Bit of a mix up with TH-cam release on this one I'm afraid. a little like number nine buses, nothing then two come along at the same time?? www.aar-onair.com visit www.vector-air.co.uk
Andy, how about a practical demo using different calibre/weight pellets fired at a sheet of plywood at 40m and 20m, showing penetration achieved by each shot? Just a thought.
@@petetimbrell3527 Not a bad test for quick and dirty, but it will not tell you much technically. Measuring fps, (and figuring out fpe), through a crony at those yards will. You can bet the highest fpe will do the most damage to a piece of plywood. Of course, different pellet designs make a difference too, even if they are the same weight and speed, like that "hornet" pellet with a metal tip.
@@EarthSurferUSA - It would be a reasonable demo, but I also hear you. As long as the shots are all hitting the same, uniform sheet of plywood though (in different places obviously) then its a fair field-test for people who don't have access to a chrono, but can see on screen for themselves the energy delivered to the target panel. Agreed that different pellet types/materials will make a difference but the shooter should expect a pointed tip to penetrate the plywood more than a wadcutter, and lead to go deeper than, say, aluminum. I'm waiting for depleted uranium pellets haha ! Btw, can ya hang 10 while surfing on a whole planet? I'd watch that.
I have to give Andy big props. As an engineer myself, I can see that there are only a handful of guys on YT who do good tests and provide good solid, scientific information,---and Andy is right up there with the best. "Let see how many full beer cans this pellet will go through", will never be one of Andy's vids. :) Kudos sir. Doug in Michigan USA.
@GameliEL Auceps ah yes, this confused me too for some time. it actually means to give "propers" or more easy to understand "proper respect" or maybe i just made that up, i dunno.
Thanks for all the great advice Andy. I am currently going to purchase a bullpup air rifle for target work, and as we live rurally, a spot of pest control, and your advice and suggestions have gone a long way to help with my decision making. As an aside, I am currently fighting cancer, and the time I have passed listening to your dulcet tones as I fight on. Keep up the good work my mate, and thank you for helping the hours go by with great information, and advice. Take care, and stay safe, Quo
It took me until the 16 minute mark to realize that’s not a window behind him. I’m impressed with the drop cloth background. Nice touch. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. Cheers.
Excellent presentation. Old adage: If you don't hit them in the right place, it matters little what caliber you use. If you do hit them in the right place, it matters even less.
@@allanwind295 even at power the .177 is,nt the right caliber for the pest species you listed . any good shooter will know what caliber for the job in hand
As a retired math/computer teacher I very much appreciate your statistical presentation. Thanks for all the work you have been willing to invest to get these results!
Interesting information and thank you. Having been a huge fan of Air rifles and pistols since 10 years old, when my Dad bought for me as a Christmas present a Diana 177 rifle. Since then and over the last 54 years, I've owned many Rifles and some highly collectable ones too, BSA Centenary and Stutzen being some of my favorites classics. The reason all of the above is mentioned is because I found over the years, that the 177 cal pellet, across all of my sub 12ftlbs guns was more accurate, carried the velocity and did the job the other end, so I agree with all Andy has said. 👍
Andy this was excellent. Being a newbie to airgunning, I've often wondered about the differences in calibre, and you helped me out with many of the questions that I had. I can only imagine the amount of work and time that you spent on making this particular video, and I want to let you know that your efforts are absolutely appreciated! Well done and thank you.
Remember the review is about Vermin control. Competition target shooting is in 177 caliber. What Andy does not say is that 177 pellets are more affected by wind over distance than 22
Looking at this from the "other side of the pond" - though we can use 20 ft. lb. guns where I live, this info is still very valuable, giving me much food for thought. I haven't shot for years, and am just getting started (w/springers - I'll get it down yet), and I must say Andy's videos are some of the most valuable I've seen. Thanks, Andy, for cutting through the nonsense and offering sensible advice - and it's also pleasant to have it delivered by such an agreeable gentleman.
Im watching this just now only ever had 22 rifles sub12 recently got Hw95k in 177 and an 80 in 22 off a mate as i couldn't resist its custom thumbhole stock 80 shoot's so smooth but feel its slightly over 12 limmit and the 95 seems very jumpy/kicky but would definitely not be over 12 as was picked up from Blackpool airguns who chronograph everything. Thinking of getting them sent off to sandwel field sports to be tuned. Also kinda wishing id seen their jack snipe in .20 before ingot the 95 as now i want one of them too after watching this 😅
Sir, having been a operational police officer operating with Beretta 92F’s and MP5,s…… all 9mm…..this video is brilliant. You have explained ballistics so well. Once again so accurate. Kind regards Ken. Hats off, as they used to say.
An in depth and measured explanation that’s been so lacking on this emotive subject, lol. Top work Andy, thank you. 👍🏼 (for the record, I’m reassured that my .22 coupled with an effective scope is up to the job) At the end of the day it’s all about personal preference, there is no right or wrong answer, so long as you’re aware of the subtle differences.
very good, clarity, informative , not rattling on too fast as our u.s.a friends do or difficult to understand pigeon english. enjoy your videos, very helpfull.
Thanks Andy for another great presentation. For me its .22 (JSB Exact) at 13.43 grains. I get 619 to 625 fps on average and they are accurate-ish out to about 40 yards beyond which the groups open up. At this range the pellet can still pass straight through a tin can which is power enough from my 1987 HW35 Export!
My brain hurts now..... Great discussion Andy, we all have our favourite calibre but like you say its accuracy which matters over everything. Cheers and keep safe.
