I have watched lots of AP's videos and I don't see any of the bitterness you are alleging. I think you are likely projecting your own feelings onto him.
This is certainly a lot of assumptions to make about a real, actual, living person. The idea that making such personal and unknowable proclamations about someone's personal and emotional state is at all appropriate is a demonstration of the emotionally and socially immature culture from which Abraham Piper has come. I have never heard him speak badly of any particular person. Yet here you are putting an individual on public judgment, making claims you can't possibly know. I'm glad he has left this kind of world.
@MickJagger-el6of It's ironic that you are also making an assumption of a stranger on the Internet. The idea that making such an unknowable proclamation about someone is at all appropriate is also a demonstration of the emotionally and socially immature culture that I mentioned above, and that I am so glad I left. I hope that you also find the opportunity to grow beyond judgment and into curiosity.
@MickJagger-el6of I repeated myself intentionally, to demonstrate that you are doing literally the exact same thing that I originally described. And you are doing it, still. I remember also having difficulty seeing folks as they are, and hearing what they are actually saying when I was bound by a worldview that categorized and judged folks I had not even met. It was like a wall between myself and others that hindered my connection because ideology told me who I was talking to before they even spoke. I've since been practicing trading judgment for curiosity, and matured a great deal in the way I interpret others, and how I interact with them. I'm not sure if that is why you seem to be struggling. But, I'm curious! I invite you to also be curious about yourself and others. One way is to start by asking questions, even before assumptions or prejudgments, such as the ones made in this video, or in your comments. It's very beautiful, the change it can make in your social interactions.
@MickJagger-el6of See, you're the one that brought objective truth into the conversation, because of this difficulty I'm describing. I was talking about judgment, assumptions, curiosity, and the ability to hear what others are saying, being able to see others as they are presenting themselves. I have been talking about learning to listen. And in that world, keeping to the subject, I would say that the kind of truth to be discovered is subjective, and learned through active listening and curiosity. Empathy helps, too.
@MickJagger-el6of I didn't answer whether or not truth is objective. I stuck to my point, and answered that the truth of which I am speaking is subjective. If you do not understand that some truth - such as someone's personal experiences and feelings - are subjective, then we are at the heart of your difficulty with hearing and seeing others. There are truths that you cannot know until others tell you, because they exist within that person. I'm truly sorry that you are having trouble understanding this. I remember when I had the same difficulty.
@MickJagger-el6of Of course, I still struggle with this, as well. It's taken a lot of practice. And I hope to continue to grow in how I hear, empathize with, and understand others. I'm glad that you are happy with your journey in discovering objective truth. I invite you to take that innate, male curiosity of yours and apply it to learning about the subjective experiences of others.
@@alfredluna7016 that would only apply if I believed it the way you do... and I don't, so I'm not too worried. God and I are on good terms, thank you very much. 😂
@ronald968 I doubt it. In fact, I don't believe in hell and I'm not afraid of death. I've sat vigil for several people I love, including my husband quite recently. Dying simply takes us to the next great adventure.
I was raised in a very strict fundamental context, and I was excommunicated (shunned, marked to be avoided) at age 17. A few years later, at the age of 25, I met the living God while walking in a park in Virginia. He has been with me ever since, and He has given me a life that I could never have fathomed. Christianity is just like any other religion, until you meet the true God personally. This is what happened to me, and I am forever grateful. For everyone making so many assumptions about Abraham, you seem to forget that he's still breathing, and he may yet meet the TRUE and LIVING God and everything would change then. Back away and give it time.
This gives me hope for my employer who I am learning was once a prominent man in our church before he walked away from the faith. We know alot of the same people because I started going to the church where he once was before me. I know alot of people are praying for him.
"Attacking" fundamentalism has nothing to do with being bitter. Abraham Piper has explicitly stated multiple times that the reason he focuses so much on fundamental Christianity is because it is what he is most familiar with. He always says that he doesn't think it is his place to criticize religions that he knows nothing about. I do not see him as being bitter or hurt. I simply see him as a person who finally saw through the BS and got out.
Except he doesn’t give reasons for “BS” . He doesn’t once engage with theology. He just rants against Straw mans that no theologian’s believe in. If you think he does…please give an example ( or your just begging the question)? it is anger. Very quite easy to recognize actually, he attacks people and not the arguments . If your gonna criticize a persons belief, criticize that belief and not your own distortion of that belief.
@@MJ-tj3nd attacks people and not the arguments? I have never once seen him attack a particular person. Ever. However, we are commenting on a video that does exactly that.
Well, if you’re taught that God doesn’t love everyone and that he has chosen many to be condemned to hell before they were even born, what other outcome would you expect?
What no one is saying is the AP was excommunicated at age 19 by his Church family and his Father whom he esteemed. Thanks for bringing that out. Yes that could be pretty damaging causing the bitterness we see.
He doesn’t seem bitter at all. He very intelligent and articulate and the arguments he has are solid. Christian Fundamentalism is highly toxic and destructive for many MANY people and people are starting to finally escape it, heal from it, and analyze it.
