I am 71 years old so I was brought up that the .177 was the only "real" airgun. I use a 1377 in my living room where i have a 12 ft range so I don't even have to stand up to shoot. If I were to go out hunting with a pistol I would absolutely use the 1322 instead, I want to get one anyway.
Aint a mousebor rat easier to penetrate that bunch of feathers? Never shot a bird but shot a mouse with 177. And pellet passed though it. Wasn't instant death obviously but shots besides headshots rarely are. Unless you use a real gun because then there's nothing left of it.
Not saying it cannot be done because I have killed dozens but it usually took more than one shot but the .177 on a pigeon is almost inhumane. .22 much nicer with the benjamin 392. One and done every time.
Hey Wingman! I'm all for the 22 cal pellet guns, especially for hunting. Let me tell you about an experience I had while squirrel hunting. I bought my 1st air rifle about 10 years ago. After a lot of searching and comparing I bought an RWS Diana break barrel in 177 cal. Practiced and practiced and got pretty good with it. First time out squirrel hunting I saw 2 greys come across a ravine and jump up on a log about 15 yards in front of me, chewing on nuts. I did it all right. I aimed at one of the the squirrels, squeezed the trigger, and pop! I heard the unmistakable thud when the pellet hit him, and he fell over the back of the log. The other squirrel sat there confused, and I slowly and meticulously broke the barrel of my RWS and loaded another pellet and drew down on the 2nd grey. Pop, then another unmistakable thud as the pellet hit him and knocked him over the back of the log. I waited about 10 minutes, to give them time to bleed out. When walked up to the log and slowly looked over the log, one of the squirrels looked up at me, took off running, then ran up a tree about 40 yards away, and about 20 foot up the tree went into a hole! After a few choice words, I looked over the log again and the other grey looked up at me, took off running, ran up the same tree and went into the same hole the 1st squirrel went into! Again a few choice words! I went home and the next week, sold my 177, bought a Benjamin Marauder in 22 cal, and haven't looked back! I do have a couple of 177's but they are collectors air guns only! Only the 22 cal for me, for hunting anyway! Thanks for your time. John from Cedar Rapids, IA.
Years ago, tried experimenting with 177 on the trapline (hoping to lessen pelt damage). Field experience dictates strongly to me that the .22 is the thing for animal harvesting.
I started out with 177 for the inexpensive ammo available and flat trajectory. I also love to punch paper and at that time thought little in the way of pest control. I now live outside the city and recently purchased a 22 and wow what a difference when it comes to knock down power. I don't believe I waited this long, so bottom line is get both. I like the 177 for teaching and target work and 22 although can be used for those things I prefer to use them in the field.
I'm a .22 fan boy. love the .22 for target, plinking and hunting. I do have one .177 rifle and a few .177 pistols, but I always prefer my .22. I think it's a generation thing, I've grown up with .22 rifles.
I use both calibres. I used to prefer the .22 but decided a few years back to balance out and get into .177 too. They're very similar in effectiveness against small game, but refreshingly different in terms of accuracy and velocity.
I am a 177 fan.. All things being equal the 177 steps out ahead... the only advantage a 22 has is at closer ranges with blunt force trauma, however a pass through the heart or brain with a 177 still is a kill... a 177 starts to show its strengths at distances beyond 20 yards... All things have terminal velocity and the 22 will reach terminal velocity sooner thus it will slow down quicker and loose more energy the further the distance gets... For example shooting a 16 grain from both the 177 and 22 the muzzle energy and velocity will be almost identical however at 50 yards the 177 will be going fast and retain more energy... The flatter shooting will also mean less misses because of misjudged distances.. Also the 177 requires less energy to penetrate so at distances if it is going fast and retaining more energy then it will penetrate much easier and way deeper... shooting small pigs could extend your killing distance to a greater distance because it could penetrate the skull easier and get into the brain. It takes less force to drive a 10 penny nail than a spike... If you are going to go ratting at 10 to 15 yards then fine the 22 will blast the hell out of them but for long shots on jack rabbits, coon, smaller ferrule pigs then the 177 will have a higher velocity and more energy and penetrate easier and deeper and shoot flatter... And in reality you may also find that some lighter bullets in 177 will deliver way more energy than heaver 22 caliber at longer ranges... Physics and terminal velocity do not lie... If you took a 16 grain 177 and 16 grain 22 and dropped them out of an airplane the 177 would hit the ground sooner because the 22 will reach terminal velocity sooner and not be able to increase its speed and slow down much sooner than the 177... You can see this in action by taking two balloons and blow one up and leave the other unblown and drop them both at the same time and the unblown balloon will hit the ground sooner because the one that is blown up hit terminal velocity and can't go any faster toward the ground... everything drops at 32 feet per second and increased by that same amount for each second until terminal velocity is reached and it cant' go any faster because of the resistance of air.. so the first second it will drop 32 feet the next second it will drop and additional 64 feet and the next second it will drop and additional 96 feet and continue until it can't go any faster... that is its terminal velocity, when the body in motion is slowed down because of the air resistance... a larger diameter bullet of equal weight and design will slow down more and quicker than a smaller diameter bullet... thus it will have less velocity, less energy retention and less penetrating properties.. so a 177 will best a 22 at any distance... And who shoots anything at muzzle... so even at close range the 177 will still kill just as effectively, you may get more pass through and not blow a rat half way across the yard but the rat is still dead with his heart or brain torn to shreds... and you won't break every bone in his body but he is still dead... So if you are not a good shot then keep your distances close and use a 22 if you are a half way decent shot then use a 177 for all distances... and you will kill game at further distances... and also have less misses attributed to a flatter trajectory with misjudged distances... You can't cheat science no matter how much you want to..
Jim Richard I respect what you're trying to say but you're way off... all pellets leave the muzzle at their maximum velocity... they don't increase as they go farther. Being dropped from a plane and being shot from a barrel are two completely different things. The .22 will always retain more energy down range because it's heavier plain and simple. It takes more velocity for a .177 to reach the energy of a .22. Will it shoot flatter yes if you're comparing them with their energy. But if you shoot both a .177 and .22 at 900fps the .177 will lose energy quicker because it will lose velocity quicker then a heavier pellet. And finally a .177 will over penetrate more than a .22 because it has less surface area. When it comes to air guns you want most of the energy to transfer on your quarry. .22 may penetrate less, at certain velocities, but will create a bigger cavity for a quicker dispatch.
Same rifle only different cal. .177 cal with JSB 13,43 has muzzle velocity of 807 and fpe of 19, and 50 yards downrange it has 607 velocity and 11 fpe. on the other hand a .22 with JSB Express 14.30 grains has a muzzle velocity of 708 and fpe of 16 and downrange to 50 yards it has 547 for velocity and 10 fpe... If the 177 shoots an equal weight bullet of the same design it will travel fast and hit harder than the .22 because there is less wind resistance and the .22 slows down too quickly.... obviously if you shoot a .177 with 7 grains vs the .22 with 18 grains then the .22 will have more energy but that is not comparing apples with apples... but if you shoot similar weight pellets then the .177 will dominate and also penetrate deeper and easier because of the smaller diameter and at 50 yards they claim that it takes the .22 an extra 3 to 4 foot pound to equal the penetrating properties of the .177, again smaller diameter will penetrate easier and deeper if the weight of the bullet is about equal... In order to leave the energy in your game is only a matter of bullet type... pointed vs round nose vs hollow point... .177 also has many more variety of pellet weights and styles than are offered with the .22... If you can't penetrate and reach the vitals then you only wound an animal.. so which one of equal weight will bust through skull and other bones easier - .177... They claim that it takes only 5 fpe to kill a rabbit with good shot placement that means that the .177 can dispatch a rabbit at around 135 yards with a pellet weighing around 13 to 14 grains, because at that range it has 5 fpe... and the .22 with 14-15 grain pellet, at that 135 yards only has about 3 to 4 fpe (and it may not penetrate properly to get into the vitals)... You may also want to consider trajectory, the .177 shoots much flatter than the .22 of equal weight bullets which means you could miss a shot because of misjudged distances with a .22 and with a .177 that is not such a critical issue... A .177 can break 1 inch disc at 20,30,40 yards (about the size of a rabbits heart), where as the .22 will break the 20 and 40 and shoot right over the 30 yard one... because of its bell shaped trajectory... a miss is a miss is a miss... no matter if you tried to shoot it with a tank... Each to his own and if you like the .22 them by all means use one but I prefer the .177 because of all the benefits and also it extends your kill range from 5-10 yards over a .22... This same argument went on years ago with the 270 vs the 30-06, and we all know how that turned out... the 30-06 had more energy and shock at closer ranges but at longer distances the 270 showed it's dominance... and also at close ranges the 270 had more than adequate energy (even though the 30-06 had more)... But if you paired the 270 with 140 grains and the 30-06 with 150 grains then the 270 was very close to the same energy at close ranges but again showed it's true colors when the distances were stretched to 400 and 500 yards... So there ya have it... I will stick with .177 all day... Which would you want to get hit with, a golf ball or a softball if they were thrown with the same amount of force... I think the golf ball would hurt a great deal more... and the golf ball will travel further and slow down less than the softball..
Jim Richard the .270 shined because it has a better ballistic coefficient, better ballistic coefficient better down range energy because the BC makes a bullet retain its velocity better at long distance. But you can't compare pellets to bullets they're apples vs oranges. With pellets, the shape and weight affects its BC typically round nose pellets have a better BC and a heavier pellets increases it. A .22 jsb has a better bc than a .177 jsb period. Of course if you shoot these two caliber from the same power platform the .177 will shine no doubt about it. I prefer the .22 because I don't shoot em from low powered airguns, each caliber is restricted to a certain energy and a heavier .22 shot at 900fps will have way more energy then a .177 shot at 900fps, more energy, more damage, more penetration etc.. bigger is better when it comes to pellets. A .25 will outperform a .22 in every way as well
Jim Richard you don't want to dispatch a rabbit with the minimal power it takes to take one out. At 135 yd what's the chance you'll actually hit it? Let's talk realistically here not numbers. Even for my $1300 .22 I would never take a shot at a rabbit past 100 yd
Wingman115 And a few big bores for the more difficult targets! I'm testing out my homemade .50cal pcp rifle tomorrow, will have a video up on it very soon!
With either one - I would put a shoulder stock on them (and a scope). You just can't hold it steady enough as a pistol. You can't go wrong with either one! As with ANY hunting situation, shot placement is the key!
I use the airgun for pest control around the house and property. When you think about that there is no better way to go than .22 calibre. The one thing you don't want to happen is to cause the pest to suffer from pain. With .22 calibre it's one shot and goodnight Irene. Also, you don't want to have that injured animal to scamper off into your drywall and dying, only for you to have to tear apart a wall to get to the critter and chase again. There is nothing worse than the smell of a dead mouse in your house.
Yeah i shot a mouse with 177. Pointy pellet and it took about 30sec for the mouse to die. After the hit it wasn't able to run anymore but it could take minutes for it to die depending where you hit. My pellet hit the longs and passed through so it bled a bit though its nose but still 30 sec probably is quite quick. Air rifle with scope probably would be ideal so you can shoot more vital spots. 22. Is definately better for pest control and causes less suffering but still probably not instant death but that's just how it is. Cat had fun with a dead mouse after outside at least.
@@damnsonwheredyoufindthis.3830 Would also suspect a bit more thump with a bit less pass through with the slower 22. Bout like comparing a 9mm vs 45ACP
.177 my whole life since I was a boy (I’m 48 now) but recently discovered the Crosman 2240 CO2 pistol and am now hooked on .22 caliber! All calibers have their place. 22 is a great all-rounder, though.
Wingman, I think that one advantage that the .177 size has over .22 is that you can fire pellets AND BBs. I don't have a preference, but I'd like to try a .22. The more mass pellet has, the better stopping power at close range, perfect for varmints and other targets. It goes without saying, of course, that a .22 carbine or rifle trumps them all!
177. Better penetration. Flatter trajectory. Cheaper ammo. More options because if you shoot a 177 hollow point it is like a 22 cal and you can shoot a heavy pellet which means good penetration and less fpe loss due to less surface area. Doesn't get bucked in the wind as much too. Am I right on that one? Less surface area less like a kite? Why is a 22 better? Over all poundage because Pcp s are more efficient shooting heavy and big pellets... I think. That's the only thing. A little more accuracy from the ability of not having to shoot a hollow point. But I think the trajectory factor outweighs this. Let's hear yours.
I'm a reloader and cast bullet fan, I also have two air rifles in my collection. I've always been a fan of heavy bullets because they simply hit harder. This man is right for going to the .22 caliber. In my inventory, I have a Gamo Hunter extreme and a Benjamin Nitro Trail both in .22.
