I bought a box of Black Talons when they first came out and used them as my carry ammo. A few months later they were discontinued, so I put them back in the original box. Still have them. The Winchester Ranger T is the same projectile without the black coating.
I always liked black talons. Thank goodness Winchester is still making awesome ammo choices even today. I was sad to see black talons go but most of winchesters current 9mm offerings preform pretty awesome. Nice video and fair test.
You can get Ranger T law enforcement ammo that is a more modern SXT and outperforms the Talons. Knowing someone in law enforcement is an easy way to get them.
Fresh member. My father is a Korean war Vet with dementia & I wanted you to know how much we really do appreciate watching your channel. 1 of the few things he can put together in his mind & enjoy with my son & I. Gid bless you.
Always heard good things about the black talon, but I think the ranger T was king back in the day. HST seems to be top dog currently so thanks for comparing one of the old best and the new best
Pretty sure that the Ranger T was a redesigned Black Talon without the scary black coating and different cut to the jacket to do a way with the sharper pointy bits when expanded.
@@Centurion-st5pe yup, you are correct. Ranger T is nasty! And it’s black talon just not black anymore. My brother is on CSPD and that’s what they use. I kinda wonder how nuts CSPD’s weapons choosers are or whoever is in charge is. They use ranger +p+ in smith and Wesson M&P 2.0’s. I’m positive S&W recommends against this as they are not 9mm major barrels. Lol but then they also opted to use cheytac 408 as their anti material sniper round for SWAT to prevent bad publicity if the papers ever reported on a crazy SWAT engagement. They figure most people won’t know how crazy or expensive that round is but if they heard 50 caliber your average liberal would freak out thinking a swat team was using 50 cal on citizens. They also say no one can use EOtech as a permanent department policy ever since EOtech had their controversy and finally their SWAT also uses H&K MP7’s. That gun is a unicorn that basically no citizen could find so they kinda know what they are doing with guns and ammo selection. Supposedly they are one of the best SWAT’s in the country and if that same department is using Ranger +p+ then maybe it still is king? Sorry for the ramble just found all of that fascinating when I talked with my bro about all of their munitions and firearms selections and reasoning behind some of it.
I have a buddy that bought $20,000 in ammo from a family friend last year. The actual owner passed away and his wife contacted my buddy and his dad. Long story short there were 400 .357 magnum black talon rounds in that lot. Dork sold them for less than a dollar a round. 😶 I tried to tell him, but sometimes people won't listen.
@@PatRMG He was so interested in offloading as much of that stuff as he could he wouldn't listen to reason. He actually said he was surprised at how quickly they sold. He had them online for less than an hour. 🤬
Black Talons are very effective especially when they first came out. In the early 90's. Very effective got to see them perform out of a Glock 17 into ballistic tank at HPD. Came out as advertised. Lots of officers carried them. At the time you had very little selection of HP - Silver tips, Black Talons, Hi Shoks, Hyrda Shoks, Golden Sabres, and Gold Dots. Now you have these plus a few other offerings. SD has evolved for sure. It was also known that once hit with these it was difficult to remove from the human body without removing more flesh, and tissue to successfully remove them due to the claw effect. Thanks for testing and oresting your findings. These are still effective and deadly. ♠️🎩☯️🏁
Black Talon in 180 gr .357 is still my carry load in a Ruger SP-101. A little spicy but manageable. Same load for 30 years. I'm down to my last box so eventually I'll update. But it won't be an upgrade. I had a bunch in .45 ACP and 9mm back in the day but shot them all up long ago. SXT was nearly identical, minus the Lubalox coating, nickel plated brass and sealed primer pockets. That attention to detail ensured the Black Talons would remain reliable for years in duty carry, in an era when leather was still the main material for holsters and accessory pouches.
I did a lot of water jug "tests" back in 1992-1993 with these before they were taken off the market....running a lot of them through a Beretta 92FS I bought new in '92, when I was watching Lethal Weapon a lot :)
@@PatRMG That Beretta? Naw....that one got traded in on a new Glock Model 22 in late 1993. That was another life..another wife, and before I was the dad of any of our grown 5 boys...much less a grandfather of 6. That was before the war and before the peace. There was zero chance of hanging onto a gun all those years with me...though I REALLY wish I still had that Marlin 1894 .44 Magnum I had in 1992, I did buy a new Beretta 92A1 earlier in 2021, but quickly decided the A1 rail was more of a hindrance when it came to holster availability, and IT became one of my current Cimarron SAA clones. I'd like to have another 92FS/M9 without the rail...though I have 2 9mm's more than I care about 9mm's to own. Those being a Taurus G3 and a new, unfired Coyote Tan GX4. I picked up the GX4 the same day I also bought a new, as of yet unfired, SDS/Tisas GI spec 1911 in .45 acp. The GI spec 1911 in .45 acp is about the only autoloading pistol I really like....mayble "love" a little.
@@PatRMG back when they first came out, those suckers flew off the shelves lickety split! The media hype was so high and how devastating the black talons were and are. But hell, for self protection, I’m not here to merely piss off a criminal who’s about to come after me.
The reverse taper simply means the jacket in the nose of the bullet is thicker than in the sides, to prevent overexpansion. The public/media was more obsessed with the "razor sharp" claws.
Thanks for your video Pat. I bought eight boxes of Black Talon years ago - before they got their bad rap. I carry them in several small 9mm pistols including my Walther PPS and SIG 365.
