Thanks for having me on LS, I'm glad we finally were able to talk about the game together. I came out understanding your view a lot more, and even though we don't fully see eye to eye on a few things, I think it was a productive conversation and I hope we can chat again soon! Cheers
I agree. I have been following them both for years and I have leveraged their content to success in and outside of league. Wonderful to see them discuss topics in-depth!
The majority of high elo players giving advice have no understanding of low elo because their only contact with it is stomping every lane until Emerald+ so they have no ideia how it really goes for people actually there. If you throw me on bronze, my impression will be that it's unloseable but that's not the reality of my bronze friends
@@mitsuki1388and they all criticised Neace… cause he was giving iron to gold players practical advice instead of high elo fundamentals advice, half of them cried “ohh but you wouldn’t do that” when reviewing Neace’s coaching to these silver players.
The reason for that is that the more deeply you understand something, the more you realize that things that seemed simple once are actually much more complicated to fully understand. Things that once seemed easy now make you flinch when they're explained in simple, ultimately reductive and imprecise terms. You now know they're not fully right, ergo wrong. And so you struggle to explain things to someone in a way they understand because basically, to get laymen into a topic at first you have to teach them wrong things. Take for example natural sciences and math. For a lot of the things you learned in Highschool, you'll find when you study them in a university setting that a lot of the rules you learned about either have exceptions or simply don't exist but were taught just for simplicity's sake.
Loved the discussion, and this has nothing to do with league or anything, but Curtis at the end was very open and acknowledged his misstep in his articulation of LS in his podcast, and he was open about how something you did has probably hung over him for some time. I just wish LS had apologized in return to Curtis for how he unintentionally slandered Curtis in the past.
@@alexandrul.9910 He could still apologize for his poor way of expressing himself but LS doesn't see anything wrong with what he did so he didn't apologize, because he thinks he's right.
That's the thing I love about Curtis, both in game and real life it seems he always openly acknowledges his responsibility and mistakes. He actually made a video retraction over a video he made covering a low elo player's perspective
I agree with Curtis I think league is difficult enough to understand especially for new players. Complicating things by using language or suggestions that have to be deciphered just over complicates an already complicated situation.
I agree specifically for people new to MOBA/RTS. They just won't have the knowledge to break down 10cs/m into its component parts without investing hundreds of hours into the game, often without a clue of what specifically they're doing wrong.
Exactly ! However LS approach can bear "juicier fruits" since people who figure out things themselves actually learn thise skills and it becomes second nature to them. It is basically gambling..
Hahaha Curtis is too funny, his bluntness/phrasing at some points was cracking me up. Big props to both guys, ultimately striving for a similar goal of playing the beautiful game in the best way possible.
I can see both sides of the 10 CSPM argument, and it fundamentally comes down to teaching styles. As someone who's made teaching their trade, all my education classes I took in college, along with all my experience since makes me want to agree with Curtis. I agree with LS in the sense that if you want someone to truly excel and become an independent learner, they need to figure out stuff on their own. But it's important to have a foundation that you can build upon with time. This is why the statement "Focus on 10 CSPM" is kind of misleading. Some people with the right mindset, experience, and insight can intuitively break it down to the various concepts that one needs to master to become an efficient player. This does not apply to most people, and I would argue it doesn't even necessarily apply to people who have reached high peaks in other games with a high skill ceiling. It's better to assume the lowest common denominator unless you're personally familiar with their capabilities, so as to not confuse the individual and expend more effort in teaching them the things they need to know. Instead of giving the 10 CSPM advice, it is far more productive to give them a foundation. For example: the difference between a good and bad gank (setup, summoner spells expended, wave states, volatility); win condition assessment (which team is favored early/late, what objectives to emphasize, which lanes to gank to get ahead and snowball); efficient jungle clearing and pathing toward win conditions; map awareness; jungle tracking; and basic macro. If you help them understand the components, even if overwhelming at first, their continued learning will be far easier to promote. Ultimately I think that's the part of this debate that appeared to be lost in this video. They both have a point, but whereas LS' teaching methods are better suited for experienced players with sophisticated understandings of competitive video games, Curtis' methods are more agnostic and applicable to everyone, regardless of their background, mindset, experience, and insight. Both common academic opinion on this subject, and my individual experience teaching students of all competency levels align with the idea that specific advice is better than general advice as a starting point.
I too work in education but specifically something more akin to special ed. Basically I'd go in classes with kids that might have struggles that might impair their understanding or ability to follow a class. What I do on a day to day basis ressembles Curtis' method of coaching in the sense that I might have to go take one's hand over a longer period of time so that they're able to make progress. I could be for example accompanying a kid with ADHD and simply ask the correct questions at the right time (did you hear what the teacher said ? did you understand the last point ? can you explain to me then ?) and to that extent I can then understand where LS' coming from because you should (IMO) strive to make someone autonomous and accountable in the long run. The metrics that LS' bring forward should be seen as a tool that most should be able to utilize and understand to perfect aspects of their game, but I do agree that Curtis' way of doing things should probably be a standard in lower elos.
the idea of 10cs per min is this first i understand intuitive learning i have played league reached apex tiers among different games the thing that i found that doesnt matter what type of game your playing it doesnt matter what is actually known to be better all of these things are bullshit the best methods of winning is the one that requires you to do nothing in order to win thus the 10cs per min came from if somebody at lower mmr does anything beside farming is less likely to win so the idea is if he just try to focus only and only in farming its probably his best way of improving because u could try anything from understanding how to teamfight or gank these things changes every game and sometimes it require a great knowledge of understanding and skills to pull off as i said if somebody quite literally at low mmrs which is 80% of the playerbase they will win more i'm not talking in theory here this is real players are often so bad that not doing anything will make win more thats the whole idea of it
LS just can't see practicality. He wants whatever he thinks is the "right" answer, to be done every time. He just can't accept that things like Pro's preferences, comfort, familiarity, etc...
@@joshpointoh i think thats a disingenious framing of it, he may often disregard those factors because more often than not, those factors are barriers that prevent you from actually getting better. we have seen plenty of examples through the years where players havent played a champ in many many months, and just pull it out in a match simply because the champ is extremely good in that situation, we know that great champs win games regardless of comfort. relying on comfort makes it harder to actually see those angles.
Awesome conversation. really showing how two people can respectfully disagree and understand each others points of view and not just talking in circles. Love both Curtis and LS a lot to be learned by everyone listening to them hash it out.
Yes, I'm about 30 minutes in taking an adhd break in the comments, and I've realized that they aren't going to end this conversation on the same page. It's entirely a case of "We think a different type of communication is more efficient, based on the demographic we interact with." There are cases where LS is correct, short term, high goal, "figure out the steps" being the correct method, and there are also many situations where you need to actively tell someone "plan this, do this, be here, watch this timer, recall at this moment" for them to understand what the problems in their gameplay are.
About the 5 minute mile comparison, I’ll give my opinion as a university runner. One common training mistake is that if you want to run X race (mile, 5km, etc.) is that you should just run the same event at maximum effort every time and eventually you will get faster. This doesn’t work, and there are many components to getting faster at running including: vo2 max, lactate threshold, type 1 muscle fiber endurance, type 1 muscle fiber power, type 2 muscle fiber endurance, type 2 muscle fiber power, running form, aerobic fitness, body weight, nutrition, hydration, etc. Telling someone to get 10 cs per minute every game, would be akin to saying “aim for a beyond maximum effort pace” every time you go for your run. We know from exercise science that this is the worst advice you can give someone. For 99% of runs and running workouts, you should not be going maximum effort, let alone beyond maximum effort. Curtis’ (and many people’s) issue is that the “10 cs/min” is a useless and even dangerous educational piece of advice.
While this is an interesting perspective, I would argue that the training for sports and for games works on a fundamentally different level, as if you attempt to go beyond maximum effort pace, you won't be able to train effectively again for a while due to exhaustion and the physical damage that training can deal to the body, with gaming however if it doesn't go well you can just load up the next game and immediately implement any new knowledge or skill with no degree of loss incurred
@@brendanmulcahy5935 I think the physical load of a workout is akin to the mental load of actually giving it a hard effort in a game. Sure you can do it for longer, but the mental load in game means u can only work on a thing at a time, and breaks are important.
@@brendanmulcahy5935 Fundamentally it works the same actually, doing things that you can't do and seeking highs that can't be obtained isn't a way to achieve progress, because you quite literally can't do it. You can just load up a game, but mental fatigue is a thing, our brains are lazy by default and can't learn too much new information at a time, that's how you get burnt out and don't truly apply everything. The problem is that 10 cs/m on it's own doesn't tell you anything really, because the advice itself doesn't give any information without further context, at which point you are just looking for context which is a whole new information that only ties into it.
I think it's the complete opposite. Trying to get 10 cs/min while trading, tracking enemy jungler, roaming etc would be akin to going maximum effort. Just getting 10 cs/min would be closer to choosing one of the things you said "vo2 max, lactate threshold, type 1 muscle fiber endurance, etc" and training that one specific thing.
Most experienced league players understand what LS is alluding to. The problem is Ludwig is not experienced. He wouldn’t be able to extrapolate the meaning and would just take 10cs/min at face value.
Telling a low elo jungler to try and get 10 cs per minute means they are going to be taxing after every gank, smiting minions, etc. People just aren't smart enough to understand what he means and how to get there.
@jeffstut55 What is 'experienced'? Do you mean emerald+ with X amount of games played or time played? Because experienced is subjective. I know emerald players who have been playing for less than 2 years, for example. They are dumb in regards to a lot of the game. I wouldn't call them experienced. Adversely, I know hardstuck silver and below players who have been playing for 7+ years (some even started in s1 when I did) and they still don't have a clue about the game. Even the ones that do know, struggle to figure out how to get to where they need to be to achieve what their knowledge of the game is.
@burritogod59 Also, saying 10cs/min is literally unachievable for a low rank. They won't clear or back optimally enough to do so, which ofc means they will do what you are saying since in their mind they need to be as close to 10cs/min. I have several diamond ranked jungle friends that have no clue about the jungle really. They know their clears on their champs, but they struggle to know when to back early, when to delay doing camps, when to alter clears, etc. I can only imagine a low rank jungler and how much they struggle in terms of knowledge. I'd almost bet any amount of money that Ludwig could hit silver just purely by mastering his first clear and back timing. I haven't watched him play, but I'd bet any amount of money that he doesn't do his first clear optimally and probably takes a lackluster first recall; which LITERALLY can be the difference between you snowballing the early game vs you being behind early game. If you are a jungler below diamond, master your first clear and focus on your early recall timings. I am telling you that you will 100% climb just purely from doing that. Everything else will just come with more reps and experience. 'OK last time I was in this scenario, I did Y and X bad thing happened. I am going to try Z instead this time!' Your first clear is about as set-in-stone as anything will ever be in the jungle, which is why maximizing your efficiency there is the best 'will carry over to every game' thing you can do as a jungler.
If you're taxing lanes because you take the 10cs/minute that literally, then you're just a complete moron. It's meant to show you how slow you play. If you're an average 5cs JG player, you need to be aware that it's a problem. Anyone who is already seeking league content could easily open a canyon steam and compare how they clear jungles. If you have a brain, this is what you would do to find out how to achieve this 10cs goal.
I enjoyed this so much because I’ve watched both of these guys for years and they finally get together and have a chat. Both great minds when it comes to league. It just goes to show that league/league coaching can be viewed and executed in many different ways. I look forward to seeing LS on the BBC. (Pun intended)
Okay, so I haven't watched any of this yet, but I want to say this right away; I've followed LS for many years now, starting some time in 2017 if I remember correctly and I always thought that he is a massively important figure for the scene and extremely smart about the game but I also always felt that he is a terrible teacher to actual beginners and obviously sometimes has trouble conveying his thoughts in a way that doesn't come off as arrogant or condescending to other people. Curtis has been very influential to me, especially when it comes to mindset and how to approach the game as whole. I've been listening to the Broken by Concept podcast on and off for a few years as well. In the latest episode Curtis and Nathan talked about LS and Curtis said that LS doesn't even recognize his existence and honestly, I could totally see LS behaving that way. Seems like I misjudged him and I'm very happy to see these two having a talk together and discussing their thoughts about the game eye to eye.
Hey LS, your ideas are so fundamentally true that I was able to apply them in my career as a software developer successfully. Huge salary jumps in my first few years. Was able to easily switch companies because my knowledge was fundamental and not coupled to the latest trends and frameworks. Thanks for everything, you were a huge influence in my life for many years now. Not even playing league btw
I'm so interested in this. I have studied some computer science and some philosophy, and am I long time LS viewer. So I see similar patterns and themes among these domains, but I have a hard time nailing down a precise mapping. Any examples you could share?
Sure here's an example: in my previous job I was required to learn the frameworks spring boot and angular. They make development easy by doing a lot of stuff for you underneath the surface (like implementing database connections, authentication protocols, role based access etc). LS would call using frameworks cheating similar to how having easy waveclear keeps you from having to know about wave control and posturing. But I was not satisfied with simply learning how these things are done using this particular technology. Instead, I learned the underlying principles (debugged network communication manually with curl, looked at and decrypted packages with wireshark, wrote sql queries by hand and looked at the query execution plan, ...) When I switched my job, my new company had a very different tech stack - Had I just been content with knowing how to use the frameworks, I would have had to start at 0. But instead I understood almost everything instantly because the fundamentals didn't change. One thing LS often brings up is the philosophy of "A punch is just a punch, a punch is more than a punch, a punch is just a punch". To me it means for example: Step 1. A cache is just something to make frequently used data more quickly accessible. (ignorance of underlying concepts) Step 2. There are many different kinds of cache - you can get data over network and store it in a database table before it's needed. But if you do that - how do you know if the cached data is still up to date? There's a whole topic of "cache invalidation" (There's more to it than previously recognized) Everytime I hear about caches, I'm now thinking about cache invalidation to fully grasp the topic. 3. I've understood cache invalidation, it's a natural part of dealing with caches. I have my mind free for the next topic. Caches are just a mechanism for keeping frequently used data quickly accessible.
