Race surfaces are always doomed to fail before the balls due purely to the overall surface area offered up for wear and tear. It must be noted that 'cup and cone' bearings, due to their serviceability, can be maintained to easily last 20-30 years which is a figure that 'cartridge' bearings can only dream of. A 'cone' will fail before a 'cup' due again to the surface area offered up for wear and tear. It must be noted that in this regard Shimano have always offered replacement cones for their hubs which, thus, further contributes to that 20-30 year lifespan.
@RollinRat thanks for sharing your experience. Cup & cone are pretty bombproof and simple. But they don't have enough bling for the modern high-zoot consumer!!! I was weighing my options between Chris King and Phil Wood rear tandem hubs. I had "blown up" three Hugi hubs and one LX (big surprise) on our mountain tandem. I happened to talk to Chris at Interbike and we discussed his aluminum ring drives. I expressed concern with the fact that the he used aluminum. Chris felt very confident that his aluminum ring drives would hold up to high off road tandem torque loads. After considerable consideration, I chose Phil Wood. Then I made my second attempt of the Slickrock trail. Shortly into the ride, we split the Phil hub shell in half. Bummer! They replaced it no charge. But I've since cracked subsequent pawls and the pawl housing, so they are still not quite meeting the durability our torque demands. King is my next choice (or perhaps Rohloff with a gates belt). But interestingly, I had noticed some time ago that King switched to stainless steel ring drives! I knew Al wasn't the ideal choice. A while back I ordered a used King hub service tool from someone on Ebay who included a bunch of extra King parts. Cool thing - he included a VERY worn pair of King aluminum ring drivces! So cool to have an actual piece of King history in the shop. Little did this Ebay seller realize I had discussed those very ring drives and their design with Chris so many years ago!
@RollinRat Yes, King's bearings (and products in general) are something to behold. As I mentioned elsewhere, I have a damaged R45 that I cut open to expose the internals. Endless amusement. Ha! No, just a couple who love climbing the steep and challenging stuff. But thanks. We even did a few laps on Whiskeydrunk's Whiskeydrome on it. Fun stuff! PS My Dad's partner was Phil Wood's doctor back in the day, before I was old enough to know what Phil was. Bummed I missed that possible connection. Also, I had a Phil BB in the 80's (before I even knew about the above) I needed help with. So I rode my bike down to their address and simply couldn't find them. Looking for a shiny, impressive corporate building, I poked my head into some grungy old shop and asked, "You know where Phil Wood is?" "You found us!" Ha!
@RollinRat The Whiskeydrome is a portable wooden-slat velodrome they bring to bike events (Pedalfest in Oakland). I think they're defunct now - or at least in limbo. Wish I had ridden the 'drome on my single as well. The tandem was more of a "I wonder if I actually can" type thing than being able to enjoy it. Grew up in Almaden. Pushed my Mongoose BMX up the hills in Quicksilver Park in the late 70's wondering "Why don't they put gears on these things?!" Shoulda built a mountain bike! Rode up Mt. Umunhum a lot. Great area. In the East Bay now. Good luck in Colorado. So jealous! Close to so much epic outdoor stuff - and Utah ain't far. Good luck with the torch! Lots of fun fab in your future :)
I had some cheap wheels with cup and cone bearing. Didn't service then at all for 4-5 years. The cones went, but I couldn't get replacements. I was frustrated that I couldn't get replacement parts, but fairly impressed with how long they lasted. I have two sets now. One dtswiss with cartridge and the other with shimano. I have more confidence in the cup and cone, but we'll see. I will start to service my shimano hubs.
In practice, my impression is that the guys using Shimano wheels or the more expensive Campagnolo (or Fulcrum) wheels with cup and cone bearings seem to have VERY little trouble with them. The modern ones are very easy to adjust with the wheel in place, and they seem to need very little maintenance. Campagnolo's cup and cone hubs have been the exact same design since the 1999 model Record hub that introduced the aluminium spindle and moved to 5/32" bearing balls, 15 per side, both front and rear. The hub shells are different wheel to wheel, for marketing purposes, but internally the only difference is that some wheels use ceramic balls, and some also ceramic bearing surfaces. These parts are all interchangeable. In 18 years of regular use, I never had any issues with these hubs. I never had to replace any parts. Meanwhile, my buddies seem to be busy getting new sets of cuntish shitbag bearings for their (insert brand here) wheels.
I love my old Campy Record hubs with 9 ball bearings and a cone. I overhaul them a few times a year....still super smooth...bought new in 1988 on Mavic MA40 rims
Thank You for an excellent explanation of ball bearings. You gave a great overview, but as you know it can get very complicated when the bearings are designed for a very specific use. In the last century, pre-2000, cartridge bearings in hubs and bottom bracket had contact seals and you could feel the drag and feel a wobble after extended use. High quality cup and cone bearings when properly adjusted felt lower in friction and with regular service gave great life. Campy used to sell replacement cups, cones and bearings(grade 25). You might want to explain bearing grades and how that affects bearing performance.
I used to change the cups & cones on my Campagnolo Record Mk1 hubs and was still using them up until the bike was stolen in 2012. Deep groove cartridge bearings are designed for HIGH SPEED applications (RPM's in the tens of thousands). Most pro riders won't get above 80 mph on alpine descents that equates to somewhere between 700-800 rpm which for a deep grooved cartridge bearing is SLOW! So at bike speeds they never warm up to normal running temp and therefore run slack.
+1 Jeff Daniels. That is my experience too. Shimano cup and cone bearings, with simple maintenance lasts lifetime. Only trouble I’ve had is CSB cartridge bearings in what was sold as “high end wheels” Maybe Shimano has a point!?
I thought this was really clear. (Very neutral for Hambini too!). I'm sure I am not the only person who runs destroyed cup/cone angular contact bearings with a little bit of excess play (bottom bracket especially) because I don't have a spare bottom bracket spindle. I wish I new better what causes the damage to the cones. It doesn't seem to matter what I do with bearing adjustment, the cones always show pitting first. One of the great things about radial bearings is that there is no preload setting to worry about. So for sure they will wear out, but at least you are unlikely to damage them during the initial installation.
I replace the bearings in my Race Face BSA BB with Enduro SS angular contact bearings. I put them in the Race Face cups. Right off they were smoother and after 4 months they are working smoothly. I did pop the crank out to see if there were signs of spinning in the cups as I just pressed them in, and there was non. So a $63 upgrade to a 2 year old BB. I'm happy.
Hi everybody, I have some experience to share with you. I hope in doing so maybe I can help the good and mechanically sound products not to disappear entirely from the market, which currently seems to be the trend. Actually I understand this is a hopeless endeavor but at least I’m doing what I can... Mr Hambini, in the end I have treat for you. :) I was working as a bike messenger in Stockholm Sweden for 7 years (but this was 10 years ago). This job really deals a lot of punishment to the bike, probably much more than most people would think. The first few years I trashed several bikes and especially a lot of wheels. Then I learned what works. This is my experience: Bear in mind, because of my professional history I might be overly focused on reliability, over characteristics needed for competition. However I want my bikes to be as fast as possible, just without sacrificing functionality. What works and is price competitive, is older Shimano LX, XT, XTR or similar quality race standard (105, Ultegra or DA). It has to be quality above Deore and it has to be steel or titanium axle 9/10mm. Unfortunately when Shimano introduced aluminium axles, they made the bearing balls smaller and thus decreased bearing life by more than 90% (I'm not exaggerating!). I could also detect fatigue damage on the aluminium axles, on steel or titanium axles I never saw that. Sadly, almost all of these good solid hubs seem to be discontinued. And for what, saving a few grams? What also works very well is Phil Wood hubs, if you can stand the weight and price. The Phil hub has very long lasting cartridge bearings that can be replaced and the hub itself will last FOREVER! They are absolutely bomb proof. I think in the aftermath of a nuclear war, mutant cockroaches will somehow move around on Phil Wood hubs… To summarize, my tip for long lasting hubs in demanding conditions, is above Shimano for gears and Phil Wood for high end SS/fixed. Beware though, to get good value out of older Shimano you have to have some knowledge about setup and maintenance, this is crucial. Factory build wheels might work for racing but not for messaging. I’ve tried a couple, and they both failed to scraps after only a couple of salty winter months. Carefully hand build wheels with 32 or 36 J bend spokes is the only wheels I trust. Finally for BB, square taper is the most long lasting and generally reliable BB standard. It is also very available and adaptable for chain line or clearance issues. Integrated systems might be stiffer and lighter but for hardwearing all weather workhorse bikes they are just no good. And I would never even try the press fit systems, for me they just scream trouble! So mr Hambini, if you actually red through all of my text. Maybe you with your great mechanical understanding and engineering skills could be inspired to make an in depth analysis on one or two square taper BB’s compared to modern integrated systems. To my knowledge the best cheap square taper BB option would be Shimano UN55 and the best high end option a Phil Wood BB. These BB’s are also very well known in this realm of the bike community. That would certainly be very interesting for the likes of me and I think a lot of touring people and hardcore commuters. Even if you did a three hour video on it I’d be sitting like glued to the computer sucking up knowledge. Maybe you’ll also see the light and then increase your business with some intelligently made square taper BB’s. :) Cheers everyone! /deswhip
Great one! Perhaps a little extra fact about probably Sweden's largest industrial pride, SKF, could be worth noting: "Assar Gabrielsson, SKF sales manager and Björn Prytz, Managing Director of SKF were the founders of Volvo AB in 1926. In the beginning, the company functioned as a subsidiary automobile company within the SKF group. SKF funded the production run of the first thousand cars, built at Hisingen in Gothenburg, beginning in 1927. SKF used one of the company's trademarked names: AB Volvo, which derives from the Latin "I roll", with its obvious connotations of bearings in motion."