Thanks John for the review. I have two of these and both in .177. I've killed several ground squirls with them and ate many woks of stir-fry of sparrow. I put the carbine stocks on both. One with a scope other with the add on steel breech and upgrade iron sight. Am now leaning toward the 0.22 cal. and think I need a couple more in this caliber. Great survival gun that is quite and will put small game in the pot. The lower you can live on the food chain, the greater will be your chances of survival. Long after the elk and deer have been shot, the small game will still remain.
I'd go for the .177 now but I used to shoot nothing but .22's before and they are deadly at shorter ranges. I've grown older now and not a very effective stalker anymore so i'll shoot from longer distances with optics..great videos...
We have a 12ft/lbs limit on air rifles here in the UK - any more than that and you have to go through all the faff of a Firearms Certificate, signatures, verifications, photographs, lockable security, inspections by police officers (who don't necessarily understand what they're looking at), plus restrictions on where you can use them. I stick to 12ft/lbs guns and I know my pellet is going to deliver bags of energy when it gets to where it's going, the difference being that the .177 pellet travels faster than the .22 and therefore has a flatter trajectory. So when I'm taking shots at a variety of distances and I'm in the field so I don't have the luxury to keep taking out my rangefinder and consulting drop tables, the .177 is my calibre of choice every time. The bunnies aren't so keen on it though...
A pellet rifle or pistol is great to keep your shooting skills sharp. I have pistols and rifles in both calibers. Both require proper pellet placement. For distance I would go with the 177. For larger game, I would use the 22. I cant really say which is better as both have taken a bunch of game and pests. Saving up for my next rifle, a 25 caliber springer. Should be interesting.
I replaced my Crosman 760 with a new Daisy 880 and Love it. Of course it's .177, but I have a Beeman break barrel in .22 to cover that end. I know that the "10 pump limit" is nearly scripture but after having a conversation with the Daisy Technicians I was assured that more than 10 pumps would indeed increase power and not harm the weapon in any way. They said the danger was in pumping it and leaving it for a period of time, say overnight. They said they wouldn't go crazy and go more than 30 pumps but 20 and up to 30 is no problem. That being said, since I don't have a Chrony I have to just deal with results. Those being; my beeman is a dual caliber so I can swap from .22 to .177. My beeman will put a .177 10.5 gr. Gamo heavy halfway through a one inch board at 30 feet. My daisy at 10 pumps just over a quarter inch. At 20 pumps the daisy will put that same pellet through the board. I can also get a dime sized group from that Daisy at 50 feet. So, like you said it's about the use. For me a lightweight but very hard hitting .177 is great for hunting on the stalk because the range drops off so quick. A .22 is great for blind or fixed hunting where you can stay in position and reach out 50 - 70 yards effectively. If you have the power - like this Daisy does - 50 feet or closer the calibers are almost irrelevant (though quarry size is a real factor). Of course, one needs to do their due diligence and find the right pellet for their gun or it's a moot point. Cause you know as well as I that airguns have an attitude about the pellets they like :-) PCPs are a horse of another color however.
I was raised on .177 pellet guns as a child, I typically would be able to shoot them fairly accurately but I felt it was always lacking knock down power. I am happy to report I am totally switching to .22 pellets. I have completely revamped my air gun arsenal, and for starters I purchased the crosman 1322 pistol. I have a crush on a Kral Arms .22 puncher breaker . (I just need to justify the cost) thanks for the video.
177 for me. Im a target shooter, don't hunt other than the occasional nuisance rodents (even a bb going anything over 500fps put right behind a rat's eye will usually go right through its head killing it instantly. Though i prefer pellets for that use) so knock-down power isn't really a pressing concern for me. So for (both guns and ammo) the price, availability and that pinpoint accuracy I don't seem to get with .22 I go .177. Oh and for some guns the ability to go pellet or bb is a nice option.
when i was a kid i had a .177 spring rifle and i've hunt a lot with it .22 were scarce. so i was a big fan of .177. Later on my 30's i got some .22 and i liked it very much, but at that time i wasn't a hunter any more. Nowadays in my 60's weapon laws are so restrictive in my country (Spain) they have spoil all the fun of air guns, can't hunt with an air rifle, can't shoot anywhere but in a range facility, and the most powerful airguns are cut down to a maximum 24 joules (17.7 foot-pound)
I was going to add, that on Pigman's channel he has a vid of him taking a wild pig with a gamo silent cat (I believe) using only a .177 pellet. Shot placement really is the Golden Rule. I Love your channel, man. Keep it up ad I'll keep coming back :-) And I'm a sucker for airgun stuff :-)
.177 makes more sense for pistols since pistols are fairly weak and are meant for shooting planks instead of hunting. The flatter trajectory with a .177 pellet is more forgiving when trying to be accurate. If you really want to hunt game, then a rifle that fires either .177 or .22 pellets would be much more logical than a pistol that fires .22 pellets. So I feel the 1322 is more niche as it doesn't beat the 1377 in terms of accuracy and it doesn't beat a rifle for hunting; It's kinda stuck some where in between.
I have both 22 and 177 and I prefer the 177. it shoots faster and further. seems to be more accurate. the 22 is good for close range but the 177 wins on distance.
I really like both, each for their own purpose really, the .177 is nicer in my opinion to punch small holes in paper. Most importantly for me is perhaps that if I have guests over its really simple to explain to them "only shoot the reactive targets on the right side with the .177". They will easily hold up to my old break barrel, crosman 1377, crosman 1077, etc. Most will even handle the Weihrauch HW35 in that caliber. However those targets will certainly get wrecked pretty fast when shooting them repeatedly with the Weihrauch HW97k, gamo coyote or benjamin marauder pistol in .22 cal. Fortunately I do have a few more robust targets beyond just paper set up on the left side that can handle everything I've thrown at it so far with only minor maintenance being needed. For active hunting I suppose I would be inclined towards a .22 or .25 PCP or if I want a self contained powerplant an underlever spring .22 rifle like the HW97K. However hunting laws are pretty restrictive here, not allowed with airguns and you have to apply for a hunting permit and go through some more hassles for the guns and permission to hunt in certain areas etc. If I had to though I'm fairly confident I could get the pellet to land on target, been doing enough outdoor shooting with various wind conditions varying from short to a decent 50-60 meters regularly. Judging the distance reliably and fast in an unknown area is a skill that'd be sorely lacking though since I usually use the same place for that and know how far all the objects are apart (markers along the wall every 5 meters for my own convenience). Of all things getting that down might just be the hardest one, ofcourse I suppose I could cheat with a laser rangefinder. It might be an excessive collection just for punching holes in paper and shooting more interesting targets that do something, but I've found that its a good way to relax after having thought way too much about stuff during the day at work. And at the same time get a little bit of light physical activity done rather than sit at the couch watching tv after being stuck at the desk all day at work.
I love squab. When local farmers found out about this, they asked me to come into their barns are reduce the population that was eating their feed. On saturday nights I made the rounds of the barns with my crossman 1377. I used BBs instead of pellets and maybe 3 or 4 pumps. I didn't want to put holes in the barn roofs. The barns were dark so I hunted with a flashlight. It didn't matter how old they were, my wife cooked the in a pressure cooker for a short time, then stuffed them and baked them. They were tender. The sad part was that as the farmers got older, they sold the farms for housing tracks and I lost my hunting grounds.
I have a .177 in that same pistol you have. Didn’t like it much until I modified it into a short riffle, lol. I also have a .177 in a 1200fps and 1650fps and the power of that Gamo Magnum was most surprising UNTIL... .50 Umarex Hammer baby! I waited my butt off on the waiting list for this work of air gun art for weeks!Amazing.... Air gun are the future at this rate of excitement!
they both have a place. mice, rats, squirrel I like .177 for flat trajectory and accuracy. for racoon and such I like 22 for energy down range. I'm actually relatively new (6 years) for the .22. I grew up with the red Rider and the 1377 and have used both since. can't beat the red rider for a wake up when the horses are actin up.
My .22 gives good results with lead round ball as well. If hunting, I strongly suggest that .22 cal. Tried using a .177 as a trapline tool once and was badly disappointed.
.22 and up. Hatsans .22 bullboss puts out 38 foot pounds of energy and there .25 is around 45 foot pounds of energy. Bigger heavier pellet from a powerful gun results in longer range and the critter is gone almost instantly upon impact. 177 is strictly for small critters at close range and is for very precise shooters. Great for plinking. May work for some but not on my ammunition list. 22 and up for me.
A real difference is whether you want kinetic energy or penetration. I cant make any comments on a .22 because I haven't used one. A point everyone is making is that the .177 is more affordable and easier to find, which is true. You can also get some heavier pellets for the .177, or even super penetrators if thats what you want. Lots of different things you can shoot from a .177 which is awesome.
I hunt rabbits and use a 177 solely because the pellet travels flatter and further thus the need for less hold over at longer distances. My shots are very consistent and very accurate thus perfect head shots always guaranteeing a clean kill . I also use a 22 lr rimfire for winter as there is les less foliage to hide , 177 in summer, this gives me the ability to stalk my Quarry and bring the hunter instincts out , Back on the topic I also have a 22 air rifle and use this less, I do agree that it has a harder punch but but it seems to run out of steam and spits the pellet out a bit cumbersome compared to 177, this sead I live in the UK our limited laws to sub 12ftb may be the answer for low performance. 177 seems faster , flatter and a further performance caliber for me . Hope this helps my friend on the outside of the pond . God bless America
I shoot both hunting yes .22 but accuracy on .177 can off set. I have 50/50 but I have kille dchocks with 177 but you are correct .22 is more forgiving.
I own a few 177 springers and I got my 1322 about 1 year ago and is a awesome platform. I just disagree about pellet cost- we know we get different groupings with different pellets because the barrel chooses the pellet so if you have 2 airguns in .22 you still may need one type of pellet to each gun. For hunting, .22 is just better at small and mid ranges, .177 is better for long ranges, you know why :)
Late to the video, just found it. I’m 57 years old and haven’t been involved with air rifles since I was a teenager and all I had back then were a Daisy 105 (looks like the Buck), a Marksman 1911 repeater pistol, and a Crosman 781. Never heard of a .22 air rifle until a couple years ago but would’ve loved to have had one as a kid. I thought the 781 didn’t work anymore since it had been setting up in my parent’s house for about 40 years but after a couple drops of 3 and 1 oil (didn’t have any Pellgun oil) and a few cycles it started holding a compression and shooting BBs pretty accurately about fifty feet. I’ll replace the O-rings eventually. The other two were long gone to air rifle heaven from being completely worn out. I’ve recently started getting back into air rifles and man have those prices gone through the roof. So far I got all new Daisy Buck, Youth Red Ryder, and 880 Powerline. I also have them all their own soft rifle case that fits including the Buck which really surprised me but it’s made by Allen for short barrel shotguns but it fit the Buck perfectly. I plan on buying a few more from Crosman and the Adult Red Ryder Carbine before I get into the more expensive models that cost almost as much as my real firearms. As for my favorite, 177 or 22, I will have to say the 177 because you can shoot BBs also which are cheaper than pellets. They’re both for plinking and I’ll use my real guns for everything else of a serious nature.
I got my gamo pcp in .177 that shoots 1900 FPS+ and my .22 Remington break barrel that shoots around 1200, both do a amazing job with varments. But with the .177 I can shoot 100+ yards confidently while I’m still getting used to the .22
I got a 177 crosman pump pistol.paid 349 $ for it.but i live in New Zealand...ammo 20-30 $ a tin.I think thats really expensive? But it was worth it,i love it.great vid bro😊
First off, great to see a newer vid from you again, regarding our favorite little toy. Secondly, TBH I use both calibers almost on an equal basis and enjoy both calibers for what they're good at. For pest control I use the 1322 with carbine shoulder stock, and to keep my pistol skills from degrading I use the now discontinued Benjamin HB17 in .177 or 4.5mm. So to sum up, for pest control, no question... 5.5mm or .22 cal - and for fun and target practice you can't do better than the affordable 4.5mm or .177 cal
I think that the proper caliber often depends on how powerful your gun is. .177 tends to be better in lower powered guns but often looses accuracy in high powered or supersonic guns. The .22 often under penetrates with low powered guns but hits hard and keeps it's accuracy, especially at long range, with the high powered rifles.
