Nations Built on Ideas: United States vs the Soviet Union | Dan Carlin and Lex Fridman
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 พ.ย. 2020
- Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Dan Carlin: Hardcore H...
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The emergence of the podcast is probably the best thing that’s happened to civilization in the age of social media . It’s like the antidote to the “post “ or “ sound bite “ .... you get context.
You also have access to all the knowledge in the world.. more than president had 50 years ago. Only knowledge We had growing up was what family, teachers, or a textbook told me. Kinda crazy.
Relax guys. It's a podcast that gives you at most 2 perspectives.
You guys are making it sound like you just solved all the world's problems.
Lol
Dan Carlin is a very wise man. Brilliant, in fact.
Overrated.
France is an idea though
From the future and the vote for biden didn't age well. All the "geniuses" voted for...
0:58 When you say France, I think of Liberté, égalité, fraternité ...
Yes it wasn’t a great example , but i get the sentiment
Rodger that. I have a good friend who is Swedish but who lives where I do in the U.S. (and who loves the U.S. btw) who said the exact same thing recently using Sweden as the counter example. "America is a nation of ideas and ideas can change, but nothing can make me not Swedish." Btw, he also eloquently describes how he left Sweden not knowing how to do things with his hands and now he has a side job as a lawn keeper/landscaper and has learned how to do all sorts of constructive things. It's interesting to hear him describe things that I take for granted as a lifelong American.
England is a better example
And what about "Liberté, égalité, fraternité" that's quite the motto right?
Literally... The French were one of the first country's which ensure great change due to ideology
I agree, I’m surprised Dan gave France as an example two times because they are famous for producing The Declaration of the Rights of Man and is basically the home of the Enlightenment, which Dan references 🤷♂️
@onezerooneo I think Dan meant that the French spirit supercedes the government but in America the ideology of government supercedes the peoples. The french love breaking apart their government when it comes into conflict with their ideals. Americans (and late Soviets) change their ideals when it comes into conflict with their government. I think he just mispoke/didn't explain what he meant thoroughly enough.
It's Tragic Beauty. The surrender of one's self for the love of nation is freeing, until you realize that, like any individual the nation will always be flawed. At least the free individual has the capacity to transform his own flaws, whereas the sacrificed self gives himself up for an idealized state to which he can never confer any improvement.
Good point
Yea but now, in america, we are ruled by the whims of the rich and their flaws.
How would you know?
Wish more people took the time to think that deeply.
I agree up to the last line. It's difficult to improve the state, not impossible.
Dan Carlin is awesome. His biggest plus is that he takes everything in context. Everything. He looks at things from every point of view with their history in mind and why that conflict happened. Its awesome. I wish leaders from around the world could think like this man
Great discussion
And carlin summed it up perfectly after. Traditionally all governments have a crazy track record of corruption, way over taxing, currency manipulation. And so more it's too much to list this early in the morning. But what you said woke me up enough to write a half ass coment..
Great Dialogue
Watch “The Other Dream Team” - the Lithuanian basketball team who in the same year won their independence - went to the Olympics sponsored by the Grateful Dead. Its a documentary - very inspiring w/the love of country.
Damn right Dan. Always be suspicious of the Government. Any Government!
I wonder what Dan Carlin thinks about the realist camp when it comes to geopolitics
France is also an idea-based nationalism, genius. The principles of the Enlightenment and Republicanism. There was no cohesive French National identity that preexisted this. You had multiethnic populations (Gallo-Roman, Aquitani, Frankish) subject to a multiplicity of different elite authorities, bound by a common religious identity and the institutional integration of the Holy Roman Empire (the nascent period of national development). It wasn’t until the assent of Enlightenment principles and Napoleon’s imperial project that a proper French nation arrives on the historic stage.
Agreed, though the HRE was Germany, not France.
Little bit of a recency bias. Growing up during the Cold War we as Americans were much more patriotic. Lex just wasn't here during that time.
Bro, who is drinking Aquafina? That stuff has a horrible ph level. Stay healthy guys 👍. Great dialog btw
on what basis can you say that this way is morally correct and that way is morally wrong?
Yo France wtf? Totally based on ideology.
