I think back when Robin was introduced, the idea of a sidekick was meant to be a reader insert, since, at the time, kids were (and are still to a degree) the target audience for superhero comics. Having a kid see themselves in a role next to the big hero is suppose to be awe inspiring qnd the fantasy of the story allows readers to believe a kid is capable of overcoming these challenges, being even more so inspiring. And as for the more horrific aspects (like the many faced in comics) its sad to say some kids already have these problems and just seeing another kid go through it maybe helpful for them to make it through.
It's funny because as a kid I remember seeing Robin as the lame player 2 and always wanting to be Batman. Which I think was Stan Lee's philosophy for when he created spider man, why make a relatable teen/kid hero a sideshow when you could make him the main attraction?
Thats what was so special about spider man (granted its also what's keeping his current story to progress at times.) The hero nobody would believe in, yet still manages to be the best. Honestly I think it was because of Robin I got into Batman comics. I was at first a huge Robin/Nightwing fan in middle school before transitioning to mainly Batman comics.
Yeah. Robin was first introduced as a 13-year-old in 1940, during World War II. I’m sure a lot of kids felt helpless and wanted to defeat bad guys. In later Batman’s Robin got a lot older, he seemed sort of 18 to 21. Then he seemed to get younger again in the animations.
I think writers missed what made watchmen work. Yes, the heroes were assholes and some did horrible things. But they were also realistic. They weren't over the top grotesque monsters. They were people. Who all had a different shade of grey to them. Honestly, i think the heroes being realistic made scenes where the comedian attempted to rape Silk Specters mom and killed his lover in vietnam much more, horrifying to read because it wasn't overdone. You didn't have that happen every other page.
Here's the thing Watchmen was less a critique on superheroes and more a take on what Superheroes would be like when trapped in a world with our politics. Brat Pack is more like "The Boys", a cynical take on what it means to be a superhero. However, Brat Pack's focus is more on a critique of the capitalist nature of Noble Superheroing. The idea of Superheroes having merch and profiting off of them and doing what they can to ensure their profits are maxed out aren't a 100% out of left field idea. It's what we do with fictional characters! The full story is taken into account when you read Maximmortal, the prequel to Brat Pack. TLDR it's a fantasy about how a thought up hero becomes manifested into real life, and how the hero's creators (expys for Superman Creators who were screwed over by DC) are screwed over by a Walt Disney type of businessman (Disney had been known to screw over creators regarding their rights/payment). The idea of theme of this overall series is essentially, "If we all exist in a world where capitalism and merchandising is rampant, why wouldn't superheroes take advantage of it? Furthermore, why would superheroes that take part in cutthroat business be above abusing children for the sake of their profits? All in all Brat Pack at the very least has a somewhat beautiful ending, instead of everyone dying and murdering in a cynical "this is why superheroes are EVIL" story, the sidekicks realize the plot that the 'heroes' had in store for them, avoid death by drinking Maximmortal's mutated blood and break the cycle, while Maximmortal is responsible for killing the 'heroes' he entrusted Earth to while he left the planet.
@@TECH097I still think it’s somewhat confusing because you would think that there would be heroes who wouldn’t trust these guys in the 1st place or even want to work with them.
@@Skibster-w9l Well to sum up, True-Man was the ONLY superhero in this world, the ONLY one who was ever a vigilante or had superpowers. The only reason Black October was able to BE superheroes was because True-Man gave Midnight Mink a blood transfusion to cure his AIDs...and Midnight Mink in turn gave it to those begrudging allies, who would become the ONLY superheroes on Earth when True-Man left. Not to mention Black October is always kind of just a "begrudging agreement", a "necessary evil" to ensure their pockets were packed and they had the means to exploit teens for their profitability.
@@zoidster2099 Funnily enough, Alan Moore agree's as I heard somewhere that he regrets how Watchmen kickstarted the infamous 'dark age' of comic books, where every comic tried to be dark and gritty, to the point of coming across as desparately trying to seem smart. Yes, I'm aware that some of this kind of stuff has actually happened to people, but that shouldn't be an excuse for bad writing.
Maybe that's true for you but alot of people like the more realistic superheros that have the same problems as people just with superpowers there more relatable
I mean, we like some suffering. If you don’t experience the lows then you cannot truly appreciate the highs. It’s a balancing act. You need strife to make a compelling character. If a character is naturally good at everything and never struggles then it’s boring and predictable.
i disagree. we don't read or watch superheros to see them suffer. we watch them to see them OVERCOME their suffering and their tribulations. we watch it to see justice be brought into the world
I agree, but DC and Marvel have been dumping on Batman and Spiderman for awhile now. Neither can be or get happy because thats not profitable or relatable. They're always in cycles of going straight up about to find peace and then brought down only to suffer, sure its relatable somewhat and that can be life, imo suffering when its done to a character enough becomes boring and stale, maybe people just wanna see peter parker get married with Mj and grow up instead of deciding mj hates peter now cause of this circumstance, maybe people wanna see Batman finally have peace and not push the batfamily every other issue. I agree thats what people like seeing but there's a point where that suffering should end.
I've grown sick and tired of the whole. "If superheroes were real, they would be assholes." It stopped being clever or subversive and is now just an excuse for writers to vent their hatred on superheroes for dominating the comic industry.
Ye imagine if there was a comic about a dude with super powers who has depresion and wants to help people As much as possible even if world shits on him metaphoricly
Im on the same boat with you on that. Especially the Warren Ellis' and Garth Enis' type of writers who project who they are on the world they write around the characters. They're violent sex pest who believe everyone is the same as them, thus they write worlds where the "heroes" are really just like them. And all the edge lords look at something distrubing and be all "its so deep and genius😮".
Honestly listening to the bit at the end from Veitch it makes me think about how more genuine Brat Pack is compared to stuff like the Boys due to the stance of each of its authors… the boys being a satire/breakdown of why super hero’s suck vs Brat Pack being about why the comic industry sucks. Which imo makes Brat Pack far more interesting then the Boys comic line
@@tylerbertram7065 I'd argue more cuz it actually gave the teens a happier ending, and watching their mentors be killed by True-Man for ruining his code as a hero.
