing for the time it was airing on television!
It's sad how these could have been such phenomenal pro-intersex episodes if the writers weren't so confused about the difference between being intersex and being transgender.
I remember watching this whole saga side by side on the couch with my violently transphobic father and brother. I spent the whole time wondering how they could continue to believe the things they did about trans people after seeing all that. I imagine they were thinking the exact same about me.
The idea that the kid who had that forced sex change wants to join the military to fill a hole in their life is particularly interesting to me because of something I listened to once on a podcast for my anthropology class. It's a podcast series called Gonads, about sex and gender, and in one of the first episodes they brought on an intersex person to talk about their experience being born intersex and having a gender assignment surgery without knowing about it for years and they mentioned joining the military and various other groups for a similar reason. I wonder if the writers took those kinds of experiences into consideration when writing that episode, or if it was just a happy accident, considering they never seemed to point out intersex experiences in the first installment of this saga.
as far as why the first episodes were so shakey on using the actual term intersex it is important to remeber that seasons 1 and 2 aired on FOX New Horzions which released post pandemic was a Hulu exclusive (later brought to Disney +) I'm sure Seth was so used to needing to keep his allegory vauge for the "FOX audiance" to get his messages through to them and part of that is seen in how he words stuff in New Horizions as well- I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt since we all know what kind of company FOX can be. I think the true test of his growth will be season 4 as it will be far enough removed from his tenure with FOX that old writing habits should have died out by then.
Yeah, I've always gotten the impression that the first handful of episodes lean more heavily into the comedy to give fox a false sense of security before finally pulling the rug out to reveal that it was Next Generation season 7 all along.
You keep capitalizing Fox like FOX and I know it’s because that’s how Fox is written but I keep getting mentally Jumpscare by Fox being “shouted” at me
I doubt there'll ever be a season four, especially with Seth MacFarlane refusing to let the show live outside him and him moving on to that creepy nightmare that is _Ted._
I had to do a doubletake at the end of the video when you wished me luck on the magic the gathering deck I was building... because that's what I was doing... Pinkie Pie commander deck, I just need like 3 more cards.
@@tkmry158 Yeah it's something about every card I play is a member of the psrtyz and for every card I play with a smile in it's artwork I get a treasure token. if theres typos it's because I just went to the eye doctor and can't read right now.
boosting cause I can't watch now but I don't want it to flop before I come back!! love you Lily! (in the appropriate way for a content consumer to love a content maker)
DUDE I LOVE THIS SHOW very excited to hear you talk about it finally!! Its trans rep is very. Very interesting to say the least but actually has heartfelt moments that made me SO so emotional lol so very excited to see this!
1:17:07 as a part of the lgbtqia+ I had no idea that those surgeries on intersex people happened. There are members of this community that are biased and/or lacks certain points of information. There could have been a single consultant that simply knew nothing of intersex, like I did before this video
It really feels like this story was a victim of the pulp sci-fi show tendency not to examine matters of gender and sexuality without putting some sort of wacky alien twist on it. In this case conflating trans and intersex struggles in a way eerily reminiscent of the way transphobes frame the story of David Reimer.
Reimer had his bodily autonomy violated twice: once when his infant circumcision resulted in amputation, and twice when his unethical doctor suggested sex reassignment was preferable to living life with said disfigurement. It’s almost like we shouldn’t be pushing cosmetic surgery of any kind of newborn children, but what do I know?
Well, my crochet project is going well, lol. Thank you for covering this. You helped point out where I thought some of it felt off. Overall I still enjoyed the effort they made with this, especially revisiting the story of the Moclans and Topa, in several episodes, and not just staying episodic like TNG for example. It's definitely not perfect, but I do appreciate the direction they were going, especially compared to Seth's older work. Also, that cat is awesome!
I always saw the connection to transgender issues in the first episode as a "incorrect" gender being assigned at birth based on societal norms in a way even bigots and biology Bros could understand, That's its downfall. your spot on with the insane blind spot to intersex people, It's so glaring I think it might have been on purpose They didn't want to touch on it.
I love your content I'm surprised you didn't break this up into three parts. I would have watched all three And I'm pretty sure completing the video helps your metrics
Pretty sure that not many people have talked about intersex surgeries before, so it honestly makes sense to compare it to something that's not connected to gender or sex, to not confuse the poor audience.
This could have been an opportunity for the show to explain that, as star trek and its -alikes tend to do. "In the far distant past of the 2020s, humans born as intersex would be given surgeries to fit in without their or even their parents consent...in our new progressive society we obviously do not do this."
The Orville is one of the only shows I ever rage quit. It's messages are so clunky and ham-fisted. How many times do they have to repeat that judging people with a voting system is bad in that one Black Mirror ripoff episode? I couldn't finish the Holocaust allegory episode because, as a Jew directly descended from victims and survivors, I'm sick and tired of lazily written Holocaust allegories (thanks Supergirl for showing us a Holocaust with badly CGIed aliens). And the show isn't even funny. That first scene when the main characters meet was so awkward.
DS9 is really the only show that made a Holocaust allegory work but it's because it was foundational to the show and they explored the effects and complexities in depth. It's not the kind of topic you can just visit in one "very special episode"
The third or fourth time they used their version of the prime directive to justify leaving a planet to continue commiting horrific crimes of humanity alone I quit the show.
So one of the big problems with The Orville is that Seth Mcfarlane apparently micromanages the writing of the show and, well, he isn't great on these topics. That's also, apparently, one of the reasons why the show is probably done and over with. It takes too long for him to actually write a season of TV (even super short Hulu seasons) so there's no feasible way to keep the entire cast on retainer while they wait for him.
Very possible that you won't see this, but I was thinking you could review some of the gender politics in Scrubs. I don't think there are any trans people in it outright, (though I swear I remember Dr. Kelso using the T-slur at some point, and I just cannot find the episode) but Dr. Cox consistently calls the main character by girls names, and refers to him as a woman. It also has the frankly bizarre case of our cis protagonist having a canonical deadname, since his parents were expecting a girl, so they called him Joanna until he was THREE YEARS OLD. I just feel like there's a lot to explore there in terms of perceived masculinity, but also how Dr. Cox remains so likeable, and otherwise incredibly liberal in spite of his treatment of J.D. No pressure, though. Love your work.
As an intersex person, I was SO thankful you actually talked about the issues we've faced and continue to face. My mother didn't even get a choice in the matter, the doctors simply took it into their own hands. it's been a whole lot, dealing with that for all my life. Even if The Orville bungled the issue so very badly, I was very glad to hear you actually go into the matter that impacts a whole lot more people than many realize.