I think the point is that like many European countries, France is at least a 1000 years old, during which the French people have experienced feudalism, catholicism, nationalism, strongmen like Napoleon, fascist rule under Hitler and democracy up until today. In this sense it would be false to think that France would vanish from existence once the ideas of liberty are dismissed.
Free from the burden of your own freedoms. Like a farm animal.
Reactionary
If you like history/ interesting facts podcast, try mine please: th-cam.com/video/MVjFJudp8Qk/w-d-xo.html
Both Lex and Dan Carlin are killing it in this clip. It's really hard to try and understand the logic and motivation behind foreign ideologies. I think doing so is the only thing that is going to save humanity from itself.
I get it, the various possible framings of “freedom”. That said, if there ever comes a day when the US government welds people into their homes, then perhaps we should use a tighter construction of the term.
Lex is right about the Soviet national anthem. It's pretty good
Dan Carlin/Martin Freeman?
I think you pissed off the French 😂
Totally agree with the Soviet national anthem!
Dan is the epitome of an open minded person. Awesome
Great, reasoned discussion. And for the record the correct answer is: Liberty is better.
Liberty for who?
@@larsetom1 The people in their country.
@@stranger8105 For someone who offers the "correct answer" you really haven't thought this thru have you? Who are the "people" how do you define the "country"? For example: Are prisoners at Guantanamo people? If an area is not a "county" is it justified to deprive them liberty? The only simple answer that works is: liberty for everyone everywhere.
@@larsetom1 I've thought it through just fine - as have the founders of my country long ago. The liberty model is proven. Please don't confuses neo-conservative, interventionist mistakes as part of the liberty model. I do not agree with Imperialistic interventionism, which is of course driven by hubris and greed - and is contrary to the principals of liberty. The Communists have a terrible history of this as well, it is not unique to countries with a liberty model.
@@stranger8105 RE: " neo-conservative, interventionist mistakes" - That's how the MSM spins it but these were not "mistakes" anymore than Vietnam was a "mistake" (and both were bi-partisan). And the US has been engaging in "Imperialistic interventionism" since 1898 at least. "Hubris and greed" are as American as apple pie. In US history, "liberty" has ALWAYS been selective. Were slaves "people", did they live in the "country"? Were Native Americans "people", did they live in the "country"? Are Mexicans in this county people? They didn't cross the border, the border crossed them. That's why my question" Liberty for who?
What you said about US, that the people are drawn by constitution, freedom etc. Well, have we forgot those ideas were literaly the reason why France had their revolution in the first place. Egalite fraternite liberte, sounds american if you translate it:)
E plurabis unum refers to the states not the people
Anyone else think Dan Carlin looks like Bilbo a little?
"Soviet union in the 90's"
Not very much the soviet union then but we got your point.
Bureaucratie issues are not as simple as discussed, hopefully Lex you go back to rethink this topic in depth as your capable to do so more than I probably could.
And yes amongst other factors, dogmatism might be a real killer of those "ideologically based empires".
Something tells me that, despite how we try to convince ourselves of the contrary, China is the less biased and dogmatic country in this renewed confrontation.
As someone who lived in China for 10 years I'll just say that yes "Human rights" as chinese understand it is just an ideological weapon that does not hold the values it is supposed to defend. A modern version of "bringing civilization and Christianity to the world" during colonial europe while pillaging. On a fundamental level they are not against human rights, even the original western philosophical concept which they do understand.
Let's throw a brick and hopefully catch some jade here with an analogy, as cheesy as it gets. Isn't the CCP operating like a startup, experiencing, iterating, evolving always working hard in order to survive and grow, not repeating the mistakes it made and its competitor/allies made or are currently making? So maybe to get from 0 to 1?
@12:17 Ultimately, the "eye of the beholder" stuff has got to go: STUFF IT IN YOUR EAR @$$h0l3$!!!! Equivocation... IMHO
France was a bad example IMO. Separation of church and state, for example is an ideology that the USA and France once shared - no more for America but still a huge foundational principal of French society.
Begone, leftist!
France created the state sponsored god during the Revolution, along with the Gullotine.
@@CO8848_2 Yeah and it lasted as long as Robespierre - less than 2 months. Do you believe separation of church and state is a good thing or do you think religion should be intertwined with politics? If it is the later - why do you think the founding fathers of America were so wrong on this point?