I have the Walther 4.5" PDP and it's been my favorite polymer pistol EVER! She's now seen over 4k rounds of practically every popular round out there with some abstract on the side, "0 steel case because I love my babies and feed and clean them with love". The barrel is still WAY more accurate than I'll ever be, the trigger spring is still good and healthy and the feed ramp & barrel chamber are still as nice and shiny as the day I brought her home. What I'm most surprised with is that the polymer guide rod and super thin spring is still better than ever. When I first got the gun I thought that after so many rounds the guide rod would be the first part replaced. Amazing gun.
I have several boxes of Black Talons in a few calibers. I bought them from a vendor at a gun show in Florida back in the early 2000's. It's crazy how this ammo gained such an ominous name for itself. When it's no more deadly than most any other quality hollowpoint. I think you'd be surprised if I got some Winchester SXT's and compared them to the Black Talons.
The Talons were a huge leap in HP tech back in 92ish. SilverTips and basic unbonded JHPs were about all we had. I was working firearms retail and those things commanded a premium back then. When the craze landed and Win ceased production, I hid 3 boxes of 10mm and bought them. It would be interesting to pull some same weight bullets and reload with Talons to observe the peformance with modern propellants. Good thing you caught both of those rounds, if one had gotten loose, it might have zinged over and killed all those jacuzzis by the interstate!!
I knew the Black Talon would penetrate further than the HST since it was heavier. I'll take over penetration though over under penetration 6 days of the week and wice on Sundays. The 124gr HST is my carry round as well though, perfect amount of penetration. Good stuff Pat👍
Pat, I still have a few rounds of the Black Talon ammo but during my testing with a S&W 6906 (3.6" bbl, I believe) I had so many failures of the 147 gr. bullets to open that I went in another direction. I settled on the Speer 115 gr. Gold Dot as the best carry round (back then) for my pistol because the lighter weight and increased velocity gave the bullet a much better chance of opening. And the bonded jacket and core of the Gold Dot meant it would always penetrate well, too. These days I've made another switch, this time to the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defender bullet, which I find fo be the most reliable feeding and accurate bullet I can can shoot out of the S&W or it's replacement, a Glock 26. The 90 gr. Bullet is skooting out of the Glock at 1396 fps and just a bit over 1400 oit of the S&W (which will go on sale as soon as I get my SA-35!). Maybe the BT-s will perform better out of the longer barreled Hi-Power? Doesn't matter, I'll still use the Underwood loading of the XD bullet. If them BT's are going for as much as you say, I prolly oughta put them up for sale too, ya think? Cheers, jc
Excellent test,have some Black Talons in 357 magnum,40s&w,9mm,carried the 357 Magnum rounds when I was in law enforcement and in one of my speed loader,also carried silver tips and department issued speer round
Back in the 1990s, when the Black Talon was still in production, and I lived in the DC Metro area (NoVa), I routinely carried a Colt Delta Elite 10mm, and always loaded it with Black Talon. The Talon was WAY ahead of it's time in terms of performance. Unfortunately, I sold that Colt Delta years ago (and I've regretted it ever since!), but I still have a TON of 10mm Black Talon. Maybe I need to look into selling it off--I could probably afford a couple hundred rounds of 5.56 with the proceeds, these days... ;-)
I had black talons for my 44 mag when I was in high school, I remember shooting it through 3 water jugs and it stopped on a cinder block in the back. Beautiful expansion and razor sharp petals
Man flowers, love that. I bought 2 boxes of Black Talons in 30-06 in the 90s. They were incredible on deer. The box had 16 rounds used and each one dropped a deer in its tracks with a sholder shot. Had to stop hunting due to health reasons but kept box for memories with 4 rounds left. I bought them on a whim because on the nichol case and black tip, looked cool. But they were exceptional on stopping power
I've got at least 100 rounds or so of that 147grn Black Talon kicking around in some ammo boxes and magazines.. I had no idea it was considered to be valuable lol!
I have seen boxes of black talons for $500.00 in the internet. I have a few boxes sill the 357 magnum are very hard to get. They are very collected now
I still carry them in all my pistols including my 45 XDS. They still made them after they got pulled off the market. They just changed the name to SXT and sold it only to LEO’s. Some still had nickel cases but most had Lubalox black bullets loaded on brass cases. I have a few thousand rounds in both brass and nickel cases…
I'll stick with Speer Gold Dots or HST. Idiot media and politicritter's banning things because of Hollywierd types. I do still have a couple boxes of black talons, mainly just to piss them off.
That 147gr Black Talon expanded well from the 4" PDP compact. The RCMP loading is available now from miwall corp and is very similar to the old black talon (147gr Ranger T-Series product code RA9SXTC) for a good price
It is almost exactly the same SXT bullet but is maybe 1 generation newer than Black Talon. It looks identical minus the black lubalox oxidizing process. The RCMP is the largest LEA in Canada and they seem to love this round from their old 4" S&W alloy frame handguns.
@@CourierSix2077They used the Smith and Wesson 5946 which was also a Double Action Only pistol in Stainless Steel. The NYPD was also issuing these pistols for officers that didn’t want the Glock. The S&W Stainless pistols are built well.
My Grandfather was in forensics and did some projectile testing of these. Contrary to popular myths they were discontinued voluntarily due to concerns/complaints of the sharpened "talons" on the jacket could cut and injure medical personnel that have to remove them and that the points made it necessary to remove much more tissue when removing one. The replacement worked just as well without the points.
My department were issued Winchester SXT 124 +P to replace the Federal Hydrashok +P+ load that was the original issued ammunition in our Glock 19. The ammunition was effective. I had to dispatch an injured deer. The sharp talon almost cut me as it was on the opposite side of the deer hide when I was dragging it out of the road. They were rebranded after the infamous Long Island Railroad massacre when the murderer was using them in his Ruger 9mm. There was media attention on the ammunition. Winchester has changed the design of that bullet to the T Series with a bonded core that isn’t sharp. Many Law Enforcement agencies liked the SXT because of how well it worked.