@@gu1581Amazing. I got frustrated in a CS class because we had to use Gradle for Java development, and it is a tool that obscures all the fundamentals. I am just not confortable using a tool like that if I don't understand it first. The other part you mentioned sounds like building a conceptual hierarchy and automotizing previous knowledge. Some of the themes I recognize from LS are in epistemology, what is the nature of knowledge and how do we prove things. He is extremely analytical and deduced conclusions from his theories, he also is constantly updating his theories based on the new information and innovations that can be demonstrated to be possible
@@gu1581Another theme is about people getting stuck in metagames or traditions, which are heuristics to provide a simplifiied template to deal with the complexity of a game or of life, but the problem comes when people start treating that tradition as the game itself rather than an approximate strategy. The pathways to success that run around that metagame or tradition are not considered. It actually takes a lot of processing power to be able to step outside these frameworks and consider the raw material in all its complexity.
when LS agreed to try to come onto the BBC podcast i teared up a little bit because i know the conversions between Curtis LS and nathen are going to be very good and insightful when they have more time to talk about the game and having LS read nathens mailbag would be so good to see. I know LS gets busy but i would love to him become a semi regular guest to talk to the Curtis and Nathen at hype times during the year season start or end.
Decent debate guys! Both takes have good value in it and there is not really one right or wrong. Same as in league it's not really as black and white as things may seem.
LS: smart people will find all the fundamentals that need to be learned from the goal of 10 cs per minute which is not important and unachievable Curtis: why not just tell people the actual fundamentals? thats basically the conversation, like 10 cs per minute is a buzzword that covers off the incompetence of the coach in every way because viewers can interpret it anyways they want and its compelte useless in actually improving at the game in the grand scheme
Like some other commentor said, LS is basically banking on the player to use their brain to break down the fundamentals. While curtis is giving away those fundamentals. I think like curtis said in the beginning, most people cannot think at that level especially for video games (except pro players in similar/other games) and by doing that LS is overly relying on their student intelligence (which is a variable and kinda weird since LS is very low variables kinda guy). But if successful the student of LS once they "auto" learn those fundamentals it becomes second nature...but yeah both of them make good points however curtis touches more people with his method where LS kinda misses most of those times..
@@H1nted its like saying learn to build a rocket, but youre not allowed to talk to anyone or read any books ever, you have to invent physics yourself and piece it together from there.
This is a fair assessment I think. This has always been my main problem with LS' mindset. I watched him for years and got no better at all. I watched Curtis and skyrocketed almost immediately. I think Curtis fundamentally understands the mind of a bad player infinitely better.
@@AccordZeroGG An actual analogy would be a highschool/college subject that give learning goals for their students. Then give them time, library, and google, but minimum to no instruction or handholding, not even a guideline
@@DERWYDD666 Yes, I think it's clear they speak to two different demographics, and two different time periods. LS has a relevant amount of time coaching low elo people, many years ago. Curtis has a large amount of time coaching low elo people, today. The majority of LS' work is around top level gameplay, where Curtis definitely looks at the Bronze to Diamond player a lot closer, and isn't trying to teach advice that a Master tier player would benefit from most. It's easy to see that LS expects a level of general understanding and analytics that the average person doesn't intuitively understand, while Curtis will continue to break down a topic until he is at the same level as the person he's coaching.
At around 15:13 i think you're misspeaking or mistaken. A layman's term is a term that anyone should be familiar with. Ex. Saying "the flu" instead of "influenza A" If you instead have a term that has a bunch of extra context and the amount of context you understand for that term depends on how familiar you are in that particular field, then what you have instead is jargon. So from what you're saying 10cspm is jargon. Its not just that some people can use thet info and some can't, its that the statement itself is counter productive to anyone that doesn't already understand the jargon. So basically what you are doing is that for people who dont understand the jargon youre asking them to set a goal which you already know is unimportant and unachievable (by your own admission in this video) And for people who do understand the jargon you're not giving them any new information at all. In effect, you just aren't saying anything at all by giving 10 cs per minute as advice.
I always followed Coach Curtis and I swear I just reached GM on this because partially due to his content. I've always recommended him to others. (I like bother creator btw, both LS and Curtis. They teach in different ways, but both are amazing)
In reality, both of the coaching approaches should be used. LS’s approach gives long term goals which gives a sense of urgency realizing how far away someone is from that goal. It issue is that a player might not know exactly what they need to do. Essentially they see the forest but they don’t see the trees. Coach Curtis solves this by breaking up the task into smaller actionable steps. This helps a player know exactly what they need to do. The issue is that the player can get complacent because the coach will need to do the thinking for them, and the player just follows along. Instead of viewing the game as a long goal, getting into the details can be distracting. Missing the forest for the trees. Ideally you would start with the big picture, the player attempts to play and think through what they need to do, and they check in with the coach to see what they are missing or confirm they are thinking about the game correctly LS works with pro players who already have a strong self learning system in place. These are the kids who reach challenger in their early teens. They have no issue with identifying issues and solving Coach Curtis deals with low-mid elo players. These player struggle with decision making and issue spotting. So these players need to have ideas laid out for them. The disagreement makes sense considering the type of players these two coaches work with
True to an extent, but Coach Curtis (and by extension Nathan Mott) go out of their way to give players the tools needed to make long term improvements through their podcast and other resources. They teach how to vod review, identify mistakes, and ultimately build the skills needed to be self sufficient on ones climb. Their podcast and TH-cam channels are structured so someone can figure out how to improve without needing their coaching services. It’s worth mentioning Curtis and Nathan both coach players of all elo brackets, not just lower skill levels. Their coaching began as platinum + programs but below platinum coaching is a relatively new venture for them. They also have experience in the pro scene with the team Dire Wolves (Curtis was head coach, Nathan was owner).
I agree, the issue here is that LS’s advice here is not appropriate for ludwig who is a grown man in bronze that just started playing league. Curtis is arguing that it will do more harm than good which I totally agree with.
Very good comment, I also want to add that also LS is used to deal with exceptional young talents that are way more intelligent than your average joe...so yeah maybe ludwig is intelligent in other ventures in life but that advice will only work with people who are hard wired to understand league without trying .
I agree with coach Curtis, especially on the topic of the average low-elo player. LS seems thinks low-elo players are capable of a lot more than they really are. LS saying a year to get from silver to emerald is too long for the average is insane to me. I have been playing the game with friends for over 10 years, and most of them who still play are not even emerald. I would love to see how LS would react to low elo students nowadays.
Amazing video guys. Mature, respectful conversation from leaders in the LoL community is what we need! It would be amazing to see the conversation continue on the BBC podcast. LS is an OG in the LoL community. And more recently over the past 2-3 years, Coach Curtis has been building a great coaching platform and reputation as a passionate coach who wants to help the everyday Solo Q player reach their goals. More conversations between you two would be great for EVERYONE!
Really enjoyed the back and forth from you both and the arguments from both sides. Hard to believe this was an hour and twenty but hey I could have gone for another hour!
I liked how they frame the 10 CS per minute concept on the podcast. Technically all they were saying is that the cs per minute is more a byproduct of other skills than a skill per say. It’s as is you were saying focus on farming and you’ll hit plat but the 10 cs per minute is more like you got there because you farmed well, you did great macro, great micro, etc etc. So saying focus on the cs per minute will sound like focus on farming for most and “could” worsen some1’s performance if they just go all in on farming trying to reach 10 cs/min through pure farm and not efficiency of everything
32:31 Okay been a while since someone cooked LS on his own channel. I actually would have said the same thing, 10cspm for a jungler is some awful advice. In the context of someone, even someone who is well versed in esports, it just doesn't matter. It may even make a person lose out on certain opportunities really. Jungle as a role is supportive in nature, you are reacting and anticipating what will happen in certain lanes. You need knowledge about waves states, camp, and objective timers while also knowing key item breakpoints. What matters more for a jungler is gold generation. That is, how much do you earn in the game, this takes into account camps, ganks, shutdowns, towers etc. If you're able to keep up or even get ahead of laners (ADC, MID, TOP) then you should climb. You're stronger than they are, so you should see more success. For example, if you full clear fast enough. You will literally have about 30 seconds of free time before your next camp spawns. You can force a gank really and still be efficient. That's what efficient clearing buys you. It gets you time do whatever. If you add tracking enemy jungle, then you start stealing one or two camps. Matter of fact, you can even find yourself stealing three if he is trolling on the other side of the map. Now you're realistically in range of 10cspm should you pick up farm from laners as well. All in all, I agree with Curtis. Even if the idea is that the advice is curated for Ludwig. It's extremely dangerous advice to give people. Especially on a public platform, where it will be misinterpreted.
I also think it's strange for him to curate advice for a player who he doesn't personally speak to and can't have deeper conversations about how to improve at the game. I watched one Ludwig game via Midbeast and even though I don't main jungle I could instantly tell that Ludwig's issue didn't lie in him necessarily not valuing farm but the fact that he had in my opinion a flawed idea of the game and soloq in general. Ludwig could not say no to his team because he sees League as a team game, and while it's true it is, soloq is still different from organized play. He felt that as Amumu, he had to always be a playmaker and therefore be present in every fight or force fights without reflecting on whether the fight is necessary or something he can realistically accomplish. In other words, he struggled to differentiate between good and bad ganks and he struggled to identify his team wincon and which side is strong or weak. These issues are unrelated to farm and won't be solved by have him focus on farming because in his mind the issue is that if he's not present in a fight his team will lose without him. He will do his gromp and ignore his top laner pinging for help when they're already the weak side and then feel it was his fault for his top laner dying. If he reshaped his understanding of the game to try to always take accountability for what his team does, he would see significant results because he would stop feel like he must be present all the time and always make plays for his team.
So true, what's funny is that Agurin is literally LS' evidence for his argument being correct, technically (Since Agurin's frequent EU rank 1 jung). I watched recent gameplay of him on Neeko jung and literally all he does until 20mins is clear his camps and counter jung for 9+cs/m. He only realistically joins his team in the mid to late game and he ignores most objectives until then. BUT his awareness of all of your aforementioned factors (And then some) is the only reason he can play that way. And my slight awareness of SOME of these factors is why his ultagreedy gameplay is mindblowing to me (And I'm a kindred main lmao)- He literally passes up the freest 10%hp ganks and objectives to clear camps its wild
Congratulations and committing the exact same logical fallacies and missing the same point as Curtis. Everything you just brought up is within the 10cspm package and it's not shit that can be conveyed in a tweet, but it is stuff that someone with an analytical mindset will be able to unpack from the 10cspm goal over time.
Jungle is absolutely not an inherently supportive role. If you are playing in organized play, that playstyle by far dominates, but in soloq it is hardcore a selfish role. There is a reason high elo junglers climb with Graves, Nidalee, Evelynn, Karthus or Lee Sin. These are not support champions. As a jungler you can play as the main strategic focus of the team with 4 powerful minions playing around you.
@@yGKeKeif you can’t convey your message in a tweet then why are you even talking? Just keep quiet instead of spewing some pseudo intellectual nonsense with the disguise of being a ‘packaged message’. The fact is LS has no clue what ludwig is like and assuming a complete league newbie like him would extrapolate all that data from a simple tweet is just laughable.
Not only is it more rare now to go from silver to emerald in a year, but LS is drawing on experiences from the past where he'd coach people who got astronomical results pretty quickly. The league player base now is MUCH better than it was even just 3-4 years ago. Players are improving year after year, so to climb ahead of them you have to improve that much faster than them.
Also, I think LS and Curtis to a lesser extent, have a selection bias effect. The people selecting LS are probably super into esports. The type of people he is friends with are more likely to be the type that is just naturally good at games. Curtis has this as well, to a certain extent, but to a much lesser degree.
@@MIKAEL212345 I think this is much more true for LS than Curtis, since LS only really cares to coach talents. Curtis probably does this to an extent as in people who reach out to him say they want to go pro and want Curtis to help them, but Curtis doesn't favor his coaching towards that clientele but LS does.
The players between Silver and Emerald are not "so much better" than each other it's slightly more difficult because the system is still adjusting but all that happened is that the lower middle of the mmr system got face rank pulled down.
@@EpicVideoMaster11 this is what curtis is talking about. you do not realize how the game is because you haven't had that journey in a long time. it is really hard to get from silver to emerald whether you want to admit it or not. It's just obviously true cause otherwise people would never be stuck in silver.
@@MIKAEL212345 how is that so? People were stuck in silver in years prior, literally nothing changed about that. Now, there were adjustments, specifically cause the split of ladder ranking used to be something like 30 per cent bronze, 40 per cent silver and 20 percent gold or something like that and now it's way more evenly distributed and yes, possibly true some concepts are now better understood by the masses than before, but also a lot more concepts have come up since then which are still misunderstood or completely missing from lower elo. I would actually argue it was way harder to climb back then, with the top ranks being such a low percentage of players, shit lp gains, promos and all of that + no lp forgiveness for afks, more lp punishment for dodges and whole lot more stuff.
Hey yo, just appreciate you doing this instead of starting drama or sending passive aggressive stuff in DMs. This type of behavior of just talking it out respectfully is really cool!
My favorite part was Curtis' perspective on Annie. I had always thought of her as an easier champ, despite never finding winning on her to be intuitive, even if it seemed "simple" (just guarantee last hit with q and hit a team wide point and click stun+damage combo, or pick on a lower elo lane mistake at some point and snowball enough to kill your lane opponent will full burst on cd). I think LS is a bit rigid when it comes to acknowledging how skill brackets have changes, because the higher up one goes, the less drastic the change is. Curtis talking about Annie, with her more recent adjustments factored in, give some perspective about how her emphasis as a champion has changed, in relation to a game with rising skill floor denominations. I think a better metaphor than the gym is learning dance--since there is more emphasis on technique and balance, after learning steps and stylistic basics and the basics of moving one's body, and where ceilings can diverge and stretch far in unique ways (playing Azir might be like mastering ballet, Yasuo more like a faster paced flamenco, Kaisa like gymnastic dance, Zoe like Breakdancing -- people could probably match styles with champs better than this). I think something else is lost in each of their perspectives on Annie in the current landspace, that betrays LS' point especially. She seems like one of the champions whose intuitive gameplay might be more likely to have her be learned in a direction that takes one further away from optimal play, in a way that's almost akin to LS' mention of "cheating". Annie seems more like a champion whose obvious advantages become more of a crutch, and actually come to limit a player's vantage point for the game, because the temptation to lean into and identify with her teamfight strengths and waveclears overshadows a lot of the min-maxing of her range and control that will eventually cause a player to really reach elite status. I'm not saying that she shouldn't play towards her strengths, but that her obvious strengths overshadow others in a way that might dull one's learning if they're on a path to elite status. It might just be the difference between LCS and LCK Annie, but I'd think LS would care more to emphasize that, and want to instill that mindset from jump. I'd think advocacy of a champion like Viktor who at least needs to utilize autoattacks would leave less helpful perspective on the table while remaining intuitive.
