I’m not a classical music connoisseur, but when I listen to you speaking about it with such knowledge and passion, you are slowly making me an adept of classical music. Thank you.
Happy New Year Mr. Harley Lovegrove! I love Beethoven! About the 3rd. I have listened to a few renditions of different conductors but I like Paul Kletzky with Czech Philarmonic. I don't know why, but my preferred Beethoven symphony is the 5th by Paul Klezky with Czech Philarmonic (Supraphon) but also Gunter Wand with NDR Sinfonieorchestre (RCA) and Erich Kleiber with Concertgebouworkest (Decca).
Thank you for your kind wishes! My very best wishes to you and your loved ones too. And thanks for the tips. It’s hard to explain why we prefer one symphony more than another. My mother brought me up to try as best I could to understand and to explain what I like and why. All these years later, I am still struggling 😉. Kleiber, Decca and Beethoven, a wonderful combination! Happy New Year to you and all who read this message.
I've been a lover of the Eroica since a music appreciation course at Cornell taught by Don Randel. I was driving somewhere recently and the radio was tuned to the classical station, and I usually switch over to some hard rock, but Eroica was playing and the performance was just staggeringly engaging. Turned out it was the Pittsburgh Symphony under the direction of Manfred Honeck. This recording is highly recommended! And thanks, Harley, for a great exposition, as usual.
Phenomenal video. Maybe my favourite of Harvey’s to date. I love jumping between vinyl versions. Thank you Harvey. Entertaining and I learned something along the way. I only have a Bernstein recording of #3 so hearing these different versions makes me want to go learn more.
"I truly appreciate the depth of detail and keen observations you share. Taking the time to demonstrate these excerpts from various recordings allows us to fully immerse ourselves and grasp the unique decisions that conductors make in their interpretation. Your insights have undoubtedly helped me develop a more discerning ear and a profound love for the music at a much deeper level. I am aware that preparing these videos requires considerable effort, so I wanted to extend a heartfelt thank you for your dedication and hard work."
Thanks for the amazing presentation ,it’s called Eroica for a reason I have the record printed by Deutsche grammophon, 1977 recording conducted by Karajan,hardly played, which I found some 15 years ago in a flea market for some ridiculous amount of money before owning a turntable became a thing I do not have any formal education in classic music, so your explanations make me enjoy listening to it even greater Thanks!❤
Many thanks for this Harley , i loved it . I have loved this piece for a long time first hearing in my early teens . Listening to you i have learned much more about it . Great stuff.
This is a truly wonderful series Harley. As only a casual listener to Classical music (Classicfm in the UK) my eyes have been opened to a richness of music that I was hitherto unaware. Your enthusiasm and knowledge are infectious, and have caused me to seek out more and more Classical music in my leisure-time listening. Keep 'em coming please.
Thank you so much for your kind appreciation. I will do my best. It won’t always be classical music, but the next piece will be Schubert’s piano sonata No. 21 D960… maybe you know it already?
Thank you so much. I enjoyed your comments and the way you exposed them. The third is my symphony per se; is like to see the storm and the tornado coming toward me by the power of his genius, but without destruction in between; it is Beethoven who comes to give us peace, strength and a different kind of energy I have a marvelous version; it is not Karajan’s; don’t have the name of the conductor at hand Thanks again Greetings from Costa Rica
I really enjoyed this video. Ur knowledge, passion and appreciation of the 'genius of Beethoven' makes u my new favorite listening buddy. Thanks for dancing with me to this
Charming presentation Mr Lovegrove, Thank you! I'd been procrastinating on watching so I could give my full attention on the TV and stereo. Finally made time this morning. Bravo! (No question the Sibelius speakers are full bodied in their presentation.... I could see and hear those tiny drivers bass response;-) I've had the DG77 Karajan on cd so long that the foam protection rotted away. Streaming the 66 right now. Impressive! Very glad for Qobuz to make this fantastic music so easily accessible. Thanks for the enthusiastic reintroduction. I'll be on a Beethoven kick for a while again 🎶😊🎶
I have von Karajan's recording of the 3rd and while I'm not a classicist, this is one of of my loved pieces of music. I'll liston to the others. Much Thanks Hartley.
Thanks for this very nice video. You have the right sort of passion to convey the beauty of classical music. It reminds me of my classes on conservatory.
Harley it is inspiring to hear your passionate description of Beethoven music that I totally share while listening to it … Best regards from Chile , South America
Marvelous. So excited I just now discovered your videos! I’ve loved classical music ever since a boy of 14 and go to lots of concerts here and in Europe. Thanks so much for your insights.
I'm a huge Beethoven fan. I adored the introduction, it should be written down somewhere for all to read. You could have gone on for much much longer comparing the records, I would have really enjoyed that! there is so much to talk about when it comes to the creativity, the different versions (I literally went to eBay to try to find the records you have!). The finale, is something amazing and mind blowing for the time. No one could understand what was happening, especially the musicians on the first performance. He leads to a grand finale that ends up not being the "real finale" and then ends with the fragment you shared. The real story behind the finale is that Beethoven loved the theme on which he develops the entire movement, he had used it many years in the past on another piece called "The Creatures of Prometheus". He took the theme to a whole different level as a mature composer (he was much younger at the time he did Prometheus"). Also, some musicologist believe, the chose to use that "silly" and "playful" theme for the finale (which has nothing to do with the grandeur and drama the audience has been listening to so far) as a joke, and that the 3 chord blasting in fortissimo after the theme is presented is basically Beethoven's laughter: Ha Ha Ha! Love your equipment! PS: I just bought on eBay the 1953's recording by Toscanini!
Thank you very much for your kind appreciation and very interesting contribution to the topic. I always find it difficult to know how much leave out. The goal is to introduce people to the work, that might not ever have heard it but not to exclude those who love it. Plus additional comments such as yours, enrich the experience for the channel. Thanks again, H
Dear Harley, thank you so much for this fantastic video, your insights, your knowledge and passion. Same for your session on Sibelius‘ 3rd Symphony. Excellent. Thank you.
Hello Harley. Two things, first, the pipe organ company I have worked for over 34 years now, are employed by the Boston Symphony Orchestra during the summer when they are at Tanglewood, Lenox MA. Shed organ under our care and the portative organ for the Bach Cantatas in Ozawa Hall. We tune the instruments to the BSO standard of A=441 ! Secondly, as long time subscriber of the Digital Concert Hall (Berlin) I have watched all the Von Karjan movies they offer from the archives. It is well known that Karjan was very much into audio tech back in the day. His good friend Gunter was instrumental in engineering as HVK requested. Can you say MULTI CHANNEL microphones (up to 65!!) 😊 No wonder those recordings sound so different. He wanted to control all the individual sections of the orchestra broken down to the maximum degree for complete control room style mixdowns. You must have read all about this history. HVK was also very much into the digital/CD tech before he passed. Thanks for your presentation as always.
Like some others, I am not an authority on classical music, but I do enjoy a lot of popular classics. However, based on your obvious excitement, I have been listening to the Karajan 1963 recording streamed from Tidal. Wow, the dynamics are so exciting, I am really enjoying it. I look forward to future recommendations. Thanks Harley for sharing your knowledge, it is truly appreciated.
certainly one of the most passionate of all symphonies! and after you explain the context it becomes more enlightening! and i must say your presentation is knowledgeable and exciting .the way you were enjoying the symphony ,i felt you could even get up and conduct or dance for that matter. on a serious note thanx so much for making these wonderful videos. god bless!
Thanks for the video. This was one of the set pieces I studied for O level music back in the mid 70’s - I remember buying the ‘77 vinyl version a couple of years later! I’m sure I still have it - I need to dig it out and take a listen!
Fabulous work, my friend!!! I love this video, your explanation and your generosity showing and sharing yours recordings. Thank you so much. And, I've read about 432hz. It seems having real psicolgist effects.
Thank you. Indeed, there is a lot written about 432 tuning, but I do not find it ever being a ‘norm’ but a preference by some and the general understanding that in the 18th and early 19th century, most ensembles and orchestras tuned to a lower pitch. Glad you enjoy the video.
It has been a pleasure to listen to this talk. I have learned so much. As you were playing the different versions I could pick out the the differences that you pointed out. Thank you. Looking forward to another video like this. Maybe Mahler’s Symphony No 1.
So glad you enjoyed it. Thanks too for your suggestion. I will of course bear it in mind. But perhaps I should stay with the 3’s and go for his third, after all, I think it is the longest symphony ever written? 😀
Thank you so much for this, particularly because Beethoven's 3rd was the very first Classical LP I ever purchased on my own. Being an early "flower child" and young "hippie" (I had been listening almost exclusively to popular and mainly Rock and Roll i.e., the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Jimi Hendrix, Cream and The Who). But after reading that my "heroes" like Pete Townsend and Frank Zappa thought very highly of/ and that young people NEEDED to broaden they're listening habits by hearing Classical music. As I've stated my first Classical LP was Beethoven's 3rd. Not knowing much of anything about it. I walked into my local music store in Charleston, SC and picked the Eroica as recorded by Karl Bohm and the VPO... I was SO blown away by not only the music itself...but the quality of the recording as well! That it started a lifelong love affair not only with Classical music. But also, the love of audio and recording in general. Just a few years later my older brother who had started working at a well-known recording studio, The Record Plant Recording Studios in Los Angeles. After moving back to LA (where I was born) I also began working there and rapidly emersed myself in Classical Music, through radio and buying vinyl. I was privileged to work with Frank Zappa there. Many years later even though my main interest were Art and Photography, in the early 2000's I was asked to come and work at my local Tower Records store in Torrance, CA because of my knowledge. Now at 69 years old I'm retired and enjoy watching your TH-cam channel. But I think Bohm's recording (mid 70's) is superior and I've never quite found a better version. Which I have a theory about, which is. Many times, the first time you hear a particular work. It will leave an indelible impression that will stay with you for years until you hear a definably BETTER version. Best regards and keep up the great work. Thank you!