PDX Defender was the more recent commercial offering. Ranger SXT was another offering that was similar. From what I've heard they found a way to make the lubalox coating clear instead of black so it isn't so scary looking.
I have both of this ammo.i purchased the Black Talon many moons ago. It's still in great shape after all these years. I purchased the HST 124 Grains Plus P in 2019 based on the fact that it exceeded the FBI Ballestic tests. I'm very happy with my choice and I have both of these ammo for CCW. 🇺🇲🇺🇲😁😁👍👍
I was always curious how the Black Talon stands up to modern carry ammo. Isn't it true that modern Winchester ranger ammo is basically the same round but not black?
@@PatRMG ,,,,,Pat are you sure those are REAL BLACK TALONS,,,,cuz the ones I have from when they came out (both rifle and pistol) have steel penetrator inserts in them.
SXT's we're the same, without the black coating... SXT meaning same exact thing, I've got about 20 rounds of 9 mm, 40 rounds of 10mm and 200 rounds of 40 cal.. Black Talon. they've also got a date codes on the boxs, if you want to reference them.. but there are a lot of fakes on the internet, I usually can tell by the red around the primer is deteriorating and all the primers are silver, the same silver as the case.. some fakes I have seen are copper color, like ranger T ammo, but they dipped them in black paint, or a black permanent tip marker and oh yeah the black Talons were not bonded oh, this is the reason you see the separation
I actually never shot HST before until last year when ammo was very scarce I went to my local gun shop and they told me if I bought this $1200 pistol (That is my current favorite gun atm) that they had 2 boxes of these HST's in the back they would throw in now this was when I couldn't find ammo anywhere within a 100 miles of me so 2 boxes of ammo was a steal at this point they didn't even tell people they had them as I originally went to look for ammo and they told me they had none but when I showed interest in the $1200 pistol they told me they had 2 boxes of ammo they would throw in if I bought the pistol so I bought the gun and got a %3 discount + 2 boxes of 9mm HST first time I have ever used them as I used to use a different brand of ammo, however, after shooting them I have come to enjoy them so they are what I personally purchase for my $1200 gun that introduced me to HST.
Winchester Black Talon=Winchester Ranger T-Series=Winchester Defender Elite. The are all the same. Only difference is color. What I did find interesting is when the Army selected Sig for the sidearm, part of that contract also included ammo. The ammo they wanted was FMJ, JHP as well as I believe dummy rounds and blanks. Well, the JHP ammo they are getting that is apart of that contract is the Winchester XM1153 Special Purpose 9mm round. And what is that exactly you ask. Well, it’s none other than the infamous Winchester Black Talons. Also known as the Ranger T-Series or the current Winchester Defender Elite 147 gr JHP. Minus the black coating of course, but for the most part is the same exact round.
I used to carry this Black Talon in my off duty gun in 9mm. I had an AD when I first was getting use to a Glock and it blew the back out of a chest of drawers and into a wall. Very good rounds.
Carried black talon for years until I ran out. Used them for the claimed expansion, which was great in water soaked newspaper. NEVER heard there was a claim of going through body armor. They were intended for expansion and stopping power.
Good video. I was told that the "T" in Winchester Ranger T is for "Talon". They sure do look and perform extremely similar, with the Ranger possibly a bit better. I'd like to see a test between them.
The black talon was meant to be a hunting bullet for non hunting guns. It is a example of some ofvthe best marketing ever, thus the reason it did great for a short time. The ranget sxt ammo did use the same bullet with put the coating
I still have a couple boxes of 45acp black talon I have had left from years ago when I used as my carry round I changed ammo when the press made them sound so bad. I thought about what a court case would be if i used them in self defense
I also shoot the 124 grain HST +P out of my XDE, as well as the 147 grain HST out of my XDM. Both shoot consistently and function reliably, so no need to deviate from either one. (Yes, other offerings function from both firearms reliably, but these are my standards.)
Got some .357 talons from back in the day. Not sure how’d they stack up against today’s ammo, but they were nasty back then. Seen a box of 9 mm a few months ago in a gun store for $99.99.
I nearly fainted at a gun show a month ago. I found Ranger T's in a box of FIFTY for sixty Franklins in 357 Sig. I pounced. I now have that cartridge in 357 Sig, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP.
I just saw a guy in Georgia at a gun show with, 357, 40 cal and 9mm black talons for 75.00 a box. The prick wouldn't back down at all after I offered 60.00. So I walked. No ammo is worth even 60 bucks that was produced 30 years ago. The fool selling it was like "this ammo has never been surpassed in lethality " I laughed and said so bullet technology has remained stagnant for 30 years ??? He said yes!!! I told him whatever and laughed and walked away. He was pissed.
I have one 230 grain Black Talon 45 acp and I remember well enough that they worked pretty damn good but it was more of a hype thing but it really used to piss off the police every time I got pulled over
It's my understanding that though the black talon was discontinued, it was in name only. Apparently it was just rebranded as their ranger ammo, once they tweaked the formula so the coating no longer made the bullets black, so no one would know the difference. Which does make sense, given the amount of (unfair)heat those rounds were getting.
9$ a round?, Jesus Pee!! 😳. I bought 1,ooo of the 9mm around 10 years ago for 200$. Sportsman Guide had them on sale. Wasn't inside of the boxs just a plastic bag, lose bulk packed. 9$ a round is crazy!