I will be honest I do use your videos as background noise but at the same time, these are really awesome to listen to because I’m always interested in what your opinion is on certain medias in particular those who affect me as a trans person
I’m so glad to find a video like this. I watched all the Orville and liked it for the most part but I was really uncomfortable by the whole Topa topic. As a cis(ish) dude I really didn’t know if my misgivings about it were valid. Glad to know you had almost exactly the same opinions on it I did lol.
You're the first person I've seen who brought up the intersex parallels! It's quite well done for something that wasn't planned. Does this count as an accidental ally moment then? Like, you mention a couple moments that can be seen as anti trans, but not only have people related to Topa's troubles as being gender dysphoria, but the show accidentally expressed dislike for intersex babies without even realising it
Honestly I just think at least one of the writers in the room read Discworld at one point, read people pointing out how Female Dwarves in Discworld could be read as Trans (Because there is only one Gender and that's Dwarf so Female Dwarves have to transition and all, and reportedly Pratchett wasn't against that interpretation) and tried to recreate it here, except intentionally rather than incidentally.
In stead of a third leg - why did they not bring up a real-life variation that involves someone being born with six fingers rather than five?
They did that because the show is supposed to be a comedy and "third leg" is a euphemism for penis. Same reason as why the alien wasn't swayed until he watched Rudolph of all things. Then again the creator of the show thinks trans women are just evolved forms of gay men so I didn't expect much in the first place.
Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya.
I know that "third leg" means penis as a euphamism, but I can only think of the three-legged lady that runs through your area in Sons Of The Forest. That's actually a third leg, so it's easier to think about for a visualization.
that's immediately what I thought of.
To take the devil advocate side for the sake of an argument, you could argue that removing a person's six finger from a society with five fingers per hand is medical necessary because their quality of life would be negatively impacted by their six finger. For example, they would have to buy specialized gloves which would hurt them monetarily.
I would then argue against this point by asking the question at what point of the quality of life decreasing does it become necessary to intervene? Is this the drop of the qualitt of life due to the inherently being six fingers or due to the culture? I would state the culture is causing the inherently drop in the qaylity of life. If the culture caused it then it is a problem with the culture.
I'm absolutely baffled by how one can have written the 'About A Girl' episode without at any point realizing it is basically exactly what happens to intersex kids
Well, first of all, you would have to know they exist in the first place.
Now seriously, it's crazy how little they're even mentioned. There's basically zero representation, so I can see why they never thought about it during the whole process (and that makes missing this opportunity even worse)
Ugh. McFarlane is trying to argue against gender affirming care for children by showing a society where that's normal, and everyone who doesn't do kid transgender surgery is considered deviant. It's a rip off of that one Star trek TNG with the planet where everyone was gay
@@habeashumor9814 what, the episode is clearly pro transgender, with it being about accepting she's a girl even though she's "supposed" to be a boy. I don't see how that can be twisted around in such a backwards way.
@@fauxclaws When McFarlane says "You want me to perform a transgender operation on a baby???" I think he's expressing how he feels about little children in the real world getting transgender surgery (even if they don't, it's the main scare tactic used by reactionaries). This episode looked like it was directly lifted from the Star Trek TNG episode about the planet where everyone was gay and straight people had to get conversion therapy. The message was that the aliens' way was wrong. So when the baby in this episode got "transgender surgery" it was also wrong. There is a chance that McFarlane used the later episodes about this character to backpedal this position
@@habeashumor9814 Your taking it to literally, it's a metaphor. in this case the surgery is to make her become cis male "like she's supposed to be biologically", He's offended that they're deciding her gender identity for her. I agree it *shouldn't* have been called a trans surgery because that's confusing and not what it is, It's more like an anti-trans surgery if anything. But despite the flaws in the story telling, the pro trans message is extremely obvious to me.
The message doesn't switch just because they got some terminology wrong.
The "all children are unhappy" could also be projection of their childhood experience getting over what happened to them.
Yes, although I'm glad it didn't turn into "well, I'm actually a woman too" because I feel like showing that Klyden is actually a man despite being "female at birth" is also a good story to tell. I do feel there is a lot of projection from Klyden but I think the show did a good job showing that there are many ways someone's life can go even when it starts in similar ways.
This honestly feels like a repeat of TNG's The Outcast.
Star Trek tries to make an episode about homosexuality, but their analogy is just trans people.
The Orville tries to make episodes about trans people, but their analogy is just intersex people.
I guess that means that eventually a tv show will make an episode/arc about intersex people, and it will end up being about the gays?
At least it goes to show how well Orvile imitates its inspiration, warts and all.
I'm fairly sure that's because the outcast *was* the direct inspiration for the episode. There's several instances of Orville taking the basic premise of a trek episode and doing their own spin on it. I think the intention here is that having direct cast members involved would require the topic be re-addressed in future episodes rather then the trek version where it was an alien of the week and the matter was forgotten once the episode ended. Then in the process of trying to clarify the outcasts trans issues they gave it an intersex focus without realizing. The big error being not realizing they made the same mistake the TNG writers made with insufficient consultation. In both cases, the best of intentions with flawed handling.
@@Caparo479my money is on it being about ace people, then someone makes an ace episode but its bi people, followed by bi ep about gay people
@@bjam89or they somehow fumble the task so completely it ends up being about aromantic people lmao
Timestamp 27:20 - Actually - many times, the parents themselves are not informed when their intersex babies are surgically altered.
Welp that's horrifying.
@JustinW332 - Definitely _should_ be illegal - but there are _lots_ of things that should be illegal but are not.
I have an intersex friend who got a sex change at age like 3 bc their parents wanted them to be a girl and not have an I or an X on their birth certificate and such. They didn’t know however that the inside was also *both* and they have to take T-blockers since their body produces four times the average cis man amounts of testosterone. It is very horrifying tbh
dont those surgeries involve stitching? Wouldn't a parent notice that why changingtheir babies? or is it a thing of "Whelp it's been done ig"
Or the doctors just present it as medically necessary, and the parents don’t realize they have a choice.
found it real strange when they point out that circumcision is also done on children and the conversation basically goes "eh yeah but that's normal and this is weird" and then go NO FURTHER in the comparison? just. absolutely bizarre.
There’s a long discussion to be had as to why mainstream society (particularly mainstream American society) recognizes both forcible female circumcision and (increasingly) forcible sex reassignment surgery on the intersex as unconscionable violations of bodily autonomy, but also sees forcible male circumcision as normal and even desirable. AMABs are (wrongly) seen as being incapable of having our bodily autonomy violated by virtue of being born into a patriarchy. You also see it when AMAB SA survivors aren’t taken seriously. AFAB and intersex children are seen as being in need of society’s protection, and AMAB children aren’t. This is why so many AMAB circumcision survivors become radicalized; often, only anti-feminists, men’s rights activists, conspiracy theorists and other extremists are the only ones who won’t laugh at them. We need to do better as a society.
