One day Christ will return and every person will see Him in His glory. No opinions will be entertained. Everyone will be silenced and know that He is the great, "I AM"
Leon Gackenheit I am not going to heaven because I've earned it. I'm no better than anyone else. Trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of you sins. Anyone who believes and asks is forgiven. :)
@kevin purdy lol, you're funny... 1. God creates creatures which become evil (Isa. 45.7) 2. Creates the wicked for the day of evil (prov. 16:4) 3. Is free to do as He pleases and is perfect in His ways (Dan. 4:35) 4. Saves individuals according to the good pleasure of His will doesn't mean that people aren't free in other decisions which they make.
James 1:13 New International Version (NIV) 13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
Eagle Eye , no, he cannot be calvinistically sovereign, and then allow things to happen. He has to be in control of all. Did you watch the first 20 seconds of the video?!? God is in control of it all. There is no “let befall” in Calvinism.
@@craigjoyner9857 Who is talking about Calvinism in the first place? How is God "in control" when hundreds of thousands of people alone are committing suicide every year? In fact, the Devil has no power. He can`t do absolutely anything without God`s approval. God allows evil befall us in hope that we turn to Him, but in the vast majority of cases, people become too damaged in the process and lose any kind of motivation to carry on. It seems, we (God and we) don`t understand each other.
Eagle Eye , John MacArthur is a staunch calvinist/reformed theologian. When he answers this question, he is speaking from the Calvinistic perspective. There is no “let happen” in Calvinism/reformed theology. The only thing that happens, is what god decreed to happen. This is why I am opposed to Calvinism/reformed theology and consider it a different gospel.
Piper says, “At the center to the solution of the problem is a choice YOU have to make about the cross”? If God determines everything how does that work? It’s contradictory.
Free will is the ability to choose something freely, the ability to want to do something. It’s not the ability to act on your own without God. That’s important to understand God is omniscient and omnipotent and of course that means that everything that is happening in this world is caused by him, he wills and does everything, otherwise he wouldn’t be God. So yes, according to the Bible everything is pure fate and predetermined. If you say, that this kind of predetermined world doesn’t make sense, then you don’t understand what it means to be a creator and what it means to be its creation. It automatically means it’s only important what God wants, not what his creation wants. As a creator you can wreck your creation or not like I destroy the gift wrap and get rid of it but keep the present. It’s not important what the gift wrap wants, it’s important what I who just wants to keep the present wants. When I complain that everything is predestined and God does what he wants, it's like my gift wrap complaining about why I do what I want. Also, Saying people could choose to sin is very stupid. It’s funny because that thought denies God. Only God is holy, only he can give you the ability not to sin. People who are like Yeah, but Satan chose to sin that’s why God will punish him with hell is so weird. In the beginning every living being God created didn’t sin at all by his protection. Now you want to tell me there is some kind of creation of God like an angel who is like „No God, I don’t care about your protection. I will sin now“ hahahah what’s that being who can do that. That would mean that today everyone in heaven could do the same thing the devil did in heaven. No difference. Revelation 17,17 Philippians 2,13 Romans 9,19
He is saying God is responsible for rape murder and heresy? absurd! Calvinism is really out there. What does he mean we have to make a “choice about the cross”?? thats a contradiction of Calvinism.
You'll never understand unless you're filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit told me that everything is EXACTLY the way it's supposed to be. Just because you don't know the reason , doesn't make it not true.
This is a hard topic, and if you cannot wrap your mind around it just trust. Like proverbs 3:5 says: Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.❤
Yes, praise Jesus. I can submit to these truths even if I don't understand them entirely. Same way I submit to the doctrine of the Trinity, Christ's Deity/Humanity, the in-filling of the Holy Spirit in believers, and on and on. AMEN
It is a hard topic because Piper is totally wrong. God does not even tempt men to sin, the Bible says! This is insanity to say that God has anything to do with sin. He is righteous and holy.
Yep, don't lean on your own understanding. But you can understand the kind of power Piper talks about, it's a very human centric kind of power. All about himself and complete control. Yet God doesn't say he is like that. He says that neither power, knowledge or even kindness is valuable without love. He says that he will never tempt us. He says he does not even think of our evil, let alone command it. ( Jeremiah 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind) So if that is hard to wrap your mind around, don't worry about it, and simply trust him
What people DON'T or REFUSE to UNDERSTAND is.... GOD IS SOVEREIGN AND HE SIMPLY CAN DO ANYTHING HE WANTS, AND HE IS ALWAYS JUST & RIGHTEOUS. who are we to discuss HIS ways. PERIOD.
But He determines who is elect and makes them love Him. He chooses to create love in the hearts of some and chooses not to intervene in the hearts of others (who, so far as we know, may still choose to love Him, but who in their fallen state still are not among the elect). "For though the twins were not yet born and had not yet done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose *according to His choice* would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, 'THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.' Just as it is written: 'JACOB I HAVE LOVED, BUT ESAU I HAVE HATED.'” Romans 9:11-13 Predestination assumes God intervenes in the hearts of the elect to make them follow the narrow path of salvation. Some believe He intervenes in the hearts of the non-elect to ensure they fall short, but the more orthodox Calvinist view is that He merely decides to not grant them mercy and leaves them to their own devices, knowing that that means they are damned. Still, that by itself doesn't mean those people won't love God at all, even if only to try to earn salvation by accepting Jesus in their own imperfect, fallen, and inadequate way.
For all those who love him??? But he also made all those who don’t love him to not love him. So they go to hell because god simply did not want them to love him.
@@Pandaemoni standard calvanist verses out of context. Jesus calls ALL to repent. He calls ALL to believe. We have a choice and free will and it does NOT take God's glory
Its strange how this man talks to us like we can make choices but also says that God has predetermined every single thing that we do and all that happens.
All that really matters for us is the illusion of free will. Doesn't matter whether God already chose something for us, since we seem to get to choose for ourselves what is is that God has already planned!
In this view: If I choose to sin, then God already decided I would sin. If I choose not to sin, then God already decided I would not sin. So, I get to choose whether or not God already decided I would sin!
I don't think it has to be personal with Piper, remember that this is a long-standing question in Christianity and philosophy, he is not the only one that teaches this, nor did he came up with it.
A choice you have to make about the cross? Or a choice you hope God has already made for you before you were born? If you get arrogant with these doctrines isn’t it because God determines you would? If you stay humble, God determined it?
I am one of those who is going insane trying to comprehend what you said. On the other hand, I respect you for not dodging the question like many others do. Edit: 3 years later, today in Feb 12th 2022 (I must have written my original comment on 2019 before Covid hit), I understand God's sovereignty in a different, and more acceptable way. I believe that the solution is in what he said @4:10 like one of the comments mentioned below. I accept what I don't understand, and turn to the cross where He solved the problem of sin and gave me salvation and redemption from death. Everything else come secondary to this insight. God bless you all.
@@bobbyadkins6983 so God never predestined and had a His hand in the greatest sin and atrocity ever committed as stated in Acts 4? Who’s the one that doesn’t know God?
What a bunch of non-sense. If you actually know your Bible you can see through all this glamorous dialogue. Why would anyone worship a God that makes you sin then judge you for it? Yes, God is in everything but we all know some things go outside of God's plan, such as; school shootings, terrorism, suicide, etc...This is shocking to hear from such a man like Piper.
Commentary on predestination: Lastly, in Romans 9:17-23, Paul anticipates the expected question, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? (v. 19). He then provides the answer, "But who are you O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?" (vv. 20-22). For many, this is not the answer they are looking for. Yet, this is the answer that Scripture supplies. The doctrine of predestination cannot be completely understood, for it is an act that resides in the mind of an infinite being, and we, as finite humans, cannot understand this (see knowability of God). ------also, before they had committed any deed, the Lord deemed that 'Jacob I loved but Esau I hated" Romans 9:13. It is a difficult doctrine to understand given our human sense of fairness, which does not align with God's. I struggle with this sometimes
One thing I say about calvanist, they sure know how to skate around questions and they are knowing for quoting outside sources to support scripture. This was one big word salad. A student of the scriptures can recognize that he didn't say anything🤦
Piper: "Yes." Then goes straight to Spurgeon. Good Lord man...Piper is wrong, wrong, wrong. What choice about the Cross is he talking about anyway? The one he means that God predetermined for you to have? Please. Governance and fatalistic determinism are two totally different things. Piper definitely clubs you over the head with his garbage. He is in error.
"And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin." Jeremiah 32:35 Put that in your Piper and smoke it.
@@rocketsurgeon1746 you think your smart , you dont even truly know what Calvinism says for sure ..... ask yourself this question , " as dumb as i am , and as dumb as i can be , if i can seem to find inconsistencies with Calvinism why those great reformers seem to miss this thing? " nd then search and enlighten urself with what they said bout it , smh
Foreknowledge and not causative is not sovereign. Foreknowing of God (in the peers down the corridors sense) also suggests God is bound by time. Making God subject to time, makes time a god, in which God is subjected to. Is God the creator of time or has it always been?
Foreknowledge does not suggest God is bound by time. He has foreknowledge precisely BECAUSE He is outside of time. We see time linearly as we go from past to present to future in our lives, but He stands outside of it and sees it all at once. That is why He foreknew us because He sees the end from the beginning.
Not 'always' I would say. I would say that God predetermined what would happen, but He surely didn't intend or want it all to happen. His giving of choice is real I believe... God doesn't pretend to give us a choice to sin or not to sin, He does and our nature does what it does.
Exactly if he made us sinners why is he taking it out in us? And then why do Christians say babies are born pure if we all are destined to sin? Also sin is determined by what society says is a sin not god ..... the Bible has been manipulated and changed to fit the man in powers agenda
@@amandah.2202 Somethings we now no longer consider to be sin were considered to be sin in earlier years. If we say that sin is what society says it is, then that means that what is and isn't sin has an evolving standard. But God is the one who sets the standard of right and wrong and his standard doesn't change. What God said was sin years ago is still sin in God's eyes today.
Teaching that God Predestines and decrees all things that come too pass is a very blasphemous and demonic teaching. It is literally accusing God of being the author of sin. the Calvinist God is not the God of the bible.
(Eph 1:11 11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,) Note: (All things according to his will) All praise and glory to Christ Jesus, KING of Kings, and LORD of Lords. 🔥🌷
If God is not in total control, he is a limited god and one whom would leave us with much doubt and uncertainty regarding our salvation in one who can't control the day from the night. But that is not the God of the Bible. He is bound by no limitations. He is ALMIGHTY and SOVEREIGN. (Genesis 15:20; 1 Chronicles 29:11; Proverbs 19:21, 16:9, 16:4; Jeremiah 29:11; Ephesians 1:11; Isaiah 55:8-11; etc)
@@JonathanGrandt God is the only being that has libertarian free will. We are creatures that God has all control. In Daniel 4, it talks about how God does according to his will and that no one can say to him why did u do that. God's will overrides the creatures free will. Just as Piper said if we stay with the cross we will see.
Piper: "Everything, including every sinful thing, is ultimately governed by God." Also Piper: "The center of the solution to the problem is a choice you have to make about the cross" Someone explain to me how God can predetermine everything, down to the movement of a dust particle, and then Piper can say that I have a choice to make about the cross? If God predetermined everything, I can't see how there is any choice on our part.
Exactly Daniel. Well stated, my friend. I personally prefer Molinism as an explanation of God’s sovereignty. William Lane Craig describes it well and pulls Calvinism apart. The other issue I have is that Calvinism calls God the author of evil, and that everyone’s fate sealed from the conception of time. This theology caused many of my Christian friends to despise God and fall away. Mankind are responsible for our choices… We reap what we sow…Choose Jesus and reject sin… it’s up to us!
God's eternal, he knows who will reject him from before the foundation of the world. He plants the seed in the elect in order that they'll receive the gospel. Much of the scriptures we can't comprehend by either view on free will, it's above our pay grade. God used many evil people to achieve great things without them even knowing they were in his service. One day, believers will have all of these answers.
@@stevehardwick1578 I agree with you that one day we’ll know all the answers. However, I strongly disagree that God plants seeds into the elect. Do you have a verse for that?
I think that God knows everything, He knows every detail of every future event in every person's life before it occurs. Free will would suggest that He knows the choices we will make but doesn't cause us to make them, unless we ask Him to intervene. Of course, He knows if we will ask Him and He knows who are His, even before they existed. Also, God can influence the future through His plans, which never fail - His plans are always good and perfect, God either redeems or He destroys, either way He is just because He's admistering justice. So our will is often different from His will, because His will is always good, merciful and loving, while our will is foolish, proud and selfish - One of the beautiful things about God is that He gives us free will, He doesn't create robot's. His will ultimately must be done and ultimately will be done, but not at the expense of man's free will - It's not His will that sin should reign in people's hearts, it's the people's will, and yet God turns wickedness into grace and glory, yet He himself did not cause the wickedness. God is love, not sin! God is Good, God is kind, God is just! God is light, and there is NO darkness in Him at all!
@@tiff3156 Darkness (representing evil or calimity) doesn't meant that God is the source of evil. Bible teaches that evil is the result of humanity's choice to rebel against God and turn away from His ways. But the point is even in the midst of these difficulties God is still in control and working for the good of those who love Him.
@@ovandograham7793 In Christian belief, specifically in regard to this, it's not so much about predestination but about the free will of Adam and Eve. They were given the choice to obey or disobey God's command in the Garden of Eden, and their disobedience is what's often referred to as the 'original sin.' It's seen as a result of their own choice rather than something predetermined. Genesis 2:17 (NIV): "But you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
@@minmin_haokip I understand this but since discovering new information my opinion has changed. It says in the Bible has the potter not have power over the clay and it also says he determined things long ago. God is sovereign is over everything so nothing goes on without him permitting it. He wrote the script to life. Adam and Eve sin due to Gods script but I’ve realised you need to be able to accept that God can some how design sin (for his glory to show his justice) but in a way that makes him NOT sin
Every time I see Piper's video there is an argument going on these comment. I also have tried to argue with someone and its pointless. Bible is very simple to me at least. Love people Love God Serve Other with Love that has given to us By Jesus. I just think its waste of energy and time to argue when we can go out to the world and love others. Love, Faith, Hope that's what we should hold on to. First and most of all is love.
It's so seductive to talk about all this. Blessed the men or women that understand that not everything we can explain not all is revealed to us. Only what is nessisary to find and believe in jesus
He said it!! "Every horrible thing and every sinful thing is governed by God". And then he said God planned the worst wickedness in history. Can you imagine this guy being your public spokesman???!!!!!!!!!
Scripture clearly tells us that God is sovereign over all things and that we are held accountable for our actions. The Acts 2:23 clearly states this was predetermined by God. Praise God for John Piper
@@dsuggs4694 Ppl may *know about* someone, but one that has had a *personal* relationship of the One in question; as one who he/she had become intimately related with The One in question, is the one that actually *knows* the Person. One knowing *about* God, is one that is *_"ever learning,_*_ but __-never able-__ to _*_come_*_ to The Knowledge of The Truth."_ Placing such a one in the category of the Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus' day. Not questioning you about the *Sovereignty* of God, nor of our accountability of our actions we take within our lifetime. The question is about *The Justice* of God, towards that of humanity. Certainly He has control over *all* things, such as the *not allowing* Satan to do to Job, beyond the *permission* given of God towards him. He also has a *permissive* will, and *a perfect* will, when dealing with the worshippers of God. As in Balaam's approaching Him correctly,, and his (Balaam's) action afterwards, when he was determined to curse Israel, he was placing a *blessing* upon them instead. His first response was His Perfect Will, saying "Don't go!" Yet Balaam approached Him *again,* to try to persuade Him to -change- His Decision, and be *allowed* to go and try again. Thereby was Granted to him His *permissive* will. His *permissive* will, is that _none _*_should_*_ perish, but that ALL _*_should_*_ come to repentance._ But, He has sets up a pattern for them to *come to* repentance. Making that pattern placed upon them to be His Perfect Will. Outside of that, would fall under His permissive will. God, Being Sovereign, does what He wills with His *bought* subjects. Yet His Foreknowledge, understands their final outcome, but grants Grace to the vessels of dishonor, a period of time in which to repent, thereby preventing them from having an excuse when their day of judgement is come unto them. (Psa. 1:5) Their decisive action, is what brings them into their own judgement, not because God predestinated them to that destruction. To try to blame God, for our own unwillingness to submit to His Will is what determines our destiny. So, _"Let God be True, and _*_every_*_ man a liar."_ How are they *liar's* they take God's Word (Will) and make it mean something that It was not meant to be.
Help me with this Past John.....so God made (ordained) the crucifixion of Jesus happen...for the atonement of all the other sins He made happen (ordained)....?????, No sir....Is it not blasphemy to blame God (who hates sin) for sin? The Father who looked away from the Son because of the sin on Him???
I agree, Pastor Brett, both Arminianism and Calvinism in their extreme forms are unbiblical in my view. If we emphasize man's autonomous free will we end in error. No one is saved because they chose to be saved, but because God chose to save them. And the foreknowledge spoken of in Romans 8 is personal foreknowledge, not factual knowledge. Obviously He knows everything, but God foreknows the elect personally. However taken to the extreme we also end in error with the assumption that we fully grasp the mystery of God's will and purpose and that God willed sin into existence. We lose our perspective of God's absolute and infinite holiness.But God must give us the will to believe. The new birth is like the experience of Lazarus who died and whose body was in a state of decay, and yet Jesus spoke life into a rotten corpse and resurrected him to life. So it is in the regeneration of a sinner dead in trespasses and sins.
You say, "no one is saved because they chose to be saved, but because God chose to save them." I agree to a point. God says that he loved us first. That while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Why did Christ die? To demonstrate his love towards us. Correct? Did he not say that there is no greater love than a man lay his life down for his friend. So yes God did chose to save. But men do chose. Do they not? Did not Christ say to the theif, because of YOUR BELIEF, this day shall you be with me in paradise. Additionally, I did not read where Jesus forced the woman at the well to drink. What I am saying is that I think folks need to be careful using terms like elect and predestination in regards to salvation. It is easily construed into compulsory salvation instead of God's foreknowledge about ones salvation. There is a huge difference. I am certain scripture say that it is God's will that ALL should come to the knowledge of the truth. And it seems to me that if the rich man went to hell, God's will won't always be done. And, I am very certain, scripturally speaking, God didn't elect the rich man to hell or it makes scripture contrary. Also, did you say that God willed sin into existence? I was kind of confused with that part of your statement.
