2:26:00 So I'm finally finishing up this vod, and I've also read through a couple of the AD&D BR novels I'd mentioned prior - and I'm now convinced this setting was a huge influence on GRRM for ASOIAF. (note I am gonna get more rambly toward the end of this comment but I promise it will all come together eventually lol.) The first novel "The Iron Throne" (NOV 1995) by Simon Hawke is broken up over three books, the first of which is the childhood adventures/perils of the young Michael Roele (sole Imperial Heir) and Richard Dosier (sole heir to the Imperial Chamberlain), followed by an eight-year gap that is recapped in the following novel. I think this very clearly was the original outline GRRM used, plans you've mentioned multiple times at various points about his original plan for the ASOIAF series. Some other notable events/similarities (moreso of the setting than the novels necessarily): the gods once walked Aebrynis, of which there were 7, 6 of light and one of the darkness, most notable here are Anduiras noble lord of war and patron of the Andu (which the Andals have some fair resemblance to....) and Azrai (the lord of evil and possible inspiration for the name Azor-Ahai but that is totally speculative). The main continent of the setting is Cerilia (home of elves, goblins, dwarves, gnolls, ogres, and more), which was once connected to a southern continent named Aduria (home of humanity and the beastmen, possibly others it lacks detail) by a landbridge that would ultimately be destroyed in a war of the gods at Mt. Deismaar. The gods would die in this battle, and their essence would flow into new gods as well as divinely-blooded champions that could hold an Arthurian relationship with the land. Goblins, gnolls, the Vos tribes (far northerners, used to worship the god of magic Vorynn but largely got corrupted to Azrai), and a few elves that hated humans more than they hated evil fought for Azrai, while the other five tribes, most elves, and some dwarves fought with the 6. The apocalyptic battle of Mt.Deismaar would also transport much of Azrai's army into the Spirit Realm, and within the Spirit Realm Azrai's own essence would eventually coalesce, and his divinely-blooded minions spread across the spirit realm as warlords, largely corrupting and twisting this parallel Cerilia into what is now called "The Shadow World." The magic of this world is heavily tied to the land and nature, and there are natural ley-lines (a hinge-of-the-world we might say) and convergences of "Mebaighl" the magic of the land. Elves are called Sidhelion, very celtic (especially Gaelic & Welsh) language and mythic culture, the reason they struggled so hard with humans is the elves have no gods, and divine magic is very powerful (elves are however the greatest of arcane sorcerers) - in their stories the sky used to have no stars, until elves (and dragons) started to die and created the "Tallamai" which they call their ancestors and which act as fortunes or fates mythically speaking. Sometimes the Tallamai fall to ground or otherwise influence the world and worlds/planes beyond, and are associated with magic like the moon is (Vorynn, later Rournil after Deismaar, are god of both magic and the moon). Finally, the last heir to the Anuirean empire (Andu descendants), Michael Roele, would face rebellion from the lords of Boeruine (western vassal, one Archduke Arwynn Boeruine a mountainous knight of a man from a stormy coastal region, just like a certain Baratheon...) which he would defeat after a long civil war, only for Michael Roele to get himself killed fighting Anuire's ancient enemy "The Gorgon" (prince Raesane Roele, bastard brother of the Roele dynasty founder and servant of Azrai, he bears the Awnsheglein (Awn-SHAY-lin) shadow-tainted blood which has turned him into a giant, horned goat-legged bull-horned man with stoney skin) and ultimately shatter the empire into many nations. There are many parallels to the Valyrian empire in the Anuirean empire, and Raesene/The Gorgon even bears a blood-red dragon on a black field as the heraldic arms of his banner which may have inspired the Targaryan sigil. There is more to draw on as parallels that I'm sure your more skilled self could derive from these old novels (you may even find some in the various modules and supplement books for the RPG stuff!) some of it is a bit dated, though there is a fan-made update, and much of it (except five of the novels and the one comic) can be found fairly readily on PDF. I hope you'll give it a good look and maybe a shoutout once you've cooked up a video about whatever you ultimately find relevant from these books/setting and expose thousands of people to a fairly rich but niche bit of fantasy that has far too little exposure and is far more influential on contemporary fantasy than many realize (a sort of "your favorite author's favorite obscure fantasy setting" lol). Cheers David, you're my favorite ASOIAF community leader and lorekeeper! 😄❤
Ooh, small addendum, I knew I forgot something! Okay so one of the Sidhelion (Elven) realms known as Tuarhieval has a magical throne that bears *direct* resemblance to the Weirwoods! It is known as the Throne of Thorn, and is a large rose tree with white and red blooms, in "The Iron Throne" it is described similarly to a weirdwood and the Elven Prince that sits upon it has farseeing abilities (possibly tied to the throne, this is uncertain though iirc), and this magic tree throne will also puncture anyone unworthy that sits upon it Edit: Also also, the old evil god Azrai his essence in the Shadow Real would become "The Cold Rider," so there is another parallel there with Azor Ahai becoming conquering the spirit realm and becoming a lord of the cold in the process
Loved this stream so much, especially the idea that the ice moon is still up there, cloaked in a magic shadow. Also loved Michael’s white walker video earlier today. Thank you two for keeping me going through the slog of one of the final days of work before a little Christmas break.
Can I just say I love this guest? Bringing up elden ring unprompted to bolster asoiaf theories makes me so happy. Now I can quiet the voice in my head that says "just like in Elden Ring" every time lml makes a mystical/mythical point about ice and fire
Both of these guys should write their own fantasy novels. I don't know if all of their theories will ever be confirmed in GRRM's books but I love the ideas and would love to see them realized in novels.