@@pat7504 No, it is in French blood, indoctrinated through their lives. All French citizens believe in the faux god called the government. LOL, that's why they are on their, what, "5th" Republic and they are still royally screwed. If there is a separation of church and state, it is in the US, but under strenuous attack by the Left.
@@CO8848_2 1. Have you ever lived in France or do you keep up with French social and political matters? They consistently protest and attack their governments - this is so well known I'm worried your being disingenuous.
2. Most people would think it was the opposite and that the right in America are the ones who want a closer relationship with the government and 'the church'. Even a completely godless guy like Trump tried and was relatively successful in wooing the evangelicals to vote for him. Though I do not believe all of them fall for his obvious using of religion to get votes - they just want him to enact their political will.
okay im just gonna be that guy this guest says every leaders name different then i was told so now im confused and im angry lol this is the 2nd clip ive seen with him n in the last one he did it too. im scared n confused.
so few comments :0
Dan’s point about how his bias is “it’s undeniably positive to spread America’s values to Iraq, etc” I don’t think the drive of this feeling is the goodness of American’s hearts I think it’s really just another form of control, fear, racism, greed. The kind that the primarily English and German immigrants brought to North America when it was being colonised and now it manifests in this way.
Then leave for Fucks sake......the whole world is a dumpster fire and always will be as long as Terra Firma has a bunch of Silverbacks armed with AR's running around on it, as it does now and did back then, just replace the gunpowder with tendons and getting buhtazz naked and super shroomed as a equally potent super weapon ..
.long as we ego muddled fuckshits exist, the quickening of Earth's decay shall bloom in full 🌕
“Ideological society”
Yeah, with an unchanging ethnic core of Europeans for most of its existence.
4:58 what a Stupid idea to think "We are indestructible", think about the other Succesful nations...
That's right DAN here come's you're B.S. Eugene Oregon politics.
These guys really need the gospel!!!!
our rights are God given not given by paper or government regardless of what another may say that was the intention of the founding fathers.
Rights are man made & can change at any time.
!!!!!!!
The difference is that Russia is much more racially/culturally homogeneous.
Far from the truth
Lex is Russian asset.
China and Russia would be great… if not for the corruption, oppression and restriction of freewill. 😂
“A beautiful love of your government”, shows the indoctrination was strong.
That is nothing specific for commie countries. Most western European countrys that before was homogenous thought in the same way and they did not have communism. Americans cant understand that because they never were a homogenous country.
I guess like always the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle :)
@@abc-eq9so Western Europe had been swept by the socialism movement.
@@CO8848_2 It does not have anything to do with Socialism. I'm talking even long before ww1. Countries with a homogenous population and a culture hundreds of years older than USA tend to have another view on their government. You Americans are obsessed with socialism.
@@abc-eq9so Ok, you need to stop watching fake history channel and start doing some reading. Capitalism, socialism and democracy is a good starting point. Get a fricking clue.
@@CO8848_2 I've lived in all three societies.
It’s hard to wipe my own.... bias.
Somewhere in the development of an authoritarian society one guy says "Hey maybe we should goose step."
The Love of Russia: I had many Russian Immigrant co-workers 20 years ago. They would sadly say: "Ah... Ruuuussiaaaah" But they did not want to live in Putins Russia. They were all Christians, and were happy they escaped Communism, and the post Communist leaders. They were not thrilled with the US, but they loved living in the USA. They did not understand why Americans did not love living in the USA. This is Western Mass., so there are a lot of hippies, and progressive liberals, and academics who are not sure if it is moral to live another day in their white skin... Now we have a lot of Romanians, and Moldovians in my little town... I don't know were all the Russians went! I think they moved to the midwest? There used to be a protestant Russian church, but now it's TWO Moldovan/Romanian churches. The Russians are all gone... Well, There is one family still here... My neighbor is named Russlan: "Russian Speaker", but he's Georgian... And he sports long dread locks, so he's a different kind of character. He's working on being a rock star, actually! Russlan is in no way a religious refugee, he's on a mission... TO ROCK!!! IMHO
Same thing for Americas that moved to south mexico when they retire, they cant understand why Mexicans don't love they country the way they do. goes both ways.