Don’t know the reason could be Calvinism or sin. Or both in some sense that has embittered him to Jesus. I’ll leave it at that, sad be praying for Abraham Piper and John Piper. 🙏
To be harsh but fair, I think the fact that you think a video like this is okay, publicly examining the spiritual and psychological motivations of a particular man, and as a pastor, is a pretty telling example of how damaging the church can be.
Abraham Piper chose to go to war against the truth and has a daily impact on at least a million people a day. Anyone choosing to attempt to expose his lies is a natural course.
It's a very natural reaction. Anytime someone leaves the faith, but especially when it's someone knowledgeable and public, there is a scramble to resolve any dissonance with a narrative. "they just left because they wanted to sin" "they were bitter at god" "they were never a real christian" - these sorts of narratives are a natural tribal defense mechanism.
It's not a good trend. We're more and more a society that walks around with tattoos and piercings and claiming that legalizing marijuana is somehow a good thing. How stupid.
According to Calvinism and depending on how you read some verses, yep. Gawd created Abraham Piper for destruction. He has no choice in the matter. Calvinism is a literal, logical, reasonable, and therefore vile interpretation of Christianity.
I thought this was going to be some actual criticism of things he's said, not a bunch of assumptions. The lack of self awareness in this video is giving me some serious secondhand embarrassment. I only recently discovered Abraham piper and I suppose that's why this video popped up. So I'm not like going to bat for him or anything. But I haven't gotten any of this vibe from the videos of his that I've watched. I mean, of course he's going to criticize the flavor of Christianity he was raised in. That's what he actually has experience with. I was not raised Christian so I can't speak from experience. I only know what I've witnessed from the outside. And all I'm going to say about that is until Christians start taking responsibility for the trauma they put people through, especially children, and start fixing the problems within the church, your numbers are going to keep falling. And you can blame this, that, or the other all the way to extinction if that makes you feel better. I think religion will probably always exist. Even though more and more people are turning away from it simply because they don't believe or don't need it or whatever, there will always be a subset of the population that needs to believe it. And that's fine. But Christianity, specifically, is going to die out if y'all don't take some responsibility for the issues within your religion! You're traumatizing kids and sending them out into the world where they learn they don't need religion...of COURSE they're going to leave it behind! Even if they still believe in God, they're going to leave behind the institutionalized religion. I have probably a dozen friends that were raised Christian and are now atheists. They never would have remained Christian simply because they can't make themselves believe in a deity. But I have another half a dozen friends that are "spiritual" but left Christianity because they can't deal with the bs. You're not just losing those that become atheists. You're losing those that believe too! But you want to blame everybody else rather than examine and reconcile the real issues. So....good luck with that.
This is exactly the type of judgmental nonsense that likely made him walk away from the church. Y'all really need to take a page out of Jesus's book. Literally. Jesus was extremely accepting and non-judgmental, even of those who did not believe in G-d. So the fact that you claim to follow him and yet will publicly scrutinize this human being who is doing his best and is ABSOLUTELY within his rights leave the faith tells me that you have never truly understood the Bible. His choice to self-actualize is literally none of your business.
@@heyitsme881 He also said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." It's not up to this guy to judge another man's faith or lack thereof. That belongs to God alone.
@@heyitsme881 Why isn't faith considered a sin? It literally is bearing false witness, lying. I would think if someone who knows what is good and evil would know that belief without evidence is wrong. Downright manipulative.
It's about natural talents. The parents are to notice the natural abilities of a kid (handy or creative or building.....) things that come easily to him/her then train them in that direction. Later in life they will do well in that sphere. Not a reference to spiritual things.
A proverb is more like we a rule of thumb, it is not a prophecy or a promise. The book of Proverbs is classified as “wisdom” literature. It is not prophecy. Not to be too abrupt, but if you don’t know the difference, you can look it up yourself as it would take too long to explain here, and I get the impression that most of the people in this comments section would not appreciate nor care for my explanation.
John Piper preaches a hard gospel in which there is no hope for people who continue in sin (like every man I’ve ever known). Coming to Jesus only gets God on our side. Then your works get you to “final salvation.” Never mentioned is how many or how pure those works have to be. There is no real peace in resting in God. Strenuous effort must be made. Daily. Like Roman Catholicism without the hope of purgatory.
BTW, On second listening of your video I heard you open with "Grace To You." On Christmas Eve two years ago, I went to Walmart to exchange a jacket I'd bought for my father for a larger one. I also had other shopping to do. As it turns out they closed customer service early that day in preparation for an early store closing. When I was leaving I carried on me two receipts - one for the shirt I'd brought in and the other for my new purchases. They didn't even bother checking my receipts but grabbed me and placed me in a security room beside the entrance. Even after I produced the two receipts the young Hispanic security men seemed not to have the language skills necessary to comprehend the words coming from my mouth. The processed me like a criminal, took a mugshot , then released me with a ticket and a court date. Walmart had just announced on the news that day they were cracking down on shoplifting and the guards were overly aggressive in their desire to meet manager's expectation of action against thieves. I have never shoplifted in my life, even as a child. At 58, I did not suddenly decide to embark on a shoplifting dare. I would sue Walmart but honestly, they are not worthy of my presence and my breath. I will never step inside a Walmart for as long as I live. I don't speak Spanish and their security men don't speak with competence any of my five languages, English, Japanese, Czech, Kindness, and Respect. At any rate, one memory stands out. I was ready for trial. I had witnesses, I had my receipts. At the courthouse, they assembled the jury to hear my case but when push came to shove, the security agents decided not to show up and the case was dismissed. Finally, my nightmare was over. When my wife and I got to our car to leave, we looked at the license plate directly in front of us. It read GTY 0935, which we understood to mean"Grace To You, from your Lord, Christ 935US."