Watching Michael's video yesterday and seeing you two team up in the same day was awesome! Love these theories. Thanks for keeping the excitement up for tWoW
I really crave some outro music, even just give us the hightower visual with the intro music again, i feel so pumped after a good stream and want to celebrate
Oily black stone as the missing ingredient of Valyrian steel..🤯 that sounds perfect! Especially if Dawn(the original dragonsteel) was also made from a meteorite..banger stream!
17:00 So the closest parallel to a "shadow moon" that I can think of is from Warhammer Fantasy - the great and baleful gaze of the chaos moon - Morrslieb. This chaos moon is made of chaos-tainted warpstone which regularly falls to the ground, these meteors have even destroyed entire cities (Mordheim in Ostermark was one of the largest). This warpstone is incredibly powerful and seems to have some type of magi-scientific radiation that causes mutation and can empower the winds of magic. It is namely used by the Skaven (anthropomorphic and evil ratmen) and beastmen (mainly anthropomorphic goat-bulls with fangs). May be worth looking a bit more into Warhammer Fantasy than I'd have thought before in terms of analyzing GRRMs ASOIAF work, as for my end I'm very excited to soon be getting the AD&D Birthright (Cerilia/Aebrynis) novels, I'll let you know just how much I think they have influenced George (I mean, he named Ned Stark after the chief editor of the setting, Ed Stark, so there is some overlap there for sure)
Killer stream. You two are great stream team! When you said the nipples, nipples, nipples thing I heard it in your Robert Boratheon titles, titles, titles voice and had a good laugh. Thanks Michael and David.
When we speak of Moon Worship, then we ought to consider the octagonal shape of the roof of the building that became the Nightfort is a direct allusion to the Moon worship. Moon following and the octagon are closely related concepts. Also there is a major weirwood there. This is also the only castle on the wall that has steps leading up to the wall. There are also steps below that lead through the wall that Coldhands (the Night Queen) knows about but can not pass. If memory serves, the Nightfort is also the centre of the wall. As we know, The wall contains all the 76 who deserted their watch (of presumably an earlier wall or walls). Those 76 were nailed to trees with their intestines out. These 76 (possibly more are inside the wall and what keeps it cold) are watchers of the wall who literally can not abandon their post). The 76 were denied guest right. When a Stark ruler puts his sword over his lap he is saying "no guest right". The dead Starks of the crypt have swords over their laps "to prevent vengeful spirits". Something awful happened as a result of the 76 abandoning their post. Something that led to their being nailed to trees (as Deanerys does later). Something that leads to how Starks are still laid to rest. ASOIAF has some of it's beginning here It is no accident that GRRM told us that The Nightfort had been rebuild several times and had an octagonal roof. If we pull on this thread, we will see something revealed.
3:00:44 What *can* we learn from early drafts of ASOAIF?? I recently watched this myself, seeking answers to that very question. Recommended viewing! th-cam.com/video/unazANxIBLw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=NDPep-WhKe5V_by6
Michael’s video draws from the books’ passages and terminology to tell his theory of shadow Babies from both Ice side and Fire side of this world. It is VERY WELL DONE! And well displayed! Go get this information from MichaelTalksaboutStuff channel!!!
The Blackwoods have a dead tree with the Ravens out of their tree because is dead, poisoned/corrupted. Also about Winterfell, it could be interpreted as where "Winter Fell" (was defeated) but also as where "Winter Fell" (the place where the Long Night was started) and that could mean that we have Lyanna/Nissa Nissa and the original NN down in the Winterfell crypts, that are in the base of the Godswood. Sometimes I think the Blackwoods being exiled have conecction to the Ravens being exiled from the corrupted tree of their sigil.
I think the Season actually aren't caused by the magical astronomy and moon stuff. There's this tendency in the history where Winter tends to start right as or right after big wars in Westeros, and tends to end around or shortly after those wars end. I theorize that the Seasons are being controlled in some way by the weirwood net. and after the corruption of the weirwood net, the "natural state" became endless winter, and to keep that from happening people had to make sacrifices to the weirwoods to power them and keep summer going, and the reason wars tend to happen in winter and winter tends to end winter is that the big wars soak lots and lots of blood into the soil (and the weirwood net). Wars starting around the beginning of winter I think is either just a coincidence (lessening of resources as summer is burning out causing pressures leading to war) or there's also an emotional component (either conflict triggering winter or the others triggering both winter and conflict)
Is it just me, or is the chat being its very best self in this stream? So sorry I missed this live. You and Michael sound like you've been doing this together for ages.
Black and White AKA Fire & Ice moon symbology is one of my favourite topics. I believe there's a lot of dual sword subtext too, relating to a black fire sword battling a white ice sword.
Idea: Shade of the Evening Trees are either exactly the same species as Weirwoods or a related species, they are more corrupted (symbolically dead rather than dying) because of the corruption/destruction of the Fire Moon. The Essosi weirwoods being tethered to the Fire Moon rather than the Ice Moon, and this is the mechanism by which the Land can be tethered to a specific moon in the first place. This could also mean that burning and destroying the weirwood net entirely is actually the solution
When you say that a comet big enough to shatter the second moon would be a runaway planet, you're presuming that the second moon was the size of the real world one. That's not neccessarily the case: real moons vary in size enormously from small planets to big asteroids. In fact, it's highly unusual for a planet the size of Earth to have a moon the size of ours. If we had a second one, the overwhelming likelihood is that it would be a captured asteroid that was much smaller.
Hearing about runaway planets just reminds me of Dragonriders of Pern, and the crazy genetically manipulated man-created dragons from that series that jump through dimensions...Man that series is wild.
All this moon magic and no mention of Dragonlance’s three magic moons? One for good mages, one for neutral mages and one for evil mages. Not a direct parallel, but still a moon magic system. And nice shoutout to Thundarr, one of my favorite cartoons back in the day.