Thank you David. Thank you for your kind words and wonderful back story. It’s much appreciated. Karl Bohm was one of my favourites (for Beethoven) too. Did you ever hear Klemperer conduct Beethoven? He took everything so slow 😉
David, thanks for your story. Given your passion, I'll make a request of you. If you use a CD player as a source, I'll highly recommend the Pittsburgh Symphony's version of Beethoven's 3rd. They're recorded by Reference Recordings and the production quality, along with the orchestra's performance under Manfred Honeck are fantastic! Their partnership has resulted in multiple Grammy nominations and wins. You'll enjoy it!
@@PearlAcoustics Thank You! Do you listen to any of the Chando's recordings of the Royal Scottish National Orchestra with Neeme Jarvi...Most excellent Orchestral recordings, His Shostakovich cycle is amazing!
This is what as always done my head in with vinyl, the crackles and pops, no matter how well you look after it, it spoils the music. Give me SACD, Blu Ray or CD any day of the week. I personally don't get the vinyl revival, we should never go backwards.
Harnoncourt’s recordings are definitely on the top of my Beethoven list. And the 3rd symphony is my favorite. I’ve only played the 5th and the 7th in the viola-section, but those two are fantastic as well. Dudamel did a fine interpretation of the Eroica when he was chief conductor in Gothenburg with the GSO.
@@7649angel for me it would be ‘The Tempest sonata and his opus 130, string quartet. If only one symphony, I would take the ninth, as it would remind me of all the others.
Dear Harvey , Also I wanted your take on Schubert’s Death and the Maidan quartet I have bought 8 cd’s few of them are amazing specially on the speaker Sounds like shaking the earth and so intense. As always thankful to what you’re doing for us Kind regards Atri
Firstly, it’s an incredible piece, as you already know. I don’t have a favourite version but it would make an interesting talk for the future. Have you heard the Takacs or Quartetto Italiano? In fact, my next video will be on Schubert - his piano sonata No 21 D960.
@@PearlAcoustics Takacs or Quartetto Italiano , well i only heard this from you first time ever will have a look for Schubert piano sonata .. Thanks Harvey
Thanks for this! I too love the '77 version, in fact I believe it's his BEST. As you say, the dynamic range is through the roof. :) Haven't heard the '85, but now I'm curious. But the '77 (as a set) will probably remain the ultimate fusion of conductorial might married to sonic power; everything came together for that one. I think one of the reasons the 80's version didn't get much acclaim is because Karajan had haters at that point and they said he being self-indulgent for re-re-re-recording the cycle. Also, they say the digital technology wasn't up to snuff, but I hear no evidence of that in your LP. BTW, I wish they'd have players seated on terraced risers like in the video! It creates a literal WALL OF SOUND. Is there some reason why they don't? I mean if it would sound better than why not? I know some conductors, like Currentzis, has his orchestra play standing up. But terraced risers would be even better, whether standing or sitting! :D
Thanks for your comment and very kind appreciation. To reply to your point on terraces in concerts. In fact, in a way many orchestras do. Ie the audience is banked up and the orchestra is often placed on more than one level with the percussion, higher up and to the rear. The sound of violins snd violas travels upwards so in fact they need to be as low as possible. A wall of sound, as in HVK’s film, would not work in reality, unless the listener was at least half way up in front of it. (I hope I am making sense)? Nice idea though!
@@PearlAcoustics I didn't realize violins and violas travel up sound-wise. Yet I don't hear any degrading of sound when orchestras play standing up. Also, didn't Mahler instruct his horn players to stand up during a crucial section? Presumably the brass is better when belted out into our faces? :)
@@NN-df7hl hi Indeed, many string ensembles play standing up. The musicians can move more freely, the height difference is small but they can also see each item and the conductor much easier, I believe. But I will check with a friend of mine who leads a string ensemble and they always play standing up. The brass standing up allows their sound to carry right to the back of the hall (and it also helps not to blast out the ears of those directly in front! 😀
Now, at min nr. 24 on this video, when you put back the vinyl for the 3rd movement, even compressed as it is through YT, the music comes to life and this is what I mean when I say that music is better enjoyed through vinyl.
I am more a fan of 20th-century classical composers but have to agree that Beethoven always stirs emotions as only the greats can. Fabulous 'talk' on that composition, and its recordings!
Excellent 👍 I too, did a vídeo about Beethoven 3😊. He was the heavy metal rebel of his time. The first musician that didn't depend on the church or royals for money 🤑💰
It's nice to see your passion for music. It would be nice if all speaker builders loved music this much. And about the tempo of the music in the later recordings... it is a well-known fact that the later versions of the recordings of almost all great conductors are much slower than the earlier ones - Bernstein's recordings of Mahler's symphonies are a good example of this.
@@PearlAcoustics The Berlin Philharmonic has always had a high pitch too. Orchestras never really took much notice of any international pitch standard.
Thanks for the video, One of my go to pieces and used so well in Clockwork Orange - Stanley Kubrick is the 9th. I'm going to listen again to my CD version soon with a new set of ears.....
There is a scene in Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho, towards the end of the movie, where Vera Miles, is poking around Norman Bate's room in the creepy house on the hill that overlooks the Bates Motel, there is a one or two frame shot looking down on a phonograph record player and, of course is is Beethoven's 3rd on 78, I believe conducted by Toscanini. I do not know why, but this stuck with me and when I saw this movie, it took me a while to gather the courage to hear it for the first time.
@@PearlAcoustics I am not a fan of Karajan. Pretty much the only DG recordings I do not care for, are his. My favorite recording of Beethoven's Third is a cd I own from the L'Oiseau-Lyre label by the Academy of Ancient Music, conducted by Christopher Hogwood. On original instruments, this is a raw and passionate performance, a gripping performance. When I was a kid and saw Psycho, in a real movie theater, the movie freaked me out, and still does, one of the best and my favorite horror movies of all time. Bernard Herrmann's score is awesome, too. Not having heard much Beethoven then, and certainly not the Third, I thought that Hitchcock's reference to this piece must mean, this is a pretty scary piece of music. Intrigued, I sought this piece out and borrowed the record from my local library (can't remember the recording, probably Karajan!) and was expecting some secret, satanic horror crazy symphony. Well, Beethoven's Eroica is not that. To me it is truly an amazing, revolutionary work, I love this piece and I am about to drop my Hogwood reading into the old cd player now. I look forward to all your videos, keep them coming, please.
_Userles trivia 1:_ Karajan's 1982-1985 set was the first music I ever bought. _Userles trivia 2:_ The 'wrong/false-note' horn entry, to me, sounded neither wrong nor too early (although I strongly suspect that's down to my poor muscicianship!). Thanls for sharing.
My favourite interpretation of the 3rd is by Roy Goodman with the Hanover Band for Nimbus Records. Von Karajan’s rendition feels to me glossed over and heavy handed. The video emphasises those aspects.
Karajan is always one of the best choices for Beethoven's symphonies, and I use it as a reference. It is my first choice, anyway. I also like Leonard Berstein and Romanian conductor George Georgescu (1887-1964, he also distinguished himself by leading the Berlin Philharmonic in 1918).
Once long ago I was directed to Furtwängler as pretty much the definitive interpreter of Beethoven. I know he recorded the 3rd several times. Do you have views on this?
Hi, I have heard his recordings but it was a while ago. I agree, in his time, he was considered the definitive interpreter. But, times change, fashions in interpretation change - and recording techniques allow for a different emphasis on dynamics and tonality from the orchestra
Can't thank you enough for this wonderful video. Oddly enough for me, I think the 1953 recording is the most preferred. But to be honest, Karajan usually loses in that decision making moment of who gets heard in my listening space. That honour, for Beethoven, is Furtwangler. Oh, I know the recordings are lacking in modern dynamics, but oh...the excitement and magic that Furtwangler extricates from the Vienna Phil. is breathtaking, and leaves Karajan as just another baton beater. Not to dismiss Herbert entirely ( I think his Sibelius amazing, equally his Bruckner) but Beethoven? For my Beethoven moments, Wilhem rules. :)
Thank you very much for your very kind appreciation. I can understand where you are coming from, Furtwangler was always the conductor who set the standard. As for Sibelius, even though I prefer other conductors, there is no doubt in my mind that we have HVK to thank for keeping him in popularity. Without HVK, Sibelius could have been forgotten by now.
@@PearlAcoustics The NYPhil recording is now available on ‘Zubin Mehta: The Complete Columbia Recordings’ CD box set from Sony. Warner music has also released a ‘Complete Zubin Mehta’ recordings CD box set. In addition Decca has also released a ‘Zubin Mehta: The Complete LA Philharmonic Recordings’ CD box set. Zubin Mehta studied music in India and Austria. He’s an accomplished conductor of Mahler, Bruckner, Verdi, Mozart, Richard Strauss, etc. His recordings of Mahler symphony 2 and Bruckners 8 & 9 all with the Vienna Philharmonic are still available on the Decca Legends recordings series. An outstanding conductor in everyway.
