FTGG should rather give access to re rolls, modifiers or other keywords. The idea of pairs is actually cool, but should not limit our bs that way. Maybe something like the markerlight table to simulate something like spotting triangulation? One observer gives access to +1AP and two oberserver to +1AP and lethal hits. Therefore those observers can’t become a guided unit at any point. Bs 3 is then fixed part of the weapon data sheets and therefore explainable through their advanced technology since if I remember correctly Tau are myopic.
Personally, I like FtGG as a rule, but it would have been nice if GW didn't then punish the faction for having said rule by forcing the "Shooting Army" to have an average BS of 4+. (Necrons have an army-wide heal/res, but I haven't heard much in the way of them losing toughness/wounds) Also, I think the -1BS on split fire is really unnecessary. I feel that just not getting the +1BS is enough of a reason to not want to split fire, so the added debuff just feels needlessly punishing.
Not sure how old this is but (from the 40k app): "Eligible to Shoot (when equipped with ranged weapons): Unless a rule specifically states otherwise, units that have shot are no longer eligible to shoot until the start of the next phase." So a guided unit cannot be an observer cuz its not elegible to shoot and an observer cannot be a guided unit because its already an observer. So no daisy chain possible.
I would say that a unit that has already shot, is no longer eligible to shoot in that shooting phase. The eligibility rule is whether or not they are allowed to make a shot in the shooting phase(if they advanced or if they fell back). Pathfinders specifically have their special rule to allow a larger part of your army to be guided. That would be pointless if you could just use a domino effect. Similarly, the Stratagem "Coordinate to engage" is yet another way to reach a similar effect, but at a cost. It would potentially only be the "starting" Observer(the one who has not shot yet) that would benefit from it if a domino effect was allowed. Domino will just force the players to keep track of who did what to whom, to a much larger degree, compared to simply saying "this unit spots for that unit over there" and have both units be locked off for the rest of the phase. The fluff text also explains that the units are working in pairs, and not in a chain-effect, so I think it is clear what is intended here, and you would really have to intentionally bend the words to allow domino-effect.
Alright, I capitulate. I had not agreed with chain-spotting from day one. After you showed the rules, I even cross-referenced several dictionary definitions of "eligible," and learned that it means "qualified" and not "selectable," confirming that your interpretation most-closely follows the rules to the letter. Thanks for opening my eyes, I can "domino" with a clear conscience now. FtGG, my friend!
The crux of the entire daisy-chaining FtGG argument hinges on the interpretation that "making a shooting attack still leave the unit eligible to shoot" which I find asanine. A single line in the Core Rules saying that a unit that has already shoot/fight is no longer eligible to shoot/fight for the rest of the phase is all that's needed to lay this dilemma to rest. Preferably six feet under.
I did not initially read it this way, but for the time being I will 100% be trying to play it this way. As you said, saying quiet part out loud, rules as written it's allowed, and the faction is sorely hurting as it it is. We lost range, armour penetration, shots, didn't get keywords to the same extent other factions did
Why do I think it would be simpler if he had made the rule "2 units target the same enemy, the first units shots get +1 to their BS, the second unit resolves attacks as normal. " We wouldn't have to worry about chaining and my dumpster fire of a brain wouldn't have to remember which units shots and which haven't shot but have observed.
Now, maybe I'm missing something, but... How dumb is it that Ethereals don't have FtGG, but they still get the option of bringing along a Marker Drone? On one hand, wasn't it the Ethereals the ones who came up the the concept of "The Greater Good" in the first place? Why is it that the leadership caste can't interact with their own army's rule? (Imagine if Magnus didn't count as a Psyker for the Cabal Ritual rule, or Guilliman couldn't use Oath of Moment?) On the other hand, while Ethereals could possibly get access to the army rule by being attached to Breachers or Strikers... Those units already come with the Markerlight keyword by default, so what's the point of giving a Marker Drone when it literally can't do anything?
The "when declaring your targets if another tau empire unit can see the target you get +1 BS for that attack" fix would neatly enable battlesuits to target different targets with all their weapons. Pathfinders would need a new interaction too, maybe they give +2 BS when they see units. Imagine hitting on 2+ as the shooting faction? Wild.
They removed Market lights because player fear tokens. Yet they turned drones into tokens. Let tau hit on 3+ and give them back Overwatch as a Chargue reaction
I feel like in it's current state, Tau and FTGG are incomplete. My fix would be to improve the BS for most Tau units across the board by 1 and make FTGG defensive. Akin to the old rules of allowing you to overwatch for squads that get charged/fired upon. They could even do the whole paired squad system with this version of FTGG where you 'link' two units defensively and any shots/charge attempts at one allow you to overwatch for free/ignore the strategem limit; from the other. Keep the standard hitting 6+s for it to balance out the sheer volume of return fire; and keep Strike teams with the 4+ overwatch on objectives and watch them become a staple of defensive fire-lines. You improve the Tau's offensive capability while giving them a tool to work cohesively to protect one another. Thematic & practical.