The difference is, Brat Pack is condemning the industry and it's practices, it denounces the corruption it's had on the idea of the superhero comic. It's not afraid to delve into some of the depraved things people have critiqued it for, not just violence but aspects of racism, exploitation, sexualization. It can be too on-the-nose and seeped in metaphor, these characters are hard to take seriously cause they're not so much characters as representations. Granted, how relevant these things are are going to vary on your own perspective. But it feels more earnest, more thought-out. It's actively trying to be a horrifying experience. It's trying to hold up a mirror to all the people who voted to kill off Jason Todd back in the day. The Boys (the comic book) thinks superheroes, as an idea altogether, is stupid. It cannot take the image of a guy in colorful tights punching bad guys seriously. It has all the nuance of a teenager doodling Superman throwing up. It has flat characters which are meant to serve as stand-ins for the comic book industry, but a lot of that messaging is undercut by Garth's team of gary stus who, essentially, have super powers too and just kill all the characters too busy being perverts/idiots. There's moments of world-building and humanity sprinkled throughout, but overall I think it's just too juvenile.
"We'll stop at nothing, you see. All the suffering and the death and the pain in your world is entertainment for us. Why does blood and torture and anguish still excite us? We thought that by making your world more violent, we would make it more 'realistic.' More 'adult.' God help us if that's what it means. Maybe, for once, we could try to be kind." Grant Morrison, Animal Man. Although Morrison's run on Animal Man has nothing to do with sidekicks, it's a really interesting take on superheroes and the overall concept of depictions of violence in fiction. One of Morrison's later comics, Flex Mentallo, also talks about this in an interesting way. Your opener made me think of it.
I always thought the idea of Robin was so weird because how did batman see a kid lose his parents like he did and think. Yeah I'll make him my sideckick and make him go through the same shit I went through, like even batman hated being batman in some comics why is he letting another person experience his life?
usually, Bruce does this because He feels It is the best way for Dick to overcome what he was going through and many writers try to make it also Where Bruce at first didn't want Dick to be robin.
Had Bruce not intervened Dick likely would’ve been like Bruce, maybe worse since Bruce at least had Alfred to raise him where Dick didn’t have that. It’s shown that because of Robin, Batman also changes for the better.
@@abdallahsawalha8835 Well, Dick and the other Robins are more often the ones who insist on fighting crime with Bruce. It’s not really healthy that lifestyle has many drawbacks, but it’s something that the Batfamily do because it helps them with their trauma and helps others. Bruce doesn’t see much wrong with it until the death of Jason because he doesn’t know how to take care of children like a father at that point and he feels that it helps him cope with the loss of his parents, so he let’s them join him because of that. Also if Dick didn’t join Bruce he’d be abandoned by Bruce every night and day because Bruce’s life style didn’t account for caring for a child. Dick’s upbringing wasn’t as good as it should’ve been, but it did make him the hero he is. Bruce is also able to take kids like Jason, Cassandra Cain, and Damian and give them a life and purpose outside of criminality and being human weapons. Yes Jason Todd and Damian have their moments of relapsing into their murderous habits, but they manage to come back from those falls and those are character flaws that are inherent for them.
@@i.r.raharjo8706 Most jobs aren't vigilantes or people who can shoot laser out of their eyes. Also, you can enlist in the military at the age of 17, hell in the Uk, you can do it at 16. In the past, squires and pages were as young as sidekicks in superhero media. Anyways, implying that sidekicks are "unrealistic" is ignoring the fact that superheroes are "unrealistic" as well.
@@matthewbristol234 Exactly superheroes are supposed to be unrealistic. That's why the cynical modern "realistic" interpretation usually forget that power fantasy aspect of comics
This what baffle me too. It seems that the writer got bored or told to wrap the story up because they don't want to waste money to print extra pages so he just wipe out the sidekicks and the heroes in one single swoop and call it a day.
As much as I like deconstructions, with superhero comics, I'm kinda sick of them. I just want to enjoy some escapist entertainment, damn it! I don't want to feel bad for enjoying superhero stories!
Exactly because once a genre gets deconstructed enough times, it becomes it’s own genre. Add in the fact that the whole “Superman but evil” stick gets old real fast and it makes new titles seem repetitive. A similar situation happened in the magical girls anime community with the release of a series called Madoka Magica, a show that I love for it being a critic to the genre but hate due to the copycat series that followed that only have a malicious twist just to be different.
It's worth noting Brat Pack was an early Superhero Deconstruction and unlike watchmen actually gave a bad ending to it's villains that would seemingly be good for the world as a whole.
I don't read comics because I want the heroes to suffer and being a sidekick means shadowing a hero and staying up passed your bedtime. Don't think about it too hard, yo
I remember back in the 70's and 80's it became really popular for kid sidekicks in cartoons: examples - Scrappy Doo, Cavey Jr, Flintstones Kids ( and spinoffs ), e.t.c.
Why most of these superhero deconstruction writers always end up with the most stupidest, childish, and same plot. Oh, superhero is bad cause he is a perv or a creep. Like seriously
Your video made me realize that the context is more interesting than the book itself, I fail to see whats so good about Brat Pack, if it came out 5 years after nobody would remember it
This was gut-wrenching, however, very informative and a very good analysis of both the comic and the comic book industry. Personally, I'd start the video with the analysis as the comic book's story is not a very easy to seat through. Now I have to say that as strangling as the Comics Code Authority was for many writers, I gotta agree with Veitch. And overall, even though we look back at the Silver age of comics and laugh, it is way better than if we looked at it and thought that the stories were too sexually appealing, or exaggerated violence just for the eye grabbing of the viewer. I think that the Comics Code Authority was an important piece for getting out of that phase and making comics, mostly, deeper, by "running away" from the senseless violence and sexual content for the younger. I'm not saying, though, that these types of comics don't have the place. Very good video, great work, good luck on your journey on TH-cam, you really deserve your place in this website.
This video deserves more views and likes. This is a pretty good analysis, it's entertaining, it's worth watching it for how long it is, and so on. Made me think deeper about the comic industry further than "comic companies are greedy and have always been that way". There's more elements and problems that are associated with comics than just greed, and Bratpack is a good depiction or metaphor for it. You look deeper and you discover the rot.