I do alot of shooting in .177 but I'm in the process of trying the .22 . That is why I have bought a FX Impact . I originally got it in .177 and love it . No ground squirrel , red squirrel , fox squirrel , gray squirrel , woodchuck , rat coon , crow , fly is safe out to 50 yrds . Yes I sead fly ! These guns are extremely accurate . But now I have bought a .22 barrel fir it because I would like to reach out a little further . I see some people hitting pidgins out to 360 yrds . One gentleman hit a spray can out at 430 yrds with a .22 slug out of the impact . So I thought I would try it . If I decide I need bigger I can get barrels in .25 , .30 , and .35 calibers with a option to buy an adapter to shoot arrows . Its a hole armoury in one . In .177 cal i get about 200+ shots before i have to pump it up in .22 - 120+ consistent shots . Love this riffle . "Deeds nit words "
thank you for the great video, as of right now im shooting .177, after seeing your video im going to have get a .22 as well my wife and i are just getting into the sport of air guns, we plan on teaching our kids
I'm a .177 guy. I grew up using this round for plinking. When I started hurting I went to.22 then I learned how to diesel a round. Of course I don't do this with my Benjamin but I'll do it with my Crossman. I've shot squirrels this way and almost ripped them in half, especially with a ballistic tip round. I know this is not the response you were looking for but I love the topic of air guns. Great video!
Personally, I like them both. Using the .177 is fun because there is precision involved with the shot. It makes it more of a challenge. Using the .22 is just as fun because even though it has more heft to it, skill is still required in acquiring that good placement shot to ensure that the critter goes down quickly and humanely. Thank you fit the video. Always enjoy your enthusiasm in the video. Cheers.
.22 for most small game hunting is the way to go. .177 is fine for head shots on small pest birds and chipmunks at close range.AA 410 FAC .22Browning mag pistol .22Crosman 1322 backpacker with steal breach kit / scope .22Crosman T4 .177
Yeah I’ve had that happen. I have zero interest in dungeons and dragons. Never once searched it online. Was talking on the phone with my retired dad, he has some friend who is into it so he was going to try it out. What do I see on my phone 2 hours later… ad for dungeons and dragons. Creepy google is listening lol
Been shooting air guns for 25 years. I've owned over 100 different pistols and rifles but I've never had a .22 cal until just last week I decided to buy one. Picked up the Ruger impact max for $150 and was instantly love at first shot.... I gotta say, I love the knockdown power. I am now a fan of the .22 cal and believe it will be my first choice from now on.
I also have both pistols, but I have built my main air gun system around .22 caliber pellets. My .22 caliber small game hunting battery consists of the Crosman 1322 pistol with the carbine stock, the Benjamin 392 multi pump rifle, and the Umarex Octane nitro piston break barrel air rifle. I have scopes on both the Benjamin 392 and the Umarex Octane. As for my .177 caliber guns, I have the Crosman 1377 pistol paired with the Beeman RS1 .177 caliber break barrel springer rifle scoped with 4x32 scope. I use the .177 caliber air guns for plinking, and the .22 caliber air guns for small game hunting. My .22 caliber air guns have taken ground squirrels, rabbits, possums, skunks, raccoons, and turkeys. I am looking into getting a .22 caliber Crosman Marauder for my first PCP air rifle.
In a Crosman 13xx, the .22 is the way to go. More energy from the same power plant, and not much less velocity. (though both are marginal on squirrels) In general, I've found that in a suburban back yard, .177 is only ever inadequate on raccoon sized varmints. Even then, a good head shot at 12-15 FPE will put them down. Anything smaller easily falls to a well-placed .177, even with chest shots. Just look for at least 10 FPE. +1 on these being good introductory airguns. The shoulder stocks are cheap enough that they can be cut down and modded to fit youngsters without a big hit to the wallet. BTW, I have a Hammerli 850 also, but mine's in .22 and modded for high pressure air, with a regulated tank. It shoots 14.3 gr. JSBs @ 940 fps, for 28 FPE; 80 shots to a fill. This is the latest thing now, Gamo is introducing a similarly set up gun from the factory like this for $300. Look into the Hammerli 850 forum on network 54 to see how to get yours on HPA and save a mint on CO2 in the long run. Thanks for the vids.
Loved seeing a Air Gun video! I own both calibers of the pumpers in the video & enjoy them both alot. My .177 is my target gun, both paper & spinners. My .22 is the tree rat eliminator in my backyard. BOTH are very quiet & very accurate to about 12 yards for me. I also have a modified 2240 that does both target & hunting duty VERY well. Thanks again for the Air Gun video Wingman115!
I have .177 air rifles. They’ve brought down ground hogs. But shot placement is pretty important and so is ammo selection. I wish I had gone with .22 air guns. I wish the .177 packed a little more punch. But they still hit hard.
you asked for opinion why you/me/us all like .22 or .177 ....ok here we go i am from germany and we have pretty strict gun laws , you can buy an airgun " free " when its muzzle energy is less than 7,5 j ..thats about roughly 5,5 foot pound...or 175 m/s which is about 575 fps ....if you want to stay in the legal limits , ..you can imagine what " average " trajectory you get in an air rifle in .177 and what " under average " trajectory in .22 ......no need to talk about .25 ..... so there are some reasons to go with .177 . - cheap ....the cheapest pellets are about 3 Euro / tin of 500 ...which is about 3 dollar and about 15 or 20 cent actual - flatest trajectory in " legal " limits - highest variety of pellets - 10 meter match.............intl. standard match so away from the match .....let me tell you something about my air rifles i own - diana 48 bought used in a pretty bad shape , tuned with a custom "oiled wood " style stock , new seals , new spring , utg droop compensator rail , medium rings and swfa ss 16x 42 scope .....pretty nice gun , shoots well , is a lot of fun because it has a lot of recoil ( pg2 tune) and the pretty old awfull trigger ( i am looking forward to change to a t06 system ) ..sometimes i hate it to shoot .But is demanding ....so i pretty much like it for that ! - FWB 601 ( Feinwerkbau ) a former Recoilles precompression match rifle , it is like a single shot pcp with less power , due to match regulations it has exact 7,5 j and i measured it on 10 shots with a non noticable deviation , if you put in in a gun vise and use wadcutters at 10 meter , you have basicly ONE hole in the diameter of the wadcutter ! it is field target converted with a falcon 5-25x 50 ffp side focus on it , and with H&N field target trophy 4,51 0,56 g pellets at 50 m ( 55yard) it shoots group ( in a vise ) less than 10 mm - weihrauch hw 80 ( beeman r1 ) ...mostly standard except for a 3-9x42 scope .....going to sell . a friend of me uses a weihrauch hw 97k in .25 with 7.5 j standard spring , he was " blinded " by the heavy pellet and the theoretical stability and knockdown power . my holdover at 50 meters with the fwb ( 30m zeroed ) is about 3,2-3,5 mils or about 17 cm.....and it hits ( kneeling or prone ) consistant targets in 10-15 mm ( about 1/2 inch ) the 25 is zeroed at 30 m too and his holdover is more than 1 meter ! a hit is almost coincident . his pellets land 2meter in front or 3 meters behind the target ( usualy standing bottle caps on a magnetic plate ) so ...i dont go for a hunt or shoot at animals at all ...i like the .177 for plinking more for " extreme " long range shooting ( 75 m or more ) the .177 is not the best , because it looses so much speed , but you need at least 12 foot pound of energy in a 22 to have an advantage for longer ranges , so if you want to stay legal ....no way if you have more power in a 22 , its ( for me ) wasted energy for plinking , target shooting or field target . more power in a .177 gives you the opportunity to get a flat trajetory and stay safely subsonic with heavier pellets for stability . regards , eddie
If you are going after game I think a .22 is the way to go. Twice the weight and almost as fast. If you're just paper punching then it doesn't matter, but if it's part of your stuff hitting the fan prep, you want to step up to the .22.
Its all depends on the fps if you got a 700+ fps 22 airgun its gonna be better then a 1000 fps 177 airgun. If you have a weaker 22 such as the crossman it would not have the same devistating effect as a higher velocity 177.
i have them all in 1 rifle, i can change from 22cal to 177cal, or the other way around in less than 10 seconds, while on the field hunting, i have a 22cal barrel and 177cal barrel that i can attach and detach very quickly, very handy rifle, its called the beeMan Silver Kodiak X2,
Your a good ambassador for shooting Wingman, Here in the UK I like .177 because it teaches you to make the shot count by being very accurate, and the flatter trajectory can take some guess work out of judging distance. after all a pellet through the brain or heart/lung means dead cleanly in any calibre but more skill is involved generally using .177. atb phil and I like the cut of your jib lol subscribed.
What about farther?? The .22 cal maximum range is 50 yards it is just too heavy vs the .177 cal maximum range of 400 yards so definitely the .177 is the best option.
.22 cal fanboi all the way... i own a beeman kodiak (springer) .177, a crosman 357 pistol .177(co2), and a crosman phantom .22 cal. and just as u said, .177 cal u have to be spot on with small game, but .22 has way more stopping power. and mods for any are rather simple. both my beeman and crosman were regulated at 495 fps, and my 357 pistol regulated at 450 fps. with a few easy tweeks i got my .22 cal phantom up to 680+ fps with normal lead pellets, by stretching the main spring, adding a little power spacer at the back of the spring and using high velocity pellets i have succeeded in over 750 fps with this cheep Chinese rifle. as for accuracy, its ok, still get the occasional flyers but still shoot a 10 shot grouping of a quarter size. now there is a few dozen squirrels and near 4 times as many crows less to pester me and rob my gardens. funniest thing is, i bought my .22 from walmart months before they stopped selling them here in canada, so now im lost to where i can replace the spring for a stronger one without so many hassles like customs at the border as for i cannot find a canadian outlet for spring rifles
I live in Illinois where air guns are regulated. 177 is cash and carry but 22 is treated like a fire arm. it stinks, but we are stuck. FYI I DON'T live in Chicago.
Same here. Also they require a foid for .177 over 700 fps. I've heard some stores don't ask for a foid afterall airguns aren't registered so idk. I'm sure online vendors would still ship to your house though. Going to try that.
I standardized on the .177. Found a used Daisy 880 for $20 and a used Gamo Bone Collector for $50. They both prefer the same pellet and I stocked up on them when a tin of 500 was $4. Last month I bought a Crosman M4-177 and I just ordered a Benjamin Trail NP pistol. Now I am reconsidering cancelling that order and getting a .22 rifle instead.
Back in the day .177 was standard because it was compatible with bb guns, while .22 pellets were a weird niche primarily for hunting. The pellets were harder to find in stock and there wasn't as much variety. The argument was "why don't you just use a real .22 if you are hunting?" Times have changed, and a .22 pellet is now a great option for backyard pest control where a .22 rifle or pistol might attract unwanted attention (even a .22 short or cci quiet). Many good pellet guns are chambered in .22, they aren't fundamentally more expensive than a .177, and the ammo isn't either. 22 is also more satisfying when shooting cans and frangible targets, and is less likely to blow around in the wind esp at higher velocities. Basically the only advantage I see to .177 pellets is if you also shoot bb guns, or really value velocity over everything else.
I chose the .22 caliber because the wind does not effect its trajectory like the .177 and it's so much easier to spot the hole on the target because it's a bigger pellet. I bought a Cross-man 1322 pump pistol and also the canister type about five years ago at about 60 dollars each when the .22 bullets were hard to find and its price was not worth buying. I love these two airguns and use them on a daily basis. It's cheaper than live ammo that's for sure and I shoot until I get tired of shooting, who can say that? I can.
You are correct about the ammo prices. The prices Wingman115 was quoting for pellets used to be the price for a bulk box of 500 22 LR rounds. So it also sux that 500 pellets alone cost $10-12 and that is for standard designs, when you get into the newer offerings those prices climb as well.
There is no better, depends on how and what your using it for, like pretty much everything. Never listen to anyone who says one is better period, as there are many factors they may not encounter that you might. The best is the one that works best for you with what your needing it to do.
I would take the 22 but what I would really like to see is someone make these things more balanced. I bought one from walmart a while back but it was so ridiculously unbalanced and impossible to be consistently accurate with I returned it and bought a ruger air riffle instead.
IDK, if you aren't really weak the balance and it's effects on accuracy is not a problem. The 13xx airguns are not very heavy and they are used accurately by many people including some kids. A technique to shoot accurately for those with weak wrists may be rested (for target practice) or two handed if no rest is available (for hunting). My Grand-kids over 10 years old and I don't find it impossible or even difficult at all to shoot it even if they need help to pump it!
