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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ก.ย. 2021
- Why Battlefield 5's gunplay is bad :) don't do it again DICE!
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#Battlefield #Battlefield5 #Battlefield2042 - เกม
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EZ first borpaSpin
Ahhhh beat me to it
It's actually not just the sight movement (i.e cone of dispersion centre being decoupled from screen centre) that's the problem, only a portion of the spread roll (i.e dispersion value) is applied to sight movement. The rest is applied to game world pitch/yaw, on top of the base vertical and horizontal recoil values that always existed in the franchise and still do in BF5.
The issue with that, is that when you apply a spread value; (which is literally angular dispersion over a circle) into "game world" recoil, then you have a varying additional amount of pitch/yaw that can sometimes be vertical in either up or down directions as well as left / right, and intuitively, people will counter any game world recoil with camera (mouse movement), when spread is ultimately (and necessarily) meant to be countered with fire-rate.
In other words, when your dispersion not only moves the sight, but also the game world pitch/yaw an additional amount on top of the regular recoil values, then there is no longer a point of reference for when you have accumulated too much spread and need to come off the trigger, because both your sight and game world have moved to the last spread roll angle. Your "real" centre point, that is to say, where the sight will centre to after recoil and spread decrease has finished applying, is completely obfuscated from you.
If your target is no longer under the crosshair, you do not know to come off the trigger - instead you would try to correct with the camera to move them back under the xhair. As such, you end up "chasing the wiggle" - which as you point out, is a total crap shoot, and exactly what happens in BFV.
I'd actually rather they make all the spread be attached to the sight and none of it applied to the game world at all, at least then I could just screen dot, ignore the sight, and play the game intuitively.
What actually works as far as design, is for the game world recoil to simply be a very minor consistent base of yaw inaccuracy left-right on a continuum, with the sight and centre of dispersion stable in the middle of the screen, so you can see that your centre of dispersion is over the enemy and that if you are then missing, you therefore, logically, need to come off the trigger and allow spread reset.
Vertical recoil should only exist to provide satisfying firing feedback to the player, and isn't required to be randomised at all, nor needs to be any kind of pseudo-skill hurdle to overcome, since it can be manipulated by vertical mouse sensitivity and/or FOV selection to be as comfortable as anyone wants it to be anyway. The games with the most fun and engaging gunplay don't use high vrec values, and in those that do, players increase the FOV to minimise the perception of it as much as possible, which really should be a giant red flag / hint for devs.
TL:DR, the point of spread being separate to both the weapon sight and game world pitch/yaw recoil is to communicate to the player that it's time to come off the trigger, and since there is no such indicator in BFV's gunplay system, this is why it doesn't work. There's only one way to play BFV, mag-dump and chase both the game world and sight wriggling around, like trying to strangle a wild badger. Which pretty much everyone can easily do to about the same ability regardless of FPS experience or talent.
I know you're a Symthic community member without even looking in the discord
@@EndersFPS I'm in the discord but don't go there anymore. There's a few insightful original members, but most of the active people there are now just idiots posting shit memes and circle-jerking about what people post on reddit.
The other day I found out that some redditors are actually aware that BFV's recoil patterns are inconsistent but they LIKE IT that way because of two main " "arguments" ": it is 'realistic'' (what the fuck) and it helps to stop those pesky macro users, because if its one thing that BFV is good at, it's deterring the use of cheats in the game. LMAO.
You mean in the same game that has zero hrec and spreadless SARs which are practically begging for an autoclicker? 450 rpm auto-clicker on M1 = spreadless higher damage Fedorov with a bigger mag.
@@TheN00bPolice wait are you seriously telling me the M1 has no fire rate? So theoretically I could macro it to 99 rounds per seconds? I'm on console so obviously can't do it but is it true?
Caring what Redditors is the first mistake you're making
There are to many people who feel battlefield is, or should be a Mil-Sim.
@@LoneWolf-vu6qy And it's disturbing. It's not CoD levels of casual arcade but it's still a casual arcade shooter. If you wanted Milsim, go play Arma or one of those games.
for the longest time ppl always said how BFV had the best gunplay bec of no suppression and no spread. I used to say how it felt like the worst gunplay out of all the battlefields but i couldnt explain why. 2 years after release and someone finally looks in depth at the mechanics and they are actually trash af. Thanks for really looking into this game and disproving all the people saying it has the best mechanics
I mean I hit my shots in bf5 better than bf4 so idk
@@cjallenroxs6239 that’s sad. Bf4 literally has the best hit reg in all Battlefield games.
Same here. There was always something weird about bfV and I am glad that I was right. It wasn’t because I sucked as some people used to say. Bf4 is still the King and is my standard for good gunplay in Battlefield games.
@@SSaNNEE100 factually wrong
@@cjallenroxs6239 yeah
agree with everything you say but i fuckin hated suppresion. nothing tilts me faster than knowing my aim was perfect but DICE said im not allowed to shoot straight cz some noob missed me. honestly prefer the randomness and shots attached to sights cz atleast i can correct for it instead of having to rely on prayers.
suppression is dogshit, yes
Not gonna lie I miss BF3 SUPPRESSION. It balanced the weapons . I used the slow 620 rpm ScarL and because of SUPPRESSION and my awareness of situations when to shoot and when to regroup and retreat I could easily win fights against 900rpm aek's
Man .... I've always wondered why sometimes I'm unbeatable, next day it's a struggle to go positive... Between this and the god awful hitreg, 1 bullet deaths and dying around corners it's a wonder I haven't had a stroke.
yea its awfull im glad i didnt spend money on it.
BFV is the best because shots hit what the reticle is over, ie, the UI is not lying to you.
Not being tied to screen center is less important than the UI not literally giving you false feedback on your aim.
Not being able to master the recoil completely. Have you considered that this is intended? Weapon classes have roles that are not meant to be overcome with aim ability.
The FOV bugs and screen center stuff could be valid, but still BFV better than before simply because it's the first one with a functional aiming UX
Well said. Completely agree with you.
It makes jumping / moving completely useless before / during a gunfight, lowering the skill ceiling.
Not having it tied to screen centre makes it unpredictable and unreliable and is giving you false feedback because of it.