I’m sorry but excommunicating a teenager? Insanely stupid move. You tell your son to go his own way in a private fashion and to come back when he is ready. Acting as if you are the Papacy for a flipping teenager is cringy and wrong. Especially your own son. Not even the Catholic Church pulls out the excommunication card these days without SERIOUSLY screwing up
Thank you sharing this. I’m not Tik Tok literate so I hadn’t heard about the situation. As a parent it was comforting to hear your words of compassion for John Piper. It is painful to see our children walking away from the faith and makes us feel helpless as parents.
John piper probably comforts him self by telling himself that God is doing this to test his faith. The stories people will make up to assuage their cognitive dissonance. How can you worship a god who would use your own child’s rebellion to test you? Oh wait. We’re talking about a God who would ask someone to kill their son just to test them. Funny how nobody acknowledges how traumatized Isaac must have been. Thank God it never really happened.
Thankfully young people are starting to wise up and abandon these abusive churches. People aren’t willing to endure decades of abusive Christianity anymore.
are.. are you Bill? how does a guy making content on a platform that you claim you're not on because of your age become such a focus for you? has he somehow made your God smaller? wouldn't that say more about you than him?
Calvinism is the admission that God has already decided EVERYTHING before it even started and WE are just powerless and expendable actors. In addition, it also means that God and His incarnation as Jesus are ALL that really matter and not US. Calvinism is to come to terms with the fact that WE are the servants of God and subordinate to Him and not the other way round, whether we like it or not, leave it to take it. Calvinism demands a person be able to shift the centre of the Universe from themselves to Jesus AND be glad for it. Jesus was a Calvinist, this is pretty obvious from the Gospels. However, there is hope for those who accept this uncomfortable reality because God is NOT like us (thanks God!) and decided to leave Heaven to come here among us, who betray and disobey Him constantly, to save us from our moral corruption by letting us execute Him unjustly so that He can give us Grace for the sin we so love and allow us to live with Him forever free from the desire of sin. And what does He ask in exchange for it? Repentance. Yet, we prefer our sins to this offer and constantly turn against Him and accuse Him of being a monster, a dictator, an oppressor and so on.
ive watched some of (albeit not a large amount) of the things abraham piper has put out...and alot of what ive seen makes little sense...he tends to use alot of double talk and logical falacies in his videos and cites them as "evidence" against the ideas of religion (while he claims to be specifically targeting christianity,if we were to adapt his mind set this would go against theology in general not just evengelicals or christians). for instance one of his videos he claims that it is impossible to believe in god...not that believing in god is wrong,or immoral...that it humans are actually incapable of believing in the concept of a deity. he says that we can only believe in an "idea" of something....as if that is something completely different when its not he also atests that free will is completely non existent, that we are completely helpless to the influence of external sources.
Calvinism and Reform theology, presents God or the nature of God in a way that in truth is enough to have people turn away from the faith. It is a Religion that does not focus on the teachings of Jesus but rather Calvinism thought. and doctrines that are not Biblical. Jesus did not come bringing a religion. He brought a Kingdom Hopefully at some point he will meet some people who preach the Kingdom. He is one of God's children. He is probably right to criticize the Pharisitical elk of Mac Arthur, Piper White, Washer etc.
Excommunicate your 19 year old son because he loses his faith? The Bible I believe in tells that a shepherd goes and finds his wanderer sheep and lovingly brings it back. He doesn’t excommunicate it.
As a former Christian myself after over 40 years as a professing and believing Christian I agree with and understand what he says, specifically about evangelicalism and fundamentalism. I too was raised in a fundie home. Anger was a result of recanting. I recanted because of the evidence I came across. Like pretty much every person that leaves Christianity doesn't choose to do it willingly. My anger was due to reflecting on my upbringing. What my parents believed. What they were taught and what they and the church and those we looked up to taught me. What I once accepted as reasonable and true now sickens me.
@MickJagger-el6of I have some sad news for you too. You're not saying anything I haven't heard before, or thought before when I was a Christian. It's quite an exclusive club many Christians mentally live in, thinking only they and not most professing Christians are believers. It gets so exclusive that there's hundreds, if not thousands of denominations, and if you asked every person who professed to be a Christian you'd get a spectrum of beliefs spanning millions of people. Many who were raised, trained, discipled, etc. Furthermore, as I don't believe there is a god, you are just as much a Christian as I was. In addition, if I never was a Christian, well, glad I didn't die continuing to live a lie I continued to tell myself was true. I'm also well aware about faith, works, and professions of faith. It's generally not a good look for oneself to make assumptions and project onto other people. Sidebar, don't use big theological and apologetic terms made up by men to try to explain their convoluted beliefs. Monergism... It comes off as arrogant, obtuse, and just throwing big words around to make you seem smart.