Who start the idea that people enjoy watching the hero I Don't. I enjoy heroes being awesome and doing the right thing where no one else can. I mean they can struggle a bit but not all the dam time
The comic storyline of Brat Pack. It sorta reminds me of X-Statix. An X-Men spinoff about young heroes being superheroes while balancing celebrity status at the same time. That's what I think of the premise of Brat Pack and X-Statix. What I think of Brat Pack. A young adult version of The Boys, Teen Titans, The New Mutants, Young Justice, Gen 13, Generation X, Young Avengers, and The Champions in the 2010's.
Watchmen was superheroes with no one to reel them in when they go too far. Invincible was superheroes with the kiddies gloves off and death is a constant threat. The Boys (at least the show) was superheroes being controlled by greed, arrogance, and delusion. Brat Pack is superheroes if they were written by a 13 year old with anger issues after his parents didn’t let him get ice cream.
I think we don't enjoy watching the suffering. I personally feel awful seeing the character go through the pain, but love seeing them grow and overcome their suffering to become greater people. Sometimes trauma makes someone worse overall, but you can develop and become better cause of it. Not saying everyone should have to become perfect like superman, but definitely don't become batman.
Honestly, Trueman coming back instead of the Bratpack punishing the Black October still confuses me, it feels like a cop out and ruins the ending for me (as it's the only thing I could think about with this comic). Also, that illustration of a broken Chippy I looking at the toy of himself and pulling the thong will never not give me chills, belongs in an art gallery
Honestly I think it depends on who the sidekick is working with and what they can both do. If the sidekick can keep up and their partner actually cares about them, it might not suck. For example, look at Sonic and Tails. Not only is Tails fast enough to keep up with Sonic and take on similar enemies but Sonic cares about Tails, and goes out of his way to help him whenever he can.
Great video, the only other comic i could think of that dealt with this similar topic was a Korean webtoon named The Sidekicks , i would highly recommend it
Didn’t know this was a collab with mullet man comics the line read when the comic started tripped me out lol but so glad to see you guys working together love bother your Channels, keep up the good work guys
So called talentless hacks when they meet a “Gritty edgy superhero deconstruction where every hero is addicted to drugs and are crazed perverts” comic writer: 😳😳😳
It seems like your looking at this from the Nihilist side you can say everything your saying but in the opposite way too like instead of it being that we like watching them suffer we like watching them prevail or how these kids don't want to be out playing games with there friends at the park cause they went through trauma that changed they're out look and instead they would rather save lives none of these kids are forced infact most of the time the superhero doesint want them to be put in danger but they keep Presisting
Nowadays, the code looks more of a lie that didn't knew it was true. And you can expand it to most media. The fact we are seeing comics like The Boys and Invincible being praised, and concepts like "the boy scout hero" being mocked shows they had the right idea, just not the right data.
The code bred a suffocating, sterile environment where only superhero comics willing to meet its standards for "socially acceptable and upstanding" moral values could succeed in North America and other genres had to be sanitised or relegated to underground/alternative markets. If superhero comics were simply allowed to decline naturally in the 50s and 60s or exist in a more plural market rather than being given a vacuum to push them to market dominance because of moral panic induced censorship then chances are that most of these edgy deconstructions likely wouldn't exist today.
This sounds so meanspirited and edgy for the sake of being edgy. Sorry people read comics and enjoy them for escapism dude. Clearly it’s more fun to watch the sidekicks get violated and abused. Cause that’s what adult comic books are like. God it’s cringe.
It's why I'm sick and tired of the whole. "If superheroes were real, they would be assholes." Crap they we seen so many times from people like Mark Millar and Garth Ennis.
@Nightman221k While I understand that comic book heroes need to struggle to succeed... I feel like some writers do it too much (See Spider-man comics, for example) I also hate that idea of readers enjoying the misery of the characters, when some of us just want some escapism!
That is the whole point of the comic, this was make in the 80 by a man really angry with DC for censor his swamp thing but give green light to de death of Jason Todd and making Speedy a drug addict
These are really old independent comics that were the inspiration for The Boys. You have to understand that these aren't actual serialized comics but one offs of parodies. If you haven’t read the sequel then you are missing in on alot if anything this is about criticism of the comics book industry not "Hey these characters are cool let's do multi-arc stories". It's basically saying "This is disgusting look how much it resembles something that is totally repugnant" so the writer agrees with you in essence lol
Ive started doing my doing my own comics recently. Because Vietch has a point. Even now this is the case. We need to get back to what the golden age of comics was about. Perhaps no go out of our way to bastardize superheroes, but to make something worth of value and have something to say. The status quo in comics must change
0:41 I think a good thing to consider is that the kids want to They are inspired by others, given gifts of great power with a great responsibility to use, have some sort of drive, and much more which results in it being their choice to go out. It’s not safe but the adults can’t force them out of the life so the best they can do is tutor them, keep them safe, and be there to comfort them when things go wrong.
Thank you so much, I found this comic years ago due to a teacher I had. I found this thanks to a search engine that at one time was bigger the Google, man I’m old keep up the good work. Oh and I any this to my old math teacher
Ok, another comic to hate on my list, close to The Boys, Crossed and Marvel Ruins. The only thing that I absolutely adore is Dr Blasfemy, the design, the calls, the personality, it's sick
@@AugustRx yeah, but even then, it doesnt use the hole concept as it could be. Even so, some universes take that as inspiration and they work really well.
I read this comic completely and honestly I was really surprised by how… not as graphic as I thought it would be. Now this could very well be because I’ve seen stuff like The boys, berserk, & the edgier marvel/dc works and I’m desensitized, but this work was relatively tame comparatively. In fact I felt they could have used an extra issue to show the sidekicks decent, not necessarily just to show messed up shit for messed up sake but the personality change felt a bit too quick (it really did feel like I was skipping over an invisible issue) Secondly, I know a lot of us (myself included) are sick of needless superhero deconstructions, but from reading the addendum text of the book I do appreciate the original intent wasn’t just going “being a sidekick would be shitty” but instead was using the idea of sidekicks to showcase toxic/parasitic relationships adults have with children
As of this month the first issue of Book 3 of the King Hell Heroica, "True-Man the Maximortal" has been released. With how powerful this series has been in terms of it's art and writing, it's exciting to know not only are we 2 books away from the conclusion of this saga, but currently in the midst of being 1 book away!
