Allan is totally a real doll! He was Ken's "friend" Also, I'm 45 and LOVE Heart Stopper. I think it's great kids have shows like this. This was of course NOT my childhood, but I love seeing it. My inner child is pleased. Also like you said, when I was growing up, gay representation meant dying of AIDS or getting hate crimed to death. I love happy gays in media, it's about time!
I mean, I didn’t have the ‘Heartstopper’ experience in school but I really loved it. Of course I lament the lack of queer people in school but I lapped up the sweet energy.
I couldn’t relate to Heartstopper either but that made me love it so much more. It makes me really emotional because it’s the youth I dreamed of having. There was only 1 openly gay guy at my school, 1 bisexual girl, 0 lesbians. So there was so queer friendship group for me. HS’s kinda unrealistic but I think that’s the point! It’s good to show healthy queer relationships for kids, which is something that you rarely ever get for young boys. My inner child is healing ❤️🩹
I don’t think heartstopper is supposed to be relatable in that regard. What makes heartstopper good is it’s an escape from the generally dull reality of being queer in school and more about what a bright future for queer people would look like. What I love about Heartstopper too is it’s a break from really dull gay tragedy’s, it’s a love letter to us and displays EVERY aspect of the LGBT community in a much more positive and hopeful light and celebrates people’s uniqueness, it’s a very heartwarming series which we don’t see often in queer media because of movies like Brokeback mountain setting the standard for queer TV as tragic, it’s a great change of pace
Allan was an actual doll from Mattel. The tagline was something about him being Ken’s ‘friend’ and basically fitting into Ken’s clothes. It has homosocial and homosexual readings.
I'm in my 50s and I love Heartstopper and don't find the ages of the characters a barrier to their relatability at all. I just enjoyed watching them overcome their struggles and be happy together.
The podcast caters to a very specific group of people: cis-gendered gay men in their thirties who came out later in life and have access to resources. They often discuss their personal experiences and viewpoints but tend to overlook those who don't fit their demographics. In addition, they can be unintendedly dismissive towards gay men who came out in the 80s and 90s and do not have traditional views on relationships or sexuality. This leaves little room for a diverse range of perspectives and can be hurtful to those who don't fit their narrow target audience. They examine issues at a surface level without regard for queer history or context. Referring to queer cinema from 80’s, 90’s and 00’s as a “Misery Fest” is dismissive to us who would lived through threw AIDS crisis of the 80’s and 90’s, risking everything and our lives to come out to drive queer rights and HIV research. We needed the cathartic release of The Boys in The Band, Torch Song Trilogy, Jeffrey, and Longtime Companion. Then, completely ignoring more upbeat movies of the times, Billy's Hollywood Screen Kiss, La Cage aux Folles, and The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. Unfortunately, queer cinema is a straightforward topic to look up and does not require much time. There are great retrospectives like The Celluloid Closet book and documentary. I have to ask myself why the Gay Community needs redefining. Queer culture is always in flux and expanding to include more types of people. When they empower gay men to live happy and healthy lives, they focus on the rules and advice that worked for them. If you are looking for a podcast about queer theory and culture, queer history, interpersonal introspection, and working on radical empathy, there are much better podcasts.
Congratulations on Season 2 and what a fantastic way to kick things off, and it's worth celebrating the diverse and complex landscape of queer storytelling that we're fortunate to have today. This rich tapestry of narratives challenges the misconception that the queer community is a monolith. In truth, we are wonderfully multi-dimensional, with a range of virtues and flaws, and our experiences within our own community can be vastly different. It's vital that we acknowledge and embrace this diversity among ourselves. Recently, I heard a queer man on a popular call-in radio show sharing his own unique experience, one devoid of any encounters with homophobia. However, his commentary took an unfortunate turn towards victim-blaming, suggesting that certain behaviours or mannerisms invite prejudice. Thus the increase in queer/gay bashing. As a young boy (early teens), I immersed myself in every queer-themed movie, short film, or story I could find, driven by a deep desire to understand the culture and the people I was connected to. Sadly, much of what I encountered left me feeling despondent, as it often painted a bleak picture of our future-harrowing battles against AIDS, the torment of bullying or drug abuse, and the tragic end of existence. Love seemed like a distant fantasy, undeserved in my eyes. I believed that my only chance at momentary love or validation rested on achieving an idealized, 'Ken doll' appearance, with casual and frequent sexual encounters becoming central to my sense of queerness. Our traumas were portrayed as a constant exhibit, and I absorbed this damaging narrative. Thankfully, in more recent times, I've found solace in stories like "Heartstopper," and reveled in the light-hearted joy of "RW&RB" (because we all deserve some silly, fun, rom-coms in our lives). Shows like "Love Victor," "Euphoria," "Pose," "Sex Education," "Special," "Elite," and many others have enriched my understanding of my own queer experiences. Some of these narratives are profoundly moving and educational, while others simply entertain, and that's perfectly fine. What truly matters is that our storytelling continues to be diverse, exposing us to the myriad facets of queer lives, helping us understand that our community is as beautifully complex as humanity itself. I guess I had a lot to say, sorry.
Its nice to see you guys back. but I admit I disagreed with a few points... Re Heartstopper: Being a 40 year old gay man, I love heart stopper, and I guess I qualify as a more masc guy, as far as such things are accurate. I tend to gravitate towards more masculine things. BUt what drew me to heartstopper was that its everythign I WISH I had had growing up. There weren't gay people on TV until I was in college, and I def didn't Identify with Will or Jack, so it was hard to relate to such characatures. What I love about Heartstopper is its unabashed queerness and its not buying into stereotypes, its just letting people find themself and express that. I woudl have loved to been able to ask a boy on a date or go to a dance, secretly or publicly. Let alone be on a school trip with a boyfriend! Maybe its a bit of a vicarious experience for me, but there it is. I enjoy it because I feel like its how I wanted my life to go, and it didnt. re Straight Actors playing Gay roles: In general, I support the best actor for the part playing the part, regardless of orientation/sexuality, as long as its authentic and real. The two leads of RW&RB are a perfect example of this. They both provide real in depth queer characters and they two men are respectful to the entire process and performance. However then you get James Corden in The Prom... and that was a clusterfuck to put it lightly. The BIG ISSUE with this subject is that when straight actors get LAUDED for telling queer stories, awards, salaries, etc, they often IGNORE the actual community. For decades queer actors have been FORCED to remain in the closet to keep their careers. Look at Rock Hudson, or Colton Haynes, who is a much more recent victim of the holywood machine, and yet these straight actors get all the "fame and glory" for being brave enough to PLAY a gay role, while gay actors are forced not to live an open queer life. Its about a double standard. Holywood and straight actors have been banking off queer/gay stories and histories for decades now, and giving very little back to the community. Same for the Black COmmunity, same for Women. the list goes on. Its tricky, btu YES a talented capable actor should be able to play any role, that is their job. But seeing our community represented by ACTUAL members of the community is so much more meaningful than seeing a big name celeb do it for audience draw.
Congrats on season two🎉 i’m 36 and I watched heartstopper and I really enjoyed it. I didn’t have the same experience when I was at school, but I light the positive representation of queer people. I also watch red, white and royal blue. It’s a bit more mature, but I really enjoyed it too. I think it’s on your taste. I love gay romance in general, so I loved it all.🌈❤️
When I was a kid, there was no representation at all or very rarely and uglily. Then when I was teenager I was dark, chaotic representation, then it was HIV, then it was tragic, then queer batting kind of shows. So it's recently with Shadowhunters, 2016, then Love Victor, Heartstopper, and finally RWRB that I'm confortable watching gays on TV. Love it absolutely. In its heydays QAF was a big thing but it was caricatural, harsh at time.
