Repertoire: The BEST Beethoven Fifth
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ย. 2024
- What can we say? This is only the best known, most popular piece of classical music ever written, and here are its ten best recordings--or should I say ten of its best recordings? You be the judge. Here, however, is unquestionably the finest ever interpretation of the first movement:
• Sid Caesar & Nanette F...
Musical Examples courtesy of Supraphon Records
I had never heard this piece before. Was refreshing to hear such an unknown piece after all the tired warhorses endlessly played by American and European orchestras such as Krenek's third, Mennin's fifth, Roy Harris 3, Henze's fifth, Ropartz's first and of course Roger Sessions's fifth (I find it hard to choose between the third and fourth Karajan and the Wand Munich live version). The Holmboe and Robert Simpson 7th symphonies are also too overplayed - the Dudamel Cologne Simpson hangs fire. His later Bavarian RSO is more inspired (and includes the Haas edition tam tam) but only available on vinyl.
Too true!
This does NOT seem to belong in this presentation.
@@leslieackerman4189 It's was a joke (sigh).
Classical music snark at its finest-bravo!
haha - well this actually gave me some suggestions of overplayed pieces to listen to, so thanks for that and the laugh!
I just listened to the Markavich for the first time. After it was done, my husband in the other room said "that's the best I've ever heard". My guy is a talented amateur pianist, I trust his ear.
Thank you ,Thank you, Thank you ,for playing excepts from your chosen recordings! Doing so makes your reviews more impactfull. Keep up the good work, David , Regards, Richard ( Timpanist )
Otto Klemperer did a live recording with the the Bavarian State orchestra of the 5th... it disappeared after I bought it. Twinned with the Beethoven 4th. It is so good I will listen to it until the end of my time. It hits every single one of my musical needs, in every regard.
I have Gardiner's period performances for the 3rd and 5th as my go-to. David indeed chose Gardiner as the fifth to market for that "if people just want the 5th, market it as just that" approach (which the record company marketers botched, according to him!) I guess his tastes have changed since? Gardiner is the most exciting performances I own, to me, because of their swiftness, transparency, and the amazing sonics of those animal skin drums from the period. Gardiner's cycle has got to be one of the most important.
That said, I'm very happy that I picked up Mackerras' Royal Liverpool Beethoven cycle yesterday at a thrift store for under $4! Might not have zoned in on it if it wasn't for David's recommendation that placed it in my memory.
Another wonderful 5th that I recently discovered is Dohnanyi w/ the Cleveland Orchestra
Bruno Walter's Columbia Symphony recording is a forever favorite, since the 60s LP came with a second companion record of his extensive rehearsal, which I believe that I listened to more than the performance itself.
,,10 recordings that give you the range of what can be done with it while still respecting what it is,, Great words!
Thank you for this I loved your talk! One thing about this symphony I find the oboe mini cadenza in the recapitulation of the first movement one of the most heartbreaking things in all of music
Im happy you mentioned Solti. Since I heard my father-in-law‘s LP many years ago, I love this recording. And the sound of the remastered CD is excellent !
Greetings from Northern Germany
Totally agree. It’s a great recording. And makes it all the more disappointing that Solti’s re-recording with Chicago was so unbelievably lame...
@@vinylarchaeologistThat’s too bad, because he did a nice Pastorale in Chicago, an LP which I enjoy now and then.
Leonard Bernstein made a point of bringing out that sixteenth note passage in the basses under the horns in the finale and in his NY Phil recording it is crystal clear. I saw his video rehearsal of the same with the Vienna Phil where he actually met with some resistance from the orchestra in trying to bring it out. Perhaps because he had to do some unique adjustments to achieve the result, some members of the orchestra started saying "you don't usually hear that" which forced Lenny to protest with a painful reply "I think you should hear that". Then Bernstein said he had never heard anybody else do it - he just went by general musical principals to get the result. And then someone in the orchestra asked "how could somebody be like that?". Well if you ask me I don't think what you usually hear should set the standard. We should all take responsibility for what we think ourselves first and only then compare with other points of view.
You've helped me hear and perceive this symphony in a new way with your profound musicological analysis!
I know I am late to the party, but this is great for people like me that love musing, but do not know music / music theory / etc.
Finally someone who thinks like me with their ears and puts Szell with the Wiener Philharmoniker on the podium. He also agrees with the reviewed fifths by Kletzki, Solti, as well as the coldness of Carlos Kleiber's recording -inexplicably praised-. I appreciate the reference to Dorati, who I did not know. And I write down other fifths that I think are very good: 1959 Eugen Jochum & Symphonieorchester Des Bayerischen Rundfunks; 1976 Leonard Bernstein & Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks; 1990 Georg Solti & Wiener Philharmoniker (Live); 2004 Klaus Tennstedt & London Philharmonic Orchestra (Live).
