@@BuffRANGE Thats a great question. Part of me has to assume that they do. I've found DOJ contracts for ammo and different agencies, but I cant remember if I've ever found SS contracts.
@@BuffRANGE If they have Stiletto 9x19 AP, they'll blitz anything short of ceramic plates. Basically all steel on the market will fold like a cheap suit, and UHMWPE is a lost cause. >MP5 can now perforate those "just as good" Armoured Repub plates
Exactly. I held onto this round for probably a year trying to think what to shoot it at. I knew M39B and bullets like that could penetrate IIIA, and that seemed a waste for DM91. I wasn't sure how it would do against steel, or any ceramic with a strike face over .200". I'd love to test it more, maybe some day.
@@BuffRANGE very interested to see this round on steel and ceramic! That thing is insane! Would also be cool to see how it preforms out of different barrel lengths. Wonder if it could still penetrate a poly 3+ out of a glock 43 or something similar. If it failed to penetrate steel/ceramic out of the 7.7" scorpion, maybe try carbine barrel or something similar ect. Great vid man!
@@BuffRANGE drive.google.com/file/d/1Wy94Awe83U2Mmeav1oS_wOYurdso_xtZ/view?usp=drivesdk Documentation suggests inconsistent, but very possible, performance. Due to armour Repub having shit quality, hardness of plates may factor into penetration.
@@LîNkxUSMC Generally speaking, poly folds like paper against anything hard cored. As for ceramic, it's not cutting that. Even basic classification three, I'd bet my life that I'd survive.
I'm truly amazed that ANY 9mm load would be capable of penetrating rifle armour. Very informative video, i never knew much about how different armour medians can perform better or worse at stopping certain rounds. Adds a lot more nuance to armour design and armour ratings. It would also explain how many armours are capable of stopping rounds they aren't rated for just as the inverse happened here.
@@cullenseago1519 I also could have sworn they used tungsten cores in some ww1 era k bullets. Might have been post WW1 but they definitely made k bullets with tungsten cores.
Military Sci-Fi.........real military armor piercing ammunition has used tungsten penetrators as far back as WW2. Its nothing new, neither are the basic principles of armor penetration.
There are "White Out" pens which are literally "liquid paper" or "white out" in a pen, meant to correct very small errors. I find that they write very, very well on dark surfaces.
This DM91 round may be my favorite round youve tested. It's amazing seeing the plate didn't slow it down. It showed no signs of anything grabbing it. People who engineer these types of munitions are amazing. Getting the weight, material, shape, charge and assembly process perfected to manufacture little amazing aeronautical bullets. Humans are the best
First video of yours ive seen. Kinda unbelievable 9mm could make it through something a 308 cant. I love the setup you got with the chrony monitor. Subbed
@@justinlance4174 depends on the armor. With steel armor it's been noticed that speed is the more important factor. With uhmwpe, bullet construction seems to matter more than speed. Ceramics seem to be the hardest to penetrate and require both.
@@KoishiVibin and killa armor happens to be polyethylene adding the fact that a zabralo is equal to a level 3 plate and killa is weaker than a zabralo it would cut right through it. and a ceramic plate shatters after a few hits so it could take this down aswell easily so whats your point
@@oldls7t_211 1: tarkov defined an IOTV as being made of titanium 2: tarkov defined GOST 6A as being analogous to NIJ IIIA. Given that the Killa armour is a modded 6b13, and the 6b13 is ceramic, I'll go with a ceramic plate. Also, it'll take upwards of fifty pistol rounds to beat ceramic armor plates
A friend ordered tungsten points from a source in China. He managed to mount projectiles on a lathe and bored out the center and epoxied a tungsten core into it. Yes it did,manage to get throughout level III armour. Yes where there is a will there is a way. Don't have any reload info on the rounds as to powder type used or grains of projectile. It would appear that a solid projectile would be the perfect host. Build at your own risk. Nothing is impossible.
Not just the poly plate but also passed through that soft armor and made a massive cavity into more than an inch of clay and wanted to keep going, thats down right scary!
IchBinEinNoob 7N31 penetrates 4.6mm thick AR500 steel at up to 10 m away when fired from PP-2000, not sure how this translates into performance against UHMWPE. Its probably about the same in terms of near point blank performance, but 7N31 losses its penetration performance really fast with increasing distances.