I have a large bearing like that from an old mining town. So much fun to play with. That plus my Chris King R45 with cutouts, I can play with myself all day long!
If only a manufacturer would sell a bike that addressed all of the factors you discuss. Seems like most bikes do one element well and another terribly. Looking forward to seeing where you spent your money.
I know he's speaking English but this sounds like one of those classes I dropped illicitly in high school. lol Na, seriously - this is good stuff! Kudos to you sir and thanks for the valued information!
Best techo description of a bearing that I've heard. I've also used that same techo description. Good informative video that youtube suggested to me and because it was good and well presented I'll have a gander out your other videos and potentially/probably subscribe.
Excellent explanation. For clarity of younger viewers it would have been useful to show a proper cup-and -cone wheel bearing (say). I don't think any manufacturer still use cup and cone bottom bracket bearings. I think the reason Campagnolo and Shimano still use cup and cone bearings is that they can be adjusted for wear and give minimum friction due to being cage-less. I'm guessing that to accurately machine and grind the cup and cone in bearing quality steel and then assemble and adjust them would be more labor intensive and more expensive than banging in a couple of preparatory ball races in. Some National Time Trail champions I was lucky enough to ride with as a Junior, (in the early 1960's) used to polish their wheel bearings every week. They also polished their chains usually on a Saturday afternoon while watching sport on the BBC's Grandstand. They assembled the bearings dry in order to get the adjustment with just a hint of shake, then lubricate them with 3-in-one light machine oil. And as a keen youngster I did the same. Riding out on a silent Sunday morning you could hear each unloaded ball drop into place. That is if you could hear them above the rasp of your tubulars at 130 psi pressure on the tarmac. Happy days. Only criticism is I don't like the superfluous swearing.
with regards to bottom brackets, Wheels manufacturing sell angular contact cartridge bearings as an "upgrade" I've considered buying these, and this hambini video is part of my research.
Hey Sachin! Huge fan from Seattle. Could you please discus lubrication at length? I'd love to know what kind of grease I ought to put in my bearings and how much. Thanks!
Looking forward to this: cartridge bearings seem to be the norm on modern higher-end bikes, but I still chose to build mine using both. Going to be a good Saturday. :)
Rod Palm You are, of course, correct: press a loose ball bearing into a banana, and you will have a ”pressed in bearing”, possibly even a crude way of demonstrating what a prince albert is to a tipsy friend or two at the bar without being thrown out, but ultimately something that is not the same thing as a cartridge bearing. Your mileage may vary, of course. I take ’pressfit’ to just describe the way two objects are held together, or the interference fit that’s achieved when two objects of suitable shape and size are pressed together. And yes, neither of these objects have to have anything to do with a cartridge bearing. That having been said, whenever I open up my threaded BB and replace the bearings in the cups, I sure do pressfit new sealed cartridge bearings in there before I thread them back on. Maybe it’s a language thing? For me, a ’cartridge bearing’ simply denotes the metal thingamajig with all the races, bearings and seals contained within a single nifty enclosure, as opposed to e.g. loose cups, ball bearings and cones. The word can, of course, mean something completely different to you, but at least Google Image Search and Park Tool seem to be of the opinion that those pesky little donuts are used in modern bikes as well. If you have a bike with a pressfit bottom bracket that runs without cartridge bearings of any kind - more power to you! (Just as long as you’re not running lemmings in there.) And if you simply mixed up cup & cone bearings with cartridge ones in your comment - check out this small company called... erm, He-man...? Sheman? Shimano! Yeah, that was it, I think. Still producing hubs in 2019. Small little outfit. Cough. Steel bearings rolling on work-hardened steel cups, very little in the way of friction or seal drag when adjusted and lubed correctly, and seem to last well under all kinds of side loads. Easy to take apart, clean and maintain to boot. Old tech? For sure. Trendy? Hell no! But I prefer them in my wheels nonetheless. You might, of course have to lace a fresh hub once every decade or so, but I think it’s a fun exercise too. That’s WTH I’m talking about, thanks for asking politely. :)
In my orifice we have a never ending debate about preload for dg bb... SKF guidelines are somewhat arbitrary on the subject and empirical. In bike hubs we often see dg bb just locked on the inner races by tube spacers/shoulders with no preload. I guess this is to satisfy the people that say 'they spin up well' and are baffled by a spinning wheel with no load. I prefer hubs with angular contact or dg bb with some preload function. What's your view? The last set of tune hubs i bought, come with a selection of 100 micron shims to set preload. Nice touch.
Not particularly bike related but in pairing up angular contact bearing in say a machine spindle application, these bearings are mounted in various ways, i.e back to back, or face to face or a mixed triple etc. You've explained clearly that an acb is best used to deal with axial load and it does so by transfering forces occurring down the length of a shaft and therefore the bearing's inner race, through preload balls, and into the bearing's outter race and housing.....phew! But I have a drilling machine (think expensive drill press) that was given to me in pieces. It has paired angular contact bearings for the bottom of it's spindle. Now of course in this application, considering that an operator would necessarily be applying a heavy axial load via a lever upon the spindle, axial load is the main focus. But, if you wish to drill a nice 'round' hole, then radial accuracy must run a close second. So my question is, how are these bearings best paired? As I see it, if they are paired back to back in order to counter axial loads both down and up the spindle, the preload shims would need to be placed at opposite ends the paired bearings. But to my mind, the most support is being offered over the shotest length of spindle with a back to back arrangement and I therefore question how this would benefit radial accuracy? On the other hand, mounting the bearings face to face with preload shims between would 'seem', (once again to my mind) to offer a little more radial support by increasing the distance between the outter races? Then of course I could be over thinking because I just don't actually 'know', and perhaps the best option in this application is to ignore axial force up the spindle because load is low withdrawing a drill out of material, and don't worry about radial load....just because, and pair the bearings from the bottom of the spindle, face to back, with preload shims placed between and on top of the upper most bearing, thus both bearings then addressing axial force applied down the spindle only??? Have I even got the concept right? Forgive the pun, but as you can see, the pairing of acb's has me spinning in circles 😮
I think that cup and cone is easier to maintain and cheaper. Simpler tools to dismantle correctly. The only importent thing is to to tighten the cone just right. For this you need to secure the axle at one end to be able to gently adjust with cone spanners. It's not hard and once set up perfectly I think they perform better because there are less contacting surfaces compared to most cartridge designs and less friction. They clearly perform better in wheels that I have set up. I don't think cartridge bearings on wheels is a techical improvement at all and I think this is why Shimano and Campagnola didn't change to cartridges.
I recently serviced some 30 year old Shimano hubs. New bearings and one cone had to be replaced which was still available. These wheels now perform better than new and better than much newer cartridge bearing wheels which I have.
Excellent explanation! I'm doing a conversion on a giant drill press that I have to turn it into a light milling machine. The bearings that are in there are deep groove (6204Z and 6201Z), but a drill press mostly has axial load. A mill, though, will mostly have radial. In that case, am I better off replacing these with angular contact bearings (especially if I might still want to drill with it)? Preferably single or double row?
I've always been surprised no one uses a tapered cartridge bearing in a BB. Decades ago, Bullseye had a combination BB that used a needle bearing. There have been tapered needle bearing headsets. Angular contact can potentially be loaded up with more ball bearings, depending on if the radial bearing has a notch for loading. Can you talk about how bearings are assembled, why there is a limit on number of balls, and if notches are used? Cup and cone bearings, *good ones* like old campy bearings can use *much larger* balls and races than cartridge. If cup and cone bearings are made to the same standards and hardness of cartridge bearings, they are every bit as good. The cage also keeps the balls from accumulating all on one side so the *bearing actually comes apart!*
@@Steve-jo3cl Disc brakes have greater stopping power. What needs to be addressed is the effect of disc brakes vs rim brakes on time going up and back down a tour de france climb. It will be the effect of time savings on the way up vs time savings on the way down. With disc brakes you can stay off the brakes for longer and pass opponents on the way down the switchbacks. With each switchback and each hairpin turn you make time up on the descent. Watch the tour de france stage 19 of this year.