What a rewarding moment that yo mentioned the bass line of the last movement! Actually, you’re the first person to raise this issue, and I’ve almost given up for the search for proper recordings which let us hear the baseline! Your TH-cam channel is a treasure. Stay in shape^
I am glad to see you stressed Beethoven's Baselines. That is always one my criteria for evaluating Beethoven symphony performances.....and for some reason I rarely read commentary about this aspect.
Um, it's bass lines, but I don't mean to be picky!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Homonym-phobia: Basses are the base on which the orchestra is built.
My go to is Seiji Ozawa and the Boston Symphony Orchestra on Telarc. It was what introduced me to classical music and was one of my first compact discs.
my favor too
These rewiews are the a treasury and I always learn something new. My modest preference in this case goes to Giulini Los Angeles recording. Thank you so much, indeed!!
Thank you for mentioning the Giulini performance. There's a certain "rightness" in this recording. Sorry that. I can't express it better but you know what I mean. I had the good fortune to attend his performance of the 7th. Life is good. 😊
Thx Dav! I found my fav version under your guidance -- Solti/Vienna Phil. Ears won't lie to you!
The best rendition of the fifth I have ever heard was a live performance by Stokowski and the LPO. It was as though he had just discovered this composition and was presenting it to the world with all the fire and passion of a great debut and all the lyricism, musicality and beauty of sound, where appropriate, that characterized his best performances.
DAVID, very illuminating, informative, and entertaining video. love szell, Klemperer, and Erich Kleiber in particular but i must give credit to a recording you praised highly and it's the grand, mighty, and thrilling account by Giulini and the Lapo which might be my overall favorite!
As always you offer some great recommendations. Thanks for what you do.
Today while walking by the waterside, I listened to 8 different versions of Beethoven’s Fifth on headphones. Rather than feeling deranged or obsessive, I felt lucky, inspired, and delighted! I never would have enjoyed so educational and elevating an afternoon if it were not for you, Dave. Thank you truly and sincerely for introducing me (and so many others) to the wonderful world of comparative critical listening! (Dorati and Wand were my favourites by far, for different reasons.)
When your tired of Beethoven. Your tired of life. And u till the day I die I will never tire of its power and dynamism Karajan or Klieber for me
*you’re
Klieber…. uggh. Who’s that?
@@65jaypee get used to it, this guy is young and texts a lot.
Thank you, Karens.
I think you recommended the Markevitch in an earlier video, so I have that one and when I first heard it, I could barely believe it was recorded in 1959. It sounded as if it was being performed right there and then for my personal pleasure and delight! Extraordinary. That was a darn'd good talk, too. I like you taking pieces apart like this, and explaining and focusing our attention on what otherwise tends to just wash over us.
Wonderful, informative video. Do wonder if there should be a special category of recording awarded the tam-tam strike? Sort of a stateside version of the Penguin Rosette.
I've been waiting for this a long time since the Fifth is one of my favorite. Thanks!
There is also a Szell recording with the New York Philharmonic which is quite good. I heard it recently on my cable classical channel. No information given on date.
I find the fifth by Szell / Vienna spectacular with the plus of the precious sound of that great orchestra.
Jonn
I didn't discover Beethoven's Fifth from Judge Judy LOL. When I was a mere whippersnapper in the UK there was a TV series called "Manhunt". The theme tune was the opening of the Fifth. A friend of an uncle gave us a pile of LPs. Amongst them was the Fifth by the Pittsburgh under William Steinberg. I played the record. I liked the opening, but was disappointed by what followed. I played it again. Same. I played it a third time. I started liking other bits. I played it over and over again until I loved all of it. The rest is history. :-)
The Beethoven Fifth conducted by Mravinsky on Melodiya records is fascinating. VEry severe and disciplined.
I owe you a little (?) story: After the talk about the BEST Dvorak and the BEST Beethoven cycle, I was put on the trail of the Staatskapelle Berlin. For both composers, they successively did 'the best' and 'one of the best' cycles. I bought them both and searched for more Staatskappelle on youtube. And then I stumbeld upon the SURPRISE symphony: Beethoven 5th MIT DEM PAUKENWIRBEL(S). The live performance of SKB / Suitner in Japan in 1981. (find it, hear it!) Fascinating to see the contact between conductor and timpanist. And I get the strong feeling that this is about something they've been doing for years: "Hey, It's time for the timpani again !!" These extreme drumm-rolls... (1th mov. throughout, but especially the ending of it) i've never heard them so before (and even in the other recorded performances of Suitner, they are not that present). After listening to this one, I played my freshly bought Barenboim Beethovens: And for sure, that timpani-outburst-freedom-thing has entered the orchestra's genes... It gives you a big smile of recognition to hear that Barenboim - not always, but from time to time- does not get in the way to let them pound away! (4th and 9th especially). So, I realized: in the Barenboim recordings somewhere Suitner is around! But realizing that, all things fell nice in place: (and I want to thank Dave for his eyeopener remarks: "Get out of the way, let them play...") I was listening to a great orchestra with the fire of many great conductors in its belly.