I agree 🙈 I feel like David may have been a bit baked throughout the video 😅 I found myself getting a little frustrated with David for not letting his guest speak openly and freely about his theories and points. Just when I started to follow Michael's point, David jumped in 😢😂
The Weirwoods being the conduit to the magic from the moon, would explain the Others being cast from Weirwoods, like in David's theory, the reason why they build castles with walls protected by magic around the Weirwoods, it also could mean that the Weirwoods were green when both moons were up un the sky, and became corrupted when the other moon got destroyed...love the stream ❤
If shadow binding is a kind of necromancy, and it is the same kind we see done with Beric, then you may both be right about Jon as the Night King. Wights seem to have a remnant of their soul in their body, similar to Beric. So when Jon’s body is snatched a weakened shadow of Jon’s may be called back to run his body for the Others in the same way Beric is not fully himself. We see that Stanis can cast a shadow while his soul remains in his body, so while Jon’s real/pure soul may be in Ghost a version of his angry vengeful self (see Stone Heart) may be controlling his body as the new Night King, which would satisfy both of your narrative predictions.
"like black holes in the sky" is a Pink Floyd lyric. The Dark Side of the Moon, as you know, is a Pink Floyd album. I think GRRM is having a playful flourish here.
Planning to catch this on the rewatch, but currently I'm watching a terrible movie called Moonfall. It's about moon meteors! And Samwell Tarly's in it! Thought you'd get a kick out of that.
Am I the only one who has never clicked on one of David's videos, to only find myself waking up to his videos legit every time they fall asleep listening to random shit. I was listening to a random Desitiny video before this was about to fall asleep and this video autoplayed....
well TH-cam must be trying to improve your politics! From Destiny's morally depraved defense of Is-not-real's gen0cide, to my morally correct position of "free, free P@lestine, and F*CK Is-not-real"
I just saw a reddit post regarding GRRM drafts at the Cushing Library. One of the drafts for AFFC had the black candles granting immortality....probably old news but thought it was really interesting.
Yeah actual white or rainbow moonstone have inclusions of black tourmaline or other black crystals. Yeah, the red keep is more so a symbol of Earth, for the color Red or Rubedo is earth element, fire is yellow. Remember theres not only the golden sun and white moon but also the red moon (comet) & the black sun, the last two being rahu & ketu respectively.
Grateful Dead (Robert Hunter) lyrical link-up of the week . . . Holy Hell, the Night's Watch really is "Standing on the Moon" Standing on the moon I see a shadow on the sun Standing on the moon, the stars go fading one by one I hear a cry of victory, another of defeat A scrap of age-old lullaby down some forgotten street Standing on the moon, where talk is cheap and vision true Standing on the moon, but I would rather be with you Somewhere in San Francisco on a back porch in July Just looking up to heaven at this crescent in the sky In the sky Standing on the moon with nothing left to do A lovely view of heaven but I'd rather be with you A lovely view of heaven but I'd rather be with you Be with you I'd rather be with you
I think the pact you speak of is analogous to: The Baqt (or Bakt) (بقط) was a 7th-century treaty between the Christian state of Makuria and the new Muslim rulers of Egypt. Lasting almost seven hundred years, it is by some measures[which?] the longest-lasting treaty in history. The name comes either from the Egyptian's term for barter, or the Greco-Roman term for pact. In ASOIAF, I think the pact was made between the first men and the CotF. I think it worked. I think it would have continued to work had the 76 not abandoned their post. I think the weirwoods were a vast communication network that would have enabled the first men to prevent what the Andals did to the Weirwood trees. Protecting the Weirwood trees was part of the pact. I think the 76 abandoning their post is what ended the pact. The 76 were denied guestright. I think the way the Starks deny guest right and the way they bury their dead leaders is an allusion to how the pact was broken and a new pact formed with the Starks at Winterfell. This is why the 76 were nailed to the trees alive with their intestines out and "The Wall" was built. It is also how the walls construction is maintained, the dead make it so cold. I also think the tree at the construct now known as the Nightfort feeds the dead who are in the wall.
@DavidLightbringer I don't know whether they are sentinenels or weirwoods - either way those trees are in the wall with deadmen nailed to them. (Daenerys did the same.) As for the timeline. Maybe you're right; maybe you are wrong. These events happened a long time ago and it may well be that they are recorded in the wrong order. Maybe the timeline was recorded incorrectly in order to conceal a horrific truth.
snow avalanche coming from the moon? like perhaps the moon breaking and a meteor falling on the wall and causing an avalanche (both literal and allowing the others to come south)
I think a parralel to the white and dark moons could be the door to the house of black and white. It's made of weirwood so there is already a connection with the moon through that
Also if Drogon is the black moon in the sky then it would be very fitting that Dany was given a white horse, given to her by her husband by the same name, which is much closer to earth for obvious reasons. It being a horse also neatly connects it to yggdrasil and thus the weirwoods/icemagic while drogon is fire incarnate.
This two moons concept may also be an allusion to the two women of the Night King (Jon, the thirteenth Lord Commander) who we hear about in relation to the Wolf's Den and who Bran (chapter 66 AGoT) tells us is buried in the crypts of Winterfell. Jon appears to have two moons - Dany Flint and the Night Queen (who is Coldhands).
