What makes a man? | Modern Masculinity
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ต.ค. 2024
- As part of a series on Modern Masculinity, Guardian journalist Iman Amrani is exploring what masculinity means to a range of men from diverse backgrounds. In this third episode, Iman speaks with Channel 4 News presenter Jon Snow, grime artist D Double E, Status Quo's Francis Rossi, musician MNEK, Love Island's Jack Fowler and playwright Vinay Patel about the role models and influences that have made them the men they are.
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( People from different places may not be able to understand British accent.)
Thank you!
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You didn't pick a wide selection of men as most are artists. Why no engineers, policemen, office workers, construction workers, though you did get a good age range.
That's exactly what I first noticed. Seems that they want to push a certain "agenda".
She did mention that these were the people that responded.
@@jaguarx57 She couldn't walk 100 ft. to the building maintenance office and interview a janitor or something? Yeah right.
Totally understand your point, Paul. Would just say to take the series as a whole. Yes, this episode has a few famous faces but there are a lot of different voices we've already spoken to and even more to come.
@@jaimesaenz221 Perhaps you should view the other Episodes William. She actually held an entire interview with a guy she met at a Jordan Peterson conference (Masuclinity is essential to society - full interview). Also, for the love of god, do just a tiny bit of research instead of vomiting your pointless reaction out in the comment section, thanks.
Aggression is a natural instinct, but it needs to be controlled.
Uncontrolled aggression is dangerous, controlled aggression is necessary.
Absolutely. Controlled aggression can be a very useful in life
what do you mean by controlled aggression?
@@mateuszpapla mandated aggression, i.e perform the states monopoly on violence need to be enforced my aggressive men and women who can switch and switch off.
@@mateuszpapla Like when the state injects pregnant women with plutonium, quite aware of the danger just not the specific observations of results. It was controlled bu all the paper work that had to be signed. So justified and reasonable for it to happen, obviously.
Controlled agression builds civilizations!
I disagree that aggression is purely taught. It is natural thing just as much as it is a natural thing for some to be more sensitive. Some people just get angry faster and on average those people tend to be men. I am not saying that circumstances play no role but to say it is only because of circumstances would be oversimplifying it.
I think it stems from how men and women externalise their emotions. I'm gonna say now that this will be a big generalisation. But, on average I feel that women may typically be more sensitive when their emotions are high and that may manifest itself as crying or feeling sad/helpless. Men on the other hand typically feel anger when their emotions are high which manifests itself as aggressive behaviour or feeling the need for action. That is not to say that men aren't sensitive and women don't get angry but it all stems from the same place in trying to find a release valve for our emotions.
There is a societal aspect to it in that men *typically* behave this way and women *typically* behave that way and so it is then seen as the way *all* men do this and *all* women do that. This is then of course a generalisation and can make men and women that don't behave in those gender-normative fashions feel isolated and different leading to gender dysphoria or potential overcompensation when attempting to fit in with the societal view of how they should act.
Aggression is critical to survival, so it's both feminine and masculine. Girls I knew growing up, could be very cruel to one another, generally much more so than boys. The boys would argue or fight it out, then usually everything would be fine between the boys in the conflict. Girls would fight, but it never resolved things and could be very cruel to each other.@@tomcolton5662
@@southernnordic7027 very true. Women can be just as vicious and aggressive towards one another- anyone who spent enough time around women would know this. They just don't express it physically.
Great comment, I have seen some women express it physically. But you're right, that women generally take their aggression out on each other either mentally or emotionally, and honestly I think this can be more destructive than the physical aggression if carried out long enough.@@atejani6994
@@Aguycalledmax A societal expectation =/= it is taught by society.
Have you considered the fact that human nature pre-existed society ergo nature could've informed society. Division of Labour is another example of this. People like you think it was oppression, when in reality it was just the best way to organise humans to maximise survival.
PS The notion that women have been oppressed since time immemorial is laughable. I don't see *not being forced* to go to some foreign land & get hacked apart as oppressive.
PS Inb4 the usual "It was men that started all the wars". Just Google "Female queen's started more wars in Europe than male Kings" & actually learn something instead of allowing yourself to be spoon-fed dogma.
Ok, so I never understood why some people behave like 'natural' means 'good', so they can never use the word "natural" to describe nasty parts of our characters, like agression. Agression is natural, which doesn't mean it's cool or advisable to be agressive. You just need to find a way to vent it off without harm and then come back to being civil and polite. Best case scenario, you find a way to do something creative with your negative emotions.
@Ligeia D.Aurevilly Yeah, it's a huge task. That's why I think for most of us the best bet is to channel it somewhere where it doesn't do harm and be done with it. Integrating it into your character properly, do get the drive you speak off, but without causing harm... That's another level of maturity. Havn't figured it out for myself yet.
Depending on the circumstance aggression is advisable.
Appreciate this
this is where the scripture has put "sin" into perspective for me
Interesting that you would pick men who grew up with a father. My parents divorced when I was three and I can count the number of times I was in my father's presence on two hands. He died with me only knowing him from third hand accounts. I think it would be interesting to see in a future episode how men who did not have a masculine influence in their lives growing up now view their own masculinity.
I agree
Yep, the single biggest issue surrounding men is growing up without a father
From experience. They are lost in the sea of chaos. Many resent their mothers and in turn perpetuate the pattern by leaving their kids alone too.