Who the fuck authorized your ass to speak for god? any of you? because you are in direct contradiction of Yeshua's words. yep, that's right; "the kingdom of god is within you' ' those that are blind can see, and those that can see are blind'... a fitting choice for those of you who purport to 'understand' and 'know' ...
Charlie Hutch Jesus died for you and wants to save you! The Bible declares that no profane person such as yourself will ever enter the kingdom! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved before it is too late!
Phillip Bassman Yes, I don't remember specifically what we were talking about, but yes I agree. 5 point is very dangerous. It is on par with Islam in that God is the creator of evil instead of the creator of free will. I can't help how I feel, and when I realized that 5 point teaches that God in fact did predestinate some to eternal hell because he got glory from this, that's when I got as angry about "religion" as I ever had in my life. 5 point makes Jesus the father of lies instead of resting upon Satan where it belongs, and as Christ told us it belongs.
This pastor is full of .... contradiction. God is in control of everything. That means he is capable of making everything the way he wants them to be. That's including the ability to allow human to have free will, choose to go astray, become sinful and then to be saved by the savior. Will there be Christ if human chose not to disobey God? Yes, he is God.
I had a thought, and it may be wrong, for--though I can claim some intelligence according to man's standards--I am an idiot when it comes to understanding God. My thought was that ALL good comes from God and that God allows evil but does not author it. Its shape, form, and extent are determined by God through His good and all-knowing influence on the universe surrounding the evil. If I am wrong in this don't fail to correct me and quote some scripture to me. It is easy for me to be wrong.
“To argue that God is “trying His best” to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent.” A W Pink
or the old testament scripture I lay before you life and death blessings and curses now choose life so that you may live or ezikial 18 do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked now choose life so that you may live why oh why will you die Israel
Jordan Belcher in those passages, God is speaking to a limited humans (like us) who are bound by time who is dead in sin but his word is being preached! Just as it is being done now, God's Word proclaims his desire for you to knock, seek and find, lean not on your own understanding, do not be wise in your own eyes, repent! All these are ways God is showing what he wants of us so thay we may conform to his will. But in God's perspective, as the Word proclaims, we were predestined before the creation of the world.
So you say God is lying: He does indeed take pleasure in the death of the wicked, and he didn't *really* want to gather the Jews under his wings. Also I wouldn't say God is "trying is best". God is not an optimization algorithm. He desires everyone to be saved, but prefers to instill faith by more subtle methods than having angels heralding the Gospel everywhere or whatever other means one may imagine as "trying his best". Not that this would work. The only reliable way he could save everyone was puppet master level control. I think you know why it is assumed he doesn't want that. And he certainly doesn't owe it to us to "try his best". He is still just and loving and his wish (not plan!) to save everyone is honest. Mr. Pink should explain why the ability to make a moral choice implies omnipotence.
Well then your whole belief system is wrong, because the bible clearly teaches that it's God's will for all to be saved. But it also teaches that only few will be saved. So yeah, you have a problem. 1 Timothy 2:3,4: This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth
Just because God predetermined the death of his son which resulted in the redemption of creation it doesn't follow that all events e.g. Syrians being tortured and killed by Isis are ordained by God. The quote from proverbs seems very weak because (1) a dice is not the most random thing one could think of and (2) it probably refers to numbers 26 and the stones of the ephod which were used to determine YHWHs will. God explicitly ordained these as a means to determine his will. It doesn't follow that God determines the fall of every dice in lasvegas!!!!
+Stephen Glasse exactly Stephen.... Ezekiel 18:23. They have no explanation for that-but people who are Calvinists are literally addicted to their "chosen" status, and are not spiritually capable of understanding because they do not know or serve the same God we do- they serve their god of "Theology"....
So God predetermined the sex trafficking, predestined those in it to fall into those sins against their wills and then sends them to a horoffic eternal torment for doing that!!! This God is an absolute monster!!! Luckily it is not the god of scripture but of John Calvin/Augustine. And you thought these pastors followed Jesus....
No one has argued otherwise. But, since God infallibly and exhaustively knows what will occur...you will make that choice, and you can not have chosen otherwise
gregory callaway there are infinite factors to influence your choices so it's not your fault if you take bad decisions due to your ignorance and the fact that you're not perfect
Right, you're headed in the right direction. We can never fully understand God but only with what He has revealed to us through His word. In the bible we find the sovereignty of God. I thank that my salvation doesn't rest in the fact that "I chose it", but rather that God has chosen me.
You fool you are saying god did not plan the history of the universe ? So he did what ? Create it and let it roll out the way it does and see later what comes out of it ? Of course god did plan everything in advance cause he is all knowing and all powerfull and an all powerfull and all knowing god does not let the universe do whatever it does without planning it to do according to his will.
@@2BLO97 no. God hasnt predestined. God is all knowing (islam), therefor God knows the future. God has "written down" not what you will, but God has "written down" what are are going to do. Will and are going to are different. Will means God has predestined (you are gonna do what god said) , are going to means ( God has said what you are going to do) he just knows it beacuse well he is all knowing. He has only predicted not predestined. If God had predestined everything it wouldnt be a mistake of a child who will grow up n commit sin, beacause well, God had predestined it, therefor ppl wouldny take responsibility. So God has given us freewill. God has given us freewill so we will take responsibility for our actions. Therfor if we have freewill it means that God hasnt predestined it. This comes back to the conclusion that God has only predicted (what you are going to do) not predestined ( what you will do beacause he wants you to).
What do you mean? all things mean all things In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, Ephesians 1:11 ESV bible.com/bible/59/eph.1.11.ESV
Your definition of evil is objectively wrong then. Sin and evil are whatever that is contrary to God's nature, God's definition of these terms is the objective truth. Think of God's morality as a perfect object to be imitated, you use it as the standard or the ruler to measure your imitation, not otherwise
Do you treat other people's children as well as you treat your own? No. You don't mistreat them but you don't love them in the same way that you love and correct your own. Some people are God's children and some people are the devil's children. Jesus made this very clear as the gospel of St. John tells it. Jesus told a group of people who mocked him that they couldn't hear his words, they couldn't believe him. He knew that they weren't deaf, so why did he tell them they couldn't hear him? Because they were not God's children, but instead, they were children of the devil. He went on to say that if they were God's children they would hear him. So if there were two groups of people then, there have always been two groups of people. When you understand this very basic principle that we are not all alike no matter what the world tells us, it can begin to help you make sense of it all. The next time you hear someone say that all people are God's children, you should know that they are contradicting what Jesus taught. You either believe Jesus or you don't.
"Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to *become* children of God". You seem to assume some people as babies are already better persons than the rest. No. We're all born depraved sinners. We need to be born again to become God's children. Before that, we aren't.
No one can come to Jesus unless the Father who sent Him draws him. All whom the Father draws will come to Jesus, and Jesus will not turn away any who come to Him. Of those whom the Father gives the Son, the Son will lose none, but will raise them up at the last day.
@john disalvo "Therefore [God] has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens" (Romans 9:18). Explain the obvious meaning of that verse away with your Arminian theology!
@@lightisgreaterthandarkness Obviously you have never read any Calvinist writings! Calvinism does not teach that God is the author of sin but He is sovereign over sin! Nothing can happen unless God sovereignly wills it, even the sinful acts of human beings. Otherwise, we are left with a limited deistic "god" and not the supreme "God" described in Scripture! Jude 4 even says that apostates are "foreordained" or "marked out for this condemnation."
Did God know that Adam and Eve would fall? Yes He did. So why does He place them in a garden with the tree that can bring about death? I think you are missing the entire point here. God knew that you were gonna sin and those who will go to Hell, God knew about, and STILL God allowed us all to be born. He could have stopped all sin before it ever happened, but He created a tree that could cause Eve to sin, and thus all of mankind with her. God knew, and yet STILL did not stop it. Now, why would God do that? Could it be that God has purpose on sin? Could it be that God is glorified in the punishment of wickedness?
@@EdgeOfEntropy17 Ezekiel 33:11 does say that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. So why would he predetermine who would reject him and die in their sins?
Michael Bain I surmise that God is glorified and honored in the exercise of bringing His perfect judgement against those He’s bound over to sin. This does not mean that He enjoys or finds pleasure in the vanquishing of those He created in His image and blessed. The esteem of God may be present when the painful justice of God is exhibited.
@@michaelbain399 Anytime we ask the question, "why" in relation to "why" God does things, we have only the Scripture to teach us. We cannot stand in the place of the Almighty and say "This is why God does that" because we are finite beings with very limited knowledge of God's overarching plan. The fact is, God find no pleasure in the death of the wicked because God is love and God is merciful. But that does not negate His judgment, for sin is an offense to Him, and He would be unjust in allowing wickedness to continue without judgement. Just as He is love, He is also just, and only God knows "why" He does anything at all, save for the glimpses he reveals to us in His word. God bless.
Did God cause Satan to rebel against Him? Did God make Adam eat of the forbidden fruit? Did God make Cain kill his brother? If God is the author of sin, why does He compel men to "repent"? Foreknowledge of men making certain choices, does not make God the author of those choices.
"choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve." I have a choice. I am not a bio-puppet. I am made in the image of God. God is not cruel and does not create beings that have no chance to escape damnation.
"The choice" in that verse is between two different false gods. Joshua 24:15 ESV - And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell.
@@scottleary8468 But do I have a choice in the matter of weather I lie or telling the truth. Can an unsaved person choose to do right? Not living a holy Life, but to do right. Can he choose to tell the truth. Can he choose not to rob a bank? Can he choose not to beat his wife and kids? And if so, how can he choose since God ordained Him for hell? And do we have a choice to do wrong? Or is it just Adam's sin?
Free will is the ability to choose something freely, the ability to want to do something. It’s not the ability to act on your own without God. That’s important to understand God is omniscient and omnipotent and of course that means that everything that is happening in this world is caused by him, he wills and does everything, otherwise he wouldn’t be God. So yes, according to the Bible everything is pure fate and predetermined. If you say, that this kind of predetermined world doesn’t make sense, then you don’t understand what it means to be a creator and what it means to be its creation. It automatically means it’s only important what God wants, not what his creation wants. As a creator you can wreck your creation or not like I destroy the gift wrap and get rid of it but keep the present. It’s not important what the gift wrap wants, it’s important what I who just wants to keep the present wants. When I complain that everything is predestined and God does what he wants, it's like my gift wrap complaining about why I do what I want. Also, Saying people could choose to sin is very stupid. It’s funny because that thought denies God. Only God is holy, only he can give you the ability not to sin. People who are like Yeah, but Satan chose to sin that’s why God will punish him with hell is so weird. In the beginning every living being God created didn’t sin at all by his protection. Now you want to tell me there is some kind of creation of God like an angel who is like „No God, I don’t care about your protection. I will sin now“ hahahah what’s that being who can do that. That would mean that today everyone in heaven could do the same thing the devil did in heaven. No difference. Revelation 17,17 Philippians 2,13 Romans 9,19
@@Key-ps2iy so i can’t blame the wrapping paper for going to hell if I do whatever I want with it just because I want to. Sure, it’ll go to hell, but in that case, I can’t blame it
Listen, to all the naysayers let me ask you something; What exactly does it mean to be God? Think about what it means to actually be the creator. People who say that they don’t like the idea of God having predestined every single aspect of life are actually saying that they do not desire a God who is in complete control which is another way of saying “I desire to suppress who God is/or I hate God”. Either God is omnipotent and omniscient or he’s not God, there is no in-between. Secondly, if you truly understand Grace, having a God that is not in complete control is absolutely terrifying and leaves much doubt to our very own salvation. This erroneous view of God is derived from Men making God out to be small, somewhat equal to themselves.
God Is powerful enough to create agents with self determining movements of the will. Omniscience doesn't require a decree for knowledge. Knowing is not determining. Calvinism does not allow even Christ to have free human will. Monoenergism and Monotheletism are old and condemned heresies.
+Keith Thompson Keith, hand waving will not correct Calvinism's defective Christology. This shows up often, like MacArthur insisting for decades that the Son is not eternally generated. And go ask Sproul why it is that he refuses to admit that God died on a cross. And why is it that Piper insists that evil is necessary....even for God, and that the full effulgence of his glory requires someone to mete out wrath upon. Tell the Holy Trinity that creation and evil are necessary amid the most pure loving communion and perichoresis of the divine Persons, having need of nothing.
+Keith Thompson I repented by forsaking Reformed Christology, which confuses Person and Nature and ends up Nestorianizing. Even the Lutherans have rightly charged you with this for centuries.
Our human minds cannot comprehend it but it is true. It seems like contradiction but somehow there is a harmony between mans free will and Gods Sovereignty over the whole Universe.
It's simple we have laws in the constitution (predetermined?) , we know exactly what will follow if we break them(fate) but most still don't give a damn and breaks them anyways (choice). So de we blame the law makers, the law breakers or the choice they made?
Here is absolute proof that God does not predetermine and cause everything to happen that happens; In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
I'm shocked that all these comments seem to be saying Piper is wrong. He is actually correct. Have you not read the Bible? Paul, himself, repeatedly told the Jews (and others) that their sin of killing Christ was pre-ordained by God. Those of you who disagree with Piper here are arguing against Scripture. Is it hard to grasp? Sure. Does it seem somewhat cruel? Sure. But this is undeniably what Scripture says.
Johann Wilder So, God is cruel, but deal with it, because that's what this man thinks scripture is saying? This kind of interpretation does not point to Jesus Christ. Think on this a while: "39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life."
Wrong. Corinthians 2:8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; That is where Lucifer wanted to put the unseen Father God. That is why Jesus was crucified.
god never created sins, the old tstament says clearly we die and have flesh because satan and his demons and our choice to follow him since the beggining... so, no, god didnt crated sins ... and god cant kill satan neither, because demons and angelsare astral body (spirit) so they cant be killed even by god, they have been created to last for ever (that's why he casted out lucifer, because lucifer has no flesh and that's why during exorcism you cast out demons and do not kill them because they are spirit not flesh... god wouldnt have sent his son dying on the cross if he coul just kill satan...
Calvinists say God is good, but then they say He predetermines EVERY act that occurs, and man has no freewill whatsoever. So, by their own doctrine, they assert that God is the author of evil.
Norse god worship has been overthrown. The One true God who made heaven and earth who shall have no other gods before him has revealed himself in history through the prophets, in great signs and in sending his Son Jesus Christ who was raised from the dead in accordance with the oracles of the Holy Prophets. This is the God who said his dominion will be over all the earth. His reign shall not end and he will show all the gods of the nations to be false. He has done so, and after singularity comes, Jesus will return. God's glory will be known everywhere and the gods of the nations will be but a sad memory in history.
This fact that God knows our sins even before we were formed in the womb makes me realize how much he really loves me that he would still want to create me knowing about my dirty sin. He sent his son to die for our sins that we can be made righteous in his suffering. God's gift of free will is so amazing that nobody on earth will be able to comprehend until we get to heaven. THANK YOU JESUS
@@kaitlyn-gracesmith7923 lol Do you not know the story? Through the first man and women sin entered the world by the choice they made to disobey God, Sin was then inherited by every man and women from there, Jesus came and obeyed every command and did not sin, He shed his blood as a substitute for our sin, So by his blood God no longer sees us as sinners but we recieve the rightousness of jesus, God in the flesh, His begotten son, His living word, He rose three days later so that by faith we will be forgiven and rise to, Now the interesting part is, He mentions "Just as by one man (adam) ALL were made sinners Now By One mans Rightousness (perfection) All are made Perfect/rightous, Jesus healed the wound opened by adam and eve, Faith in him causes us to recieve HIS perfection, It is the GIFT of God, not of anything you can do but what God did for you, the commandments were a teacher to show us we are IMPERFECT and NEED to be saved, Jesus FULFILLED the entire law, he was not born a sinner, he was perfect completly and being God he was able to fully save forever those who call on his name.
"That's a problem, yes, but..." Indeed it is a problem. If you believe God truly micromanages every event in the universe, especially every thought, word, and deed of every human being, then you truly do have a problem, an enormous, inescapable and unresolvable problem. You must conclude that every sin committed by every human being was actually forced upon each person by God Himself, as a puppet master controls the actions of his puppet. This leads to three inescapable conclusions: 1) Human beings are not responsible for their sins, since they have no choice in the matter and 2) God is the perpetrator of every sin that has ever been committed and 3) Redemption is irrelevant and the Cross has no meaning. No wonder people have been driven crazy by this doctrine. It's a crazy and irrational doctrine. The two solutions to this dilemma are either to conclude that this doctrine of extreme sovereignty of God is not correct or that the Bible is untrue and unreliable because it states that each person is responsible for his or her own sins and that there is no unrighteousness in God and that it is impossible for God to sin. For me the solution is simple. I do not see that this doctrine is truly taught in the Bible. The verse in Proverbs is only one verse, John Piper either misquotes it or is quoting an erroneous translation. It does not say what he claims it does.
JOHN MAINA Really? Could you please give those references? And, please, also explain how such references prove your point. Such an idea contradicts basic principles of scripture.
***** The doctrine is erroneous. The true doctrines of God do not cause people to go insane. John Piper and all who teach this doctrine are teaching false doctrine. For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a SOUND MIND. (2Ti 1:7)
This is reassuring. It makes me feel better that after the many mistakes that I've made in my life, they were still in God's plans. For my betterment in the long run. After a lot of trials and tribulations and suffering, I realized that God merely allowed me to go through them for a lighter path. This woman left me and I was heartbroken, but He knew she wasn't good for me. It wouldn't have ended well. He looks out for his children every step of the way. Even if it doesn't seem like it.
Jeremy Greenidge Does it make you feel better that god uses certain people to rape little children? I was going to say that god uses wicked perverts to rape children, but they didn’t really have any choice in the matter either, so they’re more or less victims in all of this as well.