Yes it was intended and it hurts good players the most, essentially lowering the skill ceiling. "weapon classes have roles that are not meant to be overcome with aim ability" -- What does this even mean? It's an FPS game and you shoot people.
"Functional aiming UX" - Exactly the opposite. I love losing gunfights because the RNG decides to kick it out to the side.
@@griffin1366 being tied to screen center is not intuitive. Bullets go where the gun is pointed, not where your eyes are looking.
Yes, there is a designed cap on skill ceiling with shooting. One player who's very good with an SMG should not overcome, reliably, several players with weapons better suited for the engagement range. Likewise you are also not intended to defeat planes with tanks.
Game design goes beyond making people feel like their hours in CS GO will be rewarded with success despite ignoring teamplay and strategy.
@@ImminentDingo Yes it is? The problem with that is that the gun isn't always centre and depending on movement as well, it hurts good players once again and lowers the skill ceiling.
Problem with BFV is that either person at long range will have a hard time due to the randomness of the recoil and how exactly precise you have to be at range. Random recoil in that instance doesn't help either side.
You can only go so far in CS:GO with good aim and gunplay. It requires positioning, map knowledge, teamwork, game sense etc. which is why Counter-Strike in general is such a good game as it rewards teamwork no matter how good you are... Nerfing good players on the other hand is not a good way to do this.
@@griffin1366 no, it's not. There is no reason to assume shots go at center screen. That's not how guns work. If you want a game to deviate from real life, you need the UI to indicate what's happening.
If you have an SMG and I have a rifle, in BFV, you win at close range and I win at long range, even if you are a better shot. This is true. That's intended and it's a good decision. Removing the randomness would allow a try-hard player to win with the SMG reliably. That isnt changing the skill ceiling, it's moving the emphasis from skill at shooting to skill at tactics.
I'm afraid I'm one of those that thought BFV's gun play was better. I didn't understand what was actually happening. I was confusing suppression with aim in BF3, and BF4. And the visual recoil in BF1 bothered me, but I didn't understand that it didn't really effect where my bullets were going. Thanks for explaining this so well. Now I'm holding my breath that BF2042 doesn't use BFV's gun play.
Spread good.
The saddest thing is, is that with the removal of suppression and addition of somewhat actual recoil patterns for guns, BF5 had the potential to have the greatest gunplay system in the series. Nothing feels worse in BF4 or BF1 than missing your shots - even if theyre dead on the enemy - just because an enemy missed shots on you and suppressed you.
But then they added all this, and now that I push a flag with my ZK, Im not confident that I'll be able to engage enemies at 10, 20 and 30 meters away because the recoil will either work or it will not. If 2042 is BFV without its idiotic designs and without suppression, it will downright have the greatest gunplay the series has seen
Unfortunately, it seems like 2042's gunplay is more of the same from BFV, all the way down to the completely unusable hipfire on many weapons. Though I suppose it doesn't help that 2042 has high recoil, low spread, slow bullet velocity and huge maps. All of these things together make for an incredibly frustrating crossplay experience if you're on console, because PC players have an inherent unfair advantage in recoil control that console players unable to compensate for.
@@boyishdude1234 2042 guns have a lot of spread and the gunplay is nothing like bf5
@@s_for_short2400 Yesn't. It has "high spread" for its long distance engagements, relative to the weapon. Otherwise it has low spread on most guns, and the spread overall is exceptionally low compared to previous titles. There's a reason why PC players can just magdump at basically any relevant engagement range to get kills in 2042. At best, you might have to microburst the higher RPM weapons on occasion, but otherwise you always dump the magazine because that's how you output the most DPS.
The gunplay is indeed different from BFV's, which I wasn't aware of at the time, but only sort of. It doesn't have StRC, but it has IRM in addition to high recoil, which I would argue is just as bad, especially since the IRM is mostly applied to the VREC. Fundamentally the gunplay in 2042 is all down to magdumping and random recoil like it was in BFV, just without nearly as much random recoil due to the lack of StRC. This wouldn't be so bad if the game didn't have cross-play between console and PC, but you're forced to play with PC players if you want to have any hope of finding matches.
Unfortunately neither game has good gunplay. BF1 was the last game in the series to have that, and even then, the TTK patch kind of ruined that by making the SLRs and especially the LMG bipods complete cancer.
@@boyishdude1234 i play pc so i guess our opinions will differ on this matter. Though console players actually get less recoil, i think its around 20% less.
But i liked bf5 gunplay the most. I always knew where my shots were going. 2042 would probably have my favourite gunplay if they removed spread.
Also I dont get the hate towards StRC as i dont see how it forces you to play any differently to normal spread, it just makes it more obvious where your shots are going.
@@s_for_short2400 Console players don't get anywhere near enough reduced recoil to compete with the PC players. If they intend on having cross-play between console and PC from now on, console players need to have basically no recoil to compensate for the immense unfair advantage that PC players have due to being able to use a mouse without cheating.
The reason people hate BFV's gunplay is because StRC completely removes skill from the equation. StRC calculates the bullet spread, then updates the game world pitch/yaw recoil and your weapon sight to match where the spread is going to go. It does this for every shot that has bullet spread, and this spread is layered on top of the normal recoil, which is already both incredibly high and partially random. This effectively makes your weapon objectively impossible to control in all cases unless you fire short bursts of 2-3 shots with a certain window of time between each burst, since the first 2-3 shots don't have any spread (used to be 4-5 shots with no spread, but they nerfed that because it was too overpowered and easy to abuse), and because StRC updates your weapon sight and game world pitch/yaw recoil based on the spread calculations, this basically means that all players are going to think that they need to compensate for the spread not by coming off the trigger, but by using the analog stick/mouse to compensate for the additional recoil after it happens, making StRC a very counter-intuitive, poorly designed mechanic because it's giving the player the wrong information and is therefor misleading and unhelpful, despite supposedly being meant to help players by telling them exactly where their bullets are going (which is something BF1 already did with its bullet tracers and hitmarkers).