Final thing: I asked myself about the Suitner Japan performance: Is it the recording / sonics / microphone placement? Or are these drumm-rolls real and meant so? I think the latter, it must be so...: That last gesture of Otmar Suitner, halfways the final chord of the last movement, it's 100% for the timpanist. Wow, I keep on smiling...
Thank you for sharing this. It's a wonderful story, and a great example of attentive listening.
Argh! You finally broke my resistance on the Kletzki cycle, which will be Beethoven cycle #10 for me (plus a few individual discs). Beethoven 5 is one of these pieces that always grabs me in a great performance, no matter how many times I hear it, because there are so many things to listen for as you point out in this video. It is the piece that hooked me into classical music.
I’ll go with Szell. Combining Classical and Romanticsm. The hair-pin dynamics gets goosebumps. Once again,DH, thank you for a succinct explanation of the work itself.
...the 1966 Concertgebouw performance !
I just now purchased the Kletzki Set on your incredible presentation.
NEEDS MORE COWBELL! Seriously though glad you brought up the importance of the bass parts in his symphonies. Watching your seventh symphony countdown now! I never get enough of that bass chromatic drone in the 4th mvmt near the end.
Fabulous talk, thanks David. A huge task for recommending just ten, then one! Something you said about Klemperer, sort of encapsulated why I like his recordings so much; he may be a little slow on occasions, but that's NEVER detrimental to the music. He has that quality of "keeping you on the edge of your seat." The 4th is another beautiful illustration; those plunging bass notes, really do take you down to unchartered depths.
I also find Kleiber (jr) not quite the ticket.
Dave, it's your fault that I got the Carlos Kleiber recordings of this and the 7th! Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I present to you as evidence Mr. Hurwitz's review from the Amazon page of this CD:
Long regarded as the quintessential interpretation of the most popular and best-loved symphony ever written, this performance of the Fifth has everything: passion, precision, drama, lyric beauty, and a coiled fury in the first movement that sets your pulse racing from the very first note. Carlos Kleiber has made very few recordings in his distinguished career, but almost all are special. If you own no other copy of this symphony, this is the one to get. It comes with an exceptional performance of the Seventh--not quite as gripping as the Fifth, but definitely one of the great ones. There is classical music, and there are classic recordings of classical music. This one's a classic. -- David Hurwitz
Looks right to me.
@@DavesClassicalGuide GUILTY!
@@MarauderOSU As charged! I hope you didn't suffer too much.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Dave, I did have to voice my disagreement in a kidding way. Normally, I do enjoy your insights and recommendations. In fact, I recently bought the Bernstein Conducts Stravinsky box set after viewing your video review. Of course, I love Leonard Bernstein anyway, but still, it was worth it overall.
I think in Dave’s defense. As time passes I think the ear and of course the mind changes opinion. There have been many stupendous 5ths since kleibers. I too have his 5th and 7th and I love the performances (that disc was one of my first ever classical purchases). But I recognize that new and in many cases superior performances have been recorded since. But isn’t that the beauty about this stuff? That despite the craziness in the recording music world, we are spoiled for choice and with technology we can literally listen to new interpretations at the touch of a mouse.
I've always liked Giulini and LAPO in this work, mainly because of his distinctive approach to the last movement. The Penguin Guide authors were pretty much spot on in this regard - "majesty in abundance". The recording quality is also outstanding (despite being early digital).
I personall adore Giulini LAPO performance. And I am in good company
Finally, someone who understands me and the nuances of this piece and how it needs to be played! I've never found a 5th that I've been particularly fond of (except maybe Karajan 1977). I often find myself throwing cds out my car window in disgust. I always, selfishly, thought young conductors would always be better here (newer is always better, right?). Barenboim, yawn. Battle, yawn. That was how little I knew until I watched this video and was introduced to many I hadn't heard of (or was never particularly interested in giving a chance). I must confess that I have now discovered the absolute perfect version. No, it's not Solti or Wand (all his are great except the 5th) or Kleiber or Klemperer or Gardiner or even Szell. It's Markevitch! I want to scream from the rooftops 'Peeeeeople! Thisssss!' Finally! A conductor and symphony who actually get it and understand the mighty Beethoven. You're telling me this is 195 freaking 8 and nobody has come close since?? Many thanks to you, Dave, for shedding light on all these versions. Second Place goes to Dorati and LSO (muy excelente) with honorable mention to Klemperer and Philharmonia in stereo.