It also would suck to be a normal civilan, like sorry boss i cant come in! My car got destroyed by the chaos, the joker posioned our water supply so i couldnt freshen up and get ready. They blew up the subway! Like im sorry! That life sounds like constant turmoil and hell And that just looks like a constant honestly! Have you ever watched dc or marvel and noticed all the constant property damage. Like welp there goes someones car! There goes the subway! There goes a apartment complex!
If you guys think this comic is nuts you should read it's prequel/sequel, Maximortal that both explains Truthman and Dr. Blasphemy origins but is also the author's hate letter to everything and everyone he hates about the comic industry and more specifically what he hates on how editorials treated creators specially using the tragedy of Superman's creators slowly dying in obscurity while spineless CEOs became rich out of their hard work. It's said love can be felt through the page of a passionate work, Maximmortal is an example that hatred can also be felt too, I have never read a comic book with so clear contempt for the industry and the people behind it before or since.
I feel like everyone is watching this video and thinking "REAL WORLD HEROES ARE BAD" It's not, it's an analogue to how comic books treat child sidekicks terribly putting them through the worst things.
@Kingcole6 I read the original, which ended very abruptly. It looks like the ending in the video comes from the paperback collection, which has a new ending. It adds the blood chalice, revised it so the heroes killed the brat pack and not blasphemy, and added the true man scene.
@@MrKing-771 Oh, my mistake. Yeah, I think the revised ending is better as it feels more like an actual ending instead of just stopping with no resolution.
I don't think I'll be reading this anytime soon :/ It sounds interesting and i like the concepts around it especially the meta text but I just want more positive energy in my life currently (ironic since my favorite videos by you are the disturbing comic ones). If anyone reading this has suggestions for hopeful positive comics let me know! It'd be very appreciated :)
No the priest was never Dr. Blasphemy. It was just the butler. The butler killed the priest, or the priest killed himself, and the butler put the mask on him to trick the heroes.
If anyone is interested in the history of horror comics and pre comic code authority their is an amazing channel Called In praise of shadows it’s a two part documentary love your videos Depths keep up the work
I wonder the same about sidekicks but specifically about the Batman and Robin Joke of them being gay but it just stay in that a joke why when You can do more whit the idea.the only other comic that i remember is Powers of Brian Bendis and that is a couple of panels for the cómic and you expect that The Boys would do that but once again is just a joke
41:44 i mean wonder woman's creator was a ragging pervert, who had a huge thing for bondage. We gonna talk about that at all? also reading comics for the right reasons. GF. Like who the hell are you to tell anyone what the right reasons to read a comic for? final thoughts, the writer of your indie comic is he was a less talented image writer, who didn't even get that far. seeth.
I think back when Robin was introduced, the idea of a sidekick was meant to be a reader insert, since, at the time, kids were (and are still to a degree) the target audience for superhero comics. Having a kid see themselves in a role next to the big hero is suppose to be awe inspiring qnd the fantasy of the story allows readers to believe a kid is capable of overcoming these challenges, being even more so inspiring. And as for the more horrific aspects (like the many faced in comics) its sad to say some kids already have these problems and just seeing another kid go through it maybe helpful for them to make it through.
It's funny because as a kid I remember seeing Robin as the lame player 2 and always wanting to be Batman.
Which I think was Stan Lee's philosophy for when he created spider man, why make a relatable teen/kid hero a sideshow when you could make him the main attraction?
Thats what was so special about spider man (granted its also what's keeping his current story to progress at times.) The hero nobody would believe in, yet still manages to be the best.
Honestly I think it was because of Robin I got into Batman comics. I was at first a huge Robin/Nightwing fan in middle school before transitioning to mainly Batman comics.
@@StephenDark8951Lego Batman and teen titans made me like Robin
Yeah. Robin was first introduced as a 13-year-old in 1940, during World War II. I’m sure a lot of kids felt helpless and wanted to defeat bad guys.
In later Batman’s Robin got a lot older, he seemed sort of 18 to 21. Then he seemed to get younger again in the animations.
That was the point.
I think writers missed what made watchmen work. Yes, the heroes were assholes and some did horrible things. But they were also realistic. They weren't over the top grotesque monsters. They were people. Who all had a different shade of grey to them. Honestly, i think the heroes being realistic made scenes where the comedian attempted to rape Silk Specters mom and killed his lover in vietnam much more, horrifying to read because it wasn't overdone. You didn't have that happen every other page.
The thing is such stuff does happen looknup interviews with people who escaped stuff it's insane
Here's the thing Watchmen was less a critique on superheroes and more a take on what Superheroes would be like when trapped in a world with our politics.
Brat Pack is more like "The Boys", a cynical take on what it means to be a superhero. However, Brat Pack's focus is more on a critique of the capitalist nature of Noble Superheroing. The idea of Superheroes having merch and profiting off of them and doing what they can to ensure their profits are maxed out aren't a 100% out of left field idea. It's what we do with fictional characters!
The full story is taken into account when you read Maximmortal, the prequel to Brat Pack. TLDR it's a fantasy about how a thought up hero becomes manifested into real life, and how the hero's creators (expys for Superman Creators who were screwed over by DC) are screwed over by a Walt Disney type of businessman (Disney had been known to screw over creators regarding their rights/payment). The idea of theme of this overall series is essentially, "If we all exist in a world where capitalism and merchandising is rampant, why wouldn't superheroes take advantage of it? Furthermore, why would superheroes that take part in cutthroat business be above abusing children for the sake of their profits?
All in all Brat Pack at the very least has a somewhat beautiful ending, instead of everyone dying and murdering in a cynical "this is why superheroes are EVIL" story, the sidekicks realize the plot that the 'heroes' had in store for them, avoid death by drinking Maximmortal's mutated blood and break the cycle, while Maximmortal is responsible for killing the 'heroes' he entrusted Earth to while he left the planet.
@@TECH097I still think it’s somewhat confusing because you would think that there would be heroes who wouldn’t trust these guys in the 1st place or even want to work with them.
@@Skibster-w9l Well to sum up, True-Man was the ONLY superhero in this world, the ONLY one who was ever a vigilante or had superpowers. The only reason Black October was able to BE superheroes was because True-Man gave Midnight Mink a blood transfusion to cure his AIDs...and Midnight Mink in turn gave it to those begrudging allies, who would become the ONLY superheroes on Earth when True-Man left.
Not to mention Black October is always kind of just a "begrudging agreement", a "necessary evil" to ensure their pockets were packed and they had the means to exploit teens for their profitability.