Annie is more of a "I want to hit X rank" champ than a "I want to learn League of Legends" champ. Annie is fine for both people, but for those that value learning the game, they're probably more likely to move on to a different champ once they get what they want out of Annie than someone whose only goal is to hit emerald or diamond. In that case, it doesn't matter if you end up using Annie's advantages as a crutch, since the rank is all that matters. IMO, Curtis put way too much value on Annie's stun. As long as you have it when you need it, it doesn't matter if you cycle spells. I got the impression while he was talking about her that he was talking through the lens of holding onto it the whole time, meaning you can't use your abilities to wave clear anymore.
@@cascadingdreams8743 I think you totally nailed that description. That seems to be her role. Curtis' I can't use the stun point was pretty silly, especially as it relates to the lower ranks -- you can hit the wave and the opponent often enough. I appreciate your thoughts and time typing them out. Thanks!
for me the idea of annie is her kit is giving you the feel of so many champs Q gives feel for the "auto" spells like senna lucian Q's or MF or the kits that have abilitys they use has a second auto but its a spell like panth W or TF gold card fiddle Q lots of CC abilitys giving a feel for both and when to use both and how to hold onto a stun W is like a melee AoE ability renekton camile W sett W the stun is abilitys like skarner R yone Q3 these AoE stuns E is the shield lots of supports use or champs like sett use or ivern is the speed boost of ziliean and gives a true feel for them and even has her R to show when to shield a ally over themselfs R is the worse for this argument of her kit to show my point of view has its mainly the super ults like ori R or they are abilitys like yorick R or shaco or ivern showing how to control more then 1 champ and getting used to playing with the "2v1" and gives the feel of say lulu with a cc a shield and these ways to show how to move with a adc so its just gives the challenges of many classes keeping them learning and find what they want "i like annie Q i want more annie Q" you might go camile sett lucian senna or maybe TF or viktor you want more of the W then renekton might be great or yone want the E? then supportive characters like karma ivern lulu or lots of others you want melee self shielding champs shen or sett or lots others did you love using the R? then iverns or shaco becomes a great jump off point to learn what you want to play and due to how her challenges show how a massive amount of champs works and fundamentals (say you got plat with annie and then want to get more out the game at least) like i find it a champ to always be able to recommend has even if it ends up not being a favo character of theirs they will find something they like about them
I feel like the whole Annie is basic and easy is weird. She got outranged, can't trade, bad waveclear, bad auto animation although good range. Every champ has some kind of 'cheat' or identity, The fairness of Annie made her a hard mode laning, not a neutral option
This conversation was very interesting, I would like to hear more episodes if you're both willing to do that on other subjects because it forced both of you to explain your reasoning in depth and consider counterpoints in a thoughtful way which I found very valuable.
Regarding whether one coaching session would make a meaningful difference, it absolutely CAN! I had a coaching session with Shok a year ago (part of coach curtis crew now, but wasnt then) and he pointing our leaning and warding, timing CS with minions, tracking jungler, not getting peppered by range minions to death etc. I took that on board, and worked on it over months and months and improved. For some people, they just need to see it and then run with it.
I think Curtis is right regarding over-complication. LS can have a habit of talking over people's heads, or trying to lay out concepts that are beyond the level of your average player.
but you have to be above the average player to climb? If you are an average player, of course you are going to be stuck in bronze-silver whereas if you are trying to climb above the average then you would have to understand new concepts in order to become better at the game (hence being better than the average).
@@Alexandthenewwing overcomplicating things doesn't help at all, sometimes I've got no idea what LS is even trying to say as a diamond player so how is a bronzie going to know what to take away from it
@@eVill420 Well at that point you aren't even trying to learn at all. How could you listen to someone, then say it's too hard to understand and then question why you are not improving. If you are trying to learn/improve you should be able to take the substance of what someone is saying and mold it into your own words so you can understand better. It's something they teach you in primary school.
@@Alexandthenewwing You dont have to be above average to climb from the get go, thats the point. You start below average and have to become above average later on by learning. But you don't teach people math by starting off at algebra or something like that. You start with the basics, then move on to bigger things.
@@evenask Yes I agree, you just reworded my statement to try and disagree with me. Also if this is your standpoint then Annie as a starting point would be better for a new player to build the fundamentals such as csing, resource management, hp lethals, etc. Meanwhile telling someone to pick Brand, instantly clear the wave and bypass these core concepts is the better way at teaching someone the game?
you can really see LS growth over the years from this video, before he would explain why he is solely right on his opinion but now hes starting to understand people a lot more and you see the growth in his explanations and how nuances are misunderstood or there is too many assumptions that need to be made by an individual. Curtis is right about how hes become detached from reality when it comes to use normal players, which isnt a bad thing, His career led him down this path of focusing on the 2% and he is amazing at that. The average person takes more time to get better because the people paying for coaching are usually people with money to spend on this kind of privilege so its fair to assume they probably work a lot too. its hard to get good at something fast when you can only spend a few hours here and there on a game.
"We both love League" , "Well..." 😂 I love the fact to see LS and the BBC or Curtis in general come together for a nice talk. Also nice seeing the 2 different Views and dissagreements from 2 educational People in the scene I followed a lot in my league journey, and also respect their points. firstly and still ls then later finding the bbc. Very nice, looking forward for another talk maybe in the future!
As an Emerald player my view point here is LS’ way of thinking about the game at a solo q level is outdated. From my viewpoint I believe his way of improving is heavily lane focused. Coach Curtis’ view is more broad than that. As a player that has played and watched the game for over 10 years laning phase is not nearly as important as it was 5 years ago. Win lane lose game was a very popular saying back then, today it’s not mentioned nearly as much. Although wave management and wave control are more important to allow you to move around the map freely. With bounties, obj bounties, dragon stacking, grubs, rift herald and all of these things laning phase is far less important and also much shorter.
I’ve followed both of the content creators for quite some time. This was quite enjoyable to see 2 adults respectfully disagree while also listening with open minds. We need more of this.
The analogy to bodybuilding information, in my opinion, is fitting. It made me think of the recommended protein intake per pound of body weight. Generally, 0.8 grams per pound should be more than enough, especially for beginners, as they likely aren't consuming enough in their normal diet, even without weight training. I once had a guy at GNC tell me I should be getting 2 grams per pound, which not only stressed me out due to the logistics, but is also overkill, even for advanced lifters. I think a similar effect occurs when you suggest something like that to an Iron/Bronze-level jungler who is currently averaging 4/5 CS per minute. I believe Ludwig's response to the tweet shows that the implied context didn't come across as clearly as intended.
You both are right, he just cant get past that he is talking from a general perspective on the average iron/bronze player, and you are talking about the 2% thats gonna take more time to think everything through and is passionate about improving rapidly. You guys were both correct if you listen to each other with the context of who you guys are intending the words for.
Hi LS, I don't usually comment, but I've been enjoying both your and Curtis' content for a while and I wanted to share my 2 cents, I see a lot of positive comments here, but I kinda came out of it with some disappointment. This isn't about the actual conversation topics at all, rather I found kind of disrespectful some of the things you said, particularly implying that Curtis is in some way trying to slow down the progression of his clients as a business model to get them to come back for more and also that he talked about the 10CSPM topic on his podcast to spur his viewers into making this conversation happen and somehow "leech" off your obviously larger viewerbase and community. Now I don't know if I got the wrong impression but this is how your comments came out to me, obviously I might be wrong and in any case you are free to have your opinion on the matter and share it if you like, just wanted to share my impressions, even if you do believe those things I think implying them and discrediting a colleague of yours is in bad taste, especially given how influential you are in the community. Don't know if you're going to read this, if so thanks for all the effort you put in the scene, just wanted to give a different point of view.
A point about quicly climbing through the low elo ladder: For a lot of players the difficulty in climbing comes from the fact that they want to enjoy the game but derive pleasure fromt he game by doing basically everything that slows down progress: Playing a large champion pool of difficult and hyper unique champtions, playing with friends just for fun on multiple lanes, playing infrequently with days off in between, not taking accountability for the outcomes of games, not play ranked actively, watch videos of high mmr players just stomping with weird builds instead of higher quality educational content and so on so forth. To train such players often you need an incremental approach where you help them build one good habit at a time that is gonna pay off and make them improve. Of course if you can take a silver player and implement all the right habits at once and maybe even support them with good feedback you can help them improve tremendously fast. However a lot of players don't have the discipline or motivation to implement such changes and if you lay all that on them they will either quit the game or just give up on climbing all together.
Phenomenal video. Both of these coaches have had massive positive influences on my journey and career in League. I would love to hear more discussions around other topics! Maybe LS could be a guest speaker in the one Curtis's podcast episodes in the future! Edit - I just finished the last few minutes and Curtis actually invited LS to the podcast. That would be awesome! There is a lot of philosophical ground uncovered for sure.
17:30 love the mention of RP, Dr Mike is an amazing fitness expert, learning a lot from him and I'm glad LS had success with his fitness using Dr. Mike's videos
I can see both of these sides and I really like what you did for this video LS in showing both sides. I can say that I knew where the coach is coming from (especially with Annie) but at the same time, I would say that I have found more success with your teachings. Even with Annie, I have learned a lot about the game (my rank doesn't reflect it but it is because I play very little due to life) but even just learning what you say made me a better player. I think this might just be different philosophies but I really liked you bringing this person on and talking about this. Keep up the amazing work you always do and thank you for being awesome mate!
A fun discussion. This to me sounds like two different but effective teaching methodologies one removes aspects of the game to reduce mental stress I.E champ ez wave clear can focus on learning trading, resetting, etc. Vs a champ that is extremely punishing if you don't properly learn the core mechanics, so it only gives you gratification if you get really good at the harder mechanics like spacing and threatening. I think both work but for different people, if you are someone that has a 9-5 plays maybe a couple of hours a week Curtis approach is easier and gives faster results. (also better in a coaching module to get returning clients as it gives more evident results usually). But LS point is better for people where league is their main hoppy as if you learn the advanced mechanics everything else will be easier in comparison and you will in the end be a better player (reaching for the stars) than the one using the Curtis approach (Reaching for the sky). However, the LS approach takes a lot more time and self-discipline so if that makes you quit halfway it too would be a redundant training method for that person. The best training is the training that gets done unless you're going to be a professional athlete. But just depends on the person like all teaching. Great video hope to see more like this. (just a fun thought after watching to min 47 so might miss something xd)
But he was adressing lud, an iron/bronze player. Specific statement only work when you know the inner working of a person. A better first advice is a general one and one that is understandable by most people.
how tf is he gonna know if ludwig can psychoanalyze his tweet? ludwig the amumu bronze jungle that every 2 minutes makes a mistake and then says "i have a disease" lol.
I really like the 10cs/min idea that its almost like a check but there is a minimum level of knowledge necessary to make use it. Many things work like this and you can even compare directly to the brain and how the left and right side work in tandem. It's easier to judge progress in this way. I would like to see more from LS ideas on hard concepts and the individual steps that are necessary. Even if he's done them before this new production value could be really cool to have applied to those.
Learning to play annie optimmally will be more rewarding and reap more sucess in the long run. Playing malz or brand simply because you can avoid laning via your extremely fast wave clear than your missing out on an entire aspect of the game 😭😭 (laning phase and trading). Once you hit slightly higher ranks where players know how to punish u spamming all your abilites on the wave, than your so much further behind than if you would have played annie and learned how to shield champs, space, auto attack effeciently, utilize fog of war and summoner spells (annie very flash dependent).
I think LS is massively overestimating bronze players ability to realise that focussing on 10CSPM, bronze players would be able to successfully discover the factors would increase that. If they knew it, they wouldn't be bronze. They would lose their mind when they actually DO get 10CSPM and lose the game because they are trading CS over being at an objective as a jungler etc For example, maybe they end up taking bad backs, because instead of leaving the wave, they focus on getting this CS not realising that it harms their CS later. The difference between a 5 minute mile and league is that your body will naturally improve by just going through the motions in the act of running, league you dont. Having said that, when LS explained what he means, I think its a lot closer to coach curtis, but no one normal bronze will ever interpret his advice that way. I have bronze friends who actually think they are playing well, and that they just keep getting unlucky, not that they could change anything.
"I think LS is massively overestimating bronze players ability to realise that focussing on 10CSPM, bronze players would be able to successfully discover the factors would increase that. If they knew it, they wouldn't be bronze. They would lose their mind when they actually DO get 10CSPM and lose the game because they are trading CS over being at an objective as a jungler etc" This is the entire error in LS' reasoning. He thinks giving this advice will make people figure it out by themselves and it may work for some people but it won't work for everyone, and it will also only work for a minority and for those it does work for, it is also possible to ask the question how much LS' advice actually contributed to that improvement. Also, most people don't have the time nor interest to review VODs upon VODs of themselves and pros to learn the nuances of wave states if they can even identify these things to begin with. I have a full time job and there are also other things I enjoy doing than just playing League. I acknowledge this may mean I may never get a very high rank but that's also ok with me. I don't live for League like LS does.
@@Kamishi845 Agree with most of what you said, but I do think that for a select few who lack direction more than an ability to learn, giving them a framework and then letting them fill in the lines can be very effective, so I do think LS has his value and his place.
Hey guys! Great video. I loved you both and consumed both of your contents and got to take away much. I get both of your philosophies and I think this was a great and respectful clash of them :D
Coach curtis is playing chess and LS is playing checkers. What i mean by this is that Curtis doesnt actually belive most of his claims he just baited one of the most popular league content creators into an hour public video. Theres truly no way coach curtis belives all these claims and as he frequently says hes "playing devils advocate". He takes everything LS is saying takes it and analyzes as an extreme, like LS says focus on 10 cs per min in a TWEET and curtis claims he shouldnt say that because the person wont focus on anything else and wont ask themselves deeper questions 😭. Farming is one of the things in league of legends that you can consistently do, so focusing on Cs'ing optimally and learning how to do so while facing a lane or jung opponent is a perfect place to start for beginners.
nah i dont believe my ears, LS gaslighting curtis for 1 hour straight and cant admit he just yapping in his tweet... imagine saying he should get 10csm but akshually he should read his mind about all of those things and he didnt actually mean what he himself type in his tweet lmaoooo
I've watched 12 min and he already changed his stance (or atleast did not give enough context to start). He said specifically that since Ludwig is a great content creator, he can be a great gamer. Even cited how competitive content creation is. I don't disagree, just find it funny because then he backtracks and says that no its because he used to play smash lol
Yeah, this. The guy doesn't have the capacity to admit he was incorrect, even once I don't think, even when Curtis, multiple timeS, adjusts his position to the additional context LS provides. I think it's really amusing that Curtis calling out on the BBC podcast that LS often speaks from this position of absolute authority and conviction and black/white reasoning, was totally on display during this entire discussion.