I am 60 & just got n 2 air guns . 2 months ago a lady friend gave me back a bb gun I gave her 4 her 14 year old grand child ( she had it only 3 weeks ) . So now I'm stuck with it . I've used it & like it . So I got a 177 pellet gun . I like it becouse ( 177 r cheaper than 22 pellets plus u can carry more ) It makes me take every shot seriously . Fun n d woods . Just let me c a SNAKE WOOOO . 😂😂😂❤❤❤😂
Thank you so much for posting this video. This is exactly 100% what I wanted to see. Was deciding between these exact two models that both sell for the same price. You covered every question I had. Awesome review! Thank you very much
It seems the availability of so many differing pellets on the market has given the 177 more credibility. I have a very powerful .177 air rifle that was not very expensive as a refurb. It reminds me of a .22 I used to have as a teen ager. Close range into a 2x4 it sunk in 3/4 of an inch! Oh well so many opinions have confused the issue in my mind. The low cost of .177 has me in that pocket. I may think more about .22 pistol after all this chatter.Seems easier in close quarters to rid larger varmints. May be more fun too. So off to find a good sale!
.177 cheap easy to get hands on high velocity good power never shot a 22 because I can't find any in my local stores and can't even find pellets to them anywhere.
I have the same issue; every store near me only carries .177 (a good variety of different types), copper BBs, or plastic 6mm airsoft BBs. Seems like the market for .22 pellets is practically non-existent here, and it seems silly to pay for online shipping when the shipping fee increases the cost by 1.5x. Also, Amazon won't even ship either of those pistols in the video to my area, so I wonder if I could even order pellets online. Last time I checked, here in Illinois you must be 18 or older to buy air rifle ammo. Maybe there's some odd law that prevents Amazon from shipping here. It really sucks, because none of the stores near me sell either of those pistols. Maybe a trip to the Wisconsin border is in order, lol! Maybe I'll pick up some fireworks while I'm at it, lol!
I’ve taken a groundhog with my Winchester 1100SS. It’s a .177. Shoots over 950fps with crosman pointed 7.4gr. I was 12-15 yards away. A 177 or 22 with the right pellet will take up to raccoons and groundhog easily. A Hatsan 135 in .22, .25 or.30 at 30fpe would take a deer within 30 yards with a headshot. No matter what you hunt shot placement is key for everything.
If the UK wasn't so paranoid I could enjoy my air guns but when you get a Firearms officer come to your door because you were plinking in your backyard,well you just give up.
Giving up is why those laws are there. Join city council, and come up with an argument in favor of removing or at least relaxing those laws. Maybe that's just the American in me talking, as I'm not sure how you guys over there conduct local legislation. You may also want to consider asking your local firing range (if any) if you could rent lane time for your air gun/rifle. Another alternative is to make a homemade sound suppressor (check here on TH-cam; plenty of Americans can show you how to make an effective and cheap one), again, assuming that in and of itself isn't illegal. I don't advocate breaking laws, but I most certainly advocate changing them. It all depends how badly you want it, and how well you keep pushing for change. Many a law got passed because someone kept pestering city council to do something trivial, and the legislators caved in to make them stop, lol. Again, maybe that's just in America.
Well, I have a .177 air rifle made by Gamo called the "CFX." It's insanely accurate even at 70 yards, and while I usually don't hunt (no need since the grocery store is about a half mile down the road), I did once test it out of curiosity, and put hole through a sparrow's eye socket at about 50-60 yards. It was a clean kill; the bird never even made a sound other than "thud" as it hit the ground. The pellet passed through the left eye and was wedged in the upper back right of the skull, pushing - but not breaking - the skin on the other side. I never had the desire to pointlessly kill after that, and used the bird as fertilizer. My CFX is rated to have a 1,000 fps muzzle velocity with standard match grade lead ammo, and up to 1,250 fps with PBA. I was just using a typical Crossman flat head you use to punch a clean hole through paper targets, so nothing fancy. As far as I know, all of Gamo's airguns and air rifles are a single pump (it won't even allow a second pump). So for target shooting, a .177 is great. I imagine if I were hunting, I'd opt for a heavier round. I'd do the same for combat with firearms; I'd take a .308 cal over a 5.56mm every time, or a .45 ACP over a 9mm Luger. For one thing, a .45 ACP is already subsonic at about 840-865 fps (6" barrel), so if you suppress it, it carries way more punch than a suppressed 9mm. Ah, I'm getting off topic. Anyway, I'd opt for a heavier round if it's stopping power I'm after, but I'd opt for smaller ammo if all I'm doing is plinking. It's not like one is better than the other; it depends on the use. A Ferrari will smoke a dually pickup tuck on the track, but the dually pickup truck will smoke a Ferrari in a towing drag race (look up "semi-truck drag racing" if you want to see the most American sport ever). It all depends what the application is. it's the same with weapons, which is why there are so many kinds out there. I wouldn't hunt squirrel with a APFSDS .50BMG round (there'd be nothing left), and I wouldn't hunt armored vehicles with a .177. XD
I'm sorry but I cant agree with your shooting at only 12 yards with the 1377 'because I have that gun it's my very favorite not for power but because my son gave one to me 4years ago 'and I killed the last turkey my mom had before she passed away at over 20 yards with it 'and that tells me they hit a lot harder then what I saw in you video 'I use Crossman 7.9 gran pellets I get at Wal-Mart .I have lots of other kinds of guns as well 'I have the hatsan 125 sniper /ruger black hawk elite both in .177 cal the hatsan is a deadly gun I know what you people think 'a girl shouldn't be using guns I also have a12 gage and a grizzly .50 cal I don't shot that thing first and last time I shot it it broke my shoulder 'so it just sits in my closet collecting dust 'im from Kodak Tennessee
Guy,gal,adult or child makes no difference! If someone is practicing safe handling and enjoys it,shooting is for them and I am for them doing so! Airguns are great therapy and I think back to my childhood and how dreadful it would have been without them. Also in the 90’s these guns were around and they were a bit different from what I remember but still a solid and accurate choice for those morning squirrel hunts! Regardless of what some may say about it,I think it’s awesome you are into it and it’s great that you actually seem to be educated and genuine about airguns
I went from a Gamo Bull Whisper @ .177 to a Hatsan Bt 65 @.25. Now I know what accuracy is. Night and day difference. The Diablos hit like a baseball bat.
Walter Sobchak ppl who have never shot anything other then a .177 will defend it as the best caliber. A .22 is better then a .177 and a .25 is better then a .22 etc... bigger is better when it comes to air guns
Been battling this myself when gun shopping and saw a Brit. debunk the myth that .177 is better at long distances (aside from the flat trajectory). They don't retain more energy over distance they lose a lot right out of the barrel just like the .22. Gotta admire his effort, he broke Crony's doing it. He wanted to see with it was travelling like "at the other end". So he baselined them from the barrel and then moved them in 10-meter increments all the way to 50m. Only a smidgeon of difference between the FPS and FPE at the end. But a much better impact with the .22. If going long distance, you can always lighten up on the pellet in a .22 and match a heavy .177 and get the best of both worlds, splitting the difference so to speak. He was using two Walther's only about 100fps difference ultimately which is fair given the weights. Once at the target end, the kinetic energy difference was meaningless, but the weight puts the .22 clear ahead. Both lose so much just 10 meters out of the barrel then they level off, then they end up at the target with only a hair of fpe difference. So a fair enough test, like your two identical Crosmans and legendary versatile shooters they are, I own the 2289, and while it has it's faults like all these (barrel roll with a scope on it, cause of the dumb plastic barrel band), you can upgrade them endlessly, yeah. Some, like mine come with the stock standard but no grips for pistol use "The backpacker" they call it. I like it as a carbine, love it as a carbine actually, it's too big as a pistol. Came with a garbage child size Crosman water bottle and child size backpack, lol. At least I got a tin of pellets (Crosman pointed tip) and some targets. I still have the dumb backpack and I keep the gun and pellets in it. Lol. Oooo yeah, apocalypse here I come, with my tiny backpack and Crosman .22 carbine, hehehe. It does look pretty cool though now, has a small cheap scope and laser, it's a good shooter, they always were, used the same as a kid. That's how they marketed the thing, this "backpacker". Like you were in the Fallout games. I think they reissued it as a more zombie themed package after that and included zombie splatterblast targets. *eyeroll. Hey, the price was right. You could pay for a Crosman by itself with nothing, or the same price or maybe $5 difference and get the whole package, it was well worth it, even if half the stuff was junk.
I take starlings at 60+ yards with my 22 benjamin prowler. That's good enough for a air rifle. The plum of feathers exploding and bird dropping confirms my well placed shot. I also have a 177, the slightest wind blows my pellet off course and in my area its no where near as accurate despite its faster speed. In that same 60 yards my pellet may get shifted 6"+ left/right and completely miss my target. If i do connect with the 177 its not an instant kill like my 22.
I just got a Crosman 1377 for my birthday. I am having my grandfather help me sight it in because it shoots ~2" high and ~1.5-2" to the right of my point of aim when shooting from a bench with sandbags. Once I get it sighted in I plan to carry it deer hunting with me for shooting squirrels that come within range or decide to sound the alarm on me. I can do this because deer season occurs during squirrel season here in VERMONT, USA.
I'm with you John on the air guns. Over here in the UK we have unlicensed air rifles limited to 12ft/lb. At that power level .177 has proved very effective on Rabbit, but certain quarry like rats, and feral pigeon seem to respond better to the larger 22 cal. Respond = knock down drop dead:) Sandy
Hello Sandy, Fancy seeing you here. Ive always shot .22. If you were buying a new airgun what would you go for? Im about to trade my BSA Ultra for the new Ultra XL, I just cant decide which caliber, decisions........
Hi Ian, I don't do as much shooting these days but for sub 12ft/lb have always favoured the .177 provided you can hit the spot it will kill well. My quarry was mostly rabbit but for rats and feral pigeon the 22 did seem more effective.
Check out our follow up video. Pellets vs Slugs. th-cam.com/video/rcH5y903rJI/w-d-xo.html
I love air guns, I use mine to shoot essential oil compound that desinfect the air in stinky rooms or corridor. it pulverises it and it smells good...
I am 71 years old so I was brought up that the .177 was the only "real" airgun. I use a 1377 in my living room where i have a 12 ft range so I don't even have to stand up to shoot. If I were to go out hunting with a pistol I would absolutely use the 1322 instead, I want to get one anyway.
If you hunt, .177 is best for lower power, cheap accurate guns like 1377. How do I know this.
Explain what a "real" airgun is.
Follow the old rule........ 22 for fur .... 177 for feathers. Best option is one of both.
Aint a mousebor rat easier to penetrate that bunch of feathers? Never shot a bird but shot a mouse with 177. And pellet passed though it. Wasn't instant death obviously but shots besides headshots rarely are. Unless you use a real gun because then there's nothing left of it.
Cool. I had never heard that one. Sounds good to me
@@damnsonwheredyoufindthis.3830 I shot a mouse with a .410 shotgun. Blew his head clean off!
well said💯
Not saying it cannot be done because I have killed dozens but it usually took more than one shot but the .177 on a pigeon is almost inhumane. .22 much nicer with the benjamin 392. One and done every time.
Hey Wingman! I'm all for the 22 cal pellet guns, especially for hunting. Let me tell you about an experience I had while squirrel hunting. I bought my 1st air rifle about 10 years ago. After a lot of searching and comparing I bought an RWS Diana break barrel in 177 cal. Practiced and practiced and got pretty good with it. First time out squirrel hunting I saw 2 greys come across a ravine and jump up on a log about 15 yards in front of me, chewing on nuts. I did it all right. I aimed at one of the the squirrels, squeezed the trigger, and pop! I heard the unmistakable thud when the pellet hit him, and he fell over the back of the log. The other squirrel sat there confused, and I slowly and meticulously broke the barrel of my RWS and loaded another pellet and drew down on the 2nd grey. Pop, then another unmistakable thud as the pellet hit him and knocked him over the back of the log. I waited about 10 minutes, to give them time to bleed out. When walked up to the log and slowly looked over the log, one of the squirrels looked up at me, took off running, then ran up a tree about 40 yards away, and about 20 foot up the tree went into a hole! After a few choice words, I looked over the log again and the other grey looked up at me, took off running, ran up the same tree and went into the same hole the 1st squirrel went into! Again a few choice words! I went home and the next week, sold my 177, bought a Benjamin Marauder in 22 cal, and haven't looked back! I do have a couple of 177's but they are collectors air guns only! Only the 22 cal for me, for hunting anyway! Thanks for your time. John from Cedar Rapids, IA.
Thanks for the comment and stopping by.
Loved the story.... I can see that happening.
Sounds like a comedy act
Years ago, tried experimenting with 177 on the trapline (hoping to lessen pelt damage). Field experience dictates strongly to me that the .22 is the thing for animal harvesting.