Interesting! I'm mildly surprised but not really shocked. Tungsten is no joke, pretty hard stuff. Driven with some oomph I imagine it will go through a lot of stuff you wouldn't expect a 9mm to perforate.
@stemup Making AP pistol ammo is illegal here in the states. The only way for it to get into civilian hands here is for it to have either been imported or made before the law was passed, or for it to have been made or imported by/for the military.
This should teach yall its not about the speed its about the material the bullet is made of. Of course distance is a factor as well but you get the point
Gotta get that 80gr SCS in a handload. Fort Scott's somewhat anemic (standard velocity) loading data gives a Power Pistol load that just about matches the velocity you get from the Evo...in a Glock 19. Silhouette powder will likely give you 1600fps or more from the G19 if you're willing to load to +P pressures.
I love that you do all of this obscure stuff!! Here's a challenge: Obtain and test the Gecko 9mm AP if you can find it. I hear they are rare as hens teeth. Fun fact: Gecko 9mm ap was used in the biggy smalls shooting.
It's quite amazing that Green Tip ammunition and other metal cored ammunition can defeat UHMWPE armor and yet some of that same type of armor can still stop standard 50 caliber ball ammo (not sure what the survivability percentages of receiving a hit by 50 cal whilst wearing body armor are, but I'm certain they are better than without). In any case, this is why I think the best armor plates are hybrid plates with both UHMWPE and either steel, ceramic, kevlar or other secondary bullet resistant materials. Lastly, my guess is that the tungsten core 9mm is definitely going to penetrate that armor, especially with that particular ammo coming in such a hot load.
interesting on the DM91, though it looks like an alternative to the 5.7x28mm which is intended to penetrate kevlar and tumble in soft tissue. UHMWPE performs as expected against standard rounds, even the kevlar as intended. as for steel plates i doubt it though i'm sure i'd leave a hell of a mark and would likely leave the tungsten fused to it, if you've ever watch Taofledermaus he's had some really wonky slugs on there but one of the very very few that were capable of penetrating IIIa steel plate was a light weight poly carbonate slug with a 1/4" hardened drill bit inserted into the tip. not sure out of a normal pistol that the DM91 would be capable of as much as you're losing the muzzle velocity, speed beats armor in most cases as more energy = more pokey power.
I'd rather wear steel III+, it stops 55gr, 62gr and nearly everything else on earth short of .300 win mag and takes repeated hits. Level 4 is typically ceramic and degrades. You won't find this loading in the market, let alone at Walmart or on the streets.
You can repeat this with a tungsten rod the rite diameter and a Hollow point or even drill a hole in a bullet and epoxy it in . I know it will not be as good but I am sure it would shoot good enough .I would personally use a copper bullet hollow point and buy the corresponding gage to fit so I could get a true to center as I could .
I'd love to find the specs on that tungsten penetrator (mass and diameter) to see what sectional energy it's hitting with. I'm still surprised it went through a supposed class III+ plate, but a hole is a hole.
Good ad for Shotstop. Never heard of them but I will have to check it out with these results. I don't own any poly armor...but it might be on my xmas wish list. :-)
Fun Fact... The curves of the THV ammunition are the same sort of idea as the Xtreme Penetrator/Defender ammunition. But it definitely aids in armor penetration, and you dont want to market that to cops. So the Screwdriver bullets (besides feeding better) have the extra cross section so it cant penetrate. But still gets the extra fluid damage.
Extra fluid damage? That's largely been unproven to my knowledge, and most of their bullets aren't even approaching rifle like velocities where that happens. My judgement on those bullets is still out, but perhaps there will be an LE evaluation of them at some point.
I’d really like to know how that tungsten round would perform out of my 10 -1/2” stainless bull barrel when loaded with a +p+ load. I really only mess with +p+ loads with my stainless bull barrel. I have the heavy buffer spring and 7oz buffer from kvp and weighted cmmg carrier tuned to run suppressed but i dont shoot suppressed BUT it acts like a delayed blowback with seriously hot loads in a ar set up. If you want to rock a serious 9mm ar pistol set up I would highly recommend my set up.
must be easy to make your own tungsten cored bullets, just get some cheap tungsten PCB drill bits, grind/snap off the end and use the shank in a drilled 9mm bullet. worth a try?