The main bad argument with LS, is that the 10cs/min becomes more applicable in platinum. I don't even require 10cs/min to climb in Emerald, but I would be able to break down his advice. Coach Curtis has a excellent understanding of coaching all skill levels, while LS' advice mostly applies to more experienced players.
I think the most important thing about LS's point is the perspective of playing a single person game, not exactly the 10 cs/m. Efficiently farming and playing the economy side of the game will get you to platinum and is the basis for everything in League. That should be easier than learning when to trade, when to go all in, when to roam, etc. Solely focusing on limiting deaths and hitting creeps is much easier than being an aggressive player. Obviously if you're a better player you can kill people all the time in lane in low ELO, but that takes a lot of knowledge and skill and ultimately is a worse way to practice than just being a consistent farmer
But it's not the most efficient way either if you wanna just outright race to plat. Just learn a cheese strategy, onetrick shaco, go blue to red or vice versa, into gank bot, find a good clear on youtube to follow it up, gank bot again until they are far enough ahead to just carry you. You don't need to know any concepts, it will just work. Also, specific advice will improve you faster, because you learned where to be on the map even if down 2 camps or how to power clear, applying the advice and getting better at the game, while the other guy is still deciding if it's better to focus on skill capped videos on power clearing or watching veigar v2 coaching.
This is genuinely a podcast, which I must admit, I really enjoy Curtis, but this is just one of those things where even tho they disagree you just still have massive respect for both. LS's perspective really gives a layering aspect to small advice and how to achieve goals, and then you see Curtis's perspective on really trying to understand how to articulate them and fully understand them in a way that helps with LS's views.
How would an elite player not benefit from playing a simple champ like Malz and then switching to Viktor once in gold? LS' response was that it was like a paid subscription but that seems like a bias more than an actual reason.
LS is basically saying that if you're not the top 2% of players who just get it instantly or will read between the lines, you're stupid, and there's something wrong with you that you're not a higher rank by now. Good luck figuring it out on your own. He is also clearly lumping all of the pre-plat ranks into one 'low MMR' category. He fundamentally doesn't know or respect the difference between Bronze and Gold, which is huge. LS doesn't have my respect.
I think is fine to say he only cares about the top 2%. If you are a coach in the NBA it doesnt mean you like to coach high school kids. He is doesnt even coach publicly anymore, so people can go for a coach that focuses on gold players.
Nobody said anything about the *top* 2%. 2% was in reference to a statistic about the success of people's personal fitness journeys (i.e. that 98% of people fail on their personal fitness journeys) not a comment on the specific proportion of League players that LS cares about or thinks can succeed. Also, in this context the "2%" (again not actually 2% just an example) aren't the best League players, they are the people who are have the drive to seek out more information, to learn and improve on their own. You can be Bronze in League because you lack experience but still fall into the category of people LS is referring to because of your personality, drive, etc.
This basically boils down to a methodology difference. Curtis values teaching more like a school system, where you similfy concepts early on to get the basics but will have to expand on or reteach these down the line. LS believes in placing all the resources on the table and allowing you to explore, at the cost that many learners might not be able to keep up.
But the issue a lot of what school teaches you is largely unusable in real life, is partially wrong but is designed to get you past the post (pass the test). LS’s version makes more sense as a concept because it means that those that can apply it will succeed with more information, those who can’t might fail, but that’s more because they couldn’t have necessarily applied it anyway and that’s when you get coaching of a different kind. By oversimplifying things, you just bring down people at the top whilst enabling people at the bottom to be passable but not great. Whereas in reality it should be the other way around… then the people at the bottom can use a whole wealth of resources that allows them to understand and improve at their own pace. Instead of slowing everyone else down to suit them.
@@PeoplePleaser578yea but coaching isn't school, it's a 1 on 1 so you can adapt your approach. While giving all resources is a good way, i think for newer/inexperienced players it s probably better to only show certain tools. Like for math, we start by only positive numbers, then we are intoduced to negative numbers and finally we get to imaginary numbers. If you just give everything to someone that doesn t know what numbers are you are just going to confuse them. Incremental giving of tools is very effective for new players
@@H1nted It is and it isn’t. The problem with doing that and what LS’s overarching point about LoL in general is that it’s about getting players to think for themselves. If you guide them through it, then they will inevitably not think or try to adapt. The moment you aren’t there - They will either struggle to apply what you told them or they will just autopilot repeat everything and get annoyed that they aren’t winning. You present then with all the ideas so you show them what is possible, but you also show them how to optimise certain things and they should be able to translate this elsewhere and adapt it. It won’t work for everyone, but ultimately most of the people it doesn’t work for, would not do anything with coaching anyway. It is like school even if it’s one on one. Like people forget how people were introduced to games… they throw you into the world and go “play this, these buttons do this” and then people over time developed their way of playing.
@@d4s0n282 But again your implication is that everyone is capable of thinking… which they aren’t. Hell this whole comment section is proof of that… even when LS explains his points, you still have people going “NO YOU ARE DUMB LS, FRAUD”. It’s literally proof that some people are incapable of thinking about anything, they don’t understand nuance, they can’t think for themselves. You only have to look at politics to understand that - where most people will instantly pick a side because “Your side bad, my side good” or because they always have done, or because their parents did… they don’t engage their brain, listen and make their own choices. It doesn’t make you a bad teacher to understand that some people are in capable of thinking or understanding… and it’s not a teachers job to try to educate someone who is doesn’t want to learn or is incapable of learning, and every second spent wasting on those people is time taken away from people who do want to learn and will do something with it. This is why schools fail - They spend more time with the kids that don’t want to learn or are incapable of it, and less time helping the ones that do want to learn and can excel… actually excel. We teach kids that if they are good at something that they should do more research on their own time, but if they are bad then they can just be spoon fed all the answers. Like I said to someone else, with the amount of information that exists on the internet about everything and the amount of different styles of content from high level concepts to baby’s first laning phase… if people cannot watch that and discern what they need to do in order to at minimum get to gold, odds are they will never learn and coaching is a waste of time. That is fact, you can literally watch 50 minute videos on optimal farming, optimal jungle clear, warding locations, how to improve at farming, macro concepts, build divergence… hell even what champions are effective at climbing. If from that you cannot incorporate things into your game that will help you succeed, a coach cannot teach you with any reasonable success because there is a fundamental issue with you and how you extrapolate and apply new information.
I think your IDea about league being single player is very solid. Ive had the same thought a while back and the 1 thing coach curtis missed is the following: It reduces tilt if you think of league as single-player. Because rather then thinking "fuck these guys, everyone is feeding" you'll be thinking "goddamn i am playing on hard more" like dark souls. Other then that: Ls sometimes its easier to simply say "yeah my statement was very extreme with 10 cs/min and I shouldve said that its a goal which you should look towards rather then the standard" . I feel the defense of your point was more to defend your ego rather then an actual good argument^^. Good video overall
Yeah it makes the game way more enjoyable. If you played tft , its the same feeling as low rolling, you are a bit mad but you try to get the best out of the bad situation.
Big agree on the latter part and he basically comes to this conclusion himself at 8 minutes or so. 10 cs/m is fundamentally contingent on other scaffolded game knowledge.
LS does not even begin to understand what a new player like Ludwig is trying to figure out. 10cs per minute is impossible. The guy does even know that ahri has a charm, ezreal has a flash on 10 second, that illoia tentacles beat you up. There is a starting point, and 10cs is so far beyond iron/bronze that he will never get to gold/plat being told just farm 10cs. What he needs is a baseline, a foundation to work off of. A basic understanding of progression. While he learns champions, he needs to know camps spawn on 1:30 minute cycles. Dragon spawns on 5 minute intervals. And how to clear efficiently for the first 2 clears, and what to look for after that point. The 52cs 5 minute lvl 6 timer. He needs literally the basics of the game.
The idea that he catered his advice to Ludwig because of his background is ridiculous and pretentious. If Ludwig was instead an Iron-ranked bartender instead of an Iron-ranked famous streamer, would LS's tips for low Elo be any different? I seriously doubt that. Also, the 10 cs/min advice is so bad it's stereotypical, this is the same amateurish "advice" people gave 10 years ago. LS just doesn't have the patience to coach low Elo, that's all this is. What got me out of low Elo was reviewing replays, going into detail, taking the game seriously, sticking to one champion. There were a lot of small things I had to learn besides farming more efficiently. Once I did that, I went from bronze to plat in two months (I can link my op gg if anyone wants). The "just improve your CS!" advice didn't help me at all, it's utterly worthless.
He probably wouldn't be talking to a random bartender at all if it wasn't a coaching session. In which case his advice would obviously be different because he has longer to relay his advice.
Sometimes, I do think that LS hangs around and interacts with too many elite players and people and kinda doesn't realize how the average bronze or silver player will take his words or even how they think (or lack thereof). Maybe that's not his target audience, but then maybe he's also not the best person to be commenting on what Ludwig should be doing to hit platinum when he's currently in bronze.
@@boredindividual I think just because it's better advice than what many others would give, it's still not good. I think Ludwig would never listen to random nobodies anyway, so it shouldn't matter that there are a bunch of Twitter nobodies giving him bad advice.
Agree. It's a real problem: people who are really smart themselves, or who hang around with really smart people / top-tier performers, often lose touch with what average people / beginners actually need and what type of things they actually struggle with. And as a result they may be domain experts yet simultaneously be actually pretty terrible teachers for average people / beginners.
I really liked the break down of the different champs Coach Curtis mentioned, I was just looking at Win rate% so there is more too it. Each of the 5 mage champs Coach Curtis mentioned Are really solid in low mmr and start get worse pass gold elo, while Annie actually has a lower win rate in low mmr and gets better as your mmr increases. I just thought this reflected pretty well at how low mmr understands controlling the wave state with abilities while they are still learning spacing and more mechanical trade patterns.
LS has a 'but' for every single piece of criticism you throw at him. Bro is a professional goalpost mover. I dont think hes even aware that he does that.
There was not a single goalpost moved here. LS and Curtis were discussing entirely different things because Curtis fundamentally misunderstands the concept of gateway goals such as 10cspm. What you call "Goalpost moving" is LS repeatedly pointing out the difference between what he said and what Curtis is pushing.
Its funny how pros should pick champs and drafts that are easy to play but average joe trying to climb to gold shouldnt and should pick annie. Coach Curtis completely decimated the annie argument by getting into the specifics of her kit and highlighting her deceptive difficulty that blocks people from actually playing the game. His beginner champions and the ideas behind them are completely solid and LS’s only argument back was “they have to use their abilities on the wave too” Idk LS I genuinely hope you approach this with the right mindset and understand that while you illuminated a lot of ideas you also created a lot of shadows that Curtis has personally been dealing with for the past few years. And he has learned a LOT and you could learn a lot from him as in sure he could from you! I can personally attest listening to coach curtis and their framework for climbing on the bbc made me go from being stuck in low gold/platinum to peaking masters. He teaches people how to learn. Not how to play. Well he also does that :p
I think this was a good interview on both sides. You admit to some basis you have and likewise from your guest. Good feedback and criticisms from both sides.
Thanks for having me on LS, I'm glad we finally were able to talk about the game together. I came out understanding your view a lot more, and even though we don't fully see eye to eye on a few things, I think it was a productive conversation and I hope we can chat again soon! Cheers
Good shit Curtis
I love your content
BBC gets me hyped to grind league! ty coach curtis!
it amazes me how you've always remained so nice and respectful despite it being so obvious how much disdain you have for how this guy thinks
great ideas and lovely seeing you guys exchange! nice job king
Actually love that this happened massive respect to them both
sup rew rew
@@throughtheendlessinertia1915 suppety sup sup
yo Rew i love your videos bro
I agree. I have been following them both for years and I have leveraged their content to success in and outside of league. Wonderful to see them discuss topics in-depth!
Can tell Curtis has spent more time in the trenches of low elo. He understands the differences much more.
Yeah, very clear
The majority of high elo players giving advice have no understanding of low elo because their only contact with it is stomping every lane until Emerald+ so they have no ideia how it really goes for people actually there.
If you throw me on bronze, my impression will be that it's unloseable but that's not the reality of my bronze friends
@@mitsuki1388 100% bronze players wont see the mistakes that the enemy does while you do.
@@mitsuki1388and they all criticised Neace… cause he was giving iron to gold players practical advice instead of high elo fundamentals advice, half of them cried “ohh but you wouldn’t do that” when reviewing Neace’s coaching to these silver players.
I'm amazed at how knowledgeable LS is about the game but completely disconnected from the majority of the playerbase.
He reminds me of many professor at university, very knowlddgable about their fields, and absolutely suck at teaching an average joe..
because he has tism
The reason for that is that the more deeply you understand something, the more you realize that things that seemed simple once are actually much more complicated to fully understand. Things that once seemed easy now make you flinch when they're explained in simple, ultimately reductive and imprecise terms. You now know they're not fully right, ergo wrong. And so you struggle to explain things to someone in a way they understand because basically, to get laymen into a topic at first you have to teach them wrong things. Take for example natural sciences and math. For a lot of the things you learned in Highschool, you'll find when you study them in a university setting that a lot of the rules you learned about either have exceptions or simply don't exist but were taught just for simplicity's sake.
Loved the discussion, and this has nothing to do with league or anything, but Curtis at the end was very open and acknowledged his misstep in his articulation of LS in his podcast, and he was open about how something you did has probably hung over him for some time. I just wish LS had apologized in return to Curtis for how he unintentionally slandered Curtis in the past.
Its hard to apologies for something that you do indirectly
@@alexandrul.9910 He could still apologize for his poor way of expressing himself but LS doesn't see anything wrong with what he did so he didn't apologize, because he thinks he's right.