+Badgerrr Lattin 👍🏻👊🏻
I started out with 177 for the inexpensive ammo available and flat trajectory. I also love to punch paper and at that time thought little in the way of pest control. I now live outside the city and recently purchased a 22 and wow what a difference when it comes to knock down power. I don't believe I waited this long, so bottom line is get both. I like the 177 for teaching and target work and 22 although can be used for those things I prefer to use them in the field.
I'm a .22 fan boy.
love the .22 for target, plinking and hunting.
I do have one .177 rifle and a few .177 pistols, but I always prefer my .22.
I think it's a generation thing, I've grown up with .22 rifles.
Me as well. Thanks for checking in.
I have had 22 since 1948 still like the 22 best.
1948?!?! God bless you, sir!
I use both calibres. I used to prefer the .22 but decided a few years back to balance out and get into .177 too. They're very similar in effectiveness against small game, but refreshingly different in terms of accuracy and velocity.
I have both myself .177 and the .22, .177 go's faster but the .22 has more punch .both are great
Velocity with enough mass is king.
I am a 177 fan.. All things being equal the 177 steps out ahead... the only advantage a 22 has is at closer ranges with blunt force trauma, however a pass through the heart or brain with a 177 still is a kill... a 177 starts to show its strengths at distances beyond 20 yards... All things have terminal velocity and the 22 will reach terminal velocity sooner thus it will slow down quicker and loose more energy the further the distance gets... For example shooting a 16 grain from both the 177 and 22 the muzzle energy and velocity will be almost identical however at 50 yards the 177 will be going fast and retain more energy... The flatter shooting will also mean less misses because of misjudged distances.. Also the 177 requires less energy to penetrate so at distances if it is going fast and retaining more energy then it will penetrate much easier and way deeper... shooting small pigs could extend your killing distance to a greater distance because it could penetrate the skull easier and get into the brain. It takes less force to drive a 10 penny nail than a spike... If you are going to go ratting at 10 to 15 yards then fine the 22 will blast the hell out of them but for long shots on jack rabbits, coon, smaller ferrule pigs then the 177 will have a higher velocity and more energy and penetrate easier and deeper and shoot flatter... And in reality you may also find that some lighter bullets in 177 will deliver way more energy than heaver 22 caliber at longer ranges... Physics and terminal velocity do not lie... If you took a 16 grain 177 and 16 grain 22 and dropped them out of an airplane the 177 would hit the ground sooner because the 22 will reach terminal velocity sooner and not be able to increase its speed and slow down much sooner than the 177... You can see this in action by taking two balloons and blow one up and leave the other unblown and drop them both at the same time and the unblown balloon will hit the ground sooner because the one that is blown up hit terminal velocity and can't go any faster toward the ground... everything drops at 32 feet per second and increased by that same amount for each second until terminal velocity is reached and it cant' go any faster because of the resistance of air.. so the first second it will drop 32 feet the next second it will drop and additional 64 feet and the next second it will drop and additional 96 feet and continue until it can't go any faster... that is its terminal velocity, when the body in motion is slowed down because of the air resistance... a larger diameter bullet of equal weight and design will slow down more and quicker than a smaller diameter bullet... thus it will have less velocity, less energy retention and less penetrating properties.. so a 177 will best a 22 at any distance... And who shoots anything at muzzle... so even at close range the 177 will still kill just as effectively, you may get more pass through and not blow a rat half way across the yard but the rat is still dead with his heart or brain torn to shreds... and you won't break every bone in his body but he is still dead... So if you are not a good shot then keep your distances close and use a 22 if you are a half way decent shot then use a 177 for all distances... and you will kill game at further distances... and also have less misses attributed to a flatter trajectory with misjudged distances... You can't cheat science no matter how much you want to..
Thanks for watching.
Jim Richard I respect what you're trying to say but you're way off... all pellets leave the muzzle at their maximum velocity... they don't increase as they go farther. Being dropped from a plane and being shot from a barrel are two completely different things. The .22 will always retain more energy down range because it's heavier plain and simple. It takes more velocity for a .177 to reach the energy of a .22. Will it shoot flatter yes if you're comparing them with their energy. But if you shoot both a .177 and .22 at 900fps the .177 will lose energy quicker because it will lose velocity quicker then a heavier pellet. And finally a .177 will over penetrate more than a .22 because it has less surface area. When it comes to air guns you want most of the energy to transfer on your quarry. .22 may penetrate less, at certain velocities, but will create a bigger cavity for a quicker dispatch.
Same rifle only different cal. .177 cal with JSB 13,43 has muzzle velocity of 807 and fpe of 19, and 50 yards downrange it has 607 velocity and 11 fpe. on the other hand a .22 with JSB Express 14.30 grains has a muzzle velocity of 708 and fpe of 16 and downrange to 50 yards it has 547 for velocity and 10 fpe... If the 177 shoots an equal weight bullet of the same design it will travel fast and hit harder than the .22 because there is less wind resistance and the .22 slows down too quickly.... obviously if you shoot a .177 with 7 grains vs the .22 with 18 grains then the .22 will have more energy but that is not comparing apples with apples... but if you shoot similar weight pellets then the .177 will dominate and also penetrate deeper and easier because of the smaller diameter and at 50 yards they claim that it takes the .22 an extra 3 to 4 foot pound to equal the penetrating properties of the .177, again smaller diameter will penetrate easier and deeper if the weight of the bullet is about equal... In order to leave the energy in your game is only a matter of bullet type... pointed vs round nose vs hollow point... .177 also has many more variety of pellet weights and styles than are offered with the .22... If you can't penetrate and reach the vitals then you only wound an animal.. so which one of equal weight will bust through skull and other bones easier - .177... They claim that it takes only 5 fpe to kill a rabbit with good shot placement that means that the .177 can dispatch a rabbit at around 135 yards with a pellet weighing around 13 to 14 grains, because at that range it has 5 fpe... and the .22 with 14-15 grain pellet, at that 135 yards only has about 3 to 4 fpe (and it may not penetrate properly to get into the vitals)... You may also want to consider trajectory, the .177 shoots much flatter than the .22 of equal weight bullets which means you could miss a shot because of misjudged distances with a .22 and with a .177 that is not such a critical issue... A .177 can break 1 inch disc at 20,30,40 yards (about the size of a rabbits heart), where as the .22 will break the 20 and 40 and shoot right over the 30 yard one... because of its bell shaped trajectory... a miss is a miss is a miss... no matter if you tried to shoot it with a tank... Each to his own and if you like the .22 them by all means use one but I prefer the .177 because of all the benefits and also it extends your kill range from 5-10 yards over a .22... This same argument went on years ago with the 270 vs the 30-06, and we all know how that turned out... the 30-06 had more energy and shock at closer ranges but at longer distances the 270 showed it's dominance... and also at close ranges the 270 had more than adequate energy (even though the 30-06 had more)... But if you paired the 270 with 140 grains and the 30-06 with 150 grains then the 270 was very close to the same energy at close ranges but again showed it's true colors when the distances were stretched to 400 and 500 yards... So there ya have it... I will stick with .177 all day... Which would you want to get hit with, a golf ball or a softball if they were thrown with the same amount of force... I think the golf ball would hurt a great deal more... and the golf ball will travel further and slow down less than the softball..
Jim Richard the .270 shined because it has a better ballistic coefficient, better ballistic coefficient better down range energy because the BC makes a bullet retain its velocity better at long distance. But you can't compare pellets to bullets they're apples vs oranges. With pellets, the shape and weight affects its BC typically round nose pellets have a better BC and a heavier pellets increases it. A .22 jsb has a better bc than a .177 jsb period. Of course if you shoot these two caliber from the same power platform the .177 will shine no doubt about it. I prefer the .22 because I don't shoot em from low powered airguns, each caliber is restricted to a certain energy and a heavier .22 shot at 900fps will have way more energy then a .177 shot at 900fps, more energy, more damage, more penetration etc.. bigger is better when it comes to pellets. A .25 will outperform a .22 in every way as well
Jim Richard you don't want to dispatch a rabbit with the minimal power it takes to take one out. At 135 yd what's the chance you'll actually hit it? Let's talk realistically here not numbers. Even for my $1300 .22 I would never take a shot at a rabbit past 100 yd
Buy both! Can't have too many!
I agree.
Wingman115 And a few big bores for the more difficult targets! I'm testing out my homemade .50cal pcp rifle tomorrow, will have a video up on it very soon!
MrTurbo458 congratulations! stupidest comment on here
@@joeyv4362 Maybe if we omit your comment from that evaluation.
I bought 2 Beeman. One Kodiak & one Grizzly (both are dual barrel). That's on top of the other ones I own so I tend to keep the .22 barrel on.
With either one - I would put a shoulder stock on them (and a scope). You just can't hold it steady enough as a pistol. You can't go wrong with either one! As with ANY hunting situation, shot placement is the key!
Which ever one makes you a shooter is a credit to the sport...I like them all.
I use the airgun for pest control around the house and property. When you think about that there is no better way to go than .22 calibre. The one thing you don't want to happen is to cause the pest to suffer from pain. With .22 calibre it's one shot and goodnight Irene. Also, you don't want to have that injured animal to scamper off into your drywall and dying, only for you to have to tear apart a wall to get to the critter and chase again. There is nothing worse than the smell of a dead mouse in your house.
Yeah i shot a mouse with 177. Pointy pellet and it took about 30sec for the mouse to die.
After the hit it wasn't able to run anymore but it could take minutes for it to die depending where you hit. My pellet hit the longs and passed through so it bled a bit though its nose but still 30 sec probably is quite quick.
Air rifle with scope probably would be ideal so you can shoot more vital spots.
22. Is definately better for pest control and causes less suffering but still probably not instant death but that's just how it is.
Cat had fun with a dead mouse after outside at least.
@@damnsonwheredyoufindthis.3830 Would also suspect a bit more thump with a bit less pass through with the slower 22. Bout like comparing a 9mm vs 45ACP
.177 my whole life since I was a boy (I’m 48 now) but recently discovered the Crosman 2240 CO2 pistol and am now hooked on .22 caliber! All calibers have their place. 22 is a great all-rounder, though.
Wingman, I think that one advantage that the .177 size has over .22 is that you can fire pellets AND BBs. I don't have a preference, but I'd like to try a .22. The more mass pellet has, the better stopping power at close range, perfect for varmints and other targets. It goes without saying, of course, that a .22 carbine or rifle trumps them all!
177. Better penetration. Flatter trajectory. Cheaper ammo. More options because if you shoot a 177 hollow point it is like a 22 cal and you can shoot a heavy pellet which means good penetration and less fpe loss due to less surface area. Doesn't get bucked in the wind as much too. Am I right on that one? Less surface area less like a kite? Why is a 22 better? Over all poundage because Pcp s are more efficient shooting heavy and big pellets... I think. That's the only thing. A little more accuracy from the ability of not having to shoot a hollow point. But I think the trajectory factor outweighs this. Let's hear yours.
😂 these don't have anywhere near the velocity to expand a hollow point effectively.
I'm a reloader and cast bullet fan, I also have two air rifles in my collection. I've always been a fan of heavy bullets because they simply hit harder. This man is right for going to the .22 caliber. In my inventory, I have a Gamo Hunter extreme and a Benjamin Nitro Trail both in .22.
Thanks for the comment Gary.
Thanks John for the review. I have two of these and both in .177. I've killed several ground squirls with them and ate many woks of stir-fry of sparrow. I put the carbine stocks on both. One with a scope other with the add on steel breech and upgrade iron sight. Am now leaning toward the 0.22 cal. and think I need a couple more in this caliber. Great survival gun that is quite and will put small game in the pot. The lower you can live on the food chain, the greater will be your chances of survival. Long after the elk and deer have been shot, the small game will still remain.
I'd go for the .177 now but I used to shoot nothing but .22's before and they are deadly at shorter ranges. I've grown older now and not a very effective stalker anymore so i'll shoot from longer distances with optics..great videos...
We have a 12ft/lbs limit on air rifles here in the UK - any more than that and you have to go through all the faff of a Firearms Certificate, signatures, verifications, photographs, lockable security, inspections by police officers (who don't necessarily understand what they're looking at), plus restrictions on where you can use them. I stick to 12ft/lbs guns and I know my pellet is going to deliver bags of energy when it gets to where it's going, the difference being that the .177 pellet travels faster than the .22 and therefore has a flatter trajectory. So when I'm taking shots at a variety of distances and I'm in the field so I don't have the luxury to keep taking out my rangefinder and consulting drop tables, the .177 is my calibre of choice every time. The bunnies aren't so keen on it though...