Worth a follow 😊
As a blues/jazz musician I find I want to understand classical music better (have listened casually all my life). You are very articulate sir, and even a noob like me can understand. I have also felt some of what you explain about this particular piece, when listening intently. The echoes of that blissful 2nd? movement returning as part of the chaos.
To add to David's insightful and dazzling commentary, there are 2 sources of diverse knowledge and enjoyment of this thrilling symphony. One is Leonard Bernstein's NYP talk on the original sketches for the first movement with his explanation of why Beethoven rejected the. "Right as rain" was his apt conclusion. The other is "Adventures in Classical Music" by Peter Schickele. Goofy, off the wall, but insightful in how he gets us to think about the rule breaking creation that Beethoven gave us. No comment from Bobby Corno. Give it a listen. Btw, i revisited all my B9 recordings and the sleeper was Leinsdorf- BSO. Clarity, thrust, momentum, in tune singing by all, NEC! with fidelity to the score. Wow.
Greatly appreciated your analysis of Beethoven’s 5th. As to recordings, Wand’s NDR and Szell’s (but the Concertgebouw one on the CD with the Sibelius 2nd you also mentioned-and his Cleveland on LP) are two of my favorites. I have never liked Carlos Kleiber’s as much as his 7th, though it is certainly good.
Thanks David a wonderful-FUL talk - learnt so much - 😀
Appreciate the gong crash before the reveal of #1. Handy for those of us who are multitasking or listening while we pretend to work! Can't wait for those big Markevitch boxes.
Wonderful discussion of Beethoven's development and manipulation of thematic material. Your statement about the baselines is so true! Truly enjoyed this video!!!
Mr Hurwitz, it was a shock to open TH-cam today and not see an early morning video from you. I hope that this is an indication that you’re taking a well earned day off.
Thank you. Yes, I took a very short break, and appreciate your approval. Back tomorrow, though.
@@DavesClassicalGuide That's the downside of being generous to your fans: give yourself even a brief break, and everyone worries that you must be dying!
David mentioned it in passing and one comment also mentioned Bernstein, but no one has mentioned Bernstein's detailed analysis of the 1st movement of the Beethoven 5th in his "Omnibus" program on CBS TV (Nov. 14, 1954), in which he used B's discarded manuscripts, put some together and compared them with the final version and explained why B discarded them. I highly recommend this 33-minute talk (now available on DVD) with his analysis and performance (on the piano and with the NY Phil).
Remarkable explanation and analysis of the end of the first movement and the beginning of the finale. Thanks, I never noticed this. It is true that the final sounds very French. A former Napoleon soldier who had gone to the concert to listen to the fifth one stood up during the finale and shouted "Long live the Emperor!"
Thanks for this great review David. Your choice is spot-on. Fricsay is in a class of his own, but so fascinating as his Eroica, 7th and 9th. I would have also considered the early Jochum with Berlin and Van Kempen. Totally agree on Markevitch.
Great video plenty of insights about this masterwork. I have listened to this symphony hundreds of times and I have two choices: 1°Giulini/Los Angeles Philharmonic (DG Masters) and 2° Fricsay/Berliner Philharmoniker (DG Double). Bernstein/New York Philharmonic (Sony) was the biggest deception.
I have the Markevitch on Philips beethoven 5, wow such beautifuly recorded and conducted great enthusiasm and passion. I must hear the Dorati version as I always love the sound of the Mercury presence. The Szell rendition is so hard to find, you can listen to it on youtube but I want to hear it in all it's glory.
Your insights pointed my eyes to the trees beyond the forest - thank you
When I was growing up in the 60's, the recording to have was Reiner with Chicago (In the cover photo he's wearing a bright red sweater; he was such a relaxed guy!). Reiner usually is one of your top choices if he has recorded a work you are reviewing. I do remember in my cd version the sound is a bit distorted. Was wondering why he didn't make the cut. As always, a wonderfully informative and entertaining video!
I like the unfussy approach to the 5th. Wand is the man, and I love the warm, full RCA recording . Funny enough, I was listening to the Davis "Odyssey" Beethoven Box that you reviewed and his performance with the BBC is very exciting. Davis is mightily underrated but his early recordings of Beethoven are something else. That is one hell of a box. I thought I would throw a sleeper in.
I'm with you on Davis for sure.
Very happy to find your channel! Cheers
Welcome aboard!
David, thank you for your wonderful and very insightful review. Especially your comments on the bass lines with underlying melodies. As Beethoven's hearing diminished, though not fully gone when he wrote this magnificent symphony, his sensitivity to higher frequencies was lost first. There is speculation that this is what led to more emphasis on the mid range and bass notes. Though even an eventual total loss of hearing did not diminish the genius of his works, as superbly demonstrated in his ninth symphony. I have the Denon/PCM boxed set by Otmar Suitner conducting the Staatskapelle Berlin orchestra, recorded in the early 1980s.