I can count it with one hand. Needless to say I had aggression problems growing up and throughout most of my youth.
One guy did have divorced parents, but he said his dad lived around the corner, so I see what you're saying
"How do you think your relationship with your dad has affected the man you are today?"
Go ask this to the great majority of men who grew up with divorced single mothers.
Feminism wins again.
My mum wasn't a single parent but I saw her as much more of a role model than my old man. In her I saw/see strength, vulnerability, kindness
@Ca11MeZed ...except many women did
There seems to be a theme that aggression is only associated with men. Both genders possess aggressive tendencies. While they may be expressed somewhat differently both can be equally toxic. Aggression has deep roots with our survival as a species. Therefore it can only be described as natural.
@Ca11MeZed survived many holocausts? That's quite a feat.
I enjoyed the first two episodes of the series, but this one I didn't really derive any value from.
All the guys you spoke to are artists or celebrities, not exactly a broad swath of male role models.
Fair enough but we did say this one's a bit different. There are still a lot more voices to be heard!
@@theGuardian I'm not sure if you've completed filming for the series, but if you haven't could you please have a similar session as this, but with men and boys from working class families. They're the ones that are truly struggling.
@@Inoscopedadog I second that 👆, I'd love to see this take
@@Inoscopedadog most people in this vid are from a working class background
@@Inoscopedadog I feel a lot of men are struggling, regardless of class i feel that's the point, boys and young men, in particular, have what appears to be a very narrow space to evolve in and also we can all learn from each other's stories
Jon Snow's insight on british boarding schools and the fear children lived in there. Just chilling.
And those people are the ones who raised us. Of course we're gonna be lost and have no clear positive role models. I kinda like Jesus on his all loving quest but hate the rest of the dogma. JP gets borderline misogynistic too
And yet we don't actually see that many men coming out of boarding school looking to do the same to the next generation. It seems to be mostly blokes like Jon Snow complaining about how awful it was.
I know and how he delivered it with such normality is shocking.
Jon Snow? He knows nothing.
A small sample study trying to pass itself off as intelligent. This video is an appeal to vanity, so its viewers can feel better after having watching it.
Why is the sole focus always on physical aggression in men. Women/girls can be exceedingly cruel in different ways. Why are they given a pass?
What do you mean by 'given a pass'? This is supposed to be a series that looks at masculinity, so far it has done that fairly well. Why would the interviewer be asking about how girls/women behave in this episode?
@@byrdmaniacsg2776 Isn't a discussion of masculinity gendered by default? I'm not sure that violence against women is mentioned at any point in this video, or the previous two. It almost feels like you're watching a completely different video to the one this comment section is attached to.
@@byrdmaniacsg2776 I actually saw a video/documentary the other day about a man who was on the recieving end of a very physically abusive relationship, recognition for these situations are coming into the mainstream now. Despite the crazy people you see online, I'm pretty sure most feminists want fair court rulings and domestic abuse shelters for men.
@@byrdmaniacsg2776 stop bashing the whole feminist movement. You sound silly making overarching statements like that, feminists do not deny that violence against men is a problem. Just like any other movement, it just has its focus, which is on the equality of the sexes, because if you know anything about the history of gender equality, women have almost always been the oppressed and not the oppressors. So duh feminism is going to focus on fairness and equality for women. That is basic advocacy; fighting for those who are the oppressed and/or who need their voices heard. People like you seem to hate that women are fighting for their equality...just admit that you're sexist. There are radical people in every movement but feminism is the only movement that gets bashed as a whole... I wonder why... and by the way, if you don't want a gendered video, click off of it but don't deny the fact that there is a difference in aggression between each gender. All you have to do is look up statistics, experiments, and studies that prove that the difference is there. Or you can just look at basic biology, i.e. testosterone levels and how they relate to aggression..
Because the show is about men. IT'S ABOUT MEN.
I found this episode to be quite disappointing. It really didn't offer much. Very few men can relate to any of these guys.
It seemed like this is what I thought this series might eventually become. Give men from all classes and all backgrounds the platform to speak about what it means to be a man/masculine.
Iman is a fantastic journalist and I feel that this episode really didn't make best use of her journalistic abilities. I preferred the first episode and second episode as Iman had more of an active role in interviewing and asking follow questions.
Please have an episode dedicated to working class men/boys. I feel that it is necessary in order to understand masculinity. I genuinely think it will be eye opening.
Well I personally think it was a very well made video. It was nice to see each and every one of theirs experiences in life. I mean it's absolutely fine if you found it boring and I'm sorry you couldn't relate with anyone's story ,but I related to a couple of them!
@@antonypastrikos7036 Antony, I didn't find it boring. I just felt it lacked the impact of the first and second episode. I'm glad you could relate to some of these stories. I wonder if celebrities or public figures can be really be honest about masculinity as they might be censoring themselves due to fear of a backlash if they say something that isn't the mainstream opinion.
It's worth noting that it's just one video in a series and they seem to be taking note of what the audience is saying. So I imagine they will acknowledge criticisms like yours in future episodes.
Just saying it seems a little hasty to say that this is what the series has become from one episode.