Rules commentary now states "Eligible to Shoot (when equipped with ranged weapons): Unless a rule specifically states otherwise, units that have shot are no longer eligible to shoot until the start of the next phase." Which means a guided unit can't be an observer for another unit, because it has shot, and the Tau Greater Good rule states "Each time you select this unit to shoot, if it is not an Observer unit, it can use this ability. If it does, select one other friendly unit with this ability that is also eligible to shoot (excluding Fortification, Battleshocked and Observer units). Until the end of the phase, this unit is considered a Guided unit, and that friendly unit is considered an Observer unit" So a unit that has shot, is not eligible to shoot, thus cannot guide after it has shot. So it is basically pairs of unit, one gets the buffs, one doesn't. The buffed one then can't buff another unit.
Dominos kinda let the whole patient hunter thing happen at the table too. If you are really cunning with your placement you can ger an army wide chain going where everyone except the starting observer gets a benefit, this makes the army a BS 3+ army but with the flavor of earning it. Really cool stuff.
If the Observer unit is still capable of shooting later in the shooting phase, the domino effect you're explaining would still be viable, the obsever is not taking that much 'time' to relay the enemy position. A Guided Unit switching to Observer would still be paired with the new Guided unit receiving information about the Target. That all said I'm pretty sure FAQ is on the way and the rules concept will be better layed out to stop a domino effect throughout Tau shooting phases
You also need to take in account how For the Great Good impact the army build. To make use of For the Great Good you are better off using units with markerlights. That includes taking units that have little to no combat value. I seen comments calling it a tax.
Considering they changed the rule in favor of the domino effect I'd say we're a ways out from it. Still kind of baffling that's inspite of the guy who wrote the damn rule saying it's not supposed to work like that they decided to make it work like that. But hey, anything we can get I'll take.
For the Greater Good is a terrible designed army power. If they made a few selected units get 3+ BS, GW removed for the Greater Good then you would see more happy Tau players than mad.
I want to play this game, haven't bought anything yet, and wanted to play Taus. All I know about Warhammer thus far is they gave Taus one of the most complicated rules in the entire game.
Really dumb question but if I kill the spotted target do I still get the ballistic debuff if I choose a new target? or does the guided effect simply dissipates once the spotted target is gone?
The video is nicely done and very well explained. I like pictures! I learn a lot better with a diagram. I truly appreciate that. I speak for everyone when I see keep doing that. I joined the discord and I also subscribed.
Shouldn't there be a big notification on this video somewhere, even just in the description, that there has been a clarification that a unit has shot is no longer eligible to shoot?
The problem hinges on eligible to shoot and shooting. If a unit loses eligibility to shoot, then shoot twice abilities simply don't work. If a unit doesn't lose eligibility to shoot when they shoot, then you can shoot and still score secondaries. FtGG just seems swept up in this. However they clarify it, if it hinges on eligible to shoot, they will also affect the above things as well.
I think its an SAT word thing... Eligibility, even according to any dictionary you pick up, is determined by qualifications, and the qualifications for being 'eligible to shoot' are clearly defined in the rule book. If they wanted to rule out domino effect, when they wrote the rule the first time, they would have just made it hinge on when a unit shoots or has shot. They defined the term 'eligible to shoot' for you and then based a rule on it. An FAQ could change everything, but as it stands, the rules say "domino effect is legal." It does require an advanced level of reading comprehension though. Warhammer is educational after all!
A unit can shoot twice, if it has a special rule that specifically says so and overrides the standard rule of "eligible to shoot". The "eligible to shoot" is whether or not a unit is allowed to shoot at an enemy in the shooting phase. It cant if it has advanced or fell back(unless it has a special rule). So you select an eligible unit, choose a target to shoot, and that is it. Once it has shot, it is no longer an eligible unit to shoot, unless a special rule says so(objectives, second shots etc.). FtGG does not say that a unit that has already shot is still eligible to shoot.
@fendelphi except shooting twice requires a unit to be "eligible to shoot" when it would shoot again. It doesn't override or modify the term "eligible to shoot". So if shooting removes eligibility to shoot, then units can never shoot twice per RAW.
what happens to the first line of the paragraph that says "each time you select a unit to shoot, if it is not an observer unit, it can use this ability." i think that would break the daisy chain, right?