I would live in Russia no problem, if you think they're communist you're stuck in the 90's.
America has no shared ideology anymore.
Ideas are useless without the force of arms.
And "great" ideas don't require force.
@@kevinknight777 Without the power of the sword an idea will remain an idea no matter how great you think it is. Communism didn't spread because people thought it was a great idea and the same can be said of any ideology ascribed to the West. They all spread by the sword.
@@matikhorasani3842 indeed communism did not spread without the sword, and in my comment lies the critique of it: "great" ideas don't require force. I personally, will not argue that communism was or is a "great" ideal.
And the legs...dont skip leg day bruh!
How naive is Carlin
I find it so reductive to believe that individualism and collectivism is inherently in conflict in this way. Who do you think the collective consists of? Individuals!
So if you want to take care of the *individual* right of everyone you have to think *both* collectively and individually.
Does any political system work in this way? Yes, (social) anarchism. Sadly, not something many people know, they either seem to know state socialism or individualist capitalism.
Well…Because what’s “right” for the individual can be in direct conflict (and often is) with the “right” of the collective. Collective masses are superficial or corrupted representations of individuals. Individuals are representative of themselves, corrupted on how much of their individuality should be compromised for the Collective; lest the collective shun or kill the individual.
The tension and conflict between the individual and group are unavoidable.
@@drizzle452 choose to be a rampant individual. It’s more interesting
Even in an collective, individuals want FREEDOM. Freedom to be able to think for themselves. Only the poor thinks like a collective because they are poor, or helpless.
Believing in something bigger then yourself that’d be God Lex. Govt is not the solution to our problems, big govt is the problem
That's why commies have destroyed their enemy - the church.
I don't understand how Lex can be so naive? Doesn't he understand how dangerous this kind of belief in the state can be?
Not the deepest conversation. For eg, France's national identity is deeply ideological. Every nation state is deeply ideological, the concept is a relatively recent creation, yet since its creation there have been several mass-scale wars. Need to have more qualified expert guests on and not social media intellectuals.
There is no comparison, USA is 300 years ahead at least, by the way i live in a comunist country heavy soviet influence, so i know what i mean.
Quiet hard to sit here and listen to this guy talking about america spreading freedom to iraq. That is not why you guys were there
I agree. Petro$USD
He’s very confused. Everyone wants freedom. It’s not a US thing. The US has the biggest percentage if people in prison relative to it’s population in the world. The freedom that some people in the US have is largely built on the oppression and exploitation of people in other nations. That is what they don’t like about the US, not freedom. The whole ‘they hate us because we are free’ idea is completely absurd for anyone outside the US. It’s a nation wide superiority complex.
@@wuschelthepuschel critiques of America always fall short to me because while I mostly agree. They always have an air that something out their is better or different than the us which is the exact same superiority the us citizens have. Countries and lines in the sand do little do divide our humanity. The beauty and the gross.
I know you commented 2 years ago, but what Mr Carlin actually said is how difficult it is to discard the doctrination that makes you feel your ideology is superior.
Meaning that he himself is not actually agreeing to imposing American ideals on Iraq, but he is aware of how the minds of those who do think that way work
Does that make sense to you? Pretty much he's making a wider comment on why people strongly align with their nation. Hope your doing well after 2 years Mark
Quite*
I love Lex's podcast save for the romanticizing of communism, patriotism, Putin, etc. Maybe he should keep it to AI, math and physics.
The USA does have a subservience beyond individualism. Liberty UNDER God
So if you think about China China also has Hong Kong who also live by a sort of Western ideology in China is trying to take over that and convert them back and they are fighting desperately in this case you have a communist party and then a western ideology implanted in the middle and they have chosen the Western ideology and are fighting to keep it
So basically your admitting Hong Kong was stolen by the west,
@Barret Wallace BS
@@free_wifihesinnocent5553 Hong Kong was a fishing village nobody cared about, once England established their imperial port there, it thrived and eventually overtook Shanghai as the financial center of Asia. Chinese people flocked to Hong Kong so it because of the Western system worked.
Russia and America combined would be the greatest most balanced country ever.
Disagree with him
Jesus lex. That was about the longest PRO COMMUNIST speech I've ever heard from you. "Just give up your rights and let go to your government" that's scary bro.