That was an excellent presentation. No preaching, no nonsense delivery of facts with a little previous experience information added. I do enjoy your videos. You must spend a fair bit of time in your editing, this one was very slick. Mrs AAR must have kept you well supplied with coffees.
I have both .177 and .22 but I do prefer .22 on the whole, the first airguns I practiced with were .22, larger pellets are a little bit easier to handle, holes in targets are a bit easier to see, the transfer of energy to the pellet is more efficient, slightly less muzzle report and .22 just 'thumps' a bit harder. I understand a flatter trajectory is better for accuracy at different distances but for shooting the occasional rat in my garden the distance isn't an issue as they appear under the bird feeder or by the shed.
That's the thing, for sub 12 ft lbs you'd have to be a very good shot to be doing successful pest control at a distance that the difference in trajectory between .177 & .22 would matter. I think as well if you are that good you'd know the calibration of the scope with holdover, under, etc.
Elma Keith ( father of the .44 Mag) was asked " what is the best calibre?" He replied " The one you can hit things with " reply " what ? " Keith said " a . 177 air rifle pellet in the brain is more life threatening than a .50 Browning in the foot , It's where the hole is that's important, not the calibre ".
It gets a little more complicated when ballistics and suppressive fire are important. And if you're a competition shooter where ricochet trick shots are a thing.... Oh boy 😅
I have 177 and 22 I always use standard dome pellets in both but I use the 22 for pest control and target shooting it’s very accurate and I’m not sure why I even brought the 177. Maybe because I use my 22 for target shooting all the time I have no problem in accuracy when pest controlling so it all comes down to practice and knowing your rifle.
Being an American, this is both super weird and AWESOME. Spelling is different, things are called different things, it's just overall cool. I've always wanted to go to the UK and can't wait till I'm old enough to do so!!!
@@BossTweed69 No where is all that, but part of travel is seeing how things are different from place to place. Not better or worse but different in some ways.
@@vincemcmahonreadskoran3120 Very true, I always say to Americans, don't just go to London! 2-3 Days you could cover a lot of the sights...pay £6-£8 a pint in a few pubs, But if you've got a week or better 2, there's Cambridge, Lincon, York, Newcastle, Durham. Northumberland coast is beautiful, Bambraugh, Linfesfarne, Seahouses. Same goes for the Jurassic Coast down south like, my first road trip we went to Devon but I picked up my late in London, camped in New Forest first night, Dorset next, had a night in Seaton then down to Newton Abbott.
In my opinion... both haha. I’ve taken small game to racoon and groundhog easily with one shot kills with both 177 and 22. It’s all about shot placement. With airguns i find it best to put a round through the brain. Airguns are definitely overlooked and mocked by powder burner shooters. I think airguns are actually a better way to hunt small game and pests. Sure power and less down range energy than a rim fire. But I find it more fun and much safer hunting with an airgun. Just my opinion.
Here (Norway) you are limited to only 0.177 (4.5mm) unless you get a license. There is however no limit on the energy, only diameter and air/co2 as propellant. There is a 18 year age limit, but you can apply to be exempt from the day you turn 16. This sort of makes all the heavier .177 more reasonable as it is then possible to get these up to useful speeds for proper trajectories.
I use high power air rifle in 4.5mm (.177) with heavier pellets (jsb monster or beast) just to stay subsonic and I have a great results both hunting and target shooting. Very nice review btw
Excellent video and information Andy thank you. I will agree with you on the .177 and 10.34 jsb heavies and hades. Both work fantastically well for rabbits and squirrels for me. Better groups for the jsb heavies when doing doing target work but the hades are a great pellet out to 40 yards
This is not as important in the USA that does not place arbitrary limitations on the power level. That being said, you did a cracking job with your explanation in order to get the most with the power allotted. The flatter trajectory is very important in hit ability on one hand but the heavier projectiles carry the energy better. If one were to look up videos of actual uses of .177 cal pellets on rabbits and birds, he will be satisfied of its ability to dispatch small animals. Thank you for such an informative video and the bang up job on the visual aids.
Many, many years ago, I used to go hunting with air rifles. And I'm talking 35 odd years ago now. I used to have an FWB Sport in .177 that was Venom tuned to over 11.5ft lbs (I can't recall it exactly now.). But we used, I had a friend with the same set up, a .177 pellet that was about 10 point something grains. I think it was an H&N pellet, but I could be wrong. Regardless. We only ever shot that same gun with the same pellets ALL the time. We never changed. We'd zero in at 30 yards (Meter's were never used back then!) and once zeroed in, we'd set up targets at 40 yds and 20 yds and without the need to change anything on the tele sights, we'd adjust our shooting to get good, and very accurate results. What I'm say is, it doesn't matter what gun, pellet, scope setup you have, you have to practice to get good results and don't change. Keep practising with a set up you're confident with and it'll all come together. As a side note. My best shot was on a woody that was sat on a barn at 55 to 60 yards. We were in a hid in the middle of a field and the woody laded on the barn behind us. Behind the barn, were fields and fields. It was a still day. it was a safe shot (Which is of the utmost important point in shooting. Always Shoot Safely.). I aimed at the Woody. Adjusted for range. Pulled the trigger and the Woody dropped to the ground. Stone dead.
Only tried two specific hunting pellets at .177 on a HW97. Tested for accuracy at 30 yards I found the JSB Hades very disappointing with poor grouping. The discussions on the forums confirm this. The H&N Barracuda Hunter Extreme on the other hand was as accurate as a FT pellet.