This 9mm tungsten round is similar in principle to APDS. Besides, UHMWPE is very specific in which type of round penetrate sometime. Russian conduct experiment with these type of armor. They find out that 7.62x39(forget the type of round)at a certain velocity, will go through the plate meanwhile at higher velocity, the plate will stop it.
Ehhh Sub IIIs, basically super IIIAs like the L210 will kitbosh basically any handgun ammo in existence, bar something spicy like the RSh-12 A proper threat 3+ will bounce this shit easy.
My first thought when he said how hard it is to get was "I got TIG(tungsten inert gas) electrodes in my garage that look about that size. That would be a hell of an experiment for his channel. How cool would it be to be able to make your own rounds that could Pierce 3A+ for under 50 bucks?
@@davidhenderson3400 ok just did a bunch of research and it seems that you're absolutely right about buying/selling ammo that is made out of tungsten or has a tungsten core. Whether or not you can have that ammo seems to be the gray area in the law. If he can legally possess the round that he shot, I can't see how it would be illegal to make more for personal/lawful use, right?
Whaaaaaaaaat. I did not expect to see that. 9mm pill going 1600fps going through a 3+! I had been operating on the understanding that when it comes to personal body armor and small arms, velocity was 90%+ of the equation and materials and construction could rarely make a difference. Like with a 3+ plate, under 2800 or so fps I would have guessed it didn't matter if it was 50 grains or 124; .22 caliber or 9mm; lead, copper, steel, or tungsten. Within the range of common calibers and weights, say up to .45 cal and under 300 grains, you could only lower penetration velocity by a couple hundred FPS for a given plate by optimizing design and nothing too far beneath that 2800-ish would go in. Guess I was quite wrong.
It's a almost a per material type consideration. When looking at UHMWPE used in this plate, bullet construction plays key. I have sent M80A1 at subonic velocities right through a plate like this, and M855A1 poked a bit out the back. Yet it can take M193 at over 3400 fps. Steel on the other hand, has troubles over 3100 fps for lead core types. It can handle M855 very well, and M855A1 as long as under 3000 fps. Ceramic needs speed and construction to defeat it.
@@BuffRANGE Fascinating. That’s the first I’ve learned of ceramic plates being significantly different from steel as far as what can penetrate a fresh plate. Good to know m855(non a1) has some practical applications now - back when I was new to guns there was talk of m855 being banned so I bought a bunch at inflated prices. Then I learned it was inferior to good old m193 in terminal performance AND penetration in all but a few specific scenarios and it wasn’t banned after all; so it is common and sucky. Well apparently not so sucky any longer with ceramic in play. =)
2 boxes of fort Scott munitions that I bought had rounds that weren't within intolerances and fort Scott claims a nasty wound cavity because they say that their rounds are designed to tumble once they hit a Target
Not good those rounds are overhyped as fuck it's just a chunk of soft copper milled out to look more dangerous in reality its a tiny bit better than ss190 if it's better at all.
true. The second you increase the hit angle you increase the performance of the armor to a degree. MIL-46100E 1/4" won't stop M2AP 30-06 head on, but it can at a 45° angle.
I was in a training class awhile back and our instructor had us practicing taking 2 shots to the chest and 2 to the pelvic. I think they need to make some armour for your privates.
Can you buy the projectiles for personal handloads? I know you mentioned that the complete round is very hard to come by, but I am curious as to if the projectiles themselves are available. That EXTREMLEY impressive. that'd be impressive for most intermediate rifle rounds, let alone 9mm.
@@BuffRANGE some high quality level III or III+ plates will stop 5.56 going a little over 3,000 FPS I'm curious how a penetrator moving at only 9mm velocity's would do but these are so rare that I'll probably never find out.
We were shooting 500 mag under a covered firing line today and was like NOPE I am wearing these MOFO the entire time until I step back from that line :D
Fromvwhat i can find the "+" isn't an official NIJ rating. Companies put it on the tag if it can take more than one hit or if it effectively resists one or more rounds beyond what the rating indicates. I may not be digging deep enough, though.
You are correct. The “+” is a marketing term usually to denote typically m193 coverage, or m855. Or anything else the company wants to include a rating for. With the new RF1/2 standards will help cover what most give to a “+” rating.
@@BuffRANGE Thank you for giving me more info to look up. I tend to go by the Aikido defense of "the best defense for a puch is to not be there." But sometimes trouble comes looking for me.