A pellet rifle or pistol is great to keep your shooting skills sharp. I have pistols and rifles in both calibers. Both require proper pellet placement. For distance I would go with the 177. For larger game, I would use the 22. I cant really say which is better as both have taken a bunch of game and pests. Saving up for my next rifle, a 25 caliber springer. Should be interesting.
PyramidAir.com has them as do several others including Fin Feather Fur here in Ashland, Oh
I replaced my Crosman 760 with a new Daisy 880 and Love it. Of course it's .177, but I have a Beeman break barrel in .22 to cover that end. I know that the "10 pump limit" is nearly scripture but after having a conversation with the Daisy Technicians I was assured that more than 10 pumps would indeed increase power and not harm the weapon in any way. They said the danger was in pumping it and leaving it for a period of time, say overnight. They said they wouldn't go crazy and go more than 30 pumps but 20 and up to 30 is no problem. That being said, since I don't have a Chrony I have to just deal with results. Those being; my beeman is a dual caliber so I can swap from .22 to .177. My beeman will put a .177 10.5 gr. Gamo heavy halfway through a one inch board at 30 feet. My daisy at 10 pumps just over a quarter inch. At 20 pumps the daisy will put that same pellet through the board. I can also get a dime sized group from that Daisy at 50 feet. So, like you said it's about the use. For me a lightweight but very hard hitting .177 is great for hunting on the stalk because the range drops off so quick. A .22 is great for blind or fixed hunting where you can stay in position and reach out 50 - 70 yards effectively. If you have the power - like this Daisy does - 50 feet or closer the calibers are almost irrelevant (though quarry size is a real factor). Of course, one needs to do their due diligence and find the right pellet for their gun or it's a moot point. Cause you know as well as I that airguns have an attitude about the pellets they like :-) PCPs are a horse of another color however.
i like .177 because it seems to be alot more common around here in stores to find tins
Good stuff.
I was raised on .177 pellet guns as a child, I typically would be able to shoot them fairly accurately but I felt it was always lacking knock down power. I am happy to report I am totally switching to .22 pellets. I have completely revamped my air gun arsenal, and for starters I purchased the crosman 1322 pistol. I have a crush on a Kral Arms .22 puncher breaker . (I just need to justify the cost) thanks for the video.
Thanks for watching.
177 for me. Im a target shooter, don't hunt other than the occasional nuisance rodents (even a bb going anything over 500fps put right behind a rat's eye will usually go right through its head killing it instantly. Though i prefer pellets for that use) so knock-down power isn't really a pressing concern for me.
So for (both guns and ammo) the price, availability and that pinpoint accuracy I don't seem to get with .22 I go .177. Oh and for some guns the ability to go pellet or bb is a nice option.
when i was a kid i had a .177 spring rifle and i've hunt a lot with it .22 were scarce. so i was a big fan of .177. Later on my 30's i got some .22 and i liked it very much, but at that time i wasn't a hunter any more. Nowadays in my 60's weapon laws are so restrictive in my country (Spain) they have spoil all the fun of air guns, can't hunt with an air rifle, can't shoot anywhere but in a range facility, and the most powerful airguns are cut down to a maximum 24 joules (17.7 foot-pound)
I was going to add, that on Pigman's channel he has a vid of him taking a wild pig with a gamo silent cat (I believe) using only a .177 pellet. Shot placement really is the Golden Rule. I Love your channel, man. Keep it up ad I'll keep coming back :-) And I'm a sucker for airgun stuff :-)
Fullmoon Prepping and using a pellet with decent expansion/energy transfer.
.177 makes more sense for pistols since pistols are fairly weak and are meant for shooting planks instead of hunting. The flatter trajectory with a .177 pellet is more forgiving when trying to be accurate. If you really want to hunt game, then a rifle that fires either .177 or .22 pellets would be much more logical than a pistol that fires .22 pellets. So I feel the 1322 is more niche as it doesn't beat the 1377 in terms of accuracy and it doesn't beat a rifle for hunting; It's kinda stuck some where in between.
I have both 22 and 177 and I prefer the 177. it shoots faster and further. seems to be more accurate. the 22 is good for close range but the 177 wins on distance.
Ditto x2.
There’s some crossover now with the larger range of pellet choice. There’s .22 lead as light as some .177 and .177 heavies as heavy as some .22
I really like both, each for their own purpose really, the .177 is nicer in my opinion to punch small holes in paper. Most importantly for me is perhaps that if I have guests over its really simple to explain to them "only shoot the reactive targets on the right side with the .177". They will easily hold up to my old break barrel, crosman 1377, crosman 1077, etc. Most will even handle the Weihrauch HW35 in that caliber.
However those targets will certainly get wrecked pretty fast when shooting them repeatedly with the Weihrauch HW97k, gamo coyote or benjamin marauder pistol in .22 cal. Fortunately I do have a few more robust targets beyond just paper set up on the left side that can handle everything I've thrown at it so far with only minor maintenance being needed.
For active hunting I suppose I would be inclined towards a .22 or .25 PCP or if I want a self contained powerplant an underlever spring .22 rifle like the HW97K. However hunting laws are pretty restrictive here, not allowed with airguns and you have to apply for a hunting permit and go through some more hassles for the guns and permission to hunt in certain areas etc. If I had to though I'm fairly confident I could get the pellet to land on target, been doing enough outdoor shooting with various wind conditions varying from short to a decent 50-60 meters regularly.
Judging the distance reliably and fast in an unknown area is a skill that'd be sorely lacking though since I usually use the same place for that and know how far all the objects are apart (markers along the wall every 5 meters for my own convenience). Of all things getting that down might just be the hardest one, ofcourse I suppose I could cheat with a laser rangefinder.
It might be an excessive collection just for punching holes in paper and shooting more interesting targets that do something, but I've found that its a good way to relax after having thought way too much about stuff during the day at work. And at the same time get a little bit of light physical activity done rather than sit at the couch watching tv after being stuck at the desk all day at work.
Give me an accurate 177 air gun shooting 950 fps 8.3 gr dome pellet and I will show you dead home wrecking pests. All day.
I love squab. When local farmers found out about this, they asked me to come into their barns are reduce the population that was eating their feed. On saturday nights I made the rounds of the barns with my crossman 1377. I used BBs instead of pellets and maybe 3 or 4 pumps. I didn't want to put holes in the barn roofs. The barns were dark so I hunted with a flashlight. It didn't matter how old they were, my wife cooked the in a pressure cooker for a short time, then stuffed them and baked them. They were tender. The sad part was that as the farmers got older, they sold the farms for housing tracks and I lost my hunting grounds.
+JGZ IFLY Thanks for commenting.
Only have a 177 and can't say anything has ever got away after being shot
I have a .177 in that same pistol you have. Didn’t like it much until I modified it into a short riffle, lol. I also have a .177 in a 1200fps and 1650fps and the power of that Gamo Magnum was most surprising UNTIL... .50 Umarex Hammer baby! I waited my butt off on the waiting list for this work of air gun art for weeks!Amazing.... Air gun are the future at this rate of excitement!
they both have a place. mice, rats, squirrel I like .177 for flat trajectory and accuracy. for racoon and such I like 22 for energy down range. I'm actually relatively new (6 years) for the .22. I grew up with the red Rider and the 1377 and have used both since. can't beat the red rider for a wake up when the horses are actin up.
Thanks for sharing.
I have the 1377, but strongly considering getting the .22 cal because of the power difference. Thanks for the video.
My .22 gives good results with lead round ball as well. If hunting, I strongly suggest that .22 cal. Tried using a .177 as a trapline tool once and was badly disappointed.
.22 and up. Hatsans .22 bullboss puts out 38 foot pounds of energy and there .25 is around 45 foot pounds of energy. Bigger heavier pellet from a powerful gun results in longer range and the critter is gone almost instantly upon impact. 177 is strictly for small critters at close range and is for very precise shooters. Great for plinking. May work for some but not on my ammunition list. 22 and up for me.
Grew up using .177 but I def prefer the .22. Its much better suited for hunting and I can still get plenty of range with a reasonable trajectory.
A real difference is whether you want kinetic energy or penetration. I cant make any comments on a .22 because I haven't used one. A point everyone is making is that the .177 is more affordable and easier to find, which is true. You can also get some heavier pellets for the .177, or even super penetrators if thats what you want. Lots of different things you can shoot from a .177 which is awesome.
I like .177 its cheaper and I like the challenge of hitting my targets dead on. I find the .177 more available than I do the .22
i believe that to be changing rapidly. old guns yes .177 is king, but .22 prince about to take the throne soon in the next 5-10 years will surpass.
The .22 cal maximum range is 50 yards it is just too heavy vs the .177 cal maximum range of 400 yards so definitely the .177 is the best option.
I hunt rabbits and use a 177 solely because the pellet travels flatter and further thus the need for less hold over at longer distances.
My shots are very consistent and very accurate thus perfect head shots always guaranteeing a clean kill .
I also use a 22 lr rimfire for winter as there is les less foliage to hide , 177 in summer, this gives me the ability to stalk my Quarry and bring the hunter instincts out ,
Back on the topic I also have a 22 air rifle and use this less, I do agree that it has a harder punch but but it seems to run out of steam and spits the pellet out a bit cumbersome compared to 177, this sead I live in the UK our limited laws to sub 12ftb may be the answer for low performance.
177 seems faster , flatter and a further performance caliber for me . Hope this helps my friend on the outside of the pond .
God bless America
I shoot both hunting yes .22 but accuracy on .177 can off set. I have 50/50 but I have kille dchocks with 177 but you are correct .22 is more forgiving.
I have both myself .177 and the .22, .177 go's faster but the .22 has more punch .both are great
I own a few 177 springers and I got my 1322 about 1 year ago and is a awesome platform.
I just disagree about pellet cost- we know we get different groupings with different pellets because the barrel chooses the pellet so if you have 2 airguns in .22 you still may need one type of pellet to each gun.
For hunting, .22 is just better at small and mid ranges, .177 is better for long ranges, you know why :)
Been interested in getting air guns thank you for this video.
+gideonstactical they are really fun and addictive once you start.
Wingman115 For sure! Great video
Late to the video, just found it. I’m 57 years old and haven’t been involved with air rifles since I was a teenager and all I had back then were a Daisy 105 (looks like the Buck), a Marksman 1911 repeater pistol, and a Crosman 781. Never heard of a .22 air rifle until a couple years ago but would’ve loved to have had one as a kid.
I thought the 781 didn’t work anymore since it had been setting up in my parent’s house for about 40 years but after a couple drops of 3 and 1 oil (didn’t have any Pellgun oil) and a few cycles it started holding a compression and shooting BBs pretty accurately about fifty feet. I’ll replace the O-rings eventually.
The other two were long gone to air rifle heaven from being completely worn out.
I’ve recently started getting back into air rifles and man have those prices gone through the roof.
So far I got all new Daisy Buck, Youth Red Ryder, and 880 Powerline. I also have them all their own soft rifle case that fits including the Buck which really surprised me but it’s made by Allen for short barrel shotguns but it fit the Buck perfectly.
I plan on buying a few more from Crosman and the Adult Red Ryder Carbine before I get into the more expensive models that cost almost as much as my real firearms.
As for my favorite, 177 or 22, I will have to say the 177 because you can shoot BBs also which are cheaper than pellets. They’re both for plinking and I’ll use my real guns for everything else of a serious nature.
Thanks to posting a comment.
I got my gamo pcp in .177 that shoots 1900 FPS+ and my .22 Remington break barrel that shoots around 1200, both do a amazing job with varments. But with the .177 I can shoot 100+ yards confidently while I’m still getting used to the .22
I got a 177 crosman pump pistol.paid 349 $ for it.but i live in New Zealand...ammo 20-30 $ a tin.I think thats really expensive? But it was worth it,i love it.great vid bro😊
In my country, we can't buy .22 without a Licence.
So compromised with .177
But I LOVE MY INDIA 💕
First off, great to see a newer vid from you again, regarding our favorite little toy. Secondly, TBH I use both calibers almost on an equal basis and enjoy both calibers for what they're good at. For pest control I use the 1322 with carbine shoulder stock, and to keep my pistol skills from degrading I use the now discontinued Benjamin HB17 in .177 or 4.5mm. So to sum up, for pest control, no question... 5.5mm or .22 cal - and for fun and target practice you can't do better than the affordable 4.5mm or .177 cal
Good stuff thanks for stopping by.
I think that the proper caliber often depends on how powerful your gun is. .177 tends to be better in lower powered guns but often looses accuracy in high powered or supersonic guns. The .22 often under penetrates with low powered guns but hits hard and keeps it's accuracy, especially at long range, with the high powered rifles.