Just found your channel. A breath of fresh air in that you use lots of eaily followed figures (so long as any viewer understands simple maths and physics, although a brief video explaining momentum might help those who struggle. Maybe? Or maybe not?). Thanks
I live in USA and have all the calibers too. Just purchased a HW 77 in .177. I'm waiting on delivery so I can only say factory specs claim (up to) 950fps. I picked .177 for the flatter trajectory. Great videos BTW.
Hi Andy! I both have a powerful .177 and a .22 cal, and i tested this yesterday. My .22 delivers a good ammount of knockdown power but poor penetration in a 2 inch plywood with regular 15-16gr pellets, so i decided to try out a 15gr slug on my .177 cal, and it penetrated the 2 inch plywood with an extreme ammount of knockdown power and a slam to the boards and the exit wound was devastating, and i calculated it that my .177 cal with a 15gr slug delivered more speed and ft/lbs than my .22 airgun, and that’s where i start to think about why slugs are made for .177 cals.. as long as your .177 air gun is powerful enough to manage sending a heavy slug away, it will take your .22’s place instantly, both when it comes to speed, accuracy, range, and penetration.. and even ft/lbs depending on your slugs grain that can go up extremley heavy for .177’s. I am choosing my .177cal loaded in slugs for hunting instead of my .22
Great video with solid information. Like you I use more than 1 calibre but for me my favourite is my .20 in my sub 12 fp. I first used a .20 some 20 years ago and since then have always kept one in my cabinet. Yes there is less choice in pellets but that said I've had good results with both JSB and H&N from my rifles, The JSB's are a little heavier so seem to hit harder and group the best (although we're talking only very slightly tighter from my air ranger) so are generally my go to pellet.
Horses for courses , I do pest control at work , 177 walther RM8 all day long for outside work and a crosman ratty 22 for everything in buildings zero to 15M , fast and accurate for outside and slower punch for inside (don`t want holes in the roof now )
Excellent explanation and summary of the details. I now have the understanding to make an informed decision when I purchase my gun. P.S. I prefer the modern term ‘retained energy’ rather than the old rather vague phrase ‘stopping power’. Just a change in terminology provides clarity. Good vid.
.177 out of a springer works just fine for squirrels (big ones in New York State). As long as the person shooting has good aim. Head or heart shot, and it's over pretty fast.
After reviewing the points made and specifications provided I can only come to one conclusion ... Thank goodness here in the USA we have no FPE restrictions 😬🇺🇸
There's no power restrictions in the UK either if you get your FAC. Anyone who wants to go high power, can just get their certificate and they can buy whatever air rifle they want.
Yes indeed it has been useful to me as I have been on the 177 vs .22 dilemma for ratting (As a newbie) and now I am satisfied with going with a 177 rifle, thanks for another great informative video.
Hello again from the states. Another top notch video. I learn a lot from you sir so, thank you. My air guns are .177 up to 357 cal. I enjoy them all but at the end of an air-gun target shooting day, my .177's always seem to be in my hand! I just purchased the Air Venturi Avenger PCP in .25 cal. I was blown away! What an affordable beast! 980fps with a 25.4 grain pellet, and this was my first shot out of the box with the factory presets! The accuracy is mind boggling...as is the low price of $299.00 US! Can you do a review? I believe its marketed world wide but it may carry a different name .Thanks you again Andy for a quality channel with quality and enjoyable content! Looking forward to the .25 stuff you mentioned in this video too! Cheers!
I am in complete agreement with you. Same argument in big game hunting applies; hitting where you aim is everything. For me and perhaps others who have to watch their money, the .177 offers the best price in ammo so that I can shoot a lot. Shooting your rifle a lot leads to that accuracy you should be looking for. Absolutely nothing beats trigger time. I have a couple of new spring guns on the way and would be very interested in a source of "sample packs".
You're totally right, there are many arguments for all of the above but if you can't hit the target then you might as well not bother, as an average shooter then .177 suits me because it gives me the best chance of hitting my target and at 30/40 yards I can confirm that a dead rabbit doesn't care that it doesn't have feathers because it's dead
Fantastic analysis of the never ending argument! I like both to be honest. .22 presents more of a challenge at distance. But i only tend to shoot up to 30ish yards so using .22 is ideal. Ive dropped a shot with .177 and vermin can just run off. .22 seems to dump way more of its energy into the target and gives you a bit more peace of mind if you drop the shot slightly. Nothing wrong with .177 if your shot placement is bang on. So much easier at the range too.
Personally sub 12 ft lbs I’m firmly in the .177 camp higher power .22 or larger cal .25 or more. I’m not saying this is right for everyone it’s just my right. And I think that’s the whole point everybody has to find their own rights and wrongs. Unfortunately as helpful as this advice from Andy is, and it is. Everyone has to find their own way using Andy’s findings is a great baseline it gives people a head start. Lastly I couldn’t argue his findings I’m pretty much on the same page.
Really enjoy your videos mate, you’re a joy to watch! We like your style, your personality and think you and Mrs AA are lovely. God bless you mate. We only shoot targets though (animal lovers here, we leave them be.)
Thanks. I have inherited a HW 100 in .177 my father used for club target. I need to find the right pellet but will try the hades. JSB for me anyway. Although I have found Crosman premier very good at rabbit despatch compared to the airarms 15.9g from JSB. JSB RS Express light weight .22 also give a nice flat trajectory if they suit your barrel.
Thanx for this information at its best. I take the lesson, that it is best to learn/think about physics and ballistics and to practice out what's the best for my needs - for what ever I want to use a gun.