@RollinRat I believe disc brakes have a greater stopping power. Additionally breaking with calipers on carbon rims produces shit stopping force not to mention carbon rims in wet weather. There has not been sufficient investment in brake pad materials for carbon rims. Those blue pads are the best we got.
@RollinRat First up theres no need to get aggressive ! And secondly i couldnt agree with you more Dics brakes are just marketing bullshit to sell more bikes, in fact I believe disc brakes will cause more accidents, 90% of people out there be it a car, motorbike or push bike cannot operate brakes properly hence ABS because as soon as people get into a emergency braking situation what do they do ... Panic,Snatch the lever as hard as they can and lock that front wheel up.
@RollinRat I agree with everything you have just said, but when you start a reply with No Shit ! thats just being aggressive from the get go, instead of saying "No Shit" just say hey The Rant i disagree with you and back up your comment like you did, believe it or not I think we have a lot more in common than just our views on Disc Brakes ( which are marketing bullshit to sell more bike frames so bike companies make more money ) your obviously have a wealth of knowledge and experience and its fantastic that you want to share that with people so they dont make the same mistakes ( if only there was more people like ourselves maybe the world would be a better place ) Everyone is entilted to an opinion and to be able to share that opinion I just think your choice of words could of been better
Thanks Hambini, this was great! Over the years I've serviced lots of kids bikes and found that often the wheel cup and cone bearings are poorly set up from new, almost always over tightened. I've often wondered if the bearings are somewhat ruined almost immediately. A clean, re-grease and correct adjustment improves them significantly but I do wonder if the components were actually manufactured well, or whether it is just poor assembly of reasonably good parts.
RollinRat well said. Halfords assembled my new bike a few years ago. The bike was dangerous, As I quickly found out on the first ride when I held the back brake and the bike almost did a U-turn.
@RollinRat we're birds of a feather... The reality of kids bikes is that the additional cost of proper, loving assembly raises the cost beyond "being competitive." The American consumer is so obsessed with saving a dollar, they don't realize "you get what you pay for." And to be honest, it's hard to justify spending more money on something either outgrown quickly, abused, or lost/stolen. The reality is unfortunate. And lower price usually means more kids get to actually own and ride bikes, which is a good thing overall. But trust me, I get it. I just spent 10 hours rebuilding a resident's piss-poorly assembled Schwinn so it was safe and actually enjoyable to ride. Donated a lot of my time, but it was worth it to make it right.
@RollinRat Hi I worked for a bike company in the land of Kangaroos I saw frames for childrens bikes literally fall apart on the production line way scary I vowed to never buy that brand if i ever had a child. The frames were stuck together somewhere in asia lugged steel frames with terrible brazing back in the 80,s . I was riveting mudguard with a scary press keep those pinkies clear. Good quality childrens bikes are very much worth while , a rebuild repaint and good for many years of service if second hand . I volunteered at a place that taught people to rpair their own bikes.
@RollinRat Hi R R seeing a frame fall apart at the head tube on the production line and this was a 20 ich childrens bike scared me dangerous or what , I am glad that company is finished > I worked at a company making saftey equipment it had strict standards every thing had to be in spec or it would not function , As I have gotten older I appreciate things that are well engineered and made to last . apart from mal adjusted bearings what are some of the worst things you have seen in the bike repair industry ?.
@RollinRat That company reminds me of that Olivia Newton John musical Xana something . Glad you have a functioning conscience and would not be a part of it. How would you feel if years later you met someone permanently injured by a product failure , having integrity is worth more than a job like that , honour comes first you can be proud of your work then . Light stuff needs to be strong and durable simultaneously ,Light and weak is useless.
What bearings are you using Andrew? Bearings in my hope hubs last ages and I ride mtb in all weathers. Heard hope use INA bearings seem good compared with some I’ve used before
Click Bait yes where appropriate I’ve been using a thicker grease Mobil xhp 222 on outside of bearing seals to help waterproof them seems to work so far
@Click Bait And don't pay perfume prices for a degreaser that will just break down the surface tension between grease and water, turning everything into a rust coloured chili mayonaise-like emulsion....
My big question hasn‘t been answered by this presentation, that is: Is it better to use an angular contact bearing in a Bottom bracket than a radial one? Like Wheels manufacturing is promoting it? When i understood correctly, the AC bearing produces more friction - but can take axial loads better. So more friction is bad in the BB. But what about the axial load? How much axial load gets the BB, or in other words, what are the angles of load applied to the crank spindle and thus the bearings and what is their typical direction? Would have liked those questions to be answered. Strange to me that a „BB specialist“ like you are excluding especially this very important part?
I actually enjoy doing my cup and cone hubs. My biggest question is what bearings to get Chrome Steel, Carbon Steel or Stainless Steel or Ceramic Ball Bearings Si3N4 Silicon Nitride vs ZrO2 Zirconium Oxide. I have plenty of Chrome Steel G25 but thinking there is a better option what is your view?
There was a lack of perspective here on the hertzian stress involved. You said the angular have less stress, but does it matter? Bicycle bottom brackets don't see very much load I don't think compared to their rating, so the stress would be relatively low. Radial bearings become angular bearings when preloaded, so the matter to be decided is if it is worth it to endure the lower sealing ability and higher drag vs the lower stress and possibly longer race life, but I'd like to see the numbers. It seems to me that bearings fail in this application because of contamination and/or corrosion so sealing would be a priority.
Nitpicking: The radial bearing is symmetrical in relation to a line through the middle, the angular contact bearing is also symmetrical but in relation to a point in the middle ;)
I used to have shimano cup and cone and they always spun smoothly and lasted a long time. I adjusted often to keep play at bay. As mentioned often the preload is terrible on cup and cone.
I think this will be intresting for the review of how bearings designed for radial load vs axial load will "stack up" to each other. When and where is a good time to use each, and examples in the real world of larger environments and possibly smaller.
Logically, the front wheel is more prone to axial load. That is because the front of the bike is lighter than rear(with rider on). When the road is uneven and has many potholes, it is harder to keep the front wheel vertical. It moves side to side unvoluntary. The rear is more stable because of its weight, so mainly radial load is applied. When i changed my front wheel bearings to shimano's angular contact, my bike is more stable in that conditions, especially the front of my bike. This is more save and comfortable.
Great presentation very easy to understand and great analogy's! In the future could you give us your thoughts on lubricants for chains specifically waxing vs. synthetic lubes! Again thank you for your time and explaining things to us!
Good question. Indeed what kind of lubrication for any application or sort of bearing. Anyway if you mean bearings... Probably you mean the lubrication of chains.....?
Do you think you could add any solid engineering insight to the current thinking on chain waxing and efficiency / chainlines / etc? Seems like there's a lot of hype around it right now. I've been waxing my chain for a while and it's legit for keeping everything clean, but I'm not sure on the other claims that are spoken about...
submerging your chain in molten parrafin wax has been proven many times to have the best efficiency of any lube other than molten speedwax and specially treated wax/powder chains. There are marketing hype lube such as wend wax which do not work nearly as well due to the fact the insides of the chain are not properly lubricated. Fully cleaning then submerging the chain in molten wax is the only way.
@@albr4 There are friction tests in the internet showing the Molton wax/powder as the most efficiënt. But very close to it is Squirt wax. I always clean my chain after rides of 100 / 120 K + or after rain and dirt. Never sook it in gasoline etc. Just take the chain of by using a chain link. Just claning with a cloth, sometimes a bit of diesel on the cloth to clean the surface but not lettinbg this fluid get into the chain. Or using hot water with Dreft (dishwasher detergent). Then is necesssary brushing out the chain of dirty residue. Then wax well and make sure the fluid gets everywhere so also into the chain. After one hour clean the surplus of wax away and mount the chain again. Shimano Ultergra group and do between 8000 - 9000 km before replacing it. Using e.g. a KMC chain which metal is much harder will cause more wear on your sprockets and the advice is to use a Shimano chain if you have e.g. Shimano chainrings and sprockets. Before I used 2 chains, chaching them every time after n very dirty wheater rides or 500 K + dissamble it, clean in benzine, then hot water with Dreft. Better twice in very hot water with Dreft. Then using a compressor and drying it by using the air gun. Then cooking it in a Putoline Chainwax used in motocross. Then also removing the surplus on the outside. Y0ou get very little weart on the chain witg this method but have to ride always at least 50 K to get the chain in a optimum state. (most efficient usage, less friction) Of course again after the first ride you have to take away the residu of wax and dirt wich is accumulating on the chain. This cooking etc. is a lott of work and the methode with Squirt is much easier and almost the same result considering friction effeciency and chain protection.
Nicely explained Hambini. Could you discuss the aircaft spec "stepped bearings" which Whyte mtb bikes use on their suspension frames with the spacer washers in the assembley housing. loving the the techinal nomencalture of what a F#cked bearing is.