It would seem that's the case. Now a bullet like this does excel at aramid fiber penetration, but compared to some newer tech ammo, it falls behind. an 80gr solid copper bullet out penetrates this design..
I have an amor test no one has done yet. At least I can't find it. I would like to see what lvl 3+ with soft 3a behind it as a trauma pad would stop. I use this set up on my front protection. Would this give lvl 4 quality protection?
It would not make it level IV. If a bullet penetrates the front of the of a III+ that soft armor has little chance of stopping it depending on the bullet.
In the beginning you said it’s a 3+ plate at the end you said if you step up to a 3+ plate results may vary. Was this in fact a 3+ plate? Either way still impressive
Buffman - R.A.N.G.E. Cool, still like I said either way impressive. So 3+ steel plates protect against m855 where uhmwpe protect against m193 ? Awesome stuff.
@@itsamk18-ish Yep. Armor advantages are very much based on materials. UHMWPE seen here can stop very fast moving bullets, but have issues with hardened materials like the penetrator in M855. Steel can stop M855 and even M855A1 (as long as it's under 3000 fps), but any M193 going over 3100 fps it will have trouble with. Ceramic backed with UHMWPE stops many varied types of bullets depending on how thick the ceramic is.
Buffman - R.A.N.G.E. Good to know, I have a level 3 set uhmwpe + ceramic then the same in level 4 .... I’ve been tempted to shoot at it but we may end up needing it lol. Thanks for the info .... gotta get your high paid camera assistants back next video lol
I wonder; is there any possibility some of the Russian 9mm _PDW ammo_ (7N21, 7N31 and so on) could achieve something similar? In other words, any chances you'd be able to test it?
@@BuffRANGE Fair. I saw Flat Range Operator test 7N31 against a helmet visor - he supposedly got individual bullets _from a friend,_ so I wondered if it's a possibility. But I guess it's not the best time to ship sketchy ammo parts from Russia:)
The 39b is still quite common in civilian hands in sweden i for example have over 500 for worse times. Its getting harder to get but still doable. A dude tested it on a swedish steel helmet vs regular nato load the nato didnt penetrate the helmet but the 39b punched thru even the back.
Amazing !!!! Thank you so much for sharing this!!! I'm subscribing to everything on your channel now! Thank you so much!! I absolutely ❤MP5 !!!! ❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥
If you have any more 9mm THV ammunition, could you please test it against level IIIA armor backed by ballistics gel? Of couse it would penetrate, but it would still be interesting to see the would channel as they were designed to decrease penetration in soft targets and increase the size of the wound channel.
This is a myth and marketing bullshit when the French tried to sell it. THV will work well only on basic level 1 armors and extremely well on unarmed opponents. It is an ideal round for civilian use. No overpenetration, no fragmentation, no expansion which is prohibited in EU
It can stop the round at longer ranges. If i found a problem worth throwing a vest on 4 im probably not going to be this close. And not to mention ive seen people take 10+ full sized 9mm bullets to the torso and still be in the fight,and this round is much smaller you best bet even if you land a penetrating hit you are still in for a fight.
@@BuffRANGE what is the regular manufacturing prozess of a 9mm dm91, how do they get the tungsten inside the bullet?. which other materials and aloids are used? which machines are needed?
And for today's life lesson - never get into a gunfight with someone who can afford really weird ammunition!
You put a smile on my face. Thanks.
I wonder what the Secret Service carries? Do they have AP rounds in their SMG?
@@BuffRANGE
Thats a great question. Part of me has to assume that they do.
I've found DOJ contracts for ammo and different agencies, but I cant remember if I've ever found SS contracts.
@@BuffRANGE
If they have Stiletto 9x19 AP, they'll blitz anything short of ceramic plates. Basically all steel on the market will fold like a cheap suit, and UHMWPE is a lost cause.
>MP5 can now perforate those "just as good" Armoured Repub plates
@FacePwn64
The P90 sucks.
Enough engineering and tungsten and anything can be done.
*loads Swiss P AP*
@FacePwn64
DU has... Toxicity issues. Generally speaking, it's environmentally and humanly friendly to use tungsten.
@@KoishiVibin
You sound like a very polite person. Maybe a little boring at parties, but very thoughtful nonetheless ;)
@Jim Beam
I know the name, but couldn't tell you who he is.
@@DEATH_TO_TYRANTS
Perhaps. If you ever decide to chose some personal protection, however, give me a call.