@@LaughwithMAZ it absolutely is! Trust God on this!! He knows better❤Don’t lean on your own understanding, it will get you in trouble for decades or forever
this so called god is a menace to human beings and animals as well, people should not be selfish, just because a certain thing goes your way, look at all the misery in the world, especially concerning innocent children ,his so called plan if it ever existed stinks to high heaven
@@LaughwithMAZ you should have better things to worry about ,were not all Brad Pitt ,and it probably happened to him as well at some point ,were all on our own ,believing in a god is a waste of time
Dear calvinists! Have you ever tried to live consistent with Piper's view on God's sovereignty? I lived for one month and a half. It was the most terrible time of my life. I was struggling with ups and downs and asking myself why God didn't choose me? Why should I pray for my brother who is not saved if God didn't choose him? I was a student at theology preparing to go into ministry. Why should I preach the Gospel of everything is predetermined? Thank God He saved me from that thinking.
So what's your point? You are elected if you believe and have real faith. The difference is that you believe its your doing or you made the decision to be saved. The bible says that brfore the universe was made he chose us. Even if you believe it was all your doing how do you know it wasn't all predetermined? You don't know... After All no one comes to Christ unless the farther draws them. If God who holds the visible and invisible in place draws someone then I'm pretty sure they come. You tried for a month and a half living like a calvinist? So what your saying is that you couldn't just let go of pride? You have to be in control? You have to save your family members. You you you you You? I choose to except the fact that God is in control of everything and if one is saved they will at some point receive the gosple from someone because it's just what supposed to happen.
Mike Holloway,brother, GOD is the author of ‘Choice’ , The choice to obey is righteousness and the choice not to obey is sin HE is the all Just GOD, who believes in not forcing HIMself on us but giving us a free will to embrace HIM who is Everlasting Life, peace, Joy etc or choose otherwise which everlasting death, darkness, depression etc
Thank you for your admonition to not follow my heart. This is very good advice and I try to remind myself always in light of Jer.17:9 that I cannot trust my heart. I trust only what the word of God reveals to be true about it.
In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
I love the fact that though God is sovereign we are responsible. I wouldn't want to pray to God if He didn't control everything and everyone. I love you Jesus only because you first loved me.
So, you are telling me, that God controlled that person to rape those kids? He controlled that person ti be trans, and to shoot up that Christian school, killing three adults, and three kids? You are telling me that God controlled that person to be prideful, and to lust after that other person, even though scripture tells us, that pride and lust comes from the world? God is in control, byt he doesn't control everything.
Calvinism is confusing. Can one choose to believe in Jesus? Apparently not, as God pre-destined only the elect to do so, and pre-destined the rest to be lost. But I find it difficult to understand how there is meaning for us in this view. It's a puppet show with God as puppeteer. And a puppet show can have meaning...but not for the puppets. God creates Adam and pre-destines him to commit the Original Sin, which then all subsequent creation must be punished for, even though the only meaningful choice was God's? If I have to drive long distance at another person's request to give that other person something he is due, and that person intentionally gives me directions that lead me to the wrong place, why am I to blame for missing the meeting? Should that other person have the right to punish me?
You have the core of calvanism wrong, it is by grace that some are chosen, but that doesn’t mean the rest are predestined to be lost, everyone born into this world already is lost, so in a sense we owe God nothing and are already born in sin and death, calvanism also relies on the fact that, the natural man is so lost in his sins and has no natural desire to pursue God, he only has what’s interest to himself so therefore for a man to “willingly and naturally” come to God there has to be a part on Gods end in which he draws the said person out of their sins, otherwise he would never be able to or even have to desire to come.
@@002kenken Sovereignty is the right to rule. It is a declaration of Kingship. 'God knows the end from the beginning' is not the same as saying God determines every step in between.
@@002kenkenno it's not the meaning, sovereignty means God chooses however he wants to rule, NOT as the calvinist defines it, only in calvinism is Sovereignty described as total determinism, NO WHERE ELSE would that be defined as sovereignty. Redefining everything, that what the calvinist must do to holding to their precious doctrines that they have elevated over the Word of God
lol, blasphemy. you get that whole doctrine from a verse in proverbs... God does not tempt... I had no idea piper was so low in theology. this video contradict sooooo much of the Bible. if pipers right, then God punishes us for His Sin. punished Israel, sent judges to stop Israel doing bad even though God wanted them to do bad. so in your view, God is schizophrenic. he makes us do stuff then punishes us for it. Jesus cries at Jerusalem, cuz they wouldn't turn from their sin, but he was the one making them sin. so in your opinion, Jesus was crying over something he did. Piper, do you believe God regrets his 'decisions'?
The part with Jesus crying for Jerusalem is bull's eye. I can't believe people misinterpret the Bible to such extend that they believe in Calvinism. The whole theory is pure madness.
Wow, so much of this is just so wrong… it’ll be hard, but I’ll try to limit the scope of my reply to the original question: the idea of besetting sins. So, I’ll start my response with a confession: Lust and pride are both long-term besetting sins for me personally, and honestly, having run in various Christian circles for many years, I’m quite sure I’m not alone. Here’s what the apostle John says about whether God causes either of these commonly-besetting sins: “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.” (I Jn 2) Look carefully: Not from the Father. James is pretty clear in this regard too. When we experience temptation (and who doesn’t?), we can be confident that God has not determined this because “He Himself does not tempt anyone.” On the other hand, when I’m tempted, that’s on me--”each one is carried away by HIS OWN lust” (my emphasis--see Jas 1). Both texts are straightforward, both speak directly to the topic of besetting sins, and both falsify the strict determinism that folks like Piper advocate. Finally, just to close the loop, I’ll point out that the proverbs don’t speak at all to the issue of dust. If Piper and his disciples had a better understanding of the fact that God is not the cause of sin and evil, it would bring him the added benefit of not having to counsel his people who have been “driven mad” by his own bad theology (from the 4 min mark in the video), or twist himself into a pretzel by trying to argue that sin and evil somehow glorify God. On a personal level, Piper seems like a genuinely nice and sincere person, but it’s possible to be both of those things and still be desperately misguided. Finally, if lot-casting is still even relevant in a new testament economy, when I cast mine, it’s going to be with James and John (the apostle, that is)--not Mr. Piper. Thanks for listening.
Few things to reflect on: The defense of "free will" hinges on the argument that man is born into this world "neutral" - having the "autonomy", to choose for himself, apart from either influences of God or the devil, to either do good or bad... Is this Biblical? A white lie and a murder, both are of equal gravity in God's court - and so is the sin that fuels disobedience, questions divine authority - the sin of Pride. So When God says He is Sovereign, what does He really mean by that? Do we say "Amen" to that or do we get offended by it, or simply say, "it depends"? Does His authority cover all things or does His jurisdiction end where man's "free will" begins? Is He the Ordainer of things or is He, just like man, "beholden" to what He, as many of us conveniently refer to it, "foresaw in advance"? And since He has surrendered to man the outcome of his own free will, can man "actually" derail God's agenda? Lastly, when Jesus died on the cross and uttered the words, "It is finished", did He actually finished the work of salvation or just made man "savable"? Does a slave (in bondage to sin) have the freedom to determine his fate? Is a dead person able to make himself hear, see, understand and receive the gospel, without the awakening of the Holy Spirit? And is a dead person, made alive in Christ, choose to remain dead afterwards? Is Christ's saving grace not powerful enough to snatch and keep him out of the grave? May the Holy Spirit illumine our hearts and minds as we ponder on these questions and may He help us see the glory of the Father and the Son beyond the horror of the Cross! God bless!
All the world’s a stage, and all the men and women merely two-bit players; stumbling through their assigned roles, the elect, the un-elect, the good, the bad, the ugly, mere mindless robots, mere mindless puppets with the Calvinist god as master puppeteer, mere mindless muppets with the Calvinist god engineering the freak show inside a swirling morass of garbage in an ocean of sewage performing 7 billion simultaneous roles, as HIMSELF! And in the demented mind of the Calvinist cultist the Calvinist god wrote/arranged/produced and STARS IN all of this for glory, the Calvinist gods glory and the Calvinist gods sadistic pleasure! And you wonder why we think and know Calvinists are stark raving mad nutters!!!
I find the Calvinist conception of "sovereignty" quite strange. Who is more sovereign: A) Someone who has to predetermine everything, lest he would not be considered sovereign if the slightest thing occurs apart from his orders, or B) Someone who brings to pass whatever he wants, even though others are trying to work against him? To me, its clearly B, even if I don't factor in that A is blasphemous.
“Whosoever” disproves Calvinism ALL we who know God is love, know from 1 John 1:5, that "in him is no darkness whatsoever"; and we furthermore know, from 1 John 1:26 that "All that is in the world, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." God foreknew his blessings for those, in him, would be blessed with the same blessings he chose for those he foreknew - Israel would be his people (Jacob's people), as well as whosoever believes in him, through their belief in Jesus Christ, the firstborn unto Salvation, whose co heirs, are all who believe in him, "whosoever" as John 3:16 states, without one "but" added to it, but what is stated in it "but have eternal life." Calvinists have confused foreknowledge with authorship, and this argument just proved that God is light, in him is no darkness whatsoever, man is responsible for his sins, and thank God for Jesus Christ, in that, through him alone we can have eternal life - "WHOSOEVER" believes in him. Paul, in Galatians chapter 5, argues over Peter's blindsightedness of the circumcised and uncircumcised by stating "I wish they were cut off," (Galatians 5:12 - meaning - those agitators would both be excommunicated as well as, disemboweling themselves), and with such colorful arguments, audacity, and sense of finality, he demonstrated truly, God's hatred of SELF-righteousness, versus his love, shown in his mercy towards sinners turning towards him, whose reward is Salvation, sealed the Moment they believe in he who forgives the sins of the entire world, as clearly shown in Ephesians 1:13-14, which illustrates the role played by the Holy Spirit, sealing the promise and blessings of eternal life, for whosoever believes. Salvation is a gift of God, whose love cannot be removed, as Paul stated in Romans 8:38-39, and is for ALL who believe in him, Jew and Gentile alike. God, help Calvinists of all shades and colors see through and beyond their filter; and instead, use the lens of the Holy Spirit, who shall remind them of everything Jesus said through his Word, instead of leaning unto John Calvin's understandings, stemming from his incorrect assessment, as he argued "we are doomed from the womb." No, we are not; "whosoever believes" proves otherwise...
@@lachyjames1528 Plus, Calvinists do not believe that God is the author of sin but He is sovereign over sin. God permits it and limits it and exercises power over it. God doesn't cause sin (a holy God cannot do so), but He does preordain it. Jude tells us that the false teachers of his time were "foreordained to this condemnation" (Jude 4). God isn't the author of sin, but He is sovereign over it. God is sovereign over everything (Ephesians 1:11). God exercises a very meticulous providence!
Calvinism wants to assert that God arbitrarily predestines some few to Heaven and the majority to hell. BUT the Bible clearly teaches God's predestination is based on His FOREKNOWLEDGE.
No, for me it's just the opposite. Think about it this way... If God does orchestrate everything including the tragedies, that means He is in them with us and there's a reason that he orchestrated those tragedies even though we don't understand why or why me. Better that than a God who stands off to the sidelines wringing his hands because he's left things to chance or because he's not behaving as a sovereign in control of everything. If God is in everything then there's a reason and utility for it for us or others even though we often don't understand the why of it or even like it. But if God isn't in control of it then that means that we can't count on Him for anything really and what happened was not done to us with any particular purpose or reason in mind.
That’s total control and knowing that lifts the spirit. Because if you leave it up to us to have total control with our ego in charge may God help us all.
Just remember the verses before that say Pharaoh hardened his own heart. At a certain point, God began hardening as a judgment for Pharaoh first hardening it himself.
Calvinism is utterly guilty of making God the author of sin and evil. Calvinism is the epitome of Satanic evil. Check out what the following Calvinist apologists had to say regarding sin and evil: 1) Loraine Boettner - "Even the fall of Adam, and through him the fall of the race, was not by chance or accident, but was so ordained in the secret counsels of God" - In his book, "The Reformed doctrine of Predestination, page 234 2) Jerom Sanchius - "Surely, if God had not willed the fall, He could, and no doubt would, have prevented it; but He did not prevent it: ergo, He willed it. And if He willed it, He certainly decreed it." - In his book, "The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination" page 88. 3) A.W. Pink - "Plainly it was God's will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens save as God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a bare permission, for God only permits that which He has purposed." In his book, "The Sovereignty of God" page 147, (1961). 4) A.W. Pink - "Not only did His omniscient eye see Adam eating of the forbidden fruit, but He decreed beforehand that he should do so." In his book, "The Sovereignty of God" page 249 5) Edwin Palmer - "It is even Biblical to say that God has foreordained sin. If sin was outside the plan of God, then not a single important affair of life would be ruled by God." In his book, "The 5 Points of Calvinism" page 82 6) William Shedd - "Nothing comes to pass contrary to his desire. Nothing happens by chance. Even moral evil, which He abhors and forbids, occurs "by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God." In his book, "Calvinism: Pure and Mixed, page 37, 1986. 7) J. Gresham Machen - "All things including even the wicked actions of wicked men and devils -- are brought to pass in accordance with God's eternal purpose." In his book, "Christian View of Man, page 46, 1965. 8) William Shedd - "Sin is one of the "whatsoevers" that have "come to pass", all of which are "ordained". In his book, "Calvinism" Pure and Mixed, page 31, 1986.
@John Venkatesh God had foreknowledge regarding Adam and Eve's sinning, but that does not mean that He foreordained or "decreed" them to sin. That would make God the author of sin and evil. Calvinism teaches that God's foreknowledge equals foreordination. That is not true.
@John Venkatesh The Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Rape of Nanking, Pearl Harbor, and the 9/11 terrorist attacks were all foreknown by God, but He never decreed that those atrocities happen. Those atrocities were the result of the innate evil and wickedness of man. Calvinist apologists argue that God is the author of sin and evil. 1) Loraine Boettner - "Even the fall of Adam, and through him the fall of the race, was not by chance or accident, but was so ordained in the secret counsels of God" - In his book, "The Reformed doctrine of Predestination, page 234 2) Jerom Sanchius - "Surely, if God had not willed the fall, He could, and no doubt would, have prevented it; but He did not prevent it: ergo, HE WILLED IT. AND IF HE WILLED IT, HE CERTAINLY DECREED IT." - In his book, "The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination" page 88. 3) A.W. Pink - "Plainly it was God's will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens save as God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a bare permission, for God only permits that which He has purposed." In his book, "The Sovereignty of God" page 147, (1961). 4) A.W. Pink - "Not only did His omniscient eye see Adam eating of the forbidden fruit, BUT HE DECREED BEFOREHAND THAT HE SHOULD DO SO." In his book, "The Sovereignty of God" page 249 5) Edwin Palmer - "IT IS EVEN BIBLICAL TO SAY THAT GOD HAS FOREORDAINED SIN. If sin was outside the plan of God, then not a single important affair of life would be ruled by God." In his book, "The 5 Points of Calvinism" page 82 6) Edwin Palmer - "All things that happen in all the world at any time and in all history-whether with inorganic matter, vegetation, animals, man, or angels (both the good and evil ones)-come to pass because God ordained them. EVEN SIN -- THE FALL OF THE DEVIL FROM HEAVEN, THE FALL OF ADAM, AND EVERY EVIL THOUGHT, WORD, AND DEED IN ALL OF HISTORY, INCLUDING THE WORST SIN OF ALL, Judas’ betrayal of Christ-is included in the eternal decree of our holy God." - page 120, Edwin Palmer - in his book, "The 5 Points of Calvinism". 7) Edwin Palmer - "SIN IS NOT ONLY FOREKNOWN BY GOD, IT IS ALSO FOREORDAINED BY GOD" - On page 122, 1980 in his book, ""The 5 Points of Calvinism".
@John Venkatesh If your beloved spouse or other close loved one got raped which permanently traumatizes them for the rest of their lives, are you going to conclude that God "foreordained" and "decreed" that atrocity to happen to your loved one?? Are you going to tell them that God did that "according to secret counsels of his will" and "according to his sovereign good pleasure"???? Ezekiel 18:23 - 23 HAVE I ANY PLEASURE AT ALL THAT THE WICKED SHOULD DIE? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? Ezekiel 18:32 - 32 FOR I HAVE NO PLEASURE in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: WHEREFORE TURN YOURSELVES and live ye. Ezekiel 33:11 - 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I HAVE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF WICKED; but that the wicked turn from his way and live:TURN YE, TURN YE from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
@John Venkatesh No, that is not an emotional argument. I provided Scripture to back up my assertion, whereas you have not provided any Scripture whatsoever, but are relying on your emotions, feelings, and philosophical presuppositions of Augustinianism/Calvinism.
So we are puppets that get judged for something that we didn’t do. God loves us so much that he sends us to hell and tortures us forever for something we aren’t responsible for. If I am understanding this correctly, this makes god a moral monster
Dear John Piper, The dice/lot does not have a soul nor free will. Its result is naturally dependent on the physics of the throw, orchestrated and determined by God (though to man, it seems to be random). Thus, I'm afraid, this scripture on the dice/lot isn't relevant on the discussion of free-will in the context of man.
"It does not say God turned it around for good. It actually says God intended it for good." That's right. Remember, God intended it for good. It does NOT SAY that God decreed for Joseph's brothers to mistreat him. So remember that.
He did planned his brothers to hate on him and mistreat him, just like God gave Joseph his dreams, and place in Egypt, his time in prison and as a ruler, and his death too. And God does all of these things for each and everyone. You have no control over anything whatsoever. Dont worry man, even before Abraham was, you are, and so i am. The end game of all of this is to become gods, and that too is predetermined by God to happen, and there is no escaping it.
Instead of arguing here just look at yourself and your relationship with God. Some people using such words that a godly person can't even use against a wretched sinner. Okay if Piper is wrong then who allowed you to judge him and use abusive words for him(Let only God be the judge) ?? Do you people learn it from your scripture?? Criticize your brother with abusive words, does your scripture teach you so?? One thing is clear Matthew 7:16 (You will recognize them by their fruits). Your abusive words show your fruits and your doctrine. Some say they know Jesus Christ but they will enjoy when their brother will go to hell. If we think we know everything about God and His word let's not waste our time abusing each other . Instead take the Gospel to those who never heard of it. Pray for those who you think are going in wrong direction. By showing your intellect here you can't please God.
If God predestines everything, how can there be sin? Sin is missing God's will on something. If God predestines EVERYTHING there is no chance of missing His will.