I had a friend that gave me a bag of approx 50 rounds of 9mm years ago. I shot most of it at targets thinking it was just some old ammo he had. Turns out they are Black Talons! I was so pissed at myself! I have about 10 rounds left!! Damn I wish I knew they were black Talons before I shot most of it!!!
When they started showing up in emergency rooms, doctors were shocked by the sharp points and black color; they looked "evil". The media went nuts describing "buzz saw razor blade flesh ripping black bullets" and claimed they were only designed to be more lethal than standard bullets, and causing more damage. Even claimed the sharp points were a danger to doctors removing them. Winchester wanted to avoid the hysteria and possible Congressional action, so discontinued them. A short while later they brought them back as the Ranger T, without the black coating.
Couldn't get these rounds for my .44 anymore. Was told these things are like small grenades when it impacted a bulletproof vest. But yet "gold sabers" (very similar design) were allowed? Results seemed the same.
@@PatRMG I would think in all steel gun would be awful heavy in your front pocket. I've been thinking about getting the new Taurus 856 UL, they now make them with your replaceable pin front sight which is the one I'm looking for. Haven't found one yet but I'm still looking
My uncle had a couple of boxes of 9MM & .45 ACP Black Talons. From what i see here, they aren't all that bad for 1990s hollow points. Given how far Hollow Point technology has evolved from the era of Glasers and Black Talons, this slog performed pretty admirably
Have you seen a +p 45acp HST in gel? Things are YUUUGE. I can't think of more consistent and optimized projectiles on the market right now than the Fed HST and Speer Gold Dot.
I started a second channel for things that I won't put here. If interested, here's the link! th-cam.com/channels/5LfFhfsd8f36wGMjmYEK9w.html
Got 500rds of .45acp, and 40 rnds of 357. The price tag on a box of the 45s is 12.95, from Academy.
Well now .. I am sitting on 40 boxes of 45acp . my parents owned a gun shop up till the early 2000s
I give you sub
Mega Mega!
I bought a box of Black Talons when they first came out and used them as my carry ammo. A few months later they were discontinued, so I put them back in the original box. Still have them. The Winchester Ranger T is the same projectile without the black coating.
I always liked black talons. Thank goodness Winchester is still making awesome ammo choices even today. I was sad to see black talons go but most of winchesters current 9mm offerings preform pretty awesome. Nice video and fair test.
You can get Ranger T law enforcement ammo that is a more modern SXT and outperforms the Talons. Knowing someone in law enforcement is an easy way to get them.
Fresh member. My father is a Korean war Vet with dementia & I wanted you to know how much we really do appreciate watching your channel. 1 of the few things he can put together in his mind & enjoy with my son & I. Gid bless you.
I wish they would bring the black Talons back
Winchester still manufactures it. It's just not black any more.
It's called the ranger talon now plus it comes in boxes of 50 ! Still some places it's hard to find.
The Black Talon was a cup and core bullet design which explains why the bullet tried to separate when shooting the Kevlar ballistic panel.
Thanks for sharing Pat, glad you were able to salvage the prior video.
Always heard good things about the black talon, but I think the ranger T was king back in the day. HST seems to be top dog currently so thanks for comparing one of the old best and the new best
Thanks for watching, TN Ray!
Pretty sure that the Ranger T was a redesigned Black Talon without the scary black coating and different cut to the jacket to do a way with the sharper pointy bits when expanded.
@@Centurion-st5pe yup, you are correct. Ranger T is nasty! And it’s black talon just not black anymore. My brother is on CSPD and that’s what they use. I kinda wonder how nuts CSPD’s weapons choosers are or whoever is in charge is. They use ranger +p+ in smith and Wesson M&P 2.0’s. I’m positive S&W recommends against this as they are not 9mm major barrels. Lol but then they also opted to use cheytac 408 as their anti material sniper round for SWAT to prevent bad publicity if the papers ever reported on a crazy SWAT engagement. They figure most people won’t know how crazy or expensive that round is but if they heard 50 caliber your average liberal would freak out thinking a swat team was using 50 cal on citizens. They also say no one can use EOtech as a permanent department policy ever since EOtech had their controversy and finally their SWAT also uses H&K MP7’s. That gun is a unicorn that basically no citizen could find so they kinda know what they are doing with guns and ammo selection. Supposedly they are one of the best SWAT’s in the country and if that same department is using Ranger +p+ then maybe it still is king? Sorry for the ramble just found all of that fascinating when I talked with my bro about all of their munitions and firearms selections and reasoning behind some of it.
@@T20-c8f Thanks for sharing the story, looks like some one in the CSPD is a super gun nerd too.
@@Centurion-st5pe I envy that dudes job!
I have a buddy that bought $20,000 in ammo from a family friend last year. The actual owner passed away and his wife contacted my buddy and his dad. Long story short there were 400 .357 magnum black talon rounds in that lot. Dork sold them for less than a dollar a round. 😶 I tried to tell him, but sometimes people won't listen.
That's foolish! Maybe he did it as a favor to the bereaved family, but make some money if you can!
@@PatRMG He was so interested in offloading as much of that stuff as he could he wouldn't listen to reason. He actually said he was surprised at how quickly they sold. He had them online for less than an hour. 🤬
most normal people dont care about ammunition. its mostly youtubers that do. i laugh at the mania i see here everyday.