That is absolutely unreal. Even with tungsten I would never have conceived any 9mm load bypassing such armor.
Exactly. I held onto this round for probably a year trying to think what to shoot it at. I knew M39B and bullets like that could penetrate IIIA, and that seemed a waste for DM91. I wasn't sure how it would do against steel, or any ceramic with a strike face over .200". I'd love to test it more, maybe some day.
@@BuffRANGE very interested to see this round on steel and ceramic! That thing is insane! Would also be cool to see how it preforms out of different barrel lengths. Wonder if it could still penetrate a poly 3+ out of a glock 43 or something similar. If it failed to penetrate steel/ceramic out of the 7.7" scorpion, maybe try carbine barrel or something similar ect. Great vid man!
@@BuffRANGE
drive.google.com/file/d/1Wy94Awe83U2Mmeav1oS_wOYurdso_xtZ/view?usp=drivesdk
Documentation suggests inconsistent, but very possible, performance.
Due to armour Repub having shit quality, hardness of plates may factor into penetration.
@@LîNkxUSMC
Generally speaking, poly folds like paper against anything hard cored. As for ceramic, it's not cutting that. Even basic classification three, I'd bet my life that I'd survive.
@@KoishiVibin I can imagine I won't be getting my hands on that anytime soon :(
I'm truly amazed that ANY 9mm load would be capable of penetrating rifle armour. Very informative video, i never knew much about how different armour medians can perform better or worse at stopping certain rounds. Adds a lot more nuance to armour design and armour ratings. It would also explain how many armours are capable of stopping rounds they aren't rated for just as the inverse happened here.
David Weber wrote a lot of military scifi, and it always describes people using tungsten penetrators. Guess he was onto something.
Tungsten penetrators have been a thing since the 40s. They used then for tank armor piercing as well
@@cullenseago1519 I also could have sworn they used tungsten cores in some ww1 era k bullets. Might have been post WW1 but they definitely made k bullets with tungsten cores.
@@1810jeff no the k bullets were reg ball ammo no tungsten in them although Cullen is wrong they've been around since the 1930s
@@1810jeffever since more armoured stuff in ww1 people have been testing out hv tungsten and heavy metal type rounds.
Military Sci-Fi.........real military armor piercing ammunition has used tungsten penetrators as far back as WW2. Its nothing new, neither are the basic principles of armor penetration.
Dude that is frickin nuts. Bravo.
There are "White Out" pens which are literally "liquid paper" or "white out" in a pen, meant to correct very small errors. I find that they write very, very well on dark surfaces.
This DM91 round may be my favorite round youve tested. It's amazing seeing the plate didn't slow it down. It showed no signs of anything grabbing it.
People who engineer these types of munitions are amazing. Getting the weight, material, shape, charge and assembly process perfected to manufacture little amazing aeronautical bullets.
Humans are the best
First video of yours ive seen. Kinda unbelievable 9mm could make it through something a 308 cant. I love the setup you got with the chrony monitor. Subbed
308 definitely can. With the right bullet. Bullet construction is what defeats armor. More than velocity or mass.
@@justinlance4174 depends on the armor. With steel armor it's been noticed that speed is the more important factor. With uhmwpe, bullet construction seems to matter more than speed. Ceramics seem to be the hardest to penetrate and require both.
@@jonahpatton8879 yup m193 loaded to ~3450 fps at close range will put a neat little hole through your ar 500 target
Tarkov Devs: "see those rounds, write that down, write it!"
7N39 is good enough for 9x19, probably rarer too
Just imagine what these things would to for example a killa armor just fucking crazy but I kinda want them in the game
@@oldls7t_211
Look, it's easy to cut a polyethylene or steel. It's hard to cut ceramic.
@@KoishiVibin and killa armor happens to be polyethylene adding the fact that a zabralo is equal to a level 3 plate and killa is weaker than a zabralo it would cut right through it. and a ceramic plate shatters after a few hits so it could take this down aswell easily so whats your point
@@oldls7t_211
1: tarkov defined an IOTV as being made of titanium
2: tarkov defined GOST 6A as being analogous to NIJ IIIA.
Given that the Killa armour is a modded 6b13, and the 6b13 is ceramic, I'll go with a ceramic plate.