@@elliotpearson853 I thought these episodes had been pre-recorded? Perhaps I'm wrong. I just feel that going down the celebrity route after two episodes was a bit soon.
Perhaps I'm being too cynical, but I feel like it's very difficult for a celebrity to give their honest opinion. I think they're worried about what the Twitter mobs might say.
There's a reason they only brought in a bunch of white-collar champagne socialists. The Guardian doesn't like diversity in ideas, only in skin colour and sexuality.
Why is it that only the negative side of aggression is being spoken about? All major advancements in every field is the consequence of aggression being channeled into something positive. Thats why some investment strategy for example can be considered "aggressive" but not in the typical sense. No impressive feats by any one person or group or people could be achieved if there wasn't some positively harnessed aggression involved.
Edit: I think the question should be - "Do you think some men arnt taught how to control and manifest aggression in the correct way". Personally i think the key is to be controlled but never totally harmless.
The question in this video suggest aggression is always a bad thing. Male competitiveness and aggression has actually been harnessed in some extremely positive ways and lead to some major advancements.
I think it is because aggression is mostly negative from a female perspective. Female aggression tends to be negative and social. The positive aspects of physical aggression (productivity) more obvious than positive social aggression (leadership). For women aggression is associated with negative social from other women and powerlessness/sexuality when it comes to physical aggression. Cooperative social is the highlighted positive from the feminine view and as such tries to impose that mode onto the world but the negatives of cooperative social modes tend to be ignored.
@@kingfisher1638 It's because physical aggression is more obvious and has widespread effects ie football hooliganism, war.
Because these people were chosen to create a Feminist video pretending to be about Masculinity.
This video series is supposed to spark discussion, you are having a discussion 👍 And there are more videos to come so maybe they'll touch on your points, which I agree with btw.
Respect for The Guardian's engagement in the comment section.
What I liked about the previous parts, were that you talking to 'normal' guys about every day topics. Here however, we are back to what has already been done to death: talking to (semi)-celebrities. And sure, they have normal experiences as well, but you have to keep in mind that these semi-celebrities are generally people from a specific sub-group, with specific interest and qualities. It's similar to how most psychology studies, are done on psychology students. It just doesn't give an accurate, representative and holistic picture of reality.
Semi celebrities are men too. The 'normal' guy they concentrated on wasn't particularly normal. Jordan Peterson is a semi celebrity. It's not pointless these men are quite different and had different experiences.
Got a bit teary watching this. I haven't spoken to my dad for more than a decade now. I hear stories about people reconnecting with their fathers all the time but my dads mentality is such that there really isn't any chance of fixing the relationship. The hardest thing for me was just having to accept that i'll never have that relationship with him. I don't think i'll ever fully heal but I've learnt to cope. It's weird because when i was under the same roof as him i was in more danger but i didn't have anxiety, it wasn't until i left that environment that I started to get anxiety attacks. I think coming out of that situation hit me like a tonne of bricks because i had a basis for comparison, being in a safer environment, i suddenly realised how bad things really were at home.
Now I have a family of my own, a 3 year old girl and a son on the way. My relationship with my daughter is overwhelmingly great and i hope i can keep it up with my son and be the dad for him that i wish mine was for me. In this current climate of identity politics there is a great deal of animosity towards masculine men and I understand that people have been through these experiences, but the media pushing it on a national scale doesn't help. It just makes men that already feel alone feel even worse. Even my dad, as bad as he could get, had at least a few redeeming qualities. It's not like i didn't learn anything good from him and he was certainly an improvement on his dad, but Jordan Peterson is right when he says all it takes is a little bit of encouragement to get young men on the right path.
This is a great little series and i hope to see more of this from The Guardian. There are clearly issues regarding masculinity that need to be addressed and this is the right way of doing it, not the "toxic masculinity" approach.
"Hey Guardian. You did two great videos about masculinity. I was seriously shocked how fair and real they were."
"Hold my beer."
Still find this rather strange, I never thought about how I am as a man; Or what makes me as a man.
But rather how I am as a person.
They have an agenda Johny.
Me too. I always thought of the traits I'd like in a person, not so much a male or female
Here's another perspective:
I think one of the most essential masculine traits is the willingness and the mental capacity to solve your problems on your own instead of relying on others to do that for you.
And in many cases, especially as children, physical violence seems like the most effective way to do that and if they're not taught otherwise they grow up as violent, aggressive men.
I think If we successfully teach young boys to separate one thing from the other they will eventually grow up into responsible, resourceful men.
Once we're always talking about women everyday ALL DAY, It's so good to hear things about man, about what they really feel
sweetheart, have you ever heard of reddit? youtube? the whole F*****g INTERNET? males are saying what they think and feel everywhere. they don't stop. but you want more, don't you sweetheart? you are probably not paying attention. so here's my advice for you: listen to what men say and pay very close attention to it. don't dismiss it. don't pretend you didn't hear it. don't tell yourself they probably don't mean it. they do. Wish you all the best!
@@quewntenerif616 You haven't a clue what men have a problem with.. They might say it but you're not really listening. You only care about yourself.
@@bencarter1666 not true, but I definitely don't give a F about men. # Equality.
@@quewntenerif616 this is why men arent getting married lol, Men are sick of "equality" when a lot of laws are in favour of women. mgtow is growing more and more everyday and women still dont understand nor care.