The phases of the moon are the death and reincarnation of the Lich queen as a metaphor for the birth of the others, and all of the other necromancy that we see
The bloodstone Lord, seizing power from the body of the moon maiden doesn’t conflict with this if anything it seems like the iron borne are either claiming responsibility for the hammer of the arm, or got power from the plunder of that act, i.e. the massive piece of oily black stone that they carved into theirl throne
While the dark moon represents necromancy, the silver moon that conceals the dark moon represents illusion and enchantment. That’s part of why the mirror shield is such a potent moon icon
Katelyn and her sister are potentially another metaphor for this connection between the two moons. David mentioned that the street that a straight is an arrow that connects the two hills that represents the two moons is sister Street. This is interesting in the context of Katlyn Stark becoming lady Stonehart and I wonder if in the books there will be some interaction between Lady Stonehartand her sister
Katelyn and her sister are potentially another metaphor for this connection between the two moons. David mentioned that the street that a straight is an arrow that connects the two hills that represents the two moons is sister Street. This is interesting in the context of Katlyn Stark becoming lady Stonehart and I wonder if in the books there will be some interaction between Lady Stonehartand her sister Katelyn, becoming ladies Stonehart would represent the dark moon and necromancy where her sister represents the illusion and enchantment of flying to the entire court about killing her husband and beginning the events of Game of Thrones
I commented ro the contrary on Michael's vid earlier, but now I'm leaning more towards the Nox's black moon and Ranni's dark moon are the same moon. Ranni's mom introduced her to that moon. The nox are waiting for their new Lord of Night, the Lunar Princess becomes the Icy God Queen and we become her Lord... of the chill Night. Fair enough. We are Jon Snow.
I think that Mel will fire resurrect jon, and he will stab her with his valyrian steel sword and make a shadow baby and/or bring on the long night. where stannis "stabbed" mel with his "sword" to birth a shadow baby, jon will do the same, but with a valyrian steel sword like to nissa nissa and cast a much more powerful form of the magic. Jon night's king
I be trying to catch you live and I always be watching these. This one particularly is bouncing into some Elden ring stuff. Brienne came to my mind when watching because she’s kind of like the sun and moon knight to me. Is there a chance the moon caused a tidal wave that became the wall the children or some northern magic stopped the tidal wave? Like a Noah’s arc type event?
Hear me out… if moon magic could pull a moon towards another moon or towards the sun, couldn’t that magic have also put the moon right in front of the sun? Long night could also be an eclipse state
Why is their any assumption that Azor Ahai is male? Isn't there reason to believe she may have been female? I seem to remember her being called Zhea Zorseface? Doesn't Azor Ahai have to pretend to be a man?
Zhea is not an Azor Ahai name. We have wondered if "the woman with the monkey's tail" that is said to be a Long Night hero in Yi Ti (probably who you're thinking of) might not be Yin Tar, which IS a name for Azor Ahai, but that's speculation in general i don't assume anything about the ancient figures, because they are likely representative more than literal. in some parallels Azor Ahai is female and Nissa Nissa male, but usually not, and in the myth, NN is female, so that's generally how we talk about them. Arya is a LH figure though and so is Brienne. Brienne has the same symbolism as Jon in a lot of ways
At 1hr 52mins, there is talk about the Night King. Might it be relevant that the Night King (Jon, 13th Lord Commander) was fathered by Bael the Bard and that Jon killed his Father?
@DavidLightbringer Maybe. But my reasoning does get to Brandon Ice Eyes (Benjen) being the Great Grandson of the Stark King. I don't mind at all that you think I have things mixed up. That said, I love your work. Keep going man.
Bold of you to assume we didn’t start with Michael’s 1.5 hour video
2:26:00 So I'm finally finishing up this vod, and I've also read through a couple of the AD&D BR novels I'd mentioned prior - and I'm now convinced this setting was a huge influence on GRRM for ASOIAF. (note I am gonna get more rambly toward the end of this comment but I promise it will all come together eventually lol.) The first novel "The Iron Throne" (NOV 1995) by Simon Hawke is broken up over three books, the first of which is the childhood adventures/perils of the young Michael Roele (sole Imperial Heir) and Richard Dosier (sole heir to the Imperial Chamberlain), followed by an eight-year gap that is recapped in the following novel. I think this very clearly was the original outline GRRM used, plans you've mentioned multiple times at various points about his original plan for the ASOIAF series. Some other notable events/similarities (moreso of the setting than the novels necessarily): the gods once walked Aebrynis, of which there were 7, 6 of light and one of the darkness, most notable here are Anduiras noble lord of war and patron of the Andu (which the Andals have some fair resemblance to....) and Azrai (the lord of evil and possible inspiration for the name Azor-Ahai but that is totally speculative). The main continent of the setting is Cerilia (home of elves, goblins, dwarves, gnolls, ogres, and more), which was once connected to a southern continent named Aduria (home of humanity and the beastmen, possibly others it lacks detail) by a landbridge that would ultimately be destroyed in a war of the gods at Mt. Deismaar. The gods would die in this battle, and their essence would flow into new gods as well as divinely-blooded champions that could hold an Arthurian relationship with the land. Goblins, gnolls, the Vos tribes (far northerners, used to worship the god of magic Vorynn but largely got corrupted to Azrai), and a few elves that hated humans more than they hated evil fought for Azrai, while the other five tribes, most elves, and some dwarves fought with the 6. The apocalyptic battle of Mt.Deismaar would also transport much of Azrai's army into the Spirit Realm, and within the Spirit Realm Azrai's own essence would eventually coalesce, and his divinely-blooded minions spread across the spirit realm as warlords, largely corrupting and twisting this parallel Cerilia into what is now called "The Shadow World." The magic of this world is heavily tied to the land and nature, and there are natural ley-lines (a hinge-of-the-world we might say) and convergences of "Mebaighl" the magic of the land. Elves are called Sidhelion, very celtic (especially Gaelic & Welsh) language and mythic culture, the reason they struggled so hard with humans is the elves have no gods, and divine magic is very