Also, it'll take upwards of fifty pistol rounds to beat ceramic armor plates
A friend ordered tungsten points from a source in China. He managed to mount projectiles on a lathe and bored out the center and epoxied a tungsten core into it. Yes it did,manage to get throughout level III armour. Yes where there is a will there is a way. Don't have any reload info on the rounds as to powder type used or grains of projectile. It would appear that a solid projectile would be the perfect host.
Build at your own risk. Nothing is impossible.
Damn your friends are cooler than my friends.
that seems like a very long way to go about getting tungsten core rounds
What about TIG welding rods?
Not just the poly plate but also passed through that soft armor and made a massive cavity into more than an inch of clay and wanted to keep going, thats down right scary!
Waiting for this round to come to Escape from Tarkov
Isn't this like 7n31?
IchBinEinNoob 7N31 penetrates 4.6mm thick AR500 steel at up to 10 m away when fired from PP-2000, not sure how this translates into performance against UHMWPE. Its probably about the same in terms of near point blank performance, but 7N31 losses its penetration performance really fast with increasing distances.
It's already in the game, 7n21's a tungsten core with a gang of powder in it. Different brands same features.
Or 6.5x25mm CBJ
FoMScratch 7N21 and 31 use a hardened steel core not tungsten.
Buffman you always amaze me with your tests,youbare such a underrated channel
Thank you very much!
"and i forgot my hearing protection"
ooooh in know the feeling ... lol
What???
Interesting! I'm mildly surprised but not really shocked. Tungsten is no joke, pretty hard stuff. Driven with some oomph I imagine it will go through a lot of stuff you wouldn't expect a 9mm to perforate.
I'm not surprised the tungsten core went through
Very good test. Paul Harrell would be proud :)
Very nice 9mm round.
Holy shit! Those tungsten cores are mean! I guessed no that it would go through..
In Germany the DM91 is illegal, because of the tungsten core.
It’s military use only.
Thank you for the added insight!
Well im sure I csn find some on the Street. :) No im not a thug. But i definitely want some
How about 3d printers/ammo reloader sets?
@stemup
Making AP pistol ammo is illegal here in the states.
The only way for it to get into civilian hands here is for it to have either been imported or made before the law was passed, or for it to have been made or imported by/for the military.
@@notachair4757 or if you have a 3d printer and an ammo reloading set
Excellent video. Low on BS chatter, high on good solid info. Great job!
I did not see the DM 91 when I was in the German army, however did hear about it. Believe only very specialised units get it.
I read that it is used by the Bundeswehr. Im No expert so i ask you, are they a specialised unit?
@@ToxicityD-Day Bundeswehr is the whole military.
Only used by the KSK and KSM probably two special forces of the Bundeswehr
Thanks for this test. I was looking for something like this on the whole internet but couldn't find anything.
This should teach yall its not about the speed its about the material the bullet is made of. Of course distance is a factor as well but you get the point
Right you are. Speed at times is one, but not always the sole factor for penetration.
Gotta get that 80gr SCS in a handload. Fort Scott's somewhat anemic (standard velocity) loading data gives a Power Pistol load that just about matches the velocity you get from the Evo...in a Glock 19. Silhouette powder will likely give you 1600fps or more from the G19 if you're willing to load to +P pressures.
I wonder what Norma r1 would do in 9x19
I love that you do all of this obscure stuff!! Here's a challenge: Obtain and test the Gecko 9mm AP if you can find it. I hear they are rare as hens teeth. Fun fact: Gecko 9mm ap was used in the biggy smalls shooting.
I was rooting for the tungsten core, but I am flabbergasted it went through a iii plate AND a layer of soft armor!
we call it "Wolfram"!
because "Germanium" was already taken.
Because heavy stone was a bit boring ... (actual translation of Tungsten in Swedish)...
@@allangibson8494 well i see that as a "swed-problem" :p
It's quite amazing that Green Tip ammunition and other metal cored ammunition can defeat UHMWPE armor and yet some of that same type of armor can still stop standard 50 caliber ball ammo (not sure what the survivability percentages of receiving a hit by 50 cal whilst wearing body armor are, but I'm certain they are better than without). In any case, this is why I think the best armor plates are hybrid plates with both UHMWPE and either steel, ceramic, kevlar or other secondary bullet resistant materials. Lastly, my guess is that the tungsten core 9mm is definitely going to penetrate that armor, especially with that particular ammo coming in such a hot load.
We found a bunch of those THV rounds in various captured weapons in iraq. I always wondered what they were. Thanks.