So happy you guys are back, and with a great first episode! In regards to Heartstopper, as a straight middle-aged lady I am definitely not the target audience, but I adore that show (and the books) so much! It's just a warm hug of joy and kind of aspirational (bullying and Charlie's mental health aside). I've seen a lot of older queer people comment that the show makes them kind of sad or jealous that that wasn't their teen/school experience, and I'm sure the happy romance and big queer friend group still isn't the experience for a lot of queer youth, but I love that the show presents it as a possibility and it's a world I hope we can get to.
A suggestion to you guys. I'm sure you wouldn't be scared off by subtitled movies but there's a French movie out at present called in English "Lie With Me" (a pretty inaccurate translation of the original "Arrete Avec Tes Mensonges", but never mind). It is so well handled and everyone I know who has seen it loved it. I'd recommend it even to straight people.
Love seeing you beaming boys, again! Welcome back! ;) Such a positive vibe. Keep the episodes rolling! I enjoy being old enough (and out long enough) to have *literally* watched the unfolding and evolving of gay representation in film & TV become what it is today. From that moment, all those years ago, I sat sobbing watching BROKE BACK MOUNTAIN (months before I came out) to recently seeing OF AN AGE (brilliant, btw) and trying to explain to my loving, hetero friends: “Imagine would it would feel like if we swapped shoes: try going 30+ years and never seeing YOUR type of relationship in media… and then, one day, it’s there - BIG. In technicolor. And you genuinely *feel* being seen; you feel normal.” We’ve watched hetero relationships our entire lives. We’ve postured and positioned ourselves around them. So, I’m all for getting more stories out - more nuance, more reality, more honesty, more humor - of what it means to be *Happy Healthy Homos.* ;) Love you boys! Keep adding light!
I’m an old so certainly didn’t have the Heartstopper experience. It was illegal here in Canada when I was realizing who I was. But I loved the hopefulness of Heartstopper and it made me wish I had had that kind of experience.
I know this is a late comment on this video, but i definitely recommend you guys to watch BL (Boys Love) shows from Thai, Japan, or Korea. They have lots more queer love representation. Although they are mostly target towards women, but some shows lately are much more targeted towards the lgbt. They have some heartwarming content like HS or a bit more mature like RWRB.
In red,white and royal blue it wasn't a scene you have seen in many films except porn and maybe queer as folk so it was a surprise but not shocking to me it should be shown. As a straight woman these podcasts are brilliant and so needed in today's world xx
If you're recommending gay films, I recommend "Jeffrey ". It's a 90s or early 2000s comedy with a viewpoint about how the AIDS crisis affects love and relationships among the gay community members. (It's also cool due to the many cameos by well known actors, and the camp performance by Patrick Stewart).
You guys are totally in your stride and it shows . It’s great you have such a great robust relationship together but also keep your own personalities. Looking forward to every episode ❤
I don’t think you necessarily have to relate but you can appreciate that a new generation of gay will have what we didn’t. All I saw growing up was a hyper-feminized or sexualized gay character which I am neither but it sets a standard of what society expects from a gay man & every time I had to come out I’d get “oh really? You’re so normal! I wouldn’t have guessed.” Like what does that mean?
you guys touched on this a bit but I totally agree with liking that sort of "hallmark" feeling for a gay couple. I think older generations, like those who grew up in the AIDS epidemic, still kind of associate queerness with angst and drama. Of course I think modern works that still explore these topics are valid, but its always refreshing to see representation with no pretenses of feeling "edgy" or what have you.
Thanks guys for having respectful gay conversations about things (Barbie & RWRB) and exploring the ways we react somewhat differently among ourselves…we appreciate your exploring things we are thinking in open respectful “real” ways..it’s easy to ..love..you guys & what you are doing!
Even though I didn't relate to any of the characters in Heartstopper, I am not the target audience. My daughters are (15 yr old twins). They were big fans of the comic long before the tv show. I love that it is available to them and I can share it with them. It not only addresses lgbtqa but also delves into mental heath, cutting, eating disorders (mainly season 3) in a way that is honest yet hopeful that everything will be alright.
This was a nice soft landing into Szn 2‼️ This was a great discussion about positive representation of gay characters in media present and past. Queer As Folk, The Real L Word, Looking, Please Like Me, Special, Single All The Way, and now BROS are my favorite mainstream gay series and movies. Joel, I appreciate this positive change in your on-screen presence. You seem alot more energetic than you did last szn. I hope you keep that same energy going forward. No notes for Keegs 😂 Also, I hope we can get longer episodes in the future 🤞🏾 Thanks Boys for a great start to my Wednesday. Welcome Back‼️
Hi guys. Really enjoyed this week’s episode on queer representation in the media. At the end of the day actors are people who play let’s pretend and get paid for it. To be able to play straight or gay ( if they are straight) should not be judged. Most straight actors don’t play gay to make fun of gays they often down play them ( Will in Will and Grace ). It is I think sad that many actors such as Rock Hudson and Richard Chamberlain had to hide their gay identity to protect their careers and the Studios reputations. It can only be a good thing though that given more and more people entering the profession identifying on the queer spectrum they should be given the chance to play characters they can identify with. Russell T Davis is amazing at doing this. I am not gay but I enjoy watching comedies and dramas like his because they can teach us how to be more tolerant of one another . Oh and if you haven’t watched Smiley a Spanish gay comedy ( dubbed in English ) you should it’s definitely worth a watch.
Instead of Helpful Homos, you should call it “Ask Jeegs”, like a play on the old “Ask Jeeves”. 🙂 Love that you’re back, can’t wait for the rest of Season 2! ❤
Hi guys. Great episode as always with good topics. Just thought I'd let you know there's a very slight lag between the video and the audio, the video seems to be lagging behind the audio ever so slightly. Could be my internet but all other youtube videos I've watched are fine so it could be a technical issue with the upload. Has anyone else experienced this? Also the audio is very quiet even with my volume turned right up, when adverts come on I have to turn it down because they're so loud.
Only about halfway through but, thought it best to comment before I forget. I think representation isn’t necessarily about direct relation I.e. who you are at the moment you watch something vs who a character or characters are, it can be about what you take away from it e.g. I didn’t have a heart stopper experience for a variety of reasons, the majority not even related to sexuality or individual identity. I’m now closer to your ages than the target audience shall we say, the direct representation is great and will mean something to them, but watching it made me quite introspective in a positive way both about my circumstances and choices and how I want to align my then, now, and future so I think it’s important to have front runner shows that on the one hand may be sickly sweet at points but also are crucial and quite adult at others to even the keel of representation both in the now and for those who it wasn’t there for. Equally whilst I take Joel’s point regarding red white and royal blue, and the discussion around a front running lgbtq character vs incorporation into the story as a friend or more peripheral story, one has to ask why? Is it because that better represents society or is it that some of us feel that’s better and more representative of ourselves as that was the only route available to us. To use red, white and royal blue, some of us may align with the aristocratic or political view point of the characters, or some of us may relate to the concealed slightly elicit nature of the relationship as that was the only route we had to live through in our lives fearing what the consequences of coming out may mean for other factors or institutions than ourselves. We then have to ask just because that may be the more common experience, should representation reflect that, or should it be more aspirational and show us a path towards positive representation that aims for the stars of happiness rather than the make do and mend because society thinks it’s different. Equally if we are going to move towards incorporated representation as Joel describes rather than highlighted representation like lgbtq categorisation as Joel mentions, we first have to have all strata’s of society equal if not identical in stature, and unfortunately we aren’t there yet with lgbtq or a great many other characteristics still described as minorities in a numerical representation compared to the population for analysis rather than a sociological ideal we are all equal and our journeys all matter whether we are the few or the many. I would conclude just to say this isn’t a critical reply rather an observational one of some of the points Joel raised ❤️❤️
Welcome back guys! FYI: Allen was an actual Barbie doll marketed as Ken’s Buddy in the mid to late 1960’s As far as the lads from Red White and Royal Blue, they seem to be pretty vague about their private lives. Fingers crossed they were awakened during the film. 😀❤️👍🏼🏳️🌈.