@@rags015 thanks very much! I seem to remember that Zubi Mehta conducted BBC Proms concert I attended, back when I was a music student in London. I can’t remember what he conducted. It might have been Mahler 2. He certainly was very highly regarded (and obviously still is). Thanks for the reminder and the suggestions
For an in-depth analysis of the Eroica, let me suggest both Jan Swafford's terrific Beethoven biography (Beethoven: Anguish and Triumph) and Robert Greenberg's analysis for Wondrium / The Great Courses (as part of his larger Beethoven Symphonies lecture series). Swafford, in particular, brings home the connection between Beethoven's use of the finale of his Creatures of Prometheus as the core motif for the entire piece - which, in itself, kicks off the 'heroic' period in Beethoven's music. Beethoven begins composing the Eroica in the aftermath of his recognition that his hearing is failing - and he can imagine no worse fate for a musician than to be losing the one thing that is most closely associated with his art. (As an aside, as a long-time audiophile now suffering from tinnitus, I can easily identify with Beethoven's intense frustration at having this, of all the five senses, be the one to fail. And I am positive that, among audiophiles of a certain age, I am not alone!). This Promethean theme is obviously dear to Beethoven, a fact we can know because he uses it not only in the symphony but also in a brilliant set of piano variations, the Variations and Fugue in E-Flat, Op. 35, written at roughly the same time. For me, the Eroica is Beethoven's deeply personal musical distillation of what Joseph Campbell would later describe as the Hero's Journey, interpolated for his time, place, and mode of artistic expression.
Would like to endorse your comments about swofford’s biography. It’s also available as an audible book, which I listened to over the course of many hours walking my dog.
Very interesting. One thing you have to take into account is that we have three different recording venues here. 1953 is from Kingsway Hall in London, 1963 is Jesus Christus Kirche in Berlin and the later two are from the Berlin Philharmonic Hall. Karajan's last recording of the nine is not a huge success except for the Eroica which is stunning. My favorite of the Karajan cycles is the 1977 as I find it more extreme and original than the famous 1963 cycle. The box set, 1977, was released in a limited edition in leather signed by Karajan. I had that and it was stolen from me. Some years ago I wrote an article comparing complete sets of the nine and my top three were Haitink and LSO, Karajan 1977 and George Szell with Cleveland. Also, both the Karajan 1963 and 1977 sets are available on Blu-ray Audio. But as I said, the Karajan 1985 Eroica is absolutely fantastic and not to be missed.
Sorry to hear that your signed copy was stolen. I too possess a copy but I strongly suspect that the Karajan signature is in mechanical pen as the signatures in each copy show no variation
What an enjoyable vid, thanks. Re the pitch - of course everyone tunes to the oboe, so might the temperature/humidity of the day have affected the oboe's behavior(?) Interestingly, Cherubini was cited as a little recognised but significant influence and precursor of Beethoven's orchestral style in some respects by my teacher at RCM. I can't remember the extracts played - only that they were a compelling illustration. Of course (as you say) there are many things Beethoven brings to the table on his own - not least overall concept.
Thanks for your kind words. Cherubini - I need to look him up (sounds like a character from a Mozart opera :-)) Indeed the orchestra tunes to the oboe, but I believe it is the Leader (the concert meister) that dictates the pitch, giving it to the oboist. Please correct me if I am wrong.
@@PearlAcoustics My understanding is that the oboe is difficult to tune with no tuning slides (variation available by reed changing) and therefore the orchestra is at the mercy of it's pitch on the day, and have found quotes that illustrate this. There maybe variation on the tradition and have not the experience to give a definitive answer.
@@robh9079 I am sure you are absolutely right but the Oboeist will still need to match the pitch of the orchestra they play with or the keyboard etc and generally it is the concert master who dictates this, the oboe is able to shift a few kHz up or down, as required. But indeed, for bigger steps (more than 2-5khz) they need to change Reed’s or clip their Reed’s. My Oboeist friend tells me that he often starts to play with Reed’s that are a little too high, so he can relax his embouchere down to the correct pitch. While other players do the exact opposite. All I know for certain is that reeds are the endless nightmare for oboists and they nearly always end up making them themselves.
That was truly fascinating, thank you so much for this! I quite agree I find the 1980s cycle often unfairly critically maligned; maybe not quite on the level of what Karajan did before, but there's plenty to enjoy and in fairly decent early digital sound.
Thank you Harley for introducing the world of classical music to someone who has always found it intimidating. I want to start buying these works ideally on vinyl. Part of the pleasure for me is seeking out the best pressing/masterings, etc. Often in the world of rock, jazz, pop this is the original release/pressing in the country of origin. Does the same rule apply to classical? Having invested in a quality analogue system I want to avoid cheap represses with digital steps. Is there a resource/label to trust?
Hi, thank you for your very kind comment. It gives me pleasure to hear it. I think if you stick with the big labels for classical music (HMV DECCA DEUTSCHE GRAMAPHON etc) you should be fine. And you can get them pretty cheap secondhand
What do you mean by digital steps? If you are thinking of a stepped waveform, as you may have seen in visual representations, that is misleading. The samples are points on a wave, not steps, and the output waveform is smooth. If you are thinking of a digital delay used in cutting the master disc, that has been standard practice for a very long time. An actual digital remaster is another matter. Whether it will be better depends on how well it is done. For classical music you're better off with CD. It avoids all the sonic drawbacks of vinyl and the bad mastering that often afflicts CDs of popular music, and classical CDs can be incredibly cheap. I have a lot of classical music in my playlists and the sound can be very good through my £20 DAC/headphone amplifier.
@@nightjaronthegate indeed. We are totally aligned. Thanks for your comment. I had explained it earlier in another video and didn’t want to repeat it in detail
I agree that Nr. 3 is the birth of the Romantic period! 1 & 2 could be mistaken for Haydn. I have been listening to Nr. 7 (Kleiber, Wiener Phil) lately. Thank you Harley for taking me back to home base! Viewers should also listen to the companion piece, the Emperor Concerto. As a Canadian, I recommend Gould/Stokowski on Columbia.
That opening to the finale is the greatest joke in the whole of music. Joyous playfulness that somehow Beethoven passes off as "serious music" because he's Beethoven and that's how he rolls!
@@PearlAcoustics Aahh do not be. I am not an expert for classical music or Beethoven, but I like Immeseel's interpretations. They sound to me more real, as they shold be played - "light foots" with a joy in the sense of " Zeit Geist", not as heavy, slow, depressed... especially if you take Beethoven's 5- th for example.. it is a joy about new times to come, changes in society, not abut his depression about loss of hearing, or something like that...
@@PearlAcoustics so much passion for music , i love to see more reviews .. maybe the new all analogue series of deutsche grammophon .. the van Beethoven 7th by Carlos Kleiber and Vienna Phil
I could hear the the differences when you pointed them out. I do wonder about the changes in the microphones and recording medium. I sure liked the sound of '53 even though the dynamic range is not as great as the newer recordings.
Indeed, the development of both the microphones and recording technologies (going from wax cylinder to wire, to tape etc. also played a massive part). Glad you enjoyed it. I like the 1953 version too.
Harley, many thanks for sharing your thoughts on this pathbreaking symphony. Your observations about pitch have me wondering if you‘ve a preference for any particular historically informed recordings.
You’re welcome Mike. I do believe pitch is something one gets used to, though many modern musicians like to tune as high as possible. With regards preferences, I don’t. On the one hand there’s the performance and the other, sound quality. It’s a matter of mood and which version one I was brought up with. I am fond of Karl Bohm’s version. And some days the Karajan, 1953. Hope that helps? In this day of streaming we are so spoilt for choice.
@@PearlAcoustics I heartily agree on matters of taste and mood. My question (perhaps poorly worded) was around your interest/preferences on recordings that feature period instruments (i.e. Chris Hogwood’s iconic recordings with the Academy of Ancient Music). My ladyfriend plays Baroque and Classical horn (as well as a modern valved instrument). She’s actually sat second chair for Eroica on a couple of concert series at Symphony Hall here in Boston. We have our favorite recordings (Harnoncourt, Norrington, Hogwood), but are curious about your insights (if period instrument performance is of any interest). Cheers!
@@MikeRusso2000 Hi Mike, when period instruments first came on the scene back in the late 70’s, I couldn’t stand them. But today, some of the best performances ever are on them. Hogwood was a real pioneer and gets my respect. I like his recordings too 😉
I know that the 3rd symphony is the dam wall bursting and all. It's been voted the greatest symphony ever written and it's also my favourite tbh. But damn the 2nd symphony is under rated. Being in the shadow of eroica seems to have diminished the popularity of this gem...
Thanks for your comment. You know what I find particularly interesting is that exactly the same can be said of Sibelius’ 2nd, which was overshadowed by his 3rd. It seems to be a similar thing with children. I remember an experienced infant school teacher once telling me that second children were often more problematic in a family of three. After first, the second has less impact and when the third comes along the attention tends to go into the youngest and the oldest. I guess this is all none sense but I do like all of Beethovens symphonies. Would be impossible to pick just one!