How can we make a choice about the cross if every decision is already determined by God? Calvinists are confused, and if you let them, they will confuse you also. So, are you saying that God decreed child rape? James White says yes. If God is the one who decreed all things, both good and evil, then where is culpability? There is no need for judgement, and what sense is there in preaching the gospel? God knows who will be saved, and in fact has already saved them. I am so grateful for the neutral perspective God has given me. The Bible teaches both predestination and free will. Since both are Biblical doctrines, how do we bring the two together, forming one cohesive truth? Understanding foreknowledge and God's permissive will is key to understanding God's plan. Romans 8:29 is my starting point. The Greek proginosko can only be translated foreknow or foresee. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate..." Peter also used the same word, in the same context. 1Pet.1:2 reads: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..." God knew what we would do when the gospel was preached to us, then allowed our life to take its specific course, thus bringing us to that exact moment of choice, because he knew what we would choose. God never violates our free will to choose! If he forced us to love him, is that really love? Isn't that called rape? The Holy Spirit is the spirit of prophecy; so to deny God's foreknowledge is to deny the prophetic aspect of Scripture. We also need to consider Job. In the book of Job, we see God's permissive will in action. He allowed the devil to afflict Job. God did not do it. The devil asked for permission and God granted it, with the exception of sparing the life of Job. When the Bible ascribes evil to God, it is simply saying that God permitted evil. Every one is tempted when they are drawn away by their own lust. The controversy is settled in one verse of Scripture. Proverbs 16:9 answered this lifelong search for me. "A man's heart (or mind) devises his way, but the Lord directs his steps." In this verse we see both free will choice and sovereign direction. God put the tree in the garden so that Adam would have a choice. While Adam made the wrong choice, God foreknew it and therefore had a backup plan. Calvinists believe in a God that forces himself upon his subjects. John Calvin forced himself upon his subjects, and now his followers are trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us. If you are saved, you were predestined, but only because of God's foreknowledge. Don't believe the heretical lies of Calvinists. Pray for them, but don't follow them. Your testimony will be silenced. When have you ever heard a Calvinist give an altar call? Choose you this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord! in Jesus name, Pastor Brett
+Nimrod Thank the Lord. I am saddened that people will follow Calvinists like Piper, McArthur, White and others, without examining the Scriptures. Search the Scriptures daily, to see whether the things I say are true. Never accept anything anyone says unless you are certain that it aligns with Scripture. Blessings to you brother! in Jesus name, Pastor Brett
A helpful comment, though I do have a couple of comments! 1) "God never violates our free will to choose." Actually I do entirely agree with you on this, and in fact I believe God never violates anyone's free will to choose anything. 2) I think there is a flaw in your logic considering that God knows what someone will freely choose, and this may clear things up between us. Suppose God knows that Bob will choose "A". God knows this well in advance of even creating Bob, He has seen in the future and knows with all certainty that Bob will choose "A". No doubt. So then the time rolls along, and we come to it, and now Bob is about to make the choice. What will he choose? He will choose "A"! In fact we have stated we know this with all certainty! Now our knowing this didn't effect Bob's choosing. He sat down, weighed the options, scratched his head, considered carefully, and chose "A" all by himself, a free choice. But see, if God knew He would choose "A", then there is absolutely no chance of Bob choosing anything else other than "A". Though it seemed very much a free choice to Bob, it was from eternity past already predestined with all sureness that Bob would 'freely' choose "A". It's readily evident "A" may be replaced with choosing Jesus. Or really anything else. Whether it was Judas choosing to betray Jesus, myself choosing to follow Jesus, or the electrons in my chair to spin around their axes, through admission of foreknowing all these things all of this was predetermined before God set the universe into motion, and there is not a chance anything could be any other way. That doesn't force anything on us. I still have to choose every day to follow Jesus. If I don't I have sinned. From God's perspective is there any chance I would have done anything else other than sin? No, God knew from eternity past that this would come to pass. But this does not give me any excuse. My hope is in my sovereign God who ordains both the sparrow and the arrow and so I pray for the strength to keep choosing day in and day out.
+Carson Baker This was very well articulated. We actually appear to agree perfectly on this subject. I think the problem is semantics. Where some reformed thinkers would say that God decreed every event in history, before the foundation of the world; we would say that God foresaw it, foreknew it would happen, and allowed it to happen. There are still those reformed thinkers that say God made it happen. I think there is a profound difference in the use of "make", as opposed to the use of "allow". Still an issue of semantics, but one that cannot be overlooked. When explaining these in depth truths many believers, we can certainly confuse them. This is why it is important to understand the original languages. Especially with the use of proginosko in Romans 8: 29 and 1Peter1: 2. God's predestined plan is based on His foreknowledge of future events. If we are in agreement, then let us work together, expressing this truth instead of propagating the confusion of 5 point Calvinism. Let me also say that some would ostracize us for thinking this way. Prepare for opposition. This conversation is truly edifying. Thank you for taking the time to respond in such a Christ like fashion. Blessings to you brother.
+Pastor Brett Thank you for your explanation. I also believe that God's predestined plan is based on His foreknowledge of future events and Carson's analogy explained it very well. Yet there is a statement I don't understand in your initial comment: "While Adam made the wrong choice, God foreknew it and therefore had a backup plan". If God is sovereign, it's clear that His plan can never failed. Then, how could God had a backup plan?
I don't think it's correct brother. There's different angles to this misunderstanding. 1. Faith is not a work, as Calvinists keep saying. That's opposite of what the Bible says 2. Just because God foreknows the future, does not mean it has been determined and forced by God. Freewill and foreknowledge are both possibly in coexistence, no contradiction 3. Just because God can't do morally good things does not mean man can't understand what's right or wrong. Man has the law in his heart to convict, even as a non-believer, (Roms 1). Faith does not give God a command, as Calvinists say. Faith does not rob God's glory because man willfully using his faith is exactly part of God's plan and makes relationships genuine. God wants us to choose him. 4. Various scriptures show God saying he is good to all, mercy is for all and God loves all, even love to your enemies, yes even those who hate God. It's not farfetched that God reaches out to his enemies or those that don't want God
@@chan-qs9zo I seriously think that was sarcastic. The whole of the scriptures show that faith is not a work. The book of James speaks about making Faith and Works as opposites in glory and in different categories. You get saved by faith, not works. That's fairly clear
What an absurd theological observation regarding predestination. I suppose every time my cat hurls a fur ball that was predetermined from the beginning of time? How are you supposed to make that choice about the cross if God doesn't give you the capacity to make it (total depravity) regarding the sin that He predetermined that you would commit? This is nonsense. If you make that choice about the cross it's because you had the capacity from the time that you were old enough to make choices, not because God predetermined it.
If you disregard original sin and believe you are entitled to something, Piper is a Satanic false teacher. If you understand original sin and the state of man after the fall, and believe that the only thing you are entitled to without God is hell, Piper is exactly right. Lets go to the root of the problem folks. Do you serve your own God or the God of scripture? “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;no one does good, not even one." Romans 3:11-12
I agree that without God and His grace, I am hellbound. I disagree with Piper that I dont have a choice of accepting that grace. I also believe I can choose to sin or choose not to sin, and the only part God plays in that choice is His implementation of consequence that He has already designed beforehand knowing what I would choose. God does not ever take or get credit or responsibility for man's sin. When he hardened Pharoah's heart, Pharoah had already rejected Him, which illustrates clearly that God *can* and just *might* affect or influence man for His glory and purpose. God never indicates in His word, at least not that I have read, where He makes man's choice for man or mankind. That is my dilemma with anyone who follows Calvin...I follow Christ as He leads me, I read His word, as for this Calvin fellow, well I dont know him.
So, God made that person rape those kids, for his glory. No, I think not. So, God made that person to be prideful, and made that person to lust, for his glory. I think not, because scripture tells us, that pride and lust come from the world.
If God doesn't give mankind freewill, then He is forcing people to sin. That is NOT the God of the Bible. God doesn't relinquish His Sovereignty by giving man enough freewill to accept or reject God's offer of pardon, through Christ dying on the cross. God, in His sovereignty, decides to allow us to choose right from wrong.
True there are MANY places in scripture old and new testament that show God is literally in control of Literally everything that happens. no bird dies apart from his will. He has absolute tabs on everything even the numbers of hairs on our heads. Thats Amazing
Bernard boateng - Yes, God is all powerful & in control of everything, He knew all of us before we were even born - I love God & His Son, Jesus, who died for my sins & for all mankind so we may have eternal life IF we accept Him as our Savior - we have a choice ( free will), either heaven or hell, you decide before it’s too late - God bless
Soooo this debate between calvinism and arminiasm has caused a huge controversy. I always kind of took what Piper taught with a grain of salt, and I remember listening to Piper years ago and his message always centered directly around Christ which was the only teaching that ever drew me in. I still love John Piper but I personally think that trying to fully understand predestination is not possible unless God, Himself has graced within your mind and understanding any ounce of His knowledge concerning it because scripture clearly says that His ways are above are ways and His thoughts are above our thoughts. I look at points from both views and can possibly see some possibilities, but I can see how it has caused discord in many ways. I've seen some calvinsts go as far as having the mindset along the lines of "well, i'm personally selected by God, therefore I can't lose my salvation." which is dangerous thinking....the stance I take on it is that those that will be truly saved and will endure to the end, were known and are known by God because He has understanding of all things, there is nothing that He doesn't know. God is a God of fairness and justice. Those that ignorantly follow after doctrines of demons, apostate theology, deception, and any anti-Christ doctrine, you can be assured that God sees their ignorance, those that are His, He will not allow to be completely led astray without correction because He is their Father, and as a Father, He corrects those that are His children. Without correction, they are not His children. The ignorance within a believer's mind can clearly be seen by God, in it's full entirety. This should prompt us to stay in constant, consistent prayer and communion with the Lord. I find it so compelling to pray for my heart and mind to be renewed and cleansed by God, and for myself to be examined for any unrighteousness that may be there. Those that are truly the Father's are being transformed into the image of Christ. I can think of certain verses and i'm paraphrasing, about those that are fitted for destruction, and those that he foreknew he predestined to be made into the image of Christ, when you take into account that there is not a feather that can drift in any place at anytime that has not been foreseen by God, everything has been planned and seen beforehand.
I also wanted to add that, I think that what Piper said is actually correct when you truly understand that God knows all things. It's not too hard for me to understand that. I just don't associate myself with being a calvinist or an arminiast, or any of the like.
***** Lol all glory to God, i'm glad you found it helped in some way. I've been looking at the different sides for some years since I've gotten saved, what triggered me to dig deeper was the fact that in my mind, I kept running into this one specific thought. I took it into prayer and literally was distraught thinking about it, then through prayer and with God straightening out and strengthening my understanding, I started to understand it! God is awesome like that!
Kaylah Erin Turner I am hesitant to say yes because many have a misinformed view of, or misunderstanding of the doctrines of grace. In fact, LITERALLY every person whom I have spoken to on the topic that are not "Calvinists", misrepresents the doctrines of grace. Whether the cause is a misunderstanding of the doctrines of grace or an intentional misrepresentation. Either way, they are always attacking a "straw man". And every person who does understand it correctly is already a "Calvinist" lol. These are only those whom I have spoken to about the topic. So yes, I am a "Calvinist". But (and I think you understand this) we do NOT hold Calvin higher in any way, shape, or form, then other men. John Calvin was a wretched sinner just like every human being on earth and we ALL deserve God's wrath. I merely agree with his interpretation of the bible and believe it to be the accurate understanding of scripture.
How can we make a choice about the cross if every decision is already determined by God? Calvinists are confused, and if you let them, they will confuse you also. So, are you saying that God decreed child rape? James White says yes. If God is the one who decreed all things, both good and evil, then where is culpability? There is no need for judgement, and what sense is there in preaching the gospel? God knows who will be saved, and in fact has already saved them. I am so grateful for the neutral perspective God has given me. The Bible teaches both predestination and free will. Since both are Biblical doctrines, how do we bring the two together, forming one cohesive truth? Understanding foreknowledge and God's permissive will is key to understanding God's plan. Romans 8:29 is my starting point. The Greek proginosko can only be translated foreknow or foresee. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate..." Peter also used the same word, in the same context. 1Pet.1:2 reads: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..." God knew what we would do when the gospel was preached to us, then allowed our life to take its specific course, thus bringing us to that exact moment of choice, because he knew what we would choose. God never violates our free will to choose! If he forced us to love him, is that really love? Isn't that called rape? The Holy Spirit is the spirit of prophecy; so to deny God's foreknowledge is to deny the prophetic aspect of Scripture. We also need to consider Job. In the book of Job, we see God's permissive will in action. He allowed the devil to afflict Job. God did not do it. The devil asked for permission and God granted it, with the exception of sparing the life of Job. When the Bible ascribes evil to God, it is simply saying that God permitted evil. Every one is tempted when they are drawn away by their own lust. The controversy is settled in one verse of Scripture. Proverbs 16:9 answered this lifelong search for me. "A man's heart (or mind) devises his way, but the Lord directs his steps." In this verse we see both free will choice and sovereign direction. God put the tree in the garden so that Adam would have a choice. While Adam made the wrong choice, God foreknew it and therefore had a backup plan. Calvinists believe in a God that forces himself upon his subjects. John Calvin forced himself upon his subjects, and now his followers are trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us. If you are saved, you were predestined, but only because of God's foreknowledge. Don't believe the heretical lies of Calvinists. Pray for them, but don't follow them. Your testimony will be silenced. When have you ever heard a Calvinist give an altar call? Choose you this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord! in Jesus name, Pastor Brett
One day Christ will return and every person will see Him in His glory. No opinions will be entertained. Everyone will be silenced and know that He is the great, "I AM"
evidence?
Yeah yeah we get it, we burn in Hell and you go to
Heaven. Sweet, sweet heaven...
Leon Gackenheit I am not going to heaven because I've earned it. I'm no better than anyone else. Trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of you sins. Anyone who believes and asks is forgiven. :)
@@Vincentvuoto no, only the elect get forgiven
@kevin purdy
lol, you're funny...
1. God creates creatures which become evil (Isa. 45.7)
2. Creates the wicked for the day of evil (prov. 16:4)
3. Is free to do as He pleases and is perfect in His ways (Dan. 4:35)
4. Saves individuals according to the good pleasure of His will doesn't mean that people aren't free in other decisions which they make.
James 1:13
New International Version (NIV)
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
He allows evil befall us.
Eagle Eye , no, he cannot be calvinistically sovereign, and then allow things to happen. He has to be in control of all. Did you watch the first 20 seconds of the video?!? God is in control of it all. There is no “let befall” in Calvinism.
@@craigjoyner9857 Who is talking about Calvinism in the first place? How is God "in control" when hundreds of thousands of people alone are committing suicide every year? In fact, the Devil has no power. He can`t do absolutely anything without God`s approval. God allows evil befall us in hope that we turn to Him, but in the vast majority of cases, people become too damaged in the process and lose any kind of motivation to carry on. It seems, we (God and we) don`t understand each other.
Eagle Eye , John MacArthur is a staunch calvinist/reformed theologian. When he answers this question, he is speaking from the Calvinistic perspective. There is no “let happen” in Calvinism/reformed theology. The only thing that happens, is what god decreed to happen.
This is why I am opposed to Calvinism/reformed theology and consider it a different gospel.
@@craigjoyner9857 This is not John MacArthur but John Piper. You`ve obviously mixed them up.
Piper says, “At the center to the solution of the problem is a choice YOU have to make about the cross”? If God determines everything how does that work? It’s contradictory.
Free will is the ability to choose something freely, the ability to want to do something. It’s not the ability to act on your own without God. That’s important to understand
God is omniscient and omnipotent and of course that means that everything that is happening in this world is caused by him, he wills and does everything, otherwise he wouldn’t be God. So yes, according to the Bible everything is pure fate and predetermined.
If you say, that this kind of predetermined world doesn’t make sense, then you don’t understand what it means to be a creator and what it means to be its creation.
It automatically means it’s only important what God wants, not what his creation wants. As a creator you can wreck your creation or not like I destroy the gift wrap and get rid of it but keep the present. It’s not important what the gift wrap wants, it’s important what I who just wants to keep the present wants.
When I complain that everything is predestined and God does what he wants, it's like my gift wrap complaining about why I do what I want.
Also, Saying people could choose to sin is very stupid. It’s funny because that thought denies God. Only God is holy, only he can give you the ability not to sin. People who are like
Yeah, but Satan chose to sin that’s why God will punish him with hell is so weird. In the beginning every living being God created didn’t sin at all by his protection.
Now you want to tell me there is some kind of creation of God like an angel who is like
„No God, I don’t care about your protection. I will sin now“ hahahah what’s that being who can do that. That would mean that today everyone in heaven could do the same thing the devil did in heaven. No difference.
Revelation 17,17
Philippians 2,13
Romans 9,19
He is saying God is responsible for rape murder and heresy? absurd! Calvinism is really out there. What does he mean we have to make a “choice about the cross”?? thats a contradiction of Calvinism.
You'll never understand unless you're filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit told me that everything is EXACTLY the way it's supposed to be. Just because you don't know the reason , doesn't make it not true.
Choice =/= Free choice
We have our own will but it is ultimately not free. We are either slaves to sin or redeemed by Christ.
This is a hard topic, and if you cannot wrap your mind around it just trust. Like proverbs 3:5 says: Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.❤
Yes, praise Jesus. I can submit to these truths even if I don't understand them entirely. Same way I submit to the doctrine of the Trinity, Christ's Deity/Humanity, the in-filling of the Holy Spirit in believers, and on and on. AMEN
It is a hard topic because Piper is totally wrong. God does not even tempt men to sin, the Bible says! This is insanity to say that God has anything to do with sin. He is righteous and holy.
Yep, don't lean on your own understanding. But you can understand the kind of power Piper talks about, it's a very human centric kind of power. All about himself and complete control. Yet God doesn't say he is like that. He says that neither power, knowledge or even kindness is valuable without love. He says that he will never tempt us. He says he does not even think of our evil, let alone command it. ( Jeremiah 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind)
So if that is hard to wrap your mind around, don't worry about it, and simply trust him
Better to reject his perversion of Gods character and believe the gospel of the bible.