Yes. Children need to treated as people, not property. And survivors of all forms of abuse need to be able to talk about their experiences without shame or judgment.
The male thing is because in most of the world male circumcision is done older so essentially by choice but FGM usually done pre puberty starts what a kind of suffering that is lifelong and since the girls are usually younger informed concent is very low. @@GhostIntoTheFog
yeah i would actually hope that this society viewed it as unacceptable at this point.
@@OnlyARide at 18 they are people, until then? not so much mate.
"Do they just not know that intersex people exist?"
Probably not. A lot of people can barely wrap their heads around transgender, so the mere concept of intersex, something that's only really been handled in media as a sci-fi or horror convention, may genuinely be foreign to the writers. This goes doubly true for the writers of shows like this who are privileged and get to ignore the plight of LGBT+ persons, allowing them to remain ignorant because there's no consequence for it.
There's a lot of truth there. My first introduction to the concept of intersex was as a teenager through a Thelema-infused short story of Michael Moorcock where it was exoticized.
This x 1000000. In 2017 intersex people had absolutely no representation and no visibility which is awful. How can you be seen and shown if nobody knows who you are? We’ve come so far in the last decade in understanding and representing queer/trans/intersex identities. It’s definitely not an excuse to say “oops no intersex folx” but we must understand when this story was being told. I want to think that if Topa’s character existed now their representation would be handled with more nuance and authenticity
I was born intersex and I didn't even know intersex existed until my 20s when my mom decided it would be a good time to finally tell me
@@chelmrtz Authenticity really is the word to describe what's the problem there.
Kudos to them for at least trying to broach the subject respectfully, even if it is ignorant, but it is ignorant because they didn't really use the resources available to them.
So the Orville episodes focusing on Topa's identity aren't an authentic look into the subject matter, it's the look from outsiders who, outside of this, wouldn't care at all or spend any time thinking on it.
I'm a funny outlier: I learned about intersex people in school at age 12. But I was never taught about anything else LGBTQ.
I know why they didn't mention intersex people.
Because an intersex person was not in the editing or writing rooms, and if they were then they were either not listened to or did not want to speak up for one reason or another.
If a non-intersex person brought it up but it didn't get added, I know why too.
Because it was either too controversial OR too "obvious" to the writers about the rightness or ambiguity of intersex infant surgeries.
But as we saw with the one alien too, some intersex people are not only fine with what happened to them but think that it's necessary for it to also happen to others only seeing it as a "mutation" or medical issue because of what they were taught to think about it, some think it was a good thing, some have self hate, and some just have carelessness to the rights to their own, and other ppl's autonomy, internalized from being told it was necessary. I just wanted to bring it up cause I noticed u worded it like all intersex people feel the same when that's unrealistic.
I think Occam's razor would say that simply none of the writers thought of it because everyone writing it either didn't know about the issue and or none have ever thought about those issues in that way seeing how similar it is.
@@hypnopompicfool985 What you say in your second paragraph, about how probably none of the writers knew about the issue, or thought about it in that way is exactly the reason why having diversity in writing rooms makes representation better - because you increase the chances of someone involved in the storytelling knowing about the issues, or having a perspective which will allow the story to come from a more informed position.
I think it's valuable to point out that no community is a monolith, as you have - and as Lily said when talking about the episodes, having the partner be someone who has had the gender conformity operation himself and have the perspective that it's important for that to happen to his child also actually makes the storyline more interesting and takes it away from being an interspecies cross cultural issue, where it's like the humans are trying to impost their values on the Mokkla.
It also amazes me that circumcision is still legal and common practice on infants on earth in whatever year the orville takes place in. So much for utopia. Because yeah the doctor who said she'd do a circumcision IS a hypocrite. preforming medically unneeded cosmetic surgery on an infant is insane.
@@paulhammond6978 There are not enough people with intersex conditions who are also writers to have that kind of diversity in writing rooms. I just ran the numbers, and there are at most 25 intersex television writers in all of America.
@@velaethia6 circumcision tends to be needes more then you think and any doctor will tell you the pros far outweigh the cons.
14:30 "You must hear the tale of Rudolph. You will RETHINK your conviction. I PROMISE YOU!!" is the single greatest sentence I have ever heard.
The first time I saw that I replayed just that line over and over for like 4 minutes and laughed hysterically, to the general annoyance of my sister
I'll be honest, I think the best way to look at the Topa arc is probably as an allegory, not only for intersex people or for trans people, but for intersex trans people specifically. Topa is born with sex characteristics that don't conform with her species' sex/gender boxes (well, box) and is forcibly altered to conform, to appear male. She then grows up and is expected to conform to the male box she was forcibly assigned to. She experiences what, I would argue, sounds a lot like gender dysphoria. It's then revealed to her that, actually, she wasn't born male, it's something she's being forced to conform to, both socially and medically. With support, she is able to transition and be herself.
It's still messy and, to be clear, I'm not convinced it was intentional on the part of the writers. They really could have benefitted from someone, idk, bringing up intersex people at least once. Still, I do think that understanding it in this light does make the message of the story arc seem a little less muddied. Then again, perhaps that was inevitable, given its nature as an allegory. I mean we're talking about an alien species with only one socially acceptable, normative, sex/gender, male. It makes sense that the story would, in a sense, inevitably have bits of trans, intersex, nonbinary, and even feminist themes all wrapped up together. I do wish they did a better job at, idk, sorting through them, but I guess that was left to the audience; for better or worse.
I mean they did have an episode where that Alara replacement dated a moclan man... that was top notch allegory with no room for doubt they were discussing homophobia.
Part of it is there is a lot of intersect between experiences of trans, intersex people as well as the gender-related biases such as misogyny. So it is unsurprising that all of that would sort of end up in a story attempting to allegory regarding it.
she didnt have gender dysphoria, as the species only has one gender.
Honestly I have struggled in the past watching lily, as honestly she sometimes is just very negative or overly critical FOR ME SPECIFICALLY to be clear.
I just find that, ultimately the message they were trying to send was clear and gets the point across at least decently well for a general audience. Lot of people got a somewhat okay view of a version of the trans experience, especially with the parents reactions. I find that that is what truly matters at the end of the day, the specifics and finer details aren’t as important as the intended message imo.
@@DellikkilleD Actually, it's clear that they have at least 2, it's just that only one is socially acceptable. Sort of like how, in our culture, there are only two accepted genders. Nonetheless, people who are non-binary, who are neither accepted gender, exist, and, for the record, many of them do have gender dysphoria. Theirs just looks different from what binary trans people experience. Topa's gender being outside her society's accepted gender box is one way in which she is a bit like non-binary people.