powerful (elves are however the greatest of arcane sorcerers) - in their stories the sky used to have no stars, until elves (and dragons) started to die and created the "Tallamai" which they call their ancestors and which act as fortunes or fates mythically speaking. Sometimes the Tallamai fall to ground or otherwise influence the world and worlds/planes beyond, and are associated with magic like the moon is (Vorynn, later Rournil after Deismaar, are god of both magic and the moon). Finally, the last heir to the Anuirean empire (Andu descendants), Michael Roele, would face rebellion from the lords of Boeruine (western vassal, one Archduke Arwynn Boeruine a mountainous knight of a man from a stormy coastal region, just like a certain Baratheon...) which he would defeat after a long civil war, only for Michael Roele to get himself killed fighting Anuire's ancient enemy "The Gorgon" (prince Raesane Roele, bastard brother of the Roele dynasty founder and servant of Azrai, he bears the Awnsheglein (Awn-SHAY-lin) shadow-tainted blood which has turned him into a giant, horned goat-legged bull-horned man with stoney skin) and ultimately shatter the empire into many nations. There are many parallels to the Valyrian empire in the Anuirean empire, and Raesene/The Gorgon even bears a blood-red dragon on a black field as the heraldic arms of his banner which may have inspired the Targaryan sigil. There is more to draw on as parallels that I'm sure your more skilled self could derive from these old novels (you may even find some in the various modules and supplement books for the RPG stuff!) some of it is a bit dated, though there is a fan-made update, and much of it (except five of the novels and the one comic) can be found fairly readily on PDF. I hope you'll give it a good look and maybe a shoutout once you've cooked up a video about whatever you ultimately find relevant from these books/setting and expose thousands of people to a fairly rich but niche bit of fantasy that has far too little exposure and is far more influential on contemporary fantasy than many realize (a sort of "your favorite author's favorite obscure fantasy setting" lol). Cheers David, you're my favorite ASOIAF community leader and lorekeeper! 😄❤
Ooh, small addendum, I knew I forgot something! Okay so one of the Sidhelion (Elven) realms known as Tuarhieval has a magical throne that bears *direct* resemblance to the Weirwoods! It is known as the Throne of Thorn, and is a large rose tree with white and red blooms, in "The Iron Throne" it is described similarly to a weirdwood and the Elven Prince that sits upon it has farseeing abilities (possibly tied to the throne, this is uncertain though iirc), and this magic tree throne will also puncture anyone unworthy that sits upon it
Edit: Also also, the old evil god Azrai his essence in the Shadow Real would become "The Cold Rider," so there is another parallel there with Azor Ahai becoming conquering the spirit realm and becoming a lord of the cold in the process
Loved this stream so much, especially the idea that the ice moon is still up there, cloaked in a magic shadow. Also loved Michael’s white walker video earlier today. Thank you two for keeping me going through the slog of one of the final days of work before a little Christmas break.
Can I just say I love this guest? Bringing up elden ring unprompted to bolster asoiaf theories makes me so happy. Now I can quiet the voice in my head that says "just like in Elden Ring" every time lml makes a mystical/mythical point about ice and fire
Michael and eldric and I did an Elden ring stream a few weeks ago
@@DavidLightbringer I know it was fantastic
Great stream! Thank you, David and Michael. That was very interesting.
Happy holidays
All this talk of what’s at the heart of of winter and no one mentioned the obvious - Santa’s workshop!
So just to make sure I'm tracking along with you, the Children are, therefore, Santa's Little Helpers?
And Coldhands is riding Rudolph
@vegpedro7632 Rudolph the red-throated reindeer
Totally misread that as Sansa’s workshop, and now I’m imagining her making toys for all the children at Winterfell.
@wandaXmaximoff that's actually really sweet
The Moon is not a magic, it's a goddess, the wife of the Sun. It is known.
it is known
The sun god has two moonwives, but he killed one of them...
@@jonhauge-evaldsson783 it is known....
2:59:07 next week's stream will be about Moonboy for all i know
Fun stream. Really enjoyed the guest
He reminds me of a thrash metal guitarist but in a band where there are two guitarists who alternate leads rather than the rhythm/lead standard
I listened to Michael's vid earlier today, then this and now I feel like my brain is boiling.
Both of these guys should write their own fantasy novels. I don't know if all of their theories will ever be confirmed in GRRM's books but I love the ideas and would love to see them realized in novels.
Watching Michael's video yesterday and seeing you two team up in the same day was awesome! Love these theories. Thanks for keeping the excitement up for tWoW
More like Michael talks about Frank Zappa😂 killing it man
Thank the moons and stars for these two men
michaels video is sooo good! i watched it this morning! great work, go watch it!
I really crave some outro music, even just give us the hightower visual with the intro music again, i feel so pumped after a good stream and want to celebrate
Great collaboration! Well done for teasing out all the details!
Gotta flay that text!
Awesome collaboration ❤
Great stream
Correct Garth
I think one of the parallels of the fire moon hiding in plain sight on the small scale is Jon being secretly a Targaryen.
Oily black stone as the missing ingredient of Valyrian steel..🤯 that sounds perfect! Especially if Dawn(the original dragonsteel) was also made from a meteorite..banger stream!
if you're reading these comments and still haven't watched Michael's video, stop and go watch it.
17:00 So the closest parallel to a "shadow moon" that I can think of is from Warhammer Fantasy - the great and baleful gaze of the chaos moon - Morrslieb. This chaos moon is made of chaos-tainted warpstone which regularly falls to the ground, these meteors have even destroyed entire cities (Mordheim in Ostermark was one of the largest). This warpstone is incredibly powerful and seems to have some type of magi-scientific radiation that causes mutation and can empower the winds of magic. It is namely used by the Skaven (anthropomorphic and evil ratmen) and beastmen (mainly anthropomorphic goat-bulls with fangs). May be worth looking a bit more into Warhammer Fantasy than I'd have thought before in terms of analyzing GRRMs ASOIAF work, as for my end I'm very excited to soon be getting the AD&D Birthright (Cerilia/Aebrynis) novels, I'll let you know just how much I think they have influenced George (I mean, he named Ned Stark after the chief editor of the setting, Ed Stark, so there is some overlap there for sure)
Love the collab! The video is long but I loved it. Great theory work.