Great video, as usual! BTW: I'd like to propose two candidates for the engineering fuckwitism board: Canyon and Ceepo... just curious to know where they rank according to your orange opinion. Cheers!
Hey Hambini, thanks for another masterclass. What do you think about Coombe pedals? I am currently using Speedplay Zero system, because of walkable cleats and better cornering clearance (riding fixed gear crits) and precise adjustability, tho even under my 59kg their bearings go shite quite fast. I also wonder if Speedplay bearings (I bet quality of those are not far from zipp's lol) can be replaced with something better.
Great ! That is what I was looking for... Thanks for the explanation ! But one question still remains: orientation to mount angular bearings. I think the right way to mount it is the same orientation like shimano's cup and cone, right ? But I won't risk to "break" the bearing when removing it ? I mean, to remove it, I'll have to push it from the center (in to out). This force won't risk to dismantle the bearing itself ? Thanks !
No, there's a good argument for using angular contact bearings on ALL bikes! Plus, think of a fully rigid road bike with 28c tires at 120 psi bashing into/over/through a concrete or asphalt pothole versus a full suspension mountain bike's 2.3" tires at 15psi hitting much softer soil. The difference in conditions couldn't be larger. That said, it would be interested to measure peak forces endured in each scenario. Either way, all bikes benefit from angular contact bearings because of their larger contact areas and adjustability. Once play develops in a radial cartridge bearing, you pull and replace it. Not so with cup and cone and hubs like Chris King. Adjustability translates to longer life.
Great video thank you for sharing. Would you recommend ceramic bearings in a 1/8 buggy?the stock steel bearings keep going bad in my wheel hubs. They offer aluminum wheel hubs that might help the bearings from flexing around corners which would possibly help save bearings from wearing out. What are your thoughts? 1/8 scale arrma talion truggy 6s running on 4s most of time. Fast eddy bearings or jims bearings offer ceramic kits. I thought about searching each size separately to see cost. Thanks for your time
Seems that you alluded that the angle of the spokes create an axial load. I believe that the hub shell takes these loads and transfers them to a radial load. Of course any outside applied axial load applied to the wheel will transfer to the bearings. Good video. Your illustration of the section through the axial bearing depicts a symmetrical inner race. Shouldn't it be asymmetrical? Keep up the good work.
The section through the wheel uses two 6803 bearings which are a popular size for front wheels. They are symmetrical. The PowerPoint diagrams have both angular and radial with the asymmetrical sections
Thank you, I understood this much better..... So a cup and cone bearings for my headset and bottom bracket and a cartridge bearing for everything else? Only had to play it back once!
So factory set up with my 2017 Cannondale CAAD12 has a PF BB30, 4000 miles In the first year, and I’ve had it serviced twice for the dreaded CREAK, needs a third now. I don’t wash the bike, but do wipe it down, so the bearings are rarely subjected to water. Very hilly/mountainous area where we ride. I’m contemplating switching out to a Chris King BB that is angular contact. Reviews are good in terms of solving the creak. Will I notice the friction then in terms of watts? How much more likely then will service and/or replacement be needed? Stick with radial? Go Angular? Better Hambini BB solution?
Recently replaced my BB30 bearings for 7806. They had seals and the red seal faced to the inside of the BB. Was hoping to get longer life with them but we shall see after hearing they don't seal well.
On 12:26, where you resolving force to axial+radial. Did you mean the force from the spokes, or force, that wheel under different conditions (turning, etc) may produce? Because resting wheel will not put any force on bearings, except the weight of the wheel. For vertically resting wheel this will be only radial force.
If the balls have slightly different diameters and the cage prevents them from hitting each other due to the different travelling speeds in which the different sizes result - doesn‘t that mean that the cage makes the faster and slower than average sized balls skid? And what effect has that on the friction and on the wear of the races and the bearing as a whole?
Yes it does mean they are skidding. Since it is unavoidable (perfectly sized parts do not exist), I guess it is the best solution to the problem. The slip will only be a fracture of a percent which is much better than if the balls rubbed together, since that would essentially give you a slip of around 200%. I can imagine that the surface pressure between ball/race or ball/ball in these scenarios is comparable, so just letting them roll loosely and allowing them to contact each other would speed up wear and friction considerably.
Hi there. Great work, keep it up! I have a question. Since I cant upgrade the bearings in the Shimano pressfit bb-s, is there any benefits of upgrading my cheapo bb BB-RS500-PB to SM-BB92-41B?
At 12:16 you have two blue arrows showing force being applied to the upper part of the vbearings. Shouldn' these arrows be pointing at the lower part of the bearings? When weight (of the bike and rider) is applied from above, it's the lower part of the circle of the bearing that hold the weight up.
Hi Hambini in a roll down test same bike and rider and tyres etc how much faster are one type of bearings over another . Have you got a long hill handy and a stopwatch handy? I have seen tests for tyre pressure done this way to prove a point cheers .
Speaking of Shimano sticking with "old" style bearings. What do you think about some bike companies using threaded bbs instead of press fit? As always great vid
Good information, thank you. I have a concern with trying to convert a 6304 to a sealed tapered roller bearing. Is this possible? I can't seem to find the correct bearing online if it exists.
Why is the contact angle of the radial bearing not inline with the race, what's the advantage of a bias there? I didn't expect that with the symmetry. Great stuff, thanks for getting into the weeds!
What do you think about the SKF MTRX bearings? Sounds like the same idea as oilite bushes, lubricant suspended in porous material. What about servicing? Throw away when bad?
Is there available an angular contact bearing from a reputable manufacturer that would fit in a standard 30mm ID bottom bracket (30x42x7)? I've searched near and far and all I've come up with is the 7806C from NTN but it isn't sealed, and the Enduro offering.
Thanks for another well thought out and presented tutorial. Can you persuade Shimano to sell full service kits for the axial bearings? I don't understood the point of just replacing the cone, balls and axle (which is what they seem to sell) as the cup always looks as worn as the cone.
I have a guy that rides his mountain bike hard and frequently wears out his rear hubs. I would assume the fact he launches his bike a lot creates bearing issues, but would moving him to an angular contact bearing help with premature failure due to the heavy axial loads being put on a mtn rear hub? Otherwise, is it a 6 of one type situation?
![SAFEPLANET - ดาวเคราะห์ [ THE PLANET ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4X1XL3I_k3c/mqdefault.jpg)
Free information from a killer engineer. I love TH-cam.
Finally good engineering stuff without marketing shit
(applause)
BEST ENGINEER ON TH-cam !
Technical term it's f#cked !! Hahaha
Stoked to see you putting out so much great content recently Hambini. Looking forward to the new bike reveal.
Evo @hambini yes please show up proudly your New *Tifosi* Beast
th-cam.com/video/MaeQ6Wx3JAE/w-d-xo.html
Race surfaces are always doomed to fail before the balls due purely to the overall surface area offered up for wear and tear. It must be noted that 'cup and cone' bearings, due to their serviceability, can be maintained to easily last 20-30 years which is a figure that 'cartridge' bearings can only dream of. A 'cone' will fail before a 'cup' due again to the surface area offered up for wear and tear. It must be noted that in this regard Shimano have always offered replacement cones for their hubs which, thus, further contributes to that 20-30 year lifespan.
@RollinRat thanks for sharing your experience. Cup & cone are pretty bombproof and simple. But they don't have enough bling for the modern high-zoot consumer!!!
I was weighing my options between Chris King and Phil Wood rear tandem hubs. I had "blown up" three Hugi hubs and one LX (big surprise) on our mountain tandem. I happened to talk to Chris at Interbike and we discussed his aluminum ring drives. I expressed concern with the fact that the he used aluminum. Chris felt very confident that his aluminum ring drives would hold up to high off road tandem torque loads. After considerable consideration, I chose Phil Wood. Then I made my second attempt of the Slickrock trail. Shortly into the ride, we split the Phil hub shell in half. Bummer! They replaced it no charge. But I've since cracked subsequent pawls and the pawl housing, so they are still not quite meeting the durability our torque demands.
King is my next choice (or perhaps Rohloff with a gates belt). But interestingly, I had noticed some time ago that King switched to stainless steel ring drives! I knew Al wasn't the ideal choice.
A while back I ordered a used King hub service tool from someone on Ebay who included a bunch of extra King parts. Cool thing - he included a VERY worn pair of King aluminum ring drivces! So cool to have an actual piece of King history in the shop. Little did this Ebay seller realize I had discussed those very ring drives and their design with Chris so many years ago!
@RollinRat Yes, King's bearings (and products in general) are something to behold. As I mentioned elsewhere, I have a damaged R45 that I cut open to expose the internals. Endless amusement.
Ha! No, just a couple who love climbing the steep and challenging stuff. But thanks. We even did a few laps on Whiskeydrunk's Whiskeydrome on it. Fun stuff!