@@zoidster2099 Funnily enough, Alan Moore agree's as I heard somewhere that he regrets how Watchmen kickstarted the infamous 'dark age' of comic books, where every comic tried to be dark and gritty, to the point of coming across as desparately trying to seem smart.
Yes, I'm aware that some of this kind of stuff has actually happened to people, but that shouldn't be an excuse for bad writing.
We dont like watching heroes suffer. We like watching hero Triumph
In the end though, Brat Pack triumphed.
Maybe that's true for you but alot of people like the more realistic superheros that have the same problems as people just with superpowers there more relatable
Yet, people prefer to hide and live in lies than hear and survive in the truth.
I mean, we like some suffering. If you don’t experience the lows then you cannot truly appreciate the highs. It’s a balancing act. You need strife to make a compelling character. If a character is naturally good at everything and never struggles then it’s boring and predictable.
I think I love to see the duality between the good and evil
i disagree. we don't read or watch superheros to see them suffer. we watch them to see them OVERCOME their suffering and their tribulations. we watch it to see justice be brought into the world
I agree, but DC and Marvel have been dumping on Batman and Spiderman for awhile now. Neither can be or get happy because thats not profitable or relatable. They're always in cycles of going straight up about to find peace and then brought down only to suffer, sure its relatable somewhat and that can be life, imo suffering when its done to a character enough becomes boring and stale, maybe people just wanna see peter parker get married with Mj and grow up instead of deciding mj hates peter now cause of this circumstance, maybe people wanna see Batman finally have peace and not push the batfamily every other issue.
I agree thats what people like seeing but there's a point where that suffering should end.
I've grown sick and tired of the whole. "If superheroes were real, they would be assholes." It stopped being clever or subversive and is now just an excuse for writers to vent their hatred on superheroes for dominating the comic industry.
Ye imagine if there was a comic about a dude with super powers who has depresion and wants to help people
As much as possible even if world shits on him metaphoricly
Im on the same boat with you on that. Especially the Warren Ellis' and Garth Enis' type of writers who project who they are on the world they write around the characters. They're violent sex pest who believe everyone is the same as them, thus they write worlds where the "heroes" are really just like them. And all the edge lords look at something distrubing and be all "its so deep and genius😮".
It’s why Invincible was such a breath of fresh air.
Superheroes weren’t written to be assholes, just people.
Flawed, broken, and human people.
@@NobodyMan0yeah, shame a loot of people don't get the difference between the two.
@@SerbianSpark19 lol u mean Matt Reeve's Batman? 😅
Honestly listening to the bit at the end from Veitch it makes me think about how more genuine Brat Pack is compared to stuff like the Boys due to the stance of each of its authors… the boys being a satire/breakdown of why super hero’s suck vs Brat Pack being about why the comic industry sucks. Which imo makes Brat Pack far more interesting then the Boys comic line
Only by an inch though
They both seem like 💩 to me tbh.
@@tylerbertram7065 I'd argue more cuz it actually gave the teens a happier ending, and watching their mentors be killed by True-Man for ruining his code as a hero.
The difference is, Brat Pack is condemning the industry and it's practices, it denounces the corruption it's had on the idea of the superhero comic. It's not afraid to delve into some of the depraved things people have critiqued it for, not just violence but aspects of racism, exploitation, sexualization. It can be too on-the-nose and seeped in metaphor, these characters are hard to take seriously cause they're not so much characters as representations. Granted, how relevant these things are are going to vary on your own perspective. But it feels more earnest, more thought-out. It's actively trying to be a horrifying experience. It's trying to hold up a mirror to all the people who voted to kill off Jason Todd back in the day.
The Boys (the comic book) thinks superheroes, as an idea altogether, is stupid. It cannot take the image of a guy in colorful tights punching bad guys seriously. It has all the nuance of a teenager doodling Superman throwing up. It has flat characters which are meant to serve as stand-ins for the comic book industry, but a lot of that messaging is undercut by Garth's team of gary stus who, essentially, have super powers too and just kill all the characters too busy being perverts/idiots. There's moments of world-building and humanity sprinkled throughout, but overall I think it's just too juvenile.
Considering that Rick Veitch has done a lot of preexisting superhero comics, he seems to have insight about the comics industry.
"We'll stop at nothing, you see. All the suffering and the death and the pain in your world is entertainment for us. Why does blood and torture and anguish still excite us? We thought that by making your world more violent, we would make it more 'realistic.' More 'adult.' God help us if that's what it means. Maybe, for once, we could try to be kind." Grant Morrison, Animal Man.
Although Morrison's run on Animal Man has nothing to do with sidekicks, it's a really interesting take on superheroes and the overall concept of depictions of violence in fiction. One of Morrison's later comics, Flex Mentallo, also talks about this in an interesting way. Your opener made me think of it.
Ah, Dr Blasphemy. What a great and creepy character design
This feels like the comic book equivalent of a salty 4Chan post.
I always thought the idea of Robin was so weird because how did batman see a kid lose his parents like he did and think. Yeah I'll make him my sideckick and make him go through the same shit I went through, like even batman hated being batman in some comics why is he letting another person experience his life?
usually, Bruce does this because He feels It is the best way for Dick to overcome what he was going through and many writers try to make it also Where Bruce at first didn't want Dick to be robin.
Had Bruce not intervened Dick likely would’ve been like Bruce, maybe worse since Bruce at least had Alfred to raise him where Dick didn’t have that. It’s shown that because of Robin, Batman also changes for the better.
@@ihavenoideaatall7381 at least when Bruce is written not like a asshole.
@@ihavenoideaatall7381 Bruce is a billionaire he could've given Dick his best life if he just adopted him without turning him into a crime fighter
@@abdallahsawalha8835 Well, Dick and the other Robins are more often the ones who insist on fighting crime with Bruce. It’s not really healthy that lifestyle has many drawbacks, but it’s something that the Batfamily do because it helps them with their trauma and helps others. Bruce doesn’t see much wrong with it until the death of Jason because he doesn’t know how to take care of children like a father at that point and he feels that it helps him cope with the loss of his parents, so he let’s them join him because of that. Also if Dick didn’t join Bruce he’d be abandoned by Bruce every night and day because Bruce’s life style didn’t account for caring for a child. Dick’s upbringing wasn’t as good as it should’ve been, but it did make him the hero he is. Bruce is also able to take kids like Jason, Cassandra Cain, and Damian and give them a life and purpose outside of criminality and being human weapons. Yes Jason Todd and Damian have their moments of relapsing into their murderous habits, but they manage to come back from those falls and those are character flaws that are inherent for them.