I'm still eligibile to shoot. 'But you just fired.' No! This says I'm still eligible to shoot! 'But you cant shoot again.' Nope rules state I'm eligible to shoot so I'm going to fire again!
Exactly. There are special rules that allows units to do other things in certain situations(extra shots, objectives etc.), but nothing in the FtGG rule says that a unit that has already shot is still eligible to shoot for the purpose of being an Observer. If you have shot, you cant use the ability "FtGG". Probably why Ethereals do not have the ability in the first place, now that I think about it.
@@jmlitwiller It doesn’t In those words But you can only shoot once per turn So once you have fired you can’t fire again so therefore you are ineligible to shoot again
That's not what RAW says: if a unit has not fallen back or advanced, it is eligible to shoot. Full stop. A unit doesn't even need a ranged attack to be eligible to shoot. If a model can be eligible to shoot without having the ability to, then a model which has already shot can still be eligible despite not having the ability to shoot again.
@@DirtPoorWargamer If a unit has shot, it cant shoot again. It is not eligible for further activation, unless a special rule allows it. Agreed? Advance and Fell Back are further, situational restrictions to what is "eligible", and have their own special rules that can bypass them. Nothing about FtGG says that a unit that has shot can be activated a second time in the same phase.
My question is can a guided unit take it's turn (regular attack) to attack? I'm not asking if it can be an observer, I'm asking does the guided unit take it's normal attack turn after it was a guided unit for and observed unit?
How can a unit that is eligible to shoot have already shot? By the very definition of the shooting phase, once the unit has shot, it is no longer eligible to shoot.
@InvasiveWargaming I've reread a million times 😂 and yes I agree with you now, apologies. All the 'this' and 'that' clauses makes it horrible to read. I'd delete my message but might be good for people to read and see we are in agreement. What it does mean is you can't multiple guide a unit! Key for a split fire situation so yer best not to guide them at all. Poor Tau, the only faction with an army rule that has an impactful negative
I've been wondering about this. It never says they can't be lol Honestly I think the rule is dumb and over complicated. You should just get a bonus if you don't multi-target
@@Froggsroxx There is a theory going around that the person who wrote the Tau Index was somebody who kept losing to Tau a few editions back when they were OP, and that fella still holds a grudge. That said, I would hope that this is not the case. Better to assume incompetence rather than malice and all that.
@@randomusernameCallin OoM only targets a single enemy though(usually). FtGG can benefit a large part of your army, against various targets. Make it too good, and you will wipe out half the enemy army in 1 turn without issue. I will say that the -1 to BS for split firing is weird though. Would make more sense if it was simply a -1 to hit modifier. That way, players could make a choice in terms of wargear(Weapon Support Systems) if they wanted to lean into split fire rather than avoiding it almost completely.
Question: if a unit does NOT have the FTGG keyword. Can they be observers? For example can Kroot Hounds "observe"? Or Ethereal with or without Marker Drone?
@InvasiveWargaming thanks. I gave up on my imperial knights since they got nerfed into extinction. Going back to the army I started with and dusting off the litteral cobwebs.
Wait, but don't secondary missions like Deploy Teleport Homer have the same wording? I think it would be ridiculous to shoot with a unit and then use it as an eligible unit for a secondary objective.
i have found path finders to be useful if you need to split fire. i am not sure if you can do it, but i've been having my pathfinder observe two enemies or the same guided unit, say a crisis suit. i like the utility.
Explicitly forbidding one way and not mentioning the other feels too deliberate to be unintentional. EDIT: The only way a person can argue that RAW isn't RAI in this case, is to assert that the person who wrote FTGG didn't know that a unit is still eligible after it shoots. Probably not the best hill to die on, even if it turned out to be true.
Well you seem to have forgotten how for the greater good works. The 40k rules in the official app explicitly tells the exeptions: Fortifications, Battleshocked and *Observer* units. Therefore a guided unit cannot become an observer unit, since you had used their for the greater good ability already. More precise: it cannot get the benefit of for the greater good, if its an observer. That means, it cannot become an observer, because it already had the benefit.
@@InvasiveWargaming Until you realize that a battleround is an abstract time, where evrything happens simultanious. Therefore a guided unit cannot become an observer, because it already has the benefit of being guided. A benefit observer units are not eligble to become. But if you still believe your statement holds true: why do pathfinder have the ability to double observe, if you just can domino through your battleline? Answer: because you cant use the domino to abuse for the greater good. To make it simple: Observer units cannot benefit from this. If it benefits, it cannot observe.