@MickJagger-el6of I wonder how much you've listened to non-Christians and former Christians talk about belief, and more importantly what Christianity believes. I don't believe any longer in the truth of the Bible. And I don't believe any longer that Jesus was divine or a savior
@MickJagger-el6of With all due respect, right back at you. I was raised in an evangelical, fundamentalist church and environment, thus what you spout is nothing new to me. I've heard it all before. I believed and spouted a lot of it myself as well. It's utter dreck and one of the reasons I am dealing with feelings of disdain for fundamentalism and Christianity in general. You needn't listen to my responses? You keep coming back. I encourage you to check out people like Paulogia or Matt Dillahunty. Or Tim on Harmonic Atheist. And actually listen. And set aside, for a while, your presuppositions that anything they say is automatically wrong purely because it does not align with what you believe or think. But, I warn you. I do not recommend calling their shows (Matt and Paul's) because they will shred your arguments. And you can take that to the bank.
@MickJagger-el6of For a Christian you're awfully unloving having a conversation with, especially someone you don't know and don't know anything about. I gave them as examples of places you could go to listen to detailed discussions and arguments. Comment threads are really not the place. Not for apologetics, polemics, or evangelism. Not are you winning yourself any points trying to belittle me. But, it's par for the course in my experience. You're welcome to the last word. It's pretty clear you enjoy it
Abraham seems to be a tragic case-in-point that there is a kind of 'dumb' one can be only when they're pretty smart. He's clearly on the far side of the intellectual curve. But, his arguments and claims are often barely passable as logical reasoning. They are, however, often emotionally persuasive, a thing which works very well (as does all sophistry) on people of similar intellect and rebellion.
I think you're right that he's hurt. My guess is spiritual abuse of sorts. What i mean by that is that John Piper's own deterministic view of God is actually quite horrific. I'll go so far as to say that Calvinism is a very popular blasphemy of God. God does not predestine some people to heaven and the rest to hell. God wills that none should perish, but that all would inherit eternal life. Unfortunately, God's will is not always (or even usually) done. We have free will, the will to choose either God and His will, or not God or His will. And when you're brought up in a community where everyone believes in that sadistic god that predestines some people to hell, how could you like that god? That god is unlikeable. And yet, lots of people do. Some people (like Abraham Piper) are coherent enough to say, "Wait a second..." It's just a shame that this faulty theology has all but turned Abraham from God altogether. I hope he finds the True God. Not only is it destructive to those in that belief system, it's preventative to a lot of unbelievers whose main questions revolve around the sovereignty of God and the problem of evil. It's all very sad.
@@See-wf8ce One who is such a strict adherent to the presuppositions provided by a secular humanistic worldview that they typically become preachy, and usually lack the ability to apply consistent, internal critique.
The elephant in the room is Calvinism. Calvismism is a false gospel. If Calvinism were true, John Piper loves Abraham Piper more than Jesus loves Abraham Piper.
I am not an atheist. I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob-I do not accept the doctrines of the trinity, Calivinism, or that Jesus is "the messiah" since that is not scripturally sound doctrine. People are leaving Christianity because it is another inherited lie. People must accept that God's people are the Jews, and that only when the Jews return to keep the commandments will he bless all nations through them.
I have watched lots of AP's videos and I don't see any of the bitterness you are alleging. I think you are likely projecting your own feelings onto him.
Yeah right fake 😅😅😅😅😅
This is certainly a lot of assumptions to make about a real, actual, living person. The idea that making such personal and unknowable proclamations about someone's personal and emotional state is at all appropriate is a demonstration of the emotionally and socially immature culture from which Abraham Piper has come. I have never heard him speak badly of any particular person. Yet here you are putting an individual on public judgment, making claims you can't possibly know. I'm glad he has left this kind of world.
@MickJagger-el6of It's ironic that you are also making an assumption of a stranger on the Internet. The idea that making such an unknowable proclamation about someone is at all appropriate is also a demonstration of the emotionally and socially immature culture that I mentioned above, and that I am so glad I left. I hope that you also find the opportunity to grow beyond judgment and into curiosity.
@MickJagger-el6of I repeated myself intentionally, to demonstrate that you are doing literally the exact same thing that I originally described. And you are doing it, still. I remember also having difficulty seeing folks as they are, and hearing what they are actually saying when I was bound by a worldview that categorized and judged folks I had not even met. It was like a wall between myself and others that hindered my connection because ideology told me who I was talking to before they even spoke. I've since been practicing trading judgment for curiosity, and matured a great deal in the way I interpret others, and how I interact with them. I'm not sure if that is why you seem to be struggling. But, I'm curious! I invite you to also be curious about yourself and others. One way is to start by asking questions, even before assumptions or prejudgments, such as the ones made in this video, or in your comments. It's very beautiful, the change it can make in your social interactions.