That's the thing I love about Curtis, both in game and real life it seems he always openly acknowledges his responsibility and mistakes. He actually made a video retraction over a video he made covering a low elo player's perspective
@@tacotimmer8288 Indeed
True Ls's ego just seems to be too big, Curtis is clearly the bigger man.
I agree with Curtis I think league is difficult enough to understand especially for new players. Complicating things by using language or suggestions that have to be deciphered just over complicates an already complicated situation.
I agree specifically for people new to MOBA/RTS. They just won't have the knowledge to break down 10cs/m into its component parts without investing hundreds of hours into the game, often without a clue of what specifically they're doing wrong.
That’s why teaching is a skill
Exactly ! However LS approach can bear "juicier fruits" since people who figure out things themselves actually learn thise skills and it becomes second nature to them. It is basically gambling..
@@H1ntedthere's no point in hiring a coach that tells you to learn things on your own.
Yes, and this has been LS' largest problem making edu content. He makes up so many unnecessary terms.
Hahaha Curtis is too funny, his bluntness/phrasing at some points was cracking me up. Big props to both guys, ultimately striving for a similar goal of playing the beautiful game in the best way possible.
I can see both sides of the 10 CSPM argument, and it fundamentally comes down to teaching styles. As someone who's made teaching their trade, all my education classes I took in college, along with all my experience since makes me want to agree with Curtis. I agree with LS in the sense that if you want someone to truly excel and become an independent learner, they need to figure out stuff on their own. But it's important to have a foundation that you can build upon with time.
This is why the statement "Focus on 10 CSPM" is kind of misleading. Some people with the right mindset, experience, and insight can intuitively break it down to the various concepts that one needs to master to become an efficient player. This does not apply to most people, and I would argue it doesn't even necessarily apply to people who have reached high peaks in other games with a high skill ceiling. It's better to assume the lowest common denominator unless you're personally familiar with their capabilities, so as to not confuse the individual and expend more effort in teaching them the things they need to know.
Instead of giving the 10 CSPM advice, it is far more productive to give them a foundation. For example: the difference between a good and bad gank (setup, summoner spells expended, wave states, volatility); win condition assessment (which team is favored early/late, what objectives to emphasize, which lanes to gank to get ahead and snowball); efficient jungle clearing and pathing toward win conditions; map awareness; jungle tracking; and basic macro. If you help them understand the components, even if overwhelming at first, their continued learning will be far easier to promote.
Ultimately I think that's the part of this debate that appeared to be lost in this video. They both have a point, but whereas LS' teaching methods are better suited for experienced players with sophisticated understandings of competitive video games, Curtis' methods are more agnostic and applicable to everyone, regardless of their background, mindset, experience, and insight. Both common academic opinion on this subject, and my individual experience teaching students of all competency levels align with the idea that specific advice is better than general advice as a starting point.
I too work in education but specifically something more akin to special ed. Basically I'd go in classes with kids that might have struggles that might impair their understanding or ability to follow a class.
What I do on a day to day basis ressembles Curtis' method of coaching in the sense that I might have to go take one's hand over a longer period of time so that they're able to make progress. I could be for example accompanying a kid with ADHD and simply ask the correct questions at the right time (did you hear what the teacher said ? did you understand the last point ? can you explain to me then ?) and to that extent I can then understand where LS' coming from because you should (IMO) strive to make someone autonomous and accountable in the long run.
The metrics that LS' bring forward should be seen as a tool that most should be able to utilize and understand to perfect aspects of their game, but I do agree that Curtis' way of doing things should probably be a standard in lower elos.
the idea of 10cs per min is this
first i understand intuitive learning
i have played league reached apex tiers among different games
the thing that i found that doesnt matter what type of game your playing it doesnt matter what is actually known to be better all of these things are bullshit the best methods of winning is the one that requires you to do nothing in order to win thus the 10cs per min came from if somebody at lower mmr does anything beside farming is less likely to win so the idea is if he just try to focus only and only in farming its probably his best way of improving because u could try anything from understanding how to teamfight or gank these things changes every game and sometimes it require a great knowledge of understanding and skills to pull off as i said if somebody quite literally at low mmrs which is 80% of the playerbase they will win more i'm not talking in theory here this is real players are often so bad that not doing anything will make win more thats the whole idea of it
LS just can't see practicality. He wants whatever he thinks is the "right" answer, to be done every time.
He just can't accept that things like Pro's preferences, comfort, familiarity, etc...
@@joshpointoh i think thats a disingenious framing of it, he may often disregard those factors because more often than not, those factors are barriers that prevent you from actually getting better.
we have seen plenty of examples through the years where players havent played a champ in many many months, and just pull it out in a match simply because the champ is extremely good in that situation, we know that great champs win games regardless of comfort. relying on comfort makes it harder to actually see those angles.
LS is for the 2℅ that actually want to be better, curtis is for the other 98% aren't willing to put in the effort
Awesome conversation. really showing how two people can respectfully disagree and understand each others points of view and not just talking in circles. Love both Curtis and LS a lot to be learned by everyone listening to them hash it out.
Yes, I'm about 30 minutes in taking an adhd break in the comments, and I've realized that they aren't going to end this conversation on the same page. It's entirely a case of "We think a different type of communication is more efficient, based on the demographic we interact with." There are cases where LS is correct, short term, high goal, "figure out the steps" being the correct method, and there are also many situations where you need to actively tell someone "plan this, do this, be here, watch this timer, recall at this moment" for them to understand what the problems in their gameplay are.
About the 5 minute mile comparison, I’ll give my opinion as a university runner. One common training mistake is that if you want to run X race (mile, 5km, etc.) is that you should just run the same event at maximum effort every time and eventually you will get faster. This doesn’t work, and there are many components to getting faster at running including: vo2 max, lactate threshold, type 1 muscle fiber endurance, type 1 muscle fiber power, type 2 muscle fiber endurance, type 2 muscle fiber power, running form, aerobic fitness, body weight, nutrition, hydration, etc. Telling someone to get 10 cs per minute every game, would be akin to saying “aim for a beyond maximum effort pace” every time you go for your run. We know from exercise science that this is the worst advice you can give someone. For 99% of runs and running workouts, you should not be going maximum effort, let alone beyond maximum effort. Curtis’ (and many people’s) issue is that the “10 cs/min” is a useless and even dangerous educational piece of advice.
While this is an interesting perspective, I would argue that the training for sports and for games works on a fundamentally different level, as if you attempt to go beyond maximum effort pace, you won't be able to train effectively again for a while due to exhaustion and the physical damage that training can deal to the body, with gaming however if it doesn't go well you can just load up the next game and immediately implement any new knowledge or skill with no degree of loss incurred
@@brendanmulcahy5935 I think the physical load of a workout is akin to the mental load of actually giving it a hard effort in a game. Sure you can do it for longer, but the mental load in game means u can only work on a thing at a time, and breaks are important.
@@brendanmulcahy5935 Fundamentally it works the same actually, doing things that you can't do and seeking highs that can't be obtained isn't a way to achieve progress, because you quite literally can't do it. You can just load up a game, but mental fatigue is a thing, our brains are lazy by default and can't learn too much new information at a time, that's how you get burnt out and don't truly apply everything. The problem is that 10 cs/m on it's own doesn't tell you anything really, because the advice itself doesn't give any information without further context, at which point you are just looking for context which is a whole new information that only ties into it.
I think it's the complete opposite. Trying to get 10 cs/min while trading, tracking enemy jungler, roaming etc would be akin to going maximum effort. Just getting 10 cs/min would be closer to choosing one of the things you said "vo2 max, lactate threshold, type 1 muscle fiber endurance, etc" and training that one specific thing.
Thanks for the insight.
LS' Ludwig argument hinges on him being able to successfully psychoanalyse him and I find it absolutely absurd
Most experienced league players understand what LS is alluding to. The problem is Ludwig is not experienced. He wouldn’t be able to extrapolate the meaning and would just take 10cs/min at face value.
Telling a low elo jungler to try and get 10 cs per minute means they are going to be taxing after every gank, smiting minions, etc. People just aren't smart enough to understand what he means and how to get there.
@jeffstut55 What is 'experienced'? Do you mean emerald+ with X amount of games played or time played? Because experienced is subjective. I know emerald players who have been playing for less than 2 years, for example. They are dumb in regards to a lot of the game. I wouldn't call them experienced. Adversely, I know hardstuck silver and below players who have been playing for 7+ years (some even started in s1 when I did) and they still don't have a clue about the game. Even the ones that do know, struggle to figure out how to get to where they need to be to achieve what their knowledge of the game is.
@burritogod59 Also, saying 10cs/min is literally unachievable for a low rank. They won't clear or back optimally enough to do so, which ofc means they will do what you are saying since in their mind they need to be as close to 10cs/min. I have several diamond ranked jungle friends that have no clue about the jungle really. They know their clears on their champs, but they struggle to know when to back early, when to delay doing camps, when to alter clears, etc. I can only imagine a low rank jungler and how much they struggle in terms of knowledge. I'd almost bet any amount of money that Ludwig could hit silver just purely by mastering his first clear and back timing. I haven't watched him play, but I'd bet any amount of money that he doesn't do his first clear optimally and probably takes a lackluster first recall; which LITERALLY can be the difference between you snowballing the early game vs you being behind early game. If you are a jungler below diamond, master your first clear and focus on your early recall timings. I am telling you that you will 100% climb just purely from doing that. Everything else will just come with more reps and experience. 'OK last time I was in this scenario, I did Y and X bad thing happened. I am going to try Z instead this time!' Your first clear is about as set-in-stone as anything will ever be in the jungle, which is why maximizing your efficiency there is the best 'will carry over to every game' thing you can do as a jungler.
If you're taxing lanes because you take the 10cs/minute that literally, then you're just a complete moron. It's meant to show you how slow you play. If you're an average 5cs JG player, you need to be aware that it's a problem.
Anyone who is already seeking league content could easily open a canyon steam and compare how they clear jungles. If you have a brain, this is what you would do to find out how to achieve this 10cs goal.
I enjoyed this so much because I’ve watched both of these guys for years and they finally get together and have a chat. Both great minds when it comes to league. It just goes to show that league/league coaching can be viewed and executed in many different ways. I look forward to seeing LS on the BBC. (Pun intended)
I didn't
@@bertram1724brave
Okay, so I haven't watched any of this yet, but I want to say this right away; I've followed LS for many years now, starting some time in 2017 if I remember correctly and I always thought that he is a massively important figure for the scene and extremely smart about the game but I also always felt that he is a terrible teacher to actual beginners and obviously sometimes has trouble conveying his thoughts in a way that doesn't come off as arrogant or condescending to other people.
Curtis has been very influential to me, especially when it comes to mindset and how to approach the game as whole. I've been listening to the Broken by Concept podcast on and off for a few years as well. In the latest episode Curtis and Nathan talked about LS and Curtis said that LS doesn't even recognize his existence and honestly, I could totally see LS behaving that way. Seems like I misjudged him and I'm very happy to see these two having a talk together and discussing their thoughts about the game eye to eye.
Hey LS, your ideas are so fundamentally true that I was able to apply them in my career as a software developer successfully. Huge salary jumps in my first few years. Was able to easily switch companies because my knowledge was fundamental and not coupled to the latest trends and frameworks. Thanks for everything, you were a huge influence in my life for many years now. Not even playing league btw
I'm so interested in this. I have studied some computer science and some philosophy, and am I long time LS viewer. So I see similar patterns and themes among these domains, but I have a hard time nailing down a precise mapping. Any examples you could share?
care to explain?
Sure here's an example: in my previous job I was required to learn the frameworks spring boot and angular. They make development easy by doing a lot of stuff for you underneath the surface (like implementing database connections, authentication protocols, role based access etc). LS would call using frameworks cheating similar to how having easy waveclear keeps you from having to know about wave control and posturing. But I was not satisfied with simply learning how these things are done using this particular technology. Instead, I learned the underlying principles (debugged network communication manually with curl, looked at and decrypted packages with wireshark, wrote sql queries by hand and looked at the query execution plan, ...)
When I switched my job, my new company had a very different tech stack - Had I just been content with knowing how to use the frameworks, I would have had to start at 0. But instead I understood almost everything instantly because the fundamentals didn't change.
One thing LS often brings up is the philosophy of "A punch is just a punch, a punch is more than a punch, a punch is just a punch". To me it means for example:
Step 1. A cache is just something to make frequently used data more quickly accessible. (ignorance of underlying concepts)
Step 2. There are many different kinds of cache - you can get data over network and store it in a database table before it's needed. But if you do that - how do you know if the cached data is still up to date? There's a whole topic of "cache invalidation" (There's more to it than previously recognized) Everytime I hear about caches, I'm now thinking about cache invalidation to fully grasp the topic.
3. I've understood cache invalidation, it's a natural part of dealing with caches. I have my mind free for the next topic. Caches are just a mechanism for keeping frequently used data quickly accessible.
@@gu1581Amazing. I got frustrated in a CS class because we had to use Gradle for Java development, and it is a tool that obscures all the fundamentals. I am just not confortable using a tool like that if I don't understand it first.
The other part you mentioned sounds like building a conceptual hierarchy and automotizing previous knowledge.
Some of the themes I recognize from LS are in epistemology, what is the nature of knowledge and how do we prove things. He is extremely analytical and deduced conclusions from his theories, he also is constantly updating his theories based on the new information and innovations that can be demonstrated to be possible
@@gu1581Another theme is about people getting stuck in metagames or traditions, which are heuristics to provide a simplifiied template to deal with the complexity of a game or of life, but the problem comes when people start treating that tradition as the game itself rather than an approximate strategy. The pathways to success that run around that metagame or tradition are not considered. It actually takes a lot of processing power to be able to step outside these frameworks and consider the raw material in all its complexity.
Annie is putting 100kg on the bar immediately analogy worked really well imo
IT HAPPENED POG - I heard the BBC (Broken By Concept podcast, no the other thing) about they would love to talk to LS and it happend :D
Yea this is awesome. Two figures I appreciate and respect both more after seeing y’all talk it out!
when LS agreed to try to come onto the BBC podcast i teared up a little bit because i know the conversions between Curtis LS and nathen are going to be very good and insightful when they have more time to talk about the game and having LS read nathens mailbag would be so good to see. I know LS gets busy but i would love to him become a semi regular guest to talk to the Curtis and Nathen at hype times during the year season start or end.
Decent debate guys! Both takes have good value in it and there is not really one right or wrong. Same as in league it's not really as black and white as things may seem.
my goat!
