Borked it on the Slayers. I made the assumption without checking that Dragonbacks had AP, but yeah they don't xD Went with them as they had the charge defence over Giant Slayers. Meant to test Giant Slayers but totally forgot. But I done did it now and the results: vs Bloodcrushers - 0:35 vs Butchers - 0: 33 vs Dread Saurian - 6000, 5500, 4000, 4800, 5100 1 - 1 - 6 maybe? So perhaps 2nd place. Some strong lads! But I'm definitely going in the book. Balls. Is it obvious I haven't played Warhammer 3 for awhile xD Apologies for the bork. Shit happens.
yea i also thought they would be pretty ideal for this contest! scary unit if it ever touches your large... i just send chaff at then like skeletons. extremely efficient vs them! also summoning zombies :D also why did u talk about charge bonus? Basically all these units have charge defense so the charge bonus should always be 0!
@@sionbarzad5371 usually ur vamp coast fire power, with obliterate anything before they do reach ur front line. So I only use like 2 on the flanks. But yeah low model count. But good thing vamp coast has insane ranged units.
Dread saurian feels a little weak, it's a 3100 cost anti infantry monster, and it gets routed by a single regiment of infantry. Also the temple guard did surprisingly bad here. I thought they were much better.
@@Sovann_the_Mighty tempel guards are really bad😢 A shame cus i love lizardmen. I bet a boosted saurus spears Could almost do the same damage, with a lot cheaper cost
They got their buff before I heard about it, so I remember my first battle against them and being shocked at how easily a few units of them slaughtered most of my army. Very eye opening. Depth guard are sick looking too.
Would have been interesting if you parked an idle ranged unit behind the Cathay boys so they had their bonus. The faction pretty much relies on that synergy.
That's what i was thinking, they were likely designed with harmony boosts in mind. otherwise they're kinda shitty. despite this in my cathay campaigns they hold the line like no other.
They also cost much less than the others, to the point that for the same price as the other factions, you could have 6 units instead of 5, which would make an incredible difference. Considering this and the addition of the harmony, I really think that they could actually end up being first !
Yeah it would be a cool test to see how much of a difference the harmony boost makes with Cathay units. Especially since “Harmony Amplifier” is supposed to be a big selling point for some units.
Tzeench Chosen Hallbirds not only routed most of the enemies but remained half health. That mean you could use them further in battle, so they're the best anti large unit.
I'm in a Tzeench campaign with Lizardmen endgame, and those Chosens are an absolute godsend. Hold forever and routinely outdamage stuff like exalted flamers.
I actually would say the depth guard is best because from what I've noticed playing with them, because they're low entity their health losses look larger but they are more tanky per entity so their entity numbers is what is important after a fight, which is true of chosen of tzeentch as well but more so for depth guard cuz they have the hunger and 20 less entities. For example there are many times where I've had a unit of depth guard lose 25 to 30% of their HP bar but only lost 5 entities. Then sent them into combat with archers or weaker enemies and they regen to near max. I think depth guard would also out last tzeentch chosen if they survived this first charge then attacked a large unity that wasn't charging at them. And I think they would definitely out do tzeentch chosen in terms of HP lost in a test where the large enemy unity wasn't charging or if the depth guard was charging the large unit.
It's the Dave-Games; to find the greatest Goliath slayer, every dave in the old world is rounded up, handed a Halberd, drilled in infantry formations and melee technique and finally, pitted against an assortment of cavalry, bipedal cow-valry and a Bread Sore Ian, with only the survivors going on to become full fledged Dave Guard, as the dead ones have actually died already.
@@alexs_toy_barn I believe those are still behind regular Giant Slayers in terms of stats, but provide other benefits and come with Physical Resistance. Giant Slayers really should have been the pick here.
Despite losing, I'd still say the Celestial Guard did pretty well: Considering they're significantly cheaper than most others, and they were fighting without harmony. Good show by the Cathayans! \o/
@@olafthemoose9413Temple guild are shielded as well,they were both design to hold line.However, lizardman doesn't have a line to hold, so they pretty much gets ignored.😅
Your cat is worried about you. Alone, sitting in the dark at your computer, AND you were talking to yourself. It had to do something to get your attention. Your cat is the real hero(or heroine), here.
I feel like you should have used the Dune Dragons RoR. Done the celestial dragon guard dirty only being 1050 cost unit and no harmony. I know its hard to have cost for cost units against eachother, but putting a 1050 CDG vs a 1600 chosen is savage.
As a high elf main, it pleases me that the Phoenix Guard did so well. Visually one of my favorite units in the game, so I'm glad they back it up by being good at their job. I'm quite surprised by the Depth Guard though. I thought they'd be near the bottom, that was a standout performance
Asuryan protects and for the Phoenix King my brother! As for the Depth Guard, well they are vampires, they are always full of surprises, especially nasty ones, aren't they? (Ditto if they are wights I don't recall exactly)
@@borgCube100 Yeah, always seemed a bit strange to me. Especially since they have very high leadership, so they typically don't flee until they're down to a few models anyway. Wouldn't have been THAT much of a buff to just give them unbreakable at that point.
@@JB-xl2jc That's exactly it - they don't route till they're near dead ANYWAY so it wouldn't have been too much - IDK if you play/keep up with The Old World, but their rules on TT now really suck so it's still nice to have them be awesome here lol
@@hebermatute6393 nope, but there is a mod called “Patron Gods” that gives the chaos rosters the missing chaos/chosen units with their respective roles. So you can recruit Chosen of Khorne (halberds).
No surprises here. I played an Archaon campaign and despite access to a massive roster of potential units, I quickly realized that Tzeench chosen with halberds (and, to a lesser extent, Tzeench Chaos knights) were the most reliable option.
Same with marauder horsemen. Magic missiles, and the barrier helps against those breath attacks and magic, especially when you aren't microing them well. Makes them more forgiving.