This is a late comment. I just found this page and I liked you very much. So you probably won't read this being so late but I think that the sex scene in RWARB is fantastic and, yes, it did have an effect on me. I see that in your case it couldn't. You're both young, gorgeous and in love for a relatively short time so, no wonder. In my case in a monogamous relationship for 40 years (this next Monday), well, it was, no, it is still because I keep watching the movie and bits of it like daily... Love it. But yes, there have been other gay sex hot scenes like in Netflix ELITE season 5, ep 5, or in Netflix SMILEY second ep and others but, come on guys, Henry's face when alex enters him... that is monumental IMHO. Anyway it seems that you liked the movie and so did(do) I. As for Heartstopper you have already got so many comments disagreeing with you that I feel I should say that I actually agree. But it seems that not for the reasons you weren't impressed with it. I believe it's pernicious to young queers because it's a total fantasy. Yes, RWARB is a fantasy but for adults so we know it is. Consider most of the comments on Heartstopper everywhere. From older guys who of course know it's a fantasy and therefore enjoy it as something they wish had been able to watch when younger. In what world?. Yes, this is now the UK and the laws try to protect queers, not always succeeding and even today, imagine an ugly sissy gay boy (by the way horny as anyone at that age, since he accepted an abusive "boyfriend" to get off regularly) that falls, naturally, for a nice jock who happens to be the captain of the school rugby team who is dating a girl and, miraculously discovers he's actually bi because he falls in love with the school ugly duck... Really?. And then, after a second season the bi says he's still not ready to anything beyond kissing... And Charlie, the one with regular sex for months is totally happy with none after lots of kissing etc. I can't imagine Charlie's socks... actually I don't want to. And then you have the teens loving it. Which is perfectly OK since it's a fantasy made for them, but after the end of season 2 I resent that the producers rely on queer masochism to make money. It's brutally depressing.
I’m really surprised you guys didn’t enjoy Heartstopper. I’m WAY older than the characters in the show but I loved it! And Alan is an actual doll that was released a long time ago. All the dolls in the Barbie film are based on actual toys.
Firstly, welcome back...we missed you! I'm a Heartstopper fan, but I do agree that too much of it concentrated on gay characters... I tend to enjoy movies that are a little explicit, but beautiful love stories - it just makes it real to me...But audiences tend to be ok with it when it's a straight couple. I'm a fan of 'Dekkoo' which are mostly independent movies where all characters aren't gay but very explicit - the storylines are just real and amazing. As for Barbie - I just can't watch it - though all my friends loved it. I think it's the color pink that pushes me away from it - lol. As for straight actors playing gay characters - it's called acting! What the gay community mostly are opposed to are transgenders being played by straight actors when there are many great trans actors out there. I kind of agree with that. Just like keeg said, if there is a person with a disability then the role should be given to a person with a disability - with those two situations I agree with casting - in my opinion. So happy you guys are back!
I am probably in the minority with this one, but I didn't enjoy "Call me by your name" as much as others. Beautiful film, well shot, well acted, but when people were raving about it, I preferred "God's Own Country." I read CMBYN before the film, and the second half of the story (not in the film) was disappointing. I also found the parental accepting of this relationship of adult Oliver and 17 y/o Elio to be completely unrealistic of the early 80s. Even with the father basically coming out as Bi.
I think that having our own LGBTQ section on Netflix or Amazon or any other streaming platform is fantastic. I agree i think it should be mixed in with the straight movies too to be all inclusive! The reason we do not have a straight section is because we are a minority not the majority! Straight people have the biggest platform in the world we do not.
When you two were talking about how you reacted to that scene in Red White & Royal Blue, I couldnt stop thinking about how I reacted that same way when I saw UnCoupled on Netflix. The sex scenes are definitely more graphic but I was also taken by surprise mostly because of how often we *don't* get to see that with LGBTQ+ characters, however most of us dont bat an eye when we see long, intimate, and often graphic sex scenes in straight films and on tv. I know Queer as Folk and the Lword did have very graphic scenes back in the day but those are more expected on Showtime/HBO channels in the USA, but Netflix typically doesnt. I watched Uncoupled with my elderly mother and we both loved it but we both were shocked at how much they did show at times.
I think it’s a shame you guys didn’t enjoy Heartstopper. I definitely didn’t have the Heartstopper experience but I did see all my straight friends having that exact experience. And it was mind blowing to see what it might have been like for every sexuality. It’s great to see same sex starting relationships without it all being about sex. I think you don’t need to have lived that experience to appreciate that there is some representation. It blows my mind that there are even shows like this on mainstream tv showing that actually gay relationships are just relationships and feelings like everyone else. Never in my life time did I think it would be there let alone been so popular by everyone. Historically we always watched TV about straight people and never saw our lives at all. With actors, I think it shouldn’t matter. But the problem is gay guys don’t get straight parts historically (obviously with exceptions) there is discrimination in getting roles. So in that sense then yes gay guys should get those parts if these are the only parts they are ever offered. But in an ideal world it’s just acting and if everyone has the same shot then it shouldn’t matter what their sexuality is. Given that straight guys used to be warned off playing gay characters or it would tank their careers we have come a LONG way.
@@bcnmanhattan5022 it just means personally I think it’s unfortunate. We all have different interests as we should. I don’t think we need sex to be involved in a show to make it interesting. It’s all very subjective. The guys are allowed their opinion, as am I. I think it’s a shame.
I am old and I think I helped where the community is now, open out and normalized (at least in the ❤western world). But I also miss the old days where we were in a guetto and being gay renegades. It was exciting.
Sorry I missed the live broadcast (had to start work), but best of luck with the start of Season 2! Really enjoyed your show and topic this morning. I may or may not be in the majority in this, but I think any actor, gay or straight, can play a gay role. Take Will and Grace for instance. You had the best of both! All the actors, both straight and gay were terrific! I watched the movie Bros. It was good, but was it great? (I enjoyed the movie) And all the stars in the movies were gay. It's just like any movie or TV show. It's all about the acting, the actors and how they portray them! (Watch the Normal Heart and the chemistry between Mark Ruffalo (straight) and Matt Bomer (gay)---tear jerker!) And Red, White and Royal Blue was a feel good movie, regardless of the sexual orientation of the actors who played the leads. Congratulations and looking forward to the next episode! (Having 2 older sisters growing up who had the dolls, Alan was the friend of Ken's and the boyfriend of Midge, Barbie's friend) 👍👍👍
I really loved this episode. You made a great point about internalized homophobia in reaction to RWRB. About having more girls than boys as friends, I couldn't agree more with Joel. It's the same with me.