Killer stream. You two are great stream team! When you said the nipples, nipples, nipples thing I heard it in your Robert Boratheon titles, titles, titles voice and had a good laugh. Thanks Michael and David.
That was amusing to me also
titles titles titles that's hilarious
I bet you Robert says "titties titties titties" the same way
When we speak of Moon Worship, then we ought to consider the octagonal shape of the roof of the building that became the Nightfort is a direct allusion to the Moon worship.
Moon following and the octagon are closely related concepts. Also there is a major weirwood there. This is also the only castle on the wall that has steps leading up to the wall.
There are also steps below that lead through the wall that Coldhands (the Night Queen) knows about but can not pass.
If memory serves, the Nightfort is also the centre of the wall.
As we know, The wall contains all the 76 who deserted their watch (of presumably an earlier wall or walls). Those 76 were nailed to trees with their intestines out. These 76 (possibly more are inside the wall and what keeps it cold) are watchers of the wall who literally can not abandon their post).
The 76 were denied guest right.
When a Stark ruler puts his sword over his lap he is saying "no guest right".
The dead Starks of the crypt have swords over their laps "to prevent vengeful spirits".
Something awful happened as a result of the 76 abandoning their post. Something that led to their being nailed to trees (as Deanerys does later). Something that leads to how Starks are still laid to rest. ASOIAF has some of it's beginning here
It is no accident that GRRM told us that The Nightfort had been rebuild several times and had an octagonal roof. If we pull on this thread, we will see something revealed.
Amazing comment, thankyou!
3:00:44 What *can* we learn from early drafts of ASOAIF?? I recently watched this myself, seeking answers to that very question.
Recommended viewing! th-cam.com/video/unazANxIBLw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=NDPep-WhKe5V_by6
Michael’s video draws from the books’ passages and terminology to tell his theory of shadow Babies from both Ice side and Fire side of this world. It is VERY WELL DONE! And well displayed! Go get this information from MichaelTalksaboutStuff channel!!!
The Blackwoods have a dead tree with the Ravens out of their tree because is dead, poisoned/corrupted. Also about Winterfell, it could be interpreted as where "Winter Fell" (was defeated) but also as where "Winter Fell" (the place where the Long Night was started) and that could mean that we have Lyanna/Nissa Nissa and the original NN down in the Winterfell crypts, that are in the base of the Godswood. Sometimes I think the Blackwoods being exiled have conecction to the Ravens being exiled from the corrupted tree of their sigil.
yeah the Blackwoods are definitely symbolizing this part of the drama, and their potential connection to the north is tantalizing
Starting off great with the old school music 🎶😄
I think the Season actually aren't caused by the magical astronomy and moon stuff. There's this tendency in the history where Winter tends to start right as or right after big wars in Westeros, and tends to end around or shortly after those wars end. I theorize that the Seasons are being controlled in some way by the weirwood net. and after the corruption of the weirwood net, the "natural state" became endless winter, and to keep that from happening people had to make sacrifices to the weirwoods to power them and keep summer going, and the reason wars tend to happen in winter and winter tends to end winter is that the big wars soak lots and lots of blood into the soil (and the weirwood net). Wars starting around the beginning of winter I think is either just a coincidence (lessening of resources as summer is burning out causing pressures leading to war) or there's also an emotional component (either conflict triggering winter or the others triggering both winter and conflict)
Awesome stream. Thank you.
Is it just me, or is the chat being its very best self in this stream? So sorry I missed this live. You and Michael sound like you've been doing this together for ages.
Black and White AKA Fire & Ice moon symbology is one of my favourite topics. I believe there's a lot of dual sword subtext too, relating to a black fire sword battling a white ice sword.
Idea: Shade of the Evening Trees are either exactly the same species as Weirwoods or a related species, they are more corrupted (symbolically dead rather than dying) because of the corruption/destruction of the Fire Moon. The Essosi weirwoods being tethered to the Fire Moon rather than the Ice Moon, and this is the mechanism by which the Land can be tethered to a specific moon in the first place. This could also mean that burning and destroying the weirwood net entirely is actually the solution
interesting notion...
When you say that a comet big enough to shatter the second moon would be a runaway planet, you're presuming that the second moon was the size of the real world one. That's not neccessarily the case: real moons vary in size enormously from small planets to big asteroids. In fact, it's highly unusual for a planet the size of Earth to have a moon the size of ours. If we had a second one, the overwhelming likelihood is that it would be a captured asteroid that was much smaller.
This was a good stream, think you
Hearing about runaway planets just reminds me of Dragonriders of Pern, and the crazy genetically manipulated man-created dragons from that series that jump through dimensions...Man that series is wild.
All this moon magic and no mention of Dragonlance’s three magic moons? One for good mages, one for neutral mages and one for evil mages.
Not a direct parallel, but still a moon magic system.
And nice shoutout to Thundarr, one of my favorite cartoons back in the day.
oh I've never read Dragonlance I didn't know about that! that's a great reference, George would know that series obviously
Felt kinda bad for Michael, it was hard for him to get a word in edgewise with Dave talking over him constantly.
Yeah, I don't think Dave means to, but yeah.