Regardless, I'm not saying that she actually has gender dysphoria, just that what she expresses sounds a lot like things a trans kid struggling with gender dysphoria might express before transitioning; feeling like there's something "wrong" with her, like the person she is is "incomplete," a "placeholder," or a "bookmark," suicidal ideation, saying "my body has been screaming to me that I am someone else" and that "I may appear to be male... but what is inside me still exists." On their own, they might not imply anything, but taken together, and in the context of, well, the episode where Topa literally transitions, they sure do paint an experience that sounds a lot like what gender dysphoria feels like, to me. You might not interpret it that way, that's fine. It's still an analogy after all.
Honestly gotta tell on myself here and say that I watched The Orville, really enjoyed Topa's story and never once realised any of the problems that you brought up in this video. It is a squandered opportunity for some genuine intersex representation, and while overall I think it really is trying its best to tell a positive trans story, it is far from perfect in ways that I now feel really dumb for missing. Thanks for laying it all out, great video as always!
You're not dumb! Critical analysis of media is a skill that takes practice, for anyone. And even if you're very good at it, that doesn't mean you're always applying a systematic critical lens to everything you engage with. Lily does excellent and insightful analysis, but that doesn't mean you're stupid for not picking up on this stuff on your watch! This is a skill she's clearly honed over time, and for videos like this I imagine she spends time really delving into the material with a critical lens and then planning how to present the analysis.
I have a grad degree in literary analysis, and while that analytical lens is usually present to some degree, it's not always at the forefront every time I watch/read something, and there is a lot of stuff I don't pick up on at first pass. I have to put in some more intentional effort to reflect on the media with a critical lens, if I want to develop some solid analytical insights about it. There are lots of times I've watched/read fiction, then watched/read others' analysis of the thing and found insights that had never crossed my mind at all. Even those of us who specialize in media/lit analysis can have shallow understandings of some media, because we're not always engaging that critical analysis eye intentionally and systematically.
Anyway, sorry for the rant! Haha. I just hate that people feel stupid for not getting deep analytical insights out of things right away. You aren't stupid!
There’s an episode of SVU where a young girl finds out she was born a boy and was given a reassignment operation after a particularly nasty circumcision accident, and decides she wants to transition back to being male, which I’d love to hear Lily do commentary on.
Which is based on the extremely infamous John Money and David Reimer case
RMAB
Reassigned Male At Birth
It's still just AMAB.
@@danidrinx7842
If you’re physically altering the person, it’s reassignment.
I remember watching the first episode and thinking it was an allegory to intersex people but was weird that they didn't mention it. "humans used to do something similar before we learned it was so harmful" was probably a good argument to bring up.
Also Klyden saying all kids are unhappy very much reminds me of my (probably autistic) mum telling me everyone feels that way and I'll grow out of it when I tried to explain how I was weird/different as a kid before I learned about autism and got diagnosed. It was her experience and she assumed it was universal, a lot of her family are likely autistic too so it probably seemed true within that context.
Dolly Parton as the Moclan women’s revolutionary Das Kapital feels correct
Talk about a champagne socialist, though, huh?
As far as I'm aware, the terminology you were looking for is CAMAB: Coercively Assigned Male at Birth.
In 2 topas it really hurt seeing her pain, because like she reached out to the one character she knew tried to "deactivate" himself, meaning she had those thoughts. Good on Isaac for going for help
You know, I didn't think of the confusion between transgender and intersex topics when I first saw these episodes myself. But definitely, compared to Seth's past works, it's definitely an improvement. Perfect? No, but far better than the 60-second vomit-a-thon of old. An E for effort.
I absolutely wanted to enter the military because i thought it would change my life in a positive way. However, none of the recruiters were happy that my major was going to be "theatre arts."
Speaking as a veteran: It was none of your recruiters business what major you were planning to study. But is does sound like your recruiter was part of the shrinking population of the military who who still buys into old fashion ideas of masculinity.
@@drizzmatec thanks for the insight! This was back in 1990-1991, shortly before Clinton and Don't Ask Don't Tell; Don't know if the rules have changed since then, but it was very short sighted on their part.
Timestamp 55:21 - The reason why Topa is still female beneath the male-veneer is NOT because Topa was born with female anatomy -- but rather, because the sex-change Topa had at birth was done without Topa’s consent for reasons that had nothing to do with Topa’s gender identity but instead was for the purpose of satisfying the meddling agendas of adults.
There _are_ real-live Topas. Surely you have heard of David Reimer. The reason David could not abide as female was not because he was born with a penis, but rather, because the decision to surgically alter him as a baby and raise him as a girl was to bolster the pet-theory of the unethical John Money. Oh - John Hopkins - always on the wrong side of gender history.
Agreed! I was going to comment specifically about Reimer as well. The story is often wielded by transphobes as evidence of an inherent link between gender and sex, when really it more so proves the ineffectiveness of conversion therapy, and the strength of gender dysphoria. I don't think anyone will argue over the fact that most people are cis, therefor, if you force transition a baby, there's a good chance they'll still be cis and "re-transition" later.
I do think though in the context that this was written AS a trans story, but involves manipulation at birth, both the line and plot as a whole get pretty muddied.
Right, when I first saw the episode, I actually took that as a rather pro-trans statement. That, no matter what Topa's body looks like, ultimately Topa's gender is determined by her internal sense of self, that is her gender identity, and despite their best efforts at medical intervention, forcibly changing that sense of self isn't possible. Like @cecilross2848 said, it shows how conversion therapy is ineffective.
The problem is that John Money is often presented by terfs as "the inventor of trans people".
It’s also worth pointing out that Reimer was a survivor of a “botched” circumcision, which opened the door for this unethical experiment. Yet, parents are always assured that circumcisions are 100 percent safe (while also signing a document acknowledging the opposite and promising not to sue if anything goes wrong). It’s a for-profit con, and even pointing out this simple fact will result in bad-faith accusations of anti-Semitism and Islamophobia.
Yep. I think it's more of an issue of imprecise wording than an actual problematic idea. Really, the same thing applies to trans people, especially trans kids- no matter how much you try to have them conform, their inner self will still remain. The Village by Wrabel comes to mind actually!
The Orville was a surprisingly good show. The Topa episodes start a bit rocky with the mixing of trans and intersex allegory, but they messaging does improve in later series. Ultimately the message that the show is driving at is a very positive one even if it doesn't map perfectly. It feels more like TNG or DS9 often more than modern Star Trek does. My expectations were low but I was pleasantly surprised. If anyone hasn't seen it, give it a shot. Just try not to let any Mcfarlane hang-ups colour your experience too much.