@@quewntenerif616 Knew that already. Equality would be nice but you ladies hold all the legal cards so have made yourselves a liability. If you want boardroom seats I suggest you pull your finger out and do the work. The worst discrimination you would face would come from other women, don't need to tell you that
Doesn't Testosterone make you more likely to fight? I read that in my science book, so if men have more testosterone, then it's natural
Not only, it is very interesting, because mens brains also have a different response route to conflict, when angered, the first part of the brain to light up is the one that would tell them to assault the problem. While women first go for verbal attacks when angered.
Yeah by generally teaching men to hate themselves and engage in self destructive behaviors. Which seems to be happening quite a lot today.@Ligeia D.Aurevilly
@@-ec-fuzzy_rogue1411 haa my first instinct is always to flee x)
-EC- Fuzzy_Rogue it’s almost like men and women are different right 🤪
@@kierangallagher5687 i have not met a left leaning person that rejects biology yet
When I think of masculinity my first thoughts are confidence,dominance,and respect.
W opinion
why dominance specifically? just curious
I'd love to see some more men. I feel like there's nothing like this out there so far and just to hear men, mostly accomplished men in different fields, talk this openly about rather emotional and personal topics is exactly what is needed as a contrast to hypermasculine, polarized and extreme examples. Which there's plenty of.
Why do you ask if aggressiveness is natural or taught? Do you not know what testosterone is? Anyway, somehow this 3rd episode feels a little less interesting, it was kinda bland actually.
I cried, being raised by a single dad who chose not to remarry to raise me and my brother, I cry again as I remember how he was screwed by his in-laws, lonely dude he grows older and weaker day by day, just hope I can somehow grant him a peaceful life before it’s too late
Intro:
--Huh?
--Testicles...
--Having sex with other men.
--I dunno.
Sums it up about right...
We're fucked.
Aggression exists as a means to compel us to act against evil. It is entirely natural, but just like any of our other natural capacities, it can compel us incorrectly, so it needs to be controlled. Aggression is like fear. if you fear that which is not to be feared, its called a phobia, its irrational. But that doesn't mean there is no natural basis for fear.there really are things to fear in the world. The same can be said for other emotions. They have their place, but they can all be distorted as a result of some defect, disorder, or injury that we might sustain. Aggression that compels us to act against something that isn't evil is also a kind of phobia also, but that doesn't mean there is no natural basis for aggression. There are definitely evil in this world that require aggression to oppose, things that really should anger us.
For instance, you see a woman being beaten. If aggression doesn't appear at all in your reaction, there is something wrong with you. If your reaction is "meh...", there is something wrong with you. Aggression should appear, not out of control of course, but it should appear to compel you to act how you need to.
Teach men that their aggression in itself is something they have to hide, something they should be ashamed of, rather than something they have to control is detrimental to male development. I'd say the same for women too.
Yes
Aggression is definitely natural. As Thomas Hobbes put it our natural state is at war with each other
Exactly right. Aggression is necessary for survival. Peace is an unnatural state.
No it's quite fulfilling. You don't understand what we're saying here, we're not saying peace is bad, it's good. But you look all through history, it's definitely not the norm. You'll be surprised what you can learn if you only look.@Sofia X
Sofia X ?! He’s right. To deny it is just ignorance.
That aggression needs to be put into useful activities like sport and martial arts. We live in a time where warring like we used to with other nations and peoples means a nuclear holocaust, and our technological capabilities are only going to increase from here. Aggression cant be allowed to fuel our politics any longer
Juliana Silva enjoy going to war over resources with no men around. You won’t have us to a) fight and die for you, our natural position during conflict b) do the heavy lifting, both physically and logistically...which leads to c) dig your latrines, set up military bases, transport weapons and vehicles, essentially the grunt work d) command and follow orders, even when they’re pointless, suicidal, or morally wrong. Basically you’d be pretty screwed when things eventually require state sanctioned force. Or maybe you actually think only men cause wars, and no wars will happen when it’s only women. Lmao.
This series desperately requires perspectives from evolutionary psychologists. If someone tells you male aggression isn't natural then they don't know the first thing about masculinity.
They aren’t trying to gather scientific data though, they’re trying to gather subjective feelings from men, which is valuable in it’s own way.
Max X what would be the purpose of gathering subjective feelings from men, if not to analyse them and look for a common trend? I.e science.
@@adrianfitipaldes You'll note that they're making a TH-cam series (i.e. entertainment function), not writing a scientific paper.
@@benjaminmcintosh857 and so it shouldn't be taken seriously, right?
@@areezsalawu7737 Take what you want from it. There's value in conversation and discussion.
So being a man is now really about being a woman (compassionate, vulnerable, emotive etc.)
This might go some way towards explaining how our society has become so incredibly weak and effete; aggression is bad, stoicism is disliked. Hyper-emotional hysteria (usually on Twitter) is the fashion of the time.
Moreso about being human, acknowledging you exist within a society which in part requires you to have positive interactions with society
Of course being a man is about being empathetic. We are a social species, and connection to other humans through feelings is one of the most amazing parts of life. To deny men the ability to be honest about that through pressuring them to be hard and emotionless is to create generations of miserable men.
@Toxic Stoic please clue me up in that case
what about society today is weak that wasn't the case in a different time period?