@MickJagger-el6of See, you're the one that brought objective truth into the conversation, because of this difficulty I'm describing. I was talking about judgment, assumptions, curiosity, and the ability to hear what others are saying, being able to see others as they are presenting themselves. I have been talking about learning to listen. And in that world, keeping to the subject, I would say that the kind of truth to be discovered is subjective, and learned through active listening and curiosity. Empathy helps, too.
@MickJagger-el6of I didn't answer whether or not truth is objective. I stuck to my point, and answered that the truth of which I am speaking is subjective. If you do not understand that some truth - such as someone's personal experiences and feelings - are subjective, then we are at the heart of your difficulty with hearing and seeing others. There are truths that you cannot know until others tell you, because they exist within that person. I'm truly sorry that you are having trouble understanding this. I remember when I had the same difficulty.
@MickJagger-el6of Of course, I still struggle with this, as well. It's taken a lot of practice. And I hope to continue to grow in how I hear, empathize with, and understand others. I'm glad that you are happy with your journey in discovering objective truth. I invite you to take that innate, male curiosity of yours and apply it to learning about the subjective experiences of others.
I'm in my 60s, am a big fan of Abraham Piper and understand completely why he left the faith.
Christians nowadays, specially white american christians (I'm not saying this lightly) have become very toxic and too political.
You're wrong.
And you'll spend eternity in Hell if you don't get right with God.
No excuse is valid according to Scripture.
@@alfredluna7016 that would only apply if I believed it the way you do... and I don't, so I'm not too worried. God and I are on good terms, thank you very much. 😂
@ronald968 I doubt it. In fact, I don't believe in hell and I'm not afraid of death. I've sat vigil for several people I love, including my husband quite recently. Dying simply takes us to the next great adventure.
I was raised in a very strict fundamental context, and I was excommunicated (shunned, marked to be avoided) at age 17. A few years later, at the age of 25, I met the living God while walking in a park in Virginia. He has been with me ever since, and He has given me a life that I could never have fathomed. Christianity is just like any other religion, until you meet the true God personally. This is what happened to me, and I am forever grateful. For everyone making so many assumptions about Abraham, you seem to forget that he's still breathing, and he may yet meet the TRUE and LIVING God and everything would change then. Back away and give it time.
This gives me hope for my employer who I am learning was once a prominent man in our church before he walked away from the faith. We know alot of the same people because I started going to the church where he once was before me. I know alot of people are praying for him.
Perfectly said I agree, to me his channel is a cry to God. I pray for Abraham and his family.
"Attacking" fundamentalism has nothing to do with being bitter. Abraham Piper has explicitly stated multiple times that the reason he focuses so much on fundamental Christianity is because it is what he is most familiar with. He always says that he doesn't think it is his place to criticize religions that he knows nothing about. I do not see him as being bitter or hurt. I simply see him as a person who finally saw through the BS and got out.
Except he doesn’t give reasons for “BS” . He doesn’t once engage with theology. He just rants against Straw mans that no theologian’s believe in. If you think he does…please give an example ( or your just begging the question)? it is anger. Very quite easy to recognize actually, he attacks people and not the arguments . If your gonna criticize a persons belief, criticize that belief and not your own distortion of that belief.
@@MJ-tj3nd attacks people and not the arguments? I have never once seen him attack a particular person. Ever. However, we are commenting on a video that does exactly that.
@@MJ-tj3nd no
Preaching, my thinking person! Congrats on displaying the extremely rare ability to observe and think for yourself.
Nah. He just invented his own BS.
Well, if you’re taught that God doesn’t love everyone and that he has chosen many to be condemned to hell before they were even born, what other outcome would you expect?
What no one is saying is the AP was excommunicated at age 19 by his Church family and his Father whom he esteemed. Thanks for bringing that out. Yes that could be pretty damaging causing the bitterness we see.
He doesn’t seem bitter at all. He very intelligent and articulate and the arguments he has are solid. Christian Fundamentalism is highly toxic and destructive for many MANY people and people are starting to finally escape it, heal from it, and analyze it.
@@larbur9342bitterness can come out in constant bashing of some on or something.
Don’t know the reason could be Calvinism or sin. Or both in some sense that has embittered him to Jesus. I’ll leave it at that, sad be praying for Abraham Piper and John Piper. 🙏
John Piper is a Calvinist
To be harsh but fair, I think the fact that you think a video like this is okay, publicly examining the spiritual and psychological motivations of a particular man, and as a pastor, is a pretty telling example of how damaging the church can be.
Public figures are subject to public scrutiny.
Abraham Piper chose to go to war against the truth and has a daily impact on at least a million people a day. Anyone choosing to attempt to expose his lies is a natural course.
Corbi... A pastor 😆😆😆
@@carrifoote8065 How very turn the other cheek of you!
It's a very natural reaction. Anytime someone leaves the faith, but especially when it's someone knowledgeable and public, there is a scramble to resolve any dissonance with a narrative. "they just left because they wanted to sin" "they were bitter at god" "they were never a real christian" - these sorts of narratives are a natural tribal defense mechanism.
Perhaps , he's referring to the Reform Doctrine of Calvinism.
Has anyone here seen the numbers of church going people in the US? It's been trending down for decades. There is a reason for that.
It's not a good trend.