Hi Andy , Congratulations !, You have just attempted to broach a decision/dilemma that has been the subject of discussion and argument probably since the advent of air rifles . You have conveyed most if not all of the pertinent information in a manner that should be understandable to most people and not skimped on facts or focused simply on personal preference , this information is vital to the ethical dispatch of quarry and Your enfasis on the need to actually Hit the Target in the right place sums it up nicely . Well Done ! Shoot Straight , Stay Safe & Stay Well .
i owned two BSA R10 177 and 22 , i'd shot a 22 for dozens of years for vermin control and always poo pood the 177 but i'd never really owned one or given it a chance, when i joined a target club i bought the 177 r10. lets just say after a couple of weeks the 22 hardly saw the light of day again, my main pastime was rabbit control, i could take head shots all day long with the .177 out to fifty yards ( i did re zero at fifty as i shot across a little ravine which was exactly 50 yrd from lip to lip on one of my permissions) a very accurate rifle. the calibre argument isnt limited to air rifles, i now shoot centre fire and hear all the time from those that say a .243 (6mm) isnt enough for large deer especially reds, well the ones i have shot with it would tend to disagree ! too often increased calibre is touted as being favourable....usually by those that cant hit a barn door at 100 yrds and think extra mass equates to better killing power, a 50 call centre fire will certainly kill a wildebeast even if you hit it in the back leg, but its not nice and its not quick, excellent accuracy and speed beats size every time (within limits)
I’m just now getting back into air guns after 15 years of being without them. I came to the conclusion that I’ll just have both 177 and a 22. I bought a Gamo Wildcat whisper in 177 which will be my main gun and then I got a crosman drifter which is a pistol 22 but it swaps out to a shoulder stock and is easy to carry around. If I’m shooting at a further distance, I’ll use the 177 but if I’m shooting something close by, I’ll use the 22 crosman and that thing surprisingly shoots pretty fast and accurate at closer range 🤷♂️.
Brilliant job - thank you! Just to remark, that even the same gun model prefers different ammo in .177 and .22. E.g my HW90s: JSB Predator Polymag in .177 and RWS Super H-Point in .22...
Respected sir, you have taken much pain in studying and discussing it to us. Thanks for your efforts and made me to understand effectively. God bless you.
Hey, American viewer here. Love seeing pellet and air gun enthusiasts around the world. I am curious. I hear a lot of people in the UK say “point two two” when talking about the calibre but in the states we say “twenty two.” Is it a culture thing? Kinda like “12 bore” vs “12 gauge?”
Bit of a mix up with TH-cam release on this one I'm afraid. a little like number nine buses, nothing then two come along at the same time??
www.aar-onair.com visit www.vector-air.co.uk
Andy, how about a practical demo using different calibre/weight pellets fired at a sheet of plywood at 40m and 20m, showing penetration achieved by each shot? Just a thought.
@@petetimbrell3527 Not a bad test for quick and dirty, but it will not tell you much technically. Measuring fps, (and figuring out fpe), through a crony at those yards will. You can bet the highest fpe will do the most damage to a piece of plywood. Of course, different pellet designs make a difference too, even if they are the same weight and speed, like that "hornet" pellet with a metal tip.
@@EarthSurferUSA - It would be a reasonable demo, but I also hear you.
As long as the shots are all hitting the same, uniform sheet of plywood though (in different places obviously) then its a fair field-test for people who don't have access to a chrono, but can see on screen for themselves the energy delivered to the target panel.
Agreed that different pellet types/materials will make a difference but the shooter should expect a pointed tip to penetrate the plywood more than a wadcutter, and lead to go deeper than, say, aluminum.
I'm waiting for depleted uranium pellets haha !
Btw, can ya hang 10 while surfing on a whole planet? I'd watch that.
No regulations in power in the UK,looks interesting
7 l
"you are only ever under-gunned if you miss'
Col. J. Cooper (RIP)
I have to give Andy big props. As an engineer myself, I can see that there are only a handful of guys on YT who do good tests and provide good solid, scientific information,---and Andy is right up there with the best.
"Let see how many full beer cans this pellet will go through", will never be one of Andy's vids. :) Kudos sir.
Doug in Michigan USA.
That would be a terrible waste of beer.
Sir I am both shocked and saddened at the thought of wasting beer in this way.
@GameliEL Auceps ah yes, this confused me too for some time. it actually means to give "propers" or more easy to understand "proper respect"
or maybe i just made that up, i dunno.
I concur wholeheartedly.
One might even say "mad props" if of the proper age gangsta
Thanks for all the great advice Andy. I am currently going to purchase a bullpup air rifle for target work, and as we live rurally, a spot of pest control, and your advice and suggestions have gone a long way to help with my decision making. As an aside, I am currently fighting cancer, and the time I have passed listening to your dulcet tones as I fight on. Keep up the good work my mate, and thank you for helping the hours go by with great information, and advice. Take care, and stay safe, Quo
It took me until the 16 minute mark to realize that’s not a window behind him. I’m impressed with the drop cloth background. Nice touch. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. Cheers.
I just noticed think I've fallen for it before with the rifle near the window
plants not real either yo
It fooled me anyway.
😂😂😂
Excellent presentation. Old adage: If you don't hit them in the right place, it matters little what caliber you use. If you do hit them in the right place, it matters even less.
True.
You don't want to shoot coyote, deer or hog with a .177 to give extreme examples.
@@allanwind295 even at power the .177 is,nt the right caliber for the pest species you listed . any good shooter will know what caliber for the job in hand
@@allanwind295 I have as yet to see one of those wild in the UK.
@@gordonlawrence1448 you get them in wales
A lot of work clearly went into making this, much appreciated.