A lot of people commenting about aggression, so might be useful to mention a couple of things:
1. Men and women are about equally aggressive. However, aggression manifests itself differently between the two groups. Men are significantly more likely to be violent.
2. It’s likely men are more violent DESPITE culture, not because of culture. Insofar as culture has an effect on violence, it actually seems to reduce the chance of it occuring. Psychology Professor Steve Williams recently wrote a great piece about this. Look it up.
So to clearify, when the interviewee says “society validates aggression” at about 11:46, he is actually arguing for a position that is counter to what reality looks like. In most instances society will punish manifestations of aggression very harshly. Which is beneficial for society at large. But don’t say societal norm is to encourage aggression, because that’s simply not true.
Society doesn't encourage aggression, however it does sometimes encourage emotions that can cause aggression.
All the videos in this series needs a thumbs up.
My thoughts: I don't think it's necessarily aggression that is natural. But the ability to set boundaries and be assertive, and stand up for oneself - I think that is natural. And when those parts of the personality aren't properly integrated, then aggression in darker forms arise.
Aggression is both nature and nurture TBH.
@@michaeloluokun9488 of course. It has to be innate before it can be expressed through nurture. I believe there is a warrior in all men :)
Masculinity is slowly falling for some reason
But men's chivalry needs to rise again
I'm pretty sure I have read that men, on average, have a higher level of aggressiveness then women do. That is something that is natural and came from millions of years of evolution. However, I feel like aggressiveness has a very negative connotation, that has gotten progressively more negative throughout the years. Aggressiveness is neither good nor bad, but amoral. It is simply the opposite of passivity, and of course which one you have and use in certain situations, as well as how you use them is key.
I feel like many people conflate and confuse aggression and anger, they are not the same. Aggression is not immoral or bad, but anger is. Aggression can spur people into protest over injustice, it can be the thing that gives you courage to approach your boss about a raise or the driving force behind the last-minute play that saves the game. Anger, however will only cause pain and hurt. Anger will never lead you toward the right path forward, it will make you act irrationally and distance you from the people around you.
It reminds me of a quote by Marcus Aurelius, which is very fitting considering the video:
“Keep this thought handy when you feel a fit of rage coming on-it isn’t manly to be enraged. Rather, gentleness and civility are more human, and therefore manlier. A real man doesn’t give way to anger and discontent, and such a person has strength, courage, and endurance-unlike the angry and complaining. The nearer a man comes to a calm mind, the closer he is to strength.”
Masculinity is what gives me the courage to confront life, and to bear responsibility of my actions toward me and other people, and gives me the internal peace to help people and never judge them, its basically what makes me a good man,
My dad went to work at 4am and came back at 8pm. He always sacrificed himself to provide without complaining. While my mother abused him (and us brothers and sisters). This what is always silent in the conversation about "masculinity" (when the talk should be about society's pressure and misandry) . Being a man means people expect you to sacrifice yourself for others. Expect you to be silent about your own issues because society tells you that is your role to suffer for others and not be a burden to others by talking about your emotions, doubts, fears, pain. You have to carry others' burden in addition to your own. This is all tied to male disposability.
if men must apologise for their aggression, then women should apologise for their manipuation
brent fisher my 4 year nephew usually makes these kinds of demands
"How do you think your relationship with your dad has affected you today?"
Not even in the slightest, since he was working round the clock and I barely got to see him.
If there is something I learnt from him, it is to not be a workaholic.
how bout you mom?
Interesting to hear from the one gentleman nonchalantly saying there was a lot of sexual abuse in male boarding schools. He knew that. Its been known. That's incredibly sad.
Never take lessons about masculinity from media like The Guardian.
Why is everybody complaining about the "low range of selection"? There are way more episodes with different men, too! Ya'll just gotta find something to hate just for the sake of it.
Its the Guardian. They deserve every bit of mockery they receive
Keep this up Iman, really good stuff
MGTOW: The only winning move is not to play.
@Juliana Silva "Coward" lol keep shaming men for making the right decision. clearly you are arrogant of the situation in divorce laws and women using men for assets. Game is rigged for men, marriage has been a sham for decades now.
A series on men... Presented by a woman.
Says it all really.
Without aggression you are prey to genuine evil out there. We all depend on good people inflicting violence to protect others.. Don't let the weak minded tell you otherwise, they just desire you defenseless and compliant
As a woman, I take meds cause I am physically aggressive and since everything, I went through, Have a hard time controlling it. Ever since a child, I never knew how to cry or express my emotions. My father put me in martial arts since I was 5 so I could control it. Worked for a long time, Until he passed away. My mom was in and out of nursing homes and mental hospitals since his death. Eventually, she passed away 3 years ago, And I am having a hard time with control. My doctor put me on meds for it... Aggressive behavior is not something u are taught, Sometimes u are born with the aggression... And not sure if this is what the video is about. But I would like to put this out there, Nothing wrong with men being Masculine at all.
This video, and indeed the whole series, is so interesting. I like the way this video gives a platform to men of differing ages and backgrounds. So often, other videos I’ve seen on the topic feature only men of a similar age. It’s very interesting to hear what Jon Snow and Francis Rossi have to say alongside the younger men’s views and experiences.