The observer unit doesn't necessarily need to have the ability to shoot. Or am I being dumb as I've read the ruling time ams time again and I still can't find the wording as to where it says an observer unit must be eligible to shoot? But I do agree on the fact that guided units can be observers I'm defo gonna use this strat in my next practice game and upcoming tourney
Ethereals do not have the ability to shoot. And they do not have the "For the Greater Good" ability. So being able to shoot is probably an important part of the rule.
If your willing to spend a CP you can get around the split firing nerf by using the thing you want to split fire to guide another unit into your target then use coordinate to engage giving the guided unit you want to split fire all the buffs but no downside.
Almost all the benefits. The observer unit has to have the Markerlight itself and does not gain the benefit from Sustained Hits2 from Kauyon(just SH1).
“Until the end of the phase this unit is considered a guided unit”. Until the END of the phase. Why do people think they can change it halfway through shooting phase into an observer unit. You’re encouraging cheap players to exploit poorly written rules to get an advantage.
I play it as RAW, which I believe to be RAI, and refuse to play otherwise. I get the point behind paired units, but it just makes sense to me that a unit can shoot with the assistance of another unit, and then assist another to then shoot as well, and GW has refused to state otherwise in their commentary nor in their FAQ. I'll stop playing it that way if GW rewrites it, but with T'au having such a low win rate right now as it is, I don't think it's that big a deal.
@@diongenaille1387 Get mad Space Moron player. We have such a trash winrate it doesn't even improve our chances all that much anyway. The RAW are the RAI, and anyone like you who whines about it will realize it once the dataslate changes come out. Once you realize we've been right all along, you can come apologize to me here.
Seriously dude. You need to either amend this video or take it down entirely. Everything you say from 9:55 onwards is entirely wrong and misleading to players starting to play T'au. Your video shows up as one of the top results when searching google for "Warhammer For the Greater Good". I had it cited when discussing the rule and the supposed possibility of dominoing (as you call it) the rule. This is not possible because GW clarified that units that have shot are not eligible to shoot.
The video is 7 months old. It was accurate at the time of posting. You're correct that it is no longer accurate, but neither are most of the videos I've made over the past 10 years.
I think from the word “pairs” it is pretty clear that daisy chains are not intended. The people who think observers can guide should start their own salt mine with the amount of salt they’re digging up.
They had chances to faq it.. Tau should probably have bs3 and FTGG replaced with something that shows overall unity towards the entirety of Tau'va, all helping each other, not in pairs.
Here's a simple fix, have the shootiest army in the game hit on threes like over half the factions in the game and throw the stupid rule out.
By Jove, what a novel idea
FTGG should rather give access to re rolls, modifiers or other keywords. The idea of pairs is actually cool, but should not limit our bs that way. Maybe something like the markerlight table to simulate something like spotting triangulation? One observer gives access to +1AP and two oberserver to +1AP and lethal hits. Therefore those observers can’t become a guided unit at any point. Bs 3 is then fixed part of the weapon data sheets and therefore explainable through their advanced technology since if I remember correctly Tau are myopic.
I've suggested this on reddit and elsewhere and promptly get talked down like a child.
@@mbrown7361 had the same experience in person.
@@mbrown7361 They attack you not you ideal which is a logical fallacy.
Personally, I like FtGG as a rule, but it would have been nice if GW didn't then punish the faction for having said rule by forcing the "Shooting Army" to have an average BS of 4+.
(Necrons have an army-wide heal/res, but I haven't heard much in the way of them losing toughness/wounds)
Also, I think the -1BS on split fire is really unnecessary. I feel that just not getting the +1BS is enough of a reason to not want to split fire, so the added debuff just feels needlessly punishing.
Not sure how old this is but (from the 40k app):
"Eligible to Shoot (when equipped with ranged weapons):
Unless a rule specifically states otherwise, units that have shot are no longer eligible to shoot until the start of the next phase."
So a guided unit cannot be an observer cuz its not elegible to shoot and an observer cannot be a guided unit because its already an observer. So no daisy chain possible.
I would say that a unit that has already shot, is no longer eligible to shoot in that shooting phase. The eligibility rule is whether or not they are allowed to make a shot in the shooting phase(if they advanced or if they fell back).
Pathfinders specifically have their special rule to allow a larger part of your army to be guided. That would be pointless if you could just use a domino effect.
Similarly, the Stratagem "Coordinate to engage" is yet another way to reach a similar effect, but at a cost. It would potentially only be the "starting" Observer(the one who has not shot yet) that would benefit from it if a domino effect was allowed.