Brilliant stuff Andy, the best presentation of this discussion I've either seen or read.
As a retired math/computer teacher I very much appreciate your statistical presentation. Thanks for all the work you have been willing to invest to get these results!
Interesting information and thank you. Having been a huge fan of Air rifles and pistols since 10 years old, when my Dad bought for me as a Christmas present a Diana 177 rifle. Since then and over the last 54 years, I've owned many Rifles and some highly collectable ones too, BSA Centenary and Stutzen being some of my favorites classics. The reason all of the above is mentioned is because I found over the years, that the 177 cal pellet, across all of my sub 12ftlbs guns was more accurate, carried the velocity and did the job the other end, so I agree with all Andy has said. 👍
Andy this was excellent.
Being a newbie to airgunning, I've often wondered about the differences in calibre, and you helped me out with many of the questions that I had.
I can only imagine the amount of work and time that you spent on making this particular video, and I want to let you know that your efforts are absolutely appreciated!
Well done and thank you.
Remember the review is about Vermin control. Competition target shooting is in 177 caliber. What Andy does not say is that 177 pellets are more affected by wind over distance than 22
@@PaulBriden Not so much if you use 'heavy' pellets in .177..ie 10.4 gr as opposed to 8.4 gr std.
@@mkaz3997 True.
Fantastic video. The most comprehensive explanation of calibres and power I have seen. Well done Andy.
Looking at this from the "other side of the pond" - though we can use 20 ft. lb. guns where I live, this info is still very valuable, giving me much food for thought. I haven't shot for years, and am just getting started (w/springers - I'll get it down yet), and I must say Andy's videos are some of the most valuable I've seen. Thanks, Andy, for cutting through the nonsense and offering sensible advice - and it's also pleasant to have it delivered by such an agreeable gentleman.
Air Arms TX200 is an excellent rifle . Very, very accurate and punchy.
This video still contains absolute all relevant information you need to answer this question! Very competent video! Thanks Andi! 👍🏻
Im watching this just now only ever had 22 rifles sub12 recently got Hw95k in 177 and an 80 in 22 off a mate as i couldn't resist its custom thumbhole stock 80 shoot's so smooth but feel its slightly over 12 limmit and the 95 seems very jumpy/kicky but would definitely not be over 12 as was picked up from Blackpool airguns who chronograph everything. Thinking of getting them sent off to sandwel field sports to be tuned. Also kinda wishing id seen their jack snipe in .20 before ingot the 95 as now i want one of them too after watching this 😅
Andy, your presentations and personality are outstanding. Thanks for all the great videos and education you've bestowed upon me.
Sir, having been a operational police officer operating with Beretta 92F’s and MP5,s…… all 9mm…..this video is brilliant. You have explained ballistics so well.
Once again so accurate. Kind regards Ken. Hats off, as they used to say.
Im a sucker for a graph. Loved it. Now I want a 20 cal.
Super helpful info. Thanks for no annoying music.
Greetings from North Carolina, USA. This has been very helpful. Thank you.
Best air guns channel
Just been inspired by the vid. Blue the dust off my 45-year weihrauch. Then realised the gun has stood the test of time but my eyesight hasn't.
🤣 off for a new pair of bins then you're grand!
And with ironsides nothing realy helps aming, neither the reading glasses nor the glasses for distance vision.
But a scope will do the job. ;)
Haha good comment. I have to wear my readers, too.
Time for a shiny new high magnification scope. Only think that will ever stop me is complete blindness. And even then I might still give it a try 😂
'Blue' .. SMH. Although I hope you had a blast!!
An in depth and measured explanation that’s been so lacking on this emotive subject, lol. Top work Andy, thank you. 👍🏼 (for the record, I’m reassured that my .22 coupled with an effective scope is up to the job) At the end of the day it’s all about personal preference, there is no right or wrong answer, so long as you’re aware of the subtle differences.
This is the best explanation of .177 vs .22 you can get anywhere! Also a good video to watch for beginners! Hats off to Andy
very good, clarity, informative , not rattling on too fast as our u.s.a friends do or difficult to understand pigeon english. enjoy your videos, very helpfull.
Thanks Andy for another great presentation. For me its .22 (JSB Exact) at 13.43 grains. I get 619 to 625 fps on average and they are accurate-ish out to about 40 yards beyond which the groups open up. At this range the pellet can still pass straight through a tin can which is power enough from my 1987 HW35 Export!
My brain hurts now.....
Great discussion Andy, we all have our favourite calibre but like you say its accuracy which matters over everything.
Cheers and keep safe.
This was very well presented. As a beginner this video answered a hell of a lot of questions I had . Excellent Thank You.
That was an excellent presentation. No preaching, no nonsense delivery of facts with a little previous experience information added. I do enjoy your videos. You must spend a fair bit of time in your editing, this one was very slick. Mrs AAR must have kept you well supplied with coffees.
Went with the .22 and love it.
I have both .177 and .22 but I do prefer .22 on the whole, the first airguns I practiced with were .22, larger pellets are a little bit easier to handle, holes in targets are a bit easier to see, the transfer of energy to the pellet is more efficient, slightly less muzzle report and .22 just 'thumps' a bit harder. I understand a flatter trajectory is better for accuracy at different distances but for shooting the occasional rat in my garden the distance isn't an issue as they appear under the bird feeder or by the shed.