OK. I'm here, I'm queer and I'm having a leer. However, I only used the word leer in the sense that I'm watching the show (although as Keegan knows I quite fancy him and if doesn't want to attract that kind of crowd then he shouldn't wear such tight jeans imho). 😜
I strongly disagree with what Joel said about not needing leading gay characters. We DO need them, the film industry is full of straight storylines in all the genres, we still need more representation. Sense8 was great because of that. We need pieces of art that are purely seen through and lived through lgbtq+ people. And let's not forget that we the gays are not the only ones who need representation. What about trans? non-binary? Where are their leading storylines?
Allan was not only a real doll and Ken's friend but far from gay as he was also Midge's boyfriend. Midge is also featured in the movie as the pregnant Barbie (the baby was Allan's). Regarding straight actors playing gay and vice-versa, sure that's happened for ever. The issue is that while straight actors go and play straight and gay characters, out gay actors suffer and lose opportunities once they've come out. Look at the careers of Jim Parsons and Neil Patrick Harris. They both came out at the top of their careers as Sheldon and Barney, but once their shows were over, what happened? Mostly playing gay roles, or gay-coded roles, or voice acting, and/or only given the lead on LGBTQ+ led projects. The stigma of gay actors not being able to sell a straight character still exists.
In white red and Royal blue I found it quite funny and amusing that the uncle/the king is played by Stephen Fry. Who plays homophobic but is actually gay in real life. I don’t know why but I just found that very clever somehow. It didn’t make up for the main characters being straight playing gay, but it was kind of a way of saying this is how we chose to do it😊 I loved heartstopper but single all the way I did not, The Christmas set up was more my cop of tea🥰
I agree with everything that was said! I liked heartstopper and it’s a sweet show but I fell into deep depression after the first season and it was as if I was grieving the teenage years and early experiences I’ll never get to have. The second season was sweet but couldn’t relate to it at all…as a 27 year old I don’t think I’m alone in feeling this way about Heartstopper.
What a great episode. My partner and I watched "Interview with the Vampire" the AMC series and identified with the characters. It starts out with queer issues but becomes a story about men who just happen to be queer. Their dynamics are so relatable that many heterosexual couples can easily identify with them. What's interesting is that we watched it a second time and saw these minor details that made my partner and I dislike the characters that we'd previously identified with because we saw flaws that mirrored our own or our exes. Ouch. It was time to turn it off. 😂
Hard agree on letting straight actors play gay roles. I don’t see anything wrong with that. Whoever is best for the role should get it! It’s acting. In countries that are super homophobic, allowing anyone to play queer roles means you don’t have to disclose your sexuality to play a role, which is good for the safety of queer actors. Or queer actors who don’t want to get type cast as The Gay One. I don’t get why people accuse straight celebrities of queerbaiting when they play queer roles / “act queer” either. It’s weird…
Call me jealous or bitter for saying this, but I would really like to see any kind of gay narrative that's positive but ISN'T around a finding or having a boyfriend. Not only is this over correction having so many miserable gay stories that shows like Heartstopper are just so disgustingly sweet to the point that most gay people can't relate (and even painful to watch for single guys like myself) but it tells me that romance is the only topic worth exploring in a gay media today which is so not the case.
The creators have made a huge point about there being Absolutely Nothing Gay about the film as if it were a virtue. The worst part about the film was that it was sincere in what it advocated as being best for men and in making it clear that it would not let anything else fly. Heartstopper concerned me because the gay representation did not originate from the G and in consequence the gay character continually got the short end of the stick and what pretty clearly what LBTQ people want gays to be in general. I worry for young gays getting the message that they should model themselves on Fanny Price.
I've not seen RW&RB yet but what I've heard it seems like the usual highly sexual gay story with flawlessly good looking gay leads who I don't connect with. Someone like me would never be lead in a gay film because I would probably get the same bullying that Joe Locke got and he's really cute. Also I'm 31 and yeah I do wish I had the same experience but I enjoy and relate more to Heartstopper and it does talk about tough issues, especially in the second series. I feel it shows there's more to gay relationships and friends then just being about sex.
love to watch and learn, about you two as well as about the culture. must sat though, that it seems a bit exclusionary, the name as well as the opening line, as I am not a homo and so wonder if the intent was to be only for the homo community. won't stop me from watching, just wondered.
What about "Pride" - when a group of gays supported the miners in the early 80's. True story and I knew most of the main characters. It was when we started to stan up for ourselves ans say "enough is enough"
I do agree that there are talented people and acting as pretending but I know that producers and FILMMAKERS will use that against queer people playing queer roles. Also, there’s the question of funding stories based on intersectionality.
Being gay is a disability though in our world when you think about it. We are still a massively discriminated group with many disadvantages still. Acting is historically and presently is still one of those disadvantages. It's better for sure, but still not great. Also yeah you wouldn't cast a real wizard, cause there isn't one... But gay people are real and a gay person will always have the ability to bring the authentic real life experience to a role more than a straight actor could. Doesn't mean the straight actor can be good, but their performance will always largely be based on a second hand perspective at best and not a first.
What’s the problem with gay fiction as a movie. Because I just heard you both cut down “gay fiction” like Red, White and Royal Blue and Heartstopper Why do you, especially Joel, need to relate to the story in order to like the story? Very bougie indeed. Anyway, your loss.
this conversation was stupid, instead on focusing on representation try focusing on stories that are told to captivate the audience and if a character happens to homosexual great, if not move on
Heartstopper is actual trash. Ain't got nothing to do with relatability. Every character in that show is just aggressively sad and annoying for no reason. I suppose that's a realistic portrayal of how people that age often act but it still sucks to watch. The pacing is also sucks. Too much time spent on dumb drama. All the interesting stuff is anticlimactically resolved in the most obvious and boring way possible.
Shocked. I am shocked. I sooo agree with you. Plus, I think now it's just another gay soap. And we have a long and fruitful story of gay soaps. I guess there must be another one from time to time. My main complaint is that the producers rely on gay masochism to make money
About shows, agreed, I didn't relate to Heartstopper. It is a sweet story though. To highlight some shows that weren't mentioned, I personally really enjoyed Smiley. I also enjoyed and found Eastsiders to be relatable, it was very real. If you enjoy anime, I'd also recommend Given.
Allan is totally a real doll! He was Ken's "friend"
Also, I'm 45 and LOVE Heart Stopper. I think it's great kids have shows like this. This was of course NOT my childhood, but I love seeing it. My inner child is pleased.
Also like you said, when I was growing up, gay representation meant dying of AIDS or getting hate crimed to death. I love happy gays in media, it's about time!
I mean, I didn’t have the ‘Heartstopper’ experience in school but I really loved it. Of course I lament the lack of queer people in school but I lapped up the sweet energy.
I couldn’t relate to Heartstopper either but that made me love it so much more. It makes me really emotional because it’s the youth I dreamed of having. There was only 1 openly gay guy at my school, 1 bisexual girl, 0 lesbians. So there was so queer friendship group for me. HS’s kinda unrealistic but I think that’s the point! It’s good to show healthy queer relationships for kids, which is something that you rarely ever get for young boys. My inner child is healing ❤️🩹
I don’t think heartstopper is supposed to be relatable in that regard. What makes heartstopper good is it’s an escape from the generally dull reality of being queer in school and more about what a bright future for queer people would look like. What I love about Heartstopper too is it’s a break from really dull gay tragedy’s, it’s a love letter to us and displays EVERY aspect of the LGBT community in a much more positive and hopeful light and celebrates people’s uniqueness, it’s a very heartwarming series which we don’t see often in queer media because of movies like Brokeback mountain setting the standard for queer TV as tragic, it’s a great change of pace
Allan was an actual doll from Mattel. The tagline was something about him being Ken’s ‘friend’ and basically fitting into Ken’s clothes. It has homosocial and homosexual readings.