@@IllustriousCrocoduck yes, Tzeench marauder horsemen are excellent as well. You can upgrade them to Chaos Knights if you want but both options are great.
@@TheMagicalPinata I was playing Radious and Festus had them WITH regeneration and the mod making elite units stronger as well as Festus buffs and oh my god 2 regiments slaughtered like 10 of mine and I had to micro really hard to win that, my units were of course far lower tier as well but yeah it was crazy I renember back then in WH2 times how terrible of a unit they were though, used to be the absolute weakest garbage on the planet so im glad that they are now proper
Always love the "Who's the best" videos you make. May I ask what made you chose these anti-large units from factions over other factions? is it purely because they are all some of the best?
For example empire halberds wouldnt hold a candle to any of these so there was no reason to include them, same for great weapon grave guard etc. The units in the video are all in the top bracket of cost for anti large infantry, bringing a unit from a roster that doesnt have anything anti large that isnt half the price of these wouldnt even have been competitive
Would’ve been cool to have a graph for avg HP remaining for the units as well. Would help knowing if they’re going to have enough HP to help in the rest of the battle Fantastic video as always
Don't they have perfect charge defence as well? Can't remember how good the normal Halberdiers' defence is but I'm sure the Severed Claw has a special buff to themselves.
Giant slayers would be a better fit, and dragonback slayers don´t have fire attacks, they give -20% fire resistance, so they didn´t have advantage against minotaurs
Yep the result comes about from the low armor of the minos and the extremely high base damage of the slayers. No damage increase necessary to explain the result.
I love this type of content. It reminds of my medival 2 and rome 2 custom battles sending units against each others just to enjoy the slaughtering and to see who is better. Wondering how the bretonian beastslayers of bastonne would have performed. Please more olympics
Good video. Harmony bonus aside, I'm not surprised to see CDG underperform in a contest of damage dealing, since their only job is to hold the line while their factions ranged units handle the damage dealing.
They have decent damage, but they are a cheaper unit costing 1050. Putting them vs chosen which cost 1600 and not giving them harmony is why they look bad. The Dune Dragons should have been used, seeing as tho he decided to upgrade dwarfs and skaven.
Indeed! And in the case of phoenix guards who have physical resistance, fighting skullcrushers would probably have gone better. I guess I'll write "use units with physical attacks" on a piece of paper ready for the recycling.
Thank you so much for this comparison. Even when the TWWH 2 was released, I wrote under the videos where TH-camrs compare units that it's stupid to pit anti-large against each other, and they should arrange a competition to kill monsters. But you're the first one to do it all this time. The only remark is that it would be nice to show the remaining HP units to better reveal its effectiveness. Let's say the temple guards are slowly killing monsters, but maybe they have a lot of hp left, which makes them a good defenders? Perhaps even better than others? Or can they fight longer and take on more large units? Showing the remaining amount of hp would help answer these questions. Google Translator helped me with this message.
I figured Depth Guard would do well because those ocean encounters show you who's who. DG always stands last. Great vid! Maybe my fave so far in this genre.
I've always loved this series! Since the anti-large role is often more about screening and holding vs pure killing speed I personally think that how much health the unit has remaining is overall more important than time to kill. Especially for SEMs where you just need the unit to hold while your ranged blast them down, etc. But then I realized that's partly reflected in the results since the units that keep their models alive longer (like Tzeentch chosen) also output more damage in general so it's probably balanced out somewhat. Also, every time I see Cathay in these test I think it would be great to see their harmony bonus accounted for by parking a sky junk overhead without firing since that really their "ideal" stat line. Not that it would have made much of a difference, I just feel bad for the poor gits 😂 Great stuff as usual!
Good points though. It worked out pretty well this on all these, but yes you definitely need them to make it through with plenty of health. Most of the time, these elite units will be outnumbered by the enemies you need them to kill, so you want them to make it though multiple units. I just spent quite a while with Be'lakor cutting through the Sylvanian end game crisis and those halberd units are critical against all the big stuff the vamps bring. Plus, in that area you also have to fight the dwarf crisis and some of the wood elves all at the same time. Halberds are only slightly less important against the latter, and aren't useless against the stubbies. Better to have if it's halberds vs. great weapons in your armies. If you can take both then great.
I wonder how doing this test with some archers sitting behind the celestial dragon guard to give harmony buff would change their performance. Harmony buff is pretty huge for Cathay.
I guess the Cathay unit did worst, cause they got the Harmony bonus working for them in an actual battle. Would have been curious to see how it goes with a Yin unit standing nearby
I would have liked that you could elaborate more in the end how unit size, frenzy, charge reflection and physical resistance affects the results. I was quite impress with the Skaven
I recently found out that there is a hidden mass multiplier with regards to the amount of ranks that a unit has. You can see how few council guard get knocked back compared to the depth guard, depth guard are heavier. I believe the mass cap is at 8 ranks deep, so if you have to take a charge, getting a thick unit is recommended.
The council guard suffered the in the first 2 rounds purely due to the fact their numbers can't be utilised properly in a proper fight they'd surround their enemies and attack from all sides
Finally, I was waiting for this video. Great job. Although, you forgot to mention that the Phoenix Guard have a good amount of physical resistance as well, which is probably why they did quite good.
I think having a versus competition 'in the traditional style' would be a good supplement to this test. It would help show which units are more versatile and which are the most situational and only good versus large.
Agree with this given there are many times you antilarge will have to fight regular infantry. Chosen of Tzeentch probably still win though, since barrier is that strong.
I want to point out 2 things in this test. 1. The dwarven giant slayers have more Ap as far as i remember so they would probably do better overall in these tests. 2. Choosing a regenerating large unit is somewhat unfair to the infantry with lower attack/damage as they have to fight longer anyway and the regen just drags it out further.
Just picked up TWW3 on sale and then found your channel. I really enjoy your vids, insights, tactics, and humor. This is by far the best Royal Rumble vid. The amount of time and testing is great. Bless your cotton socks (if you wear any.)