That's the thing, for sub 12 ft lbs you'd have to be a very good shot to be doing successful pest control at a distance that the difference in trajectory between .177 & .22 would matter. I think as well if you are that good you'd know the calibration of the scope with holdover, under, etc.
thanks andy, keep warm and safe my friend, my weihrauch hw45 in .22 is a good close range pest control. love from cornwall
Elma Keith ( father of the .44 Mag) was asked " what is the best calibre?" He replied " The one you can hit things with " reply " what ? " Keith said " a . 177 air rifle pellet in the brain is more life threatening than a .50 Browning in the foot , It's where the hole is that's important, not the calibre ".
Excellent. Cheers.
True
Great quote mate.
Cheers m8
It gets a little more complicated when ballistics and suppressive fire are important. And if you're a competition shooter where ricochet trick shots are a thing.... Oh boy 😅
My favorite airgun channel!!!
Very informative Sir!!
@@raiwaheed2725 😎
I have 177 and 22 I always use standard dome pellets in both but I use the 22 for pest control and target shooting it’s very accurate and I’m not sure why I even brought the 177. Maybe because I use my 22 for target shooting all the time I have no problem in accuracy when pest controlling so it all comes down to practice and knowing your rifle.
Being an American, this is both super weird and AWESOME. Spelling is different, things are called different things, it's just overall cool. I've always wanted to go to the UK and can't wait till I'm old enough to do so!!!
It isn't all that mate, trust me
@@BossTweed69 No where is all that, but part of travel is seeing how things are different from place to place. Not better or worse but different in some ways.
@@vincemcmahonreadskoran3120 Very true, I always say to Americans, don't just go to London!
2-3 Days you could cover a lot of the sights...pay £6-£8 a pint in a few pubs,
But if you've got a week or better 2, there's Cambridge, Lincon, York, Newcastle, Durham.
Northumberland coast is beautiful, Bambraugh, Linfesfarne, Seahouses.
Same goes for the Jurassic Coast down south like, my first road trip we went to Devon but I picked up my late in London, camped in New Forest first night, Dorset next, had a night in Seaton then down to Newton Abbott.
It’s called English, not American
@@davidharris4062 but I'm not English. That would imply that I am from the UK. I am am indeed American. 😌
In my opinion... both haha. I’ve taken small game to racoon and groundhog easily with one shot kills with both 177 and 22. It’s all about shot placement. With airguns i find it best to put a round through the brain. Airguns are definitely overlooked and mocked by powder burner shooters. I think airguns are actually a better way to hunt small game and pests. Sure power and less down range energy than a rim fire. But I find it more fun and much safer hunting with an airgun. Just my opinion.
You may not say both, if you had to abide by the sub 12ft lb rule.
Much quieter too
I agree ☝️
It also cheaper to shoot pellets verses powder round, especially these days!
@@fisheyeguy but you can say both as 22 and 177 can be had in sub 12ftlb
Learn on a .22, then you get the eye and understanding for the arc.
.177 is easy after that!
Great vid.
Nice to see the case made in a clear and logical way with some useful data to back it up. Cheers
Just what I needed to crystallise a decision. Thank you.
Here (Norway) you are limited to only 0.177 (4.5mm) unless you get a license. There is however no limit on the energy, only diameter and air/co2 as propellant.
There is a 18 year age limit, but you can apply to be exempt from the day you turn 16.
This sort of makes all the heavier .177 more reasonable as it is then possible to get these up to useful speeds for proper trajectories.
Born and raised on the south downs flinging .22 into rabbits.
I wont change!
Super modded 2250 with push pin release stock is my go to poacher.
Ah Ah! I saw this before - I’m not on any preview list that I’m aware of - good to see you Andy!
Love the foldable background lol. Nice presentation as always.
I use high power air rifle in 4.5mm (.177) with heavier pellets (jsb monster or beast) just to stay subsonic and I have a great results both hunting and target shooting. Very nice review btw
Excellent video and information Andy thank you. I will agree with you on the .177 and 10.34 jsb heavies and hades. Both work fantastically well for rabbits and squirrels for me. Better groups for the jsb heavies when doing doing target work but the hades are a great pellet out to 40 yards
Andy, the JSB Hades will be available in the first quarter of 2021 in .30.
very well explained Andy
My Diana bandit /chaser fusion loves the Hades 22. . They are fantastic .
This is not as important in the USA that does not place arbitrary limitations on the power level. That being said, you did a cracking job with your explanation in order to get the most with the power allotted. The flatter trajectory is very important in hit ability on one hand but the heavier projectiles carry the energy better. If one were to look up videos of actual uses of .177 cal pellets on rabbits and birds, he will be satisfied of its ability to dispatch small animals. Thank you for such an informative video and the bang up job on the visual aids.
i love 177 .. used it for years
Many, many years ago, I used to go hunting with air rifles. And I'm talking 35 odd years ago now. I used to have an FWB Sport in .177 that was Venom tuned to over 11.5ft lbs (I can't recall it exactly now.).
But we used, I had a friend with the same set up, a .177 pellet that was about 10 point something grains. I think it was an H&N pellet, but I could be wrong.
Regardless. We only ever shot that same gun with the same pellets ALL the time. We never changed. We'd zero in at 30 yards (Meter's were never used back then!) and once zeroed in, we'd set up targets at 40 yds and 20 yds and without the need to change anything on the tele sights, we'd adjust our shooting to get good, and very accurate results.
What I'm say is, it doesn't matter what gun, pellet, scope setup you have, you have to practice to get good results and don't change. Keep practising with a set up you're confident with and it'll all come together.
As a side note. My best shot was on a woody that was sat on a barn at 55 to 60 yards. We were in a hid in the middle of a field and the woody laded on the barn behind us. Behind the barn, were fields and fields. It was a still day. it was a safe shot (Which is of the utmost important point in shooting. Always Shoot Safely.). I aimed at the Woody. Adjusted for range. Pulled the trigger and the Woody dropped to the ground. Stone dead.