Domino will just force the players to keep track of who did what to whom, to a much larger degree, compared to simply saying "this unit spots for that unit over there" and have both units be locked off for the rest of the phase. The fluff text also explains that the units are working in pairs, and not in a chain-effect, so I think it is clear what is intended here, and you would really have to intentionally bend the words to allow domino-effect.
Alright, I capitulate. I had not agreed with chain-spotting from day one. After you showed the rules, I even cross-referenced several dictionary definitions of "eligible," and learned that it means "qualified" and not "selectable," confirming that your interpretation most-closely follows the rules to the letter.
Thanks for opening my eyes, I can "domino" with a clear conscience now. FtGG, my friend!
I was pretty hard in the no domino camp at first too. I don’t think that’s how it’s meant to be played, but I do admit it’s RAW.
The crux of the entire daisy-chaining FtGG argument hinges on the interpretation that "making a shooting attack still leave the unit eligible to shoot" which I find asanine. A single line in the Core Rules saying that a unit that has already shoot/fight is no longer eligible to shoot/fight for the rest of the phase is all that's needed to lay this dilemma to rest. Preferably six feet under.
I did not initially read it this way, but for the time being I will 100% be trying to play it this way. As you said, saying quiet part out loud, rules as written it's allowed, and the faction is sorely hurting as it it is. We lost range, armour penetration, shots, didn't get keywords to the same extent other factions did
Why do I think it would be simpler if he had made the rule "2 units target the same enemy, the first units shots get +1 to their BS, the second unit resolves attacks as normal. "
We wouldn't have to worry about chaining and my dumpster fire of a brain wouldn't have to remember which units shots and which haven't shot but have observed.
That would force the second unit to shoot the same enemy unit. There are a lot of situations where that would not be preferable.
@@fendelphi yeah, it would not be ideal. But I was mostly going for simplified rules without the ambiguity that GW seems to love.
Tokens are your friend
Now, maybe I'm missing something, but... How dumb is it that Ethereals don't have FtGG, but they still get the option of bringing along a Marker Drone?
On one hand, wasn't it the Ethereals the ones who came up the the concept of "The Greater Good" in the first place? Why is it that the leadership caste can't interact with their own army's rule? (Imagine if Magnus didn't count as a Psyker for the Cabal Ritual rule, or Guilliman couldn't use Oath of Moment?)
On the other hand, while Ethereals could possibly get access to the army rule by being attached to Breachers or Strikers... Those units already come with the Markerlight keyword by default, so what's the point of giving a Marker Drone when it literally can't do anything?
I'm surprised you didn't address the interactions with being in engagement range of vehicles and units having pistols.
The "when declaring your targets if another tau empire unit can see the target you get +1 BS for that attack" fix would neatly enable battlesuits to target different targets with all their weapons. Pathfinders would need a new interaction too, maybe they give +2 BS when they see units. Imagine hitting on 2+ as the shooting faction? Wild.
They removed Market lights because player fear tokens. Yet they turned drones into tokens.
Let tau hit on 3+ and give them back Overwatch as a Chargue reaction
I feel like in it's current state, Tau and FTGG are incomplete. My fix would be to improve the BS for most Tau units across the board by 1 and make FTGG defensive. Akin to the old rules of allowing you to overwatch for squads that get charged/fired upon.
They could even do the whole paired squad system with this version of FTGG where you 'link' two units defensively and any shots/charge attempts at one allow you to overwatch for free/ignore the strategem limit; from the other. Keep the standard hitting 6+s for it to balance out the sheer volume of return fire; and keep Strike teams with the 4+ overwatch on objectives and watch them become a staple of defensive fire-lines. You improve the Tau's offensive capability while giving them a tool to work cohesively to protect one another. Thematic & practical.
Rules commentary now states "Eligible to Shoot (when equipped with ranged weapons): Unless a
rule specifically states otherwise, units that have shot are no longer
eligible to shoot until the start of the next phase." Which means a guided unit can't be an observer for another unit, because it has shot, and the Tau Greater Good rule states "Each time you select this unit to shoot, if it is not an
Observer unit, it can use this ability. If it does, select
one other friendly unit with this ability that is also
eligible to shoot (excluding Fortification, Battleshocked and Observer units). Until the end of
the phase, this unit is considered a Guided
unit, and that friendly unit is considered an
Observer unit"
So a unit that has shot, is not eligible to shoot, thus cannot guide after it has shot. So it is basically pairs of unit, one gets the buffs, one doesn't. The buffed one then can't buff another unit.
Dominos kinda let the whole patient hunter thing happen at the table too. If you are really cunning with your placement you can ger an army wide chain going where everyone except the starting observer gets a benefit, this makes the army a BS 3+ army but with the flavor of earning it.