@@harleybutler389 absolutely. Defensive rounds are just that, defensive rounds. They sit most times. I would barely use them
@@Tex_I_Canyeah he’s a bozo “durrrrr they sold out very kwick 🥴🥴😵💫”
Black Talons are very effective especially when they first came out. In the early 90's. Very effective got to see them perform out of a Glock 17 into ballistic tank at HPD. Came out as advertised. Lots of officers carried them. At the time you had very little selection of HP - Silver tips, Black Talons, Hi Shoks, Hyrda Shoks, Golden Sabres, and Gold Dots. Now you have these plus a few other offerings. SD has evolved for sure. It was also known that once hit with these it was difficult to remove from the human body without removing more flesh, and tissue to successfully remove them due to the claw effect. Thanks for testing and oresting your findings. These are still effective and deadly. ♠️🎩☯️🏁
Love the HST! My carry choice in 9mm and .45 acp. I also have a complete and full box of Black Talons in 9mm. Owned them since the early 90's.
That’s basically stocks at this point 😂
Thanks Pat! Great food for thought. 🤜🤛
Thanks for watching!
Black Talon in 180 gr .357 is still my carry load in a Ruger SP-101. A little spicy but manageable. Same load for 30 years. I'm down to my last box so eventually I'll update. But it won't be an upgrade.
I had a bunch in .45 ACP and 9mm back in the day but shot them all up long ago. SXT was nearly identical, minus the Lubalox coating, nickel plated brass and sealed primer pockets. That attention to detail ensured the Black Talons would remain reliable for years in duty carry, in an era when leather was still the main material for holsters and accessory pouches.
If you have law enforcement contacts get ahold of Ranger T ammo from Winchester. It performs better
I did a lot of water jug "tests" back in 1992-1993 with these before they were taken off the market....running a lot of them through a Beretta 92FS I bought new in '92, when I was watching Lethal Weapon a lot :)
Question is: Do you still have the 92 or has it traded and evolved into some sort of wheelgun over the years?
@@PatRMG That Beretta? Naw....that one got traded in on a new Glock Model 22 in late 1993. That was another life..another wife, and before I was the dad of any of our grown 5 boys...much less a grandfather of 6. That was before the war and before the peace.
There was zero chance of hanging onto a gun all those years with me...though I REALLY wish I still had that Marlin 1894 .44 Magnum I had in 1992,
I did buy a new Beretta 92A1 earlier in 2021, but quickly decided the A1 rail was more of a hindrance when it came to holster availability, and IT became one of my current Cimarron SAA clones.
I'd like to have another 92FS/M9 without the rail...though I have 2 9mm's more than I care about 9mm's to own.
Those being a Taurus G3 and a new, unfired Coyote Tan GX4. I picked up the GX4 the same day I also bought a new, as of yet unfired, SDS/Tisas GI spec 1911 in .45 acp.
The GI spec 1911 in .45 acp is about the only autoloading pistol I really like....mayble "love" a little.
If you "love" it a little, you'll cuddle it. At least, that's what I do. 😁
@@PatRMG Well... I must just * like* it a lot, then...heheheh.
I seem to *love* the 4.2" Redhawk .44 Mag I just got.😁
Excellent video, I would stick with the HST. The 297 ftlbs of energy in the talon is just a little low for me.
Yeah. It being older ammo doesn't settle well with me either.
The infamous reverse tapering projectile upon penetration of flesh. The reverse tapering characteristic was its shock value for the public and media.
That shock value still exists today. It's just evolving.
@@PatRMG back when they first came out, those suckers flew off the shelves lickety split! The media hype was so high and how devastating the black talons were and are. But hell, for self protection, I’m not here to merely piss off a criminal who’s about to come after me.
The reverse taper simply means the jacket in the nose of the bullet is thicker than in the sides, to prevent overexpansion. The public/media was more obsessed with the "razor sharp" claws.
Thanks for your video Pat. I bought eight boxes of Black Talon years ago - before they got their bad rap. I carry them in several small 9mm pistols including my Walther PPS and SIG 365.
I have the Walther 4.5" PDP and it's been my favorite polymer pistol EVER! She's now seen over 4k rounds of practically every popular round out there with some abstract on the side, "0 steel case because I love my babies and feed and clean them with love". The barrel is still WAY more accurate than I'll ever be, the trigger spring is still good and healthy and the feed ramp & barrel chamber are still as nice and shiny as the day I brought her home. What I'm most surprised with is that the polymer guide rod and super thin spring is still better than ever. When I first got the gun I thought that after so many rounds the guide rod would be the first part replaced. Amazing gun.
I have several boxes of Black Talons in a few calibers. I bought them from a vendor at a gun show in Florida back in the early 2000's. It's crazy how this ammo gained such an ominous name for itself. When it's no more deadly than most any other quality hollowpoint. I think you'd be surprised if I got some Winchester SXT's and compared them to the Black Talons.
I've done tests with both all the newer Ranger T outperformed the Talons.
The Talons were a huge leap in HP tech back in 92ish. SilverTips and basic unbonded JHPs were about all we had. I was working firearms retail and those things commanded a premium back then. When the craze landed and Win ceased production, I hid 3 boxes of 10mm and bought them. It would be interesting to pull some same weight bullets and reload with Talons to observe the peformance with modern propellants.
Good thing you caught both of those rounds, if one had gotten loose, it might have zinged over and killed all those jacuzzis by the interstate!!
Nice testing as we all remember those black talons back in the day....Good stuff....
Thanks for watching, Scott!
I knew the Black Talon would penetrate further than the HST since it was heavier. I'll take over penetration though over under penetration 6 days of the week and wice on Sundays. The 124gr HST is my carry round as well though, perfect amount of penetration. Good stuff Pat👍
Yup. HST is my PDP mags right now.
Remember that clear synthetic gel allows a little more penetration than brown organic gel.
Ranger T same $#!T different day they work great !!
Yup. Just a different color.