What's a woody?
@@gmc1966 Woodpigeon.
Not some pervert flashing his erect manhood about! 🤔😲 😅🤣😂
@@gmc1966 Presumably a wood pigeon, not a woodpecker.
Only tried two specific hunting pellets at .177 on a HW97. Tested for accuracy at 30 yards I found the JSB Hades very disappointing with poor grouping. The discussions on the forums confirm this. The H&N Barracuda Hunter Extreme on the other hand was as accurate as a FT pellet.
you are a brave man to tackle this one well done loved the video
Just found your channel.
A breath of fresh air in that you use lots of eaily followed figures (so long as any viewer understands simple maths and physics, although a brief video explaining momentum might help those who struggle. Maybe? Or maybe not?).
Thanks
I live in USA and have all the calibers too. Just purchased a HW 77 in .177. I'm waiting on delivery so I can only say factory specs claim (up to) 950fps. I picked .177 for the flatter trajectory. Great videos BTW.
Excellent... thank you.
Hi from Greece, yes I have a US flag I'm a Greek-American but I currently live in Greece and I love it
great info, I had to pause alot to convert the metric over to USA. Worth it!!!!
Love the channel Andy! Also, your accent makes everything sound more legit!
Hi Andy! I both have a powerful .177 and a .22 cal, and i tested this yesterday. My .22 delivers a good ammount of knockdown power but poor penetration in a 2 inch plywood with regular 15-16gr pellets, so i decided to try out a 15gr slug on my .177 cal, and it penetrated the 2 inch plywood with an extreme ammount of knockdown power and a slam to the boards and the exit wound was devastating, and i calculated it that my .177 cal with a 15gr slug delivered more speed and ft/lbs than my .22 airgun, and that’s where i start to think about why slugs are made for .177 cals.. as long as your .177 air gun is powerful enough to manage sending a heavy slug away, it will take your .22’s place instantly, both when it comes to speed, accuracy, range, and penetration.. and even ft/lbs depending on your slugs grain that can go up extremley heavy for .177’s. I am choosing my .177cal loaded in slugs for hunting instead of my .22
I agree with you ... for what it's worth.
Interesting
Huh did not know this. U Kno I'm getting slugs soon then. Thank u my good sir
I guess it depends on the gun. No way my daisy powerline 1000 .177 and gamo silent cat .177 has more power than my gamo magnum .22.
Love the stats. These are the tables one should show in comparative reviews rather than subjective comments. 👏
Hi Andy, good to see your videos again. I just purchased an air rifle. But I purchased a.177 caliber rifle. Only because it's cheaper than a real fun.
Great video with solid information. Like you I use more than 1 calibre but for me my favourite is my .20 in my sub 12 fp. I first used a .20 some 20 years ago and since then have always kept one in my cabinet. Yes there is less choice in pellets but that said I've had good results with both JSB and H&N from my rifles, The JSB's are a little heavier so seem to hit harder and group the best (although we're talking only very slightly tighter from my air ranger) so are generally my go to pellet.
Horses for courses , I do pest control at work , 177 walther RM8 all day long for outside work and a crosman ratty 22 for everything in buildings zero to 15M , fast and accurate for outside and slower punch for inside (don`t want holes in the roof now )
Excellent explanation and summary of the details. I now have the understanding to make an informed decision when I purchase my gun. P.S. I prefer the modern term ‘retained energy’ rather than the old rather vague phrase ‘stopping power’. Just a change in terminology provides clarity. Good vid.
.177 out of a springer works just fine for squirrels (big ones in New York State). As long as the person shooting has good aim. Head or heart shot, and it's over pretty fast.
After reviewing the points made and specifications provided I can only come to one conclusion ... Thank goodness here in the USA we have no FPE restrictions 😬🇺🇸
not yet
There's no power restrictions in the UK either if you get your FAC. Anyone who wants to go high power, can just get their certificate and they can buy whatever air rifle they want.
Yes indeed it has been useful to me as I have been on the 177 vs .22 dilemma for ratting (As a newbie) and now I am satisfied with going with a 177 rifle, thanks for another great informative video.
My "if I had to choose a single option" preference is the same as yours - .177 with Hades or JSB Heavies.
Great video, very informative and will be watching more of your videos.
Hello again from the states. Another top notch video. I learn a lot from you sir so, thank you. My air guns are .177 up to 357 cal. I enjoy them all but at the end of an air-gun target shooting day, my .177's always seem to be in my hand! I just purchased the Air Venturi Avenger PCP in .25 cal. I was blown away! What an affordable beast! 980fps with a 25.4 grain pellet, and this was my first shot out of the box with the factory presets! The accuracy is mind boggling...as is the low price of $299.00 US! Can you do a review? I believe its marketed world wide but it may carry a different name .Thanks you again Andy for a quality channel with quality and enjoyable content! Looking forward to the .25 stuff you mentioned in this video too! Cheers!
Well that's about as detailed as you can want. Thanks for the info.
I am in complete agreement with you. Same argument in big game hunting applies; hitting where you aim is everything. For me and perhaps others who have to watch their money, the .177 offers the best price in ammo so that I can shoot a lot. Shooting your rifle a lot leads to that accuracy you should be looking for. Absolutely nothing beats trigger time. I have a couple of new spring guns on the way and would be very interested in a source of "sample packs".
Excellent video; one of your best. Thanks!