@@PearlAcoustics Hi. Thank you for getting back to me. Yes, that is a great analogy. Especially if the 3rd child is studying as a brain surgeon or gets selected for trials at real madrid. Just lucky to have Ludwig's music whatever the concensus is from best to worse (or less best).... Great videos and with wonderful eclectic mix. From Beethoven to Daft Punk (RAM is a sublime sounding album). I always thought the early 60's cycle from Karajan was the best compromise between performance and audio advancement. I have the DDD dvd's from the early 80's in 5.1 but didn't even know about the 77 version. Thank you. Look forward to a proper listen...
@@neilf6782 thanks for sharing your kind appreciation. I must admit, his early 60’s recordings are wonderful performances. Enjoy the music. I have a treat for you on November 18, and also something nice on the 4th! Enjoy the music.
Many highlight Beethoven's 5th and 9th Symphonies as the greatest and rightly so but for me the 3rd is my favourite and the greatest because of its sheer scale and vision. This symphony also broke new ground. You have the arresting opening of the 1st movement and you can definitely here the heroic nature of this piece in this movement. But for me the most profound movement is the 2nd. A dedication in some respects to all the heroes of The French revolution if i am not mistaken. Truly awe inspiring tribute to the dead. Leonard Bernstein said the first two movements are "perhaps the greatest two movements in all symphonic music", in the recording Eroica (1953) and book The Infinite Variety of Music (1966).[ My recording of choice is Herbert von Karajan with the BPI on DG in 1977.
Hi Julian, good suggestion. Indeed Klemperer with the Philharmonia. He recorded it twice with them, 1955 and in 1961, which I find really strange because Karajan conducted the same work with the Philharmonia only two years later in 1953… unless I am mistaken?
The stereo Klemperer was my 'introduction' to concert music and opera as a 14 year old (in the early 1970s). I describe it today as Beethoven chiseled out of granite. It is a truly monumental performance (if only the recorded sound were better, and they were doing far better on other labels at the time). It took me three times through over a couple of weeks to 'get' the piece. Modern performances of the Eroica have their charms but, for me, they miss the depth and grandeur of these retro 1950-1970s performances (before the advent of the original instrument craze).
Please allow me another comment here. If you don't know the Simax record label please check for them. Thomas Dausgaard is conducting a very good 3rd Symphony of Beethoven with the Swedish Chamber Orchestra.
In general conductors' interpretations always make a huge difference in the world of classical music, but i have found this to be especially true when it comes to two composers in particular: Beethoven and Brahms. I have heard some tremendously dreadful and boring Beethoven and Brahms and i have heard some very inspired and interesting Beethoven and Brahms where i was wanting to listen closely to every second lest i would miss something beautiful. Karajan is always a wonderful choice to go with when it comes to Beethoven and so is Lenny Bernstein. There are some great contemporary conductors that do a good job with Beethoven as well (Rattle has his moments, so does Dudamel, Honeck can be interesting at times), but i do admit that more conductors tend to miss with Beethoven these days, although i don't understand why. It's a standard part of the repertoire. Beethoven should never sound dull and insipid. Thank you so much for this musical education on the Beethoven 3rd. It was a wonderful video.
You left out the six d minor chords in the first movement. That was for the early 19th century auditory shock and awe, a powerful statement of surprise dissonance. I took music as a humanities elective in college. The professor marked the second movement as the beginning of the romantic era. It was originally supposed to be dedicated to Napoleon. That Changed when Napoleon became a tyrant. Eroica means heroic.
Some distortion is introduced by various DAC drivers, but with the same settings, after listening to different types of music in parallel, in my experience, the descending order of bass strength is Apple Music, Spotify, and Tidal.
@@domenicofpv6490 Bluesound is good enough for me. I am a bit of a philistine when it comes to streaming. And it sounds ok to me. Happy to be proved wrong though 😀
@@PearlAcoustics I also wonder if part of it is the idea of being first to do something. That first movement and the symphony in general is breaking new ground in many different ways. It’s like a film creating its own genre and it can still be important decades later. Maybe why this sticks out so much to me is it was all about creativity in the freest extent because it was all new, even the length. It wasn’t a copy or a slight variation on things done before. Having said all that, it still blows me away that he was that creative, brings out that much emotion in me, and feels touched by something higher. I guess that’s the magic of Beethoven.
@@PearlAcoustics Thank you. I am very impressed how you present your subjects an a very intelligent way ! .indeed quallity time when watching and learning. Thanks again.
This is not as well done as other talks. Preparation seems to have been slack and too many silly mistakes were made. Messing about with equipment was clumsy.
@@PearlAcoustics Nonetheless, i enjoy your explanation of what"s great about musical compositions. You proved clearly that Beethovens 3rd was a game changer. Beethovens Waldstein Sonata turned me on to classical music when i was 19. Thanks.
I’m not a classical music connoisseur, but when I listen to you speaking about it with such knowledge and passion, you are slowly making me an adept of classical music. Thank you.
Wow, thank you! that's very kind
Beethoven’s Third Symphony is an astonishing masterpiece. I have 30 different recordings of it and all are different. I love it.
😀👍
Ikr, unlike liszt, who doesn't even know what music is.
220 years later that first movement still gives me goosebumps.
😀👌
2 3 4?????????????????
The second movement is the highest form of art ever written.
I would say that's a wholesome response!
Thanks awfully for the info on one of my favourite symphonies.
My pleasure!
These videos focusing on a single work are really great. Please keep them coming.
Thanks, I will do my best!
Wonderful video and amazing commentary. Thank you so much. Beehoven's 3rd symphony is brilliant and masterful.
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for your kind comment
Happy New Year Mr. Harley Lovegrove! I love Beethoven! About the 3rd. I have listened to a few renditions of different conductors but I like Paul Kletzky with Czech Philarmonic. I don't know why, but my preferred Beethoven symphony is the 5th by Paul Klezky with Czech Philarmonic (Supraphon) but also Gunter Wand with NDR Sinfonieorchestre (RCA) and Erich Kleiber with Concertgebouworkest (Decca).
Thank you for your kind wishes! My very best wishes to you and your loved ones too. And thanks for the tips. It’s hard to explain why we prefer one symphony more than another. My mother brought me up to try as best I could to understand and to explain what I like and why. All these years later, I am still struggling 😉. Kleiber, Decca and Beethoven, a wonderful combination! Happy New Year to you and all who read this message.
The best symphony of all time
Even better than his 7th. Or 9th.? 😉 Thsnks for your comment
@@PearlAcoustics According to Beethoven. But what would he have known?
@@thethikboy 😂👍
I've been a lover of the Eroica since a music appreciation course at Cornell taught by Don Randel. I was driving somewhere recently and the radio was tuned to the classical station, and I usually switch over to some hard rock, but Eroica was playing and the performance was just staggeringly engaging. Turned out it was the Pittsburgh Symphony under the direction of Manfred Honeck. This recording is highly recommended! And thanks, Harley, for a great exposition, as usual.
Thanks for your very kind appreciation and interesting back story. I will give the version a listen
you're right, found this on spotify. thank you.
My favorite symphony of all time, I have heard this live 5 times, know it by heart!
Next up, you’ll need to conduct it! 😉
I wish!
@@IvanTerreroDDS 😉
This is literally my dream job. I could do this tirelessly, in another life hopefully! Thank you for this and for the video on Sibelius' 3rd.
You're so welcome! Best wishes from Tienen in Belgium. (Next up is Mozart piano concerto No. 15).
Phenomenal video. Maybe my favourite of Harvey’s to date. I love jumping between vinyl versions. Thank you Harvey. Entertaining and I learned something along the way. I only have a Bernstein recording of #3 so hearing these different versions makes me want to go learn more.
Glad you enjoyed it. Best wishes from Belgium
"I truly appreciate the depth of detail and keen observations you share. Taking the time to demonstrate these excerpts from various recordings allows us to fully immerse ourselves and grasp the unique decisions that conductors make in their interpretation. Your insights have undoubtedly helped me develop a more discerning ear and a profound love for the music at a much deeper level. I am aware that preparing these videos requires considerable effort, so I wanted to extend a heartfelt thank you for your dedication and hard work."
Thank you Gordon, I am so pleased you enjoy them. Best wishes from Belgium
Thanks for the amazing presentation ,it’s called Eroica for a reason
I have the record printed by Deutsche grammophon, 1977 recording conducted by Karajan,hardly played, which I found some 15 years ago in a flea market for some ridiculous amount of money before owning a turntable became a thing
I do not have any formal education in classic music, so your explanations make me enjoy listening to it even greater Thanks!❤
Many thanks for this Harley , i loved it . I have loved this piece for a long time first hearing in my early teens . Listening to you i have learned much more about it . Great stuff.
Thank you David. So pleased you enjoyed it.
This is a truly wonderful series Harley. As only a casual listener to Classical music (Classicfm in the UK) my eyes have been opened to a richness of music that I was hitherto unaware. Your enthusiasm and knowledge are infectious, and have caused me to seek out more and more Classical music in my leisure-time listening. Keep 'em coming please.
Thank you so much for your kind appreciation. I will do my best. It won’t always be classical music, but the next piece will be Schubert’s piano sonata No. 21 D960… maybe you know it already?
Afraid not Hartley, I'll wait to learn all about it. Thank you
Thank you so much. I enjoyed your comments and the way you exposed them. The third is my symphony per se; is like to see the storm and the tornado coming toward me by the power of his genius, but without destruction in between; it is Beethoven who comes to give us peace, strength and a different kind of energy
I have a marvelous version; it is not Karajan’s; don’t have the name of the conductor at hand
Thanks again
Greetings from Costa Rica
Thank you for your lovely comment and description. Enjoy the music.