My absolute most favorite transition in any work is between the third and fourth movement in his fifth symphony. Even with one note, Beethoven guides you to a glorious finish.
Awesome video! Thank you so much for helping us further understand, appreciate and enjoy this great music. I love the positiveness with which you refer to the referencial recordings, establishing that current music making is as enjoyable and good as the "sacred" recordings of past ages. That is refreshing! Love the videos! Please keep them coming!
I vote for Kletzki and Czech Philharmonic! It was my first LP together with „Horowitz at Home“ (DG). 😃
Oh, brilliant analysis David
This is wonderful!
Thanks Dave,
I was not upset by the ones you left out! I have the two EMI Klemperer Philharmonia recordings only these days, but grew up fifty years ago with Erich Kleiber's recording. At first I found the Klemperer a surprise, but not a bad surprise. The more I knew the music, the more I preferred the stereo Klemperer ...
I had the first movement structure explained to me at that time, and I knew the Haydn London Symphonies, where, scores in hand, I was expected to explain their [first movement] structures! I got rather good at it. I have always listened to music this way once I get to know it off by heart. Trying to discuss this sort of things with people who don't understand the significance of structure as an expressive and intensifying aspect of music and its performance, is impossible, but listening to you doing this is very nice for me.
Thanks from George
Thank YOU!
A marvellous, illuminating review, thank you. As you say, speed can be an issue in the first movement because you really want to hear what's going on. So many worthwhile recordings out there - I have always found KIemperer to be a genuinely persuasive interpretation but also, for different reasons, Carlos Kleiber's superbly played Vienna 5 and - in a different direction (and tempo) - Giulini's LA a truly remarkable approach with substance and commitment. But now I'll try to find Markevitch 5, can't wait to give it a careful listening.
simfono gia ton Giulini
David, you have allowed me to make some of the greatest personal finds in my musical adventures. Up there in the best include Jurowski's Tchaikovsky cycle, Masur's Mahler 9th, Jochum's DG Brahms cycle amongst many others. These recordings have struck me in works that had previously been difficult for me to fully love. In this video, I was once again shown the world of Fricsay's Beethoven. Now, when I see you recommend Fricsay in a Beethoven symphony, I know I'm in for a treat. His 5th, 7th and 9th have brought me immense pleasure. Thank you!
You are very welcome!
And then the dog saved the day. And the marriage. Wonderful performance indeed :-)
All jests aside, thank you for pointing out all the ways in which the subjects in the first movement are developed and transformed. I "studied" this symphony many times while listening, and I learned a lot by "just" listening, but your musical insights are always much greater than mine would ever be. A measured, accentuated(?) performance (like Kletzki's) would be my preference as well.
Markevitch with Lamoureux I have never heard before (among most other recordings, actually, the musical numskull that I am). I will certainly check it out, because I just love his Berlioz 'Symphonie Fantastique' with that same orchestra.
Thank you for a hugely enjoyable talk, some fascinating insights and, of course, your suggestions, some of which I wasn't familiar with.
However.........(Unfortunately, I have no tam tam).
One of my favourite versions: Glenn Gould !!!!
The sheer exuberance of his performance makes for compelling listening regardless of the piano transcription's inevitable limitations.
Mr B, just a humble tip in case you haven’t come across it yet. The 5th in piano transcription is well served on disc, with a few of my favorites being Katsaris, Scherbakov, (Leslie) Howard, and Biret. But, if you like the 5th, you will possibly like the two piano version of the 9th just as much, or more. Pludermacher & Planes is a great place to begin that exploration, IF you can find it at a reasonable price. In case this is already well known by you, kindly forgive my intrusion.
@@thomass.9167 Thank you for your suggestions. I am aware of , but not that familiar with, some the versions you mentioned. My mentioning the Gould version had more to do with him being one of my favourite pianists rather than anything else. (The Liszt transcription is, needless to say, an incredible tour-de-force.)
@@tarakb7606 Yes, I’m right there with you on Gould. Different in many ways, but to me different is good. What many forget when they dismiss him because of his quirks is that he recorded a whole lot more repertoire than just Bach and his own “vocal obligato”. But, of course you already know that. 😀
That was the first version, I heard. And maybe the recording, I heard most often in my life.
@@thomass.9167 Yes, he certainly made many wonderful recordings of composers other than Bach. And I liked his "vocal obligato" too! I always thought it added to the performance.
I have a recording of Beethoven 5 but it's on an old cassette tape by the Vienna philharmonic and Karl Bohm conducting. The sound of it in my opinion is great very Resonant a real joy to listen to it was part of a set that Marshall Cavendish brought out with a we book giving you the history of the times this was a weekly thing you picked up from news agents and it covered all the pearods of musical history the first issue included Beethoven 5 very nice recording on dg. Don't like listening to music that's to dry cnnt seem to get it on cd but I treasure it.