Another commenter on this video by the name of TheNoobPolice left a very informative comment on the subject that I highly suggest you read, but the TL;DR at the very end of it says the following:
_"The point of spread being separate to both the weapon sight and game world pitch/yaw recoil is to communicate to the player that it's time to come off the trigger, and since there is no such indicator in BFV's gunplay system, this is why it doesn't work. There's only one way to play BFV, mag-dump and chase both the game world and sight wriggling around, like trying to strangle a wild badger. Which pretty much everyone can easily do to about the same ability regardless of FPS experience or talent."_
To put it plainly, people hate BFV's gunplay because it's casual, counter-intuitive and doesn't have any depth, nor an appreciable skill-gap due to it being impossible to master most of the game's weapons, with what few master-able weapons that do exist besides bolt-actions/AMRs (SARs/SLRs) all playing in basically the same way due to a complete lack of spread and horizontal recoil. It's poorly designed, and there's not much more to say. It's just an objectively bad gunplay system, period.
Thank you for the detailed explanation, as if you are reading how I feel about Battlefield 5
The only advantage I can feel in Battlefield 5 is that the bullet feels long-range in terms of damage, which means the bullet travels a longer distance, unlike in Battlefield 1 when you shoot a bullet at a certain distance you feel it. Like shooting into space. Battlefield 1 at long distances does no harm.
To me it looks like the point of aim (the sight) is exactly in the center of the screen at all times when you shoot at 5:33 . Can you give an example where the point of aim is not in the screen center in BF5?
its not the point of aim all the time dude lol, you can clearly see the sight wobble everywhere cause the recoil is random. The intersecting lines make it harder to see
It'd more noticeable when you hipfire, the weapon starts swinging all over the place.
Thanks for the information, but I still think bf5 gunplay more enjoyable than bf1.
Even if it had good gunplay. It's also tied to a bad health resupply system
ye lol
Tbh that's the only reason I don't enjoy playing BF5 as much, I'm a solo player and it's sucks I have to be a medic or stay around medics...
medics with unlimited healthpacks, thats stupid seriously. medics with type2 weapon just cut through butter
Would love to see more videos like this analysing other FPS games !
just tie it to scvreen center again and im already happy thats how low standarts are lmao
XD honestly
bro please do the exact same test on BATTLEFIELD 2042 when it comes out pleaaaseeeee
lets pray that bf2042's gunplay doesnt end up like this. :pepepray:
and...bf 2042 gunplay sucks,bf v weapons was better.Better sounds,better hit reg,more recoil,feels heavier (like its real).bf 2042 gunplay is just cheap copy of cod mw
So based on that dev's recent posts (don't remember his name), the changes to point of aim you are speaking about actually occurred in BF1. BF1's point of aim is actually not tied to screen center anymore. The recoil is, but your bullets come out of your weapon reticle/sight just like BFV which is why optical weapons are literal cancer to use. I used an overlay with a dot reticle for the longest time bc I thought the visual recoil was just visual and could be ignored (it was at launch but I'll get to that) and could never figure out why I'd miss so much, especially with SLR's. Even subtle movements move the reticle from screen center and thats where your bullets come out of. Stopped using an overlay and started shredding again. It wasn't like that at launch it was something which was changed about a year into the game I believe (according to the dev you retweeted a couple weeks ago) and was brought into BFV from the start. You were retweeting that dev's tweets and in that list of tweets he mentions it stating that you shouldn't use an overlay in BF1 or BFV. Shit is absurd.
Enders, may I ask how do you set up that crosshair overlay? What application do you use?
Genuine question, how did the 2 recoil patterns match exactly @ 5:54 isn't there random recoil or am l not able to see it?
they dont match exactly but because I am closer to the wall its harder to see
@@EndersFPS thanks a lot!
Very insightful video. Hopefully, BF2042 rectifies all this. Would you say BFV has the best "Feel Factor" when you connect your shots though.
I wanna give my 2 cents about this video. You mentioned at the beginning of the video that BFV has the worst gunplay in the series. While I staunchly agree that aiming should be tied to screen-center, I don't think BFV is the worst. If we compare gunplay across the entire franchise, each game is flawed in distinct, but relatively frustrating ways.
In 1942 and Vietnam, gunplay was very simplistic - you couldn't truly ADS and guns were very clunky.
Battlefield 2142 and BF2 had virtually no recoil
Bad Company 1, 2 and 1943 introduced flinch which threw your sights way up into the air. Aiming down sights was also quite 'jittery'. Not to mention that fact that these games were designed from the get-go for consoles - Bad Company 1 and 1943 were console-exclusive for no reason.
Battlefield 3 introduced suppression which was so abysmal, it made Modern Warfare 3's gunplay look good. As you know, suppressive fire blurred your screen, increased sway, hipfire spread and a substantially increased recoil. In addition to these mechanics, laser sights, flashlights, god rays and visibility also indirectly deteriorated the gunplay.
Battlefield 4, in my opinion, had the worst gunplay at launch. For a few months, there was a glitch that applied the same hipfire spread while ADS if you kept firing during the transition between hipfire and ADS.
While BFV is certainly one of my least favorite Battlefield games (in F tier with Hardline), the lack of suppression, flinch and random recoil was a breath of fresh air. Let's hope DICE gets their shit together in 2042.
You just said BFV lacks random recoil?
@@rebranded1248 i meant it's not as noticeable or significant as previous games. I'm fairly certain that prior to BFV's release, the devs said there wasn't any random recoil; things could've changed since launch, but it's been 3 years and I forgot
@@WoodsBeatle DICE lied, and it would be more accurate to say that they lied about the game not having bullet spread. They just said that to appeal to the normies who hated BF1's gunplay without understanding how it worked.
BFV does have random recoil, it's just technically bullet spread. As Enders said, BFV converts spread into additional recoil, but what he didn't touch on is how that actually works. What this basically means is that you have the recoil pattern, which is fully consistent and can be controlled, and then you have spread, which is calculated separately and then converted into additional recoil that is layered on top of the recoil pattern, and the position of your crosshair is updated accordingly. This makes the recoil incredibly inconsistent, far more so than every other game in the series, and in turn impossible to completely control. In BF1, I can control the bullet spread no problem once I learn the shooting patterns; that's what I did with my MP18 Trench. In BFV on the other hand, I can't control the spread on my Tommy Gun no matter what I do because it being converted into additional random recoil that is separate from the recoil pattern makes it so my firing pattern has no affect on my accuracy. I'm only allowed to be accurate if the random recoil allows me to be.