PS My Dad's partner was Phil Wood's doctor back in the day, before I was old enough to know what Phil was. Bummed I missed that possible connection. Also, I had a Phil BB in the 80's (before I even knew about the above) I needed help with. So I rode my bike down to their address and simply couldn't find them. Looking for a shiny, impressive corporate building, I poked my head into some grungy old shop and asked, "You know where Phil Wood is?"
"You found us!" Ha!
@RollinRat The Whiskeydrome is a portable wooden-slat velodrome they bring to bike events (Pedalfest in Oakland). I think they're defunct now - or at least in limbo. Wish I had ridden the 'drome on my single as well. The tandem was more of a "I wonder if I actually can" type thing than being able to enjoy it.
Grew up in Almaden. Pushed my Mongoose BMX up the hills in Quicksilver Park in the late 70's wondering "Why don't they put gears on these things?!" Shoulda built a mountain bike! Rode up Mt. Umunhum a lot. Great area. In the East Bay now.
Good luck in Colorado. So jealous! Close to so much epic outdoor stuff - and Utah ain't far. Good luck with the torch! Lots of fun fab in your future :)
I had some cheap wheels with cup and cone bearing. Didn't service then at all for 4-5 years. The cones went, but I couldn't get replacements. I was frustrated that I couldn't get replacement parts, but fairly impressed with how long they lasted. I have two sets now. One dtswiss with cartridge and the other with shimano. I have more confidence in the cup and cone, but we'll see. I will start to service my shimano hubs.
In practice, my impression is that the guys using Shimano wheels or the more expensive Campagnolo (or Fulcrum) wheels with cup and cone bearings seem to have VERY little trouble with them. The modern ones are very easy to adjust with the wheel in place, and they seem to need very little maintenance.
Campagnolo's cup and cone hubs have been the exact same design since the 1999 model Record hub that introduced the aluminium spindle and moved to 5/32" bearing balls, 15 per side, both front and rear. The hub shells are different wheel to wheel, for marketing purposes, but internally the only difference is that some wheels use ceramic balls, and some also ceramic bearing surfaces. These parts are all interchangeable.
In 18 years of regular use, I never had any issues with these hubs. I never had to replace any parts. Meanwhile, my buddies seem to be busy getting new sets of cuntish shitbag bearings for their (insert brand here) wheels.
I love my old Campy Record hubs with 9 ball bearings and a cone. I overhaul them a few times a year....still super smooth...bought new in 1988 on Mavic MA40 rims
Thank You for an excellent explanation of ball bearings. You gave a great overview, but as you know it can get very complicated when the bearings are designed for a very specific use. In the last century, pre-2000, cartridge bearings in hubs and bottom bracket had contact seals and you could feel the drag and feel a wobble after extended use. High quality cup and cone bearings when properly adjusted felt lower in friction and with regular service gave great life. Campy used to sell replacement cups, cones and bearings(grade 25). You might want to explain bearing grades and how that affects bearing performance.
I used to change the cups & cones on my Campagnolo Record Mk1 hubs and was still using them up until the bike was stolen in 2012.
Deep groove cartridge bearings are designed for HIGH SPEED applications (RPM's in the tens of thousands).
Most pro riders won't get above 80 mph on alpine descents that equates to somewhere between 700-800 rpm which for a deep grooved cartridge bearing is SLOW!
So at bike speeds they never warm up to normal running temp and therefore run slack.
+1 Jeff Daniels. That is my experience too. Shimano cup and cone bearings, with simple maintenance lasts lifetime. Only trouble I’ve had is CSB cartridge bearings in what was sold as “high end wheels” Maybe Shimano has a point!?
@@nigelnightmare4160 {
I realize it is kinda off topic but does anyone know of a good site to stream new movies online?
@Apollo Corbin flixportal xD
Your technical terminology is very easy to understand. LOL Another great video
You're the man, simply explained what's it all about.
I thought this was really clear. (Very neutral for Hambini too!). I'm sure I am not the only person who runs destroyed cup/cone angular contact bearings with a little bit of excess play (bottom bracket especially) because I don't have a spare bottom bracket spindle. I wish I new better what causes the damage to the cones. It doesn't seem to matter what I do with bearing adjustment, the cones always show pitting first. One of the great things about radial bearings is that there is no preload setting to worry about. So for sure they will wear out, but at least you are unlikely to damage them during the initial installation.
I replace the bearings in my Race Face BSA BB with Enduro SS angular contact bearings. I put them in the Race Face cups. Right off they were smoother and after 4 months they are working smoothly. I did pop the crank out to see if there were signs of spinning in the cups as I just pressed them in, and there was non. So a $63 upgrade to a 2 year old BB. I'm happy.
Hi everybody, I have some experience to share with you. I hope in doing so maybe I can help the good and mechanically sound products not to disappear entirely from the market, which currently seems to be the trend. Actually I understand this is a hopeless endeavor but at least I’m doing what I can...
Mr Hambini, in the end I have treat for you. :)
I was working as a bike messenger in Stockholm Sweden for 7 years (but this was 10 years ago). This job really deals a lot of punishment to the bike, probably much more than most people would think. The first few years I trashed several bikes and especially a lot of wheels. Then I learned what works. This is my experience:
Bear in mind, because of my professional history I might be overly focused on reliability, over characteristics needed for competition. However I want my bikes to be as fast as possible, just without sacrificing functionality.
What works and is price competitive, is older Shimano LX, XT, XTR or similar quality race standard (105, Ultegra or DA). It has to be quality above Deore and it has to be steel or titanium axle 9/10mm. Unfortunately when Shimano introduced aluminium axles, they made the bearing balls smaller and thus decreased bearing life by more than 90% (I'm not exaggerating!). I could also detect fatigue damage on the aluminium axles, on steel or titanium axles I never saw that.
Sadly, almost all of these good solid hubs seem to be discontinued. And for what, saving a few grams?
What also works very well is Phil Wood hubs, if you can stand the weight and price. The Phil hub has very long lasting cartridge bearings that can be replaced and the hub itself will last FOREVER! They are absolutely bomb proof. I think in the aftermath of a nuclear war, mutant cockroaches will somehow move around on Phil Wood hubs…
To summarize, my tip for long lasting hubs in demanding conditions, is above Shimano for gears and Phil Wood for high end SS/fixed. Beware though, to get good value out of older Shimano you have to have some knowledge about setup and maintenance, this is crucial.
Factory build wheels might work for racing but not for messaging. I’ve tried a couple, and they both failed to scraps after only a couple of salty winter months. Carefully hand build wheels with 32 or 36 J bend spokes is the only wheels I trust.
Finally for BB, square taper is the most long lasting and generally reliable BB standard. It is also very available and adaptable for chain line or clearance issues. Integrated systems might be stiffer and lighter but for hardwearing all weather workhorse bikes they are just no good. And I would never even try the press fit systems, for me they just scream trouble!
So mr Hambini, if you actually red through all of my text. Maybe you with your great mechanical understanding and engineering skills could be inspired to make an in depth analysis on one or two square taper BB’s compared to modern integrated systems. To my knowledge the best cheap square taper BB option would be Shimano UN55 and the best high end option a Phil Wood BB. These BB’s are also very well known in this realm of the bike community.
That would certainly be very interesting for the likes of me and I think a lot of touring people and hardcore commuters. Even if you did a three hour video on it I’d be sitting like glued to the computer sucking up knowledge.
Maybe you’ll also see the light and then increase your business with some intelligently made square taper BB’s. :)
Cheers everyone! /deswhip
Good video for anyone looking to understand basics of deep groove ball besring vs up and one. Cyclists would love this. Tks.
Great one! Perhaps a little extra fact about probably Sweden's largest industrial pride, SKF, could be worth noting:
"Assar Gabrielsson, SKF sales manager and Björn Prytz, Managing Director of SKF were the founders of Volvo AB in 1926. In the beginning, the company functioned as a subsidiary automobile company within the SKF group. SKF funded the production run of the first thousand cars, built at Hisingen in Gothenburg, beginning in 1927. SKF used one of the company's trademarked names: AB Volvo, which derives from the Latin "I roll", with its obvious connotations of bearings in motion."
I have a large bearing like that from an old mining town. So much fun to play with. That plus my Chris King R45 with cutouts, I can play with myself all day long!
If only a manufacturer would sell a bike that addressed all of the factors you discuss. Seems like most bikes do one element well and another terribly.
Looking forward to seeing where you spent your money.
Great info, thanks for the video. Not a cyclist, but still very widely applicable and well presented information. Cheers.
Great quick overview of bicycle bearings.
I know he's speaking English but this sounds like one of those classes I dropped illicitly in high school. lol Na, seriously - this is good stuff! Kudos to you sir and thanks for the valued information!
Best techo description of a bearing that I've heard. I've also used that same techo description. Good informative video that youtube suggested to me and because it was good and well presented I'll have a gander out your other videos and potentially/probably subscribe.