Temple Guard definitely aren't living up to their tabletop and lore reputation, they just take too long to kill things, sad as a LM player. Celestial Guard seems a bit weaksauce as well, though they probably are meant to be given the whole combined arms shtick Cathay has across the board.
Not to mention all of their weird buff alignments in campaign. How they're technically saurus but get access to none of the heaps of saurus bonuses the game gives you. Honestly I feel like they should be a bit beefier and have at least a melee attack buff. Like I know their attack cycle is faster than other units and their stats being lower is an attempt to compensate but it doesn't quite work.
@@dyer4677 Right? I've pointed out those sorts of issues when discussing the TG on the forums multiple times. Besides them being lowballed in general, I think a big contributing issue is the way anti-large and anti-infantry units have their base attack values nerfed to account for the bonus they receive, just makes them artificially weaker than they should be in non counter match-ups and only serves to mitigate whatever bonus they do get in the first place. Inconsistencies like this plague multiple other unit types in the game as well and coming from the perspective of an older TW player as well, I hate it.
@@dyer4677 it's because they are in between normal and anti-large, whereas almost every other faction has elite normal infantry and elite anti-large infantry seperately.
@@FrenkieWest32 Base stats intact with a smaller overall bonus for the relevant match up. Keeps them just as viable in their role as a counter without artificially nerfing them in all other situations. Polearms in general are done incredibly dirty in modern TW iterations.
Love the video Zerkovich, but I do think another measure of BEST would be how much health the anti-large has at the end of the fight, the way you're doing it favors units with high attack slightly. Obviously for the fights where the anit-large don't survive, then it's clear the attack is important to finish the target (can't just be 100% defense).
Great content, also excellent commentary, Zerkovich seemed to be in a good mood lol The only change I reckon is the dread saurian test could be done by averaging out the numbers, just to make it clearer. I will go chuck the notes in the bin :P
cavalry test: I'd like to adjust the ranks with some opinions, Celestial Dragon Guard are by far the cheapest of the units here which makes their lower performance far more acceptable considering their foe's almost 500 gold difference. They're more valuable than the video suggests. The Depth Guard on the other hand almost had a complete leak, and in unisolated conditions this would've caused their foe to easily dump into the backlines where their damage matters while the depth guard were able to tank it, and spank it. They were not able to stop it. Which makes them far less valuable. Council Guard performed... about as well as a Skaven unit can be expected... terrible performance but the best Skaven will be able to give. Slayers are garbage. With Squad monsters it seems that the ones that can deal the most damage (since it's easier to surround) Pair off better defensively. The more attack, the better the outcome.
It is so painful seeing all those anti-large units taking a full charge head on, with a swinging or some fancy spinning attack animation. You have a pointy stick in your hand, there is a ton of flesh and steel running at you, what you do? "- I SWING IT" "- I DO A FANCY TWIRL AROUND IN A TIGHT FORMATION" "- I SIMPLY STAND AND WATCH" NO! You put its blunt end into the ground and hold its pointy end towards the charge! Do NOT hold it behind you and try to swing that Khorne beast away from yourself with a buckler like that one Cathay warrior. Honestly, where are the good ol' pikemen with their proper spear walls?
I would love to see losses/ damage taken in these as well, not that it should change the competition outcome but just that it's fun to think about Love your stuff
I know that its super late, but I think that it would be interesting to repeat this test after all the updates that have taken place. Could you unclude the RORs of all the units that you did foe this video vs Shredder of Lustria? That would be super fun.
The celestial dragon guard needs to have ranged units near them for the harmony maybe. The harmony stuff is a huge part of the faction so I’m not surprised the units underperform in isolation. Maybe you could have some ranged just looking the other way nearby to give them that buff…
When I tested celestial dragon guards with harmony right after formation attack was buffed, they beat elite bloodthirsters charging headon. It was just regular harmony too, no lords nearby. Before the nerfs to formation attack 2 peasant spears would beat skarbrand due to harmony and formation attack.
I do have to ask, what about the wood elves, greenskins, empire and vampire counts? I know not as amazing normally as the high and dark elves but still useful. I've used the last 2 to hold lines against several foes and typically didn't do too bad. I do wish Cathay had some better infantry. The celestial dragon guard are the top unit and the best sword infantry are jade warriors. I know they are a defensive faction and thus have amazing ranged option, celestial Crossbows and crane gunners, but still we need good infantry.
@@kubaGR8 Tsar guard are pretty elite, but when most of the human factions are prissy simps for ze Lady playing hide the lance or rely more on gunpowder than a strong right arm it makes sense there's only one human faction that has good melee soldiers
@@callumcochrane7759 Ah, that one always made me wonder How come Kislev is the only human nation that can afford to deck their troops out in armour I stg
On a meta level, I think part of the reason Empire, Brets, etc. Are underwhelming compared to others is they have always meant to be "vanilla" and give us (players) perspective of having to fight literally any battle in Warhammer. It makes for easier drama if the odds are against you by default. If there were Imperial Chosen fighting against marauders all the time, it's not as exciting. You see it in 40k with Astartes. Fighting against anything that isn't another atsrates is often boring, or to just show how badass they are. I think the main reason good humans are weaker has most to do with the aesthetics of the cultures they are based on being rooted in reality, vs. The various fantastical enemies they encounter. You put the best Landschnecht in the worls against a 7 foot tall semi-immortal brute in chaos armor, and we probably don't need to bet the outcome.
i would be curious to see this now as, specially ones like the stormvermin halberds, there have been quite a few changes. The difference could highlight how much stuff has changed in a way.
Damn the dwarves grudge is strong. That wee slayer that get decapitated at 3:50 still had enough in him to do a final sweeping attack as he falls dead 🤘
Wouldn't you keep them in a box formation to better negate the charge? I could have sworn you did a video about getting the best out of anti large infantry by keeping them in a box formation. If you want to retest😅
I would love to see how all of these hold against war Mammoths. I think they are bigger threat then Dread Saurian. But it was nice to see Big lizard as well.