I do alot of shooting in .177 but I'm in the process of trying the .22 . That is why I have bought a FX Impact . I originally got it in .177 and love it . No ground squirrel , red squirrel , fox squirrel , gray squirrel , woodchuck , rat coon , crow , fly is safe out to 50 yrds . Yes I sead fly ! These guns are extremely accurate . But now I have bought a .22 barrel fir it because I would like to reach out a little further . I see some people hitting pidgins out to 360 yrds . One gentleman hit a spray can out at 430 yrds with a .22 slug out of the impact . So I thought I would try it . If I decide I need bigger I can get barrels in .25 , .30 , and .35 calibers with a option to buy an adapter to shoot arrows . Its a hole armoury in one . In .177 cal i get about 200+ shots before i have to pump it up in .22 - 120+ consistent shots . Love this riffle . "Deeds nit words "
thank you for the great video, as of right now im shooting .177, after seeing your video im going to have get a .22 as well my wife and i are just getting into the sport of air guns, we plan on teaching our kids
+Michael Kuntz Good stuff. It is a addiction for sure.
I'm a .177 guy. I grew up using this round for plinking. When I started hurting I went to.22 then I learned how to diesel a round. Of course I don't do this with my Benjamin but I'll do it with my Crossman. I've shot squirrels this way and almost ripped them in half, especially with a ballistic tip round. I know this is not the response you were looking for but I love the topic of air guns. Great video!
Let it rip!
i like the .22 cal...it's hitting hard and with distrution....
+marksteve lum-chou 👍🏻👊🏻
Personally, I like them both. Using the .177 is fun because there is precision involved with the shot. It makes it more of a challenge. Using the .22 is just as fun because even though it has more heft to it, skill is still required in acquiring that good placement shot to ensure that the critter goes down quickly and humanely. Thank you fit the video. Always enjoy your enthusiasm in the video. Cheers.
Thanks Terry!
.22 for most small game hunting is the way to go. .177 is fine for head shots on small pest birds and chipmunks at close range.AA 410 FAC .22Browning mag pistol .22Crosman 1322 backpacker with steal breach kit / scope .22Crosman T4 .177
So I had a conversation with my son on which to buy today and my phone was sitting right next to us now this video is recommended really.
Just ordered the .22 cal.
Yeah I’ve had that happen. I have zero interest in dungeons and dragons. Never once searched it online. Was talking on the phone with my retired dad, he has some friend who is into it so he was going to try it out. What do I see on my phone 2 hours later… ad for dungeons and dragons. Creepy google is listening lol
Ever tried loading a 177 with cold fingers ?
Been shooting air guns for 25 years. I've owned over 100 different pistols and rifles but I've never had a .22 cal until just last week I decided to buy one. Picked up the Ruger impact max for $150 and was instantly love at first shot.... I gotta say, I love the knockdown power. I am now a fan of the .22 cal and believe it will be my first choice from now on.
Thanks for commenting.
1377 is so accurate, so it is the exception for an air handgun, head shots on small game is too easy using that model.
I also have both pistols, but I have built my main air gun system around .22 caliber pellets. My .22 caliber small game hunting battery consists of the Crosman 1322 pistol with the carbine stock, the Benjamin 392 multi pump rifle, and the Umarex Octane nitro piston break barrel air rifle. I have scopes on both the Benjamin 392 and the Umarex Octane. As for my .177 caliber guns, I have the Crosman 1377 pistol paired with the Beeman RS1 .177 caliber break barrel springer rifle scoped with 4x32 scope. I use the .177 caliber air guns for plinking, and the .22 caliber air guns for small game hunting. My .22 caliber air guns have taken ground squirrels, rabbits, possums, skunks, raccoons, and turkeys. I am looking into getting a .22 caliber Crosman Marauder for my first PCP air rifle.
In a Crosman 13xx, the .22 is the way to go. More energy from the same power plant, and not much less velocity. (though both are marginal on squirrels) In general, I've found that in a suburban back yard, .177 is only ever inadequate on raccoon sized varmints. Even then, a good head shot at 12-15 FPE will put them down. Anything smaller easily falls to a well-placed .177, even with chest shots. Just look for at least 10 FPE.
+1 on these being good introductory airguns. The shoulder stocks are cheap enough that they can be cut down and modded to fit youngsters without a big hit to the wallet.
BTW, I have a Hammerli 850 also, but mine's in .22 and modded for high pressure air, with a regulated tank. It shoots 14.3 gr. JSBs @ 940 fps, for 28 FPE; 80 shots to a fill. This is the latest thing now, Gamo is introducing a similarly set up gun from the factory like this for $300. Look into the Hammerli 850 forum on network 54 to see how to get yours on HPA and save a mint on CO2 in the long run. Thanks for the vids.
Loved seeing a Air Gun video!
I own both calibers of the pumpers in the video & enjoy them both alot. My .177 is my target gun, both paper & spinners. My .22 is the tree rat eliminator in my backyard. BOTH are very quiet & very accurate to about 12 yards for me. I also have a modified 2240 that does both target & hunting duty VERY well.
Thanks again for the Air Gun video Wingman115!
I use 177 for pistols and pistol carbines. And 22 for full length rifles. I prefer the 22 though. :)
Me too!
I have .177 air rifles. They’ve brought down ground hogs. But shot placement is pretty important and so is ammo selection. I wish I had gone with .22 air guns. I wish the .177 packed a little more punch. But they still hit hard.
you asked for opinion why you/me/us all like .22 or .177 ....ok here we go
i am from germany and we have pretty strict gun laws , you can buy an airgun " free " when its muzzle energy is less than 7,5 j ..thats about roughly 5,5 foot pound...or 175 m/s which is about 575 fps ....if you want to stay in the legal limits , ..you can imagine what " average " trajectory you get in an air rifle in .177 and what " under average " trajectory in .22 ......no need to talk about .25 .....
so there are some reasons to go with .177 .
- cheap ....the cheapest pellets are about 3 Euro / tin of 500 ...which is about 3 dollar and about 15 or 20 cent actual
- flatest trajectory in " legal " limits
- highest variety of pellets
- 10 meter match.............intl. standard match
so away from the match .....let me tell you something about my air rifles
i own
- diana 48 bought used in a pretty bad shape , tuned with a custom "oiled wood " style stock , new seals , new spring , utg droop compensator rail , medium rings and swfa ss 16x 42 scope .....pretty nice gun , shoots well , is a lot of fun because it has a lot of recoil ( pg2 tune)
and the pretty old awfull trigger ( i am looking forward to change to a t06 system ) ..sometimes i hate it to shoot .But is demanding ....so i pretty much like it for that !
- FWB 601 ( Feinwerkbau ) a former Recoilles precompression match rifle , it is like a single shot pcp with less power , due to match regulations it has exact 7,5 j and i measured it on 10 shots with a non noticable deviation , if you put in in a gun vise and use wadcutters at 10 meter , you have basicly ONE hole in the diameter of the wadcutter !
it is field target converted with a falcon 5-25x 50 ffp side focus on it , and with H&N field target trophy 4,51 0,56 g pellets at 50 m ( 55yard) it shoots group ( in a vise ) less than 10 mm
- weihrauch hw 80 ( beeman r1 ) ...mostly standard except for a 3-9x42 scope .....going to sell .
a friend of me uses a weihrauch hw 97k in .25 with 7.5 j standard spring , he was " blinded " by the heavy pellet and the theoretical stability and knockdown power .
my holdover at 50 meters with the fwb ( 30m zeroed ) is about 3,2-3,5 mils or about 17 cm.....and it hits ( kneeling or prone ) consistant targets in 10-15 mm ( about 1/2 inch )
the 25 is zeroed at 30 m too and his holdover is more than 1 meter ! a hit is almost coincident . his pellets land 2meter in front or 3 meters behind the target ( usualy standing bottle caps on a magnetic plate )
so ...i dont go for a hunt or shoot at animals at all ...i like the .177 for plinking more
for " extreme " long range shooting ( 75 m or more ) the .177 is not the best , because it looses so much speed , but you need at least 12 foot pound of energy in a 22 to have an advantage for longer ranges , so if you want to stay legal ....no way
if you have more power in a 22 , its ( for me ) wasted energy for plinking , target shooting or field target .
more power in a .177 gives you the opportunity to get a flat trajetory and stay safely subsonic with heavier pellets for stability .
regards , eddie
Thanks for the comment Eddie.
It would be scandalous to buy it over the border,like the Netherlands there rules are less strikt
If you are going after game I think a .22 is the way to go. Twice the weight and almost as fast. If you're just paper punching then it doesn't matter, but if it's part of your stuff hitting the fan prep, you want to step up to the .22.
Its all depends on the fps if you got a 700+ fps 22 airgun its gonna be better then a 1000 fps 177 airgun. If you have a weaker 22 such as the crossman it would not have the same devistating effect as a higher velocity 177.
i have them all in 1 rifle, i can change from 22cal to 177cal, or the other way around in less than 10 seconds, while on the field hunting, i have a 22cal barrel and 177cal barrel that i can attach and detach very quickly, very handy rifle, its called the beeMan Silver Kodiak X2,
.177 by far for long range hunting
Your a good ambassador for shooting Wingman, Here in the UK I like .177 because it teaches you to make the shot count by being very accurate, and the flatter trajectory can take some guess work out of judging distance. after all a pellet through the brain or heart/lung means dead cleanly in any calibre but more skill is involved generally using .177. atb phil and I like the cut of your jib lol subscribed.
+hunter100t thank you for the kind words and commenting.
.22 sounds like my kind of air gun, good recommendation.
+BlackRifle Survival thank you sir.
What about farther?? The .22 cal maximum range is 50 yards it is just too heavy vs the .177 cal maximum range of 400 yards so definitely the .177 is the best option.
.22 cal fanboi all the way... i own a beeman kodiak (springer) .177, a crosman 357 pistol .177(co2), and a crosman phantom .22 cal. and just as u said, .177 cal u have to be spot on with small game, but .22 has way more stopping power. and mods for any are rather simple. both my beeman and crosman were regulated at 495 fps, and my 357 pistol regulated at 450 fps. with a few easy tweeks i got my .22 cal phantom up to 680+ fps with normal lead pellets, by stretching the main spring, adding a little power spacer at the back of the spring and using high velocity pellets i have succeeded in over 750 fps with this cheep Chinese rifle. as for accuracy, its ok, still get the occasional flyers but still shoot a 10 shot grouping of a quarter size. now there is a few dozen squirrels and near 4 times as many crows less to pester me and rob my gardens. funniest thing is, i bought my .22 from walmart months before they stopped selling them here in canada, so now im lost to where i can replace the spring for a stronger one without so many hassles like customs at the border as for i cannot find a canadian outlet for spring rifles
Careful man that mod train is a hard one to get off...
I am a 177 man you have so many options for ammo it's insane
I live in Illinois where air guns are regulated. 177 is cash and carry but 22 is treated like a fire arm. it stinks, but we are stuck. FYI I DON'T live in Chicago.
I hear you bud on that crap!!!!!
I like to call the state Suckinois. From HIGH taxes to lame crap like air gun regulations, Illinois just flat out SUCKS!
Same here. Also they require a foid for .177 over 700 fps. I've heard some stores don't ask for a foid afterall airguns aren't registered so idk. I'm sure online vendors would still ship to your house though. Going to try that.
I standardized on the .177. Found a used Daisy 880 for $20 and a used Gamo Bone Collector for $50. They both prefer the same pellet and I stocked up on them when a tin of 500 was $4. Last month I bought a Crosman M4-177 and I just ordered a Benjamin Trail NP pistol. Now I am reconsidering cancelling that order and getting a .22 rifle instead.
what matters is placement , the type of animal and were you put that pellet
+Angel Devil 👍🏻👊🏻
Back in the day .177 was standard because it was compatible with bb guns, while .22 pellets were a weird niche primarily for hunting. The pellets were harder to find in stock and there wasn't as much variety. The argument was "why don't you just use a real .22 if you are hunting?"
Times have changed, and a .22 pellet is now a great option for backyard pest control where a .22 rifle or pistol might attract unwanted attention (even a .22 short or cci quiet). Many good pellet guns are chambered in .22, they aren't fundamentally more expensive than a .177, and the ammo isn't either. 22 is also more satisfying when shooting cans and frangible targets, and is less likely to blow around in the wind esp at higher velocities.
Basically the only advantage I see to .177 pellets is if you also shoot bb guns, or really value velocity over everything else.
.22 all the way. I've had pellet guns for almost 50 years and I just like the heavier round.