This was THE episode for me back when The Orville was new, as in the episode where i was fully settled in that I love this series. My personal favorite thing might the the fact that they lost; after all this hard work, time, and effort to keep Topa's original gender, they failed. I love that they don't just come Day One and change an entire species mind with "Protagonist power", The Moclans are a species that has existed for maybe countless years and may have been doing this for eons. They just aren't just gonna change their ways all because a small group of people want them too. It also invites future episodes on the topic
That's a good take. I feel like I saw the original episode when it first came out and had the opposite direction and didn't keep up. Albeit, it might have been one of the other things going on with Toppa's parents around their queerness that skeeved me out. In any case, if I had known they'd take it where they did, I think I'd have looked much more kindly on the series as I do think that even though it was on accident and messy and flawed, it does seem to depict the arc of a trans intersex person.
And even afterwards this leads to a BIG problem with the Moclans. It's a nice way of making something that could be treated as minor into something bigger.
I do genuinely think the orvile is a good show, and it clearly shows that Seth CAN be a good writer if he wants to; while its not well researched when it comes social issues, it clearly has a moral of creating an accommodating society as the baseline of progression, and I think thats admirable for the kind of network it was on
I think it might be good for you to know that with Family Guy and The Cleveland Show, that Seth McFarlane was not actually involved with a lot of the later seasons, he was a writer for the earlier seasons, and basically a lot of creators do take a step back after like 4 or 5 seasons. Trey Parker and Matt Stone are the rare exception to that rule. Like for eg Matt Groening of The Simpsons only really did write for the earlier seasons in the 90's.
So you cannot blame Seth McFarlane for the writing of the trans episodes of his shows especially not for the best written trans episode in a Seth McFarlane created show the American Dad episode cause that is the show he was the least involved in.
In fairness, researching these issue is an absolute nightmare because the arguments and terminology is in a constant state of flux and basically none of it is rationally coherent. I've been watching from the sidelines for 20 years, and I've discovered that if you ask any real questions, you just get called transphobic.
@@wolfofthewest8019I mean you just said that the terminology isn't rationally coherent. the fact that you just assume everyone else experiences this as you do or that it never comes to mind that perhaps people interpreted you as a transphobic person from the way you talked is saddening.
you mentioned it during the video, there's a House episode about an intersex child who experiences medical issues due to the fact that being intersex was hidden from them.
there's also an episode of House where a supermodel learns she's intersex when developing cancer.
Yeah she already did a whole episode on House
For me, this whole arc feels well-meaning but clumsy and a little meandering when it comes to its metaphors, so as a tribute to classic Star Trek, I think The Orville is a huge success.
"Don't start passing out penises yet captain borak"
I love this show, why is that quote so funny?
The magic is that it's the dumb fart joke guy but he's lowkey the biggest Star Trek nerd on earth and taking it seriously.
This serious unseriousness is like, my signature character flaw. Representation.
I wouldn't personally call McFarlane's love of Trek "lowkey", he was a regular on Star Trek Enterprise. That said, I absolutely love how the team pretty clearly wrote the first few episodes to be a Trojan horse. "See? Whacky space American Dad. Don't worry about it..." *three episodes later* "SUCK SHIT, FOX! IT'S ACTUALLY NEXT GENERATION SEASON SEVEN AND THERES NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT!"
@@SamuraiMujuru well you have to be a pretty big star trek nerd yourself to remember he's actually in some of it. Some third rate engineer who doesn't even have a creepy endearing parasocial addiction to holograms. NEERD
Anyway he's still somehow lowkey compared to vic mignogna
It feels like modern Star Trek is trying to be Star Wars, so it’s really nice to have a show that’s trying to be the Star Trek even Star Trek isn’t anymore
@@amberluppens3292 Yeah at some point they realized they should suck it up and make Strange New Worlds. A basically normal Star Trek, finally.
Something I thought kind of telling about the Toppa arc was the social media response that seemed to be a mix of both pro- and anti- trans comments each believing the episode represented their stance. The messages that got Liked by the show's account were pro- so I guess that's the angle they intended, but it's interesting that so many people read it the other way, either because of the mess of an analogy or because anti- voices don't actually know what they are talking about, or a mix of both I guess.
I have no idea how you would read those episodes to have an intentionally transphobic message.
@@OneEyeShadow unfortunately the concept of a society so misogynistic that they want to make girls into boys as soon as possible against their will, as ridiculous as it is, is exactly what terfs think our goal is. the emphasis on choice in these episodes makes it clear to *me* that it means to be pro-trans, but i feel like they chose a terrible metaphor to represent the issue
I think it's leaning more towards the latter. The episodes weren't super clear, especially early on, but the further you get the more mental gymnastics you have to do to read it as anti-trans. So eventually the only people likely to see it that way are anti-trans activists and people who get their information form them. Like, Isaac's line is pretty blatant.
Given the propensity of Right-Wingers who decry woke trek while proclaiming supposed interest in past trek....... I would go with the latter. Sometimes I wonder what shows these people were watching.... because it wasn't trek.
Conservatives do not have media literacy. It is basically a requirement to fall for the conservative ideology. You have to basically ignore that an episode or movie is outwardly and specifically critiquing you and your stances. Because otherwise, a TON of culture and art would either turn you away from conservative though, or you'd have to basically only watch PragerU or Daily Wire. And as much as conservatives simp those groups, they also know deep down that it is embarrassingly bad content with almost 0 redeeming qualities
A Tale of Two Toppas felt like the episode the series was building up to at that point. So many arcs culminate in this one episode from Toppa's forced "correction", to Klyden and Bortus's breakup, as well as a few smaller moments. One thing in particular was through the series they constantly teased Bortus singing so to finally get that moment in this episode alongside yet another incredible moment of Issac "humanity" as he defends his patient from her abusive father was an incredible payoff.
I love how Toppa feels like a main cast member for the rest of season 3 after this as well. She easily became my favorite character in just a handful of episodes and I can't wait to see more of her in season 4. They are going to have one hell of a tough time redeeming Klyden after all this shit though and I'm still sour at how easily Bortus took him back....
I feel as though bortus only took him back in for the sake of topa. You saw how angry and upset he was at klyden before, but still bit through it for the sake of topa. This feels more of the same. Where he saw how happy Topa was to see her other daddy again, and decided to put up with it.
@@TheKally He saw Klyden had changed, and his genuine remorse. There is a glorious acting moment as you see the tension drop out from Bortus as he realises, listening, that Klyden has indeed changed, and this no longer lies between them. Also, to be fair, Klyden does not want it to be magically okay again. His change is not yet done and he knows it.