Aktshually, regeneration does help depth guard with dishing out more damage. If they lose less models, they have more models that can deal damage. Look up Lanchester's square law.
3:40 perfect example of small enteties getting +600 mass when bracing (immovable). It's not just the charge defence playing a role there. However I am unshure if the "bracing_immovable_by_small_entety_mass, 600" rule is a flat value or a % multiplier. (TWW stats /kw/rules for ref). I can't help but wonder if this plays into the Ranged AI bug (Is it fixed yet?), where they chose to brace vs large charcters under X amout of mass, rather than fire at will on hard+ difficulity. Witch turns into some pretty dumb AI behavior.
Too many variables in this, Tzeench and Slayers only did well cuse they had magic and fire attacks... So if you had chosen enemies that would not have problem with magic or fire they would be lower on the list. Also a unit is never only used against the type it is strongest so you should also match the anti large vs order anti large, to see how they fare against their nemesis and as an overall unit... As some units will be amazing against the type they are strong, but will suck against everything else!
That's about what I expected. The Phoenix Guard aren't the kings of damage and their biggest benefit is that they won't run until you have like three models left. The changes to Prowess have done well for them since now at least they keep the good stats much longer.
Borked it on the Slayers. I made the assumption without checking that Dragonbacks had AP, but yeah they don't xD Went with them as they had the charge defence over Giant Slayers. Meant to test Giant Slayers but totally forgot. But I done did it now and the results:
vs Bloodcrushers - 0:35
vs Butchers - 0: 33
vs Dread Saurian - 6000, 5500, 4000, 4800, 5100
1 - 1 - 6 maybe? So perhaps 2nd place. Some strong lads! But I'm definitely going in the book. Balls.
Is it obvious I haven't played Warhammer 3 for awhile xD Apologies for the bork. Shit happens.
yea i also thought they would be pretty ideal for this contest! scary unit if it ever touches your large...
i just send chaff at then like skeletons. extremely efficient vs them! also summoning zombies :D
also why did u talk about charge bonus? Basically all these units have charge defense so the charge bonus should always be 0!
One wrong righted, but the great book of grudges remains full.
should probably pin this comment!
No worries lad!
What does AP mean? New to the warhammer jargon
For reference, the cost of each unit, in order of appearance:
1300 - Black Guard of Naggarond (Dark Elves)
1200 - Dragonback Slayers* (Dwarfs)
1050 - Celestial Dragon Guard (Grand Cathay)
1300 - Phoenix Guard (High Elves)
1200 - Temple Guard (Lizardmen)
1350 - Council Guard* (Skaven)
1600 - Chosen of Tzeentch, Halberds (Tzeentch)
1200 - Depth Guard, Polearms (Vampire Coast)
1400 - Chosen, Halberds (Warriors of Chaos)
Their foes:
1500 - Bloodcrushers of Khorne (Khorne)
1500 - Butchers of Kalkengard* (Beastmen)
3100 - Dread Saurian (Lizardmen)
* = Regiment of Renown
For the depth guard price that’s very good. Frenzy, and regen. 1200 not bad.
@@nergigante. only 60 toons tho, they are good in certain situations but against cheap numerous infantry they easily get surrounded
@@sionbarzad5371 usually ur vamp coast fire power, with obliterate anything before they do reach ur front line. So I only use like 2 on the flanks. But yeah low model count. But good thing vamp coast has insane ranged units.
Dread saurian feels a little weak, it's a 3100 cost anti infantry monster, and it gets routed by a single regiment of infantry.
Also the temple guard did surprisingly bad here. I thought they were much better.
@@Sovann_the_Mighty tempel guards are really bad😢 A shame cus i love lizardmen. I bet a boosted saurus spears Could almost do the same damage, with a lot cheaper cost
Depth Guard have a smaller regiment size (at only 60) so them killing things this fast is actually pretty decent.
They got their buff before I heard about it, so I remember my first battle against them and being shocked at how easily a few units of them slaughtered most of my army. Very eye opening. Depth guard are sick looking too.
They really surprised me!
Would have been interesting if you parked an idle ranged unit behind the Cathay boys so they had their bonus. The faction pretty much relies on that synergy.
Agree. I think the test for them is not representative.
100% he could have easily made sure he turned auto fire off as well, so they didn't invalidate the test vis firing at the enemy unit.
Would be interesting to see how celestial dragon guard do with harmony added.
That's what i was thinking, they were likely designed with harmony boosts in mind. otherwise they're kinda shitty. despite this in my cathay campaigns they hold the line like no other.
Yeah, the setting of this competition cripples the unit by removing the harmony buff completely.
They also cost much less than the others, to the point that for the same price as the other factions, you could have 6 units instead of 5, which would make an incredible difference.
Considering this and the addition of the harmony, I really think that they could actually end up being first !
Yeah it would be a cool test to see how much of a difference the harmony boost makes with Cathay units. Especially since “Harmony Amplifier” is supposed to be a big selling point for some units.
This is a chaos channel.
Tzeench Chosen Hallbirds not only routed most of the enemies but remained half health. That mean you could use them further in battle, so they're the best anti large unit.
Yeah I would consider health remaining to be a more important factor than kill time in most situations.
I'm in a Tzeench campaign with Lizardmen endgame, and those Chosens are an absolute godsend. Hold forever and routinely outdamage stuff like exalted flamers.