Alan H we are awaiting to see if you subscribe or not. After all it is a piece of your soul we are talking about.
I gave him a piece of my soul after watching another vid :D
“The headset bearings will never do 1 revolution in their entire life”
Sam Pilgrim has entered the chat
Dude and his friend see like fun at the pub.
we can offer the biclylce sprocket and chain ,dear
Excellent explanation. For clarity of younger viewers it would have been useful to show a proper cup-and -cone wheel bearing (say).
I don't think any manufacturer still use cup and cone bottom bracket bearings.
I think the reason Campagnolo and Shimano still use cup and cone bearings is that they can be adjusted for wear and give minimum friction due to being cage-less.
I'm guessing that to accurately machine and grind the cup and cone in bearing quality steel and then assemble and adjust them would be more labor intensive and more expensive than banging in a couple of preparatory ball races in.
Some National Time Trail champions I was lucky enough to ride with as a Junior, (in the early 1960's) used to polish their wheel bearings every week. They also polished their chains usually on a Saturday afternoon while watching sport on the BBC's Grandstand.
They assembled the bearings dry in order to get the adjustment with just a hint of shake, then lubricate them with 3-in-one light machine oil. And as a keen youngster I did the same. Riding out on a silent Sunday morning you could hear each unloaded ball drop into place. That is if you could hear them above the rasp of your tubulars at 130 psi pressure on the tarmac. Happy days.
Only criticism is I don't like the superfluous swearing.
with regards to bottom brackets, Wheels manufacturing sell angular contact cartridge bearings as an "upgrade" I've considered buying these, and this hambini video is part of my research.
Hey Sachin! Huge fan from Seattle. Could you please discus lubrication at length? I'd love to know what kind of grease I ought to put in my bearings and how much. Thanks!
Learnt so much about bearings! brilliant detail and explanations, keep it up hambini👍
Looking forward to this: cartridge bearings seem to be the norm on modern higher-end bikes, but I still chose to build mine using both. Going to be a good Saturday. :)
Cartridge bearings haven't been used since the 90's, WTH are you talking about? Pressed in bearings are not the same as cartridge bearings.
Rod Palm You are, of course, correct: press a loose ball bearing into a banana, and you will have a ”pressed in bearing”, possibly even a crude way of demonstrating what a prince albert is to a tipsy friend or two at the bar without being thrown out, but ultimately something that is not the same thing as a cartridge bearing. Your mileage may vary, of course.
I take ’pressfit’ to just describe the way two objects are held together, or the interference fit that’s achieved when two objects of suitable shape and size are pressed together. And yes, neither of these objects have to have anything to do with a cartridge bearing. That having been said, whenever I open up my threaded BB and replace the bearings in the cups, I sure do pressfit new sealed cartridge bearings in there before I thread them back on.
Maybe it’s a language thing?
For me, a ’cartridge bearing’ simply denotes the metal thingamajig with all the races, bearings and seals contained within a single nifty enclosure, as opposed to e.g. loose cups, ball bearings and cones. The word can, of course, mean something completely different to you, but at least Google Image Search and Park Tool seem to be of the opinion that those pesky little donuts are used in modern bikes as well. If you have a bike with a pressfit bottom bracket that runs without cartridge bearings of any kind - more power to you! (Just as long as you’re not running lemmings in there.)
And if you simply mixed up cup & cone bearings with cartridge ones in your comment - check out this small company called... erm, He-man...? Sheman? Shimano! Yeah, that was it, I think. Still producing hubs in 2019. Small little outfit. Cough. Steel bearings rolling on work-hardened steel cups, very little in the way of friction or seal drag when adjusted and lubed correctly, and seem to last well under all kinds of side loads. Easy to take apart, clean and maintain to boot. Old tech? For sure. Trendy? Hell no! But I prefer them in my wheels nonetheless. You might, of course have to lace a fresh hub once every decade or so, but I think it’s a fun exercise too.
That’s WTH I’m talking about, thanks for asking politely. :)
@@rodpalm6398 yea fuck you rod palm.
ඔබගේ පැහැදිලි කිරීමට ස්තුතියි.
This vlog was easy to understand, thanks!
I love when you get two or more bearing books out. Looking forward to this one!
Informative and entertaining as usual. Thank you.
Another Saturday night of science! Nerds unite!
In my orifice we have a never ending debate about preload for dg bb... SKF guidelines are somewhat arbitrary on the subject and empirical. In bike hubs we often see dg bb just locked on the inner races by tube spacers/shoulders with no preload. I guess this is to satisfy the people that say 'they spin up well' and are baffled by a spinning wheel with no load. I prefer hubs with angular contact or dg bb with some preload function. What's your view? The last set of tune hubs i bought, come with a selection of 100 micron shims to set preload. Nice touch.
Tune is garbage. TheDarkInstall will verify that.
@RollinRat Deep Groove Ball Bearing. Please try to keep up.
Not particularly bike related but in pairing up angular contact bearing in say a machine spindle application, these bearings are mounted in various ways, i.e back to back, or face to face or a mixed triple etc. You've explained clearly that an acb is best used to deal with axial load and it does so by transfering forces occurring down the length of a shaft and therefore the bearing's inner race, through preload balls, and into the bearing's outter race and housing.....phew!
But I have a drilling machine (think expensive drill press) that was given to me in pieces. It has paired angular contact bearings for the bottom of it's spindle. Now of course in this application, considering that an operator would necessarily be applying a heavy axial load via a lever upon the spindle, axial load is the main focus. But, if you wish to drill a nice 'round' hole, then radial accuracy must run a close second.
So my question is, how are these bearings best paired?
As I see it, if they are paired back to back in order to counter axial loads both down and up the spindle, the preload shims would need to be placed at opposite ends the paired bearings. But to my mind, the most support is being offered over the shotest length of spindle with a back to back arrangement and I therefore question how this would benefit radial accuracy?
On the other hand, mounting the bearings face to face with preload shims between would 'seem', (once again to my mind) to offer a little more radial support by increasing the distance between the outter races?
Then of course I could be over thinking because I just don't actually 'know', and perhaps the best option in this application is to ignore axial force up the spindle because load is low withdrawing a drill out of material, and don't worry about radial load....just because, and pair the bearings from the bottom of the spindle, face to back, with preload shims placed between and on top of the upper most bearing, thus both bearings then addressing axial force applied down the spindle only???
Have I even got the concept right? Forgive the pun, but as you can see, the pairing of acb's has me spinning in circles 😮
Another very helpful and informative video - thanks!
Just gets better and better!
I think that cup and cone is easier to maintain and cheaper. Simpler tools to dismantle correctly. The only importent thing is to to tighten the cone just right. For this you need to secure the axle at one end to be able to gently adjust with cone spanners. It's not hard and once set up perfectly I think they perform better because there are less contacting surfaces compared to most cartridge designs and less friction. They clearly perform better in wheels that I have set up.
I don't think cartridge bearings on wheels is a techical improvement at all and I think this is why Shimano and Campagnola didn't change to cartridges.
I recently serviced some 30 year old Shimano hubs. New bearings and one cone had to be replaced which was still available. These wheels now perform better than new and better than much newer cartridge bearing wheels which I have.
Interesting, down to earth and educational.
What's not to like?
Thank you
Thanks habini Nice video explaining the difference between the bearings👍🏻
Excellent explanation!
I'm doing a conversion on a giant drill press that I have to turn it into a light milling machine. The bearings that are in there are deep groove (6204Z and 6201Z), but a drill press mostly has axial load. A mill, though, will mostly have radial. In that case, am I better off replacing these with angular contact bearings (especially if I might still want to drill with it)? Preferably single or double row?
im here looking for the exact same answer
I've always been surprised no one uses a tapered cartridge bearing in a BB. Decades ago, Bullseye had a combination BB that used a needle bearing.
There have been tapered needle bearing headsets.
Angular contact can potentially be loaded up with more ball bearings, depending on if the radial bearing has a notch for loading.
Can you talk about how bearings are assembled, why there is a limit on number of balls, and if notches are used?
Cup and cone bearings, *good ones* like old campy bearings can use *much larger* balls and races than cartridge. If cup and cone bearings are made to the same standards and hardness of cartridge bearings, they are every bit as good.
The cage also keeps the balls from accumulating all on one side so the *bearing actually comes apart!*
Would love to see you do a video on Disc vs Rim brakes, from an aero perspective.
NOt just a aero persprective but performance perspective as well, Brakes are only as good as the person operating the lever
@@Steve-jo3cl Disc brakes have greater stopping power. What needs to be addressed is the effect of disc brakes vs rim brakes on time going up and back down a tour de france climb. It will be the effect of time savings on the way up vs time savings on the way down. With disc brakes you can stay off the brakes for longer and pass opponents on the way down the switchbacks. With each switchback and each hairpin turn you make time up on the descent. Watch the tour de france stage 19 of this year.