It was called the great composers and there music just for reference.
I never really "got" the second movement of this otherwise beloved symphony, until recently, when I found on TH-cam a remastering of a Toscanini performance of, believe it or not, 1931. I found the sound incredible for something from such an early date, but above all, it made the second movement live for me, which nobody, including Toscanini himself, had ever done before.
Oh, and a frisson is a shiver.
I know what it is.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Sorry. Pedantry is a professional vice - I am a retired translator.
I`m glad Solti`s Vienna recording made this list. It`s really quite extraordinary.
Solti recorded this symphony twice later on with the Chicago.
The mid-70`s stereo recording is nearly as great as this previous Vienna one, but you can`t find it on a single disc. You have to buy the boxset.
His digital 80`s one is pretty good, but not great.
Your taste in Beethoven 5 is impeccable, Dave. The Kletzki is my favorite right now, with perfectly phrased, lyrical tempi and vibrant woodwinds. Mackerras and Liverpool aren’t far behind for being eminent HIPsters without using HIP instruments, and I love listening to Klemperer and Fricsay chew the fat. Personally, I’d drop the E. Kleiber; not much there to make it stand out in a crowd in my view. I’d also fudge the Top Ten to include Szell with Cleveland. It’s the 5th I grew up listening to and boy does that Cleveland precision come put to play. I guess I should say the Cleveland stereo recording on Sony. I haven’t actually heard the Markevitch, so I’ll keep on listening!
I have the Szell, C. Kleiber and the Fricsay but was wondering about any opinion on a more recent interpretation that I really like -- Ashkenazy and Philharmonia. It's bold, fiery and impassioned coupled with an exciting 7th.
Thank you so much for sharing your insights. Will help me listen with fresh ears! Would like to put in a word for Steinberg and Pittsburgh for their beautiful playing and warm full bodied sound. Steinberg always seems to me to hit the perfect tempo in Beethoven.
That was my entry into the work as a youth, via my dad's lp collection and very good it is too; it's dramatic without ever sounding heavy
I was imprinted by The Karajans '62. It still is one of my favorites. His second part still moves me the most deep. Szell is a little on the sloppy side to me. Not controlling pace as good as Karajan. His pauzes are so short no good tension is build up. Szell does that a lot...its kinda spontanious but on the sloppy spontanious side. Just listen carefully to it. You will recognize it. Also his span of rhythm is sort of without the right tension.
Hurwitz is again and again a Szell lover. Its a more easy listening approach of this iron classical pieces. Of course he will dislike me mentioning this. Its my opinion. Just listen carefully ..
My all time favorite because of the thrilling tempo variations is Dohnanyi with the Cleveland Orchestra on Telarc. The last part, particularly the slowly building crescendo, is perfect from the Concertgebouw Orchestra with Sawallish. Just perfect tension... Also love the insider version of Gielen who also has to deal with the difficulties the orchestra is not totally capable off. All of these compared to
. Haitink
. Karajan 70's
. Karajan 80's
. Klemperer
. Guilini lapo
. Multi philh
. Maazel
. Zinman
. De Vriend
. Neumann
. Jansons
. Kleiber
. Fricsay
. Bohm
. Barenboim
. Bernstein
. Harnoncourt...
etc etc
"Jekyll & Hyde-type characters" of the second theme discussion was fantastic! I never noticed that before in the coda. *Addendum* -- I have to wonder though about the "de-fanging" of the noble horn. Because it's not truly "defanged" since it comes back in the Recap. And if the original form can still survive then perhaps the intent is something different?
Thank you so much for opening up my ears to recordings that I had never listened to. The Erich Kleiber and the Markevitch versions really blew my mind in particular.
Glad you enjoyed it!
David, "frisson" in French is actually a 'shiver' but it can also mean a 'thrill' Love your appreciation and selection of this most famous symphony... thank you for knowing about the link in the 5th's last movement and its associations with French revolutionary street songs.. that is why is was adored by the French the first time it was heard there.
I did what has become a bit of a habit - I watched this video and went onto Amazon and snapped up the last copy of an Eloquence recording they had in Australia (for a ridiculously low price) - this time Solti’s Vienna 3,5 and 7. It arrived today. I did a side by side with C. Kleiber, and yes, the Solti comes out more fiery, passionate and less slick. The Kleiber in comparison is slick, skilled and efficient. Like a really good vacuum cleaner. I lost focus easily. Solti held my focus. So did Kletzki when I threw him on as well.
I will also… however… put in a good word for Les Siécles and Roth. There are caveats - the split chords are dumb, the brass are underpowered - but there are good moments of passion and fire. The French instruments and attitude do it better than the other HIP recordings out there.