We're more and more a society that walks around with tattoos and piercings and claiming that legalizing marijuana is somehow a good thing. How stupid.
Are you insinuating that God is responsible for how he turned out for not picking him? 🤔
that is how Calvinism portraits God.
God did not choose him.
According to Calvinism and depending on how you read some verses, yep. Gawd created Abraham Piper for destruction. He has no choice in the matter.
Calvinism is a literal, logical, reasonable, and therefore vile interpretation of Christianity.
@@_S0me__0ne true. I was one but cannot stand it anymore
Calvinism can lead to Atheism!
What I ask myself is how his wife has dealt with him turning away from God?
You should turn your thoughts inwardly and wonder why you still cling to this abusive Christian lifestyle.
This is all due to the Calvinistic system! It’s simply anti biblical!
LOVING this comment section
I thought this was going to be some actual criticism of things he's said, not a bunch of assumptions. The lack of self awareness in this video is giving me some serious secondhand embarrassment. I only recently discovered Abraham piper and I suppose that's why this video popped up. So I'm not like going to bat for him or anything. But I haven't gotten any of this vibe from the videos of his that I've watched. I mean, of course he's going to criticize the flavor of Christianity he was raised in. That's what he actually has experience with. I was not raised Christian so I can't speak from experience. I only know what I've witnessed from the outside. And all I'm going to say about that is until Christians start taking responsibility for the trauma they put people through, especially children, and start fixing the problems within the church, your numbers are going to keep falling. And you can blame this, that, or the other all the way to extinction if that makes you feel better. I think religion will probably always exist. Even though more and more people are turning away from it simply because they don't believe or don't need it or whatever, there will always be a subset of the population that needs to believe it. And that's fine. But Christianity, specifically, is going to die out if y'all don't take some responsibility for the issues within your religion! You're traumatizing kids and sending them out into the world where they learn they don't need religion...of COURSE they're going to leave it behind! Even if they still believe in God, they're going to leave behind the institutionalized religion. I have probably a dozen friends that were raised Christian and are now atheists. They never would have remained Christian simply because they can't make themselves believe in a deity. But I have another half a dozen friends that are "spiritual" but left Christianity because they can't deal with the bs. You're not just losing those that become atheists. You're losing those that believe too! But you want to blame everybody else rather than examine and reconcile the real issues. So....good luck with that.
This is exactly the type of judgmental nonsense that likely made him walk away from the church. Y'all really need to take a page out of Jesus's book. Literally. Jesus was extremely accepting and non-judgmental, even of those who did not believe in G-d. So the fact that you claim to follow him and yet will publicly scrutinize this human being who is doing his best and is ABSOLUTELY within his rights leave the faith tells me that you have never truly understood the Bible. His choice to self-actualize is literally none of your business.
Lol Jesus told all sinners to REPENT and sin no more.
@@heyitsme881 He also said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." It's not up to this guy to judge another man's faith or lack thereof. That belongs to God alone.
@@heyitsme881 Why isn't faith considered a sin? It literally is bearing false witness, lying. I would think if someone who knows what is good and evil would know that belief without evidence is wrong. Downright manipulative.
@@perryshaffer8358 “you will know them by their fruits” “test every spirit”
@@__-tz6xx The commandment ends '. . .against thy neighbor.' That would mean it's about lies that hurt someone, not a general prohibition.
How do Christians address Proverbs 22:6 in light of the Abraham Pipers of the world?
It's about natural talents. The parents are to notice the natural abilities of a kid (handy or creative or building.....) things that come easily to him/her then train them in that direction. Later in life they will do well in that sphere.
Not a reference to spiritual things.
A proverb is more like we a rule of thumb, it is not a prophecy or a promise. The book of Proverbs is classified as “wisdom” literature. It is not prophecy.
Not to be too abrupt, but if you don’t know the difference, you can look it up yourself as it would take too long to explain here, and I get the impression that most of the people in this comments section would not appreciate nor care for my explanation.
The evangelical church is failing, many are leaving as they see what’s behind the red rose curtains.
It’s not failing because the purpose isn’t to get as many people as possible, if anything now it’s easier to tell the real from the fake
TikTok is for everyone at this point! Come along if you wish…
Is this ironic
Oh so sweet irony
John Piper preaches a hard gospel in which there is no hope for people who continue in sin (like every man I’ve ever known). Coming to Jesus only gets God on our side. Then your works get you to “final salvation.” Never mentioned is how many or how pure those works have to be. There is no real peace in resting in God. Strenuous effort must be made. Daily. Like Roman Catholicism without the hope of purgatory.