"differing backgrounds" This isn't true. Never upvote comments liked by Mainstream Media accounts folks.
handle box They do come from differing backgrounds, from working class to privileged. One participant is a headmaster’s son who went to boarding school, another is the son of an ice cream seller, whilst another says a lot of his friends are either dead or in prison.
@@nicolafigini784 Most people on this page seem to agree with me and disagree with you about the selection of backgrounds, so we don't need to go further into that.
I simply wish that people understand 'hearted' comments are used by Mainstream Media accounts just to fool people about the true general opinion/criticism of a video.
Also, 'Folks' was meant to people watching this video, not at you, I can't believe you got offended by that.
handle box I wasn’t offended, just pointing something out. And commas have a purpose! So it wasn’t obvious that you were addressing folks rather than describing them, due to the omission of a comma. But I realised afterwards that it was probably a punctuation error giving an erroneous meaning, which is why I went back and deleted that bit of my comment. However, I think the issue that most people have is that all the participants are apparently well-known, from their TV and media presence. But by ‘differing backgrounds’ I was referring to them having grown up as members of different social classes; I wasn’t speaking about their current positions in life. But anyhow...
@@l0ckb0x22 LOL, so I guess male artists are not man, while barbers are. What a joke
Aggression isn't the problem. Lack of internal discipline and confidence is the problem.
Masculinity built the modern world.
@Juliana Silva who build the house you live in?
Why do people instantly think that aggression MUST be something bad... Men are aggressive when they have to be, but calm and quiet when they don't. They cry when it's appropriate to cry, but temporarily hides their sadness if it's not appropriate/helpful at that particular moment. Men are naturally competitive towards each other, and expressing your feelings through tears is perceived as a weakness. That's how it's always been... And it's not "toxic" whatsover. In fact, it's what built civilization.
Now, go interview some more men than just "well known" ones. Ask the men making the cars you drive, who produces the heat in your house, who consistently invents things that makes life so much easier to live. Then you might get a *tiny* bit of credibility back.
The last episode had a really masculine person. Someone you can look up to. But this is going into a wrong direction. How can a homosexual man know what is it like to be masculine?
ala.ba7 Ask Alexander the Great.
I love this comment section. So many different people, of varying ages & backgrounds I'd likely assume, sharing & discussing their views on the questions presented with maturity & lack of childish attacks. Discussions such as there are so important, and I'm glad The Guardian is providing a platform for it.
That's the thing people don't get nowadays. You can disagree with someone without attacking them, and hating everything about them. This is first video I've watched on this topic by The Guardian, it's good they're looking at this, but I think they should've interviewed a broader group of men, most of these men are artists and such.
Agreed. I don't agree with most of the actual video (Agression is taught? Not true), but your comment is very true.
@@damntakes525 definitely man. disagreement is just as vital to the conversation as being able to see eye to eye. you can't chip away at the bullshit to reveal truth if differing views don't exist.
Round of applause to The Guardian for addressing the age old question of "What is a man and how does fit into the context of the contemporary world?" I appreciate this expose on challenging the established norms of sex and gender.
Not only is that aggresion natural , it is essential. Masculinity is needed to create order from chaos.
@Juliana Silva first of you make a bunch of assumptions without even knowing me. Women are equally aggresive as men but in different ways, lets take yourself as an example. You do not provide any alternatives to what i say. Pretty much only spewing hate towards me.
@Juliana Silva femininity is chaos, and you know it
Ultimately I’m not sure how healthy it is to have masculinity constantly on the autopsy table like this.
I seem to hear the phrase ‘we never talk about men’s emotions and mental health’ more days than not. It’s almost as though we’re encouraged to talk about it too much. I suppose it’s an admiral thing in a way but it does leave me slightly suspicious.
I know this video's pretty old now so the comment is kinda pointless but like... I connect with these kinds of people (i.e. entertainers) more than I connect with a lot of the other views in this series. They might not be working class, but they're still men, and still have a valid take on masculinity! I hope more series like this are introduced into the way we conduct journalism. Fab series
I’m a fan of this series, but as other commenters have mentioned I feel that focusing on artists ignores the Everyman. What made the first two episodes very interesting was the conversations with down-to-Earth working-class people. Not to say artists are not men/masculine, but rather it’s a very narrow and niche sample.
But like you said they spoke to that type of man in the first two episodes. The positive thing they're doing is speaking to a wide range of men. Not just stereotypically masculine men and not just artists.
Oh for sure, I’m not saying they shouldn’t interview artists. I’m merely saying they should have had both groups represented in this episode
Left to me, I’d say there’s a huge difference between “agression and violence”. Being able to differentiate between both factors could give a clearer opinion and perspective.
Whether aggression is natural or taught is a question for science. Biologists and Psychologists will tell you the answer.
Once one recognizes that the masculine operates by interacting with the feminine (and vice versa), they will then understand that what men do is often fueled by what women do.
This is a brilliant effort by the Guardian to put things outside the lens of right Vs left wing. I really hope people on the right, who have been appreciating this effort so far, to not be discouraged or offended by the choice of people interviewed on this episode, but rather take the series as a whole. :) Great episode btw Iman...
You interviewed four men who have difficult relationships with their fathers, nice.......