Thanks for the input, and for taking the time to listen.
It's true about the scherzo... That is the one lacuna in Szell's reading of the symphony.... But, an interesting effect of repeating the scherzo is, it hypnotises you into thinking one-key music is dull and repetitive. Proto-Berlioz - in fact, proto-Stravinsky, - but, especially at a more relaxed tempo, it assuages the maelstrom of power politics from the first two movements. By the end of the scherzo, especially if it's repeated, and, especially if you labour it like the Blessed Szell does in Cleveland, and especially if you're me at 17 years old, you are only conscious that this simple rhythm is beginning to annoy you and you wish it would turn into something else. This adds great weight to the finale.
That Sid Caesar skit was gold! Thanks for pointing it out
Speaking of early Solti, love that Tchaikovsky 5th Symphony with the Paris Conservatory Orchestra.
Hi David! I'm enjoying your channel. I have three categories for Beethoven symphonies: best performance, best performance as part of a cycle, and period instruments. I'll eliminate no. 3 right away simply because, while there is historical interest in hearing a period instrument performance, they're simply weak compared to the superior dynamism and expressiveness of a modern orchestra. So, my vote for a stand-alone performance will be the Carlos Kleiber / Wiener Philharmoniker issue. For best performance as part of a cycle, I go with my fave Schmidt-Isserstedt / Wiener Philharmoniker.
Agreed, Schmidt-Isserstedt's was a great cycle. I knew him personally - I'm that old...
When I started collecting classical (ugh!) music recordings, I went through a Decca period (LPs) and that included the Erich Kleiber Beethoven 5th and 'Pastoral' and, like you, I still feel strongly about his 5th. I also feel strongly about his son's 5th. There are a couple of performances you didn't discuss that I like but I won't mention them here.
Really loved that, and I'm going to investigate the recordings here I don't know. Only disagree with one thing, that repeat in the finale is, for me, possibly the most important in all music. Beethoven's fifth is all about defiance so when that big arpeggio statement returns the battle is close to being won, it brings emphasis and a refusal to subside,it's saying ' I'm not going I'm still here!' As I said though I loved this enthusiasm for one of the greatest of symphonies and what fun we'd be missing if we agreed on everything.
Great stuff Dave. I have to admit that I don't really like this symphony that much (I'm not fond of the 9th either). There's so much else to listen to!
But I do think where there is a question of so much musical famiosity, and so many recordings, that questions of how much time and energy to compare you have and also how things struck you when you first listened are important. My first recording of this was Ormandy, actually, on an LP with utterly ludicrous liner notes (something about "the seven league boots of Zarathustra" or whatever!) Even as a teen I knew that was ridiculous. Plus I've had to sit through the finale at University graduation ceremonies for years (believe me, this does not endear you to the music). Incidentally I have listened to many other recordings of this over time.
I like Szell and also I recall when I first heard Bruggen's first recording (which must have been one of the first HIP ones) and I was very excited at the time. I don't know why I have these feelings about it, maybe its the ubiquity? Maybe its the militarism, which is one of Beethoven's liabilities given the period in which he was writing. But I just can't love this work. Its very rare that I intentionally decide to listen to it.
Thank you as always for another illuminating talk, David. As someone here mentioned in an earlier post, I look forward to seeing Eloquence release big boxes of Markevitch's DG and Philips recordings soon. I wonder if he got this much praise from critics and listeners when he died in 1983. And I wouldn't mind seeing Decca release a box of early Solti recordings from London and Vienna either.
the first one minute 30 odd seconds of the Markevitch finale, wow!
I sometimes compare performances using audio editing software. It s very helpful
Markevitch
What a nice conductor
Sad we don't know him more
Great job Dave! You put an enlightening reason on the fact that I don't really like the much praised Honeck version with Pittsburgh: good sounding recording, slick orchestra sound, but just too blasted FAST.
Also, not everybody realizes that the first movement starts with a rest (actually, the first three times you hear the tune, they all start with rests). This almost subconscious boost really launches the mayhem that starting on the beat wouldn't do.
So glad you mentioned those earIy Solti/VPO recordings of 3,5,7 - I have early Decca pressings of these and they are sensational. I am slowly working my way through your recommendations, many of which I did not know. Dorati - wow!!! One real find is the Markevitch cycle which I was able to track down on youtube - glorious stuff (just listened to his Leonore 3 - again, wow!). I see there is a somewhat pricey set of these Beethoven recordings (the one you hold up), but in another video you mention that Eloquence is going to be issuing some Markevitch boxes. Maybe worth waiting for that - do you have any more info.? Also, I recently acquired the SACD box of the Kubelik cycle with different orchestras, remastered by the Emil Berliner studios (not the Pentatone versions). It is a revelation - the improvement in the sound is jaw-dropping and allows these performances to come alive in a way I'd never really heard before (I own the cycle on Japanese LPs). I've now picked up several of these Emil Berliner remasterings of DGG recordings on SACD and they are equally revelatory. It's as if we've never heard how really good the sound was on DGG master tapes.