I'm in my 50s and I love Heartstopper and don't find the ages of the characters a barrier to their relatability at all. I just enjoyed watching them overcome their struggles and be happy together.
SKAM is the perfect example of equal representation, that's why it had so many remakes.
The podcast caters to a very specific group of people: cis-gendered gay men in their thirties who came out later in life and have access to resources. They often discuss their personal experiences and viewpoints but tend to overlook those who don't fit their demographics. In addition, they can be unintendedly dismissive towards gay men who came out in the 80s and 90s and do not have traditional views on relationships or sexuality. This leaves little room for a diverse range of perspectives and can be hurtful to those who don't fit their narrow target audience.
They examine issues at a surface level without regard for queer history or context. Referring to queer cinema from 80’s, 90’s and 00’s as a “Misery Fest” is dismissive to us who would lived through threw AIDS crisis of the 80’s and 90’s, risking everything and our lives to come out to drive queer rights and HIV research. We needed the cathartic release of The Boys in The Band, Torch Song Trilogy, Jeffrey, and Longtime Companion. Then, completely ignoring more upbeat movies of the times, Billy's Hollywood Screen Kiss, La Cage aux Folles, and The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert.
Unfortunately, queer cinema is a straightforward topic to look up and does not require much time. There are great retrospectives like The Celluloid Closet book and documentary.
I have to ask myself why the Gay Community needs redefining. Queer culture is always in flux and expanding to include more types of people. When they empower gay men to live happy and healthy lives, they focus on the rules and advice that worked for them.
If you are looking for a podcast about queer theory and culture, queer history, interpersonal introspection, and working on radical empathy, there are much better podcasts.
Agree 💯
Congratulations on Season 2 and what a fantastic way to kick things off, and it's worth celebrating the diverse and complex landscape of queer storytelling that we're fortunate to have today. This rich tapestry of narratives challenges the misconception that the queer community is a monolith. In truth, we are wonderfully multi-dimensional, with a range of virtues and flaws, and our experiences within our own community can be vastly different.
It's vital that we acknowledge and embrace this diversity among ourselves. Recently, I heard a queer man on a popular call-in radio show sharing his own unique experience, one devoid of any encounters with homophobia. However, his commentary took an unfortunate turn towards victim-blaming, suggesting that certain behaviours or mannerisms invite prejudice. Thus the increase in queer/gay bashing.
As a young boy (early teens), I immersed myself in every queer-themed movie, short film, or story I could find, driven by a deep desire to understand the culture and the people I was connected to. Sadly, much of what I encountered left me feeling despondent, as it often painted a bleak picture of our future-harrowing battles against AIDS, the torment of bullying or drug abuse, and the tragic end of existence. Love seemed like a distant fantasy, undeserved in my eyes. I believed that my only chance at momentary love or validation rested on achieving an idealized, 'Ken doll' appearance, with casual and frequent sexual encounters becoming central to my sense of queerness. Our traumas were portrayed as a constant exhibit, and I absorbed this damaging narrative.
Thankfully, in more recent times, I've found solace in stories like "Heartstopper," and reveled in the light-hearted joy of "RW&RB" (because we all deserve some silly, fun, rom-coms in our lives). Shows like "Love Victor," "Euphoria," "Pose," "Sex Education," "Special," "Elite," and many others have enriched my understanding of my own queer experiences. Some of these narratives are profoundly moving and educational, while others simply entertain, and that's perfectly fine. What truly matters is that our storytelling continues to be diverse, exposing us to the myriad facets of queer lives, helping us understand that our community is as beautifully complex as humanity itself.
I guess I had a lot to say, sorry.
…very well said…no apologies accepted!
❤@@hnormany999
Mmññ
Its nice to see you guys back. but I admit I disagreed with a few points...
Re Heartstopper: Being a 40 year old gay man, I love heart stopper, and I guess I qualify as a more masc guy, as far as such things are accurate. I tend to gravitate towards more masculine things. BUt what drew me to heartstopper was that its everythign I WISH I had had growing up. There weren't gay people on TV until I was in college, and I def didn't Identify with Will or Jack, so it was hard to relate to such characatures. What I love about Heartstopper is its unabashed queerness and its not buying into stereotypes, its just letting people find themself and express that. I woudl have loved to been able to ask a boy on a date or go to a dance, secretly or publicly. Let alone be on a school trip with a boyfriend! Maybe its a bit of a vicarious experience for me, but there it is. I enjoy it because I feel like its how I wanted my life to go, and it didnt.
re Straight Actors playing Gay roles: In general, I support the best actor for the part playing the part, regardless of orientation/sexuality, as long as its authentic and real. The two leads of RW&RB are a perfect example of this. They both provide real in depth queer characters and they two men are respectful to the entire process and performance. However then you get James Corden in The Prom... and that was a clusterfuck to put it lightly. The BIG ISSUE with this subject is that when straight actors get LAUDED for telling queer stories, awards, salaries, etc, they often IGNORE the actual community. For decades queer actors have been FORCED to remain in the closet to keep their careers. Look at Rock Hudson, or Colton Haynes, who is a much more recent victim of the holywood machine, and yet these straight actors get all the "fame and glory" for being brave enough to PLAY a gay role, while gay actors are forced not to live an open queer life. Its about a double standard. Holywood and straight actors have been banking off queer/gay stories and histories for decades now, and giving very little back to the community. Same for the Black COmmunity, same for Women. the list goes on. Its tricky, btu YES a talented capable actor should be able to play any role, that is their job. But seeing our community represented by ACTUAL members of the community is so much more meaningful than seeing a big name celeb do it for audience draw.
Congrats on season two🎉 i’m 36 and I watched heartstopper and I really enjoyed it. I didn’t have the same experience when I was at school, but I light the positive representation of queer people. I also watch red, white and royal blue. It’s a bit more mature, but I really enjoyed it too. I think it’s on your taste. I love gay romance in general, so I loved it all.🌈❤️
When I was a kid, there was no representation at all or very rarely and uglily. Then when I was teenager I was dark, chaotic representation, then it was HIV, then it was tragic, then queer batting kind of shows. So it's recently with Shadowhunters, 2016, then Love Victor, Heartstopper, and finally RWRB that I'm confortable watching gays on TV. Love it absolutely. In its heydays QAF was a big thing but it was caricatural, harsh at time.
I don’t relate with Heartstopper but there was so many elements that loved on the show. The show it a huge representation for younger people.
What is nice about heartstopper and shows y’all mentioned . Representation can be other things not just sexual identity and experience
So happy you guys are back, and with a great first episode! In regards to Heartstopper, as a straight middle-aged lady I am definitely not the target audience, but I adore that show (and the books) so much! It's just a warm hug of joy and kind of aspirational (bullying and Charlie's mental health aside). I've seen a lot of older queer people comment that the show makes them kind of sad or jealous that that wasn't their teen/school experience, and I'm sure the happy romance and big queer friend group still isn't the experience for a lot of queer youth, but I love that the show presents it as a possibility and it's a world I hope we can get to.
Alan actually existed, I had to google it when I watched it 🤣
Both of you are just absolutely adorable! The conversation was so breezy and has excited my grey cells.
Absolutely love Red, White and Royal Blue!!!!
A suggestion to you guys. I'm sure you wouldn't be scared off by subtitled movies but there's a French movie out at present called in English "Lie With Me" (a pretty inaccurate translation of the original "Arrete Avec Tes Mensonges", but never mind). It is so well handled and everyone I know who has seen it loved it. I'd recommend it even to straight people.