The concept of sidekicks was made in a more innocent and fantastical mind set that it can't hold up to any realistic interpretation
But it can? All sidekicks are younger people shadowing and being mentored which is literally a common practice in many jobs.
@@matthewbristol234 yeah but most jobs doesn't involve children put in the line of fire or threat of violence and actually enjoying it
@@i.r.raharjo8706 Most jobs aren't vigilantes or people who can shoot laser out of their eyes. Also, you can enlist in the military at the age of 17, hell in the Uk, you can do it at 16. In the past, squires and pages were as young as sidekicks in superhero media. Anyways, implying that sidekicks are "unrealistic" is ignoring the fact that superheroes are "unrealistic" as well.
@@matthewbristol234 Exactly superheroes are supposed to be unrealistic. That's why the cynical modern "realistic" interpretation usually forget that power fantasy aspect of comics
I think it depends on the scenario
if Turman was watching them the whole time, does that mean he just let these psychopath run rampant and torture kids
This what baffle me too. It seems that the writer got bored or told to wrap the story up because they don't want to waste money to print extra pages so he just wipe out the sidekicks and the heroes in one single swoop and call it a day.
...huh.
As much as I like deconstructions, with superhero comics, I'm kinda sick of them. I just want to enjoy some escapist entertainment, damn it! I don't want to feel bad for enjoying superhero stories!
Same here
You should tho, you're the equivalent of a Disney adult, or a weeb. Those media formats just aren't that nuanced.
Exactly because once a genre gets deconstructed enough times, it becomes it’s own genre. Add in the fact that the whole “Superman but evil” stick gets old real fast and it makes new titles seem repetitive. A similar situation happened in the magical girls anime community with the release of a series called Madoka Magica, a show that I love for it being a critic to the genre but hate due to the copycat series that followed that only have a malicious twist just to be different.
It's worth noting Brat Pack was an early Superhero Deconstruction and unlike watchmen actually gave a bad ending to it's villains that would seemingly be good for the world as a whole.
@TECH097 Hey, I'm not complaining about that last part.
im gonna be real with you this is in no way on the same level as watchmen lmao
I don't read comics because I want the heroes to suffer and being a sidekick means shadowing a hero and staying up passed your bedtime. Don't think about it too hard, yo
I remember back in the 70's and 80's it became really popular for kid sidekicks in cartoons: examples - Scrappy Doo, Cavey Jr, Flintstones Kids ( and spinoffs ), e.t.c.
"Don't bend over in the shower Chippy" is wild.
But in all seriousness, I love when comic books critique the comic the comic industry.
Why most of these superhero deconstruction writers always end up with the most stupidest, childish, and same plot. Oh, superhero is bad cause he is a perv or a creep. Like seriously
Until this video i never even realized how many sidekicks are literal children
Baiscally all of them because they were created to give the audience someone to relate to
And until this video i didn't know Batman have used the word 'Bat-tery' before
My life is complete now
Fake fan
Like sure the Robins had it bad sometimes but imagine being speedy green arrows sidekick 😢
@@kaelanmcquerry1285 who cares?
Your video made me realize that the context is more interesting than the book itself, I fail to see whats so good about Brat Pack, if it came out 5 years after nobody would remember it
This was gut-wrenching, however, very informative and a very good analysis of both the comic and the comic book industry. Personally, I'd start the video with the analysis as the comic book's story is not a very easy to seat through. Now I have to say that as strangling as the Comics Code Authority was for many writers, I gotta agree with Veitch. And overall, even though we look back at the Silver age of comics and laugh, it is way better than if we looked at it and thought that the stories were too sexually appealing, or exaggerated violence just for the eye grabbing of the viewer. I think that the Comics Code Authority was an important piece for getting out of that phase and making comics, mostly, deeper, by "running away" from the senseless violence and sexual content for the younger. I'm not saying, though, that these types of comics don't have the place.
Very good video, great work, good luck on your journey on TH-cam, you really deserve your place in this website.
the comic equivalent of a pizza cutter. all edge and no point
I like Brat Pack, but being up there with Watchmen is a crazy take.
This video deserves more views and likes. This is a pretty good analysis, it's entertaining, it's worth watching it for how long it is, and so on. Made me think deeper about the comic industry further than "comic companies are greedy and have always been that way". There's more elements and problems that are associated with comics than just greed, and Bratpack is a good depiction or metaphor for it. You look deeper and you discover the rot.
When im in a talentless hack competition and my opponent makes grimdark superhero parodies
Who start the idea that people enjoy watching the hero I Don't.
I enjoy heroes being awesome and doing the right thing where no one else can.
I mean they can struggle a bit but not all the dam time
As fun as these grimdark takes can be, they're not something I'm buying/reading on the regular since I read comics to escape my already shitty reality
Me too
I’d recommend:
Slightly dammed
The glass scientists
Newsprints
They’re not superhero but hey escapsims at its finest
The comic storyline of Brat Pack. It sorta reminds me of X-Statix. An X-Men spinoff about young heroes being superheroes while balancing celebrity status at the same time. That's what I think of the premise of Brat Pack and X-Statix. What I think of Brat Pack. A young adult version of The Boys, Teen Titans, The New Mutants, Young Justice, Gen 13, Generation X, Young Avengers, and The Champions in the 2010's.
38:35 look at them using comic books as a scapegoat
This was unironically the worst comic book I have ever had to come across. The sheer audacity to put this lazy bumble mess next to watchmen..
Watchmen was superheroes with no one to reel them in when they go too far.
Invincible was superheroes with the kiddies gloves off and death is a constant threat.
The Boys (at least the show) was superheroes being controlled by greed, arrogance, and delusion.
Brat Pack is superheroes if they were written by a 13 year old with anger issues after his parents didn’t let him get ice cream.
Its just torture porn with no substance made out of hatred.
Not really and I wouldn't say it's mad out of hatred as that sounds silly
nuh uh. you should read the maximortal after they're connected
@@aroundtheworld1716 its slop
@@adfkzaha24 no it's not but it's fine if you dislike it. I think other people should read it though, it's great
It might be offensive but to say it has zero substance is just ridiculous.