I really enjoyed this video. Ur knowledge, passion and appreciation of the 'genius of Beethoven' makes u my new favorite listening buddy. Thanks for dancing with me to this
Cool, thanks! Very kind
And WOW, even through YT and through microphones, the Sibelius speakers sound amazing, simply amazing!
Thanks!
This is the best promotion, explanation and comparison of high-end audio equipment, media types, and classical music exposure to date. in my opinion.
🙏 you’re very kind
Charming presentation Mr Lovegrove, Thank you!
I'd been procrastinating on watching so I could give my full attention on the TV and stereo. Finally made time this morning.
Bravo!
(No question the Sibelius speakers are full bodied in their presentation.... I could see and hear those tiny drivers bass response;-)
I've had the DG77 Karajan on cd so long that the foam protection rotted away.
Streaming the 66 right now. Impressive!
Very glad for Qobuz to make this fantastic music so easily accessible.
Thanks for the enthusiastic reintroduction. I'll be on a Beethoven kick for a while again 🎶😊🎶
Thanks very much for your comment. Sorry it took me so long to reply. I guess you’re well into his 7th. By now! 😉
Thank you so much for this ,I love to learn the the history of this music, most people can't appreciate what it took to create such timeless music.
Glad you enjoyed it. See you in the next one!
I have von Karajan's recording of the 3rd and while I'm not a classicist, this is one of of my loved pieces of music. I'll liston to the others. Much Thanks Hartley.
You’re very welcome, indeed there so many other good versions. Enjoy!
Thanks for this very nice video. You have the right sort of passion to convey the beauty of classical music. It reminds me of my classes on conservatory.
Thank you very much! You’re very kind
Great dissection as usual. I own the 85 performance. Love your talks. Keep ‘em coming!
Thanks very much. A new one on Schubert coming soon…. I will try and do one a month and one on a HiFi topic
Classical music has only two periods - before Beethoven, and after Beethoven!
😀
Harley it is inspiring to hear your passionate description of Beethoven music that I totally share while listening to it … Best regards from Chile , South America
Thank you very much indeed.
Marvelous. So excited I just now discovered your videos! I’ve loved classical music ever since a boy of 14 and go to lots of concerts here and in Europe. Thanks so much for your insights.
Thanks. You’re very welcome
I'm a huge Beethoven fan. I adored the introduction, it should be written down somewhere for all to read. You could have gone on for much much longer comparing the records, I would have really enjoyed that! there is so much to talk about when it comes to the creativity, the different versions (I literally went to eBay to try to find the records you have!).
The finale, is something amazing and mind blowing for the time. No one could understand what was happening, especially the musicians on the first performance. He leads to a grand finale that ends up not being the "real finale" and then ends with the fragment you shared.
The real story behind the finale is that Beethoven loved the theme on which he develops the entire movement, he had used it many years in the past on another piece called "The Creatures of Prometheus". He took the theme to a whole different level as a mature composer (he was much younger at the time he did Prometheus"). Also, some musicologist believe, the chose to use that "silly" and "playful" theme for the finale (which has nothing to do with the grandeur and drama the audience has been listening to so far) as a joke, and that the 3 chord blasting in fortissimo after the theme is presented is basically Beethoven's laughter: Ha Ha Ha!
Love your equipment!
PS: I just bought on eBay the 1953's recording by Toscanini!
Thank you very much for your kind appreciation and very interesting contribution to the topic. I always find it difficult to know how much leave out. The goal is to introduce people to the work, that might not ever have heard it but not to exclude those who love it. Plus additional comments such as yours, enrich the experience for the channel. Thanks again, H
Dear Harley, thank you so much for this fantastic video, your insights, your knowledge and passion. Same for your session on Sibelius‘ 3rd Symphony. Excellent. Thank you.
My pleasure! So glad you enjoy them.
Again a great joy to listen to your talk
Thanks!🙏
Hello Harley. Two things, first, the pipe organ company I have worked for over 34 years now, are employed by the Boston Symphony Orchestra during the summer when they are at Tanglewood, Lenox MA. Shed organ under our care and the portative organ for the Bach Cantatas in Ozawa Hall. We tune the instruments to the BSO standard of A=441 !
Secondly, as long time subscriber of the Digital Concert Hall (Berlin) I have watched all the Von Karjan movies they offer from the archives. It is well known that Karjan was very much into audio tech back in the day. His good friend Gunter was instrumental in engineering as HVK requested. Can you say MULTI CHANNEL microphones (up to 65!!) 😊 No wonder those recordings sound so different.
He wanted to control all the individual sections of the orchestra broken down to the maximum degree for complete control room style mixdowns. You must have read all about this history. HVK was also very much into the digital/CD tech before he passed.
Thanks for your presentation as always.
Thank you for your kind appreciation and for the very interesting interesting additional information background info on HVK.
Thank you for the review and sharing history and passion .........always happy to learn , never to old to learn , never to old to share .......
Well said! 😀
Like some others, I am not an authority on classical music, but I do enjoy a lot of popular classics. However, based on your obvious excitement, I have been listening to the Karajan 1963 recording streamed from Tidal. Wow, the dynamics are so exciting, I am really enjoying it. I look forward to future recommendations. Thanks Harley for sharing your knowledge, it is truly appreciated.
Thank you. You’re very kind. I hope to make more (hopefully one a month). Enjoy!
certainly one of the most passionate of all symphonies! and after you explain the context it becomes more enlightening! and i must say your presentation is knowledgeable and exciting .the way you were enjoying the symphony ,i felt you could even get up and conduct or dance for that matter. on a serious note thanx so much for making these wonderful videos. god bless!
Thank you very much indeed. You’re very kind. So glad you enjoyed it
Great discussion about a musical masterpiece. Thank tou for introducing me to Karajan's version. I mostly live by Daniel Barenboim's versions.
Thank you for watching! So pleased to hear you enjoyed it.
Fantasic video, best music lesson i have had in 35 years.
Thanks very much. You’re very kind, but of course I don’t know how good the lesson was 35 years ago! 😂
Thanks for the video. This was one of the set pieces I studied for O level music back in the mid 70’s - I remember buying the ‘77 vinyl version a couple of years later! I’m sure I still have it - I need to dig it out and take a listen!
you're very welcome. Enjoy your vinyl.
Fabulous work, my friend!!! I love this video, your explanation and your generosity showing and sharing yours recordings. Thank you so much.
And, I've read about 432hz. It seems having real psicolgist effects.
Thank you. Indeed, there is a lot written about 432 tuning, but I do not find it ever being a ‘norm’ but a preference by some and the general understanding that in the 18th and early 19th century, most ensembles and orchestras tuned to a lower pitch. Glad you enjoy the video.
Your the man as you break it down in such a clear, concise manner! I like Jim Svejda however sometimes I cannot understand him!
Thanks! You’re very kind
Thank you, thank you. This symphony is exceptional and unparalleled. Partly because we can’t put it in context.
you're very welcome.
It has been a pleasure to listen to this talk. I have learned so much. As you were playing the different versions I could pick out the the differences that you pointed out. Thank you. Looking forward to another video like this. Maybe Mahler’s Symphony No 1.
So glad you enjoyed it. Thanks too for your suggestion. I will of course bear it in mind. But perhaps I should stay with the 3’s and go for his third, after all, I think it is the longest symphony ever written? 😀
Thank you so much for this, particularly because Beethoven's 3rd was the very first Classical LP I ever purchased on my own. Being an early "flower child" and young "hippie" (I had been listening almost exclusively to popular and mainly Rock and Roll i.e., the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Jimi Hendrix, Cream and The Who). But after reading that my "heroes" like Pete Townsend and Frank Zappa thought very highly of/ and that young people NEEDED to broaden they're listening habits by hearing Classical music. As I've stated my first Classical LP was Beethoven's 3rd. Not knowing much of anything about it. I walked into my local music store in Charleston, SC and picked the Eroica as recorded by Karl Bohm and the VPO... I was SO blown away by not only the music itself...but the quality of the recording as well! That it started a lifelong love affair not only with Classical music. But also, the love of audio and recording in general. Just a few years later my older brother who had started working at a well-known recording studio, The Record Plant Recording Studios in Los Angeles. After moving back to LA (where I was born) I also began working there and rapidly emersed myself in Classical Music, through radio and buying vinyl. I was privileged to work with Frank Zappa there. Many years later even though my main interest were Art and Photography, in the early 2000's I was asked to come and work at my local Tower Records store in Torrance, CA because of my knowledge. Now at 69 years old I'm retired and enjoy watching your TH-cam channel.
But I think Bohm's recording (mid 70's) is superior and I've never quite found a better version. Which I have a theory about, which is. Many times, the first time you hear a particular work. It will leave an indelible impression that will stay with you for years until you hear a definably BETTER version. Best regards and keep up the great work. Thank you!
Thank you David. Thank you for your kind words and wonderful back story. It’s much appreciated. Karl Bohm was one of my favourites (for Beethoven) too. Did you ever hear Klemperer conduct Beethoven? He took everything so slow 😉
David, thanks for your story. Given your passion, I'll make a request of you. If you use a CD player as a source, I'll highly recommend the Pittsburgh Symphony's version of Beethoven's 3rd. They're recorded by Reference Recordings and the production quality, along with the orchestra's performance under Manfred Honeck are fantastic! Their partnership has resulted in multiple Grammy nominations and wins. You'll enjoy it!