Yo made me switch my OTP to syndra the guide was great
@@quoderatdemonsame
Curtis Advice will help 100% of players, LS advice will help 2%!
LS: smart people will find all the fundamentals that need to be learned from the goal of 10 cs per minute which is not important and unachievable
Curtis: why not just tell people the actual fundamentals?
thats basically the conversation, like 10 cs per minute is a buzzword that covers off the incompetence of the coach in every way because viewers can interpret it anyways they want and its compelte useless in actually improving at the game in the grand scheme
Like some other commentor said, LS is basically banking on the player to use their brain to break down the fundamentals. While curtis is giving away those fundamentals. I think like curtis said in the beginning, most people cannot think at that level especially for video games (except pro players in similar/other games) and by doing that LS is overly relying on their student intelligence (which is a variable and kinda weird since LS is very low variables kinda guy). But if successful the student of LS once they "auto" learn those fundamentals it becomes second nature...but yeah both of them make good points however curtis touches more people with his method where LS kinda misses most of those times..
@@H1nted its like saying learn to build a rocket, but youre not allowed to talk to anyone or read any books ever, you have to invent physics yourself and piece it together from there.
This is a fair assessment I think. This has always been my main problem with LS' mindset. I watched him for years and got no better at all. I watched Curtis and skyrocketed almost immediately. I think Curtis fundamentally understands the mind of a bad player infinitely better.
@@AccordZeroGG An actual analogy would be a highschool/college subject that give learning goals for their students. Then give them time, library, and google, but minimum to no instruction or handholding, not even a guideline
@@DERWYDD666 Yes, I think it's clear they speak to two different demographics, and two different time periods. LS has a relevant amount of time coaching low elo people, many years ago. Curtis has a large amount of time coaching low elo people, today. The majority of LS' work is around top level gameplay, where Curtis definitely looks at the Bronze to Diamond player a lot closer, and isn't trying to teach advice that a Master tier player would benefit from most. It's easy to see that LS expects a level of general understanding and analytics that the average person doesn't intuitively understand, while Curtis will continue to break down a topic until he is at the same level as the person he's coaching.
At around 15:13 i think you're misspeaking or mistaken.
A layman's term is a term that anyone should be familiar with. Ex. Saying "the flu" instead of "influenza A"
If you instead have a term that has a bunch of extra context and the amount of context you understand for that term depends on how familiar you are in that particular field, then what you have instead is jargon. So from what you're saying 10cspm is jargon. Its not just that some people can use thet info and some can't, its that the statement itself is counter productive to anyone that doesn't already understand the jargon.
So basically what you are doing is that for people who dont understand the jargon youre asking them to set a goal which you already know is unimportant and unachievable (by your own admission in this video)
And for people who do understand the jargon you're not giving them any new information at all.
In effect, you just aren't saying anything at all by giving 10 cs per minute as advice.
I always followed Coach Curtis and I swear I just reached GM on this because partially due to his content. I've always recommended him to others.
(I like bother creator btw, both LS and Curtis. They teach in different ways, but both are amazing)
In reality, both of the coaching approaches should be used. LS’s approach gives long term goals which gives a sense of urgency realizing how far away someone is from that goal. It issue is that a player might not know exactly what they need to do. Essentially they see the forest but they don’t see the trees.
Coach Curtis solves this by breaking up the task into smaller actionable steps. This helps a player know exactly what they need to do. The issue is that the player can get complacent because the coach will need to do the thinking for them, and the player just follows along. Instead of viewing the game as a long goal, getting into the details can be distracting. Missing the forest for the trees.
Ideally you would start with the big picture, the player attempts to play and think through what they need to do, and they check in with the coach to see what they are missing or confirm they are thinking about the game correctly
LS works with pro players who already have a strong self learning system in place. These are the kids who reach challenger in their early teens. They have no issue with identifying issues and solving
Coach Curtis deals with low-mid elo players. These player struggle with decision making and issue spotting. So these players need to have ideas laid out for them.
The disagreement makes sense considering the type of players these two coaches work with
True to an extent, but Coach Curtis (and by extension Nathan Mott) go out of their way to give players the tools needed to make long term improvements through their podcast and other resources. They teach how to vod review, identify mistakes, and ultimately build the skills needed to be self sufficient on ones climb. Their podcast and TH-cam channels are structured so someone can figure out how to improve without needing their coaching services.
It’s worth mentioning Curtis and Nathan both coach players of all elo brackets, not just lower skill levels. Their coaching began as platinum + programs but below platinum coaching is a relatively new venture for them. They also have experience in the pro scene with the team Dire Wolves (Curtis was head coach, Nathan was owner).
I agree, the issue here is that LS’s advice here is not appropriate for ludwig who is a grown man in bronze that just started playing league. Curtis is arguing that it will do more harm than good which I totally agree with.
Very good comment, I also want to add that also LS is used to deal with exceptional young talents that are way more intelligent than your average joe...so yeah maybe ludwig is intelligent in other ventures in life but that advice will only work with people who are hard wired to understand league without trying .
Yeah, two different coaching styles that have formed due to the specific needs of the students.
I agree with coach Curtis, especially on the topic of the average low-elo player. LS seems thinks low-elo players are capable of a lot more than they really are.
LS saying a year to get from silver to emerald is too long for the average is insane to me. I have been playing the game with friends for over 10 years, and most of them who still play are not even emerald. I would love to see how LS would react to low elo students nowadays.
Amazing video guys. Mature, respectful conversation from leaders in the LoL community is what we need! It would be amazing to see the conversation continue on the BBC podcast. LS is an OG in the LoL community. And more recently over the past 2-3 years, Coach Curtis has been building a great coaching platform and reputation as a passionate coach who wants to help the everyday Solo Q player reach their goals.
More conversations between you two would be great for EVERYONE!
Really enjoyed the back and forth from you both and the arguments from both sides. Hard to believe this was an hour and twenty but hey I could have gone for another hour!
I liked how they frame the 10 CS per minute concept on the podcast. Technically all they were saying is that the cs per minute is more a byproduct of other skills than a skill per say. It’s as is you were saying focus on farming and you’ll hit plat but the 10 cs per minute is more like you got there because you farmed well, you did great macro, great micro, etc etc. So saying focus on the cs per minute will sound like focus on farming for most and “could” worsen some1’s performance if they just go all in on farming trying to reach 10 cs/min through pure farm and not efficiency of everything
I think most people dont realize that Coach Curtis was initially a high elo/pro play coach.
32:31
Okay been a while since someone cooked LS on his own channel. I actually would have said the same thing, 10cspm for a jungler is some awful advice. In the context of someone, even someone who is well versed in esports, it just doesn't matter. It may even make a person lose out on certain opportunities really. Jungle as a role is supportive in nature, you are reacting and anticipating what will happen in certain lanes.
You need knowledge about waves states, camp, and objective timers while also knowing key item breakpoints. What matters more for a jungler is gold generation. That is, how much do you earn in the game, this takes into account camps, ganks, shutdowns, towers etc. If you're able to keep up or even get ahead of laners (ADC, MID, TOP) then you should climb. You're stronger than they are, so you should see more success.
For example, if you full clear fast enough. You will literally have about 30 seconds of free time before your next camp spawns. You can force a gank really and still be efficient. That's what efficient clearing buys you. It gets you time do whatever.
If you add tracking enemy jungle, then you start stealing one or two camps. Matter of fact, you can even find yourself stealing three if he is trolling on the other side of the map. Now you're realistically in range of 10cspm should you pick up farm from laners as well.
All in all, I agree with Curtis. Even if the idea is that the advice is curated for Ludwig. It's extremely dangerous advice to give people. Especially on a public platform, where it will be misinterpreted.
I also think it's strange for him to curate advice for a player who he doesn't personally speak to and can't have deeper conversations about how to improve at the game. I watched one Ludwig game via Midbeast and even though I don't main jungle I could instantly tell that Ludwig's issue didn't lie in him necessarily not valuing farm but the fact that he had in my opinion a flawed idea of the game and soloq in general. Ludwig could not say no to his team because he sees League as a team game, and while it's true it is, soloq is still different from organized play. He felt that as Amumu, he had to always be a playmaker and therefore be present in every fight or force fights without reflecting on whether the fight is necessary or something he can realistically accomplish. In other words, he struggled to differentiate between good and bad ganks and he struggled to identify his team wincon and which side is strong or weak. These issues are unrelated to farm and won't be solved by have him focus on farming because in his mind the issue is that if he's not present in a fight his team will lose without him. He will do his gromp and ignore his top laner pinging for help when they're already the weak side and then feel it was his fault for his top laner dying.
If he reshaped his understanding of the game to try to always take accountability for what his team does, he would see significant results because he would stop feel like he must be present all the time and always make plays for his team.
So true, what's funny is that Agurin is literally LS' evidence for his argument being correct, technically (Since Agurin's frequent EU rank 1 jung). I watched recent gameplay of him on Neeko jung and literally all he does until 20mins is clear his camps and counter jung for 9+cs/m. He only realistically joins his team in the mid to late game and he ignores most objectives until then. BUT his awareness of all of your aforementioned factors (And then some) is the only reason he can play that way. And my slight awareness of SOME of these factors is why his ultagreedy gameplay is mindblowing to me (And I'm a kindred main lmao)- He literally passes up the freest 10%hp ganks and objectives to clear camps its wild
Congratulations and committing the exact same logical fallacies and missing the same point as Curtis. Everything you just brought up is within the 10cspm package and it's not shit that can be conveyed in a tweet, but it is stuff that someone with an analytical mindset will be able to unpack from the 10cspm goal over time.
Jungle is absolutely not an inherently supportive role. If you are playing in organized play, that playstyle by far dominates, but in soloq it is hardcore a selfish role. There is a reason high elo junglers climb with Graves, Nidalee, Evelynn, Karthus or Lee Sin. These are not support champions. As a jungler you can play as the main strategic focus of the team with 4 powerful minions playing around you.
@@yGKeKeif you can’t convey your message in a tweet then why are you even talking? Just keep quiet instead of spewing some pseudo intellectual nonsense with the disguise of being a ‘packaged message’. The fact is LS has no clue what ludwig is like and assuming a complete league newbie like him would extrapolate all that data from a simple tweet is just laughable.
Finally seeing coach Curtis with another big league name! Curtis and Nathan are both awesome!
Here we can see the best coach of all time, talking about the game he loves with this other LS guy..
Not only is it more rare now to go from silver to emerald in a year, but LS is drawing on experiences from the past where he'd coach people who got astronomical results pretty quickly. The league player base now is MUCH better than it was even just 3-4 years ago. Players are improving year after year, so to climb ahead of them you have to improve that much faster than them.
Also, I think LS and Curtis to a lesser extent, have a selection bias effect. The people selecting LS are probably super into esports. The type of people he is friends with are more likely to be the type that is just naturally good at games. Curtis has this as well, to a certain extent, but to a much lesser degree.
@@MIKAEL212345 I think this is much more true for LS than Curtis, since LS only really cares to coach talents. Curtis probably does this to an extent as in people who reach out to him say they want to go pro and want Curtis to help them, but Curtis doesn't favor his coaching towards that clientele but LS does.
The players between Silver and Emerald are not "so much better" than each other it's slightly more difficult because the system is still adjusting but all that happened is that the lower middle of the mmr system got face rank pulled down.
@@EpicVideoMaster11 this is what curtis is talking about. you do not realize how the game is because you haven't had that journey in a long time. it is really hard to get from silver to emerald whether you want to admit it or not. It's just obviously true cause otherwise people would never be stuck in silver.
@@MIKAEL212345 how is that so? People were stuck in silver in years prior, literally nothing changed about that. Now, there were adjustments, specifically cause the split of ladder ranking used to be something like 30 per cent bronze, 40 per cent silver and 20 percent gold or something like that and now it's way more evenly distributed and yes, possibly true some concepts are now better understood by the masses than before, but also a lot more concepts have come up since then which are still misunderstood or completely missing from lower elo.
I would actually argue it was way harder to climb back then, with the top ranks being such a low percentage of players, shit lp gains, promos and all of that + no lp forgiveness for afks, more lp punishment for dodges and whole lot more stuff.
Hey yo, just appreciate you doing this instead of starting drama or sending passive aggressive stuff in DMs. This type of behavior of just talking it out respectfully is really cool!
My favorite part was Curtis' perspective on Annie.
I had always thought of her as an easier champ, despite never finding winning on her to be intuitive, even if it seemed "simple" (just guarantee last hit with q and hit a team wide point and click stun+damage combo, or pick on a lower elo lane mistake at some point and snowball enough to kill your lane opponent will full burst on cd).
I think LS is a bit rigid when it comes to acknowledging how skill brackets have changes, because the higher up one goes, the less drastic the change is. Curtis talking about Annie, with her more recent adjustments factored in, give some perspective about how her emphasis as a champion has changed, in relation to a game with rising skill floor denominations.
I think a better metaphor than the gym is learning dance--since there is more emphasis on technique and balance, after learning steps and stylistic basics and the basics of moving one's body, and where ceilings can diverge and stretch far in unique ways (playing Azir might be like mastering ballet, Yasuo more like a faster paced flamenco, Kaisa like gymnastic dance, Zoe like Breakdancing -- people could probably match styles with champs better than this).
I think something else is lost in each of their perspectives on Annie in the current landspace, that betrays LS' point especially. She seems like one of the champions whose intuitive gameplay might be more likely to have her be learned in a direction that takes one further away from optimal play, in a way that's almost akin to LS' mention of "cheating". Annie seems more like a champion whose obvious advantages become more of a crutch, and actually come to limit a player's vantage point for the game, because the temptation to lean into and identify with her teamfight strengths and waveclears overshadows a lot of the min-maxing of her range and control that will eventually cause a player to really reach elite status. I'm not saying that she shouldn't play towards her strengths, but that her obvious strengths overshadow others in a way that might dull one's learning if they're on a path to elite status.
It might just be the difference between LCS and LCK Annie, but I'd think LS would care more to emphasize that, and want to instill that mindset from jump. I'd think advocacy of a champion like Viktor who at least needs to utilize autoattacks would leave less helpful perspective on the table while remaining intuitive.
Annie is more of a "I want to hit X rank" champ than a "I want to learn League of Legends" champ.
Annie is fine for both people, but for those that value learning the game, they're probably more likely to move on to a different champ once they get what they want out of Annie than someone whose only goal is to hit emerald or diamond. In that case, it doesn't matter if you end up using Annie's advantages as a crutch, since the rank is all that matters.