I think we don't enjoy watching the suffering. I personally feel awful seeing the character go through the pain, but love seeing them grow and overcome their suffering to become greater people. Sometimes trauma makes someone worse overall, but you can develop and become better cause of it. Not saying everyone should have to become perfect like superman, but definitely don't become batman.
"Babe, wake up Into The Depths finally posted."
Honestly, Trueman coming back instead of the Bratpack punishing the Black October still confuses me, it feels like a cop out and ruins the ending for me (as it's the only thing I could think about with this comic).
Also, that illustration of a broken Chippy I looking at the toy of himself and pulling the thong will never not give me chills, belongs in an art gallery
That, and it doesn't make it any less of a hollow victory considering that the Bratpack still dies in the end.
Honestly I think it depends on who the sidekick is working with and what they can both do. If the sidekick can keep up and their partner actually cares about them, it might not suck. For example, look at Sonic and Tails. Not only is Tails fast enough to keep up with Sonic and take on similar enemies but Sonic cares about Tails, and goes out of his way to help him whenever he can.
I give you brat pack but you need squadron supreme too
Now this I can get behind.
Great video, the only other comic i could think of that dealt with this similar topic was a Korean webtoon named The Sidekicks , i would highly recommend it
Didn’t know this was a collab with mullet man comics the line read when the comic started tripped me out lol but so glad to see you guys working together love bother your Channels, keep up the good work guys
So called talentless hacks when they meet a “Gritty edgy superhero deconstruction where every hero is addicted to drugs and are crazed perverts” comic writer: 😳😳😳
Holy shit man, your videos get me every single time. Thank you for your hard work. Also love the voice acting!
It seems like your looking at this from the Nihilist side you can say everything your saying but in the opposite way too like instead of it being that we like watching them suffer we like watching them prevail or how these kids don't want to be out playing games with there friends at the park cause they went through trauma that changed they're out look and instead they would rather save lives none of these kids are forced infact most of the time the superhero doesint want them to be put in danger but they keep Presisting
Nowadays, the code looks more of a lie that didn't knew it was true. And you can expand it to most media.
The fact we are seeing comics like The Boys and Invincible being praised, and concepts like "the boy scout hero" being mocked shows they had the right idea, just not the right data.
The code bred a suffocating, sterile environment where only superhero comics willing to meet its standards for "socially acceptable and upstanding" moral values could succeed in North America and other genres had to be sanitised or relegated to underground/alternative markets. If superhero comics were simply allowed to decline naturally in the 50s and 60s or exist in a more plural market rather than being given a vacuum to push them to market dominance because of moral panic induced censorship then chances are that most of these edgy deconstructions likely wouldn't exist today.
This was basically The Boys before The Boys
Watch an old American cartoon called Venture brothers its practically follows the broken adults that were children adventurers and sideckicks3
This sounds so meanspirited and edgy for the sake of being edgy. Sorry people read comics and enjoy them for escapism dude. Clearly it’s more fun to watch the sidekicks get violated and abused. Cause that’s what adult comic books are like. God it’s cringe.
It's why I'm sick and tired of the whole. "If superheroes were real, they would be assholes." Crap they we seen so many times from people like Mark Millar and Garth Ennis.
@@tylerbertram7065 it’s just so old hat at this point. It’s not like it’s got a silver lining or any kind of uplifting elements.
@Nightman221k While I understand that comic book heroes need to struggle to succeed... I feel like some writers do it too much (See Spider-man comics, for example)
I also hate that idea of readers enjoying the misery of the characters, when some of us just want some escapism!
That is the whole point of the comic, this was make in the 80 by a man really angry with DC for censor his swamp thing but give green light to de death of Jason Todd and making Speedy a drug addict
These are really old independent comics that were the inspiration for The Boys. You have to understand that these aren't actual serialized comics but one offs of parodies. If you haven’t read the sequel then you are missing in on alot if anything this is about criticism of the comics book industry not "Hey these characters are cool let's do multi-arc stories". It's basically saying "This is disgusting look how much it resembles something that is totally repugnant" so the writer agrees with you in essence lol
omg omg omg a new video about bratpack!!!!!
u made my day man I swear
I knew what this was the instant I saw the thumbnail and it remains one of the most messed up things Ive read to this day.
Another great video 🤙
I love the incorporation of comic dubs in these type story breakdown videos
Yeah I want to keep adding in dubs
@@IntotheDepths511 they really help the entire thing come together nicely
Ive started doing my doing my own comics recently. Because Vietch has a point. Even now this is the case. We need to get back to what the golden age of comics was about. Perhaps no go out of our way to bastardize superheroes, but to make something worth of value and have something to say. The status quo in comics must change
0:41 I think a good thing to consider is that the kids want to
They are inspired by others, given gifts of great power with a great responsibility to use, have some sort of drive, and much more which results in it being their choice to go out.
It’s not safe but the adults can’t force them out of the life so the best they can do is tutor them, keep them safe, and be there to comfort them when things go wrong.
Another comic I didn't know I was missing!
Great video, mate!
well i assume back in the day kid sidekicks only existed to appeal to kids
I hope they make a supversive superhero who actually is a nice person
Im subscribing in hopes you’ll be covering more 80’s independent comics
Thank you so much, I found this comic years ago due to a teacher I had. I found this thanks to a search engine that at one time was bigger the Google, man I’m old keep up the good work. Oh and I any this to my old math teacher
Ok, another comic to hate on my list, close to The Boys, Crossed and Marvel Ruins.
The only thing that I absolutely adore is Dr Blasfemy, the design, the calls, the personality, it's sick
marvel ruins is not that bad tbh. It's not exceptional like what it's parodying but it's not whatever this is.
@@AugustRx yeah, but even then, it doesnt use the hole concept as it could be. Even so, some universes take that as inspiration and they work really well.
@@AugustRx Marvel Ruins writing was a rushed mess.
@@kos2919 This is way WAYY worse than a "rushed mess"
@@AugustRx The page limitation and ridiculous amount of characters was also a contributing factor.
I learned about rat pack through someone shitting on it and I've loved it since
If you need a happier comic to read Unicorn Knights of Monokeros is cheerier.