@@christalone71 Doctrine brought about by the *imagination* of mankind is Satanic.
What people DON'T or REFUSE to UNDERSTAND is.... GOD IS SOVEREIGN AND HE SIMPLY CAN DO ANYTHING HE WANTS, AND HE IS ALWAYS JUST & RIGHTEOUS. who are we to discuss HIS ways. PERIOD.
So the speaker on this video should keep his mouth shut?
So you are telling me i should believe in a God that would predestine me to hell?
I struggle with this stuff too. But it's encouraging to know that He works it all out for the good of those who love Him.
But He determines who is elect and makes them love Him. He chooses to create love in the hearts of some and chooses not to intervene in the hearts of others (who, so far as we know, may still choose to love Him, but who in their fallen state still are not among the elect).
"For though the twins were not yet born and had not yet done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose *according to His choice* would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, 'THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.' Just as it is written: 'JACOB I HAVE LOVED, BUT ESAU I HAVE HATED.'” Romans 9:11-13
Predestination assumes God intervenes in the hearts of the elect to make them follow the narrow path of salvation. Some believe He intervenes in the hearts of the non-elect to ensure they fall short, but the more orthodox Calvinist view is that He merely decides to not grant them mercy and leaves them to their own devices, knowing that that means they are damned. Still, that by itself doesn't mean those people won't love God at all, even if only to try to earn salvation by accepting Jesus in their own imperfect, fallen, and inadequate way.
For all those who love him??? But he also made all those who don’t love him to not love him. So they go to hell because god simply did not want them to love him.
thats fine for the elect only. you have no good news to share with thenon elect. you r a dumb person
@@Pandaemoni standard calvanist verses out of context. Jesus calls ALL to repent. He calls ALL to believe. We have a choice and free will and it does NOT take God's glory
Calvinism is satanic
Its strange how this man talks to us like we can make choices but also says that God has predetermined every single thing that we do and all that happens.
Both are true what are ya gonna do! 🤷♂️
All that really matters for us is the illusion of free will. Doesn't matter whether God already chose something for us, since we seem to get to choose for ourselves what is is that God has already planned!
In this view:
If I choose to sin, then God already decided I would sin.
If I choose not to sin, then God already decided I would not sin.
So, I get to choose whether or not God already decided I would sin!
I don't think it has to be personal with Piper, remember that this is a long-standing question in Christianity and philosophy, he is not the only one that teaches this, nor did he came up with it.
Right. It can be one or the other.
A choice you have to make about the cross? Or a choice you hope God has already made for you before you were born?
If you get arrogant with these doctrines isn’t it because God determines you would? If you stay humble, God determined it?
Yes. If Calvinism is true, I was predetermined not to believe it. On the other hand, if it is not true there is still hope for those who think it is.
I am one of those who is going insane trying to comprehend what you said.
On the other hand, I respect you for not dodging the question like many others do.
Edit: 3 years later, today in Feb 12th 2022 (I must have written my original comment on 2019 before Covid hit), I understand God's sovereignty in a different, and more acceptable way. I believe that the solution is in what he said @4:10 like one of the comments mentioned below.
I accept what I don't understand, and turn to the cross where He solved the problem of sin and gave me salvation and redemption from death.
Everything else come secondary to this insight.
God bless you all.
“It won’t drive you mad, if you say, he loves me”
4:10
Because it's not biblical. He doesn't know God. No one who accuses God for all the evil in the world knows God.
@@bobbyadkins6983 so God never predestined and had a His hand in the greatest sin and atrocity ever committed as stated in Acts 4? Who’s the one that doesn’t know God?
@@bobbyadkins6983 it’s nice that you provide scripture for your accusations.
What a bunch of non-sense. If you actually know your Bible you can see through all this glamorous dialogue. Why would anyone worship a God that makes you sin then judge you for it? Yes, God is in everything but we all know some things go outside of God's plan, such as; school shootings, terrorism, suicide, etc...This is shocking to hear from such a man like Piper.
Why didn't he stop it?
Leon Gackenheit It's not his job to push the stop or go button in our lives.
Commentary on predestination: Lastly, in Romans 9:17-23, Paul anticipates the expected question, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? (v. 19). He then provides the answer, "But who are you O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?" (vv. 20-22). For many, this is not the answer they are looking for. Yet, this is the answer that Scripture supplies. The doctrine of predestination cannot be completely understood, for it is an act that resides in the mind of an infinite being, and we, as finite humans, cannot understand this (see knowability of God). ------also, before they had committed any deed, the Lord deemed that 'Jacob I loved but Esau I hated" Romans 9:13. It is a difficult doctrine to understand given our human sense of fairness, which does not align with God's. I struggle with this sometimes
Its this simple; God is all knowing, future, past, present. He creates in his omniscience. He does not decree the sin but merely lets life play out.
***** I don't get your point.
One thing I say about calvanist, they sure know how to skate around questions and they are knowing for quoting outside sources to support scripture. This was one big word salad. A student of the scriptures can recognize that he didn't say anything🤦
Piper: "Yes."
Then goes straight to Spurgeon. Good Lord man...Piper is wrong, wrong, wrong. What choice about the Cross is he talking about anyway? The one he means that God predetermined for you to have? Please. Governance and fatalistic determinism are two totally different things. Piper definitely clubs you over the head with his garbage. He is in error.
I love this comment continue to expose these antichrist
"And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."
Jeremiah 32:35
Put that in your Piper and smoke it.
Check out luke10:31 ...by chance
If God determines everything, then He sent Christ to redeem the very sins he determined to happen... He has to redeem his own choices?
How dare you show inconsistencies with Calvinism! Who are you oh man? :-)
@@rocketsurgeon1746 you think your smart , you dont even truly know what Calvinism says for sure ..... ask yourself this question , " as dumb as i am , and as dumb as i can be , if i can seem to find inconsistencies with Calvinism why those great reformers seem to miss this thing? " nd then search and enlighten urself with what they said bout it , smh
Foreknowing and predetermining are different
I think this might be the key
Also, foreknowledge is not causative.
Foreknowledge and not causative is not sovereign. Foreknowing of God (in the peers down the corridors sense) also suggests God is bound by time. Making God subject to time, makes time a god, in which God is subjected to. Is God the creator of time or has it always been?
Foreknowledge does not suggest God is bound by time. He has foreknowledge precisely BECAUSE He is outside of time. We see time linearly as we go from past to present to future in our lives, but He stands outside of it and sees it all at once. That is why He foreknew us because He sees the end from the beginning.
Not 'always' I would say. I would say that God predetermined what would happen, but He surely didn't intend or want it all to happen. His giving of choice is real I believe... God doesn't pretend to give us a choice to sin or not to sin, He does and our nature does what it does.
If God predetermined the sin I commit then why am I held responsible for it and eternally damned for something God predetermined that I should commit?
Exactly if he made us sinners why is he taking it out in us? And then why do Christians say babies are born pure if we all are destined to sin? Also sin is determined by what society says is a sin not god ..... the Bible has been manipulated and changed to fit the man in powers agenda
@@amandah.2202 Somethings we now no longer consider to be sin were considered to be sin in earlier years. If we say that sin is what society says it is, then that means that what is and isn't sin has an evolving standard. But God is the one who sets the standard of right and wrong and his standard doesn't change. What God said was sin years ago is still sin in God's eyes today.
BT3701 exactly my point sin isn’t what gods says sins are it’s created by human
@@amandah.2202 Man wouldn't know what is and isn't sin unless God had first told us what it was by giving us 10 Commandments
Did you not say sin changes?
Teaching that God Predestines and decrees all things that come too pass is a very blasphemous and demonic teaching.
It is literally accusing God of being the author of sin.
the Calvinist God is not the God of the bible.
(Eph 1:11
11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,)
Note: (All things according to his will)
All praise and glory to Christ Jesus, KING of Kings, and LORD of Lords.
🔥🌷
Gotta watch your words here. God isn't the author of sin. Sometimes our attempts to define the ways of God come across as double-talk.
If God is not in total control, he is a limited god and one whom would leave us with much doubt and uncertainty regarding our salvation in one who can't control the day from the night. But that is not the God of the Bible. He is bound by no limitations. He is ALMIGHTY and SOVEREIGN. (Genesis 15:20; 1 Chronicles 29:11; Proverbs 19:21, 16:9, 16:4; Jeremiah 29:11; Ephesians 1:11; Isaiah 55:8-11; etc)
Mark Sisson - God is not sin, I totally agree
Rachel Bear God is infinitely intelligent. He doesn’t need to be a puppet master.
@@JonathanGrandt God is the only being that has libertarian free will. We are creatures that God has all control. In Daniel 4, it talks about how God does according to his will and that no one can say to him why did u do that. God's will overrides the creatures free will. Just as Piper said if we stay with the cross we will see.
Calvinists are perverts. They believe God is a "sovereign" puppeteer.
Piper: "Everything, including every sinful thing, is ultimately governed by God."
Also Piper: "The center of the solution to the problem is a choice you have to make about the cross"
Someone explain to me how God can predetermine everything, down to the movement of a dust particle, and then Piper can say that I have a choice to make about the cross? If God predetermined everything, I can't see how there is any choice on our part.
Exactly Daniel.
Well stated, my friend.
I personally prefer Molinism as an explanation of God’s sovereignty.
William Lane Craig describes it well and pulls Calvinism apart.
The other issue I have is that Calvinism calls God the author of evil, and that everyone’s fate sealed from the conception of time.
This theology caused many of my Christian friends to despise God and fall away.
Mankind are responsible for our choices… We reap what we sow…Choose Jesus and reject sin… it’s up to us!
God's eternal, he knows who will reject him from before the foundation of the world. He plants the seed in the elect in order that they'll receive the gospel. Much of the scriptures we can't comprehend by either view on free will, it's above our pay grade. God used many evil people to achieve great things without them even knowing they were in his service. One day, believers will have all of these answers.
@@stevehardwick1578 I agree with you that one day we’ll know all the answers.
However, I strongly disagree that God plants seeds into the elect. Do you have a verse for that?
@@timg4718 Ephesians 1 is a great example and there are many more, simply do a search.
@@timg4718 I'd suggest watching John MacArthur's videos on the subject of predestination. He's a great teacher and easy to follow.
I think that God knows everything, He knows every detail of every future event in every person's life before it occurs. Free will would suggest that He knows the choices we will make but doesn't cause us to make them, unless we ask Him to intervene. Of course, He knows if we will ask Him and He knows who are His, even before they existed. Also, God can influence the future through His plans, which never fail - His plans are always good and perfect, God either redeems or He destroys, either way He is just because He's admistering justice. So our will is often different from His will, because His will is always good, merciful and loving, while our will is foolish, proud and selfish - One of the beautiful things about God is that He gives us free will, He doesn't create robot's. His will ultimately must be done and ultimately will be done, but not at the expense of man's free will - It's not His will that sin should reign in people's hearts, it's the people's will, and yet God turns wickedness into grace and glory, yet He himself did not cause the wickedness. God is love, not sin! God is Good, God is kind, God is just! God is light, and there is NO darkness in Him at all!
God literally says in Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
@@tiff3156 Darkness (representing evil or calimity) doesn't meant that God is the source of evil. Bible teaches that evil is the result of humanity's choice to rebel against God and turn away from His ways. But the point is even in the midst of these difficulties God is still in control and working for the good of those who love Him.
@@minmin_haokipbut who predetermined human to sin originally???
@@ovandograham7793 In Christian belief, specifically in regard to this, it's not so much about predestination but about the free will of Adam and Eve. They were given the choice to obey or disobey God's command in the Garden of Eden, and their disobedience is what's often referred to as the 'original sin.' It's seen as a result of their own choice rather than something predetermined. Genesis 2:17 (NIV): "But you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
@@minmin_haokip I understand this but since discovering new information my opinion has changed. It says in the Bible has the potter not have power over the clay and it also says he determined things long ago. God is sovereign is over everything so nothing goes on without him permitting it. He wrote the script to life. Adam and Eve sin due to Gods script but I’ve realised you need to be able to accept that God can some how design sin (for his glory to show his justice) but in a way that makes him NOT sin
Every time I see Piper's video there is an argument going on these comment. I also have tried to argue with someone and its pointless. Bible is very simple to me at least. Love people Love God Serve Other with Love that has given to us By Jesus. I just think its waste of energy and time to argue when we can go out to the world and love others. Love, Faith, Hope that's what we should hold on to. First and most of all is love.
so what is your answer when someone says what is the hope that is in you? why the Bible?
It's so seductive to talk about all this. Blessed the men or women that understand that not everything we can explain not all is revealed to us. Only what is nessisary to find and believe in jesus
He said it!! "Every horrible thing and every sinful thing is governed by God". And then he said God planned the worst wickedness in history. Can you imagine this guy being your public spokesman???!!!!!!!!!
Rom 1:22 _"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, ..."_
Scripture clearly tells us that God is sovereign over all things and that we are held accountable for our actions. The Acts 2:23 clearly states this was predetermined by God. Praise God for John Piper
@@dsuggs4694 Ppl may *know about* someone, but one that has had a *personal* relationship of the One in question; as one who he/she had become intimately related with The One in question, is the one that actually *knows* the Person.
One knowing *about* God, is one that is *_"ever learning,_*_ but __-never able-__ to _*_come_*_ to The Knowledge of The Truth."_
Placing such a one in the category of the Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus' day.
Not questioning you about the *Sovereignty* of God, nor of our accountability of our actions we take within our lifetime.
The question is about *The Justice* of God, towards that of humanity.
Certainly He has control over *all* things, such as the *not allowing* Satan to do to Job, beyond the *permission* given of God towards him.
He also has a *permissive* will, and *a perfect* will, when dealing with the worshippers of God.
As in Balaam's approaching Him correctly,, and his (Balaam's) action afterwards, when he was determined to curse Israel, he was placing a *blessing* upon them instead.
His first response was His Perfect Will, saying "Don't go!"
Yet Balaam approached Him *again,* to try to persuade Him to -change- His Decision, and be *allowed* to go and try again.
Thereby was Granted to him His *permissive* will.
His *permissive* will, is that _none _*_should_*_ perish, but that ALL _*_should_*_ come to repentance._ But, He has sets up a pattern for them to *come to* repentance.
Making that pattern placed upon them to be His Perfect Will.
Outside of that, would fall under His permissive will.
God, Being Sovereign, does what He wills with His *bought* subjects.
Yet His Foreknowledge, understands their final outcome, but grants Grace to the vessels of dishonor, a period of time in which to repent, thereby preventing them from having an excuse when their day of judgement is come unto them. (Psa. 1:5)
Their decisive action, is what brings them into their own judgement, not because God predestinated them to that destruction.
To try to blame God, for our own unwillingness to submit to His Will is what determines our destiny.
So, _"Let God be True, and _*_every_*_ man a liar."_
How are they *liar's* they take God's Word (Will) and make it mean something that It was not meant to be.
To me, this is a bit too much determinism and I can not quite reconsile myself with this view!
Help me with this Past John.....so God made (ordained) the crucifixion of Jesus happen...for the atonement of all the other sins He made happen (ordained)....?????, No sir....Is it not blasphemy to blame God (who hates sin) for sin? The Father who looked away from the Son because of the sin on Him???
I agree, Pastor Brett, both Arminianism and Calvinism in their extreme forms are unbiblical in my view. If we emphasize man's autonomous free will we end in error. No one is saved because they chose to be saved, but because God chose to save them. And the foreknowledge spoken of in Romans 8 is personal foreknowledge, not factual knowledge. Obviously He knows everything, but God foreknows the elect personally. However taken to the extreme we also end in error with the assumption that we fully grasp the mystery of God's will and purpose and that God willed sin into existence. We lose our perspective of God's absolute and infinite holiness.But God must give us the will to believe. The new birth is like the experience of Lazarus who died and whose body was in a state of decay, and yet Jesus spoke life into a rotten corpse and resurrected him to life. So it is in the regeneration of a sinner dead in trespasses and sins.
You say, "no one is saved because they chose to be saved, but because God chose to save them."
I agree to a point. God says that he loved us first. That while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Why did Christ die? To demonstrate his love towards us. Correct? Did he not say that there is no greater love than a man lay his life down for his friend.
So yes God did chose to save. But men do chose. Do they not?
Did not Christ say to the theif, because of YOUR BELIEF, this day shall you be with me in paradise. Additionally, I did not read where Jesus forced the woman at the well to drink.
What I am saying is that I think folks need to be careful using terms like elect and predestination in regards to salvation. It is easily construed into compulsory salvation instead of God's foreknowledge about ones salvation. There is a huge difference. I am certain scripture say that it is God's will that ALL should come to the knowledge of the truth. And it seems to me that if the rich man went to hell, God's will won't always be done. And, I am very certain, scripturally speaking, God didn't elect the rich man to hell or it makes scripture contrary.
Also, did you say that God willed sin into existence? I was kind of confused with that part of your statement.
Who the fuck authorized your ass to speak for god? any of you?
because you are in direct contradiction of Yeshua's words. yep, that's right; "the kingdom of god is within you' ' those that are blind can see, and those that can see are blind'... a fitting choice for those of you who purport to 'understand' and 'know' ...
1974jrod No, brother, my point was that hardshell 5 point calvinism leads people to the conclusion that God created evil. He.of course did not.
Charlie Hutch Jesus died for you and wants to save you! The Bible declares that no profane person such as yourself will ever enter the kingdom! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved before it is too late!
Phillip Bassman Yes, I don't remember specifically what we were talking about, but yes I agree. 5 point is very dangerous. It is on par with Islam in that God is the creator of evil instead of the creator of free will. I can't help how I feel, and when I realized that 5 point teaches that God in fact did predestinate some to eternal hell because he got glory from this, that's when I got as angry about "religion" as I ever had in my life. 5 point makes Jesus the father of lies instead of resting upon Satan where it belongs, and as Christ told us it belongs.
This pastor is full of .... contradiction. God is in control of everything. That means he is capable of making everything the way he wants them to be. That's including the ability to allow human to have free will, choose to go astray, become sinful and then to be saved by the savior. Will there be Christ if human chose not to disobey God? Yes, he is God.