@RollinRat I believe disc brakes have a greater stopping power. Additionally breaking with calipers on carbon rims produces shit stopping force not to mention carbon rims in wet weather. There has not been sufficient investment in brake pad materials for carbon rims. Those blue pads are the best we got.
@RollinRat First up theres no need to get aggressive ! And secondly i couldnt agree with you more Dics brakes are just marketing bullshit to sell more bikes, in fact I believe disc brakes will cause more accidents, 90% of people out there be it a car, motorbike or push bike cannot operate brakes properly hence ABS because as soon as people get into a emergency braking situation what do they do ... Panic,Snatch the lever as hard as they can and lock that front wheel up.
@RollinRat I agree with everything you have just said, but when you start a reply with No Shit ! thats just being aggressive from the get go, instead of saying "No Shit" just say hey The Rant i disagree with you and back up your comment like you did, believe it or not I think we have a lot more in common than just our views on Disc Brakes ( which are marketing bullshit to sell more bike frames so bike companies make more money ) your obviously have a wealth of knowledge and experience and its fantastic that you want to share that with people so they dont make the same mistakes ( if only there was more people like ourselves maybe the world would be a better place ) Everyone is entilted to an opinion and to be able to share that opinion I just think your choice of words could of been better
Thanks Hambini, this was great! Over the years I've serviced lots of kids bikes and found that often the wheel cup and cone bearings are poorly set up from new, almost always over tightened. I've often wondered if the bearings are somewhat ruined almost immediately. A clean, re-grease and correct adjustment improves them significantly but I do wonder if the components were actually manufactured well, or whether it is just poor assembly of reasonably good parts.
RollinRat well said. Halfords assembled my new bike a few years ago. The bike was dangerous, As I quickly found out on the first ride when I held the back brake and the bike almost did a U-turn.
@RollinRat we're birds of a feather...
The reality of kids bikes is that the additional cost of proper, loving assembly raises the cost beyond "being competitive." The American consumer is so obsessed with saving a dollar, they don't realize "you get what you pay for." And to be honest, it's hard to justify spending more money on something either outgrown quickly, abused, or lost/stolen. The reality is unfortunate. And lower price usually means more kids get to actually own and ride bikes, which is a good thing overall.
But trust me, I get it. I just spent 10 hours rebuilding a resident's piss-poorly assembled Schwinn so it was safe and actually enjoyable to ride. Donated a lot of my time, but it was worth it to make it right.
@RollinRat Hi I worked for a bike company in the land of Kangaroos I saw frames for childrens bikes literally fall apart on the production line
way scary I vowed to never buy that brand if i ever had a child. The frames were stuck together somewhere in asia lugged steel frames with terrible brazing back in the 80,s .
I was riveting mudguard with a scary press keep those pinkies clear.
Good quality childrens bikes are very much worth while , a rebuild repaint and good for many years of service if second hand . I volunteered at a place that taught people to rpair their own bikes.
@RollinRat Hi R R seeing a frame fall apart at the head tube on the production line and this was a 20 ich childrens bike scared me dangerous or what , I am glad that company is finished > I worked at a company making saftey equipment it had strict standards every thing had to be in spec or it would not function , As I have gotten older I appreciate things that are well engineered and made to last . apart from mal adjusted bearings what are some of the worst things you have seen in the bike repair industry ?.
@RollinRat That company reminds me of that Olivia Newton John musical Xana something . Glad you have a functioning conscience and would not be a part of it. How would you feel if years later you met someone permanently injured by a product failure , having integrity is worth more than a job like that , honour comes first you can be proud of your work then .
Light stuff needs to be strong and durable simultaneously ,Light and weak is useless.
What are your thoughts on the new SKF MTRX bearings? I am mostly interested in bearings that last in wet and muddy conditions.
These are skf marine bearings in bike sizes. The technology is proven. The issue for road use is the drag
What bearings are you using Andrew? Bearings in my hope hubs last ages and I ride mtb in all weathers. Heard hope use INA bearings seem good compared with some I’ve used before
Click Bait yes where appropriate I’ve been using a thicker grease Mobil xhp 222 on outside of bearing seals to help waterproof them seems to work so far
@Click Bait And don't pay perfume prices for a degreaser that will just break down the surface tension between grease and water, turning everything into a rust coloured chili mayonaise-like emulsion....
My big question hasn‘t been answered by this presentation, that is: Is it better to use an angular contact bearing in a Bottom bracket than a radial one? Like Wheels manufacturing is promoting it? When i understood correctly, the AC bearing produces more friction - but can take axial loads better. So more friction is bad in the BB. But what about the axial load? How much axial load gets the BB, or in other words, what are the angles of load applied to the crank spindle and thus the bearings and what is their typical direction? Would have liked those questions to be answered. Strange to me that a „BB specialist“ like you are excluding especially this very important part?
I actually enjoy doing my cup and cone hubs. My biggest question is what bearings to get Chrome Steel, Carbon Steel or Stainless Steel or Ceramic Ball Bearings Si3N4 Silicon Nitride vs ZrO2 Zirconium Oxide. I have plenty of Chrome Steel G25 but thinking there is a better option what is your view?
There was a lack of perspective here on the hertzian stress involved. You said the angular have less stress, but does it matter? Bicycle bottom brackets don't see very much load I don't think compared to their rating, so the stress would be relatively low. Radial bearings become angular bearings when preloaded, so the matter to be decided is if it is worth it to endure the lower sealing ability and higher drag vs the lower stress and possibly longer race life, but I'd like to see the numbers. It seems to me that bearings fail in this application because of contamination and/or corrosion so sealing would be a priority.
Nitpicking: The radial bearing is symmetrical in relation to a line
through the middle, the angular contact bearing is also symmetrical but
in relation to a point in the middle ;)
Very good explanation of bearing makeup uses
I used to have shimano cup and cone and they always spun smoothly and lasted a long time. I adjusted often to keep play at bay. As mentioned often the preload is terrible on cup and cone.
I think this will be intresting for the review of how bearings designed for radial load vs axial load will "stack up" to each other. When and where is a good time to use each, and examples in the real world of larger environments and possibly smaller.
Logically, the front wheel is more prone to axial load. That is because the front of the bike is lighter than rear(with rider on). When the road is uneven and has many potholes, it is harder to keep the front wheel vertical. It moves side to side unvoluntary. The rear is more stable because of its weight, so mainly radial load is applied. When i changed my front wheel bearings to shimano's angular contact, my bike is more stable in that conditions, especially the front of my bike. This is more save and comfortable.
3:25 the exception is that most of the cheap bikes comes with the cup and cone stuff. At the lower end, which is the mass of the bikes are cup&cone.
Awesome, thank you for an excellent explanation. 👌🙏
Demystified that nicely. Thanks!
Great presentation very easy to understand and great analogy's! In the future could you give us your thoughts on lubricants for chains specifically waxing vs. synthetic lubes! Again thank you for your time and explaining things to us!
Good question. Indeed what kind of lubrication for any application or sort of bearing. Anyway if you mean bearings...
Probably you mean the lubrication of chains.....?
I'll add this to my growing list of requests.
@@bbqreunie984 yes thanks!
Do you think you could add any solid engineering insight to the current thinking on chain waxing and efficiency / chainlines / etc? Seems like there's a lot of hype around it right now. I've been waxing my chain for a while and it's legit for keeping everything clean, but I'm not sure on the other claims that are spoken about...
I can't add it to this vid because it has already been uploaded but I will look at it in the future.
@@Hambini Sure, that's what I meant mate. Just a suggestion for the future.
submerging your chain in molten parrafin wax has been proven many times to have the best efficiency of any lube other than molten speedwax and specially treated wax/powder chains. There are marketing hype lube such as wend wax which do not work nearly as well due to the fact the insides of the chain are not properly lubricated. Fully cleaning then submerging the chain in molten wax is the only way.
@@albr4 There are friction tests in the internet showing the Molton wax/powder as the most efficiënt. But very close to it is Squirt wax. I always clean my chain after rides of 100 / 120 K + or after rain and dirt. Never sook it in gasoline etc.
Just take the chain of by using a chain link.
Just claning with a cloth, sometimes a bit of diesel on the cloth to clean the surface but not lettinbg this fluid get into the chain. Or using hot water with Dreft (dishwasher detergent).
Then is necesssary brushing out the chain of dirty residue. Then wax well and make sure the fluid gets everywhere so also into the chain. After one hour clean the surplus of wax away and mount the chain again. Shimano Ultergra group and do between 8000 - 9000 km before replacing it.
Using e.g. a KMC chain which metal is much harder will cause more wear on your sprockets and the advice is to use a Shimano chain if you have e.g. Shimano chainrings and sprockets.
Before I used 2 chains, chaching them every time after n very dirty wheater rides or 500 K + dissamble it, clean in benzine, then hot water with Dreft. Better twice in very hot water with Dreft. Then using a compressor and drying it by using the air gun.