Funny enough I just bought this book last night at Baltimore Comic Con. Great video
For a second i thought you said 'sidechick' 😂
I read this comic completely and honestly I was really surprised by how… not as graphic as I thought it would be. Now this could very well be because I’ve seen stuff like The boys, berserk, & the edgier marvel/dc works and I’m desensitized, but this work was relatively tame comparatively. In fact I felt they could have used an extra issue to show the sidekicks decent, not necessarily just to show messed up shit for messed up sake but the personality change felt a bit too quick (it really did feel like I was skipping over an invisible issue)
Secondly, I know a lot of us (myself included) are sick of needless superhero deconstructions, but from reading the addendum text of the book I do appreciate the original intent wasn’t just going “being a sidekick would be shitty” but instead was using the idea of sidekicks to showcase toxic/parasitic relationships adults have with children
I hate the boys and this we get it superhero’s would be bad guys but damn can we have some hope once in awhile
Grat video I really love the Cartoonist Kayfabe episode for Brat Pack.
I love those guys
As of this month the first issue of Book 3 of the King Hell Heroica, "True-Man the Maximortal" has been released. With how powerful this series has been in terms of it's art and writing, it's exciting to know not only are we 2 books away from the conclusion of this saga, but currently in the midst of being 1 book away!
Rick veitch did one of the best teenage mutant ninja turtles stories ever look up the river arch
It also would suck to be a normal civilan, like sorry boss i cant come in! My car got destroyed by the chaos, the joker posioned our water supply so i couldnt freshen up and get ready. They blew up the subway! Like im sorry! That life sounds like constant turmoil and hell
And that just looks like a constant honestly! Have you ever watched dc or marvel and noticed all the constant property damage. Like welp there goes someones car! There goes the subway! There goes a apartment complex!
1:59 - 2:04 I used to own the graphic novel of Sidekicked.
crazy this comic got optioned but obv nothing came of it
If you guys think this comic is nuts you should read it's prequel/sequel, Maximortal that both explains Truthman and Dr. Blasphemy origins but is also the author's hate letter to everything and everyone he hates about the comic industry and more specifically what he hates on how editorials treated creators specially using the tragedy of Superman's creators slowly dying in obscurity while spineless CEOs became rich out of their hard work.
It's said love can be felt through the page of a passionate work, Maximmortal is an example that hatred can also be felt too, I have never read a comic book with so clear contempt for the industry and the people behind it before or since.
38:05 Holy crud, he’s back!
Jesus christ that twist though
Why not just watch the venture bros
A VIDEO ON BRATPACK??? YEAHHHHHHH
Ayee i recognise that voice anywhere that's the masked man
You did really good in this video
I think to they where wanted to make a movie about this in 2010
I feel like everyone is watching this video and thinking "REAL WORLD HEROES ARE BAD"
It's not, it's an analogue to how comic books treat child sidekicks terribly putting them through the worst things.
The version of the comic that I read had a different ending.
@@MrKing-771 Your copy must've had the revised ending which is...not that better, but it is much more optimistic compared to the original.
@Kingcole6 I read the original, which ended very abruptly. It looks like the ending in the video comes from the paperback collection, which has a new ending. It adds the blood chalice, revised it so the heroes killed the brat pack and not blasphemy, and added the true man scene.
@@MrKing-771 Oh, my mistake. Yeah, I think the revised ending is better as it feels more like an actual ending instead of just stopping with no resolution.
fr some parts in the video i dont remember reading them
Wertham was the Darkside and Thanks of real life
You should read the original published version of issue 5 Rick vietch completely rewrote it very interesting great vid by the way
Oh come on, the orphan trope is pure Dickens.
I don't think I'll be reading this anytime soon :/ It sounds interesting and i like the concepts around it especially the meta text but I just want more positive energy in my life currently (ironic since my favorite videos by you are the disturbing comic ones). If anyone reading this has suggestions for hopeful positive comics let me know! It'd be very appreciated :)
Question so were the priest and butler both Dr Blasphemy, taking turns in the costume to try and save the sidekicks from the “heroes”?
No the priest was never Dr. Blasphemy. It was just the butler. The butler killed the priest, or the priest killed himself, and the butler put the mask on him to trick the heroes.
i read the comic online but the ending was different and a few things you mention didnt happen, almost like i got the bad ending
Being a sidelick would suck
this just sounds like the boys, why would i read another "oh superhero bad" story
cause this one came before the boys and it's more focused on the sidekicks
It’s not often I see something that is worse than the Ennis comic version of the Boys but here we are.
@@macrocosm2778 it's not so bad and the idea behind is interesting
@@Nightman221k oh hell no don't compare bratpack to the boys comic bruh
@@aroundtheworld1716 nah this just seems like more Ennis styled garbage.
Bro is my favorite TH-camr
If anyone is interested in the history of horror comics and pre comic code authority their is an amazing channel Called In praise of shadows it’s a two part documentary love your videos Depths keep up the work
Wait... In praise of shadows? The "conservative horror movies are bad" video guy?
Is no one gonna talk about how they made the gay superhero a pedophile that molests his sidekick
good video❤ whens the boys video?
you cant have even watched the whole video yet
It’s a brat pack vid
I wonder the same about sidekicks but specifically about the Batman and Robin Joke of them being gay but it just stay in that a joke why when You can do more whit the idea.the only other comic that i remember is Powers of Brian Bendis and that is a couple of panels for the cómic and you expect that The Boys would do that but once again is just a joke
Well, now you need to talk about the rest of the stuff in tjis universe, like the Maximortal.
AGREED, I thought ir would've been better to talk about all of it together
are u posting a video by month?
Masked man is a pretty good radio host.😺
This shit traumatized me reading this
That’s the goal lol
Good video
Great Video but please bring back poly Coffee to your videos!
Why do you have this depressing worldview? People like to see the hero save the day and stop the bad guys. Isn't that why we read comics?
41:44 i mean wonder woman's creator was a ragging pervert, who had a huge thing for bondage. We gonna talk about that at all? also reading comics for the right reasons. GF. Like who the hell are you to tell anyone what the right reasons to read a comic for? final thoughts, the writer of your indie comic is he was a less talented image writer, who didn't even get that far. seeth.
Tbh I never really looked into the dude
i love your channel here in Brasil... whats your opinion on Miracleman?