I was shocked to see the HST with higher velocity and energy numbers, not penetrate the gel as far, as the lower number Black Talon. Great video.
I had a somewhat similar outcome with a long and short barreled revolver test. The slower one penetrated farther.
@@PatRMG that is common in many H Ps
Less penetration because its lighter, & can't carry its momentum as far or as well.
@@jerrywelch1370 more energy is used to deform the metal more as well
Because they expand slower
Pat. Really good and interesting video. Plus, keep the snow down there we don't need it here in NE OH, but I expect it to come soon! Take care.
Awesome video brother and will check out Eurooptic for sure
Thanks TGG!
Good stuff thanks for the comparison!!
Pat, I still have a few rounds of the Black Talon ammo but during my testing with a S&W 6906 (3.6" bbl, I believe) I had so many failures of the 147 gr. bullets to open that I went in another direction. I settled on the Speer 115 gr. Gold Dot as the best carry round (back then) for my pistol because the lighter weight and increased velocity gave the bullet a much better chance of opening. And the bonded jacket and core of the Gold Dot meant it would always penetrate well, too. These days I've made another switch, this time to the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defender bullet, which I find fo be the most reliable feeding and accurate bullet I can can shoot out of the S&W or it's replacement, a Glock 26. The 90 gr. Bullet is skooting out of the Glock at 1396 fps and just a bit over 1400 oit of the S&W (which will go on sale as soon as I get my SA-35!). Maybe the BT-s will perform better out of the longer barreled Hi-Power? Doesn't matter, I'll still use the Underwood loading of the XD bullet. If them BT's are going for as much as you say, I prolly oughta put them up for sale too, ya think?
Cheers,
jc
It looks like the Ranger and PDX are the same but without the black coating
I remember those infamous Black Talon and the Niclad. The forbidden fruits of the 80s.
Excellent test,have some Black Talons in 357 magnum,40s&w,9mm,carried the 357 Magnum rounds when I was in law enforcement and in one of my speed loader,also carried silver tips and department issued speer round
Nice comparison some really good expansion on both HST is my go to as well
Just picked up my first revolver (627 Pro series) and ordered some ranger SXT/talon ammo. Loving your revolver and talon content!
Nice testing. Glad you were able to savage this footage. 👍🏻👍🏻
Never realized black talons were such a legend. I have some .40 cal black talons lying around somewhere. Nice video!
Back in the 1990s, when the Black Talon was still in production, and I lived in the DC Metro area (NoVa), I routinely carried a Colt Delta Elite 10mm, and always loaded it with Black Talon. The Talon was WAY ahead of it's time in terms of performance.
Unfortunately, I sold that Colt Delta years ago (and I've regretted it ever since!), but I still have a TON of 10mm Black Talon. Maybe I need to look into selling it off--I could probably afford a couple hundred rounds of 5.56 with the proceeds, these days... ;-)
I just acquired a colt delta elite. TRADE HMMM AMMO
Great video. Thank you for taking the time and resources to make it.
I had black talons for my 44 mag when I was in high school, I remember shooting it through 3 water jugs and it stopped on a cinder block in the back. Beautiful expansion and razor sharp petals
Man flowers, love that. I bought 2 boxes of Black Talons in 30-06 in the 90s. They were incredible on deer. The box had 16 rounds used and each one dropped a deer in its tracks with a sholder shot. Had to stop hunting due to health reasons but kept box for memories with 4 rounds left. I bought them on a whim because on the nichol case and black tip, looked cool. But they were exceptional on stopping power
Love the hst rounds
Much agreed.
Those talons were slow! Well under the norm for 9mm, especially from a 4". Were they 147gr?
ah, you said later in the video.
Yeah. The video was a little boogered from camera issues.
@@PatRMG I understand, I've been there too
Lol. You just had to flip us the bird to point them out on the Kevlar.
For 2 legged threats I'd go with the federal for the punch.
Subliminal messages. 😁 I actually don't know why I didn't use my pointer finger.
That was an excellent demo 👌
Thanks for watching!
👍👍 nice comparison, either will get the job done for sure
Thanks for watching Vinny!
i had some 44 magnum black talons, put wild hogs down with authority from my super redhawk....
I'm sure they did!
I've got at least 100 rounds or so of that 147grn Black Talon kicking around in some ammo boxes and magazines.. I had no idea it was considered to be valuable lol!
I'm sure it brings that price to those willing to pay. I personally wouldn't. It was fun to make the video though.
Very nice pat . So at end of this stick to the federal hst and save money. What I always said black talons are just Teflon coat hp .
The HST is definitely my choice.
I agree deflon coated ..
I have seen boxes of black talons for $500.00 in the internet. I have a few boxes sill the 357 magnum are very hard to get. They are very collected now
Just the empty 9mm box was going for 30 last time I saw. Pretty outrageous.
@@PatRMG
Yeah they're highly collectible now. I even have someone 45 ACP.
Would love to see the same test with a hornady xtp
Nice review! I still have a full box of 9mm Black Talons from the 90’s.
Very good video format, especially posting specs and not just reading👍 👏
I like letting the viewer pause and read if they want. Been doing it on optic specs too.
I still carry them in all my pistols including my 45 XDS. They still made them after they got pulled off the market. They just changed the name to SXT and sold it only to LEO’s. Some still had nickel cases but most had Lubalox black bullets loaded on brass cases. I have a few thousand rounds in both brass and nickel cases…
I’d have loved to see the 147 HST against the 147 black talon
I looked for the 147. This was filmed when I just had to use what I had. Ammogeddon wasn't over yet.