BFV's gunplay isn't skill-based because the outcome of gunfights is entirely dependent on external factors that shouldn't be relevant like reaction time and RNG. My ability to be accurate in an FPS shouldn't be hindered just because I wasn't born with the godlike reaction times that are necessary to perfectly control a weapon's recoil, or because I didn't get lucky enough with my weapon's spread. My actual skill as a player, that being my memorization of the weapon's recoil pattern and the firing rates that I need to use to mitigate spread at different ranges should be the factor that determines my accuracy, not my biology and a series of randomly generated numbers. I find it quite ironic that people hated suppression because of the forced randomness it induced on their weapons, but they love an entire system of gunplay that is objectively worse just because DICE lied to them about it not having any spread.
@@boyishdude1234 you're right on the money. Though If I had to choose between the lesser of 2 evils, I would say BFV's gunplay is the least offensive in the Frostbite-era Battlefields. Suppression always felt more irritating to me personally, especially in BF3 if someone chose the increased suppression specialization.
@@WoodsBeatle That was really only a major issue in BF3. I almost never run into suppression in BF4 or BF1, and even when I do, it's far less extreme. It's objectively better to have a good gunplay system that is occasionally hampered by a bad mechanic like suppression or flinch, than it is to have a bad gunplay system that can't be made even worse by bad mechanics that aren't in the game.
Did you notice that your recoil animation was lagging so bad at 2:05? I've had this problem since BF4 release and it does this even in other Battlefield games. As far as I know it's an issue directly linked with Nvidia gpus. Doesn't it bother you? This drives me crazy because dice never even tried to address this issue. Please I hope you notice it
well thought out, digestible, and easy reference for new players of the franchise to understand. Great video Enders
This is the first game where i don’t play full automatic weapon cause of the bad recoil issue . I play Semi’s only and Dice needs to compensate me for my fore finger depreciation. I have over 1.5 million shots fired / clicks
for BF1 you say the bullets go to the screen center but they're going everywhere but the screen center. and in 5 they're going to the screen center all the time since there's no spread. also there's no such thing as spread control as spread is random. in BF1 the bullets are not going to the center of the screen or where the gun is pointing because of spread, not visual recoil. spread is random deviation of bullets. the sight is just shaking around the center of the screen, but the center of the screen is moving with it overall. what you call visual recoil is just a little animation. in BFV the bullets go where the gun points, and the center of the screen is also tied to where the gun is pointing, and the gun shakes, so there's no more spread, just recoil, and you at least know with a shaking gun that if you can bring it to point at an enemy, it will shoot him. I don't like BFV's gameplay because it makes assault rifles overpowered like in BF4 and you just get mowed down from a distance, it's less fun to be a sniper than in BF1. However it is a better simulation of the gun, which does away with a random deviation thrown in.
BFV gunplay always felt really bad to me, where i'll place the center of my screen right at an opponent and he wont take shots; which always baffled me when people said this gunplay was one of the best, as someone who has an average of 30-40% accuracy on almost all fps games I play I didn't get why I couldn't compete well in BFV compared to every other game i've ever played.
Dude same. I thought it was always me
@@chillman1828 Especially with all of the undeserved praise the gunplay got, I figured I was just not used to this game or something.
@@unacceptable6625 yeah. I remember when this game first came out I had to adjust the settings completely different than how it was on bf1’s. Ridiculous
7:50 when you start talking about Low FOV BFV Weapons recoil is uncontrollable, I thought I was having a bad time/enemy is way better than me because I didn't notice how many times my origin reset my settings.
I started playing on higher FOV awhile back so it's interesting to know why my recoil seemed so much more controllable.
Regardless though, after playing 5, I've noticed how annoying gunplay was in 4 and 1 where bullets dont go where you aim. There has to be a good solid middle ground because the most frustrating thing was when I would aim but my bullets seemed to say "no, I dont want to go there"
It's because you just need to adjust less at higher FOV than lower ones. All games that don't have random spread will have to deal with this issue at higher FOV's. I mean as long as they have ADS FOV since instead of pulling the mouse down a lot for recoil you just have to make a slight adjustment because sensitivity is designed around the ability to quickly turn/snap at people not recoil management.
The "real" issue with BF5 isn't it's gunplay but DPS (damage per second) on guns. BF4 "felt" better because guns had a faster TTK than BF5. In BF5 you can shoot a man 7 times and they won't die. Medics could instantly heal whenever they want so it could get above 10 shots. Everyone else hat one instant heal pack so on occasion if you shot them they would slide/heal or get into cover/heal instantly. So gunfights were way longer than they should've been.
Nobody talks about the dumbest mechanic in the game which is that everyone had the ability to quick heal once. This feature was even implemented in tanks/planes as quick repair. On top of that tanks had a repair button that heals over 3-5 seconds. Everyone blame all the issues around it the quick healing of the game but they never point at the quick heal as a faulty issue that makes everyone feel like bullet sponges, tanks almost impossible to kill, planes frustrating to fight against, etc.
Tanks could fix the tanks/planes rn by taking the quick repair out the game. Instead they gave AA deletion powers so once you're in range and the AA gunner is decent. You're dead. This resulted in people switching to rockets/explosive rounds and then realizing that "META" is actually better for getting high kills on pure infantry. An AA gunner is bothering you? No problem shoot your high explosive ammo at him from a distance as well as rockets to kill him off the AA gun... If they cared to really balance it instead of making AA more powerful they would just nerf the explosive rounds/rockets, and take out quick repair/regular repair ability from planes so every time they get out the range of AA they don't instantly heal. A slow repair of vehicles would've fixed that issue.
Then you got tanks. You can shoot 5 bazooka's at a tank and he can still be at 7 health just cause he popped the quick repair.
Back to gunplay he's merking people at the beginning of the video. He's controlling recoil really well. After all that he's claiming it's too "hard" to master like he's trash at the game... 5:35 He say's recoil is "random" but the pattern is exactly the same both times. Also it's screen center unlike what he believes. Left/Right recoil is odd but it's not random since the path is exactly the same every time. Each gun just has their own pattern. It's also an extremely slight left right pattern. Also people loved the gunplay until they fucked the TTK then they started blaming the gunplay instead of the TTK.