Love seeing you beaming boys, again! Welcome back! ;) Such a positive vibe. Keep the episodes rolling!
I enjoy being old enough (and out long enough) to have *literally* watched the unfolding and evolving of gay representation in film & TV become what it is today. From that moment, all those years ago, I sat sobbing watching BROKE BACK MOUNTAIN (months before I came out) to recently seeing OF AN AGE (brilliant, btw) and trying to explain to my loving, hetero friends: “Imagine would it would feel like if we swapped shoes: try going 30+ years and never seeing YOUR type of relationship in media… and then, one day, it’s there - BIG. In technicolor. And you genuinely *feel* being seen; you feel normal.” We’ve watched hetero relationships our entire lives. We’ve postured and positioned ourselves around them. So, I’m all for getting more stories out - more nuance, more reality, more honesty, more humor - of what it means to be *Happy Healthy Homos.* ;) Love you boys! Keep adding light!
I’m an old so certainly didn’t have the Heartstopper experience. It was illegal here in Canada when I was realizing who I was. But I loved the hopefulness of Heartstopper and it made me wish I had had that kind of experience.
I know this is a late comment on this video, but i definitely recommend you guys to watch BL (Boys Love) shows from Thai, Japan, or Korea. They have lots more queer love representation. Although they are mostly target towards women, but some shows lately are much more targeted towards the lgbt. They have some heartwarming content like HS or a bit more mature like RWRB.
In red,white and royal blue it wasn't a scene you have seen in many films except porn and maybe queer as folk so it was a surprise but not shocking to me it should be shown. As a straight woman these podcasts are brilliant and so needed in today's world xx
Your comments about actors and acting were spot on. It’s pretense!
If you're recommending gay films, I recommend "Jeffrey ". It's a 90s or early 2000s comedy with a viewpoint about how the AIDS crisis affects love and relationships among the gay community members. (It's also cool due to the many cameos by well known actors, and the camp performance by Patrick Stewart).
You guys are totally in your stride and it shows . It’s great you have such a great robust relationship together but also keep your own personalities. Looking forward to every episode ❤
I don’t think you necessarily have to relate but you can appreciate that a new generation of gay will have what we didn’t. All I saw growing up was a hyper-feminized or sexualized gay character which I am neither but it sets a standard of what society expects from a gay man & every time I had to come out I’d get “oh really? You’re so normal! I wouldn’t have guessed.” Like what does that mean?
you guys touched on this a bit but I totally agree with liking that sort of "hallmark" feeling for a gay couple. I think older generations, like those who grew up in the AIDS epidemic, still kind of associate queerness with angst and drama. Of course I think modern works that still explore these topics are valid, but its always refreshing to see representation with no pretenses of feeling "edgy" or what have you.
Keegan - loved your comment about spaghetti being straight 🤣 🏉🌈🏉
Thanks guys for having respectful gay conversations about things (Barbie & RWRB) and exploring the ways we react somewhat differently among ourselves…we appreciate your exploring things we are thinking in open respectful “real” ways..it’s easy to ..love..you guys & what you are doing!
I definitely agree you do not need to relate to everything you watch to enjoy it.
Even though I didn't relate to any of the characters in Heartstopper, I am not the target audience. My daughters are (15 yr old twins). They were big fans of the comic long before the tv show. I love that it is available to them and I can share it with them. It not only addresses lgbtqa but also delves into mental heath, cutting, eating disorders (mainly season 3) in a way that is honest yet hopeful that everything will be alright.
Agony Unc section might be an appropriate name? This new series seems a lot more professh - well done guys. 👏
Captain Yorkshire! Yes! And love the Devil's Avocado! 🥑🤣
Agree, nuanced representations are healthier for one and all.
Always worth a watch.welcome back you lovely people.
I noticed the change in the logo. Much appreciated 👏🏽
This was a nice soft landing into Szn 2‼️ This was a great discussion about positive representation of gay characters in media present and past. Queer As Folk, The Real L Word, Looking, Please Like Me, Special, Single All The Way, and now BROS are my favorite mainstream gay series and movies.
Joel, I appreciate this positive change in your on-screen presence. You seem alot more energetic than you did last szn. I hope you keep that same energy going forward. No notes for Keegs 😂
Also, I hope we can get longer episodes in the future 🤞🏾 Thanks Boys for a great start to my Wednesday. Welcome Back‼️
Hi guys. Really enjoyed this week’s episode on queer representation in the media. At the end of the day actors are people who play let’s pretend and get paid for it. To be able to play straight or gay ( if they are straight) should not be judged. Most straight actors don’t play gay to make fun of gays they often down play them ( Will in Will and Grace ). It is I think sad that many actors such as Rock Hudson and Richard Chamberlain had to hide their gay identity to protect their careers and the Studios reputations. It can only be a good thing though that given more and more people entering the profession identifying on the queer spectrum they should be given the chance to play characters they can identify with. Russell T Davis is amazing at doing this. I am not gay but I enjoy watching comedies and dramas like his because they can teach us how to be more tolerant of one another . Oh and if you haven’t watched Smiley a Spanish gay comedy ( dubbed in English ) you should it’s definitely worth a watch.
Alan was a doll.He was Kens friend in the Mattel series.❤
Favorite Gay Movies:
Blue is the Warmest Color
Carmen & Lola
Free Fall
1985
Shelter
Instead of Helpful Homos, you should call it “Ask Jeegs”, like a play on the old “Ask Jeeves”. 🙂 Love that you’re back, can’t wait for the rest of Season 2! ❤
Hi guys. Great episode as always with good topics. Just thought I'd let you know there's a very slight lag between the video and the audio, the video seems to be lagging behind the audio ever so slightly. Could be my internet but all other youtube videos I've watched are fine so it could be a technical issue with the upload. Has anyone else experienced this? Also the audio is very quiet even with my volume turned right up, when adverts come on I have to turn it down because they're so loud.
Only about halfway through but, thought it best to comment before I forget. I think representation isn’t necessarily about direct relation I.e. who you are at the moment you watch something vs who a character or characters are, it can be about what you take away from it e.g. I didn’t have a heart stopper experience for a variety of reasons, the majority not even related to sexuality or individual identity. I’m now closer to your ages than the target audience shall we say, the direct representation is great and will mean something to them, but watching it made me quite introspective in a positive way both about my circumstances and choices and how I want to align my then, now, and future so I think it’s important to have front runner shows that on the one hand may be sickly sweet at points but also are crucial and quite adult at others to even the keel of representation both in the now and for those who it wasn’t there for. Equally whilst I take Joel’s point regarding red white and royal blue, and the discussion around a front running lgbtq character vs incorporation into the story as a friend or more peripheral story, one has to ask why? Is it because that better represents society or is it that some of us feel that’s better and more representative of ourselves as that was the only route available to us. To use red, white and royal blue, some of us may align with the aristocratic or political view point of the characters, or some of us may relate to the concealed slightly elicit nature of the relationship as that was the only route we had to live through in our lives fearing what the consequences of coming out may mean for other factors or institutions than ourselves. We then have to ask just because that may be the more common experience, should representation reflect that, or should it be more aspirational and show us a path towards positive representation that aims for the stars of happiness rather than the make do and mend because society thinks it’s different. Equally if we are going to move towards incorporated representation as Joel describes rather than highlighted representation like lgbtq categorisation as Joel mentions, we first have to have all strata’s of society equal if not identical in stature, and unfortunately we aren’t there yet with lgbtq or a great many other characteristics still described as minorities in a numerical representation compared to the population for analysis rather than a sociological ideal we are all equal and our journeys all matter whether we are the few or the many.