IMO, Curtis put way too much value on Annie's stun. As long as you have it when you need it, it doesn't matter if you cycle spells. I got the impression while he was talking about her that he was talking through the lens of holding onto it the whole time, meaning you can't use your abilities to wave clear anymore.
@@cascadingdreams8743 I think you totally nailed that description. That seems to be her role.
Curtis' I can't use the stun point was pretty silly, especially as it relates to the lower ranks -- you can hit the wave and the opponent often enough.
I appreciate your thoughts and time typing them out. Thanks!
for me the idea of annie is her kit is giving you the feel of so many champs
Q gives feel for the "auto" spells like senna lucian Q's or MF or the kits that have abilitys they use has a second auto but its a spell like panth W or TF gold card fiddle Q lots of CC abilitys giving a feel for both and when to use both and how to hold onto a stun
W is like a melee AoE ability renekton camile W sett W the stun is abilitys like skarner R yone Q3 these AoE stuns
E is the shield lots of supports use or champs like sett use or ivern is the speed boost of ziliean and gives a true feel for them and even has her R to show when to shield a ally over themselfs
R is the worse for this argument of her kit to show my point of view has its mainly the super ults like ori R or they are abilitys like yorick R or shaco or ivern showing how to control more then 1 champ and getting used to playing with the "2v1" and gives the feel of say lulu with a cc a shield and these ways to show how to move with a adc
so its just gives the challenges of many classes keeping them learning and find what they want "i like annie Q i want more annie Q" you might go camile sett lucian senna or maybe TF or viktor you want more of the W then renekton might be great or yone want the E? then supportive characters like karma ivern lulu or lots of others you want melee self shielding champs shen or sett or lots others did you love using the R? then iverns or shaco becomes a great jump off point to learn what you want to play and due to how her challenges show how a massive amount of champs works and fundamentals (say you got plat with annie and then want to get more out the game at least)
like i find it a champ to always be able to recommend has even if it ends up not being a favo character of theirs they will find something they like about them
I feel like the whole Annie is basic and easy is weird.
She got outranged, can't trade, bad waveclear, bad auto animation although good range. Every champ has some kind of 'cheat' or identity, The fairness of Annie made her a hard mode laning, not a neutral option
I think both of you come from a place that isnt necesarily wrong and its a super interesting discussion to have.
To take the chain analogy, Coach Curtis emphasizes how to build the links in the chain while LS shows where the chain leads.
I would love more content like this
Where we can settle disagreements or even share ideas in a space that's educational for all
This conversation was very interesting, I would like to hear more episodes if you're both willing to do that on other subjects because it forced both of you to explain your reasoning in depth and consider counterpoints in a thoughtful way which I found very valuable.
Regarding whether one coaching session would make a meaningful difference, it absolutely CAN!
I had a coaching session with Shok a year ago (part of coach curtis crew now, but wasnt then) and he pointing our leaning and warding, timing CS with minions, tracking jungler, not getting peppered by range minions to death etc.
I took that on board, and worked on it over months and months and improved.
For some people, they just need to see it and then run with it.
I think Curtis is right regarding over-complication. LS can have a habit of talking over people's heads, or trying to lay out concepts that are beyond the level of your average player.
but you have to be above the average player to climb? If you are an average player, of course you are going to be stuck in bronze-silver whereas if you are trying to climb above the average then you would have to understand new concepts in order to become better at the game (hence being better than the average).
@@Alexandthenewwing overcomplicating things doesn't help at all, sometimes I've got no idea what LS is even trying to say as a diamond player so how is a bronzie going to know what to take away from it
@@eVill420 Well at that point you aren't even trying to learn at all. How could you listen to someone, then say it's too hard to understand and then question why you are not improving. If you are trying to learn/improve you should be able to take the substance of what someone is saying and mold it into your own words so you can understand better. It's something they teach you in primary school.
@@Alexandthenewwing You dont have to be above average to climb from the get go, thats the point. You start below average and have to become above average later on by learning. But you don't teach people math by starting off at algebra or something like that. You start with the basics, then move on to bigger things.
@@evenask Yes I agree, you just reworded my statement to try and disagree with me. Also if this is your standpoint then Annie as a starting point would be better for a new player to build the fundamentals such as csing, resource management, hp lethals, etc. Meanwhile telling someone to pick Brand, instantly clear the wave and bypass these core concepts is the better way at teaching someone the game?
you can really see LS growth over the years from this video, before he would explain why he is solely right on his opinion but now hes starting to understand people a lot more and you see the growth in his explanations and how nuances are misunderstood or there is too many assumptions that need to be made by an individual. Curtis is right about how hes become detached from reality when it comes to use normal players, which isnt a bad thing, His career led him down this path of focusing on the 2% and he is amazing at that. The average person takes more time to get better because the people paying for coaching are usually people with money to spend on this kind of privilege so its fair to assume they probably work a lot too. its hard to get good at something fast when you can only spend a few hours here and there on a game.
"We both love League" , "Well..." 😂
I love the fact to see LS and the BBC or Curtis in general come together for a nice talk. Also nice seeing the 2 different Views and dissagreements from 2 educational People in the scene I followed a lot in my league journey, and also respect their points. firstly and still ls then later finding the bbc.
Very nice, looking forward for another talk maybe in the future!
Wow, didn't think this would actually happen
Two ELITE coaches in the community having a discussion like this needs to happen more often this content benefits the community as a whole
Respect, and much love to you both for putting your reputations on the line for the evolution of the ecosystem as a whole. We needed this.
As an Emerald player my view point here is LS’ way of thinking about the game at a solo q level is outdated. From my viewpoint I believe his way of improving is heavily lane focused. Coach Curtis’ view is more broad than that.
As a player that has played and watched the game for over 10 years laning phase is not nearly as important as it was 5 years ago. Win lane lose game was a very popular saying back then, today it’s not mentioned nearly as much. Although wave management and wave control are more important to allow you to move around the map freely. With bounties, obj bounties, dragon stacking, grubs, rift herald and all of these things laning phase is far less important and also much shorter.
Glad to see my 2 favorite coaching personalities do stuff together, would really like to see more from you two!
I think coach Curtis actually won this debate. First time I've seen ls listen and actually concede points
I’ve followed both of the content creators for quite some time. This was quite enjoyable to see 2 adults respectfully disagree while also listening with open minds. We need more of this.
The analogy to bodybuilding information, in my opinion, is fitting. It made me think of the recommended protein intake per pound of body weight. Generally, 0.8 grams per pound should be more than enough, especially for beginners, as they likely aren't consuming enough in their normal diet, even without weight training. I once had a guy at GNC tell me I should be getting 2 grams per pound, which not only stressed me out due to the logistics, but is also overkill, even for advanced lifters. I think a similar effect occurs when you suggest something like that to an Iron/Bronze-level jungler who is currently averaging 4/5 CS per minute. I believe Ludwig's response to the tweet shows that the implied context didn't come across as clearly as intended.
You both are right, he just cant get past that he is talking from a general perspective on the average iron/bronze player, and you are talking about the 2% thats gonna take more time to think everything through and is passionate about improving rapidly. You guys were both correct if you listen to each other with the context of who you guys are intending the words for.
Hi LS,
I don't usually comment, but I've been enjoying both your and Curtis' content for a while and I wanted to share my 2 cents, I see a lot of positive comments here, but I kinda came out of it with some disappointment.
This isn't about the actual conversation topics at all, rather I found kind of disrespectful some of the things you said, particularly implying that Curtis is in some way trying to slow down the progression of his clients as a business model to get them to come back for more and also that he talked about the 10CSPM topic on his podcast to spur his viewers into making this conversation happen and somehow "leech" off your obviously larger viewerbase and community.
Now I don't know if I got the wrong impression but this is how your comments came out to me, obviously I might be wrong and in any case you are free to have your opinion on the matter and share it if you like, just wanted to share my impressions, even if you do believe those things I think implying them and discrediting a colleague of yours is in bad taste, especially given how influential you are in the community.
Don't know if you're going to read this, if so thanks for all the effort you put in the scene, just wanted to give a different point of view.
I agree
Curtis take on Annie is so spot on. She is not a good champ to learn fundamentals as a new player.
YES BEEN WAITING FOR THIS VIDEO TO DROP
A point about quicly climbing through the low elo ladder: For a lot of players the difficulty in climbing comes from the fact that they want to enjoy the game but derive pleasure fromt he game by doing basically everything that slows down progress: Playing a large champion pool of difficult and hyper unique champtions, playing with friends just for fun on multiple lanes, playing infrequently with days off in between, not taking accountability for the outcomes of games, not play ranked actively, watch videos of high mmr players just stomping with weird builds instead of higher quality educational content and so on so forth. To train such players often you need an incremental approach where you help them build one good habit at a time that is gonna pay off and make them improve. Of course if you can take a silver player and implement all the right habits at once and maybe even support them with good feedback you can help them improve tremendously fast. However a lot of players don't have the discipline or motivation to implement such changes and if you lay all that on them they will either quit the game or just give up on climbing all together.
He actually made it happen gg coach Curtis and ls actually op content
Coach Curtis and ls on a 2 hour video came out before gt6 I can’t believe it
Phenomenal video. Both of these coaches have had massive positive influences on my journey and career in League. I would love to hear more discussions around other topics! Maybe LS could be a guest speaker in the one Curtis's podcast episodes in the future!
Edit - I just finished the last few minutes and Curtis actually invited LS to the podcast. That would be awesome! There is a lot of philosophical ground uncovered for sure.
awesome discussion, love both of you guys!
17:30 love the mention of RP, Dr Mike is an amazing fitness expert, learning a lot from him and I'm glad LS had success with his fitness using Dr. Mike's videos
I can see both of these sides and I really like what you did for this video LS in showing both sides. I can say that I knew where the coach is coming from (especially with Annie) but at the same time, I would say that I have found more success with your teachings. Even with Annie, I have learned a lot about the game (my rank doesn't reflect it but it is because I play very little due to life) but even just learning what you say made me a better player. I think this might just be different philosophies but I really liked you bringing this person on and talking about this. Keep up the amazing work you always do and thank you for being awesome mate!
LS is the coach for us neuro divergents and coach curtis is the coach for the neuro typicals pretty much based on this convo
A fun discussion. This to me sounds like two different but effective teaching methodologies one removes aspects of the game to reduce mental stress I.E champ ez wave clear can focus on learning trading, resetting, etc. Vs a champ that is extremely punishing if you don't properly learn the core mechanics, so it only gives you gratification if you get really good at the harder mechanics like spacing and threatening. I think both work but for different people, if you are someone that has a 9-5 plays maybe a couple of hours a week Curtis approach is easier and gives faster results. (also better in a coaching module to get returning clients as it gives more evident results usually). But LS point is better for people where league is their main hoppy as if you learn the advanced mechanics everything else will be easier in comparison and you will in the end be a better player (reaching for the stars) than the one using the Curtis approach (Reaching for the sky). However, the LS approach takes a lot more time and self-discipline so if that makes you quit halfway it too would be a redundant training method for that person. The best training is the training that gets done unless you're going to be a professional athlete. But just depends on the person like all teaching. Great video hope to see more like this. (just a fun thought after watching to min 47 so might miss something xd)
So happy this happened!
Mad respect to you LS
17:00 I don't think it matters how other people read the statement being made if the person it's directed towards is able to understand it 😅
But he was adressing lud, an iron/bronze player. Specific statement only work when you know the inner working of a person. A better first advice is a general one and one that is understandable by most people.
@@H1ntedkinda ignoring most of the conversation as well as he isn't a generic bronze player 😅
how tf is he gonna know if ludwig can psychoanalyze his tweet? ludwig the amumu bronze jungle that every 2 minutes makes a mistake and then says "i have a disease" lol.
I really like the 10cs/min idea that its almost like a check but there is a minimum level of knowledge necessary to make use it. Many things work like this and you can even compare directly to the brain and how the left and right side work in tandem. It's easier to judge progress in this way. I would like to see more from LS ideas on hard concepts and the individual steps that are necessary. Even if he's done them before this new production value could be really cool to have applied to those.
LS you really read all comments, tweets and messages what an awesome debat you had
Learning to play annie optimmally will be more rewarding and reap more sucess in the long run. Playing malz or brand simply because you can avoid laning via your extremely fast wave clear than your missing out on an entire aspect of the game 😭😭 (laning phase and trading). Once you hit slightly higher ranks where players know how to punish u spamming all your abilites on the wave, than your so much further behind than if you would have played annie and learned how to shield champs, space, auto attack effeciently, utilize fog of war and summoner spells (annie very flash dependent).
Love both of these guys so glad they did this
Probably one of the few times you can see such a clash of philosophies in which both parties say so much and no one is fundamentally wrong.
WP, happy to finally see both of your views on the game in contrast. Would love to see you on Curtis and Nathan's podcast at somepoint.
I think LS is massively overestimating bronze players ability to realise that focussing on 10CSPM, bronze players would be able to successfully discover the factors would increase that.
If they knew it, they wouldn't be bronze. They would lose their mind when they actually DO get 10CSPM and lose the game because they are trading CS over being at an objective as a jungler etc
For example, maybe they end up taking bad backs, because instead of leaving the wave, they focus on getting this CS not realising that it harms their CS later.
The difference between a 5 minute mile and league is that your body will naturally improve by just going through the motions in the act of running, league you dont.
Having said that, when LS explained what he means, I think its a lot closer to coach curtis, but no one normal bronze will ever interpret his advice that way.
I have bronze friends who actually think they are playing well, and that they just keep getting unlucky, not that they could change anything.
"I think LS is massively overestimating bronze players ability to realise that focussing on 10CSPM, bronze players would be able to successfully discover the factors would increase that. If they knew it, they wouldn't be bronze. They would lose their mind when they actually DO get 10CSPM and lose the game because they are trading CS over being at an objective as a jungler etc"
This is the entire error in LS' reasoning. He thinks giving this advice will make people figure it out by themselves and it may work for some people but it won't work for everyone, and it will also only work for a minority and for those it does work for, it is also possible to ask the question how much LS' advice actually contributed to that improvement.
Also, most people don't have the time nor interest to review VODs upon VODs of themselves and pros to learn the nuances of wave states if they can even identify these things to begin with. I have a full time job and there are also other things I enjoy doing than just playing League. I acknowledge this may mean I may never get a very high rank but that's also ok with me. I don't live for League like LS does.