@@nicobenji0248 random spread is stupid. I'll take almost anything over random spread
You can control the spread in bf4 almost perfectly if you learn how it works. Bf1 tho.... that's a different story I do not wanna talk about
@@nicobenji0248 the other issue with tanks in BFV is the maps. Wide open maps with guys camping in tanks in the high fields lobbing shells at infantry. Almost impossible to counter as you can’t get close to them. Only way to counter is to use a plane. At least in BF4 engineers balanced out the tanks and the maps allowed some duck and cover.
After playing 3, 4, and 1 something has always felt off about the gunplay in V ever since I picked it up a month ago. Thanks for the info on why that could be the case
So I remember when DICE was talking about BFV, they said it would be "recoil patterns" that were predictable that you could master, but recoil would be a lot more extreme/intense to make up for lack of spread. If I'm understanding your video correctly, that... kind of seems to be a lie, other than recoil making up for spread, but in a different way than DICE even led us to believe. If I'm right, do you think that such a system (I've heard some say its similar to CSGO or R6 Siege but I don't actually know myself), could actually be good for a BF game? Or is that really the same thing? Like would an ideal recoil control system be better than the BF3/4/1 spread system? Or still not as good as spread, and why, what makes spread better then? Just wondering thanks. Really appreciated your video, redditors circlejerking things they don't even know about and are just objectively wrong about is sooo common on that cesspool of a website and soooo frustrating.
I thought that I am the only person who struggled with bf5 gunplay
I am stuck with fov scaling off. Can’t have it on anymore and yes recoil is much higher but it also makes it easier to see where the bullets are hitting. Was hard at first but now it’s getting much better but large scopes are hard to use coz of recoil is even higher on them;)
Ye its much easier to see with ADS FOV off, and I prefer it but the recoil is just fucked with it on now. It didn’t used to be like that back when the game first came out
@@EndersFPS Not with all weapons, but your favourite weapon is fccking impossible;) I play with Suomi and it’s manageable. The best thing is target switching. For me it’s much easier with it off .
Can't wait until this video is referenced 30 times every stream
I stopped playing V, but certainly going back in to try this! You've got skills and great info. Thanks for the videos!! Warstack.
Well even if people don’t agree your thorough
I heard that gunplay for 2042 is going to be like BFV and judging by the alpha it looks like a re-skin with how the revive system works. I wish they went with something completely new and fresh for each game they release like in halo. That’s how you convince players to really think your game is new. Make it feel different for every game.
It would be cool to have a different respawn system too where it’s like BF1’s Storm of Steele mission. Make it so you respawn into a random AI soldier after you die with some kind of war quote, game tip, and time stamp for how long that soldier lived to give immersion and context to the game. Make battles feel bigger than 120 players with AI soldiers to fight with like in Titanfall 2.
Have certain maps make you feel like you’re on an airbase being under attack. Hype us up with music like in that BF4 jet mission. Give us immersive things like airfields and AI military personnel to help get the jet to take off. Make the battle feel organic.
The more immersive and cinematic the experience the better (as long as it doesn’t interfere with gameplay..motion blur, too many cinematic scenes, too many detrimental weather effects, slow AI animations).
You could even have audio that adapts to your triggers to make gunfight experiences feel more intense. Just don’t use the same audio for every gunfight experience. Give us variation so every experience feels new and authentic.
I miss having that interactivity where the menus felt like a smooth experience of being above earth and seeing an interactive map that gives context to the map you’re playing like in bf1 operations. I’d like to see a return to that with more random cinematic scenes to make each match feel fresh.
From what I see, I think Dice should take another year or two and create an entirely new gunplay experience. Continue filling the game with more maps, weapons, and vehicles in the meantime until a release when it’s ready; so the game starts off jam-packed with even more content. Give us all the maps, weapons, and vehicles from all the battlefield eras.
Take time off and do it right, so micro-transactions feel like an after thought. This would make this game have a lifecycle like GTA 5 imo having all eras, maps, weapons, vehicles, etc. sorry for the long comment. It’s all just ideas and wishful thinking.
Some peeps on the battlefield server thought guns had set recoil patterns, and they stood by that even when I described how it works...
How is it different than BF4's random spread?
This what Colonial Marines did! That infamous game, it tied point of aim to sights and then sights shook a lot with sway like cod games. So it was a pain to play
so many random things in this game ... i try to understand the recoil to but i give up, one day new setting feel great, the other day it suck and i comeback
I literally change my settings to try to find the ones that "feel" best that day
@@8minato Sticking with 1 setting in this game doesn't matter. I have stuck on the same settings for a very long time before, but it ultimately doesn't matter. I'd say it really doesn't matter in general to change settings, and sometimes it's even good to change settings. It's all about comfort
@@EndersFPS exactly, i know ads fov turn on is better but i keep it off because i'm use to it for 10 years
Great video man, I play on console and pc, I always wondered about how recoil was implamented in this game. It always felt off with every gun. I agree with you 100% about your opinion on this issue.
You got a sub man, been looking at your content, good stuff man.
In bf1 all automatic weapons felt terrible to shoot the random spread made it so you could never get better at any weapon. In bf5 I could feel how i was getting better and better at controlling the recoil of the m2 carbine for example, where in the beginning it felt like very high recoil now it feels like its not even there i can laser people over 100 meters sometimes. This makes me enjoy the game more and want to play it more where the past systems made me want to play less with this ramdom spread bullshit...
You can literally not control BFV recoil. It is impossible. It’s random, ok? You can’t “control” it. BF1 forces you to actually have game knowledge and good decision making so you use the right weapons for the right situations. The reason why people dislike spread is because they’re bad
@@EndersFPS Impossible? Ive see many of your videos and you are so good at controlling bf5 recoil you make it look like no recoil and aimbot :D.
And I dont think i dislike spread because im bad i have 4.2 average infantry kd in bf5, not as good as you of course but i cant stand spread, i prefer when my shots hit when the reticle is on point. No offence tho i like you and your rants about stuff :D
@@MrDanny1911 Not even I can control the recoil.