I had a thought, and it may be wrong, for--though I can claim some intelligence according to man's standards--I am an idiot when it comes to understanding God. My thought was that ALL good comes from God and that God allows evil but does not author it. Its shape, form, and extent are determined by God through His good and all-knowing influence on the universe surrounding the evil. If I am wrong in this don't fail to correct me and quote some scripture to me. It is easy for me to be wrong.
“To argue that God is “trying His best” to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent.” A W Pink
rahul shinde what about when Jesus says to the Jews
how long I have wanted to gather you under my wings like a hen but you were not willing
or the old testament scripture I lay before you life and death blessings and curses now choose life so that you may live
or ezikial 18 do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked
now choose life so that you may live why oh why will you die Israel
Jordan Belcher in those passages, God is speaking to a limited humans (like us) who are bound by time who is dead in sin but his word is being preached! Just as it is being done now, God's Word proclaims his desire for you to knock, seek and find, lean not on your own understanding, do not be wise in your own eyes, repent! All these are ways God is showing what he wants of us so thay we may conform to his will. But in God's perspective, as the Word proclaims, we were predestined before the creation of the world.
So you say God is lying: He does indeed take pleasure in the death of the wicked, and he didn't *really* want to gather the Jews under his wings.
Also I wouldn't say God is "trying is best". God is not an optimization algorithm. He desires everyone to be saved, but prefers to instill faith by more subtle methods than having angels heralding the Gospel everywhere or whatever other means one may imagine as "trying his best". Not that this would work. The only reliable way he could save everyone was puppet master level control. I think you know why it is assumed he doesn't want that. And he certainly doesn't owe it to us to "try his best". He is still just and loving and his wish (not plan!) to save everyone is honest.
Mr. Pink should explain why the ability to make a moral choice implies omnipotence.
Well then your whole belief system is wrong, because the bible clearly teaches that it's God's will for all to be saved. But it also teaches that only few will be saved. So yeah, you have a problem.
1 Timothy 2:3,4: This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth
Just because God predetermined the death of his son which resulted in the redemption of creation it doesn't follow that all events e.g. Syrians being tortured and killed by Isis are ordained by God. The quote from proverbs seems very weak because (1) a dice is not the most random thing one could think of and (2) it probably refers to numbers 26 and the stones of the ephod which were used to determine YHWHs will. God explicitly ordained these as a means to determine his will. It doesn't follow that God determines the fall of every dice in lasvegas!!!!
+Stephen Glasse exactly Stephen.... Ezekiel 18:23. They have no explanation for that-but people who are Calvinists are literally addicted to their "chosen" status, and are not spiritually capable of understanding because they do not know or serve the same God we do- they serve their god of "Theology"....
So, where does the bible say it was God who made them into vessels of wrath? Paul uses the passive voice in Romans 9 to describe them.
So God predetermined the sex trafficking, predestined those in it to fall into those sins against their wills and then sends them to a horoffic eternal torment for doing that!!! This God is an absolute monster!!! Luckily it is not the god of scripture but of John Calvin/Augustine. And you thought these pastors followed Jesus....
just because God knows your choice doesn't mean you can't still make it.
Amen!
No one has argued otherwise. But, since God infallibly and exhaustively knows what will occur...you will make that choice, and you can not have chosen otherwise
gregory callaway there are infinite factors to influence your choices so it's not your fault if you take bad decisions due to your ignorance and the fact that you're not perfect
From our pov we can still choose, but from God's, there is no choice.
Exactly. Well said. That, the freedom for man to choose right and wrong, is actually where the REAL "mystery" of God's sovereignty resides.
Right, you're headed in the right direction. We can never fully understand God but only with what He has revealed to us through His word. In the bible we find the sovereignty of God. I thank that my salvation doesn't rest in the fact that "I chose it", but rather that God has chosen me.
God chooses anyone whose repents. The Bible is very clear
@@rocketsurgeon1746 Imagine 9 years later dudes an atheist 😂. Point is no one could know they were "chosen" if they were "chosen".
Saying god predestined sin is blasphemy
You fool you are saying god did not plan the history of the universe ? So he did what ? Create it and let it roll out the way it does and see later what comes out of it ? Of course god did plan everything in advance cause he is all knowing and all powerfull and an all powerfull and all knowing god does not let the universe do whatever it does without planning it to do according to his will.
@@2BLO97 no. God hasnt predestined. God is all knowing (islam), therefor God knows the future. God has "written down" not what you will, but God has "written down" what are are going to do. Will and are going to are different. Will means God has predestined (you are gonna do what god said) , are going to means ( God has said what you are going to do) he just knows it beacuse well he is all knowing. He has only predicted not predestined. If God had predestined everything it wouldnt be a mistake of a child who will grow up n commit sin, beacause well, God had predestined it, therefor ppl wouldny take responsibility. So God has given us freewill. God has given us freewill so we will take responsibility for our actions. Therfor if we have freewill it means that God hasnt predestined it. This comes back to the conclusion that God has only predicted (what you are going to do) not predestined ( what you will do beacause he wants you to).
Calvinism. When you must butcher scripture calvinism is here for you.
Biblical events requiring sovereign intention for evil works in a good purpose can not necessarily be extrapolated to everything
What do you mean? all things mean all things
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Ephesians 1:11 ESV
bible.com/bible/59/eph.1.11.ESV
Your definition of evil is objectively wrong then. Sin and evil are whatever that is contrary to God's nature, God's definition of these terms is the objective truth. Think of God's morality as a perfect object to be imitated, you use it as the standard or the ruler to measure your imitation, not otherwise
Do you treat other people's children as well as you treat your own? No. You don't mistreat them but you don't love them in the same way that you love and correct your own. Some people are God's children and some people are the devil's children. Jesus made this very clear as the gospel of St. John tells it. Jesus told a group of people who mocked him that they couldn't hear his words, they couldn't believe him. He knew that they weren't deaf, so why did he tell them they couldn't hear him? Because they were not God's children, but instead, they were children of the devil. He went on to say that if they were God's children they would hear him. So if there were two groups of people then, there have always been two groups of people. When you understand this very basic principle that we are not all alike no matter what the world tells us, it can begin to help you make sense of it all. The next time you hear someone say that all people are God's children, you should know that they are contradicting what Jesus taught. You either believe Jesus or you don't.
"Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to *become* children of God".
You seem to assume some people as babies are already better persons than the rest. No. We're all born depraved sinners. We need to be born again to become God's children. Before that, we aren't.
No one can come to Jesus unless the Father who sent Him draws him.
All whom the Father draws will come to Jesus, and Jesus will not turn away any who come to Him.
Of those whom the Father gives the Son, the Son will lose none, but will raise them up at the last day.
Then we have 0 accountability, 0 reward in Glory & 0 reason to share the Gospel with others.
"God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all" 1 John 1:5 My God did NOT predetermine sin.
Your god is different than my god ha ha
@john disalvo "Therefore [God] has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens" (Romans 9:18). Explain the obvious meaning of that verse away with your Arminian theology!
@@lightisgreaterthandarkness Obviously you have never read any Calvinist writings! Calvinism does not teach that God is the author of sin but He is sovereign over sin! Nothing can happen unless God sovereignly wills it, even the sinful acts of human beings. Otherwise, we are left with a limited deistic "god" and not the supreme "God" described in Scripture!
Jude 4 even says that apostates are "foreordained" or "marked out for this condemnation."
Yes he did. He created evil.
Stephanie Sykes-Davis You’re a deluded woman, drunk on calvinism
2790 Comments. I would say people are still really interested in this. Thanks for the vid.
Is a gross extrapolation to say that because God ordained the death of His Son therefore He ordains all sin!
Did God know that Adam and Eve would fall? Yes He did. So why does He place them in a garden with the tree that can bring about death? I think you are missing the entire point here. God knew that you were gonna sin and those who will go to Hell, God knew about, and STILL God allowed us all to be born. He could have stopped all sin before it ever happened, but He created a tree that could cause Eve to sin, and thus all of mankind with her. God knew, and yet STILL did not stop it. Now, why would God do that? Could it be that God has purpose on sin? Could it be that God is glorified in the punishment of wickedness?
@@EdgeOfEntropy17 Ezekiel 33:11 does say that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. So why would he predetermine who would reject him and die in their sins?
Michael Bain I surmise that God is glorified and honored in the exercise of bringing His perfect judgement against those He’s bound over to sin. This does not mean that He enjoys or finds pleasure in the vanquishing of those He created in His image and blessed. The esteem of God may be present when the painful justice of God is exhibited.
@@michaelbain399 Anytime we ask the question, "why" in relation to "why" God does things, we have only the Scripture to teach us. We cannot stand in the place of the Almighty and say "This is why God does that" because we are finite beings with very limited knowledge of God's overarching plan. The fact is, God find no pleasure in the death of the wicked because God is love and God is merciful. But that does not negate His judgment, for sin is an offense to Him, and He would be unjust in allowing wickedness to continue without judgement. Just as He is love, He is also just, and only God knows "why" He does anything at all, save for the glimpses he reveals to us in His word.
God bless.
Don't blame him too much. Piper's tok old... and old age makes you a bit Stupid.
God has only himself to blame then?
This scrambles my brain.. the more I try to make sense of such things the more elusive it gets...
Same here dude sometimes I feel crazy trying to figure out how God works😅 I’m just gonna have faith and let God do the work.
“These things have driven people mad”
Same here... seems like no clear answer anywhere
@@muhammadamjad2614
hopefully you're not learning about allah here cause if you are.
My duuude, Allah works in a very different way.
@@Yuno08888 And what that way is? can you explain My duuude
God is in the heavens and He does all that He pleases
Did God cause Satan to rebel against Him?
Did God make Adam eat of the forbidden fruit?
Did God make Cain kill his brother?
If God is the author of sin, why does He compel men to "repent"?
Foreknowledge of men making certain choices, does not make God the author of those choices.
@@SpotterVideo yes he does everything
@@Android-ds9ie It pleases God that man chooses to believe the Gospel .
Really
God stands for greatest omnipresent dimensionless
"choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve." I have a choice. I am not a bio-puppet. I am made in the image of God. God is not cruel and does not create beings that have no chance to escape damnation.
Remember Jesus himself said he was the friend of sinners.
"The choice" in that verse is between two different false gods.
Joshua 24:15 ESV - And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell.
@@AChristian316 Still a choice
@@scottleary8468
Can we choose NOT to sin?
@@scottleary8468 But do I have a choice in the matter of weather I lie or telling the truth. Can an unsaved person choose to do right? Not living a holy Life, but to do right. Can he choose to tell the truth. Can he choose not to rob a bank? Can he choose not to beat his wife and kids? And if so, how can he choose since God ordained Him for hell?
And do we have a choice to do wrong? Or is it just Adam's sin?
why would i believe in the God that not only allows but orchestrates evil ?
Glory to God, awesome, no wonder we are told to fear God.
If everything is predetermined, doesnt that prove that free will is just an illusion? That directly contradicts christian belief.
Then what was the point of it all? Agree that is strange
It does. Trust me don't be a calvinist lol
Free will is the ability to choose something freely, the ability to want to do something. It’s not the ability to act on your own without God. That’s important to understand
God is omniscient and omnipotent and of course that means that everything that is happening in this world is caused by him, he wills and does everything, otherwise he wouldn’t be God. So yes, according to the Bible everything is pure fate and predetermined.
If you say, that this kind of predetermined world doesn’t make sense, then you don’t understand what it means to be a creator and what it means to be its creation.
It automatically means it’s only important what God wants, not what his creation wants. As a creator you can wreck your creation or not like I destroy the gift wrap and get rid of it but keep the present. It’s not important what the gift wrap wants, it’s important what I who just wants to keep the present wants.
When I complain that everything is predestined and God does what he wants, it's like my gift wrap complaining about why I do what I want.
Also, Saying people could choose to sin is very stupid. It’s funny because that thought denies God. Only God is holy, only he can give you the ability not to sin. People who are like
Yeah, but Satan chose to sin that’s why God will punish him with hell is so weird. In the beginning every living being God created didn’t sin at all by his protection.
Now you want to tell me there is some kind of creation of God like an angel who is like
„No God, I don’t care about your protection. I will sin now“ hahahah what’s that being who can do that. That would mean that today everyone in heaven could do the same thing the devil did in heaven. No difference.
Revelation 17,17
Philippians 2,13
Romans 9,19
Not really bible never hints free will
@@Key-ps2iy so i can’t blame the wrapping paper for going to hell if I do whatever I want with it just because I want to. Sure, it’ll go to hell, but in that case, I can’t blame it
Listen, to all the naysayers let me ask you something; What exactly does it mean to be God? Think about what it means to actually be the creator. People who say that they don’t like the idea of God having predestined every single aspect of life are actually saying that they do not desire a God who is in complete control which is another way of saying “I desire to suppress who God is/or I hate God”. Either God is omnipotent and omniscient or he’s not God, there is no in-between. Secondly, if you truly understand Grace, having a God that is not in complete control is absolutely terrifying and leaves much doubt to our very own salvation. This erroneous view of God is derived from Men making God out to be small, somewhat equal to themselves.
God Is powerful enough to create agents with self determining movements of the will. Omniscience doesn't require a decree for knowledge. Knowing is not determining. Calvinism does not allow even Christ to have free human will. Monoenergism and Monotheletism are old and condemned heresies.
+CanadianOrth wrong, repent!
+Keith Thompson Keith, hand waving will not correct Calvinism's defective Christology. This shows up often, like MacArthur insisting for decades that the Son is not eternally generated. And go ask Sproul why it is that he refuses to admit that God died on a cross.
And why is it that Piper insists that evil is necessary....even for God, and that the full effulgence of his glory requires someone to mete out wrath upon. Tell the Holy Trinity that creation and evil are necessary amid the most pure loving communion and perichoresis of the divine Persons, having need of nothing.
Repent
+Keith Thompson I repented by forsaking Reformed Christology, which confuses Person and Nature and ends up Nestorianizing. Even the Lutherans have rightly charged you with this for centuries.
Every one of these comments was predetermined to be posted here no lie
Calvinism is self contradictory. “You have to make a choice...” “Everything was predestined...”
Our human minds cannot comprehend it but it is true. It seems like contradiction but somehow there is a harmony between mans free will and Gods Sovereignty over the whole Universe.
It's simple we have laws in the constitution (predetermined?) , we know exactly what will follow if we break them(fate) but most still don't give a damn and breaks them anyways (choice). So de we blame the law makers, the law breakers or the choice they made?
Here is absolute proof that God does not predetermine and cause everything to happen that happens; In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
“Absolute” proof lol
?? if it says it in the Bible then that's proof enough
I'm shocked that all these comments seem to be saying Piper is wrong. He is actually correct. Have you not read the Bible? Paul, himself, repeatedly told the Jews (and others) that their sin of killing Christ was pre-ordained by God. Those of you who disagree with Piper here are arguing against Scripture. Is it hard to grasp? Sure. Does it seem somewhat cruel? Sure. But this is undeniably what Scripture says.
Johann Wilder So, God is cruel, but deal with it, because that's what this man thinks scripture is saying? This kind of interpretation does not point to Jesus Christ. Think on this a while: "39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life."
Johann Wilder amen. protestants idolising the bible
No those sins weren't pre ordained by God just because He knew they were going to happen.
Wrong. Corinthians 2:8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; That is where Lucifer wanted to put the unseen Father God. That is why Jesus was crucified.
god never created sins, the old tstament says clearly we die and have flesh because satan and his demons and our choice to follow him since the beggining... so, no, god didnt crated sins ... and god cant kill satan neither, because demons and angelsare astral body (spirit) so they cant be killed even by god, they have been created to last for ever (that's why he casted out lucifer, because lucifer has no flesh and that's why during exorcism you cast out demons and do not kill them because they are spirit not flesh... god wouldnt have sent his son dying on the cross if he coul just kill satan...
Calvinists say God is good, but then they say He predetermines EVERY act that occurs, and man has no freewill whatsoever. So, by their own doctrine, they assert that God is the author of evil.
Norse god worship has been overthrown. The One true God who made heaven and earth who shall have no other gods before him has revealed himself in history through the prophets, in great signs and in sending his Son Jesus Christ who was raised from the dead in accordance with the oracles of the Holy Prophets. This is the God who said his dominion will be over all the earth. His reign shall not end and he will show all the gods of the nations to be false. He has done so, and after singularity comes, Jesus will return. God's glory will be known everywhere and the gods of the nations will be but a sad memory in history.
This fact that God knows our sins even before we were formed in the womb makes me realize how much he really loves me that he would still want to create me knowing about my dirty sin. He sent his son to die for our sins that we can be made righteous in his suffering. God's gift of free will is so amazing that nobody on earth will be able to comprehend until we get to heaven. THANK YOU JESUS
Ok but why not make you without sin?
@@kaitlyn-gracesmith7923 lol Do you not know the story? Through the first man and women sin entered the world by the choice they made to disobey God, Sin was then inherited by every man and women from there, Jesus came and obeyed every command and did not sin, He shed his blood as a substitute for our sin, So by his blood God no longer sees us as sinners but we recieve the rightousness of jesus, God in the flesh, His begotten son, His living word, He rose three days later so that by faith we will be forgiven and rise to, Now the interesting part is, He mentions "Just as by one man (adam) ALL were made sinners Now By One mans Rightousness (perfection) All are made Perfect/rightous, Jesus healed the wound opened by adam and eve, Faith in him causes us to recieve HIS perfection, It is the GIFT of God, not of anything you can do but what God did for you, the commandments were a teacher to show us we are IMPERFECT and NEED to be saved, Jesus FULFILLED the entire law, he was not born a sinner, he was perfect completly and being God he was able to fully save forever those who call on his name.
So I can't choose? Great! Then I am not morally accountable...
Calvinism is asinine.
Calvinism is an apologetics disaster.
"That's a problem, yes, but..." Indeed it is a problem. If you believe God truly micromanages every event in the universe, especially every thought, word, and deed of every human being, then you truly do have a problem, an enormous, inescapable and unresolvable problem. You must conclude that every sin committed by every human being was actually forced upon each person by God Himself, as a puppet master controls the actions of his puppet. This leads to three inescapable conclusions: 1) Human beings are not responsible for their sins, since they have no choice in the matter and 2) God is the perpetrator of every sin that has ever been committed and 3) Redemption is irrelevant and the Cross has no meaning.