Really cool stuff.
If the Observer unit is still capable of shooting later in the shooting phase, the domino effect you're explaining would still be viable, the obsever is not taking that much 'time' to relay the enemy position.
A Guided Unit switching to Observer would still be paired with the new Guided unit receiving information about the Target.
That all said I'm pretty sure FAQ is on the way and the rules concept will be better layed out to stop a domino effect throughout Tau shooting phases
You also need to take in account how For the Great Good impact the army build. To make use of For the Great Good you are better off using units with markerlights. That includes taking units that have little to no combat value. I seen comments calling it a tax.
Considering they changed the rule in favor of the domino effect I'd say we're a ways out from it. Still kind of baffling that's inspite of the guy who wrote the damn rule saying it's not supposed to work like that they decided to make it work like that. But hey, anything we can get I'll take.
For the Greater Good is a terrible designed army power. If they made a few selected units get 3+ BS, GW removed for the Greater Good then you would see more happy Tau players than mad.
I want to play this game, haven't bought anything yet, and wanted to play Taus. All I know about Warhammer thus far is they gave Taus one of the most complicated rules in the entire game.
Oh boy, the comments may get kinda spicy on this one
It would be nice to be able to accumulate "observations hits" from different spotters. Like from Pathfinders, Tetras and Stealth at the same target .
Really dumb question but if I kill the spotted target do I still get the ballistic debuff if I choose a new target? or does the guided effect simply dissipates once the spotted target is gone?
The video is nicely done and very well explained. I like pictures! I learn a lot better with a diagram. I truly appreciate that. I speak for everyone when I see keep doing that.
I joined the discord and I also subscribed.
Thanks friend
Shouldn't there be a big notification on this video somewhere, even just in the description, that there has been a clarification that a unit has shot is no longer eligible to shoot?
does it stack? if i have two units that spotted a enemy ...does that drop the bs skill of a bs4 down to a bs2??
The problem hinges on eligible to shoot and shooting. If a unit loses eligibility to shoot, then shoot twice abilities simply don't work. If a unit doesn't lose eligibility to shoot when they shoot, then you can shoot and still score secondaries.
FtGG just seems swept up in this. However they clarify it, if it hinges on eligible to shoot, they will also affect the above things as well.
Right, which is why I think the simple fix (if they were to do one) would be just to specify that guided units cannot observe.
Agreed, although they have once already in the Designer Commentary clarified Eligible to Shoot as not in combat, not fall back or advance moved.
I think its an SAT word thing... Eligibility, even according to any dictionary you pick up, is determined by qualifications, and the qualifications for being 'eligible to shoot' are clearly defined in the rule book. If they wanted to rule out domino effect, when they wrote the rule the first time, they would have just made it hinge on when a unit shoots or has shot. They defined the term 'eligible to shoot' for you and then based a rule on it.
An FAQ could change everything, but as it stands, the rules say "domino effect is legal." It does require an advanced level of reading comprehension though. Warhammer is educational after all!
A unit can shoot twice, if it has a special rule that specifically says so and overrides the standard rule of "eligible to shoot".
The "eligible to shoot" is whether or not a unit is allowed to shoot at an enemy in the shooting phase. It cant if it has advanced or fell back(unless it has a special rule). So you select an eligible unit, choose a target to shoot, and that is it. Once it has shot, it is no longer an eligible unit to shoot, unless a special rule says so(objectives, second shots etc.).
FtGG does not say that a unit that has already shot is still eligible to shoot.
@fendelphi except shooting twice requires a unit to be "eligible to shoot" when it would shoot again. It doesn't override or modify the term "eligible to shoot". So if shooting removes eligibility to shoot, then units can never shoot twice per RAW.
what happens to the first line of the paragraph that says "each time you select a unit to shoot, if it is not an observer unit, it can use this ability." i think that would break the daisy chain, right?
It means observers can’t be guided, but does prevent guided units from being observers
I'm still eligibile to shoot.
'But you just fired.'
No! This says I'm still eligible to shoot!
'But you cant shoot again.'
Nope rules state I'm eligible to shoot so I'm going to fire again!
Don’t hang me for this
But
If a unit has shot then it is no longer eligible to shoot that round
Exactly. There are special rules that allows units to do other things in certain situations(extra shots, objectives etc.), but nothing in the FtGG rule says that a unit that has already shot is still eligible to shoot for the purpose of being an Observer.
If you have shot, you cant use the ability "FtGG". Probably why Ethereals do not have the ability in the first place, now that I think about it.
Where does it say that?