@@PatRMG it still ain’t over here in Oklahoma I’m have mortal hell trying to find ANY 38/357 at all
I'll stick with Speer Gold Dots or HST. Idiot media and politicritter's banning things because of Hollywierd types. I do still have a couple boxes of black talons, mainly just to piss them off.
I thought about buying the empty box just to have a place for these loose ones to reside.
That 147gr Black Talon expanded well from the 4" PDP compact. The RCMP loading is available now from miwall corp and is very similar to the old black talon (147gr Ranger T-Series product code RA9SXTC) for a good price
It is almost exactly the same SXT bullet but is maybe 1 generation newer than Black Talon. It looks identical minus the black lubalox oxidizing process. The RCMP is the largest LEA in Canada and they seem to love this round from their old 4" S&W alloy frame handguns.
@@CourierSix2077They used the Smith and Wesson 5946 which was also a Double Action Only pistol in Stainless Steel. The NYPD was also issuing these pistols for officers that didn’t want the Glock. The S&W Stainless pistols are built well.
My Grandfather was in forensics and did some projectile testing of these.
Contrary to popular myths they were discontinued voluntarily due to concerns/complaints of the sharpened "talons" on the jacket could cut and injure medical personnel that have to remove them and that the points made it necessary to remove much more tissue when removing one.
The replacement worked just as well without the points.
My department were issued Winchester SXT 124 +P to replace the Federal Hydrashok +P+ load that was the original issued ammunition in our Glock 19. The ammunition was effective. I had to dispatch an injured deer. The sharp talon almost cut me as it was on the opposite side of the deer hide when I was dragging it out of the road. They were rebranded after the infamous Long Island Railroad massacre when the murderer was using them in his Ruger 9mm. There was media attention on the ammunition. Winchester has changed the design of that bullet to the T Series with a bonded core that isn’t sharp. Many Law Enforcement agencies liked the SXT because of how well it worked.
PDX Defender was the more recent commercial offering. Ranger SXT was another offering that was similar. From what I've heard they found a way to make the lubalox coating clear instead of black so it isn't so scary looking.
I have both of this ammo.i purchased the Black Talon many moons ago. It's still in great shape after all these years. I purchased the HST 124 Grains Plus P in 2019 based on the fact that it exceeded the FBI Ballestic tests. I'm very happy with my choice and I have both of these ammo for CCW. 🇺🇲🇺🇲😁😁👍👍
I was always curious how the Black Talon stands up to modern carry ammo. Isn't it true that modern Winchester ranger ammo is basically the same round but not black?
Yeah. It's supposed to be the same thing. Just doesn't carry the reputation.
@@PatRMG ,,,,,Pat are you sure those are REAL BLACK TALONS,,,,cuz the ones I have from when they came out (both rifle and pistol) have steel penetrator inserts in them.
Same projectile, no coating
Just checked them with a magnet. They're not ferrous.
SXT's we're the same, without the black coating... SXT meaning same exact thing, I've got about 20 rounds of 9 mm, 40 rounds of 10mm and 200 rounds of 40 cal.. Black Talon. they've also got a date codes on the boxs, if you want to reference them.. but there are a lot of fakes on the internet, I usually can tell by the red around the primer is deteriorating and all the primers are silver, the same silver as the case.. some fakes I have seen are copper color, like ranger T ammo, but they dipped them in black paint, or a black permanent tip marker and oh yeah the black Talons were not bonded oh, this is the reason you see the separation
I actually never shot HST before until last year when ammo was very scarce I went to my local gun shop and they told me if I bought this $1200 pistol (That is my current favorite gun atm) that they had 2 boxes of these HST's in the back they would throw in now this was when I couldn't find ammo anywhere within a 100 miles of me so 2 boxes of ammo was a steal at this point they didn't even tell people they had them as I originally went to look for ammo and they told me they had none but when I showed interest in the $1200 pistol they told me they had 2 boxes of ammo they would throw in if I bought the pistol so I bought the gun and got a %3 discount + 2 boxes of 9mm HST first time I have ever used them as I used to use a different brand of ammo, however, after shooting them I have come to enjoy them so they are what I personally purchase for my $1200 gun that introduced me to HST.
Winchester Black Talon=Winchester Ranger T-Series=Winchester Defender Elite. The are all the same. Only difference is color.
What I did find interesting is when the Army selected Sig for the sidearm, part of that contract also included ammo. The ammo they wanted was FMJ, JHP as well as I believe dummy rounds and blanks. Well, the JHP ammo they are getting that is apart of that contract is the Winchester XM1153 Special Purpose 9mm round. And what is that exactly you ask. Well, it’s none other than the infamous Winchester Black Talons. Also known as the Ranger T-Series or the current Winchester Defender Elite 147 gr JHP. Minus the black coating of course, but for the most part is the same exact round.
Thanks for the comparison 👍
I used to carry this Black Talon in my off duty gun in 9mm. I had an AD when I first was getting use to a Glock and it blew the back out of a chest of drawers and into a wall. Very good rounds.
Carried black talon for years until I ran out. Used them for the claimed expansion, which was great in water soaked newspaper. NEVER heard there was a claim of going through body armor. They were intended for expansion and stopping power.
Good video. I was told that the "T" in Winchester Ranger T is for "Talon". They sure do look and perform extremely similar, with the Ranger possibly a bit better. I'd like to see a test between them.
Thanks for the info!
The black talon was meant to be a hunting bullet for non hunting guns. It is a example of some ofvthe best marketing ever, thus the reason it did great for a short time. The ranget sxt ammo did use the same bullet with put the coating
Hell yeah my brother I still have a few boxes in my Ammo can just chilling. BUT I do carry the New version the RANGER T
I still have a couple boxes of 45acp black talon I have had left from years ago when I used as my carry round I changed ammo when the press made them sound so bad. I thought about what a court case would be if i used them in self defense
I wish I had known to lay a few boxes back....