@@Kamishi845 Agree with most of what you said, but I do think that for a select few who lack direction more than an ability to learn, giving them a framework and then letting them fill in the lines can be very effective, so I do think LS has his value and his place.
Awsome discussion, great to see these viewpoints.
Hey guys! Great video. I loved you both and consumed both of your contents and got to take away much. I get both of your philosophies and I think this was a great and respectful clash of them :D
IT HAPPENED LMFAO. Wasn’t expecting this after the BBC episode
Coach curtis is playing chess and LS is playing checkers. What i mean by this is that Curtis doesnt actually belive most of his claims he just baited one of the most popular league content creators into an hour public video. Theres truly no way coach curtis belives all these claims and as he frequently says hes "playing devils advocate". He takes everything LS is saying takes it and analyzes as an extreme, like LS says focus on 10 cs per min in a TWEET and curtis claims he shouldnt say that because the person wont focus on anything else and wont ask themselves deeper questions 😭. Farming is one of the things in league of legends that you can consistently do, so focusing on Cs'ing optimally and learning how to do so while facing a lane or jung opponent is a perfect place to start for beginners.
Awesome conversation. Really interesting, great articulation on both sides, thank you for doing this
nah i dont believe my ears, LS gaslighting curtis for 1 hour straight and cant admit he just yapping in his tweet... imagine saying he should get 10csm but akshually he should read his mind about all of those things and he didnt actually mean what he himself type in his tweet lmaoooo
I've watched 12 min and he already changed his stance (or atleast did not give enough context to start). He said specifically that since Ludwig is a great content creator, he can be a great gamer. Even cited how competitive content creation is. I don't disagree, just find it funny because then he backtracks and says that no its because he used to play smash lol
Spot on
Yeah, this. The guy doesn't have the capacity to admit he was incorrect, even once I don't think, even when Curtis, multiple timeS, adjusts his position to the additional context LS provides.
I think it's really amusing that Curtis calling out on the BBC podcast that LS often speaks from this position of absolute authority and conviction and black/white reasoning, was totally on display during this entire discussion.
@@Big_Red_Dork he also can’t admit he’s wrong about Annie because it’s so tied to his brand.
lil play on words there I just realized lol
The main bad argument with LS, is that the 10cs/min becomes more applicable in platinum. I don't even require 10cs/min to climb in Emerald, but I would be able to break down his advice. Coach Curtis has a excellent understanding of coaching all skill levels, while LS' advice mostly applies to more experienced players.
I'm really happy that you two finally met! LS on Broken By Concept Podcast next!
I think the most important thing about LS's point is the perspective of playing a single person game, not exactly the 10 cs/m. Efficiently farming and playing the economy side of the game will get you to platinum and is the basis for everything in League. That should be easier than learning when to trade, when to go all in, when to roam, etc. Solely focusing on limiting deaths and hitting creeps is much easier than being an aggressive player. Obviously if you're a better player you can kill people all the time in lane in low ELO, but that takes a lot of knowledge and skill and ultimately is a worse way to practice than just being a consistent farmer
But it's not the most efficient way either if you wanna just outright race to plat. Just learn a cheese strategy, onetrick shaco, go blue to red or vice versa, into gank bot, find a good clear on youtube to follow it up, gank bot again until they are far enough ahead to just carry you. You don't need to know any concepts, it will just work. Also, specific advice will improve you faster, because you learned where to be on the map even if down 2 camps or how to power clear, applying the advice and getting better at the game, while the other guy is still deciding if it's better to focus on skill capped videos on power clearing or watching veigar v2 coaching.
This is genuinely a podcast, which I must admit, I really enjoy Curtis, but this is just one of those things where even tho they disagree you just still have massive respect for both. LS's perspective really gives a layering aspect to small advice and how to achieve goals, and then you see Curtis's perspective on really trying to understand how to articulate them and fully understand them in a way that helps with LS's views.
That face Curtis made when LS called Nidalee completely useless. Looks like you guys have something in common after all.
How would an elite player not benefit from playing a simple champ like Malz and then switching to Viktor once in gold? LS' response was that it was like a paid subscription but that seems like a bias more than an actual reason.
It was not an argument at all. Goalposts successfully moved
LS is basically saying that if you're not the top 2% of players who just get it instantly or will read between the lines, you're stupid, and there's something wrong with you that you're not a higher rank by now. Good luck figuring it out on your own. He is also clearly lumping all of the pre-plat ranks into one 'low MMR' category. He fundamentally doesn't know or respect the difference between Bronze and Gold, which is huge. LS doesn't have my respect.
I think is fine to say he only cares about the top 2%. If you are a coach in the NBA it doesnt mean you like to coach high school kids.
He is doesnt even coach publicly anymore, so people can go for a coach that focuses on gold players.
Nobody said anything about the *top* 2%. 2% was in reference to a statistic about the success of people's personal fitness journeys (i.e. that 98% of people fail on their personal fitness journeys) not a comment on the specific proportion of League players that LS cares about or thinks can succeed. Also, in this context the "2%" (again not actually 2% just an example) aren't the best League players, they are the people who are have the drive to seek out more information, to learn and improve on their own. You can be Bronze in League because you lack experience but still fall into the category of people LS is referring to because of your personality, drive, etc.
thanks for doing this LS! it would be awesome to see you on the podcast sometime. Its a way different vibe
This basically boils down to a methodology difference. Curtis values teaching more like a school system, where you similfy concepts early on to get the basics but will have to expand on or reteach these down the line. LS believes in placing all the resources on the table and allowing you to explore, at the cost that many learners might not be able to keep up.
But the issue a lot of what school teaches you is largely unusable in real life, is partially wrong but is designed to get you past the post (pass the test). LS’s version makes more sense as a concept because it means that those that can apply it will succeed with more information, those who can’t might fail, but that’s more because they couldn’t have necessarily applied it anyway and that’s when you get coaching of a different kind.
By oversimplifying things, you just bring down people at the top whilst enabling people at the bottom to be passable but not great. Whereas in reality it should be the other way around… then the people at the bottom can use a whole wealth of resources that allows them to understand and improve at their own pace. Instead of slowing everyone else down to suit them.
@@PeoplePleaser578yea but coaching isn't school, it's a 1 on 1 so you can adapt your approach. While giving all resources is a good way, i think for newer/inexperienced players it s probably better to only show certain tools. Like for math, we start by only positive numbers, then we are intoduced to negative numbers and finally we get to imaginary numbers. If you just give everything to someone that doesn t know what numbers are you are just going to confuse them. Incremental giving of tools is very effective for new players
@@H1nted It is and it isn’t. The problem with doing that and what LS’s overarching point about LoL in general is that it’s about getting players to think for themselves. If you guide them through it, then they will inevitably not think or try to adapt. The moment you aren’t there - They will either struggle to apply what you told them or they will just autopilot repeat everything and get annoyed that they aren’t winning.
You present then with all the ideas so you show them what is possible, but you also show them how to optimise certain things and they should be able to translate this elsewhere and adapt it. It won’t work for everyone, but ultimately most of the people it doesn’t work for, would not do anything with coaching anyway. It is like school even if it’s one on one. Like people forget how people were introduced to games… they throw you into the world and go “play this, these buttons do this” and then people over time developed their way of playing.
@@PeoplePleaser578 but teaching how to think is what makes a good teacher, if you just say fk you if you don't understand is just bad teaching
@@d4s0n282 But again your implication is that everyone is capable of thinking… which they aren’t. Hell this whole comment section is proof of that… even when LS explains his points, you still have people going “NO YOU ARE DUMB LS, FRAUD”.
It’s literally proof that some people are incapable of thinking about anything, they don’t understand nuance, they can’t think for themselves. You only have to look at politics to understand that - where most people will instantly pick a side because “Your side bad, my side good” or because they always have done, or because their parents did… they don’t engage their brain, listen and make their own choices.
It doesn’t make you a bad teacher to understand that some people are in capable of thinking or understanding… and it’s not a teachers job to try to educate someone who is doesn’t want to learn or is incapable of learning, and every second spent wasting on those people is time taken away from people who do want to learn and will do something with it.
This is why schools fail - They spend more time with the kids that don’t want to learn or are incapable of it, and less time helping the ones that do want to learn and can excel… actually excel. We teach kids that if they are good at something that they should do more research on their own time, but if they are bad then they can just be spoon fed all the answers.
Like I said to someone else, with the amount of information that exists on the internet about everything and the amount of different styles of content from high level concepts to baby’s first laning phase… if people cannot watch that and discern what they need to do in order to at minimum get to gold, odds are they will never learn and coaching is a waste of time. That is fact, you can literally watch 50 minute videos on optimal farming, optimal jungle clear, warding locations, how to improve at farming, macro concepts, build divergence… hell even what champions are effective at climbing. If from that you cannot incorporate things into your game that will help you succeed, a coach cannot teach you with any reasonable success because there is a fundamental issue with you and how you extrapolate and apply new information.
holy banger, really nice to see this collab
LETS GO! When I heard Curtis mention this in the podcast I was praying it would happen.
I think your IDea about league being single player is very solid. Ive had the same thought a while back and the 1 thing coach curtis missed is the following: It reduces tilt if you think of league as single-player. Because rather then thinking "fuck these guys, everyone is feeding" you'll be thinking "goddamn i am playing on hard more" like dark souls.
Other then that: Ls sometimes its easier to simply say "yeah my statement was very extreme with 10 cs/min and I shouldve said that its a goal which you should look towards rather then the standard" . I feel the defense of your point was more to defend your ego rather then an actual good argument^^.
Good video overall
Yeah it makes the game way more enjoyable. If you played tft , its the same feeling as low rolling, you are a bit mad but you try to get the best out of the bad situation.
Big agree on the latter part and he basically comes to this conclusion himself at 8 minutes or so. 10 cs/m is fundamentally contingent on other scaffolded game knowledge.
I think the single game advice is not only for tilt proofing but it is also to focus on your own gameplay to notice/ catch your mistakes faster.
very cool, really appreciate longer form content
LS does not even begin to understand what a new player like Ludwig is trying to figure out.
10cs per minute is impossible.
The guy does even know that ahri has a charm, ezreal has a flash on 10 second, that illoia tentacles beat you up.
There is a starting point, and 10cs is so far beyond iron/bronze that he will never get to gold/plat being told just farm 10cs.
What he needs is a baseline, a foundation to work off of. A basic understanding of progression.
While he learns champions, he needs to know camps spawn on 1:30 minute cycles. Dragon spawns on 5 minute intervals. And how to clear efficiently for the first 2 clears, and what to look for after that point. The 52cs 5 minute lvl 6 timer.
He needs literally the basics of the game.
The idea that he catered his advice to Ludwig because of his background is ridiculous and pretentious. If Ludwig was instead an Iron-ranked bartender instead of an Iron-ranked famous streamer, would LS's tips for low Elo be any different? I seriously doubt that.
Also, the 10 cs/min advice is so bad it's stereotypical, this is the same amateurish "advice" people gave 10 years ago. LS just doesn't have the patience to coach low Elo, that's all this is.
What got me out of low Elo was reviewing replays, going into detail, taking the game seriously, sticking to one champion. There were a lot of small things I had to learn besides farming more efficiently. Once I did that, I went from bronze to plat in two months (I can link my op gg if anyone wants). The "just improve your CS!" advice didn't help me at all, it's utterly worthless.
He probably wouldn't be talking to a random bartender at all if it wasn't a coaching session. In which case his advice would obviously be different because he has longer to relay his advice.
Sometimes, I do think that LS hangs around and interacts with too many elite players and people and kinda doesn't realize how the average bronze or silver player will take his words or even how they think (or lack thereof). Maybe that's not his target audience, but then maybe he's also not the best person to be commenting on what Ludwig should be doing to hit platinum when he's currently in bronze.
It's probably better than what most people would say to Ludwig. He is also a smart enough guy to understand the underlying meaning of what LS has said
@@boredindividual I think just because it's better advice than what many others would give, it's still not good. I think Ludwig would never listen to random nobodies anyway, so it shouldn't matter that there are a bunch of Twitter nobodies giving him bad advice.
Ludwig is a teenager in an adults body. So ya I agree, he probably needs the hand holding method.
Agree. It's a real problem: people who are really smart themselves, or who hang around with really smart people / top-tier performers, often lose touch with what average people / beginners actually need and what type of things they actually struggle with. And as a result they may be domain experts yet simultaneously be actually pretty terrible teachers for average people / beginners.
selfmade said ppl whose goal is 10cs/min on jungle should get shot in game omegalul
I really liked the break down of the different champs Coach Curtis mentioned, I was just looking at Win rate% so there is more too it. Each of the 5 mage champs Coach Curtis mentioned Are really solid in low mmr and start get worse pass gold elo, while Annie actually has a lower win rate in low mmr and gets better as your mmr increases. I just thought this reflected pretty well at how low mmr understands controlling the wave state with abilities while they are still learning spacing and more mechanical trade patterns.
These debate questions are more important to me than in elections
LS has a 'but' for every single piece of criticism you throw at him. Bro is a professional goalpost mover. I dont think hes even aware that he does that.
There was not a single goalpost moved here. LS and Curtis were discussing entirely different things because Curtis fundamentally misunderstands the concept of gateway goals such as 10cspm. What you call "Goalpost moving" is LS repeatedly pointing out the difference between what he said and what Curtis is pushing.
So glad u 2 came together to make this! BBCers represent!!
Its funny how pros should pick champs and drafts that are easy to play but average joe trying to climb to gold shouldnt and should pick annie.
Coach Curtis completely decimated the annie argument by getting into the specifics of her kit and highlighting her deceptive difficulty that blocks people from actually playing the game.
His beginner champions and the ideas behind them are completely solid and LS’s only argument back was “they have to use their abilities on the wave too”
Idk LS I genuinely hope you approach this with the right mindset and understand that while you illuminated a lot of ideas you also created a lot of shadows that Curtis has personally been dealing with for the past few years. And he has learned a LOT and you could learn a lot from him as in sure he could from you!
I can personally attest listening to coach curtis and their framework for climbing on the bbc made me go from being stuck in low gold/platinum to peaking masters.
He teaches people how to learn. Not how to play. Well he also does that :p
Holy shit! This is the debated I didn't know I needed!
I think this was a good interview on both sides. You admit to some basis you have and likewise from your guest. Good feedback and criticisms from both sides.