BTW, On second listening of your video I heard you open with "Grace To You." On Christmas Eve two years ago, I went to Walmart to exchange a jacket I'd bought for my father for a larger one. I also had other shopping to do. As it turns out they closed customer service early that day in preparation for an early store closing. When I was leaving I carried on me two receipts - one for the shirt I'd brought in and the other for my new purchases. They didn't even bother checking my receipts but grabbed me and placed me in a security room beside the entrance. Even after I produced the two receipts the young Hispanic security men seemed not to have the language skills necessary to comprehend the words coming from my mouth. The processed me like a criminal, took a mugshot , then released me with a ticket and a court date. Walmart had just announced on the news that day they were cracking down on shoplifting and the guards were overly aggressive in their desire to meet manager's expectation of action against thieves. I have never shoplifted in my life, even as a child. At 58, I did not suddenly decide to embark on a shoplifting dare. I would sue Walmart but honestly, they are not worthy of my presence and my breath. I will never step inside a Walmart for as long as I live. I don't speak Spanish and their security men don't speak with competence any of my five languages, English, Japanese, Czech, Kindness, and Respect. At any rate, one memory stands out. I was ready for trial. I had witnesses, I had my receipts. At the courthouse, they assembled the jury to hear my case but when push came to shove, the security agents decided not to show up and the case was dismissed. Finally, my nightmare was over. When my wife and I got to our car to leave, we looked at the license plate directly in front of us. It read GTY 0935, which we understood to mean"Grace To You, from your Lord, Christ 935US."
I’m sorry but excommunicating a teenager? Insanely stupid move. You tell your son to go his own way in a private fashion and to come back when he is ready. Acting as if you are the Papacy for a flipping teenager is cringy and wrong. Especially your own son. Not even the Catholic Church pulls out the excommunication card these days without SERIOUSLY screwing up
Abraham Piper was 19 years old and a legal adult. He was a man at 19.
Thank you sharing this. I’m not Tik Tok literate so I hadn’t heard about the situation. As a parent it was comforting to hear your words of compassion for John Piper. It is painful to see our children walking away from the faith and makes us feel helpless as parents.
John piper probably comforts him self by telling himself that God is doing this to test his faith. The stories people will make up to assuage their cognitive dissonance. How can you worship a god who would use your own child’s rebellion to test you? Oh wait. We’re talking about a God who would ask someone to kill their son just to test them. Funny how nobody acknowledges how traumatized Isaac must have been. Thank God it never really happened.
I am glad that they walk away from religious dogma and their children don't have to grow up with relationships perverted by faith.
Thankfully young people are starting to wise up and abandon these abusive churches. People aren’t willing to endure decades of abusive Christianity anymore.
yawn
are.. are you Bill? how does a guy making content on a platform that you claim you're not on because of your age become such a focus for you? has he somehow made your God smaller? wouldn't that say more about you than him?
Calvinism is the admission that God has already decided EVERYTHING before it even started and WE are just powerless and expendable actors. In addition, it also means that God and His incarnation as Jesus are ALL that really matter and not US. Calvinism is to come to terms with the fact that WE are the servants of God and subordinate to Him and not the other way round, whether we like it or not, leave it to take it. Calvinism demands a person be able to shift the centre of the Universe from themselves to Jesus AND be glad for it. Jesus was a Calvinist, this is pretty obvious from the Gospels. However, there is hope for those who accept this uncomfortable reality because God is NOT like us (thanks God!) and decided to leave Heaven to come here among us, who betray and disobey Him constantly, to save us from our moral corruption by letting us execute Him unjustly so that He can give us Grace for the sin we so love and allow us to live with Him forever free from the desire of sin. And what does He ask in exchange for it? Repentance. Yet, we prefer our sins to this offer and constantly turn against Him and accuse Him of being a monster, a dictator, an oppressor and so on.
A gaslighting pastor?! Well I'll be a son of a gun
Shut your face.
Abraham Piper is cool, my kind of person.
ive watched some of (albeit not a large amount) of the things abraham piper has put out...and alot of what ive seen makes little sense...he tends to use alot of double talk and logical falacies in his videos and cites them as "evidence"
against the ideas of religion (while he claims to be specifically targeting christianity,if we were to adapt his mind set this would go against theology in general not just evengelicals or christians).
for instance one of his videos he claims that it is impossible to believe in god...not that believing in god is wrong,or immoral...that it humans are actually incapable of believing in the concept of a deity.
he says that we can only believe in an "idea" of something....as if that is something completely different when its not
he also atests that free will is completely non existent, that we are completely helpless to the influence of external sources.
Very interesting.
Thanks
Calvinism and Reform theology, presents God or the nature of God in a way that in truth is enough to have people turn away from the faith.
It is a Religion that does not focus on the teachings of Jesus but rather Calvinism thought. and doctrines that are not Biblical.
Jesus did not come bringing a religion. He brought a Kingdom
Hopefully at some point he will meet some people who preach the Kingdom.
He is one of God's children.
He is probably right to criticize the Pharisitical
elk of Mac Arthur, Piper White, Washer etc.
sorry not the men but what they teach Calvinism.
I totally agree!
Excommunicate your 19 year old son because he loses his faith? The Bible I believe in tells that a shepherd goes and finds his wanderer sheep and lovingly brings it back. He doesn’t excommunicate it.
Not to change the subject but can you tell me the author and name of that Paul book on your shelf?
As a former Christian myself after over 40 years as a professing and believing Christian I agree with and understand what he says, specifically about evangelicalism and fundamentalism. I too was raised in a fundie home.
Anger was a result of recanting. I recanted because of the evidence I came across. Like pretty much every person that leaves Christianity doesn't choose to do it willingly.