You're totally right, there are many arguments for all of the above but if you can't hit the target then you might as well not bother, as an average shooter then .177 suits me because it gives me the best chance of hitting my target and at 30/40 yards I can confirm that a dead rabbit doesn't care that it doesn't have feathers because it's dead
Fantastic analysis of the never ending argument! I like both to be honest. .22 presents more of a challenge at distance. But i only tend to shoot up to 30ish yards so using .22 is ideal. Ive dropped a shot with .177 and vermin can just run off. .22 seems to dump way more of its energy into the target and gives you a bit more peace of mind if you drop the shot slightly. Nothing wrong with .177 if your shot placement is bang on. So much easier at the range too.
Personally sub 12 ft lbs I’m firmly in the .177 camp higher power .22 or larger cal .25 or more. I’m not saying this is right for everyone it’s just my right. And I think that’s the whole point everybody has to find their own rights and wrongs. Unfortunately as helpful as this advice from Andy is, and it is. Everyone has to find their own way using Andy’s findings is a great baseline it gives people a head start. Lastly I couldn’t argue his findings I’m pretty much on the same page.
I run the JSB Hades through my FX Crown and they are one of the best, if not the best hunting pellet I have ever used.
Great review, thank you.
Excellent video, answers alot of questions
There is 'no' best IMO. I shoot both, and prefer .177 for hunting. I like the flatter trajectory.
Thanks Bro, I learned a hell-of-a-lot in the last 1/2 hr.
You make a great talk show host.
I think I’ve become an AAR groupie! Nice Ficus.
Really enjoy your videos mate, you’re a joy to watch!
We like your style, your personality and think you and Mrs AA are lovely.
God bless you mate.
We only shoot targets though (animal lovers here, we leave them be.)
Thanks. I have inherited a HW 100 in .177 my father used for club target. I need to find the right pellet but will try the hades. JSB for me anyway. Although I have found Crosman premier very good at rabbit despatch compared to the airarms 15.9g from JSB.
JSB RS Express light weight .22 also give a nice flat trajectory if they suit your barrel.
Schöne grüße aus Deutschland.Ich finde Deine Presentation einfach toll.Ein Fan aus Germany. Herbert
Thanx for this information at its best. I take the lesson, that it is best to learn/think about physics and ballistics and to practice out what's the best for my needs - for what ever I want to use a gun.
just found your channel... enjoying the reviews good real world opinions, thanks!
Superb video, you just summed up years of shooting experience in sub 12 in 20mins.....
No right or wrong just application. 👍
Good informative video, will save novices a great deal of time and money.
Hi Andy , Congratulations !, You have just attempted to broach a decision/dilemma that has been the subject of discussion and argument probably since the advent of air rifles . You have conveyed most if not all of the pertinent information in a manner that should be understandable to most people and not skimped on facts or focused simply on personal preference , this information is vital to the ethical dispatch of quarry and Your enfasis on the need to actually Hit the Target in the right place sums it up nicely . Well Done ! Shoot Straight , Stay Safe & Stay Well .
i owned two BSA R10 177 and 22 , i'd shot a 22 for dozens of years for vermin control and always poo pood the 177 but i'd never really owned one or given it a chance, when i joined a target club i bought the 177 r10. lets just say after a couple of weeks the 22 hardly saw the light of day again, my main pastime was rabbit control, i could take head shots all day long with the .177 out to fifty yards ( i did re zero at fifty as i shot across a little ravine which was exactly 50 yrd from lip to lip on one of my permissions) a very accurate rifle. the calibre argument isnt limited to air rifles, i now shoot centre fire and hear all the time from those that say a .243 (6mm) isnt enough for large deer especially reds, well the ones i have shot with it would tend to disagree ! too often increased calibre is touted as being favourable....usually by those that cant hit a barn door at 100 yrds and think extra mass equates to better killing power, a 50 call centre fire will certainly kill a wildebeast even if you hit it in the back leg, but its not nice and its not quick, excellent accuracy and speed beats size every time (within limits)
I’m just now getting back into air guns after 15 years of being without them. I came to the conclusion that I’ll just have both 177 and a 22. I bought a Gamo Wildcat whisper in 177 which will be my main gun and then I got a crosman drifter which is a pistol 22 but it swaps out to a shoulder stock and is easy to carry around. If I’m shooting at a further distance, I’ll use the 177 but if I’m shooting something close by, I’ll use the 22 crosman and that thing surprisingly shoots pretty fast and accurate at closer range 🤷♂️.
Brilliant job - thank you! Just to remark, that even the same gun model prefers different ammo in .177 and .22. E.g my HW90s: JSB Predator Polymag in .177 and RWS Super H-Point in .22...
Respected sir, you have taken much pain in studying and discussing it to us. Thanks for your efforts and made me to understand effectively. God bless you.
As I thought, stick with my JSB heavies 10.34gr in .177. thanks Andy
D34DSHOT 100% right mate - highly accurate and deliver up to 60 yards no problem. Same as bisley magnums or hn variations
@@TargetBreaker1234 the only 2 pellets I use are JSB heavy and bis mags.
Hey, American viewer here. Love seeing pellet and air gun enthusiasts around the world. I am curious. I hear a lot of people in the UK say “point two two” when talking about the calibre but in the states we say “twenty two.” Is it a culture thing? Kinda like “12 bore” vs “12 gauge?”
Excellent info, knowledge Sir,, THANK YOU,,, You have taught us well and how to proceed,,, Enjoy the hobby,,,,, God bless,,
My .177. Does an excellent job of pest control. Used within its limits of course , like any other tool. I wouldn’t hunt bear with a stick.