@@joshv89 Why is that a bad thing though?
aggression isn't a bad thing, it's just how you use it. It's a fundamental part of reality as is compassion for example. It's necessary as without it you have a weak/feeble population or gender that cannot help or protect.
This wasn't the least bit enlightening. Steep downward trend after the previous videos.
That's the whole idea. Get you hooked, get your votes, your money and then try and turn your thinking brain into one that blindly follows a narrative planned ahead. That's the way feminism works. That's the way leftists work. This whole series was designed to put forth the feminist argument that masculinity is bad. It is really not about masculinity. If it was, it would have been done very differently.
Because it didn’t reflect your own opinions? The whole point is to listen to people you wouldn’t normally listen to.
Young men need role models and unfortunately, there aren't as many in local communities and in the media the message of what a man should be and how he should act is completely shattered. Luckily there are y few Channels that share useful messages like Jocko Podcast, Mastery Order, Order of Man, Jordan B. Peterson.
If you are a young man searching for answers and looking for a role model, share and learn these messages, and if you were lucky enough to have a great role model in your life share your knowledge so that others can benefit as well.
Become a great man that can be trusted and relied upon!
Cheers, reader!
I like this series a lot. But please do more than to interview entertainers. Please interview cops, businessmen, etc
Aggression is more nuanced that just saying whether or not it is taught. Many aggressive men, often with troubled pasts, are withholding emotions they don't even understand. Most aggressive men I have encountered have traits that are clearly not taught in wider society, their behavior comes off as more psychopathic.
Dear Iman,
I am writing to you because I am an admirer of your work on the Modern Masculinity series. I think your work is incredibly useful for men and boys of all ages, especially in today’s world.
In addition, I am also writing to you because I want to contribute to her series if possible. Specifically, I want to talk about the value of opening up and even crying for men. Through life experiences, and exposure to broader society and media, I think a destructive stereotype of what a man should be is instilled in many men / people: a man with clear cut abs, who only smiles to woo ladies, who has a Rolex, drives a Bentley and has large amounts of money. I think while all these traits are admirable, they don’t really leave room for a man to develop as a person, they don’t leave room for a man to be himself, whoever that is. In turn, this gets in the way of developing relationships, intimate or otherwise, causes loneliness and confusion. While this applies to me, I am confident that this applies to many men worldwide.
I want to share my story and share what I learned through my experiences, including failed relationships, depression, and feeling stuck, which all revolve around my own oppression of who the man that I am, due to trying to be the man that I think is expected of me.
Thank you greatly for your time, and please let me know if I can collaborate with you, perhaps by having a remote conversation that would be added as part of your series.
Sincerely,
Ovidiu Beschieru
MD candidate, 2024, St. George’s University
BSc, Psychology and Chemistry, University of Alberta
Should've picked better people to ask questions to. I don't think they were truly representative of the true masculine perspective.
Great interviews. You can really tell that the journalist Iman Amrani is really interested in her subjects. The question about nature vs. nurture is a biological or psychological question, not an anecdotal question tho.
I think one thing that makes a man is responsibility and being accountable for you actions and having self-control.
What makes a man Mr Lebowski?
Alessandro Columbu Dude*
MMA fighters are aggressive but they are also deeply empathetic, compassionate, and respectful of their opponent and the competition often times. Aggression should not be confused with blind rage or evil.
Aggression is more innate in men. It's how we were designed but aggression in itself is not a bad thing. Aggression in it's proper place moves men to achieve good goals and be protectors of those in danger.
But all good things can be corrupted. And that's the issue - not aggression, but corrupt aggression.
I appreciate the need to attempt a new direction, the previous two episodes being so similar, but where I got a lot from them, I haven't really gotten much from this. If I'm honest, I think it's because these guys are celebrities and if there's a type of person I have never felt connected to, it's celebrities. This series would be better served contacting the most eloquent commenters in its comments sections and asking them in for interviews (after necessary vetting, of course).
I think a certain degree of aggression is natural, thousands of years of evolution required that to solve degree. You have to be strong, fast, aggressive, and dominant to protect the tribe. But the difference is that you still have to be taught to RELY on that aggression, to feed into it and make it a go-to response, and sometimes men never find, or are never taught, to find more mature ways to go about their lives. So when you pose that question of the relationship between masculinity and violent crime, I think that correlation exists because of how easy and common it is for men to be taught to harness their aggression without restraint.
As a side note, I would really like to see all of these interviews in full. This series has been fascinating and very well made, and I would love to hear more.
I can relate to Jon Snow's statements about his father- but both of my parents aren't really in the place I want to head towards, so I've always had to struggle a bit more to find the answers I need. Reading helps, but I guess things take longer when you''re young, growing up and a bit naive without someone to reinforce positive aspects or to guide you towards what you want.
There is nothing wrong with standing up for your self or fighting back against people that will push you .
found this channel yesterday and ive become addicted
Thank you so much for doing this series! It is a much-needed discussion. I think that most of the questions you have addressed in this specific episode are central to the debate on modern masculinity. It would be great if you could add more languages - like Spanish - to the closed captions. I would like to talk about these issues with my dad, but he doesn't speak English.
i know this has been said a million times already, but i really want to thank you for taking the time to actually consider men's issues and not treating us and our problems like a used up tissue
The only good thing, was said by Rossi to make sure what we teach kids to be shouldn't be obsolete in 30 years. The rest of answers and hosts was either bias, wrong or insignificant. Dig deeper.