@@PearlAcoustics Thank You! Do you listen to any of the Chando's recordings of the Royal Scottish National Orchestra with Neeme Jarvi...Most excellent Orchestral recordings,
His Shostakovich cycle is amazing!
@@DavidSmith-tl1qh absolutely - a great combination!
Thank you!!
You're welcome!
This is what as always done my head in with vinyl, the crackles and pops, no matter how well you look after it, it spoils the music. Give me SACD, Blu Ray or CD any day of the week. I personally don't get the vinyl revival, we should never go backwards.
Indeed, but from an historical context I find it rather fun.
🤗👂LISTENING AGAIN…AND I ENJOYED WATCHING YOU ENJOY THE MUSIC 🎼😁
:-)
Harnoncourt’s recordings are definitely on the top of my Beethoven list. And the 3rd symphony is my favorite. I’ve only played the 5th and the 7th in the viola-section, but those two are fantastic as well. Dudamel did a fine interpretation of the Eroica when he was chief conductor in Gothenburg with the GSO.
Indeed, indeed. So many wonderful conductors. Each bringing their own take on the works.
🙋♂️ THANKS HARLEY,GREAT TO HEAR 👂 FROM YOU, I HOPE ALL IS WELL 💚💚💚
All good thanks!
@@PearlAcoustics 🤗👍
Amazing video, man. Thank you for this gem.
You’re welcome
Thank you so much. A great video. Beethoven is the man for me.
Thank you. And if you could have just two works of his - what would they be?
@@PearlAcoustics Wow, I like so much of his music but I am always attracted to his 6th Symphony and The Moonlight Sonata.
@@7649angel for me it would be ‘The Tempest sonata and his opus 130, string quartet. If only one symphony, I would take the ninth, as it would remind me of all the others.
Dear Harvey ,
Also I wanted your take on Schubert’s Death and the Maidan quartet I have bought 8 cd’s few of them are amazing specially on the speaker
Sounds like shaking the earth and so intense.
As always thankful to what you’re doing for us
Kind regards
Atri
Firstly, it’s an incredible piece, as you already know. I don’t have a favourite version but it would make an interesting talk for the future. Have you heard the Takacs or Quartetto Italiano? In fact, my next video will be on Schubert - his piano sonata No 21 D960.
@@PearlAcoustics Takacs or Quartetto Italiano , well i only heard this from you first time ever will have a look for Schubert piano sonata .. Thanks Harvey
Thanks for this! I too love the '77 version, in fact I believe it's his BEST. As you say, the dynamic range is through the roof. :) Haven't heard the '85, but now I'm curious. But the '77 (as a set) will probably remain the ultimate fusion of conductorial might married to sonic power; everything came together for that one. I think one of the reasons the 80's version didn't get much acclaim is because Karajan had haters at that point and they said he being self-indulgent for re-re-re-recording the cycle. Also, they say the digital technology wasn't up to snuff, but I hear no evidence of that in your LP.
BTW, I wish they'd have players seated on terraced risers like in the video! It creates a literal WALL OF SOUND. Is there some reason why they don't? I mean if it would sound better than why not? I know some conductors, like Currentzis, has his orchestra play standing up. But terraced risers would be even better, whether standing or sitting! :D
Thanks for your comment and very kind appreciation.
To reply to your point on terraces in concerts. In fact, in a way many orchestras do. Ie the audience is banked up and the orchestra is often placed on more than one level with the percussion, higher up and to the rear. The sound of violins snd violas travels upwards so in fact they need to be as low as possible. A wall of sound, as in HVK’s film, would not work in reality, unless the listener was at least half way up in front of it. (I hope I am making sense)?
Nice idea though!
@@PearlAcoustics I didn't realize violins and violas travel up sound-wise. Yet I don't hear any degrading of sound when orchestras play standing up. Also, didn't Mahler instruct his horn players to stand up during a crucial section? Presumably the brass is better when belted out into our faces? :)
@@NN-df7hl hi Indeed, many string ensembles play standing up. The musicians can move more freely, the height difference is small but they can also see each item and the conductor much easier, I believe. But I will check with a friend of mine who leads a string ensemble and they always play standing up.
The brass standing up allows their sound to carry right to the back of the hall (and it also helps not to blast out the ears of those directly in front! 😀
Now, at min nr. 24 on this video, when you put back the vinyl for the 3rd movement, even compressed as it is through YT, the music comes to life and this is what I mean when I say that music is better enjoyed through vinyl.
Aaaah, adding to my comment..........I see you featured the DCH footage (O: Thank you Harley!
You’re very welcome
I am more a fan of 20th-century classical composers but have to agree that Beethoven always stirs emotions as only the greats can. Fabulous 'talk' on that composition, and its recordings!
Thanks!
Talking art, thank you!
Excellent 👍 I too, did a vídeo about Beethoven 3😊. He was the heavy metal rebel of his time. The first musician that didn't depend on the church or royals for money 🤑💰
Absolutely! Thanks for your very kind appreciation
It's nice to see your passion for music. It would be nice if all speaker builders loved music this much. And about the tempo of the music in the later recordings... it is a well-known fact that the later versions of the recordings of almost all great conductors are much slower than the earlier ones - Bernstein's recordings of Mahler's symphonies are a good example of this.
Thanks. And thanks for your addition to the topic.
Oh, Harley, thank you for sharing your knowledge here. I can't tell you how much it means to me. I need to have a teacher to help me learn. ❤
You are so welcome!
I have had the 1963 performance since the 70's and was always disappointed that Karajan didn't take the exposition repeat of the first movement.
Maybe it was for length restrictions if the LPs at that time?
The Vienna Phil tunes to A = 446. Whenever I play one of their LP's, I always recheck my turntable speed.
interesting point. 446, that's high.
@@PearlAcoustics The Berlin Philharmonic has always had a high pitch too. Orchestras never really took much notice of any international pitch standard.
Thanks for the video, One of my go to pieces and used so well in Clockwork Orange - Stanley Kubrick is the 9th. I'm going to listen again to my CD version soon with a new set of ears.....
You’re welcome. Enjoy!
There is a scene in Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho, towards the end of the movie, where Vera Miles, is poking around Norman Bate's room in the creepy house on the hill that overlooks the Bates Motel, there is a one or two frame shot looking down on a phonograph record player and, of course is is Beethoven's 3rd on 78, I believe conducted by Toscanini. I do not know why, but this stuck with me and when I saw this movie, it took me a while to gather the courage to hear it for the first time.
Incredible... the detail that Hitchcock went to was so amazing. How impressive too that you took the time to listen the Toscanini because of it.
@@PearlAcoustics I am not a fan of Karajan. Pretty much the only DG recordings I do not care for, are his. My favorite recording of Beethoven's Third is a cd I own from the L'Oiseau-Lyre label by the Academy of Ancient Music, conducted by Christopher Hogwood. On original instruments, this is a raw and passionate performance, a gripping performance. When I was a kid and saw Psycho, in a real movie theater, the movie freaked me out, and still does, one of the best and my favorite horror movies of all time. Bernard Herrmann's score is awesome, too. Not having heard much Beethoven then, and certainly not the Third, I thought that Hitchcock's reference to this piece must mean, this is a pretty scary piece of music. Intrigued, I sought this piece out and borrowed the record from my local library (can't remember the recording, probably Karajan!) and was expecting some secret, satanic horror crazy symphony. Well, Beethoven's Eroica is not that. To me it is truly an amazing, revolutionary work, I love this piece and I am about to drop my Hogwood reading into the old cd player now. I look forward to all your videos, keep them coming, please.
@@chrissergeant7798 Christopher Hogwood… indeed a pioneer and great interpreter. Thanks for the kind words and encouragement!
_Userles trivia 1:_ Karajan's 1982-1985 set was the first music I ever bought. _Userles trivia 2:_ The 'wrong/false-note' horn entry, to me, sounded neither wrong nor too early (although I strongly suspect that's down to my poor muscicianship!). Thanls for sharing.
😀
My favourite interpretation of the 3rd is by Roy Goodman with the Hanover Band for Nimbus Records. Von Karajan’s rendition feels to me glossed over and heavy handed. The video emphasises those aspects.
Indeed, Karajan was a law unto himself, but he sold over 200 million records. That’s almost as much as Pink Floyd 😂
@@PearlAcoustics He definitely was both cult and extreme popularity matter.
Karajan is always one of the best choices for Beethoven's symphonies, and I use it as a reference. It is my first choice, anyway. I also like Leonard Berstein and Romanian conductor George Georgescu (1887-1964, he also distinguished himself by leading the Berlin Philharmonic in 1918).
Thanks for your comment and contribution
Once long ago I was directed to Furtwängler as pretty much the definitive interpreter of Beethoven. I know he recorded the 3rd several times. Do you have views on this?
Hi, I have heard his recordings but it was a while ago. I agree, in his time, he was considered the definitive interpreter. But, times change, fashions in interpretation change - and recording techniques allow for a different emphasis on dynamics and tonality from the orchestra
Great video. Thank you!