@@MrDanny1911 ye i too hated the bf 1 spread..eventhough bf5 has the random recoil, atleast i can see where the bullet will hit visually
@@axeonhand exactly :)
I play with 50 lav and have no issue controlling recoil
And yet people want BFV gunplay in 2042, yikes. I knew it felt weird last time I tried it but I didn’t know things were this bad
Could you do a video with the best guns for Bf1?
i think its a little late for that
@@EndersFPS 😢
I don’t like suppression or spread, but I do think that it should to be tied to screencenter!
so is it better to play with ads affect on or off
its kinda personal preference but id say ADS FOV on
BF1 & BF5 are absolutely the WORST battlefield I ever played in my life
How come I can go 80+ kills on hardline but barely even reach 20 on BF1 & BF5
It’s clearly not me, it’s the broken mechanics & the praise to passive players who just want camp without being seen
Thats sad because i went from 80 to 120-150 alot in bf5
Just came across this and wow it’s crazy that people would ever think that. I loved sniping in bf5 after playing so much BF1 bc it felt like there was so much more skill involved without the sweet spots. Sniper battles came down to skill as opposed to who happened to be in the better range so you could hit any part of the hit box and 1 shot win.
I never knew these technicalities about BF5 gunplay, but even I subconsciously figured this all out bc I changed the ADS fov on/off for sniping and fully raised my FOV on console for recoil! It was unbelievable the difference with a big FOV and no ads fov and the game was so different once I learned that. Like you said, the gunplay was just so wrong in BF5. People loved it bc they removed suppression, weakened shotguns, and got rid of OP sniping. They didn’t make anything better, they just removed things making it worse and then ruined a fundamental feature of gunplay with the random control/recoil
"on console"
The console versions have less recoil
Sweetspots are skill-based? Players don't just "happen" to be at a better range. It's called positioning. And you can't one-hit kill with a sweetspot unless you hit the upper chest. It's not like MW2 snipers where you can one-shot even if you hit their toe.
With bigger movements the targets also get bigger tho right? I still hate the system to clarify
Yes, and the actual recoil is unchanged. However, at a lower FOV the visual feedback you receive is more erratic because of the magnification and this might negatively affect how you make corrections (see explanation at 9:00).
@@stangenbrecher5458 oh ok, I think its bad anyways
These past years I have been switching between bf1 and bfv and I kind of disagree here on 1 thing and it's thr bf1 attrition I will always prefer having the sight physically represent being "off" than bullets strafing is either that or making the hitmakers really make a mark where they hit and not screen center, picture this: BF 1 empire's edge conquest taking F as an italian alone with the memematico 6 v 1'ed the flag but keep on 17hp then you mag dump the gun on someone at 20 meters only to find that 20 of the 25 bullets went where your crosshair wasn't, the sight getting of the center is the reset indicator
Tysm for this, help my kd be back to +
The amount of people that are ignorant to these types of things is insane. Great that somebody with good knowledge made a video on this.
smurff?
@@WoodsBeatle woods?
So because people like it they're ignorant? LMFAO, ok
@@wben7833 yeah. Who in there right mind likes having no control of where their bullets go? unless they aren’t the best player and think it’s more “fair” lmao.
@@OGSmurff if you can't kill people in bfv you have problems.
In regards to tying recoil to screen center, I agree it's cancer, but wouldn't it be comparable to the recoil in mainstream games like Valorant and CS where you have to aim at someone's feet to hit them with sprays?
No
You don't aim low in CSGO or Valorant and let the recoil do the work. You memorize the spray pattern, which is always the same, then aim wherever you want and start pulling down in the directions opposite of the pattern to negate recoil and spray.
@@nikurou9025 Yeah but he said "(paraphrasing) not having centrescreen be aim point is bad, *especially* with random recoil" insinuating that is is still a problem without random recoil with is retarded when csgo and valorant exist
How do you add the lines?
I just had a transparent PNG with them and I overlayed it when I was editing
I've noticed this same occurrence. You are correct.
When battlefield 1 came out, youtuber Xfactor said he hated spread and wanted a system to what you just described V has...
Thanks X...
Well the gunplay and guns are way more fun to use than bf1's. The only gun that was enjoyable in bf1 is the m95 infantry. Bf1 had the worst guns and worst mechanics. Random bullet spread. All weapons had same recoil and it was visual recoil so you had to guess or use 2 lines to know what the center of the screen is.
@@Xivinux yes, bf1 gunplay was weird that large mag guns certainly didn't help to see that through long bursts. but what i meant is that people advocated for a no spread system like battlefront 1. and that honestly doesn't belong in a bf game.
Doesn't BFV also have spread? Otherwise why would there be gun specialisations to make your gun more accurate? There are separate specs to improve recoil as well so they are not interchangeable.
So not only do they have random recoil, but they have spread as well.
yeah i've wondered what that specialization means as well, since i've personally seen there's no spread, the bullets really go where the gun points. I have a video of it here. th-cam.com/video/-isjU7v0DNk/w-d-xo.html
I agree that spread to recoil conversion is bad , and simply masking spread which is the worse imo.
but dude BF1 had spread or deviation literally on the first bullet you shoot in some guns (try SL the medic class gun)
imo BFV gunplay is far from perfect ofc , but I will take it any day over BF4 and BF1 simply because when I ads and have my crosshair
ed dot on someone I expect to hit , not to get RNG bullet spread BS
I really don’t have a problem with medic SLR accuracy in BF1. I regularly shoot 35%+ with them and maintain 4+ KPM
@@EndersFPS no man the gun is all over the place espicially at range , what I would call accurate for example is RSC medic.
anyways BF1 game play was pure RNG imo and by the looks of it BF42 will have no recoil so Billy-noThumps can lazer you from 100 m with his aim assist no problem
@@s_t_r_e_l_0_o_k818 naaah man trust. Go watch my BF1 videos. The visual recoil is lying to you
@@EndersFPS and btw if you want to see a good recoil scheme for a BF game , try Insurgency SandStorm gunplay , it is not as hard as Tarkov , but also not so noob friendly and ppl need to learn it
Get out of here stalker!
my fav gunplay in a vacuum (ignoring the movement etc) is bf4's followed very closely by bf3's
movement was the most abuseable in bf4 aswell :D
It appears that people who learn and do stuff like this have less knowledge than the consumer...