I agree 🙈 I feel like David may have been a bit baked throughout the video 😅 I found myself getting a little frustrated with David for not letting his guest speak openly and freely about his theories and points. Just when I started to follow Michael's point, David jumped in 😢😂
The Weirwoods being the conduit to the magic from the moon, would explain the Others being cast from Weirwoods, like in David's theory, the reason why they build castles with walls protected by magic around the Weirwoods, it also could mean that the Weirwoods were green when both moons were up un the sky, and became corrupted when the other moon got destroyed...love the stream ❤
If shadow binding is a kind of necromancy, and it is the same kind we see done with Beric, then you may both be right about Jon as the Night King. Wights seem to have a remnant of their soul in their body, similar to Beric. So when Jon’s body is snatched a weakened shadow of Jon’s may be called back to run his body for the Others in the same way Beric is not fully himself. We see that Stanis can cast a shadow while his soul remains in his body, so while Jon’s real/pure soul may be in Ghost a version of his angry vengeful self (see Stone Heart) may be controlling his body as the new Night King, which would satisfy both of your narrative predictions.
"like black holes in the sky" is a Pink Floyd lyric. The Dark Side of the Moon, as you know, is a Pink Floyd album.
I think GRRM is having a playful flourish here.
The moon is definitely getting blown up that’s for sure
the stream was a success
Make Dave’s Christmas Merry by hitting LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE to this fabulous content and be sure to leave a comment to help with the algorithm.
Planning to catch this on the rewatch, but currently I'm watching a terrible movie called Moonfall. It's about moon meteors! And Samwell Tarly's in it! Thought you'd get a kick out of that.
Am I the only one who has never clicked on one of David's videos, to only find myself waking up to his videos legit every time they fall asleep listening to random shit. I was listening to a random Desitiny video before this was about to fall asleep and this video autoplayed....
well TH-cam must be trying to improve your politics! From Destiny's morally depraved defense of Is-not-real's gen0cide, to my morally correct position of "free, free P@lestine, and F*CK Is-not-real"
I just saw a reddit post regarding GRRM drafts at the Cushing Library. One of the drafts for AFFC had the black candles granting immortality....probably old news but thought it was really interesting.
Micheal’s vibe is wild.
Hell yeah, thanks bro
Some young people also like king crimson and other older bands
Inhaled both videos. Santa ain’t got ish in you two.
Yeah actual white or rainbow moonstone have inclusions of black tourmaline or other black crystals.
Yeah, the red keep is more so a symbol of Earth, for the color Red or Rubedo is earth element, fire is yellow.
Remember theres not only the golden sun and white moon but also the red moon (comet) & the black sun, the last two being rahu & ketu respectively.
Grateful Dead (Robert Hunter) lyrical link-up of the week . . . Holy Hell, the Night's Watch really is "Standing on the Moon"
Standing on the moon
I see a shadow on the sun
Standing on the moon, the stars go fading one by one
I hear a cry of victory, another of defeat
A scrap of age-old lullaby down some forgotten street
Standing on the moon, where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon, but I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco on a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven at this crescent in the sky
In the sky
Standing on the moon with nothing left to do
A lovely view of heaven but I'd rather be with you
A lovely view of heaven but I'd rather be with you
Be with you
I'd rather be with you
Old intro brings me back
That was fun
I think the pact you speak of is analogous to:
The Baqt (or Bakt) (بقط) was a 7th-century treaty between the Christian state of Makuria and the new Muslim rulers of Egypt. Lasting almost seven hundred years, it is by some measures[which?] the longest-lasting treaty in history. The name comes either from the Egyptian's term for barter, or the Greco-Roman term for pact.
In ASOIAF, I think the pact was made between the first men and the CotF. I think it worked. I think it would have continued to work had the 76 not abandoned their post.
I think the weirwoods were a vast communication network that would have enabled the first men to prevent what the Andals did to the Weirwood trees.
Protecting the Weirwood trees was part of the pact.
I think the 76 abandoning their post is what ended the pact.
The 76 were denied guestright.
I think the way the Starks deny guest right and the way they bury their dead leaders is an allusion to how the pact was broken and a new pact formed with the Starks at Winterfell.
This is why the 76 were nailed to the trees alive with their intestines out and "The Wall" was built. It is also how the walls construction is maintained, the dead make it so cold.
I also think the tree at the construct now known as the Nightfort feeds the dead who are in the wall.
there's nothing about them being nailed to trees, the 79 sentinels, and that's a more recent event
@DavidLightbringer I don't know whether they are sentinenels or weirwoods - either way those trees are in the wall with deadmen nailed to them. (Daenerys did the same.) As for the timeline. Maybe you're right; maybe you are wrong. These events happened a long time ago and it may well be that they are recorded in the wrong order. Maybe the timeline was recorded incorrectly in order to conceal a horrific truth.
Could the second moon have turned into a meteor shower that took out the arm of Dorne?
YES
Im still working my way through the stream(only an hour in so far), but is it thrown out there that the fire moon may simply be the sun?
snow avalanche coming from the moon? like perhaps the moon breaking and a meteor falling on the wall and causing an avalanche (both literal and allowing the others to come south)
I think a parralel to the white and dark moons could be the door to the house of black and white. It's made of weirwood so there is already a connection with the moon through that
Also if Drogon is the black moon in the sky then it would be very fitting that Dany was given a white horse, given to her by her husband by the same name, which is much closer to earth for obvious reasons. It being a horse also neatly connects it to yggdrasil and thus the weirwoods/icemagic while drogon is fire incarnate.
This two moons concept may also be an allusion to the two women of the Night King (Jon, the thirteenth Lord Commander) who we hear about in relation to the Wolf's Den and who Bran (chapter 66 AGoT) tells us is buried in the crypts of Winterfell.