Thanks 🙏
Can't thank you enough for this wonderful video. Oddly enough for me, I think the 1953 recording is the most preferred. But to be honest, Karajan usually loses in that decision making moment of who gets heard in my listening space. That honour, for Beethoven, is Furtwangler. Oh, I know the recordings are lacking in modern dynamics, but oh...the excitement and magic that Furtwangler extricates from the Vienna Phil. is breathtaking, and leaves Karajan as just another baton beater. Not to dismiss Herbert entirely ( I think his Sibelius amazing, equally his Bruckner) but Beethoven? For my Beethoven moments, Wilhem rules. :)
Thank you very much for your very kind appreciation. I can understand where you are coming from, Furtwangler was always the conductor who set the standard. As for Sibelius, even though I prefer other conductors, there is no doubt in my mind that we have HVK to thank for keeping him in popularity. Without HVK, Sibelius could have been forgotten by now.
Zubin Mehta conducted Beethoven’s third with the Israel, New York, and Berlin philharmonic orchestras.
Thanks for that. I am ashamed to say I haven’t heard any of them. Will do so now. Which one do you prefer?
@@PearlAcoustics The NYPhil recording is now available on ‘Zubin Mehta: The Complete Columbia Recordings’ CD box set from Sony. Warner music has also released a ‘Complete Zubin Mehta’ recordings CD box set. In addition Decca has also released a ‘Zubin Mehta: The Complete LA Philharmonic Recordings’ CD box set. Zubin Mehta studied music in India and Austria. He’s an accomplished conductor of Mahler, Bruckner, Verdi, Mozart, Richard Strauss, etc. His recordings of Mahler symphony 2 and Bruckners 8 & 9 all with the Vienna Philharmonic are still available on the Decca Legends recordings series. An outstanding conductor in everyway.
@@rags015 thanks very much! I seem to remember that Zubi Mehta conducted BBC Proms concert I attended, back when I was a music student in London. I can’t remember what he conducted. It might have been Mahler 2. He certainly was very highly regarded (and obviously still is). Thanks for the reminder and the suggestions
For an in-depth analysis of the Eroica, let me suggest both Jan Swafford's terrific Beethoven biography (Beethoven: Anguish and Triumph) and Robert Greenberg's analysis for Wondrium / The Great Courses (as part of his larger Beethoven Symphonies lecture series). Swafford, in particular, brings home the connection between Beethoven's use of the finale of his Creatures of Prometheus as the core motif for the entire piece - which, in itself, kicks off the 'heroic' period in Beethoven's music. Beethoven begins composing the Eroica in the aftermath of his recognition that his hearing is failing - and he can imagine no worse fate for a musician than to be losing the one thing that is most closely associated with his art. (As an aside, as a long-time audiophile now suffering from tinnitus, I can easily identify with Beethoven's intense frustration at having this, of all the five senses, be the one to fail. And I am positive that, among audiophiles of a certain age, I am not alone!). This Promethean theme is obviously dear to Beethoven, a fact we can know because he uses it not only in the symphony but also in a brilliant set of piano variations, the Variations and Fugue in E-Flat, Op. 35, written at roughly the same time. For me, the Eroica is Beethoven's deeply personal musical distillation of what Joseph Campbell would later describe as the Hero's Journey, interpolated for his time, place, and mode of artistic expression.
Thank you for your very informative and interesting comment. A great contribution to be topic. 🙏
Would like to endorse your comments about swofford’s biography. It’s also available as an audible book, which I listened to over the course of many hours walking my dog.
Very interesting. One thing you have to take into account is that we have three different recording venues here. 1953 is from Kingsway Hall in London, 1963 is Jesus Christus Kirche in Berlin and the later two are from the Berlin Philharmonic Hall. Karajan's last recording of the nine is not a huge success except for the Eroica which is stunning. My favorite of the Karajan cycles is the 1977 as I find it more extreme and original than the famous 1963 cycle. The box set, 1977, was released in a limited edition in leather signed by Karajan. I had that and it was stolen from me. Some years ago I wrote an article comparing complete sets of the nine and my top three were Haitink and LSO, Karajan 1977 and George Szell with Cleveland. Also, both the Karajan 1963 and 1977 sets are available on Blu-ray Audio. But as I said, the Karajan 1985 Eroica is absolutely fantastic and not to be missed.
Thanks Thomas for your kind appreciation and very interesting contribution to the discussion
Sorry to hear that your signed copy was stolen. I too possess a copy but I strongly suspect that the Karajan signature is in mechanical pen as the signatures in each copy show no variation
@@feskoegaffney9177 You are probably right. I don't think Karajan wrote a thousand signatures.
What an enjoyable vid, thanks. Re the pitch - of course everyone tunes to the oboe, so might the temperature/humidity of the day have affected the oboe's behavior(?) Interestingly, Cherubini was cited as a little recognised but significant influence and precursor of Beethoven's orchestral style in some respects by my teacher at RCM. I can't remember the extracts played - only that they were a compelling illustration. Of course (as you say) there are many things Beethoven brings to the table on his own - not least overall concept.
Thanks for your kind words. Cherubini - I need to look him up (sounds like a character from a Mozart opera :-)) Indeed the orchestra tunes to the oboe, but I believe it is the Leader (the concert meister) that dictates the pitch, giving it to the oboist. Please correct me if I am wrong.
@@PearlAcoustics My understanding is that the oboe is difficult to tune with no tuning slides (variation available by reed changing) and therefore the orchestra is at the mercy of it's pitch on the day, and have found quotes that illustrate this. There maybe variation on the tradition and have not the experience to give a definitive answer.
@@robh9079 I am sure you are absolutely right but the Oboeist will still need to match the pitch of the orchestra they play with or the keyboard etc and generally it is the concert master who dictates this, the oboe is able to shift a few kHz up or down, as required. But indeed, for bigger steps (more than 2-5khz) they need to change Reed’s or clip their Reed’s. My Oboeist friend tells me that he often starts to play with Reed’s that are a little too high, so he can relax his embouchere down to the correct pitch. While other players do the exact opposite. All I know for certain is that reeds are the endless nightmare for oboists and they nearly always end up making them themselves.
That was truly fascinating, thank you so much for this! I quite agree I find the 1980s cycle often unfairly critically maligned; maybe not quite on the level of what Karajan did before, but there's plenty to enjoy and in fairly decent early digital sound.
Thank you. You are very welcome! So glad you appreciated it. And thanks for your contribution to the topic too.
Thank you Harley for introducing the world of classical music to someone who has always found it intimidating. I want to start buying these works ideally on vinyl. Part of the pleasure for me is seeking out the best pressing/masterings, etc. Often in the world of rock, jazz, pop this is the original release/pressing in the country of origin. Does the same rule apply to classical? Having invested in a quality analogue system I want to avoid cheap represses with digital steps. Is there a resource/label to trust?
Hi, thank you for your very kind comment. It gives me pleasure to hear it. I think if you stick with the big labels for classical music (HMV DECCA DEUTSCHE GRAMAPHON etc) you should be fine. And you can get them pretty cheap secondhand
What do you mean by digital steps? If you are thinking of a stepped waveform, as you may have seen in visual representations, that is misleading. The samples are points on a wave, not steps, and the output waveform is smooth. If you are thinking of a digital delay used in cutting the master disc, that has been standard practice for a very long time. An actual digital remaster is another matter. Whether it will be better depends on how well it is done.
For classical music you're better off with CD. It avoids all the sonic drawbacks of vinyl and the bad mastering that often afflicts CDs of popular music, and classical CDs can be incredibly cheap.
I have a lot of classical music in my playlists and the sound can be very good through my £20 DAC/headphone amplifier.
@@nightjaronthegate indeed. We are totally aligned. Thanks for your comment. I had explained it earlier in another video and didn’t want to repeat it in detail
I agree that Nr. 3 is the birth of the Romantic period! 1 & 2 could be mistaken for Haydn. I have been listening to Nr. 7 (Kleiber, Wiener Phil) lately. Thank you Harley for taking me back to home base! Viewers should also listen to the companion piece, the Emperor Concerto. As a Canadian, I recommend Gould/Stokowski on Columbia.
Absolutely, totally agree, and thanks for the suggestion
Listening to Szell/Cleveland 1958 Tidal 192kHz MQA. Stunning remastered Stereorama recording!
That opening to the finale is the greatest joke in the whole of music. Joyous playfulness that somehow Beethoven passes off as "serious music" because he's Beethoven and that's how he rolls!
Thanks for your contribution to the topic
Great video again Harley!👍 What is your opinion on Jos Van Immerseel's interpretations of classics, especially Beethoven?
Hi, I am embarrassed to say that I am not familiar with his interpretations. But I will certainly give them a serious listen. Thanks!
@@PearlAcoustics Aahh do not be. I am not an expert for classical music or Beethoven, but I like Immeseel's interpretations. They sound to me more real, as they shold be played - "light foots" with a joy in the sense of " Zeit Geist", not as heavy, slow, depressed... especially if you take Beethoven's 5- th for example.. it is a joy about new times to come, changes in society, not abut his depression about loss of hearing, or something like that...
@@majtextwriter1794 what a great endorsement - now I need to listen to his 5th. Thanks!
wow! i like this review
Thanks! I am glad
@@PearlAcoustics so much passion for music , i love to see more reviews .. maybe the new all analogue series of deutsche grammophon .. the van Beethoven 7th by Carlos Kleiber and Vienna Phil
@@1Verwoert That's a dandy!
@@1Verwoert now that’s an idea! Maybe one day 😉
Love it
Thanks!
I could hear the the differences when you pointed them out.
I do wonder about the changes in the microphones and recording medium.