Pretty sure they tied point of aim to the optic on 2042 as well... because they have the same ads fov issue as this game
🍿
I cringe when people say they want battlefield 5 gunplay in battlefield 2042. This game is rotten from the core
Great vid Enders. respect
You continually state that BF V has objectively worse gunplay. You couldn't be farther from the the truth. Bloom, or as you'd call it "bullet spread" is an arbitrary mechanic that doesn't allow for improvement on the player's part. Bloom is an objectively bad mechanic, and it is at the center of BF 1's gameplay; making it almost impossible to consistently use automatic weapons. BF V's weapon are based off of where the actual placement of the weapon itself, allowing for a CONSISTENT way to control the weapon rather than being left at the hands of inconsistent code. So if you whole heartily want to speak from an objective point of view, you're wrong, along with your terminology.
💀skill issue. You really are just to bad to handle spread lol
@@Kuchen.Spread is not meant to be handled
There's no objective point of view in this topic. It's depends on the devs intention on the gunplay.
I would choose BFV gunplay 100% of the time over bf1/4 gunplay, because it is much more rewarding to control recoil over spread, even tho this youtuber thinks the recoil is "literally impossible to control". But the devs chose spread on the older games because they want to disincentivize long range engagement with full auto weapons, so if you want to be precise, you have to tap fire, or the spread will kick in.
As the other guy said here, spread is not meant to be handled, but it can be managed, if you know what I mean.
But yeah. Saying BFV gunplay is the objectively worst is just dishonest. But if someone disagree with him, he will just respond with "didn't you pay attention to the video?" or some shit like that. Like yeah, I saw the video, and I saw how none of your bullets went to the center of the screen on BF1.
doesn't modern warfare have same system as bfv?
BF1 spread is fine, it's suppression that's the problem.
thank you for being intelligent
increased SIPS on suppression is fine, in fact it's good and serves a useful gameplay purpose. increased recoil and figure-8 sight sway, however, is not.
Dude I love your videos , first I ran into your movement video which was 🔥🔥🔥🔥 and I totally agree. Now this one is even more of a eye opener and it explains why I hate bf5
Rng doesn't belong in gun play. Or if it is there is needs to be very minimal. I want to learn the recoil patterns of my guns and I want to improve my aim, none of that matters if you have spread or random recoil. You can't anticipate rng, I mean it's in the name, its fucking random, and it's not like you can react to spread or random recoil either and because of this rng removes skill, and that's a massive problem for obvious reasons. That said, for some reason playing infantry in bfv feels more satisfying than in bf4, and I can't put my finger on why. I know a lot of people probably think that saying that is fucking heresy, but for some reason that's the way I feel.
RNG is fine in gunplay if it's done in a way that is at least communicated to the player and has a clear counter
@@EndersFPS Fair enough, but if its predictable, or has a trend that you can count on its not completely random if that makes sense.
People have bastardised the word “random” to mean “cancer” in gaming which is not in the least bit appropriate for how the functions are used mathematically - you use random functions to create reproducible and consistent results with more depth. The random function creates a way to control damage output without bullet sponge damage models, and the control is in the timing of the increase and decrease of dispersion which is entirely in the hands of the players fire-rate timing, the randomised direction of dispersion is actually irrelevant to that, but is necessary to prevent the dispersion being countered entirely by camera movement only which is not the intent and would reduce the cognitive requirement of the player - if you aim center mass to a hitbox, the first 3 bullets hit and the 4th accumulates to much dispersion and misses, it matters not which tangent angle it disperses to, the point was to stop firing before the 4th shot came out in the first place. In a spread-based game players have to use both camera movement and fire-rate control, in non-random recoil pattern games players only need to use camera movement. It’s LESS depth, not more.
People who say randomised dispersion is bad for a skill based game have zero comprehension of how the quantities interact on a mathematical level and don’t understand a thing about either the gameplay design intent for the player or about what needs to occur
programmatically in order to make a gunplay system have a high level of depth.
If ever I see someone say “RNG” in video game discussions in any derogatory context they may as well have just put a sign on their head broadcasting their single-digit IQ.
@@TheN00bPolice You see with your dispersion argument I disagree with you. I think there should be set recoil patterns and if you start missing shots at range it should be because of you being unable to control your guns recoil, rather than a random number generator saying fuck you. If you want to limit how many shots someone should fire in the spray, change the recoil pattern so that it is more difficult to mag dump. Using rng to force dispersion leaves no room for you to distinguish yourself from worse players, you either cut your burst short like everyone else and have no advantage for you aim and recoil control, or you keep shooting and hope for the best, either way you are taking your aim and recoil control out of the equation and you are putting in a hard barrier for how far they can get you in your gunfights. Whereas if you adjust recoil to try to limit damage output people have the option to learn the recoil pattern and shoot for longer, allowing them to get more damage out than someone who can't control the recoil as well. If you use rng you force everyone to stop shooting at a certain point in their mag, whether they are good or bad, if they want their shots to be predictable and go where they are aiming that's where they have to stop, whereas if you use recoil to limit damage output you give players the chance to learn that recoil and pull ahead of players who didn't. You have a skill gradient where everyone controls recoil a little differently, rather than just having people who know about a mechanic and people who don't. RNG has some place in games, but not in gunplay. When I shoot, I want my shots to go to the same place relative to my crosshair every time, that way I can learn the gun and improve, rather than just hoping for the best, or cutting my spray short and dieing every once in a while to the person who is trying their luck. If you are dying to a mechanic in a game that is out of your control it is a bad mechanic, sure in your example there are workarounds, but that doesn't stop a bad player just getting lucky, and it doesn't stop a good player just getting unlucky. Judging by your arrogance i don't think I'm going to change your mind, but this is my stance on this point, disagree with it if you want.
@@Bllksem you are literally just demonstrating my point, you are still trying to argue that the dispersion should be countered by camera movement. It shouldn’t, that’s the whole point. You are trying to argue that by moving the camera you should be able to control the weapon, the whole point is you will always lose control of the weapon unless you also pay attention to rate of fire, which is entirely it do with “clicking” and nothing to do with moving the mouse.
I hope this video finds its way to dice
My worst experience is when you shoot someone that isn't shooting and they're able to shoot you and kill you with one bullet even though rounds had already entered their body first.