Still have quite a bit of BT in 9mm and .45acp from back in the old PD Days
I also shoot the 124 grain HST +P out of my XDE, as well as the 147 grain HST out of my XDM. Both shoot consistently and function reliably, so no need to deviate from either one. (Yes, other offerings function from both firearms reliably, but these are my standards.)
I still have one full box of 9 mm black talon and 44 magnum black talon
Very neat! I'd have a hard time not shooting the 44!
@@PatRMG I bought them a couple of days before they took them off the shelvesI got it at sports Authority $12.96 for 44 magnum
I hunted with black talon many years ago 30,06 punched through no expansion,hated them , pistol rounds look awesome
Got some .357 talons from back in the day. Not sure how’d they stack up against today’s ammo, but they were nasty back then. Seen a box of 9 mm a few months ago in a gun store for $99.99.
I've seen just the empty box go for 30.
I nearly fainted at a gun show a month ago. I found Ranger T's in a box of FIFTY for sixty Franklins in 357 Sig. I pounced. I now have that cartridge in 357 Sig, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP.
I just saw a guy in Georgia at a gun show with, 357, 40 cal and 9mm black talons for 75.00 a box. The prick wouldn't back down at all after I offered 60.00. So I walked. No ammo is worth even 60 bucks that was produced 30 years ago. The fool selling it was like "this ammo has never been surpassed in lethality " I laughed and said so bullet technology has remained stagnant for 30 years ??? He said yes!!! I told him whatever and laughed and walked away. He was pissed.
I would choose Black Talons to this day if they were still available.
Nice comparison 👍🏻🇺🇸
Thanks Jesse!
I still have some 45 acp Black Talon. Isn't the Ranger T the same bullet as the Black Talon?
*good video, I still carry Black Talons in my EDC's*
They still make it under the name Ranger T series, the only difference is they don't have the Teflon coating.
I actually like that the HST didnt penetrate as much.
So you're telling me, the media lied? Lol
Never never. 🤣🤣🤣
I have one 230 grain Black Talon 45 acp and I remember well enough that they worked pretty damn good but it was more of a hype thing but it really used to piss off the police every time I got pulled over
Great test and video sir!
Very cool to see!
Thanks a ton, Ben!
Black Talons are still my EDC in 40 cal. I have tons of them... somewhere.
The blacktalon clearly the winner
First I've heard of this round
Been discontinued for lots of years.
I bought 4 boxes of them a few years back for 10 bucks a box at the trade lot ... 😂
It's my understanding that though the black talon was discontinued, it was in name only. Apparently it was just rebranded as their ranger ammo, once they tweaked the formula so the coating no longer made the bullets black, so no one would know the difference. Which does make sense, given the amount of (unfair)heat those rounds were getting.
The original Black Tallon was Teflon coated.
I got several boxes of the stuff. It's what I carry in my S&W Mod 6906
9$ a round?, Jesus Pee!! 😳. I bought 1,ooo of the 9mm around 10 years ago for 200$. Sportsman Guide had them on sale. Wasn't inside of the boxs just a plastic bag, lose bulk packed. 9$ a round is crazy!
I had a friend that gave me a bag of approx 50 rounds of 9mm years ago. I shot most of it at targets thinking it was just some old ammo he had. Turns out they are Black Talons! I was so pissed at myself! I have about 10 rounds left!! Damn I wish I knew they were black Talons before I shot most of it!!!
I still have some Ranger 127 +P+ loads for my P89.
Woooooo🇺🇸🤘🏻🇺🇸
Wooooo back!
Sweet video! Thank you for sharing with the community. Do we know why they were discontinued?
Discontinued because of a ton of misinformation.
@@PatRMG that's too bad.
When they started showing up in emergency rooms, doctors were shocked by the sharp points and black color; they looked "evil". The media went nuts describing "buzz saw razor blade flesh ripping black bullets" and claimed they were only designed to be more lethal than standard bullets, and causing more damage. Even claimed the sharp points were a danger to doctors removing them. Winchester wanted to avoid the hysteria and possible Congressional action, so discontinued them. A short while later they brought them back as the Ranger T, without the black coating.
Couldn't get these rounds for my .44 anymore. Was told these things are like small grenades when it impacted a bulletproof vest. But yet "gold sabers" (very similar design) were allowed? Results seemed the same.
Still carrying the Tauros 605 in your front pocket?
The 605 stays in the rotation. I've swapped to a Model 60 S&W that belonged to a family member for the last week or so. I'll swap back soon.
@@PatRMG I would think in all steel gun would be awful heavy in your front pocket. I've been thinking about getting the new Taurus 856 UL, they now make them with your replaceable pin front sight which is the one I'm looking for. Haven't found one yet but I'm still looking
My uncle had a couple of boxes of 9MM & .45 ACP Black Talons. From what i see here, they aren't all that bad for 1990s hollow points. Given how far Hollow Point technology has evolved from the era of Glasers and Black Talons, this slog performed pretty admirably
Have you seen a +p 45acp HST in gel? Things are YUUUGE.
I can't think of more consistent and optimized projectiles on the market right now than the Fed HST and Speer Gold Dot.
Nice.. good job.thanks. come on man tell us what you paid for the Tallons. I still have a few of my own some where down stairs
i'll stick with the T series.cheaper and pretty much the same bullet...thanks for the info on the HSTs i did carry them till i found the T series
Thanks for watching!