@@jmlitwiller
It doesn’t In those words
But you can only shoot once per turn
So once you have fired you can’t fire again so therefore you are ineligible to shoot again
That's not what RAW says: if a unit has not fallen back or advanced, it is eligible to shoot. Full stop. A unit doesn't even need a ranged attack to be eligible to shoot. If a model can be eligible to shoot without having the ability to, then a model which has already shot can still be eligible despite not having the ability to shoot again.
@@DirtPoorWargamer If a unit has shot, it cant shoot again. It is not eligible for further activation, unless a special rule allows it. Agreed?
Advance and Fell Back are further, situational restrictions to what is "eligible", and have their own special rules that can bypass them.
Nothing about FtGG says that a unit that has shot can be activated a second time in the same phase.
My question is can a guided unit take it's turn (regular attack) to attack? I'm not asking if it can be an observer, I'm asking does the guided unit take it's normal attack turn after it was a guided unit for and observed unit?
NOOOOO.
You were the chosen one. You were supposed to disprove "daisy chaining", not endorse it!
I’m not endorsing it, but I also don’t see a way to disprove it :/
@@InvasiveWargaming I've gone for a very litteral interpretation of "work in pairs". Surely any other interpretation is just "power gaming"
Honestly FTGG being a domino-like effect really reinforces the solidarity the Tau are told to have. They're all connected in one way or another.
How can a unit that is eligible to shoot have already shot? By the very definition of the shooting phase, once the unit has shot, it is no longer eligible to shoot.
The rule says pick a unit to shoot with and then pick a unit to guide, so you pick an observer first not guided unit
I can see why you would think that, but that is not accurate. It says pick a unit, pick a friendly unit; unit is guided, friendly unit is observer.
@InvasiveWargaming I've reread a million times 😂 and yes I agree with you now, apologies. All the 'this' and 'that' clauses makes it horrible to read. I'd delete my message but might be good for people to read and see we are in agreement.
What it does mean is you can't multiple guide a unit! Key for a split fire situation so yer best not to guide them at all.
Poor Tau, the only faction with an army rule that has an impactful negative
I've been wondering about this. It never says they can't be lol
Honestly I think the rule is dumb and over complicated. You should just get a bonus if you don't multi-target
Some have called For the Greater Good a tax on the Tau players.
@@randomusernameCallin yeah I don't understand the penalty to split firing for guided units. Like, why?
@@Froggsroxx There is a theory going around that the person who wrote the Tau Index was somebody who kept losing to Tau a few editions back when they were OP, and that fella still holds a grudge.
That said, I would hope that this is not the case. Better to assume incompetence rather than malice and all that.
@@Froggsroxx That not even the worse part of it. Compare it to Oath of Moment and you can see a thematic rule that is no where as punishing.
@@randomusernameCallin OoM only targets a single enemy though(usually). FtGG can benefit a large part of your army, against various targets. Make it too good, and you will wipe out half the enemy army in 1 turn without issue.
I will say that the -1 to BS for split firing is weird though. Would make more sense if it was simply a -1 to hit modifier. That way, players could make a choice in terms of wargear(Weapon Support Systems) if they wanted to lean into split fire rather than avoiding it almost completely.
Question: if a unit does NOT have the FTGG keyword. Can they be observers? For example can Kroot Hounds "observe"? Or Ethereal with or without Marker Drone?
No
@@InvasiveWargaming
Thought so...thank you!!!
With the new balance update they have made it so FTGG no longer can chain. Might be something to update.
Can a unit of tetas split being observers? Ie 2 tetras , 1 observes one unit the other observes another?
No
@InvasiveWargaming thanks.
I gave up on my imperial knights since they got nerfed into extinction.
Going back to the army I started with and dusting off the litteral cobwebs.
Wait, but don't secondary missions like Deploy Teleport Homer have the same wording? I think it would be ridiculous to shoot with a unit and then use it as an eligible unit for a secondary objective.
i have found path finders to be useful if you need to split fire. i am not sure if you can do it, but i've been having my pathfinder observe two enemies or the same guided unit, say a crisis suit. i like the utility.
Unfortunately this doesn’t work because of the sequencing of selecting units and targets
@@InvasiveWargaminglol, good thing my friend playing necrons didn't know that!
Explicitly forbidding one way and not mentioning the other feels too deliberate to be unintentional.
EDIT: The only way a person can argue that RAW isn't RAI in this case, is to assert that the person who wrote FTGG didn't know that a unit is still eligible after it shoots. Probably not the best hill to die on, even if it turned out to be true.