The ROR aspiring champions are absolute monsters as well, upwards of 6-7k damage in gold value in my Archaon campaign every battle
The regiment of renown version is the best anti large in the game by far
I actually would say the depth guard is best because from what I've noticed playing with them, because they're low entity their health losses look larger but they are more tanky per entity so their entity numbers is what is important after a fight, which is true of chosen of tzeentch as well but more so for depth guard cuz they have the hunger and 20 less entities. For example there are many times where I've had a unit of depth guard lose 25 to 30% of their HP bar but only lost 5 entities. Then sent them into combat with archers or weaker enemies and they regen to near max. I think depth guard would also out last tzeentch chosen if they survived this first charge then attacked a large unity that wasn't charging at them. And I think they would definitely out do tzeentch chosen in terms of HP lost in a test where the large enemy unity wasn't charging or if the depth guard was charging the large unit.
It's the Dave-Games; to find the greatest Goliath slayer, every dave in the old world is rounded up, handed a Halberd, drilled in infantry formations and melee technique and finally, pitted against an assortment of cavalry, bipedal cow-valry and a Bread Sore Ian, with only the survivors going on to become full fledged Dave Guard, as the dead ones have actually died already.
Dave Guard ;p
Would Giant Slayers have performed better than the DB Slayers due to their AP?
also more hp and higher anti large bonus
Giant Slayers are an upgrade to regular Slayers in every way except regarding their miniscule missile resistance.
You're supposed to fax that question to the bin I thought.
@@HiddenEvilStudios he's using the RoR slayers tho, that may make them better overall than giant slayers
@@alexs_toy_barn I believe those are still behind regular Giant Slayers in terms of stats, but provide other benefits and come with Physical Resistance. Giant Slayers really should have been the pick here.
Despite losing, I'd still say the Celestial Guard did pretty well: Considering they're significantly cheaper than most others, and they were fighting without harmony. Good show by the Cathayans! \o/
Plus they are not actually design to kill things, but rather hild the line.
Also the only shielded infantry on the list.
@@olafthemoose9413Temple guild are shielded as well,they were both design to hold line.However, lizardman doesn't have a line to hold, so they pretty much gets ignored.😅
@@samzhao6662 Temple guard are so irrelevant with saurus doing their job just as well I completely forgot about them lol
Your cat is worried about you. Alone, sitting in the dark at your computer, AND you were talking to yourself. It had to do something to get your attention. Your cat is the real hero(or heroine), here.
I feel like you should have used the Dune Dragons RoR. Done the celestial dragon guard dirty only being 1050 cost unit and no harmony. I know its hard to have cost for cost units against eachother, but putting a 1050 CDG vs a 1600 chosen is savage.
As a high elf main, it pleases me that the Phoenix Guard did so well. Visually one of my favorite units in the game, so I'm glad they back it up by being good at their job.
I'm quite surprised by the Depth Guard though. I thought they'd be near the bottom, that was a standout performance
Asuryan protects and for the Phoenix King my brother! As for the Depth Guard, well they are vampires, they are always full of surprises, especially nasty ones, aren't they? (Ditto if they are wights I don't recall exactly)
Their lore is pretty cool too, knowing when they'll die and vow of silence and all. They should be unbreakable realistically.
@@JB-xl2jc Bit late - but tbf they basically are. Never understood why they AREN'T unbreakable.
@@borgCube100 Yeah, always seemed a bit strange to me. Especially since they have very high leadership, so they typically don't flee until they're down to a few models anyway. Wouldn't have been THAT much of a buff to just give them unbreakable at that point.
@@JB-xl2jc That's exactly it - they don't route till they're near dead ANYWAY so it wouldn't have been too much - IDK if you play/keep up with The Old World, but their rules on TT now really suck so it's still nice to have them be awesome here lol
chosen with halberds is basicly my favourite unit in the whole game! they so solid in like every melee battle.
When I played Khorne I loved those units. They're tanky as fuck
@@MisterGreenw00d does khorne have chosen with halberds?
@@hebermatute6393 Khorne has Chaos Warriors with Halberds, but I don't think he has Chosen with Halberds
@@amandag.6186 Nope, only chosen with axe/shield or axe/axe.
@@hebermatute6393 nope, but there is a mod called “Patron Gods” that gives the chaos rosters the missing chaos/chosen units with their respective roles. So you can recruit Chosen of Khorne (halberds).
I really really love halberds, both in-game and conceptually, so this is the video I look forward to most.
No surprises here. I played an Archaon campaign and despite access to a massive roster of potential units, I quickly realized that Tzeench chosen with halberds (and, to a lesser extent, Tzeench Chaos knights) were the most reliable option.
Same with marauder horsemen. Magic missiles, and the barrier helps against those breath attacks and magic, especially when you aren't microing them well. Makes them more forgiving.
@@IllustriousCrocoduck yes, Tzeench marauder horsemen are excellent as well. You can upgrade them to Chaos Knights if you want but both options are great.
I have been running around with stacks of Aspiring Champions. Bad in autoresolve but amazing in manual fights.
@@TheMagicalPinata
I was playing Radious and Festus had them WITH regeneration and the mod making elite units stronger as well as Festus buffs and oh my god 2 regiments slaughtered like 10 of mine and I had to micro really hard to win that, my units were of course far lower tier as well but yeah it was crazy
I renember back then in WH2 times how terrible of a unit they were though, used to be the absolute weakest garbage on the planet so im glad that they are now proper
Always love the "Who's the best" videos you make. May I ask what made you chose these anti-large units from factions over other factions? is it purely because they are all some of the best?
For example empire halberds wouldnt hold a candle to any of these so there was no reason to include them, same for great weapon grave guard etc. The units in the video are all in the top bracket of cost for anti large infantry, bringing a unit from a roster that doesnt have anything anti large that isnt half the price of these wouldnt even have been competitive
@@ME-ki7vq what about asrai speardancers. Those seem like they would be at least on par with slayers in this sort of fight.
@@sassyviking6003 Dragonback slayers are still solidly more expensive than them and were themselves the cheapest unit
@@ME-ki7vq Yeah. He seems to have made good picks with the exception of using the Dragonback Slayers over Giant Slayers.