I sure liked the sound of '53 even though the dynamic range is not as great as the newer recordings.
Indeed, the development of both the microphones and recording technologies (going from wax cylinder to wire, to tape etc. also played a massive part). Glad you enjoyed it. I like the 1953 version too.
Harley, many thanks for sharing your thoughts on this pathbreaking symphony. Your observations about pitch have me wondering if you‘ve a preference for any particular historically informed recordings.
You’re welcome Mike. I do believe pitch is something one gets used to, though many modern musicians like to tune as high as possible. With regards preferences, I don’t. On the one hand there’s the performance and the other, sound quality. It’s a matter of mood and which version one I was brought up with. I am fond of Karl Bohm’s version. And some days the Karajan, 1953. Hope that helps? In this day of streaming we are so spoilt for choice.
@@PearlAcoustics I heartily agree on matters of taste and mood. My question (perhaps poorly worded) was around your interest/preferences on recordings that feature period instruments (i.e. Chris Hogwood’s iconic recordings with the Academy of Ancient Music).
My ladyfriend plays Baroque and Classical horn (as well as a modern valved instrument). She’s actually sat second chair for Eroica on a couple of concert series at Symphony Hall here in Boston. We have our favorite recordings (Harnoncourt, Norrington, Hogwood), but are curious about your insights (if period instrument performance is of any interest). Cheers!
@@MikeRusso2000 Hi Mike, when period instruments first came on the scene back in the late 70’s, I couldn’t stand them. But today, some of the best performances ever are on them. Hogwood was a real pioneer and gets my respect. I like his recordings too 😉
I know that the 3rd symphony is the dam wall bursting and all. It's been voted the greatest symphony ever written and it's also my favourite tbh. But damn the 2nd symphony is under rated. Being in the shadow of eroica seems to have diminished the popularity of this gem...
Thanks for your comment. You know what I find particularly interesting is that exactly the same can be said of Sibelius’ 2nd, which was overshadowed by his 3rd. It seems to be a similar thing with children. I remember an experienced infant school teacher once telling me that second children were often more problematic in a family of three. After first, the second has less impact and when the third comes along the attention tends to go into the youngest and the oldest. I guess this is all none sense but I do like all of Beethovens symphonies. Would be impossible to pick just one!
@@PearlAcoustics Hi. Thank you for getting back to me. Yes, that is a great analogy. Especially if the 3rd child is studying as a brain surgeon or gets selected for trials at real madrid. Just lucky to have Ludwig's music whatever the concensus is from best to worse (or less best).... Great videos and with wonderful eclectic mix. From Beethoven to Daft Punk (RAM is a sublime sounding album). I always thought the early 60's cycle from Karajan was the best compromise between performance and audio advancement. I have the DDD dvd's from the early 80's in 5.1 but didn't even know about the 77 version. Thank you. Look forward to a proper listen...
@@neilf6782 thanks for sharing your kind appreciation. I must admit, his early 60’s recordings are wonderful performances. Enjoy the music. I have a treat for you on November 18, and also something nice on the 4th! Enjoy the music.
@@PearlAcoustics Look forward to it..
Many highlight Beethoven's 5th and 9th Symphonies as the greatest and rightly so but for me the 3rd is my favourite and the greatest because of its sheer scale and vision. This symphony also broke new ground.
You have the arresting opening of the 1st movement and you can definitely here the heroic nature of this piece in this movement. But for me the most profound movement is the 2nd. A dedication in some respects to all the heroes of The French revolution if i am not mistaken. Truly awe inspiring tribute to the dead.
Leonard Bernstein said the first two movements are "perhaps the greatest two movements in all symphonic music", in the recording Eroica (1953) and book The Infinite Variety of Music (1966).[
My recording of choice is Herbert von Karajan with the BPI on DG in 1977.
Thanks for your comment and contribution to the discussion. It’s hard to disagree with Bernstein and indeed with you. 👍
I don't know why, but for some reason I think Beethoven would have preferred the 1953 version, which I have and like the best, thanks for the video.
You’re very welcome. And thanks for your interesting thought
Indeed it is the pitch .........personaly I like the lower pitch !
If you please ...What is this interesting Belgium dac ?
Have a nice day ;
Hi, the Dac turns out to be streamer from 432 Eco Music Servers. Best wishes
Thank you @@PearlAcoustics
Class
Thanks!
Try listening to Otto Klemperer conducting this. He was my favourite Beethoven conductor.
Hi Julian, good suggestion. Indeed Klemperer with the Philharmonia. He recorded it twice with them, 1955 and in 1961, which I find really strange because Karajan conducted the same work with the Philharmonia only two years later in 1953… unless I am mistaken?
The stereo Klemperer was my 'introduction' to concert music and opera as a 14 year old (in the early 1970s). I describe it today as Beethoven chiseled out of granite. It is a truly monumental performance (if only the recorded sound were better, and they were doing far better on other labels at the time). It took me three times through over a couple of weeks to 'get' the piece. Modern performances of the Eroica have their charms but, for me, they miss the depth and grandeur of these retro 1950-1970s performances (before the advent of the original instrument craze).
@@HPLeft thanks for your contribution to the topic
Please allow me another comment here. If you don't know the Simax record label please check for them. Thomas Dausgaard is conducting a very good 3rd Symphony of Beethoven with the Swedish Chamber Orchestra.
I didn’t know that one. I will certainly check it out. Thanks!
In general conductors' interpretations always make a huge difference in the world of classical music, but i have found this to be especially true when it comes to two composers in particular: Beethoven and Brahms. I have heard some tremendously dreadful and boring Beethoven and Brahms and i have heard some very inspired and interesting Beethoven and Brahms where i was wanting to listen closely to every second lest i would miss something beautiful. Karajan is always a wonderful choice to go with when it comes to Beethoven and so is Lenny Bernstein. There are some great contemporary conductors that do a good job with Beethoven as well (Rattle has his moments, so does Dudamel, Honeck can be interesting at times), but i do admit that more conductors tend to miss with Beethoven these days, although i don't understand why. It's a standard part of the repertoire. Beethoven should never sound dull and insipid. Thank you so much for this musical education on the Beethoven 3rd. It was a wonderful video.
Thank you for your contribution to the topic, and for your very kind appreciation
You left out the six d minor chords in the first movement. That was for the early 19th century auditory shock and awe, a powerful statement of surprise dissonance. I took music as a humanities elective in college. The professor marked the second movement as the beginning of the romantic era. It was originally supposed to be dedicated to Napoleon. That Changed when Napoleon became a tyrant. Eroica means heroic.
Thank you for interesting comment and contribution to the topic.
In my audio settings, Spotify has an amplified bass.
Oh, not sure why… can you not override that?
Some distortion is introduced by various DAC drivers, but with the same settings, after listening to different types of music in parallel, in my experience, the descending order of bass strength is Apple Music, Spotify, and Tidal.
What kind of streamer did you use?
A Bluesound Node
@@PearlAcoustics thanks, no high end streaming for you? Bluesound good enough?
@@domenicofpv6490 Bluesound is good enough for me. I am a bit of a philistine when it comes to streaming. And it sounds ok to me. Happy to be proved wrong though 😀
I still think the first movement is the closest thing maybe I feel to seeing God in music. I don’t know how a mere mortal reached that high.
That is the strangest thing, isn’t it? That someone actually thought it all up and got it down for us to enjoy marvel at two hundred years later!
@@PearlAcoustics I also wonder if part of it is the idea of being first to do something. That first movement and the symphony in general is breaking new ground in many different ways. It’s like a film creating its own genre and it can still be important decades later. Maybe why this sticks out so much to me is it was all about creativity in the freest extent because it was all new, even the length. It wasn’t a copy or a slight variation on things done before. Having said all that, it still blows me away that he was that creative, brings out that much emotion in me, and feels touched by something higher. I guess that’s the magic of Beethoven.
@@Ray-dl5mp indeed… that is the genius of Beethoven and the privilege we have to be able to experience it
Funny I saw a very early recording by a young Herbert von Karayan in a Dutch recycle store between piles of slager music lp’s. Might have to go back
indeed :-)
Why my comment was deleted?
Hi, I have no idea - we do not delete comments. Was there a link in it? Sometimes TH-cam does not allow that. Please try again, perhaps in this reply.
@@PearlAcoustics YES, My reply was with 2 TH-cam links ... Thank you for your reply. I can recommend version with Zubin Mehta, New York Philharmonic
@@mrronenza ah now that’s the second time Mehta has been nominated! Thanks!
@@PearlAcoustics Thank you. I am very impressed how you present your subjects an a very intelligent way ! .indeed quallity time when watching and learning. Thanks again.
@@mrronenza thank you. You’re very kind
A=440 / 432 / ...
Nothing comes close to Celibidache's Eroica
Thanks for sharing!
@@PearlAcoustics Thanks for not patronizing!
@@ayelet8168 😀👍
Unintational ASMR
🙏
This is not as well done as other talks. Preparation seems to have been slack and too many silly mistakes were made.
Messing about with equipment was clumsy.
Too much time on the opening.
Thanks for your comment
@@PearlAcoustics
Nonetheless, i enjoy your explanation of what"s great about musical compositions.
You proved clearly that Beethovens 3rd was a game changer.
Beethovens Waldstein Sonata
turned me on to classical music when i was 19.
Thanks.
@@markrymanowski719 thanks for your kind appreciation and also for your contribution to the topic