I would conclude just to say this isn’t a critical reply rather an observational one of some of the points Joel raised ❤️❤️
So happy you guys are back. Love your banter and smiles. Have missed this!! Keep up the fun. ❤❤❤
Welcome back guys! FYI: Allen was an actual Barbie doll marketed as Ken’s Buddy in the mid to late 1960’s As far as the lads from Red White and Royal Blue, they seem to be pretty vague about their private lives. Fingers crossed they were awakened during the film. 😀❤️👍🏼🏳️🌈.
This is a late comment. I just found this page and I liked you very much. So you probably won't read this being so late but I think that the sex scene in RWARB is fantastic and, yes, it did have an effect on me. I see that in your case it couldn't. You're both young, gorgeous and in love for a relatively short time so, no wonder. In my case in a monogamous relationship for 40 years (this next Monday), well, it was, no, it is still because I keep watching the movie and bits of it like daily... Love it. But yes, there have been other gay sex hot scenes like in Netflix ELITE season 5, ep 5, or in Netflix SMILEY second ep and others but, come on guys, Henry's face when alex enters him... that is monumental IMHO. Anyway it seems that you liked the movie and so did(do) I.
As for Heartstopper you have already got so many comments disagreeing with you that I feel I should say that I actually agree. But it seems that not for the reasons you weren't impressed with it. I believe it's pernicious to young queers because it's a total fantasy. Yes, RWARB is a fantasy but for adults so we know it is. Consider most of the comments on Heartstopper everywhere. From older guys who of course know it's a fantasy and therefore enjoy it as something they wish had been able to watch when younger. In what world?. Yes, this is now the UK and the laws try to protect queers, not always succeeding and even today, imagine an ugly sissy gay boy (by the way horny as anyone at that age, since he accepted an abusive "boyfriend" to get off regularly) that falls, naturally, for a nice jock who happens to be the captain of the school rugby team who is dating a girl and, miraculously discovers he's actually bi because he falls in love with the school ugly duck... Really?. And then, after a second season the bi says he's still not ready to anything beyond kissing... And Charlie, the one with regular sex for months is totally happy with none after lots of kissing etc. I can't imagine Charlie's socks... actually I don't want to. And then you have the teens loving it. Which is perfectly OK since it's a fantasy made for them, but after the end of season 2 I resent that the producers rely on queer masochism to make money. It's brutally depressing.
I’m really surprised you guys didn’t enjoy Heartstopper. I’m WAY older than the characters in the show but I loved it! And Alan is an actual doll that was released a long time ago. All the dolls in the Barbie film are based on actual toys.
Always enjoy your thought provoking discussion. 🎉 peace✌️
Firstly, welcome back...we missed you! I'm a Heartstopper fan, but I do agree that too much of it concentrated on gay characters... I tend to enjoy movies that are a little explicit, but beautiful love stories - it just makes it real to me...But audiences tend to be ok with it when it's a straight couple. I'm a fan of 'Dekkoo' which are mostly independent movies where all characters aren't gay but very explicit - the storylines are just real and amazing. As for Barbie - I just can't watch it - though all my friends loved it. I think it's the color pink that pushes me away from it - lol. As for straight actors playing gay characters - it's called acting! What the gay community mostly are opposed to are transgenders being played by straight actors when there are many great trans actors out there. I kind of agree with that. Just like keeg said, if there is a person with a disability then the role should be given to a person with a disability - with those two situations I agree with casting - in my opinion. So happy you guys are back!
I am probably in the minority with this one, but I didn't enjoy "Call me by your name" as much as others. Beautiful film, well shot, well acted, but when people were raving about it, I preferred "God's Own Country." I read CMBYN before the film, and the second half of the story (not in the film) was disappointing. I also found the parental accepting of this relationship of adult Oliver and 17 y/o Elio to be completely unrealistic of the early 80s. Even with the father basically coming out as Bi.
I think that having our own LGBTQ section on Netflix or Amazon or any other streaming platform is fantastic.
I agree i think it should be mixed in with the straight movies too to be all inclusive!
The reason we do not have a straight section is because we are a minority not the majority!
Straight people have the biggest platform in the world we do not.
Hey guys, liking this new series. Great discussion and looking forward tothe next.
When you two were talking about how you reacted to that scene in Red White & Royal Blue, I couldnt stop thinking about how I reacted that same way when I saw UnCoupled on Netflix. The sex scenes are definitely more graphic but I was also taken by surprise mostly because of how often we *don't* get to see that with LGBTQ+ characters, however most of us dont bat an eye when we see long, intimate, and often graphic sex scenes in straight films and on tv.
I know Queer as Folk and the Lword did have very graphic scenes back in the day but those are more expected on Showtime/HBO channels in the USA, but Netflix typically doesnt. I watched Uncoupled with my elderly mother and we both loved it but we both were shocked at how much they did show at times.
I think it’s a shame you guys didn’t enjoy Heartstopper. I definitely didn’t have the Heartstopper experience but I did see all my straight friends having that exact experience. And it was mind blowing to see what it might have been like for every sexuality. It’s great to see same sex starting relationships without it all being about sex.
I think you don’t need to have lived that experience to appreciate that there is some representation. It blows my mind that there are even shows like this on mainstream tv showing that actually gay relationships are just relationships and feelings like everyone else. Never in my life time did I think it would be there let alone been so popular by everyone. Historically we always watched TV about straight people and never saw our lives at all.
With actors, I think it shouldn’t matter. But the problem is gay guys don’t get straight parts historically (obviously with exceptions) there is discrimination in getting roles. So in that sense then yes gay guys should get those parts if these are the only parts they are ever offered. But in an ideal world it’s just acting and if everyone has the same shot then it shouldn’t matter what their sexuality is. Given that straight guys used to be warned off playing gay characters or it would tank their careers we have come a LONG way.
shame ??
@@bcnmanhattan5022 it just means personally I think it’s unfortunate. We all have different interests as we should. I don’t think we need sex to be involved in a show to make it interesting. It’s all very subjective. The guys are allowed their opinion, as am I. I think it’s a shame.
@@PaladinesAngel Pity
I was late even though i set the reminders but im so glad to see the banter and love between you just warms my heart!
I am old and I think I helped where the community is now, open out and normalized (at least in the ❤western world). But I also miss the old days where we were in a guetto and being gay renegades. It was exciting.
Sorry I missed the live broadcast (had to start work), but best of luck with the start of Season 2! Really enjoyed your show and topic this morning. I may or may not be in the majority in this, but I think any actor, gay or straight, can play a gay role. Take Will and Grace for instance. You had the best of both! All the actors, both straight and gay were terrific! I watched the movie Bros. It was good, but was it great? (I enjoyed the movie) And all the stars in the movies were gay. It's just like any movie or TV show. It's all about the acting, the actors and how they portray them! (Watch the Normal Heart and the chemistry between Mark Ruffalo (straight) and Matt Bomer (gay)---tear jerker!) And Red, White and Royal Blue was a feel good movie, regardless of the sexual orientation of the actors who played the leads. Congratulations and looking forward to the next episode! (Having 2 older sisters growing up who had the dolls, Alan was the friend of Ken's and the boyfriend of Midge, Barbie's friend) 👍👍👍
I really loved this episode. You made a great point about internalized homophobia in reaction to RWRB. About having more girls than boys as friends, I couldn't agree more with Joel. It's the same with me.