That's an impossible task. Just look at the changes over the last thirty years.
@@kebabtank I beg to differ. Values of a great man haven't changed for centuries. Look up how Jordan Peterson described an ideal man or watch gladiator.
Dennis Rodman was my role model growing up. He broke all the roles and was loved for not fitting in. Needless to say, I did not fit in.
mainstream media is the absolute last place to look for a definition of masculinity, unless invert their message and believe the opposite.
Best thing about being male is having permission to live life authentically. Being more interested in things and ideas than other peoples internal lives and a sense of a real connection to matter and physical energy, things that most men have an innate interest in mastering or controlling from a very young age.
Why do I feel that this is in some way a very passive interrogation that asks men to justify and define a few well known primal traits? Read a history book. A lot of questions as to how gender shaped itself as mankind evolved and what role aggression plays will be answered. Goes without saying that no gender should be discriminated against.
To me, it seems the "passivity" you mentioned is indeed the point of the video. The intent of this vid doesnt seem to be to justify or to define anything for certain, rather to gain personal insight to what some men think about these topics. The intent is to listen. It's a rarity to hear men speak about these personal topics so openly after all
Aggression is natural. But how you channel your aggression is what matters. You can be destructively aggressive but you can also be productively aggressive.
Isn't it amazing that women can talk about 'modern masculinity' without censure but should a man say anything about 'women's issues' the shouts of misogyny, mansplaining and patriarchy are screeched loudly!
I would say that aggression is more natural prevalent in men than women, but violence is taught.
Aggression? No shame. Shame is a lack of communication and understanding of our Self and our world. Shame is the universal lie we have bought into.
She is a great journalist and the series is awesome but id just have to say that this episode was lacking due to the fact that all of these men are pretty similar and not really representative of men as a whole. I look forward to watching the rest of the series though
I hear you but there are a lot of different episodes, perhaps 15 or so, and each one offers something a bit different...
Decent episode. From Ms. Amrani's comments here, she sincerely seems to have taken on board that these guys were almost entirely creative/expressive types (reality TV star, journo, musicians, etc.), so they're quite a bit different from average men.
Asking the Guardian on Masculinity.... no bias whatsoever, I assure you
6:04 "when you was growing up" Iman went road for second.
lol
Unhealthy aggression is a human problem not simply a male problem. Just because men have more capacity to cause harm doesn't mean that women are exempt from acting aggressively e.g., research has shown women are more aggressive in relationships but men inflict more damage and you end up with a statistic that makes it look like it's overwhelmingly a male problem. It's not that simple.
Even tough I am a man, I can't understand what all the fuzz about masculinity is about. Our perception and idea of gender is a cultural product, so mighty and omnipresent, that it does not only influence how we see ourselves, but how we actually might work as biological beings. I don't even see a way where we can truly ever escape our socialisation. That said, I don't think that this makes us unable to shape and decide freely who we want to be under the condition that we learn to reflect on the basis of our relationships with others. We should choose wisely who we want to have in our lives and with whom it is reasonable to built a mutual relationship. Because there are more fundamental and universal things in life than gender or identity. Learning to treat each other well, being generous, protective, curious, involved and supportive are transcultural values and much more relevant then any cultural norm like gender could ever be. Unfortunately, nobody in art or media (may it be left or right) has the boldness to show such a utopian world anymore, no wonder everybody is obsessed and superfragile about their identities. People don't form a consistent entity in the path of their lives. Nobody dies as the person they were as a child. Life mostly doesn't form a biographical causality, it is more often upsettingly random, although lives of famous people are often depicted in a way that show a logical and conclusive story. Bourdieu called this the 'biographical illusion'.
But it doesn't matter who you are. It only matters what you do.
I do not think that the question about aggression was expanded upon enough. The word aggression by itself is too broad. If someone hits another individual one of our natural responses is either to be aggressive back or run. This is known as fight or flight, not learned just born with it. Also, in toddlers you can see aggression take form before they are even able to speak. So it would be hard to suggest that this is a learn outcome entirely. So is it natural to be aggressive, yes, mammals display aggression often. But social aggression is also learned. I don't think you can say that it's 100% one way or the other. And to phrase a question like is aggression natural or is it learned is not fully adequate.
Exactly
So aggression in men is taught? It's a pretty big coincidence that men in cultures all over the world who have no contact with men of other cultures, all display more aggression than women. Aggression in men is good, not "toxic." It helped create the modern world.
Ironic that this series is hosted by someone named "Iman", who is, in fact, not a man. Great series Guardian!
A small sample study trying to pass itself off as intelligent. This video is an appeal to vanity, so its viewers can feel better after having watching it.
I don't think many men and boys in society can relate to the people you interviewed, I think it would be better to have interviewed the unknown people rather than celebrities, celebrities usually don't have the same mindset as the common folk, still an interesting video though :)
You should check out the other episodes, this is the first episode I’m aware of where they have used celebrities
I don’t know who any of these people are so they might as well be regular guys to me
Aggression being taught is fairly close to the theory that domestic violence is a learned pattern of behaviour. If anyone is interested please look at Erin Pizzey she was chased out of the UK for putting forward such a theory.