@@sassyviking6003 Far too squishy IMO.... which seems weird to say when you've got Slayers on the field lol. But they just don't compare.
Would’ve been cool to have a graph for avg HP remaining for the units as well. Would help knowing if they’re going to have enough HP to help in the rest of the battle
Fantastic video as always
Nope, your opinion can be thrown in the trash apparently
I love that you had them go against what they are meant to fight.
Can't wait for you to redo all of your other best unit videos ;)
I'd have loved to see how the Severed Claw would fare in this type of comp given their very low model count
Yes please someone test it!
Don't they have perfect charge defence as well? Can't remember how good the normal Halberdiers' defence is but I'm sure the Severed Claw has a special buff to themselves.
Giant slayers would be a better fit, and dragonback slayers don´t have fire attacks, they give -20% fire resistance, so they didn´t have advantage against minotaurs
9:50 no, they give them weakness to fire, but they don't have fire attacks.
Yep the result comes about from the low armor of the minos and the extremely high base damage of the slayers. No damage increase necessary to explain the result.
I love this type of content. It reminds of my medival 2 and rome 2 custom battles sending units against each others just to enjoy the slaughtering and to see who is better.
Wondering how the bretonian beastslayers of bastonne would have performed.
Please more olympics
Good video. Harmony bonus aside, I'm not surprised to see CDG underperform in a contest of damage dealing, since their only job is to hold the line while their factions ranged units handle the damage dealing.
They have decent damage, but they are a cheaper unit costing 1050. Putting them vs chosen which cost 1600 and not giving them harmony is why they look bad. The Dune Dragons should have been used, seeing as tho he decided to upgrade dwarfs and skaven.
Great video as always but why you didn't take giant slayers for the dwarfs?
I think it was a rare Zerkovich mental slip
Moments like your cat pushing the mic away is why I love your channel so much
Good job with the creativity. I didn't think I'd ever see a competition like this, but you proved me wrong!
Hate to be that guy, Bloodcrushers*. Skullcrushers have mortal riders!
Indeed! And in the case of phoenix guards who have physical resistance, fighting skullcrushers would probably have gone better.
I guess I'll write "use units with physical attacks" on a piece of paper ready for the recycling.
It actually matters a lot. Tzeech had a 20% damage bonus
Thank you so much for this comparison. Even when the TWWH 2 was released, I wrote under the videos where TH-camrs compare units that it's stupid to pit anti-large against each other, and they should arrange a competition to kill monsters. But you're the first one to do it all this time. The only remark is that it would be nice to show the remaining HP units to better reveal its effectiveness. Let's say the temple guards are slowly killing monsters, but maybe they have a lot of hp left, which makes them a good defenders? Perhaps even better than others? Or can they fight longer and take on more large units? Showing the remaining amount of hp would help answer these questions.
Google Translator helped me with this message.
I figured Depth Guard would do well because those ocean encounters show you who's who. DG always stands last. Great vid! Maybe my fave so far in this genre.
YES! Thank you dude! So pumped. Love this series
I've always loved this series! Since the anti-large role is often more about screening and holding vs pure killing speed I personally think that how much health the unit has remaining is overall more important than time to kill. Especially for SEMs where you just need the unit to hold while your ranged blast them down, etc. But then I realized that's partly reflected in the results since the units that keep their models alive longer (like Tzeentch chosen) also output more damage in general so it's probably balanced out somewhat.
Also, every time I see Cathay in these test I think it would be great to see their harmony bonus accounted for by parking a sky junk overhead without firing since that really their "ideal" stat line. Not that it would have made much of a difference, I just feel bad for the poor gits 😂
Great stuff as usual!
Good points though. It worked out pretty well this on all these, but yes you definitely need them to make it through with plenty of health. Most of the time, these elite units will be outnumbered by the enemies you need them to kill, so you want them to make it though multiple units. I just spent quite a while with Be'lakor cutting through the Sylvanian end game crisis and those halberd units are critical against all the big stuff the vamps bring. Plus, in that area you also have to fight the dwarf crisis and some of the wood elves all at the same time. Halberds are only slightly less important against the latter, and aren't useless against the stubbies. Better to have if it's halberds vs. great weapons in your armies. If you can take both then great.
I mean, it's a 1v1 test. If we adjusted for cost the Celestial Guard would often get a sixth unit etc for being so cheap.
I wonder how doing this test with some archers sitting behind the celestial dragon guard to give harmony buff would change their performance. Harmony buff is pretty huge for Cathay.
This is what I’ve been waiting for. Purpose driven testing.
I guess the Cathay unit did worst, cause they got the Harmony bonus working for them in an actual battle.
Would have been curious to see how it goes with a Yin unit standing nearby
Your commentaries are actually why i watch your videos.
I would have liked that you could elaborate more in the end how unit size, frenzy, charge reflection and physical resistance affects the results. I was quite impress with the Skaven
I recently found out that there is a hidden mass multiplier with regards to the amount of ranks that a unit has.
You can see how few council guard get knocked back compared to the depth guard, depth guard are heavier.
I believe the mass cap is at 8 ranks deep, so if you have to take a charge, getting a thick unit is recommended.
It's a good day when Zerkovich posts
The council guard suffered the in the first 2 rounds purely due to the fact their numbers can't be utilised properly in a proper fight they'd surround their enemies and attack from all sides
Finally, I was waiting for this video. Great job. Although, you forgot to mention that the Phoenix Guard have a good amount of physical resistance as well, which is probably why they did quite good.
This was so great!! Would love to see more tests like this.
I'm really glad they had to deal with a daemon and a mortal unit to see whether units' magical attack made them more valuable overall.
3:39 I love how they fuckin' leap at the chargin Skullcrushers. Godspeed you little madlads.
I think having a versus competition 'in the traditional style' would be a good supplement to this test. It would help show which units are more versatile and which are the most situational and only good versus large.
Agree with this given there are many times you antilarge will have to fight regular infantry. Chosen of Tzeentch probably still win though, since barrier is that strong.