I'm going to take this as a win because Seth seems to be transitioning his views from blatant transphobia to a more soft transphobia. Rome wasn't built in a day, I suppose.
Honestly Seth comes across more to me as a person who wants to support trans people but doesn’t understand how to be supportive
At least it’s progress
Interesting thing abt the 3rd leg allegory. It did happen once there was this guy in the 19th century Scottish Highlands who was born with an extra vestigial leg. His parents thought he was cursed so they kept him isolated, not allowing him to go to school or interact with his siblings. He eventually became a recluse wearing a large kilt to hide 'the thing'. Eventually some surgeons from Edinburgh found out abt him and convinced him to come in and have it removed which was fairly easy since it was mostly fatty tissue (tho it did have a non-functional urethra!). He survived without complications and went on to die of a uti some months later.
And the leg is on display in surgeons hall, Edinburgh its super grim.
1:19:36 the food i cooked did turn out good! Thanks!
But also thanks for spending so much of your time on a bunch of episodes of .... "they tried" genre of representation. It's frustrating to know someone had good intentions but still missed the mark in a completely fixable way.
Yup!! The intersex community even has a similar percentage as given for trans to the general population, but are ignored even more than us.... Seth doesn't have a brilliant track record for being ahead of the curve, tho....
I always thought the perfect way to make this actually a bit more of a trans allegory and perhaps to make up for McFarland's extremely transphobic past, would be for Kelly to note casually she was assigned male at birth. Obviously having a cis actress play a trans person isn't ideal but I feel like it would be far outweighed by showing the audience that in the future for humans it's become totally uncontroversial and make them confront why this should change their views of a character they've already connected with. Of course without trans writers or consultants that would probably not work great but because it's far in the future presumably well past any bigotry transphobia etc it wouldn't really alter how they wrote the character besides her perhaps having more knowledge of trans liberation history. Plus the idea of Seth MacFarlands love interest being trans delights me, though I'm sure he'd be unwilling to accept such a pitch.
Wait, is the Orville that show where transphobes thought it's transphobic but it's actually trans-supportive?
I think I heard Jessie Gender saying that, yes.
I dunno if it's THE show, but it is a show that applied to yes. It used a metaphor, so transphobes did their best to misunderstand it as they always do. Or well, anti-trans activists did their best, and less obsessive transphobes didn't know any better I guess.
I dunno the "planet of the female Moclans" story arc running through season 2 struck me as somewhat terfy.
@@n8chz Sure, if you ignore all the parts that contradict TERF rhetoric it seems kinda TERFy.
@@YumLemmingKebabsAdmittedly I haven't seen any of season 3
Star Trek The Next Generation has an episode called The Outsider that it's supposed to be a gay allegory, but it's accidentally a trans story
I feel this is what's happened here. they meant to make a trans allegory but hey did an intersex allegory instead
Funny story re: the military.
I was in the army, wife was in the AF (and a deeply closeted trans woman). We met in the military, her best friend in the AF was a trans woman, one of my favorite underlings was a trans man. Most of the trans people I know are veterans.
A few of the trans women vets I know have said they joined to "man up" and the trans men joined because it was a stereotypically male occupation.
There are a lot of flaws about the military and veteran care, but at least the VA facility we get treatment through is outstanding for trans healthcare. Mental healthcare not as mucb, but the clinic that handles trans care is awesome.
Having recently started that journey myself, it's actually genuinely fascinating how efficiently and cleanly the US Military handles it. It's actually even easier in the National Guard.
The fact that it gets treated in the system as just, 'this is fine, it's normal and you're in good hands, here's what we're going to do and we'll do everything we can to help you through this' is so gratifying, and shockingly comforting. And while in-unit situations are obviously going to be YMMV, the actual medical and leadership situation is handled with a dignity and grace that I was not expecting out of the same system that flubs so much.
I’m not sure if I’m giving Seth too much credit, but the conversation at 50:36 makes me think Klyden isn’t purposely being an abusive parent, necessarily. More so that, due to him being born female and having the surgery without his knowledge, HE grew up feeling unhappy but just bottled up those feelings by “getting over it” and he just assumes that all children are unhappy when growing up.
Alluding to a nice critique on the bigotry of the moclan society.
I don't need allegories to be direct 1:1 analogies, and I don't mind mixed metaphors in sci-fi, so I can excuse a lot of the lack of specificity in what human experiences it maps to at different points in the story. It's a bit of this, a bit of that, and a bit of the other thing. I do still think there are moments that were clumsy in their execution and words chosen, and I think there were elphants in the room that definitely could have been addressed, but ultimately I think it adds up to an emotionally effective and kind story, even if it does have its "boomer moments".
There was an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation that I watched the other day, which I believe inspired this storyline to a large extent. "The Outcast". I'd say that was clumsier. The Orville's Topa storyline feels like an evolution of that idea that doesn't quite reach perfection but does come closer to it. Both would have been helped by having human trans/nonbinary/intersex characters in them.
I’m glad you brought up circumcision (and also glad that MacFarlane didn’t try to deny it was a violation of bodily autonomy), but it’s worth pointing out that the “medical benefits” proponents tout fall into only two categories: scientifically dubious and scientifically baseless.
For example, proponents will claim it will reduce the chance of contracting and spreading HPV and reduce the chance of penile/cervical cancer in the child and their future partners. However, circumcised individuals can still contract and spread HPV, and said proponents will never bring up that the HPV vaccine and cervical screenings can accomplish this without subjecting an infant to traumatizing and irreversible surgery. In fact, Australia is on the verge of statistical elimination of cervical cancer using this strategy. (Penile cancer is exceptionally rare and never has been and likely never will be of public concern anywhere on earth.)
Another commonly touted benefit is that it will reduce the odds of the child contracting a UTI throughout their first year of life. They don’t mention that ritual circumcisions can have the opposite effect due to poor hygiene practices and wound care and that, even if that were true, UTIs are easily treatable with antibiotics and are rarely life-threatening.
The other major selling point is that it will make the child less likely to contract or spread HIV, which, just like the HPV argument, is a dubious claim. Even most proponents will admit there is no clinical evidence of this in regions of the world where HIV is not widespread.
In addition, the medical risks (including risks as serious as death and amputation) are rarely disclosed to parents. Other risks, such as severe scarring (which even the most experienced surgeon can’t always avoid), as well as tightness, discomfort and reduced sensation during sex, are also rarely disclosed and even callously dismissed by proponents.
It should also raise alarm bells that the most commonly cited justification is the AAP’s long-expired 2012 policy statement, which was heavily based on papers published by a molecular biologist and circumcision enthusiast named B.J. Morris (who has never conducted any direct studies of his own and has even suggested circumcision should be compulsory and that it’s comparable to vaccination).