Well why didn't you kill them . Sounds like your just not good.
@@ozmonkey6713 yep that's it, but it looks like you aren't that good at reading...
Thank you enders i tried to put my FOV to the max and yeah its so accurate and no recoil. Pls do this also on battlefield 2042.
Guns just don't feel like they have weight or oomf similar to the movement. BF1/BF4 had much better gun play and movement it had weight and the Guns felt unique and hearty.
Okay but if bf5 had a fixed to center point of aim in what way would it be worse than bf4? As you said, its just a spread to recoil conversion. Isnt it then the same gunplay? How does converting spread to recoil change the way you play?
Because when spread is converted into more recoil, it makes the recoil you receive totally random and totally unpredictable. Whereas, in older bf games, bf3,4, hardline and 1, you know when spread is affecting you and you’re able to take action to fix it
@@favic27 spread is unpredictable aswell. So just stop firing when the recoil gets too much?
@@s_for_short2400 no, spread is predictable. You know in bf1 when you’re suffering from high spread. In bfv you don’t know when you’re suffering from increased spread.
@@favic27 i disagree. I find it harder to notice spread. With recoil i know to stop shooting when my reticle goes off target.
@@s_for_short2400 Wdym you disagree the gunplay is totally random, the amount of recoil you receive is different every time while you’re just playing the game normally. There’s more things that affects spread than just sustained gun fire. Every time you jump you receive different amounts of recoil. Every time you crouch you receive different amounts of recoil. Every time spam fire a gun you receive different amounts of recoil. Every time you prone you you receive different amounts of recoil. Every time you strafe you receive different amounts of recoil. Everything you do changes the amount of recoil you get. It’s always different every time you play. It’s totally unpredictable, it’s humanly impossible to predict the amount of recoil you will get when you fire.
This happens when each time the Battlefield devs, for some unknown goddamn reason, try to completely reinvent the FPS wheel. Every. Game.
That's why it felt so "delayed" or "muddy" to me the whole time...
I'm in love with this game's movement, but the gunplay feels kinda weird sometimes. (I play on independent fov, I should change it)
@enders
Just got suggested this video in my feed... Guess even the youtube algorithm knows
Awesome video mate, you broke that down really well. The last 3 titles with 3 differing mechanics, why do they have to change it. If it ain't broken (bf4 gunplay) don't fix it.
I always wondered why it was so much easier to beam kids on max FOV
thank god someone with a functionating Brain is explaining Reddit Boomers and oblivious People whats on with the Game
Also bro did you see the beta if it had the same shit?
I actually like that the bullet goes where the sight is looking at. I love it that way. I play on 85 fov with ads fov ON and when sniping I put it off. I disagree with your video but nonetheless good video with some good information in it
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck pay attention dude lol. If it's tied to screen center it's naturally going to represent where you are aiming far better
@@EndersFPS then its better to always play with those screen center lines if you ask me. I'd rather watch the dot or the irons which move around than use the screen centre lines as my aiming point.
@@Xivinux Thats not the point here. Literally any fps game SHOULD have it tied to the middle of the screen. It allways has been
@@magnus6683, so then no sway or anything like that? Or would the sway just be a visual thing and have no impact on gunplay?
tried sharing this on reddit they just got mad lol
Yeah…… thats typically the result
honestly, battlefield 3 has the best gunplay for me
Seems like an accurate analysis. And, well, explains why BFV's is better than others in the serie, with BF1 at one of its worst. That one seemed completely arbitrary, like playing CSGO or another shooter where you have to just "learn" how weapons track on screen and move your mouse based on that. Wow, how fun.
In the overall context of movements and the feeling of the physical world of BFV, i think they did their best work in the series, until now. Let's see where it's taken in 2042, i hope further and less toward COD again. I doubt it because money but hopefully we'll have something in the middle.
Are you really defending random recoil and then hating on CS:GO? Oh jeez, back to reddit with you.
no cap i think this vid might blow up
If we put it that way,bf3 is the best,but it sure doesnt look the best.
Finally a good explanation of this topic
The only good thing I like about BFV is the movement 🤙
Movement yes , but they nerfed speed and jumping which makes being EVASIVE dog water
Yeah, getting body blockd by retard teammates and getting stuck on a tiny pebble on the floor is certainly great.
Can't hit anything from even point blank in this game. I am not a gamer so I don't want to be testing settings in the little time I have to play. So I deleted the game. The overall feel of the game is glitchy
Wait what? I gotta see this
My main issue is just that the guns don’t feel like they have weight to them, downgrade from bf1
“Because what aiming is at a basic fundamental is, you’re putting the screen center over somebody and shooting them. And changing that is uh, stupid, and should never be done.”
Counter Strike players *needed* to hear this the most even if it’s by inherent design from the 90s. Game teaches you to stay fixated on the wrong FPS lessons just from aiming alone. The Follow Recoil update for CS2 has since mitigated it considerably, but that was still over 10 years of new players learning to shoot someone in the torso to hit a headshot.
I think they would do well to ape MW2019's gunplay in which recoil is tied to the center of the screen, but a slight left to right bounce and idle sway are decoupled from the camera.
The fact that this game is free should tell you enough right there
Another great example of how they messed up the game’s direction, people who defend it point out that this is more realistic but this isn’t Red orchestra or Rising storm and even then those games have better gun play (and imo better game overall) with different target audience (it’s “accessible realism”, still it’s not BF players want from BF)
1. What about BF2 and BF3?
2. I feel like the game can still be fun without really f*cord up aim mechanics that I agree need to be changed. My biggest thing with this game is the immersion from playing it. I feel like that’s really what seperates BF games from games like COD. COD has always been more arcadish and focused more on gunplay while BF is generally more focused on the immersion and the experience. I really do hope they fix the aim and snap it back to center screen though for BF2042
Never played BF2, but BF3 is pretty much the same as BF4 give or take
Bf2 had the hardest recoil to control of any bf game
Wait so then how can you say that BF5 is the worst in the franchise if you can’t compare it to all the games. Isn’t that cherry-picking?
@@Ldyoung out of the games that matter? His argument is fine. No one cares about a game that came out over 15 years ago when it comes to what he's trying to reference, as it still would be just like the others he mentioned and tied to screen center. Cmon man.