Even as a 60+ year old I loved Heartstopper
OK. I'm here, I'm queer and I'm having a leer. However, I only used the word leer in the sense that I'm watching the show (although as Keegan knows I quite fancy him and if doesn't want to attract that kind of crowd then he shouldn't wear such tight jeans imho). 😜
I strongly disagree with what Joel said about not needing leading gay characters. We DO need them, the film industry is full of straight storylines in all the genres, we still need more representation. Sense8 was great because of that. We need pieces of art that are purely seen through and lived through lgbtq+ people. And let's not forget that we the gays are not the only ones who need representation. What about trans? non-binary? Where are their leading storylines?
Allan was not only a real doll and Ken's friend but far from gay as he was also Midge's boyfriend. Midge is also featured in the movie as the pregnant Barbie (the baby was Allan's). Regarding straight actors playing gay and vice-versa, sure that's happened for ever. The issue is that while straight actors go and play straight and gay characters, out gay actors suffer and lose opportunities once they've come out. Look at the careers of Jim Parsons and Neil Patrick Harris. They both came out at the top of their careers as Sheldon and Barney, but once their shows were over, what happened? Mostly playing gay roles, or gay-coded roles, or voice acting, and/or only given the lead on LGBTQ+ led projects. The stigma of gay actors not being able to sell a straight character still exists.
In white red and Royal blue I found it quite funny and amusing that the uncle/the king is played by Stephen Fry. Who plays homophobic but is actually gay in real life. I don’t know why but I just found that very clever somehow. It didn’t make up for the main characters being straight playing gay, but it was kind of a way of saying this is how we chose to do it😊 I loved heartstopper but single all the way I did not, The Christmas set up was more my cop of tea🥰
Wish there was a combo membership for Joel’s channel and this one!
Great episode!
I agree with everything that was said! I liked heartstopper and it’s a sweet show but I fell into deep depression after the first season and it was as if I was grieving the teenage years and early experiences I’ll never get to have. The second season was sweet but couldn’t relate to it at all…as a 27 year old I don’t think I’m alone in feeling this way about Heartstopper.
Coming from a homophobic country... Yh couldn't relate at all😢
Oh, please half of the male actors in Hollywood were gay in the 40s. Hahaha. They played straight men. 😂
Welcome back!
The way he casually said the guy who eats people allegedly made me laugh 😂
What a great episode. My partner and I watched "Interview with the Vampire" the AMC series and identified with the characters. It starts out with queer issues but becomes a story about men who just happen to be queer. Their dynamics are so relatable that many heterosexual couples can easily identify with them.
What's interesting is that we watched it a second time and saw these minor details that made my partner and I dislike the characters that we'd previously identified with because we saw flaws that mirrored our own or our exes. Ouch. It was time to turn it off. 😂
Such as? 😂
welcome back!!
I came for Joel and Lia but stayed for Joel and Keegan!
Have you watched Will & Grace
Hard agree on letting straight actors play gay roles. I don’t see anything wrong with that. Whoever is best for the role should get it! It’s acting. In countries that are super homophobic, allowing anyone to play queer roles means you don’t have to disclose your sexuality to play a role, which is good for the safety of queer actors. Or queer actors who don’t want to get type cast as The Gay One.
I don’t get why people accuse straight celebrities of queerbaiting when they play queer roles / “act queer” either. It’s weird…
I love the accent 🤩💖
Call me jealous or bitter for saying this, but I would really like to see any kind of gay narrative that's positive but ISN'T around a finding or having a boyfriend.
Not only is this over correction having so many miserable gay stories that shows like Heartstopper are just so disgustingly sweet to the point that most gay people can't relate (and even painful to watch for single guys like myself) but it tells me that romance is the only topic worth exploring in a gay media today which is so not the case.
The creators have made a huge point about there being Absolutely Nothing Gay about the film as if it were a virtue. The worst part about the film was that it was sincere in what it advocated as being best for men and in making it clear that it would not let anything else fly.
Heartstopper concerned me because the gay representation did not originate from the G and in consequence the gay character continually got the short end of the stick and what pretty clearly what LBTQ people want gays to be in general. I worry for young gays getting the message that they should model themselves on Fanny Price.
Love you guys together! ❤
Yes the Allen doll did exist.
I've not seen RW&RB yet but what I've heard it seems like the usual highly sexual gay story with flawlessly good looking gay leads who I don't connect with. Someone like me would never be lead in a gay film because I would probably get the same bullying that Joe Locke got and he's really cute. Also I'm 31 and yeah I do wish I had the same experience but I enjoy and relate more to Heartstopper and it does talk about tough issues, especially in the second series. I feel it shows there's more to gay relationships and friends then just being about sex.
love to watch and learn, about you two as well as about the culture. must sat though, that it seems a bit exclusionary, the name as well as the opening line, as I am not a homo and so wonder if the intent was to be only for the homo community. won't stop me from watching, just wondered.
What about "Pride" - when a group of gays supported the miners in the early 80's. True story and I knew most of the main characters. It was when we started to stan up for ourselves ans say "enough is enough"
Allen was a real product
[Wow, matching hairdos. Were they expensive?]
SO EXCITED FOR THIS EPISODE ALREADY! I love Pop Culture Discourse ❤
Ngl Keegan does look a little bit like Luke MACFARLANE. Also, the actor has played a gay character before he came out.
I do agree that there are talented people and acting as pretending but I know that producers and FILMMAKERS will use that against queer people playing queer roles. Also, there’s the question of funding stories based on intersectionality.
Being gay is a disability though in our world when you think about it. We are still a massively discriminated group with many disadvantages still. Acting is historically and presently is still one of those disadvantages. It's better for sure, but still not great.
Also yeah you wouldn't cast a real wizard, cause there isn't one... But gay people are real and a gay person will always have the ability to bring the authentic real life experience to a role more than a straight actor could. Doesn't mean the straight actor can be good, but their performance will always largely be based on a second hand perspective at best and not a first.
Glad to have you both back by the way. 😊❤❤
Maybe instead of the "helping homo's"you could call yourselfs "The Florence Nightingay's"?
Allan really is a thing. Short lived, but a thing. I am 100% team Allan after the Barbie movie.
I’m 46 and I thought heartstopper was amazing and really relatable, red white and royal blue was so vacuous in comparison.
Hello
I was wondering if you guys know the history why homosexual became a bad thing
What’s the problem with gay fiction as a movie. Because I just heard you both cut down “gay fiction” like Red, White and Royal Blue and Heartstopper Why do you, especially Joel, need to relate to the story in order to like the story? Very bougie indeed. Anyway, your loss.
We loved Red White and Royal Blue… not sure where you heard that we didn’t…
this conversation was stupid, instead on focusing on representation try focusing on stories that are told to captivate the audience and if a character happens to homosexual great, if not move on
Heartstopper is actual trash. Ain't got nothing to do with relatability. Every character in that show is just aggressively sad and annoying for no reason. I suppose that's a realistic portrayal of how people that age often act but it still sucks to watch. The pacing is also sucks. Too much time spent on dumb drama. All the interesting stuff is anticlimactically resolved in the most obvious and boring way possible.
Shocked. I am shocked. I sooo agree with you. Plus, I think now it's just another gay soap. And we have a long and fruitful story of gay soaps. I guess there must be another one from time to time. My main complaint is that the producers rely on gay masochism to make money
About shows, agreed, I didn't relate to Heartstopper. It is a sweet story though.
To highlight some shows that weren't mentioned, I personally really enjoyed Smiley. I also enjoyed and found Eastsiders to be relatable, it was very real. If you enjoy anime, I'd also recommend Given.
Yes, Netflix SMILEY is fantastic. An adult fantasy for adult audiences