If someone chooses to violate their child’s bodily autonomy and are using the aforementioned “medical benefits” as justification, they’ve not made an ethically or medically sound decision. These “medical benefits” are a fig leaf for forcing a parent’s cultural, religious or aesthetic preferences on their children.
I watched this show purely in anticipation for this video. One of my favorite aspects was watching Bortus become an absolute giga chad supportive father. He has the character arc that I wish Worf had properly gotten.
It's truly baffling how much TNG just really didn't want to do anything with Alexander and seemed to actively hate the idea of bringing him up or giving Worf real depth as a father after his introduction.
I couldn’t stand most Worf/Alexander episodes, because they just involved Worf being either neglectful or overbearing and Alexander lashing out. There was never any catharsis.
What's weird is that they absolutely had the opportunity to do a trans episode at one point. In one episode a Moclan comes on the ship and shows interest in a female member of the crew. This is bad because Moclans hate "straight" people for liking women just as much as they hate women.
The plot felt kind of redundant because it didn't break any new ground on Moclan customs and it didn't advance the relationship with Moclas and the Union in any way. It also feels pointless in that I doubt the shows viewers need to be told its okay to be gay. It's not the 90s-00s anymore.
What would have been poinent is if they encountered a "male" Moclan that was NOT born female, but wished to transition. I doubt they would have done this as they would think "we've already done a trans episode", but as you laid out thats not really the case.
Seeing Bortus go full on vengeful daddy when rescuing Topa was a sight to see.
The Orville is so underrated; I really wish it had gotten more seasons.
pls cover the intersex episode of Freaks & Geeks, I remember it being pretty decent
Yes!
I've been really looking forward to this one. As someone who's watched the Orville (and am commenting before watching this video), my take on the arc that's definitely going to be what this vid is examining is that it gets things a bit wrong from time-to-time, but its heart is clearly in the right place, and it's pretty clear they were working hard as they went on to course-correct based on ongoing feedback. I'll be interested to see if you see things the same way! :D
Have you ever thought of covering Klinger from MASH? As a kid I really loved him, as an adult I really like him. I know it’s not exactly a good representation of transness, but I think he’s a good character to cover from a trans perspective
Honestly Klinger as a character (bruh I’ve watched MASH all the way through so many times) is a great character to talk about for a discussion on the entire intersectionality of him as a person in that setting. Especially as the series goes on and it’s more normal to compliment Klinger’s outfit and ask where he got it or tell him he looks lovely to cheer him up and the entire troop being very defensive of him if anyone tries to be hurtful, and his arc of personality in response to those actions and attitudes. It’s all very good, and amazing for the time it was airing on television!
It's sad how these could have been such phenomenal pro-intersex episodes if the writers weren't so confused about the difference between being intersex and being transgender.
I remember watching this whole saga side by side on the couch with my violently transphobic father and brother. I spent the whole time wondering how they could continue to believe the things they did about trans people after seeing all that. I imagine they were thinking the exact same about me.
ABAB. Assigned Borg at Birth
It's not a Star Trek show if it doesn't have muddy metaphors about topical issues written by people who Heard about them on a talk show
The idea that the kid who had that forced sex change wants to join the military to fill a hole in their life is particularly interesting to me because of something I listened to once on a podcast for my anthropology class.
It's a podcast series called Gonads, about sex and gender, and in one of the first episodes they brought on an intersex person to talk about their experience being born intersex and having a gender assignment surgery without knowing about it for years and they mentioned joining the military and various other groups for a similar reason. I wonder if the writers took those kinds of experiences into consideration when writing that episode, or if it was just a happy accident, considering they never seemed to point out intersex experiences in the first installment of this saga.
I've been looking forward to you making this video for awhile now, and you nailed it, especially including commentary on the genocide in Gaza
That kinda made me wanna play mass effect-
Also, yeah, you did a great job summerizing all of that!!
as far as why the first episodes were so shakey on using the actual term intersex it is important to remeber that seasons 1 and 2 aired on FOX
New Horzions which released post pandemic was a Hulu exclusive (later brought to Disney +)
I'm sure Seth was so used to needing to keep his allegory vauge for the "FOX audiance" to get his messages through to them and part of that is seen in how he words stuff in New Horizions as well- I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt since we all know what kind of company FOX can be.
I think the true test of his growth will be season 4 as it will be far enough removed from his tenure with FOX that old writing habits should have died out by then.
Yeah, I've always gotten the impression that the first handful of episodes lean more heavily into the comedy to give fox a false sense of security before finally pulling the rug out to reveal that it was Next Generation season 7 all along.
Fox shows, including Seth's own shows, rarely agree with Fox News/Murdoch's ultraconservativism
You keep capitalizing Fox like FOX and I know it’s because that’s how Fox is written but I keep getting mentally Jumpscare by Fox being “shouted” at me
@@fizzyizzypop1300 i mean the company is scarier than any movie monster so they don't even need the jumpscares
I doubt there'll ever be a season four, especially with Seth MacFarlane refusing to let the show live outside him and him moving on to that creepy nightmare that is _Ted._
I had to do a doubletake at the end of the video when you wished me luck on the magic the gathering deck I was building... because that's what I was doing...
Pinkie Pie commander deck, I just need like 3 more cards.
Oh nice - have fun with making a party 🎈🎉
(I think that’s what the card says? My friend got theirs recently haha)
@@tkmry158 Yeah it's something about every card I play is a member of the psrtyz and for every card I play with a smile in it's artwork I get a treasure token. if theres typos it's because I just went to the eye doctor and can't read right now.
boosting cause I can't watch now but I don't want it to flop before I come back!! love you Lily! (in the appropriate way for a content consumer to love a content maker)
I was focusing way harder on what you were saying than what I was cooking.
Wowww it’s such a fresh video. I don’t normally catch them this quickly. What a treat.
me rn
Have to say this episode series likely hits differently now in light of Israel / Palestine and anti trans legislation.
Good video!
Thanks for hoping the game I was playing was going well, I really appreciated that LOL
DUDE I LOVE THIS SHOW very excited to hear you talk about it finally!! Its trans rep is very. Very interesting to say the least but actually has heartfelt moments that made me SO so emotional lol so very excited to see this!
I like your nuance and your distinctions between sex and gender in your analysis. You are very intelligent, thorough, witty, and engaging.
I mean I also wouldn’t tell my partner that my coworkers spent part of the day making someone physically fight me because of our culture.
my food came out quite fine, thank you for checking it!