Then cooking it in a Putoline Chainwax used in motocross. Then also removing the surplus on the outside. Y0ou get very little weart on the chain witg this method but have to ride always at least 50 K to get the chain in a optimum state. (most efficient usage, less friction) Of course again after the first ride you have to take away the residu of wax and dirt wich is accumulating on the chain.
This cooking etc. is a lott of work and the methode with Squirt is much easier and almost the same result considering friction effeciency and chain protection.
@@albr4 100% correct good old candle wax (parrafin wax) and you cant go wrong
Nicely explained Hambini. Could you discuss the aircaft spec "stepped bearings" which Whyte mtb bikes use on their suspension frames with the spacer washers in the assembley housing. loving the the techinal nomencalture of what a F#cked bearing is.
I bet you are not allowed near the grinders at work! Thanks for getting to the crux of why shimano stick with the cup and cone....cost.
Great video, as usual!
BTW: I'd like to propose two candidates for the engineering fuckwitism board: Canyon and Ceepo... just curious to know where they rank according to your orange opinion. Cheers!
Hey Hambini, thanks for another masterclass. What do you think about Coombe pedals? I am currently using Speedplay Zero system, because of walkable cleats and better cornering clearance (riding fixed gear crits) and precise adjustability, tho even under my 59kg their bearings go shite quite fast. I also wonder if Speedplay bearings (I bet quality of those are not far from zipp's lol) can be replaced with something better.
Great ! That is what I was looking for... Thanks for the explanation ! But one question still remains: orientation to mount angular bearings. I think the right way to mount it is the same orientation like shimano's cup and cone, right ? But I won't risk to "break" the bearing when removing it ? I mean, to remove it, I'll have to push it from the center (in to out). This force won't risk to dismantle the bearing itself ? Thanks !
@hambini what do you think to SKF MTRX solid oil bearings?
I was wondering this too, given the coverage of the Cane Creek bottom brackets at Euro Bike this week.
Looking forward to this.
Very nice. Thanks you for your knowledge
Nice video. I know a decent amount about bearings ....... and I learned something here. sub'd
"This is used and the technical term for that is uhhhh Fucked" 🤣 didn't see that comeing
Great presentation
Thank you for the great video.
Do you think there is an argument for using angular contact bearings on mountain bike wheels given the greater axial loads?
No, there's a good argument for using angular contact bearings on ALL bikes! Plus, think of a fully rigid road bike with 28c tires at 120 psi bashing into/over/through a concrete or asphalt pothole versus a full suspension mountain bike's 2.3" tires at 15psi hitting much softer soil. The difference in conditions couldn't be larger. That said, it would be interested to measure peak forces endured in each scenario.
Either way, all bikes benefit from angular contact bearings because of their larger contact areas and adjustability. Once play develops in a radial cartridge bearing, you pull and replace it. Not so with cup and cone and hubs like Chris King. Adjustability translates to longer life.
Thanks, again learned something.
Great video thank you for sharing. Would you recommend ceramic bearings in a 1/8 buggy?the stock steel bearings keep going bad in my wheel hubs. They offer aluminum wheel hubs that might help the bearings from flexing around corners which would possibly help save bearings from wearing out. What are your thoughts? 1/8 scale arrma talion truggy 6s running on 4s most of time. Fast eddy bearings or jims bearings offer ceramic kits. I thought about searching each size separately to see cost. Thanks for your time
Seems that you alluded that the angle of the spokes create an axial load. I believe that the hub shell takes these loads and transfers them to a radial load. Of course any outside applied axial load applied to the wheel will transfer to the bearings. Good video. Your illustration of the section through the axial bearing depicts a symmetrical inner race. Shouldn't it be asymmetrical?
Keep up the good work.
The section through the wheel uses two 6803 bearings which are a popular size for front wheels. They are symmetrical. The PowerPoint diagrams have both angular and radial with the asymmetrical sections
great explanation
Thank you, I understood this much better..... So a cup and cone bearings for my headset and bottom bracket and a cartridge bearing for everything else? Only had to play it back once!
informative as ever.
This better than Blue Peter 👍
So factory set up with my 2017 Cannondale CAAD12 has a PF BB30, 4000 miles In the first year, and I’ve had it serviced twice for the dreaded CREAK, needs a third now. I don’t wash the bike, but do wipe it down, so the bearings are rarely subjected to water. Very hilly/mountainous area where we ride. I’m contemplating switching out to a Chris King BB that is angular contact. Reviews are good in terms of solving the creak. Will I notice the friction then in terms of watts? How much more likely then will service and/or replacement be needed? Stick with radial? Go Angular? Better Hambini BB solution?
Interesting as usual 👍
Recently replaced my BB30 bearings for 7806. They had seals and the red seal faced to the inside of the BB. Was hoping to get longer life with them but we shall see after hearing they don't seal well.
On 12:26, where you resolving force to axial+radial. Did you mean the force from the spokes, or force, that wheel under different conditions (turning, etc) may produce? Because resting wheel will not put any force on bearings, except the weight of the wheel. For vertically resting wheel this will be only radial force.
I know this is an older video. But for bmx racing would you recommend a bearing with fewer but bigger balls or more smalller balls?
what bearings do you recommend for the zipp 303 firecrest ? fairly difficult to source them
If the balls have slightly different diameters and the cage prevents them from hitting each other due to the different travelling speeds in which the different sizes result - doesn‘t that mean that the cage makes the faster and slower than average sized balls skid? And what effect has that on the friction and on the wear of the races and the bearing as a whole?
Yes it does mean they are skidding. Since it is unavoidable (perfectly sized parts do not exist), I guess it is the best solution to the problem.
The slip will only be a fracture of a percent which is much better than if the balls rubbed together, since that would essentially give you a slip of around 200%. I can imagine that the surface pressure between ball/race or ball/ball in these scenarios is comparable, so just letting them roll loosely and allowing them to contact each other would speed up wear and friction considerably.
Hi there. Great work, keep it up!
I have a question. Since I cant upgrade the bearings in the Shimano pressfit bb-s, is there any benefits of upgrading my cheapo bb BB-RS500-PB to SM-BB92-41B?
At 12:16 you have two blue arrows showing force being applied to the upper part of the vbearings. Shouldn' these arrows be pointing at the lower part of the bearings? When weight (of the bike and rider) is applied from above, it's the lower part of the circle of the bearing that hold the weight up.
Hi Hambini in a roll down test same bike and rider and tyres etc how much faster are one type of bearings over another . Have you got a long hill handy and a stopwatch handy? I have seen tests for tyre pressure done this way to prove a point cheers .
Speaking of Shimano sticking with "old" style bearings. What do you think about some bike companies using threaded bbs instead of press fit? As always great vid
Do a video on the relevance of hysteresis on bikes
I fear the village idiots will flame me!
Good information, thank you. I have a concern with trying to convert a 6304 to a sealed tapered roller bearing. Is this possible? I can't seem to find the correct bearing online if it exists.
Why is the contact angle of the radial bearing not inline with the race, what's the advantage of a bias there? I didn't expect that with the symmetry. Great stuff, thanks for getting into the weeds!
I finished the video 😬and it makes sense now. Cheers and thanks again!
I remember back in the late 80s, Kryptonics 70 mm skateboard wheels with either German or ntk cartridge bearings.
5argeTech /\ all I remember from 90s were abec bearing in my skateboard or rollerblade wheels
What do you think about the SKF MTRX bearings? Sounds like the same idea as oilite bushes, lubricant suspended in porous material. What about servicing? Throw away when bad?
hi hambini! great show! what's your take on placing bearing (not just bike cartridges, but any industrial bearing) by hitting it with a metal hammer?
Bad idea
put wheels eng angular contact bearings in my lynskey frame set, needed to be re adjusted after break in, now fine for thousands of miles
Is there available an angular contact bearing from a reputable manufacturer that would fit in a standard 30mm ID bottom bracket (30x42x7)? I've searched near and far and all I've come up with is the 7806C from NTN but it isn't sealed, and the Enduro offering.
Thanks for another well thought out and presented tutorial. Can you persuade Shimano to sell full service kits for the axial bearings? I don't understood the point of just replacing the cone, balls and axle (which is what they seem to sell) as the cup always looks as worn as the cone.
I think I have as much chance of persuading them as pinning diahorrhea to a wall
I have a guy that rides his mountain bike hard and frequently wears out his rear hubs. I would assume the fact he launches his bike a lot creates bearing issues, but would moving him to an angular contact bearing help with premature failure due to the heavy axial loads being put on a mtn rear hub? Otherwise, is it a 6 of one type situation?
@Hambini, I've asked this before, this time I promise I'll remember. What kind of pencil do you use here?
Kuru toga
What I wanted to know was which you thought were best in wheels..Angular or cartridge and why
12:42