No wonder people have been driven crazy by this doctrine. It's a crazy and irrational doctrine. The two solutions to this dilemma are either to conclude that this doctrine of extreme sovereignty of God is not correct or that the Bible is untrue and unreliable because it states that each person is responsible for his or her own sins and that there is no unrighteousness in God and that it is impossible for God to sin.
For me the solution is simple. I do not see that this doctrine is truly taught in the Bible. The verse in Proverbs is only one verse, John Piper either misquotes it or is quoting an erroneous translation. It does not say what he claims it does.
But, there are sufficient scriptures to show that God ordains sin
JOHN MAINA
Really? Could you please give those references? And, please, also explain how such references prove your point. Such an idea contradicts basic principles of scripture.
I agree. I been struggling with this doctrine, and it has made me think of things that make me insane.
*****
The doctrine is erroneous. The true doctrines of God do not cause people to go insane. John Piper and all who teach this doctrine are teaching false doctrine.
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a SOUND MIND. (2Ti 1:7)
He chose his 12 disciples, even Judas, knowing he would fulfill prophecy by betraying him.
This is reassuring. It makes me feel better that after the many mistakes that I've made in my life, they were still in God's plans. For my betterment in the long run. After a lot of trials and tribulations and suffering, I realized that God merely allowed me to go through them for a lighter path. This woman left me and I was heartbroken, but He knew she wasn't good for me. It wouldn't have ended well. He looks out for his children every step of the way. Even if it doesn't seem like it.
Jeremy Greenidge
Does it make you feel better that god uses certain people to rape little children?
I was going to say that god uses wicked perverts to rape children, but they didn’t really have any choice in the matter either, so they’re more or less victims in all of this as well.
@@evanu6579 everyone is a victim even Satan
@@LaughwithMAZ it absolutely is! Trust God on this!! He knows better❤Don’t lean on your own understanding, it will get you in trouble for decades or forever
this so called god is a menace to human beings and animals as well, people should not be selfish, just because a certain thing goes your way, look at all the misery in the world, especially concerning innocent children ,his so called plan if it ever existed stinks to high heaven
@@LaughwithMAZ you should have better things to worry about ,were not all Brad Pitt ,and it probably happened to him as well at some point ,were all on our own ,believing in a god is a waste of time
Dear calvinists! Have you ever tried to live consistent with Piper's view on God's sovereignty? I lived for one month and a half. It was the most terrible time of my life. I was struggling with ups and downs and asking myself why God didn't choose me? Why should I pray for my brother who is not saved if God didn't choose him? I was a student at theology preparing to go into ministry. Why should I preach the Gospel of everything is predetermined? Thank God He saved me from that thinking.
So what's your point?
You are elected if you believe and have real faith. The difference is that you believe its your doing or you made the decision to be saved.
The bible says that brfore the universe was made he chose us. Even if you believe it was all your doing how do you know it wasn't all predetermined? You don't know...
After All no one comes to Christ unless the farther draws them. If God who holds the visible and invisible in place draws someone then I'm pretty sure they come.
You tried for a month and a half living like a calvinist?
So what your saying is that you couldn't just let go of pride?
You have to be in control? You have to save your family members. You you you you You?
I choose to except the fact that God is in control of everything and if one is saved they will at some point receive the gosple from someone because it's just what supposed to happen.
@@eagleclan75 your god is an asshole
@@eagleclan75 where does it say that you were chosen to be saved before the universe was formed ?
Where does it say in the bible that the father draws people after the cross ?
The exact same thing happened to me.
Makes God the author of sin. That's a contradiction of Scripture, and the very character of God.
Mike Holloway,brother,
GOD is the author of ‘Choice’ , The choice to obey is righteousness and the choice not to obey is sin
HE is the all Just GOD, who believes in not forcing HIMself on us but giving us a free will to embrace HIM who is Everlasting Life, peace, Joy etc or choose otherwise which everlasting death, darkness, depression etc
Thank you for your admonition to not follow my heart. This is very good advice and I try to remind myself always in light of Jer.17:9 that I cannot trust my heart. I trust only what the word of God reveals to be true about it.
I love this humble man of God💓💓💓🙌
Nomfundo Masuku
He preaches a satanic doctrine. He makes God out to be ore evil than Satan. Actually he makes Satan out to be a victim of God’s.
In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
I love the fact that though God is sovereign we are responsible. I wouldn't want to pray to God if He didn't control everything and everyone. I love you Jesus only because you first loved me.
So, you are telling me, that God controlled that person to rape those kids? He controlled that person ti be trans, and to shoot up that Christian school, killing three adults, and three kids? You are telling me that God controlled that person to be prideful, and to lust after that other person, even though scripture tells us, that pride and lust comes from the world? God is in control, byt he doesn't control everything.
Calvinism is confusing. Can one choose to believe in Jesus? Apparently not, as God pre-destined only the elect to do so, and pre-destined the rest to be lost. But I find it difficult to understand how there is meaning for us in this view. It's a puppet show with God as puppeteer. And a puppet show can have meaning...but not for the puppets. God creates Adam and pre-destines him to commit the Original Sin, which then all subsequent creation must be punished for, even though the only meaningful choice was God's? If I have to drive long distance at another person's request to give that other person something he is due, and that person intentionally gives me directions that lead me to the wrong place, why am I to blame for missing the meeting? Should that other person have the right to punish me?
You have the core of calvanism wrong, it is by grace that some are chosen, but that doesn’t mean the rest are predestined to be lost, everyone born into this world already is lost, so in a sense we owe God nothing and are already born in sin and death, calvanism also relies on the fact that, the natural man is so lost in his sins and has no natural desire to pursue God, he only has what’s interest to himself so therefore for a man to “willingly and naturally” come to God there has to be a part on Gods end in which he draws the said person out of their sins, otherwise he would never be able to or even have to desire to come.
God's sovereignty is one of His most interesting and amazing attributes!
God does not need to control everything to be sovereign
@@explodingrubberducky797 But isn't it not the meaning of sovereignty?
@@002kenken Sovereignty is the right to rule. It is a declaration of Kingship. 'God knows the end from the beginning' is not the same as saying God determines every step in between.
@@002kenkenno it's not the meaning, sovereignty means God chooses however he wants to rule, NOT as the calvinist defines it, only in calvinism is Sovereignty described as total determinism, NO WHERE ELSE would that be defined as sovereignty. Redefining everything, that what the calvinist must do to holding to their precious doctrines that they have elevated over the Word of God
@@bstein9500what about Ephesians 1:11 (for example): God “works all things according to the counsel of His will”
How great is our GOD...❣❣❣
Not great at all
@@DashieNCheekie Infinitely great!
lol, blasphemy. you get that whole doctrine from a verse in proverbs...
God does not tempt...
I had no idea piper was so low in theology. this video contradict sooooo much of the Bible.
if pipers right, then God punishes us for His Sin. punished Israel, sent judges to stop Israel doing bad even though God wanted them to do bad. so in your view, God is schizophrenic. he makes us do stuff then punishes us for it. Jesus cries at Jerusalem, cuz they wouldn't turn from their sin, but he was the one making them sin. so in your opinion, Jesus was crying over something he did. Piper, do you believe God regrets his 'decisions'?
The part with Jesus crying for Jerusalem is bull's eye. I can't believe people misinterpret the Bible to such extend that they believe in Calvinism. The whole theory is pure madness.
His teaching is based on John Calvin's theology not the Bible.
Wrong. He gives scripture to back up his position. Did you not even listen to him?
Wow, so much of this is just so wrong… it’ll be hard, but I’ll try to limit the scope of my reply to the original question: the idea of besetting sins.
So, I’ll start my response with a confession: Lust and pride are both long-term besetting sins for me personally, and honestly, having run in various Christian circles for many years, I’m quite sure I’m not alone. Here’s what the apostle John says about whether God causes either of these commonly-besetting sins: “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.” (I Jn 2)
Look carefully: Not from the Father.
James is pretty clear in this regard too. When we experience temptation (and who doesn’t?), we can be confident that God has not determined this because “He Himself does not tempt anyone.” On the other hand, when I’m tempted, that’s on me--”each one is carried away by HIS OWN lust” (my emphasis--see Jas 1).
Both texts are straightforward, both speak directly to the topic of besetting sins, and both falsify the strict determinism that folks like Piper advocate. Finally, just to close the loop, I’ll point out that the proverbs don’t speak at all to the issue of dust.
If Piper and his disciples had a better understanding of the fact that God is not the cause of sin and evil, it would bring him the added benefit of not having to counsel his people who have been “driven mad” by his own bad theology (from the 4 min mark in the video), or twist himself into a pretzel by trying to argue that sin and evil somehow glorify God.
On a personal level, Piper seems like a genuinely nice and sincere person, but it’s possible to be both of those things and still be desperately misguided. Finally, if lot-casting is still even relevant in a new testament economy, when I cast mine, it’s going to be with James and John (the apostle, that is)--not Mr. Piper.
Thanks for listening.
Few things to reflect on:
The defense of "free will" hinges on the argument that man is born into this world "neutral" - having the "autonomy", to choose for himself, apart from either influences of God or the devil, to either do good or bad... Is this Biblical?
A white lie and a murder, both are of equal gravity in God's court - and so is the sin that fuels disobedience, questions divine authority - the sin of Pride. So When God says He is Sovereign, what does He really mean by that? Do we say "Amen" to that or do we get offended by it, or simply say, "it depends"? Does His authority cover all things or does His jurisdiction end where man's "free will" begins? Is He the Ordainer of things or is He, just like man, "beholden" to what He, as many of us conveniently refer to it, "foresaw in advance"? And since He has surrendered to man the outcome of his own free will, can man "actually" derail God's agenda?
Lastly, when Jesus died on the cross and uttered the words, "It is finished", did He actually finished the work of salvation or just made man "savable"? Does a slave (in bondage to sin) have the freedom to determine his fate? Is a dead person able to make himself hear, see, understand and receive the gospel, without the awakening of the Holy Spirit? And is a dead person, made alive in Christ, choose to remain dead afterwards? Is Christ's saving grace not powerful enough to snatch and keep him out of the grave?
May the Holy Spirit illumine our hearts and minds as we ponder on these questions and may He help us see the glory of the Father and the Son beyond the horror of the Cross!
God bless!
Thank you for your thoughts, sir.
All the world’s a stage, and all the
men and women merely two-bit players; stumbling through their assigned roles,
the elect, the un-elect, the good, the bad, the ugly, mere mindless robots,
mere mindless puppets with the Calvinist god as master puppeteer, mere mindless
muppets with the Calvinist god engineering the freak show inside a swirling
morass of garbage in an ocean of sewage performing 7 billion simultaneous
roles, as HIMSELF!
And in the demented mind of the
Calvinist cultist the Calvinist god wrote/arranged/produced and STARS IN all of
this for glory, the Calvinist gods glory and the Calvinist gods sadistic
pleasure!
And you wonder why we think and know Calvinists are stark raving mad nutters!!!
BE --- Did you watch the first 14 seconds of this video?
"A white lie and a murder, both are of equal gravity in God's court"? No, they are not. Ever hear of venial sin and mortal sin?
I find the Calvinist conception of "sovereignty" quite strange. Who is more sovereign: A) Someone who has to predetermine everything, lest he would not be considered sovereign if the slightest thing occurs apart from his orders, or B) Someone who brings to pass whatever he wants, even though others are trying to work against him? To me, its clearly B, even if I don't factor in that A is blasphemous.
“Whosoever” disproves Calvinism
ALL we who know God is love, know from 1 John 1:5, that "in him is no darkness whatsoever"; and we furthermore know, from 1 John 1:26 that "All that is in the world, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."
God foreknew his blessings for those, in him, would be blessed with the same blessings he chose for those he foreknew - Israel would be his people (Jacob's people), as well as whosoever believes in him, through their belief in Jesus Christ, the firstborn unto Salvation, whose co heirs, are all who believe in him, "whosoever" as John 3:16 states, without one "but" added to it, but what is stated in it "but have eternal life."
Calvinists have confused foreknowledge with authorship, and this argument just proved that God is light, in him is no darkness whatsoever, man is responsible for his sins, and thank God for Jesus Christ, in that, through him alone we can have eternal life - "WHOSOEVER" believes in him.
Paul, in Galatians chapter 5, argues over Peter's blindsightedness of the circumcised and uncircumcised by stating "I wish they were cut off," (Galatians 5:12 - meaning - those agitators would both be excommunicated as well as, disemboweling themselves), and with such colorful arguments, audacity, and sense of finality, he demonstrated truly, God's hatred of SELF-righteousness, versus his love, shown in his mercy towards sinners turning towards him, whose reward is Salvation, sealed the Moment they believe in he who forgives the sins of the entire world, as clearly shown in Ephesians 1:13-14, which illustrates the role played by the Holy Spirit, sealing the promise and blessings of eternal life, for whosoever believes.
Salvation is a gift of God, whose love cannot be removed, as Paul stated in Romans 8:38-39, and is for ALL who believe in him, Jew and Gentile alike.
God, help Calvinists of all shades and colors see through and beyond their filter; and instead, use the lens of the Holy Spirit, who shall remind them of everything Jesus said through his Word, instead of leaning unto John Calvin's understandings, stemming from his incorrect assessment, as he argued "we are doomed from the womb."
No, we are not; "whosoever believes" proves otherwise...
@ Jeff Lardizabal God help your Arminian arrogance! The word "whosoever" is in the KJV, not in the original Greek!
Yeah um, "whosoever" is not in the greek
@@lachyjames1528 Plus, Calvinists do not believe that God is the author of sin but He is sovereign over sin. God permits it and limits it and exercises power over it. God doesn't cause sin (a holy God cannot do so), but He does preordain it. Jude tells us that the false teachers of his time were "foreordained to this condemnation" (Jude 4). God isn't the author of sin, but He is sovereign over it. God is sovereign over everything (Ephesians 1:11). God exercises a very meticulous providence!
Calvinism wants to assert that God arbitrarily predestines some few to Heaven and the majority to hell. BUT the Bible clearly teaches God's predestination is based on His FOREKNOWLEDGE.
Nothing is random although we perceive our lives to be random it is not, thank God life isn't meaningless!
Please hope no one like this ever comes to comfort you after a horrific tragedy. Just know God is there comforting you.
No, for me it's just the opposite. Think about it this way... If God does orchestrate everything including the tragedies, that means He is in them with us and there's a reason that he orchestrated those tragedies even though we don't understand why or why me. Better that than a God who stands off to the sidelines wringing his hands because he's left things to chance or because he's not behaving as a sovereign in control of everything. If God is in everything then there's a reason and utility for it for us or others even though we often don't understand the why of it or even like it. But if God isn't in control of it then that means that we can't count on Him for anything really and what happened was not done to us with any particular purpose or reason in mind.
This is silly, I'm going to bed.
Good night.
Nope.
That’s total control and knowing that lifts the spirit. Because if you leave it up to us to have total control with our ego in charge may God help us all.
Now that makes me think about the passages in the Old Testament when God says "I will harden his heart". I never really realised what it meant.
Just remember the verses before that say Pharaoh hardened his own heart. At a certain point, God began hardening as a judgment for Pharaoh first hardening it himself.
@@trebmasterwrong.
Calvinism is utterly guilty of making God the author of sin and evil. Calvinism is the epitome of Satanic evil. Check out what the following Calvinist apologists had to say regarding sin and evil:
1) Loraine Boettner - "Even the fall of Adam, and through him the fall of the race, was not by chance or accident, but was so ordained in the secret counsels of God" - In his book, "The Reformed doctrine of Predestination, page 234
2) Jerom Sanchius - "Surely, if God had not willed the fall, He could, and no doubt would, have prevented it; but He did not prevent it: ergo, He willed it. And if He willed it, He certainly decreed it." - In his book, "The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination" page 88.
3) A.W. Pink - "Plainly it was God's will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens save as God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a bare permission, for God only permits that which He has purposed." In his book, "The Sovereignty of God" page 147, (1961).
4) A.W. Pink - "Not only did His omniscient eye see Adam eating of the forbidden fruit, but He decreed beforehand that he should do so." In his book, "The Sovereignty of God" page 249
5) Edwin Palmer - "It is even Biblical to say that God has foreordained sin. If sin was outside the plan of God, then not a single important affair of life would be ruled by God." In his book, "The 5 Points of Calvinism" page 82
6) William Shedd - "Nothing comes to pass contrary to his desire. Nothing happens by chance. Even moral evil, which He abhors and forbids, occurs "by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God." In his book, "Calvinism: Pure and Mixed, page 37, 1986.
7) J. Gresham Machen - "All things including even the wicked actions of wicked men and devils -- are brought to pass in accordance with God's eternal purpose." In his book, "Christian View of Man, page 46, 1965.
8) William Shedd - "Sin is one of the "whatsoevers" that have "come to pass", all of which are "ordained". In his book, "Calvinism" Pure and Mixed, page 31, 1986.
wtom04 Isaiah 45:7
@John Venkatesh God had foreknowledge regarding Adam and Eve's sinning, but that does not mean that He foreordained or "decreed" them to sin. That would make God the author of sin and evil. Calvinism teaches that God's foreknowledge equals foreordination. That is not true.
@John Venkatesh The Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Rape of Nanking, Pearl Harbor, and the 9/11 terrorist attacks were all foreknown by God, but He never decreed that those atrocities happen. Those atrocities were the result of the innate evil and wickedness of man. Calvinist apologists argue that God is the author of sin and evil.
1) Loraine Boettner - "Even the fall of Adam, and through him the fall of the race, was not by chance or accident, but was so ordained in the secret counsels of God" - In his book, "The Reformed doctrine of Predestination, page 234
2) Jerom Sanchius - "Surely, if God had not willed the fall, He could, and no doubt would, have prevented it; but He did not prevent it: ergo, HE WILLED IT. AND IF HE WILLED IT, HE CERTAINLY DECREED IT." - In his book, "The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination" page 88.
3) A.W. Pink - "Plainly it was God's will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens save as God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a bare permission, for God only permits that which He has purposed." In his book, "The Sovereignty of God" page 147, (1961).