Marevitch should be coming in the next couple of months.
For me, the desert island choice is Antal Dorati/London Symphony on Mercury Living Presence.
Thank you. I have found MY Beethoven 5. It's Dorati It's extraordinary.
I hold Klemperer's Beethoven in generally high regard; the Beethoven 5 that he recorded in 1968 with the Vienna Philharmonic is the one I currently turn to when I wish to hear his interpretation. I think that it was the first review that I read in Fanfare under your name.
Wow! That was a while ago, but it's a splendid performance.
My father loved Mozart and regarding Beethoven's symphonies commented to me more than once, 'What's he doing with those drums?'' i think he has a point-- not in the composing but in the recording. A lot of times the drums are recorded at too high levels and muddy the waters (because Beethoven's instruments should be clear). Do we know where Beethoven had the bass drum placed within the orchestra?
He didn't use a bass drum in the 5th, only in the 9th.
Of your top ten list, I have five of them. Wand, Erich Kleiber, Kletzki, Szell and Markevitch. My most recent addition is the Markevitch, which I got after your talk on the ideal Beethoven cycle. His last movement certainly trumps Carlos Kleiber's in my opinion. Thanks Dave.
Hi David any opinion on Herbert Blomstedt's Dresden Beethoven cycle? Very cheap at the moment , as is Kletzki's and thinking of buying both!
Thanks David, I just read your review at Classics Today that Blomstedt's Beethoven 10/10 . and both sets cheaper than one Karajan set, I'm going shopping!
What do you think of Scherchen’s live recording with the Orchestra della Radio della Svizzera Italiana? It is one of the most amazing craziest performances in my opinion
A hot mess--fun occasionally.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I understand what you say, there are many mistakes and the orchestra very often is not together. But there is so much energy and spirit especially towards the end of the work
@@KostisKritsotakis As I said, it can be fun, but there's more to professional music-making than being fast and loud. Frankly, a community orchestra today under a not-very-talented local guy could do just as well. If Scherchen's name were not attached to that performance, no one would listen to it twice, and that's the simple truth! It's important not to confuse mere sloppiness with "spirit" or "character."
You will think I'm crazy, but I find Boulez's Fifth magical (Columbia/Sony). The 1st movement is much slower than the average, but it sparkles. It sounds neoclassical--in the modern sense. I don't think he ever recorded Beethoven again. Allegro con Boulez!~
Hey, if you like it, then you like it. There is no performance so terrible that there isn't someone who loves it, and that's just fine with me.
I know my musical taste is often at odds with Dave's and maybe others over here. But just to rise a flag: my favorite 5th is Furtwängler's 1954 studio recording with the Vienna Philharmonic. Klemperer 1955 or 1951 (with the Wiener Symphoniker) follows closely.
That's fair. Furtwangler could be a great Beethoven conductor, although he famously almost never could get the strings to play together at the opening of the 5th.
@@DavesClassicalGuide The strings? Rather the wind instruments on the first reprise, but more often so with the Berliner. Not to talk about the horns in the Scherzo of the Eroica, they always seem out of tune (with both VPO and BPO). But, in spite of this, I hope you'll "bring him in" when you will review the 3rd, his first and second movements are, IMO of course, above anybody else (the 1944 with the VPO or the 1952 with BPO).
But, if we may disagree on Furtwängler, I agree with you about Carlos Kleiber, although ALL my friend musicians tell me I'm wrong.
Its important to repeat the exposition in the last movement as it makes the development sound more dramatic.
Um, no it doesn't.
Thank you, especially for the Kletzki, I don't remember ever heard it. Makes one want to go back to the hall too. "Genius of transforming themes". Beg your pardon. Out of subject : can Mahler 5 1st movement be viewed as a take on or a reply Beethoven's 5 fate theme (among others)? He could not make records, though he perhaps made thoughtful editions of the symphonies. And am I right to hear the 'tamed passage' of Beethoven 1st movement you mention in works like Sibelius Tapiola (invertedly) in at say 14'25 under Neeme Jarvi? For sure this is meaningful material. Or Brahms 1st stands alone in musical 'literature'?
You hear what you hear. It's all good. Whether or not it's plausible is another issue.
very enlightening analysis of transformed second theme in coda -- we tend to forget what a sovereign musical intelligence LvB represents
I love how the submissive noble second subject goes over to the dark side of the first subject in the first movement, only to come back expanded and triumphant in the finale, when the earlier first subject is weakened into more of a rhythm here.