My anger was due to reflecting on my upbringing. What my parents believed. What they were taught and what they and the church and those we looked up to taught me. What I once accepted as reasonable and true now sickens me.
@MickJagger-el6of I have some sad news for you too. You're not saying anything I haven't heard before, or thought before when I was a Christian.
It's quite an exclusive club many Christians mentally live in, thinking only they and not most professing Christians are believers. It gets so exclusive that there's hundreds, if not thousands of denominations, and if you asked every person who professed to be a Christian you'd get a spectrum of beliefs spanning millions of people. Many who were raised, trained, discipled, etc.
Furthermore, as I don't believe there is a god, you are just as much a Christian as I was. In addition, if I never was a Christian, well, glad I didn't die continuing to live a lie I continued to tell myself was true. I'm also well aware about faith, works, and professions of faith. It's generally not a good look for oneself to make assumptions and project onto other people.
Sidebar, don't use big theological and apologetic terms made up by men to try to explain their convoluted beliefs. Monergism... It comes off as arrogant, obtuse, and just throwing big words around to make you seem smart.
@MickJagger-el6of I wonder how much you've listened to non-Christians and former Christians talk about belief, and more importantly what Christianity believes.
I don't believe any longer in the truth of the Bible. And I don't believe any longer that Jesus was divine or a savior
@MickJagger-el6of With all due respect, right back at you. I was raised in an evangelical, fundamentalist church and environment, thus what you spout is nothing new to me. I've heard it all before. I believed and spouted a lot of it myself as well.
It's utter dreck and one of the reasons I am dealing with feelings of disdain for fundamentalism and Christianity in general.
You needn't listen to my responses? You keep coming back.
I encourage you to check out people like Paulogia or Matt Dillahunty. Or Tim on Harmonic Atheist. And actually listen. And set aside, for a while, your presuppositions that anything they say is automatically wrong purely because it does not align with what you believe or think.
But, I warn you. I do not recommend calling their shows (Matt and Paul's) because they will shred your arguments. And you can take that to the bank.
@MickJagger-el6of For a Christian you're awfully unloving having a conversation with, especially someone you don't know and don't know anything about.
I gave them as examples of places you could go to listen to detailed discussions and arguments. Comment threads are really not the place. Not for apologetics, polemics, or evangelism. Not are you winning yourself any points trying to belittle me. But, it's par for the course in my experience.
You're welcome to the last word. It's pretty clear you enjoy it
Abraham seems to be a tragic case-in-point that there is a kind of 'dumb' one can be only when they're pretty smart. He's clearly on the far side of the intellectual curve. But, his arguments and claims are often barely passable as logical reasoning. They are, however, often emotionally persuasive, a thing which works very well (as does all sophistry) on people of similar intellect and rebellion.
I think you're right that he's hurt. My guess is spiritual abuse of sorts. What i mean by that is that John Piper's own deterministic view of God is actually quite horrific. I'll go so far as to say that Calvinism is a very popular blasphemy of God. God does not predestine some people to heaven and the rest to hell. God wills that none should perish, but that all would inherit eternal life. Unfortunately, God's will is not always (or even usually) done. We have free will, the will to choose either God and His will, or not God or His will.
And when you're brought up in a community where everyone believes in that sadistic god that predestines some people to hell, how could you like that god? That god is unlikeable. And yet, lots of people do. Some people (like Abraham Piper) are coherent enough to say, "Wait a second..."
It's just a shame that this faulty theology has all but turned Abraham from God altogether. I hope he finds the True God.
Not only is it destructive to those in that belief system, it's preventative to a lot of unbelievers whose main questions revolve around the sovereignty of God and the problem of evil. It's all very sad.
Hes got 1.7 million followers on tiktokm
Well, for anyone judging pastor's kids just remember this, they mostly only have the saint's kids to run around with:) LMAO!
What kills me is that buddy is now a die-hard secular fundie. It's quite ironic...but he seems utterly blind to it.
@@See-wf8ce One who is such a strict adherent to the presuppositions provided by a secular humanistic worldview that they typically become preachy, and usually lack the ability to apply consistent, internal critique.
@MickJagger-el6ofI don't recall hearing it elsewhere, but not positive. So feel free to claim it as your own. 😆
All hail the flying spaghetti lord
Yeah!
Ra'men
He never prayed throughout his life, except once. Says so honestly in videos. He is the narrow minded hypocrite
John Piper is not a Christian.
You mean in private. What do you know?
Lots of speculation here.
The elephant in the room is Calvinism. Calvismism is a false gospel. If Calvinism were true, John Piper loves Abraham Piper more than Jesus loves Abraham Piper.
piper is a false teacher, his son is 100% right
I agree I saw his videos and seem a very angry person, I know there are so many people praying for him 🙏🏼
I am not an atheist. I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob-I do not accept the doctrines of the trinity, Calivinism, or that Jesus is "the messiah" since that is not scripturally sound doctrine.
People are leaving Christianity because it is another inherited lie. People must accept that God's people are the Jews, and that only when the Jews return to keep the commandments will he bless all nations through them.
You dont believe in god you're a weirdo in a fantasy world 😅
What a nutjob 😅😅😅