4) A.W. Pink - "Not only did His omniscient eye see Adam eating of the forbidden fruit, BUT HE DECREED BEFOREHAND THAT HE SHOULD DO SO." In his book, "The Sovereignty of God" page 249
5) Edwin Palmer - "IT IS EVEN BIBLICAL TO SAY THAT GOD HAS FOREORDAINED SIN. If sin was outside the plan of God, then not a single important affair of life would be ruled by God." In his book, "The 5 Points of Calvinism" page 82
6) Edwin Palmer - "All things that happen in all the world at any time and in all history-whether with inorganic matter, vegetation, animals, man, or angels (both the good and evil ones)-come to pass because God ordained them. EVEN SIN -- THE FALL OF THE DEVIL FROM HEAVEN, THE FALL OF ADAM, AND EVERY EVIL THOUGHT, WORD, AND DEED IN ALL OF HISTORY, INCLUDING THE WORST SIN OF ALL, Judas’ betrayal of Christ-is included in the eternal decree of our holy God." - page 120, Edwin Palmer - in his book, "The 5 Points of Calvinism".
7) Edwin Palmer - "SIN IS NOT ONLY FOREKNOWN BY GOD, IT IS ALSO FOREORDAINED BY GOD" - On page 122, 1980 in his book, ""The 5 Points of Calvinism".
@John Venkatesh If your beloved spouse or other close loved one got raped which permanently traumatizes them for the rest of their lives, are you going to conclude that God "foreordained" and "decreed" that atrocity to happen to your loved one?? Are you going to tell them that God did that "according to secret counsels of his will" and "according to his sovereign good pleasure"????
Ezekiel 18:23 - 23 HAVE I ANY PLEASURE AT ALL THAT THE WICKED SHOULD DIE? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Ezekiel 18:32 - 32 FOR I HAVE NO PLEASURE in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: WHEREFORE TURN YOURSELVES and live ye.
Ezekiel 33:11 - 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I HAVE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF WICKED; but that the wicked turn from his way and live:TURN YE, TURN YE from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
@John Venkatesh No, that is not an emotional argument. I provided Scripture to back up my assertion, whereas you have not provided any Scripture whatsoever, but are relying on your emotions, feelings, and philosophical presuppositions of Augustinianism/Calvinism.
So we are puppets that get judged for something that we didn’t do. God loves us so much that he sends us to hell and tortures us forever for something we aren’t responsible for. If I am understanding this correctly, this makes god a moral monster
Dear John Piper,
The dice/lot does not have a soul nor free will. Its result is naturally dependent on the physics of the throw, orchestrated and determined by God (though to man, it seems to be random).
Thus, I'm afraid, this scripture on the dice/lot isn't relevant on the discussion of free-will in the context of man.
"It does not say God turned it around for good. It actually says God intended it for good."
That's right. Remember, God intended it for good. It does NOT SAY that God decreed for Joseph's brothers to mistreat him. So remember that.
He did planned his brothers to hate on him and mistreat him, just like God gave Joseph his dreams, and place in Egypt, his time in prison and as a ruler, and his death too. And God does all of these things for each and everyone. You have no control over anything whatsoever.
Dont worry man, even before Abraham was, you are, and so i am.
The end game of all of this is to become gods, and that too is predetermined by God to happen, and there is no escaping it.
@@fredlada1634? Are u Mormon
Instead of arguing here just look at yourself and your relationship with God. Some people using such words that a godly person can't even use against a wretched sinner. Okay if Piper is wrong then who allowed you to judge him and use abusive words for him(Let only God be the judge) ?? Do you people learn it from your scripture?? Criticize your brother with abusive words, does your scripture teach you so?? One thing is clear Matthew 7:16 (You will recognize them by their fruits). Your abusive words show your fruits and your doctrine.
Some say they know Jesus Christ but they will enjoy when their brother will go to hell.
If we think we know everything about God and His word let's not waste our time abusing each other . Instead take the Gospel to those who never heard of it. Pray for those who you think are going in wrong direction. By showing your intellect here you can't please God.
Well said.
If God predestines everything, how can there be sin? Sin is missing God's will on something. If God predestines EVERYTHING there is no chance of missing His will.
How comforting... we are in HIS palm.
Or under his fist, depending on your predestination of course, so chill and wait and see
How can we make a choice about the cross if every decision is already determined by God? Calvinists are confused, and if you let them, they will confuse you also. So, are you saying that God decreed child rape? James White says yes. If God is the one who decreed all things, both good and evil, then where is culpability? There is no need for judgement, and what sense is there in preaching the gospel? God knows who will be saved, and in fact has already saved them.
I am so grateful for the neutral perspective God has given me. The Bible teaches both predestination and free will. Since both are Biblical doctrines, how do we bring the two together, forming one cohesive truth? Understanding foreknowledge and God's permissive will is key to understanding God's plan. Romans 8:29 is my starting point. The Greek proginosko can only be translated foreknow or foresee. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate..." Peter also used the same word, in the same context. 1Pet.1:2 reads: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..." God knew what we would do when the gospel was preached to us, then allowed our life to take its specific course, thus bringing us to that exact moment of choice, because he knew what we would choose. God never violates our free will to choose! If he forced us to love him, is that really love? Isn't that called rape? The Holy Spirit is the spirit of prophecy; so to deny God's foreknowledge is to deny the prophetic aspect of Scripture. We also need to consider Job. In the book of Job, we see God's permissive will in action. He allowed the devil to afflict Job. God did not do it. The devil asked for permission and God granted it, with the exception of sparing the life of Job. When the Bible ascribes evil to God, it is simply saying that God permitted evil. Every one is tempted when they are drawn away by their own lust.
The controversy is settled in one verse of Scripture. Proverbs 16:9 answered this lifelong search for me. "A man's heart (or mind) devises his way, but the Lord directs his steps." In this verse we see both free will choice and sovereign direction. God put the tree in the garden so that Adam would have a choice. While Adam made the wrong choice, God foreknew it and therefore had a backup plan.
Calvinists believe in a God that forces himself upon his subjects. John Calvin forced himself upon his subjects, and now his followers are trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us. If you are saved, you were predestined, but only because of God's foreknowledge. Don't believe the heretical lies of Calvinists. Pray for them, but don't follow them. Your testimony will be silenced. When have you ever heard a Calvinist give an altar call? Choose you this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord!
in Jesus name,
Pastor Brett
What a fantastic explanation. Thank you.
+Nimrod Thank the Lord. I am saddened that people will follow Calvinists like Piper, McArthur, White and others, without examining the Scriptures. Search the Scriptures daily, to see whether the things I say are true. Never accept anything anyone says unless you are certain that it aligns with Scripture. Blessings to you brother!
in Jesus name,
Pastor Brett
A helpful comment, though I do have a couple of comments!
1) "God never violates our free will to choose." Actually I do entirely agree with you on this, and in fact I believe God never violates anyone's free will to choose anything.
2) I think there is a flaw in your logic considering that God knows what someone will freely choose, and this may clear things up between us.
Suppose God knows that Bob will choose "A". God knows this well in advance of even creating Bob, He has seen in the future and knows with all certainty that Bob will choose "A". No doubt. So then the time rolls along, and we come to it, and now Bob is about to make the choice. What will he choose? He will choose "A"! In fact we have stated we know this with all certainty! Now our knowing this didn't effect Bob's choosing. He sat down, weighed the options, scratched his head, considered carefully, and chose "A" all by himself, a free choice. But see, if God knew He would choose "A", then there is absolutely no chance of Bob choosing anything else other than "A". Though it seemed very much a free choice to Bob, it was from eternity past already predestined with all sureness that Bob would 'freely' choose "A".
It's readily evident "A" may be replaced with choosing Jesus.
Or really anything else. Whether it was Judas choosing to betray Jesus, myself choosing to follow Jesus, or the electrons in my chair to spin around their axes, through admission of foreknowing all these things all of this was predetermined before God set the universe into motion, and there is not a chance anything could be any other way.
That doesn't force anything on us. I still have to choose every day to follow Jesus. If I don't I have sinned. From God's perspective is there any chance I would have done anything else other than sin? No, God knew from eternity past that this would come to pass. But this does not give me any excuse. My hope is in my sovereign God who ordains both the sparrow and the arrow and so I pray for the strength to keep choosing day in and day out.
+Carson Baker This was very well articulated. We actually appear to agree perfectly on this subject. I think the problem is semantics. Where some reformed thinkers would say that God decreed every event in history, before the foundation of the world; we would say that God foresaw it, foreknew it would happen, and allowed it to happen. There are still those reformed thinkers that say God made it happen. I think there is a profound difference in the use of "make", as opposed to the use of "allow". Still an issue of semantics, but one that cannot be overlooked. When explaining these in depth truths many believers, we can certainly confuse them. This is why it is important to understand the original languages. Especially with the use of proginosko in Romans 8: 29 and 1Peter1: 2. God's predestined plan is based on His foreknowledge of future events. If we are in agreement, then let us work together, expressing this truth instead of propagating the confusion of 5 point Calvinism. Let me also say that some would ostracize us for thinking this way. Prepare for opposition. This conversation is truly edifying. Thank you for taking the time to respond in such a Christ like fashion. Blessings to you brother.
+Pastor Brett Thank you for your explanation. I also believe that God's predestined plan is based on His foreknowledge of future events and Carson's analogy explained it very well. Yet there is a statement I don't understand in your initial comment: "While Adam made the wrong choice, God foreknew it and therefore had a backup plan". If God is sovereign, it's clear that His plan can never failed. Then, how could God had a backup plan?
I can’t comprehend it all, but I’ll continue to trust God.
I don't think it's correct brother.
There's different angles to this misunderstanding.
1. Faith is not a work, as Calvinists keep saying. That's opposite of what the Bible says
2. Just because God foreknows the future, does not mean it has been determined and forced by God. Freewill and foreknowledge are both possibly in coexistence, no contradiction
3. Just because God can't do morally good things does not mean man can't understand what's right or wrong. Man has the law in his heart to convict, even as a non-believer, (Roms 1). Faith does not give God a command, as Calvinists say. Faith does not rob God's glory because man willfully using his faith is exactly part of God's plan and makes relationships genuine. God wants us to choose him.
4. Various scriptures show God saying he is good to all, mercy is for all and God loves all, even love to your enemies, yes even those who hate God. It's not farfetched that God reaches out to his enemies or those that don't want God
@@izahrawr1246faith is a work. John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent
@@chan-qs9zo I seriously think that was sarcastic. The whole of the scriptures show that faith is not a work. The book of James speaks about making Faith and Works as opposites in glory and in different categories. You get saved by faith, not works. That's fairly clear
@@chan-qs9zoNot only is faith a work, but it is the work of God!
What an absurd theological observation regarding predestination. I suppose every time my cat hurls a fur ball that was predetermined from the beginning of time? How are you supposed to make that choice about the cross if God doesn't give you the capacity to make it (total depravity) regarding the sin that He predetermined that you would commit? This is nonsense. If you make that choice about the cross it's because you had the capacity from the time that you were old enough to make choices, not because God predetermined it.
If you disregard original sin and believe you are entitled to something, Piper is a Satanic false teacher.
If you understand original sin and the state of man after the fall, and believe that the only thing you are entitled to without God is hell, Piper is exactly right. Lets go to the root of the problem folks. Do you serve your own God or the God of scripture?
“None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;no one does good,
not even one." Romans 3:11-12
I agree that without God and His grace, I am hellbound. I disagree with Piper that I dont have a choice of accepting that grace. I also believe I can choose to sin or choose not to sin, and the only part God plays in that choice is His implementation of consequence that He has already designed beforehand knowing what I would choose. God does not ever take or get credit or responsibility for man's sin. When he hardened Pharoah's heart, Pharoah had already rejected Him, which illustrates clearly that God *can* and just *might* affect or influence man for His glory and purpose. God never indicates in His word, at least not that I have read, where He makes man's choice for man or mankind. That is my dilemma with anyone who follows Calvin...I follow Christ as He leads me, I read His word, as for this Calvin fellow, well I dont know him.
@@brettsumner2163 Romans 3:10-17
"God does all for his Glory, which is our Glory"
I like that !
Look to Genesis 50:20
So, God made that person rape those kids, for his glory. No, I think not. So, God made that person to be prideful, and made that person to lust, for his glory. I think not, because scripture tells us, that pride and lust come from the world.
Thank you for this heartfelt explanation
Heartfelt???? Far from it.
If God doesn't give mankind freewill, then He is forcing people to sin. That is NOT the God of the Bible. God doesn't relinquish His Sovereignty by giving man enough freewill to accept or reject God's offer of pardon, through Christ dying on the cross. God, in His sovereignty, decides to allow us to choose right from wrong.
True there are MANY places in scripture old and new testament that show God is literally in control of Literally everything that happens. no bird dies apart from his will. He has absolute tabs on everything even the numbers of hairs on our heads.
Thats Amazing
Bernard boateng - Yes, God is all powerful & in control of everything, He knew all of us before we were even born - I love God & His Son, Jesus, who died for my sins & for all mankind so we may have eternal life IF we accept Him as our Savior - we have a choice ( free will), either heaven or hell, you decide before it’s too late - God bless
Soooo this debate between calvinism and arminiasm has caused a huge controversy. I always kind of took what Piper taught with a grain of salt, and I remember listening to Piper years ago and his message always centered directly around Christ which was the only teaching that ever drew me in. I still love John Piper but I personally think that trying to fully understand predestination is not possible unless God, Himself has graced within your mind and understanding any ounce of His knowledge concerning it because scripture clearly says that His ways are above are ways and His thoughts are above our thoughts. I look at points from both views and can possibly see some possibilities, but I can see how it has caused discord in many ways. I've seen some calvinsts go as far as having the mindset along the lines of "well, i'm personally selected by God, therefore I can't lose my salvation." which is dangerous thinking....the stance I take on it is that those that will be truly saved and will endure to the end, were known and are known by God because He has understanding of all things, there is nothing that He doesn't know. God is a God of fairness and justice. Those that ignorantly follow after doctrines of demons, apostate theology, deception, and any anti-Christ doctrine, you can be assured that God sees their ignorance, those that are His, He will not allow to be completely led astray without correction because He is their Father, and as a Father, He corrects those that are His children. Without correction, they are not His children. The ignorance within a believer's mind can clearly be seen by God, in it's full entirety. This should prompt us to stay in constant, consistent prayer and communion with the Lord. I find it so compelling to pray for my heart and mind to be renewed and cleansed by God, and for myself to be examined for any unrighteousness that may be there. Those that are truly the Father's are being transformed into the image of Christ. I can think of certain verses and i'm paraphrasing, about those that are fitted for destruction, and those that he foreknew he predestined to be made into the image of Christ, when you take into account that there is not a feather that can drift in any place at anytime that has not been foreseen by God, everything has been planned and seen beforehand.
I also wanted to add that, I think that what Piper said is actually correct when you truly understand that God knows all things. It's not too hard for me to understand that. I just don't associate myself with being a calvinist or an arminiast, or any of the like.
***** Lol all glory to God, i'm glad you found it helped in some way. I've been looking at the different sides for some years since I've gotten saved, what triggered me to dig deeper was the fact that in my mind, I kept running into this one specific thought. I took it into prayer and literally was distraught thinking about it, then through prayer and with God straightening out and strengthening my understanding, I started to understand it! God is awesome like that!
+Kaylah Erin Turner
THE EDITED VERSION OF THIS MESSAGE IS (29) MESSAGES BELOW THIS ONE
lol
dylan mcphee Are you a calvinist?
Kaylah Erin Turner I am hesitant to say yes because many have a misinformed view of, or misunderstanding of the doctrines of grace. In fact, LITERALLY every person whom I have spoken to on the topic that are not "Calvinists", misrepresents the doctrines of grace. Whether the cause is a misunderstanding of the doctrines of grace or an intentional misrepresentation. Either way, they are always attacking a "straw man". And every person who does understand it correctly is already a "Calvinist" lol. These are only those whom I have spoken to about the topic.
So yes, I am a "Calvinist". But (and I think you understand this) we do NOT hold Calvin higher in any way, shape, or form, then other men. John Calvin was a wretched sinner just like every human being on earth and we ALL deserve God's wrath.
I merely agree with his interpretation of the bible and believe it to be the accurate understanding of scripture.
There's the perfect will of God and the permissible will of God
What about the irresistible will of God.
How can we make a choice about the cross if every decision is already determined by God? Calvinists are confused, and if you let them, they will confuse you also. So, are you saying that God decreed child rape? James White says yes. If God is the one who decreed all things, both good and evil, then where is culpability? There is no need for judgement, and what sense is there in preaching the gospel? God knows who will be saved, and in fact has already saved them.
I am so grateful for the neutral perspective God has given me. The Bible teaches both predestination and free will. Since both are Biblical doctrines, how do we bring the two together, forming one cohesive truth? Understanding foreknowledge and God's permissive will is key to understanding God's plan. Romans 8:29 is my starting point. The Greek proginosko can only be translated foreknow or foresee. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate..." Peter also used the same word, in the same context. 1Pet.1:2 reads: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..." God knew what we would do when the gospel was preached to us, then allowed our life to take its specific course, thus bringing us to that exact moment of choice, because he knew what we would choose. God never violates our free will to choose! If he forced us to love him, is that really love? Isn't that called rape? The Holy Spirit is the spirit of prophecy; so to deny God's foreknowledge is to deny the prophetic aspect of Scripture. We also need to consider Job. In the book of Job, we see God's permissive will in action. He allowed the devil to afflict Job. God did not do it. The devil asked for permission and God granted it, with the exception of sparing the life of Job. When the Bible ascribes evil to God, it is simply saying that God permitted evil. Every one is tempted when they are drawn away by their own lust.
The controversy is settled in one verse of Scripture. Proverbs 16:9 answered this lifelong search for me. "A man's heart (or mind) devises his way, but the Lord directs his steps." In this verse we see both free will choice and sovereign direction. God put the tree in the garden so that Adam would have a choice. While Adam made the wrong choice, God foreknew it and therefore had a backup plan.
Calvinists believe in a God that forces himself upon his subjects. John Calvin forced himself upon his subjects, and now his followers are trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us. If you are saved, you were predestined, but only because of God's foreknowledge. Don't believe the heretical lies of Calvinists. Pray for them, but don't follow them. Your testimony will be silenced. When have you ever heard a Calvinist give an altar call? Choose you this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord!
in Jesus name,
Pastor Brett