No harmony bonus really puts the dragon guard at a disadvantage
I want to point out 2 things in this test.
1. The dwarven giant slayers have more Ap as far as i remember so they would probably do better overall in these tests.
2. Choosing a regenerating large unit is somewhat unfair to the infantry with lower attack/damage as they have to fight longer anyway and the regen just drags it out further.
Awesome vid. Really fun to see this play out.
Great vid and commentary, game graphics are looking sweet on your setup
I love seeing the Dread Saurian
Just picked up TWW3 on sale and then found your channel. I really enjoy your vids, insights, tactics, and humor. This is by far the best Royal Rumble vid. The amount of time and testing is great. Bless your cotton socks (if you wear any.)
Fell in love with the black guards of Naggarond on my first ever campaign which was malekith on wh2.
But no harmony buff or ror for Cathay? I cry foul!
Temple Guard definitely aren't living up to their tabletop and lore reputation, they just take too long to kill things, sad as a LM player. Celestial Guard seems a bit weaksauce as well, though they probably are meant to be given the whole combined arms shtick Cathay has across the board.
Not to mention all of their weird buff alignments in campaign. How they're technically saurus but get access to none of the heaps of saurus bonuses the game gives you. Honestly I feel like they should be a bit beefier and have at least a melee attack buff. Like I know their attack cycle is faster than other units and their stats being lower is an attempt to compensate but it doesn't quite work.
@@dyer4677 Right? I've pointed out those sorts of issues when discussing the TG on the forums multiple times. Besides them being lowballed in general, I think a big contributing issue is the way anti-large and anti-infantry units have their base attack values nerfed to account for the bonus they receive, just makes them artificially weaker than they should be in non counter match-ups and only serves to mitigate whatever bonus they do get in the first place. Inconsistencies like this plague multiple other unit types in the game as well and coming from the perspective of an older TW player as well, I hate it.
@@dyer4677 it's because they are in between normal and anti-large, whereas almost every other faction has elite normal infantry and elite anti-large infantry seperately.
@@walter1383 How else would you do it? Giving a matchup-specific bonus without nerfing base stats just makes them unbalanced.
@@FrenkieWest32 Base stats intact with a smaller overall bonus for the relevant match up. Keeps them just as viable in their role as a counter without artificially nerfing them in all other situations. Polearms in general are done incredibly dirty in modern TW iterations.
Love the video Zerkovich, but I do think another measure of BEST would be how much health the anti-large has at the end of the fight, the way you're doing it favors units with high attack slightly. Obviously for the fights where the anit-large don't survive, then it's clear the attack is important to finish the target (can't just be 100% defense).
I'm still learning warhammer and videos like this are very helpful for noobs like me.
Are things to far gone to take an old fool under ones wing?
My most expensive large fighting unit is always the siege engine I forgot to protect.
Props to the Depth Guard for doing better than I thought they would
Thank you for saying the explicit length of time a charge bonus lasts. It’s surprising how hard it is to find that out.
I wouldn't mind seeing anti-large vs anti-large with your commentary, but I just like watching your vids so I'll take whatever you put up.
Great content, also excellent commentary, Zerkovich seemed to be in a good mood lol
The only change I reckon is the dread saurian test could be done by averaging out the numbers, just to make it clearer.
I will go chuck the notes in the bin :P
22:36 "Archeon wills it!" LMAO
I actually wonder how much better the Celestial Dragon guards would have done with their harmony bonus activated
cavalry test:
I'd like to adjust the ranks with some opinions, Celestial Dragon Guard are by far the cheapest of the units here which makes their lower performance far more acceptable considering their foe's almost 500 gold difference. They're more valuable than the video suggests.
The Depth Guard on the other hand almost had a complete leak, and in unisolated conditions this would've caused their foe to easily dump into the backlines where their damage matters while the depth guard were able to tank it, and spank it. They were not able to stop it. Which makes them far less valuable.
Council Guard performed... about as well as a Skaven unit can be expected... terrible performance but the best Skaven will be able to give.
Slayers are garbage.
With Squad monsters it seems that the ones that can deal the most damage (since it's easier to surround) Pair off better defensively. The more attack, the better the outcome.
I admit I didn't expect any Dread Saurian to rout, that was a very nice surprise there, kudos also to the rattos who did better than I expected
I love this method way more than the previous one
It is so painful seeing all those anti-large units taking a full charge head on, with a swinging or some fancy spinning attack animation. You have a pointy stick in your hand, there is a ton of flesh and steel running at you, what you do?
"- I SWING IT"
"- I DO A FANCY TWIRL AROUND IN A TIGHT FORMATION"
"- I SIMPLY STAND AND WATCH"
NO! You put its blunt end into the ground and hold its pointy end towards the charge! Do NOT hold it behind you and try to swing that Khorne beast away from yourself with a buckler like that one Cathay warrior.
Honestly, where are the good ol' pikemen with their proper spear walls?
on Launch, Tzeentch had almost no good anti-large units compared to the others now they 1 of the best if not the best.
It sure makes me happy to see so many staunch lines of spears.
I was hoping to see this sort of thing. Thanks!
I would love to see losses/ damage taken in these as well, not that it should change the competition outcome but just that it's fun to think about
Love your stuff
Was genuinely surprised at how well Depth Guard did against cav. They might be my new go to for fighting Brettonia as the Vampire Coast
Elite halberd unit is good agaist cav, crazy right?
Blood! BLOODCRUSHERS! Skullcrushers for the Skullthrone, BLOODCRUSHERS FOR THE BLOODGOD! Ahem.
I know that its super late, but I think that it would be interesting to repeat this test after all the updates that have taken place. Could you unclude the RORs of all the units that you did foe this video vs Shredder of Lustria? That would be super fun.
16:41 Slayer in the lower right side of the screen got yeeted into orbit.
Very informative. Thank you, Zerk.