1:19:30 my minecraft botanical garden is now nicely lit up, thank you
90 minutes is a truly just "a paragraph or two" lol
i was waitingggg for this episode!!!
sameee
I'm sorting through my Magic collection to get donate my bulk as I watch this
1:17:07 as a part of the lgbtqia+ I had no idea that those surgeries on intersex people happened. There are members of this community that are biased and/or lacks certain points of information. There could have been a single consultant that simply knew nothing of intersex, like I did before this video
It really feels like this story was a victim of the pulp sci-fi show tendency not to examine matters of gender and sexuality without putting some sort of wacky alien twist on it. In this case conflating trans and intersex struggles in a way eerily reminiscent of the way transphobes frame the story of David Reimer.
Reimer had his bodily autonomy violated twice: once when his infant circumcision resulted in amputation, and twice when his unethical doctor suggested sex reassignment was preferable to living life with said disfigurement. It’s almost like we shouldn’t be pushing cosmetic surgery of any kind of newborn children, but what do I know?
Well, my crochet project is going well, lol. Thank you for covering this. You helped point out where I thought some of it felt off. Overall I still enjoyed the effort they made with this, especially revisiting the story of the Moclans and Topa, in several episodes, and not just staying episodic like TNG for example. It's definitely not perfect, but I do appreciate the direction they were going, especially compared to Seth's older work. Also, that cat is awesome!
I always saw the connection to transgender issues in the first episode as a "incorrect" gender being assigned at birth based on societal norms in a way even bigots and biology Bros could understand, That's its downfall.
your spot on with the insane blind spot to intersex people, It's so glaring I think it might have been on purpose They didn't want to touch on it.
Editing wikis. Thanks for keeping me awake.
The call out at the end has me laughing (I’m playing a game, yes)
I love your content
I'm surprised you didn't break this up into three parts.
I would have watched all three
And I'm pretty sure completing the video helps your metrics
Pretty sure that not many people have talked about intersex surgeries before, so it honestly makes sense to compare it to something that's not connected to gender or sex, to not confuse the poor audience.
This could have been an opportunity for the show to explain that, as star trek and its -alikes tend to do. "In the far distant past of the 2020s, humans born as intersex would be given surgeries to fit in without their or even their parents consent...in our new progressive society we obviously do not do this."
@@carysbebard3690 oh. that's way better than avoiding the topic, you're right.
i have been waiting for this so bad :)
Great review Lily
Love you Lily thanks for making consistently fantastic content
I called this “dumb Strek Trek” at a party once, and I stand by that. I bet Seth does, too 😅
The Orville is one of the only shows I ever rage quit. It's messages are so clunky and ham-fisted. How many times do they have to repeat that judging people with a voting system is bad in that one Black Mirror ripoff episode? I couldn't finish the Holocaust allegory episode because, as a Jew directly descended from victims and survivors, I'm sick and tired of lazily written Holocaust allegories (thanks Supergirl for showing us a Holocaust with badly CGIed aliens). And the show isn't even funny. That first scene when the main characters meet was so awkward.
DS9 is really the only show that made a Holocaust allegory work but it's because it was foundational to the show and they explored the effects and complexities in depth. It's not the kind of topic you can just visit in one "very special episode"
Fair, I don't think most fans would begrudge you for any of that.
The third or fourth time they used their version of the prime directive to justify leaving a planet to continue commiting horrific crimes of humanity alone I quit the show.
It's basically the intersex episode and the trans episode in one.
Dead end paranormal park sometime?
So one of the big problems with The Orville is that Seth Mcfarlane apparently micromanages the writing of the show and, well, he isn't great on these topics. That's also, apparently, one of the reasons why the show is probably done and over with. It takes too long for him to actually write a season of TV (even super short Hulu seasons) so there's no feasible way to keep the entire cast on retainer while they wait for him.
Yeeees! I wanted to hear your take on this so bad!
Very possible that you won't see this, but I was thinking you could review some of the gender politics in Scrubs. I don't think there are any trans people in it outright, (though I swear I remember Dr. Kelso using the T-slur at some point, and I just cannot find the episode) but Dr. Cox consistently calls the main character by girls names, and refers to him as a woman.
It also has the frankly bizarre case of our cis protagonist having a canonical deadname, since his parents were expecting a girl, so they called him Joanna until he was THREE YEARS OLD.
I just feel like there's a lot to explore there in terms of perceived masculinity, but also how Dr. Cox remains so likeable, and otherwise incredibly liberal in spite of his treatment of J.D.
No pressure, though. Love your work.
1:19:36 called out, the food turned out great, and I really enjoyed your thoughtful analysis of the representation on this show.
It's very strange to hear the cartoon voice come out of a human face
As an intersex person, I was SO thankful you actually talked about the issues we've faced and continue to face. My mother didn't even get a choice in the matter, the doctors simply took it into their own hands. it's been a whole lot, dealing with that for all my life. Even if The Orville bungled the issue so very badly, I was very glad to hear you actually go into the matter that impacts a whole lot more people than many realize.
YOOOO YOU HIT 100K!?!? CONGRATS!!!
I still hope for a season 4
there is a big posiblity of it
I'm actually really happy that you mentioned intersex, I have never known about that.
Lol you called out the art work I working on. But also really liked your take on these episodes
I will be honest I do use your videos as background noise but at the same time, these are really awesome to listen to because I’m always interested in what your opinion is on certain medias in particular those who affect me as a trans person
I’m so glad to find a video like this. I watched all the Orville and liked it for the most part but I was really uncomfortable by the whole Topa topic. As a cis(ish) dude I really didn’t know if my misgivings about it were valid. Glad to know you had almost exactly the same opinions on it I did lol.
Yeah thanks my 2990th hour of Stellaris is going fairly well.
Good video.
You're the first person I've seen who brought up the intersex parallels! It's quite well done for something that wasn't planned.
Does this count as an accidental ally moment then? Like, you mention a couple moments that can be seen as anti trans, but not only have people related to Topa's troubles as being gender dysphoria, but the show accidentally expressed dislike for intersex babies without even realising it
As a game developer who listens to this channel while working, hearing "Hey, hope that game is going well" actually freaked me out for a moment. 😆
Thank you Lily!!!! I've never ran so quickly to a video. I've been hoping for months to see your take on this
Honestly I just think at least one of the writers in the room read Discworld at one point, read people pointing out how Female Dwarves in Discworld could be read as Trans (Because there is only one Gender and that's Dwarf so Female Dwarves have to transition and all, and reportedly Pratchett wasn't against that interpretation) and tried to recreate it here, except intentionally rather than incidentally.
I keep seeing Mizzix on your wall, and I'm finally dropping into the comments to say: Damn, nice taste in Commanders, comrade.