Jon appears to have two moons - Dany Flint and the Night Queen (who is Coldhands).
are you an AI word scramble bot?
@DavidLightbringer Nope. Just a ASOIAF fan.
Ngl, Michael looks kinda like Mikael from Opeth
When people say it's not that deep, you can say yeah - George even revisits themes just because why not, like hardening nipples/fat pink masts.
1:35:00
2:02:00
Was the long night a solar eclipse?
The phases of the moon are the death and reincarnation of the Lich queen as a metaphor for the birth of the others, and all of the other necromancy that we see
The bloodstone Lord, seizing power from the body of the moon maiden doesn’t conflict with this if anything it seems like the iron borne are either claiming responsibility for the hammer of the arm, or got power from the plunder of that act, i.e. the massive piece of oily black stone that they carved into theirl throne
While the dark moon represents necromancy, the silver moon that conceals the dark moon represents illusion and enchantment. That’s part of why the mirror shield is such a potent moon icon
Katelyn and her sister are potentially another metaphor for this connection between the two moons. David mentioned that the street that a straight is an arrow that connects the two hills that represents the two moons is sister Street. This is interesting in the context of Katlyn Stark becoming lady Stonehart and I wonder if in the books there will be some interaction between Lady Stonehartand her sister
Katelyn and her sister are potentially another metaphor for this connection between the two moons. David mentioned that the street that a straight is an arrow that connects the two hills that represents the two moons is sister Street. This is interesting in the context of Katlyn Stark becoming lady Stonehart and I wonder if in the books there will be some interaction between Lady Stonehartand her sister Katelyn, becoming ladies Stonehart would represent the dark moon and necromancy where her sister represents the illusion and enchantment of flying to the entire court about killing her husband and beginning the events of Game of Thrones
F*ck!!
I'm finally in the Cali time zone and my jet lag made me miss my first-ever time catching this live!!!
Wonder if the small one that hatched dragons was a spaceship.
I didn’t know Jeff Baxter was a fan
I commented ro the contrary on Michael's vid earlier, but now I'm leaning more towards the Nox's black moon and Ranni's dark moon are the same moon. Ranni's mom introduced her to that moon. The nox are waiting for their new Lord of Night, the Lunar Princess becomes the Icy God Queen and we become her Lord... of the chill Night. Fair enough. We are Jon Snow.
Could Euron be an icy person hidden some place fiery given his Night King symbolism and Valyrian connections?
My apologies Lord Lightbringer for not responding at once to your calling of your banners but, I ser PatchFace of house Merlin, am at your service 🤟🏿😤
Again. . I'm notified 7 hours after the vid has already aired
Seven poxy hells !
Have you checked your time zone settings? Either in the app or browser
@@merry_morgana
Thanks, I'll check it
:)
I think that Mel will fire resurrect jon, and he will stab her with his valyrian steel sword and make a shadow baby and/or bring on the long night. where stannis "stabbed" mel with his "sword" to birth a shadow baby, jon will do the same, but with a valyrian steel sword like to nissa nissa and cast a much more powerful form of the magic. Jon night's king
10515 yeah jon is literally the prince that was promised because hes born of fire and ice rhaegar and lyanna
For the algorithm 🎉
Does anyone remember where the Brothers Grimm symbolism is?
I have looked in the patchface stream and it was not there.
There is some of that in the Rickon stream. Dave and Tim talk about the 3 Billy Goats Gruff and the Freys
:D
Nice talkin' with you today. Hope you liked it!
I be trying to catch you live and I always be watching these. This one particularly is bouncing into some Elden ring stuff. Brienne came to my mind when watching because she’s kind of like the sun and moon knight to me. Is there a chance the moon caused a tidal wave that became the wall the children or some northern magic stopped the tidal wave? Like a Noah’s arc type event?
Hear me out… if moon magic could pull a moon towards another moon or towards the sun, couldn’t that magic have also put the moon right in front of the sun? Long night could also be an eclipse state
it wouldn't be global tho
@@DavidLightbringerah you’re right
1:12:58 ghost grass from dothraki legend has similar symbolism
Oh man, missed the funk. Excellent groove.
🎉🎉🎉
3:01:58 😁😁😁😁
17:44
Chekhov’s volcano
Why is their any assumption that Azor Ahai is male? Isn't there reason to believe she may have been female? I seem to remember her being called Zhea Zorseface? Doesn't Azor Ahai have to pretend to be a man?
Zhea is not an Azor Ahai name. We have wondered if "the woman with the monkey's tail" that is said to be a Long Night hero in Yi Ti (probably who you're thinking of) might not be Yin Tar, which IS a name for Azor Ahai, but that's speculation
in general i don't assume anything about the ancient figures, because they are likely representative more than literal. in some parallels Azor Ahai is female and Nissa Nissa male, but usually not, and in the myth, NN is female, so that's generally how we talk about them. Arya is a LH figure though and so is Brienne. Brienne has the same symbolism as Jon in a lot of ways
@@DavidLightbringer Zhea was a woman of the Jogos Nhai who chose the life of a male warrior.
🌑🌒🌓🌔🌕🌖🌗🌘🌑
🥺😩 my lord, will no one write the end to this story…. 😢
At 1hr 52mins, there is talk about the Night King. Might it be relevant that the Night King (Jon, 13th Lord Commander) was fathered by Bael the Bard and that Jon killed his Father?
you have several things mixed up here
@DavidLightbringer Maybe. But my reasoning does get to Brandon Ice Eyes (Benjen) being the Great Grandson of the Stark King. I don't mind at all that you think I have things mixed up. That said, I love your work. Keep going man.
George is going to give us an ice dragon by Spring
Im suprised of how cool you two look like, i imagined Michael to look way younger by his voice. Dude looks like frank zappa