The celestial dragon guard needs to have ranged units near them for the harmony maybe. The harmony stuff is a huge part of the faction so I’m not surprised the units underperform in isolation. Maybe you could have some ranged just looking the other way nearby to give them that buff…
Given them an external buff wouldn't be a fair test
@@the_dropbear4392 no, but it would be a more accurate test of their ability in battle.
@@the_dropbear4392 the dark elves got the external buff during the last test so I don’t necessarily agree but to each is own.
CDG didn't really underperform though. They're the cheapest unit by a fair margin at 1050 so doing the worst here makes sense.
@dac314
By that logic, lizardmen use monsters so a true test of a temple guards ability is while attacking in pair with a dinosaur
When I tested celestial dragon guards with harmony right after formation attack was buffed, they beat elite bloodthirsters charging headon. It was just regular harmony too, no lords nearby.
Before the nerfs to formation attack 2 peasant spears would beat skarbrand due to harmony and formation attack.
Cathay should be done again...their Yin/Yang balance with an archer class will make them do so much better!
I do have to ask, what about the wood elves, greenskins, empire and vampire counts? I know not as amazing normally as the high and dark elves but still useful. I've used the last 2 to hold lines against several foes and typically didn't do too bad.
I do wish Cathay had some better infantry. The celestial dragon guard are the top unit and the best sword infantry are jade warriors. I know they are a defensive faction and thus have amazing ranged option, celestial Crossbows and crane gunners, but still we need good infantry.
Answer simple - cost, they have not chosen anti large units that cost like others candidates.
"Infantry units that suck" seems to be a common theme among all the human factions in Warhammer.
@@kubaGR8 Tsar guard are pretty elite, but when most of the human factions are prissy simps for ze Lady playing hide the lance or rely more on gunpowder than a strong right arm it makes sense there's only one human faction that has good melee soldiers
@@callumcochrane7759 Ah, that one always made me wonder
How come Kislev is the only human nation that can afford to deck their troops out in armour I stg
On a meta level, I think part of the reason Empire, Brets, etc. Are underwhelming compared to others is they have always meant to be "vanilla" and give us (players) perspective of having to fight literally any battle in Warhammer. It makes for easier drama if the odds are against you by default. If there were Imperial Chosen fighting against marauders all the time, it's not as exciting.
You see it in 40k with Astartes. Fighting against anything that isn't another atsrates is often boring, or to just show how badass they are.
I think the main reason good humans are weaker has most to do with the aesthetics of the cultures they are based on being rooted in reality, vs. The various fantastical enemies they encounter. You put the best Landschnecht in the worls against a 7 foot tall semi-immortal brute in chaos armor, and we probably don't need to bet the outcome.
Shouldn't the man rippers be here too though? And instead of the DB slayers the giant slayers?
"he has no socks" yea trolls steal your socks....but only the left ones .
i would be curious to see this now as, specially ones like the stormvermin halberds, there have been quite a few changes. The difference could highlight how much stuff has changed in a way.
Damn the dwarves grudge is strong. That wee slayer that get decapitated at 3:50 still had enough in him to do a final sweeping attack as he falls dead 🤘
Muscle memory, literally. 🤔
Wouldn't you keep them in a box formation to better negate the charge? I could have sworn you did a video about getting the best out of anti large infantry by keeping them in a box formation. If you want to retest😅
I would love to see how all of these hold against war Mammoths. I think they are bigger threat then Dread Saurian. But it was nice to see Big lizard as well.
Aktshually, regeneration does help depth guard with dishing out more damage. If they lose less models, they have more models that can deal damage.
Look up Lanchester's square law.
Love the Sports Saturday presentation :)
One thing i got to say tough for example the dragon Celestial Dragon Guard are on a back leg to start with since they dont have the Ying/Yang bounses.
What is the charge bonus of your cat? That's the real question here at 3:00 .
Can we get a list of the units? Comparing the recruitment and upkeep cost, while seeing how well they did in the tournament.
Wow...I thought the black guard was better than the Phoenix because they're immune to psychology.
Amazing video, thanks
Phoenix guard have suck good leadership that it doesn't really matter
@@the_dropbear4392 good point
lizard on lizard action... my favorite :D
Nice work :)
3:40 perfect example of small enteties getting +600 mass when bracing (immovable). It's not just the charge defence playing a role there.
However I am unshure if the "bracing_immovable_by_small_entety_mass, 600" rule is a flat value or a % multiplier. (TWW stats /kw/rules for ref).
I can't help but wonder if this plays into the Ranged AI bug (Is it fixed yet?), where they chose to brace vs large charcters under X amout of mass, rather than fire at will on hard+ difficulity. Witch turns into some pretty dumb AI behavior.
Didn't expect Celestial Guard to fail. But actually makes sense since they're not only anti-large but also got shields - so balance must be preserved.
Harmony buff makes a difference. Kinda unfair to not give it to them.
Too many variables in this, Tzeench and Slayers only did well cuse they had magic and fire attacks... So if you had chosen enemies that would not have problem with magic or fire they would be lower on the list. Also a unit is never only used against the type it is strongest so you should also match the anti large vs order anti large, to see how they fare against their nemesis and as an overall unit...
As some units will be amazing against the type they are strong, but will suck against everything else!
Counterpoint. You forgot the greatest anti-large unit in the game, Khorrok's Manrippers, the only Anti-Large infantry the beastmen have.
Nothing says anti-large like MANRIPPERS!
But.. But they're supposed to rip men, not monsters and cav, it's in the name!
@@quickdraw6893 Yeah that'd make sense wouldn't it?
That's about what I expected. The Phoenix Guard aren't the kings of damage and their biggest benefit is that they won't run until you have like three models left. The changes to Prowess have done well for them since now at least they keep the good stats much longer.
I love these types of videos
How come you didn't use the Severed Claw for Tzeentch seeing as you're allowing ROR?