I chose the .22 caliber because the wind does not effect its trajectory like the .177 and it's so much easier to spot the hole on the target because it's a bigger pellet. I bought a Cross-man 1322 pump pistol and also the canister type about five years ago at about 60 dollars each when the .22 bullets were hard to find and its price was not worth buying. I love these two airguns and use them on a daily basis. It's cheaper than live ammo that's for sure and I shoot until I get tired of shooting, who can say that? I can.
+Rafael Madrigal 👍🏻👍🏻
ammo prices sux. I have been thinking of going to a 22 cal Crossman, 392 I think. had the 177 as a kid. thanks for an informative video.
Your welcome.
You are correct about the ammo prices. The prices Wingman115 was quoting for pellets used to be the price for a bulk box of 500 22 LR rounds. So it also sux that 500 pellets alone cost $10-12 and that is for standard designs, when you get into the newer offerings those prices climb as well.
There is no better, depends on how and what your using it for, like pretty much everything. Never listen to anyone who says one is better period, as there are many factors they may not encounter that you might. The best is the one that works best for you with what your needing it to do.
I would take the 22 but what I would really like to see is someone make these things more balanced. I bought one from walmart a while back but it was so ridiculously unbalanced and impossible to be consistently accurate with I returned it and bought a ruger air riffle instead.
IDK, if you aren't really weak the balance and it's effects on accuracy is not a problem. The 13xx airguns are not very heavy and they are used accurately by many people including some kids. A technique to shoot accurately for those with weak wrists may be rested (for target practice) or two handed if no rest is available (for hunting). My Grand-kids over 10 years old and I don't find it impossible or even difficult at all to shoot it even if they need help to pump it!
I am 60 & just got n 2 air guns .
2 months ago a lady friend gave me back a bb gun I gave her 4 her 14 year old grand child ( she had it only 3 weeks ) .
So now I'm stuck with it . I've used it & like it .
So I got a 177 pellet gun . I like it becouse ( 177 r cheaper than 22 pellets plus u can carry more ) It makes me take every shot seriously . Fun n d woods . Just let me c a SNAKE WOOOO . 😂😂😂❤❤❤😂
Thank you so much for posting this video. This is exactly 100% what I wanted to see. Was deciding between these exact two models that both sell for the same price. You covered every question I had. Awesome review! Thank you very much
👍🏻👊🏻
It seems the availability of so many differing pellets on the market has given the 177 more credibility.
I have a very powerful .177 air rifle that was not very expensive as a refurb. It reminds me of a .22 I used to have as a teen ager.
Close range into a 2x4 it sunk in 3/4 of an inch! Oh well so many opinions have confused the issue in my mind.
The low cost of .177 has me in that pocket. I may think more about .22 pistol after all this chatter.Seems easier in close
quarters to rid larger varmints. May be more fun too. So off to find a good sale!
.177
cheap
easy to get hands on
high velocity
good power
never shot a 22 because I can't find any in my local stores and can't even find pellets to them anywhere.
Bruce Patterson Amazon
I have the same issue; every store near me only carries .177 (a good variety of different types), copper BBs, or plastic 6mm airsoft BBs.
Seems like the market for .22 pellets is practically non-existent here, and it seems silly to pay for online shipping when the shipping fee increases the cost by 1.5x. Also, Amazon won't even ship either of those pistols in the video to my area, so I wonder if I could even order pellets online. Last time I checked, here in Illinois you must be 18 or older to buy air rifle ammo. Maybe there's some odd law that prevents Amazon from shipping here. It really sucks, because none of the stores near me sell either of those pistols. Maybe a trip to the Wisconsin border is in order, lol! Maybe I'll pick up some fireworks while I'm at it, lol!
+Goattacular greetings from southern IL. I saw 22 ammo at cabelas. I'm sure there's a cabelas up in your neck of the woods
airgundepot.com
they have a lot of air guns air rifles and airsofts
Where I am .22 is way more common
I’ve taken a groundhog with my Winchester 1100SS. It’s a .177. Shoots over 950fps with crosman pointed 7.4gr. I was 12-15 yards away. A 177 or 22 with the right pellet will take up to raccoons and groundhog easily. A Hatsan 135 in .22, .25 or.30 at 30fpe would take a deer within 30 yards with a headshot. No matter what you hunt shot placement is key for everything.
If the UK wasn't so paranoid I could enjoy my air guns but when you get a Firearms officer come to your door because you were plinking in your backyard,well you just give up.
+Phill Robinson I'm sorry Phill.
Giving up is why those laws are there.
Join city council, and come up with an argument in favor of removing or at least relaxing those laws. Maybe that's just the American in me talking, as I'm not sure how you guys over there conduct local legislation. You may also want to consider asking your local firing range (if any) if you could rent lane time for your air gun/rifle. Another alternative is to make a homemade sound suppressor (check here on TH-cam; plenty of Americans can show you how to make an effective and cheap one), again, assuming that in and of itself isn't illegal. I don't advocate breaking laws, but I most certainly advocate changing them. It all depends how badly you want it, and how well you keep pushing for change. Many a law got passed because someone kept pestering city council to do something trivial, and the legislators caved in to make them stop, lol. Again, maybe that's just in America.
Yeah, Americans have been sooo good at protecting the Second Amendmet that we used to have...
plinking in your back yard is perfectly legal but there are a few rules you must follow.
Len McDougall God bless the usa
Well, I have a .177 air rifle made by Gamo called the "CFX." It's insanely accurate even at 70 yards, and while I usually don't hunt (no need since the grocery store is about a half mile down the road), I did once test it out of curiosity, and put hole through a sparrow's eye socket at about 50-60 yards. It was a clean kill; the bird never even made a sound other than "thud" as it hit the ground. The pellet passed through the left eye and was wedged in the upper back right of the skull, pushing - but not breaking - the skin on the other side. I never had the desire to pointlessly kill after that, and used the bird as fertilizer. My CFX is rated to have a 1,000 fps muzzle velocity with standard match grade lead ammo, and up to 1,250 fps with PBA. I was just using a typical Crossman flat head you use to punch a clean hole through paper targets, so nothing fancy. As far as I know, all of Gamo's airguns and air rifles are a single pump (it won't even allow a second pump). So for target shooting, a .177 is great. I imagine if I were hunting, I'd opt for a heavier round. I'd do the same for combat with firearms; I'd take a .308 cal over a 5.56mm every time, or a .45 ACP over a 9mm Luger. For one thing, a .45 ACP is already subsonic at about 840-865 fps (6" barrel), so if you suppress it, it carries way more punch than a suppressed 9mm. Ah, I'm getting off topic. Anyway, I'd opt for a heavier round if it's stopping power I'm after, but I'd opt for smaller ammo if all I'm doing is plinking. It's not like one is better than the other; it depends on the use. A Ferrari will smoke a dually pickup tuck on the track, but the dually pickup truck will smoke a Ferrari in a towing drag race (look up "semi-truck drag racing" if you want to see the most American sport ever). It all depends what the application is. it's the same with weapons, which is why there are so many kinds out there. I wouldn't hunt squirrel with a APFSDS .50BMG round (there'd be nothing left), and I wouldn't hunt armored vehicles with a .177. XD
Goattacular , blah blah blah blab blab blab on & on 🙇😴
I'm sorry but I cant agree with your shooting at only 12 yards with the 1377 'because I have that gun it's my very favorite not for power but because my son gave one to me 4years ago 'and I killed the last turkey my mom had before she passed away at over 20 yards with it 'and that tells me they hit a lot harder then what I saw in you video 'I use Crossman 7.9 gran pellets I get at Wal-Mart .I have lots of other kinds of guns as well 'I have the hatsan 125 sniper /ruger black hawk elite both in .177 cal the hatsan is a deadly gun I know what you people think 'a girl shouldn't be using guns I also have a12 gage and a grizzly .50 cal I don't shot that thing first and last time I shot it it broke my shoulder 'so it just sits in my closet collecting dust 'im from Kodak Tennessee
susan Marie roger black hawk elite, best pellet gun I’ve ever had
Guy,gal,adult or child makes no difference! If someone is practicing safe handling and enjoys it,shooting is for them and I am for them doing so! Airguns are great therapy and I think back to my childhood and how dreadful it would have been without them. Also in the 90’s these guns were around and they were a bit different from what I remember but still a solid and accurate choice for those morning squirrel hunts! Regardless of what some may say about it,I think it’s awesome you are into it and it’s great that you actually seem to be educated and genuine about airguns
A woman with a gun is a turn on to me keep it up hope shoulder gets better
I went from a Gamo Bull Whisper @ .177 to a Hatsan Bt 65 @.25. Now I know what accuracy is. Night and day difference. The Diablos hit like a baseball bat.
I'm using the Diablos in my Airforce Escape .25 now..
Walter Sobchak ppl who have never shot anything other then a .177 will defend it as the best caliber. A .22 is better then a .177 and a .25 is better then a .22 etc... bigger is better when it comes to air guns
***** You won't regret it!!!!
Back in the 50's I was always told that the .177 was the "real" air rifle. The .22 was just to take your money.
Been battling this myself when gun shopping and saw a Brit. debunk the myth that .177 is better at long distances (aside from the flat trajectory). They don't retain more energy over distance they lose a lot right out of the barrel just like the .22. Gotta admire his effort, he broke Crony's doing it. He wanted to see with it was travelling like "at the other end". So he baselined them from the barrel and then moved them in 10-meter increments all the way to 50m. Only a smidgeon of difference between the FPS and FPE at the end. But a much better impact with the .22. If going long distance, you can always lighten up on the pellet in a .22 and match a heavy .177 and get the best of both worlds, splitting the difference so to speak. He was using two Walther's only about 100fps difference ultimately which is fair given the weights. Once at the target end, the kinetic energy difference was meaningless, but the weight puts the .22 clear ahead. Both lose so much just 10 meters out of the barrel then they level off, then they end up at the target with only a hair of fpe difference.
So a fair enough test, like your two identical Crosmans and legendary versatile shooters they are, I own the 2289, and while it has it's faults like all these (barrel roll with a scope on it, cause of the dumb plastic barrel band), you can upgrade them endlessly, yeah. Some, like mine come with the stock standard but no grips for pistol use "The backpacker" they call it. I like it as a carbine, love it as a carbine actually, it's too big as a pistol. Came with a garbage child size Crosman water bottle and child size backpack, lol. At least I got a tin of pellets (Crosman pointed tip) and some targets. I still have the dumb backpack and I keep the gun and pellets in it. Lol.
Oooo yeah, apocalypse here I come, with my tiny backpack and Crosman .22 carbine, hehehe. It does look pretty cool though now, has a small cheap scope and laser, it's a good shooter, they always were, used the same as a kid. That's how they marketed the thing, this "backpacker". Like you were in the Fallout games. I think they reissued it as a more zombie themed package after that and included zombie splatterblast targets. *eyeroll. Hey, the price was right. You could pay for a Crosman by itself with nothing, or the same price or maybe $5 difference and get the whole package, it was well worth it, even if half the stuff was junk.
Thanks for commenting and watching.
if u guys wanna buy .22 just search on ebay..or in the link he left on his description. i prefer .177 because it goes faster. and further
=
I take starlings at 60+ yards with my 22 benjamin prowler. That's good enough for a air rifle. The plum of feathers exploding and bird dropping confirms my well placed shot. I also have a 177, the slightest wind blows my pellet off course and in my area its no where near as accurate despite its faster speed. In that same 60 yards my pellet may get shifted 6"+ left/right and completely miss my target. If i do connect with the 177 its not an instant kill like my 22.
I just got a Crosman 1377 for my birthday. I am having my grandfather help me sight it in because it shoots ~2" high and ~1.5-2" to the right of my point of aim when shooting from a bench with sandbags. Once I get it sighted in I plan to carry it deer hunting with me for shooting squirrels that come within range or decide to sound the alarm on me. I can do this because deer season occurs during squirrel season here in VERMONT, USA.
Good stuff.
I'm with you John on the air guns. Over here in the UK we have unlicensed air rifles limited to 12ft/lb. At that power level .177 has proved very effective on Rabbit, but certain quarry like rats, and feral pigeon seem to respond better to the larger 22 cal.
Respond = knock down drop dead:)
Sandy
+Wiltshire Man I love my air guns Sandy! Thanks for watching.
Hello Sandy, Fancy seeing you here. Ive always shot .22. If you were buying a new airgun what would you go for? Im about to trade my BSA Ultra for the new Ultra XL, I just cant decide which caliber, decisions........
Hi Ian,
I don't do as much shooting these days but for sub 12ft/lb have always favoured the .177 provided you can hit the spot it will kill well. My quarry was mostly rabbit but for rats and feral pigeon the 22 did seem more effective.