Good explanation of a series of overly complex rules that only kind of illustrate how dumb not just giving Tau BS 3+ in the first place is.
Well you seem to have forgotten how for the greater good works.
The 40k rules in the official app explicitly tells the exeptions: Fortifications, Battleshocked and *Observer* units.
Therefore a guided unit cannot become an observer unit, since you had used their for the greater good ability already.
More precise: it cannot get the benefit of for the greater good, if its an observer.
That means, it cannot become an observer, because it already had the benefit.
Observers are excluded from being guided. The reverse is not true: guided are not excluded from becoming observers
@@InvasiveWargaming
Until you realize that a battleround is an abstract time, where evrything happens simultanious.
Therefore a guided unit cannot become an observer, because it already has the benefit of being guided.
A benefit observer units are not eligble to become.
But if you still believe your statement holds true: why do pathfinder have the ability to double observe, if you just can domino through your battleline?
Answer: because you cant use the domino to abuse for the greater good.
To make it simple:
Observer units cannot benefit from this.
If it benefits, it cannot observe.
The observer unit doesn't necessarily need to have the ability to shoot. Or am I being dumb as I've read the ruling time ams time again and I still can't find the wording as to where it says an observer unit must be eligible to shoot? But I do agree on the fact that guided units can be observers I'm defo gonna use this strat in my next practice game and upcoming tourney
Correct, they just need to be eligible to shoot
@@InvasiveWargaming thank you for clarification 🙏
Ethereals do not have the ability to shoot. And they do not have the "For the Greater Good" ability. So being able to shoot is probably an important part of the rule.
Declare all observers for every unit before shooting at all and everyone within reason can be guided. EZ
If your willing to spend a CP you can get around the split firing nerf by using the thing you want to split fire to guide another unit into your target then use coordinate to engage giving the guided unit you want to split fire all the buffs but no downside.
Almost all the benefits. The observer unit has to have the Markerlight itself and does not gain the benefit from Sustained Hits2 from Kauyon(just SH1).
Why couldn't a observer unit be guided by a different unit. As long as they're not targeting the same unit that they themselves observed.
The rule specifically prohibits this
Let's just go back to ninth ed.!
Question: Can Guided units be Observers?
Answer: No
That's like... your opinion, man. RAW says "yes"
Great video. Didn't see it mentioned that Firesight Team allows full rerolls to their guided unit.
Because they don't give rerolls, the firesight team gets to reroll the hit roll if the team is the guided unit
“Until the end of the phase this unit is considered a guided unit”. Until the END of the phase. Why do people think they can change it halfway through shooting phase into an observer unit. You’re encouraging cheap players to exploit poorly written rules to get an advantage.
Oh, come on.
I know Shawn, I know. This is why we can’t have nice things.
I play it as RAW, which I believe to be RAI, and refuse to play otherwise. I get the point behind paired units, but it just makes sense to me that a unit can shoot with the assistance of another unit, and then assist another to then shoot as well, and GW has refused to state otherwise in their commentary nor in their FAQ. I'll stop playing it that way if GW rewrites it, but with T'au having such a low win rate right now as it is, I don't think it's that big a deal.
Cheap player lol, exploiting poorly written rules for an edge . Your wins mean nothing
@@diongenaille1387 Get mad Space Moron player. We have such a trash winrate it doesn't even improve our chances all that much anyway. The RAW are the RAI, and anyone like you who whines about it will realize it once the dataslate changes come out. Once you realize we've been right all along, you can come apologize to me here.
Such a dumb rule. If a unit has shot then it shouldn't be eligible to shoot. It's an exploit and needs erata.
Seriously dude. You need to either amend this video or take it down entirely. Everything you say from 9:55 onwards is entirely wrong and misleading to players starting to play T'au. Your video shows up as one of the top results when searching google for "Warhammer For the Greater Good". I had it cited when discussing the rule and the supposed possibility of dominoing (as you call it) the rule. This is not possible because GW clarified that units that have shot are not eligible to shoot.
The video is 7 months old. It was accurate at the time of posting. You're correct that it is no longer accurate, but neither are most of the videos I've made over the past 10 years.
Description edited.
I think from the word “pairs” it is pretty clear that daisy chains are not intended. The people who think observers can guide should start their own salt mine with the amount of salt they’re digging up.
They had chances to faq it..
Tau should probably have bs3 and FTGG replaced with something that shows overall unity towards the entirety of Tau'va, all helping each other, not in pairs.
@@sharpshotm16 There was a lot of things that were not corrected in the FAQ for several factions.
@@fendelphi Indeed, GW should sort it all out when 8t can drastically change how an army plays
WTC FAQ allow it