Nice work bringing together those esoteric rounds..I'm surprised it went through level 3 and 3a at the same time..
interesting on the DM91, though it looks like an alternative to the 5.7x28mm which is intended to penetrate kevlar and tumble in soft tissue. UHMWPE performs as expected against standard rounds, even the kevlar as intended. as for steel plates i doubt it though i'm sure i'd leave a hell of a mark and would likely leave the tungsten fused to it, if you've ever watch Taofledermaus he's had some really wonky slugs on there but one of the very very few that were capable of penetrating IIIa steel plate was a light weight poly carbonate slug with a 1/4" hardened drill bit inserted into the tip. not sure out of a normal pistol that the DM91 would be capable of as much as you're losing the muzzle velocity, speed beats armor in most cases as more energy = more pokey power.
These decap die inserts from carbide dies could definitely be repurposed for this application
Honestly, if you are going to wear plates, just go lvl 4.
I'd rather wear steel III+, it stops 55gr, 62gr and nearly everything else on earth short of .300 win mag and takes repeated hits. Level 4 is typically ceramic and degrades. You won't find this loading in the market, let alone at Walmart or on the streets.
@@tedhodge4830 lol and thats the reason i load m855a1.
Double the weight to protect yourself against exceedingly rare projectiles is not really worth it, imo.
@@Howdy762 For $3 a round on the blue moon that someone has a carrier and a level 3+ that I'm not even sure it penetrates anyway.
Most countries have restrictions to IV and is available as government purchase only.
Liberty defense ammo had similar results. And it’s readily available. Great video ☺️
Liberty ammo can't penetrate level III. some types of IIIA yes, but not a rifle rated level III
You can repeat this with a tungsten rod the rite diameter and a Hollow point or even drill a hole in a bullet and epoxy it in . I know it will not be as good but I am sure it would shoot good enough .I would personally use a copper bullet hollow point and buy the corresponding gage to fit so I could get a true to center as I could .
That would be an interesting test
@@BuffRANGE I am a back yard ballistic tester of all things go bang myself :}
Great video! Awesome to see these quirky rounds in use.
Glad you enjoyed!
Man I found your videos from SGammo. Your videos are always good.
sGammo is good people! Thanks for stopping by
Would have been cool to see if you had one more round to use in a G17/G19
Awesome channel, I’ve been watching for years. I’m a big fan of both 9MM and 5.7x28mm.
Thank you for sticking around :D! I've been working on trying to get my hands on the Diamondback DBX and the EA 5.7 rifle :D
This is the video that made me sub to your channel
Thank you kindlY!
I'd love to find the specs on that tungsten penetrator (mass and diameter) to see what sectional energy it's hitting with. I'm still surprised it went through a supposed class III+ plate, but a hole is a hole.
I will just keep sharing your videos until you get 1 million subscribers 🤪 keep up the hard work my friend.
I'll take it! Every little bit helps!
Good ad for Shotstop. Never heard of them but I will have to check it out with these results. I don't own any poly armor...but it might be on my xmas wish list. :-)
Fun Fact... The curves of the THV ammunition are the same sort of idea as the Xtreme Penetrator/Defender ammunition. But it definitely aids in armor penetration, and you dont want to market that to cops. So the Screwdriver bullets (besides feeding better) have the extra cross section so it cant penetrate. But still gets the extra fluid damage.
Extra fluid damage? That's largely been unproven to my knowledge, and most of their bullets aren't even approaching rifle like velocities where that happens. My judgement on those bullets is still out, but perhaps there will be an LE evaluation of them at some point.
6:41 correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't bullets be more effective if they were entirely made out of steel or tungsten?
well in theory yes, but then you'd destroy the rifling of the gun shooting it.
@@BuffRANGE now I understand.
No. Cross-sectional density counts. You will need more hammerforce to drive a thicker nail into a wooden wall, the same is with bullets
Tungsten is EXTREAMLEY dense and strong , even so it’s a surprize it penetrated
I’d really like to know how that tungsten round would perform out of my 10 -1/2” stainless bull barrel when loaded with a +p+ load. I really only mess with +p+ loads with my stainless bull barrel. I have the heavy buffer spring and 7oz buffer from kvp and weighted cmmg carrier tuned to run suppressed but i dont shoot suppressed BUT it acts like a delayed blowback with seriously hot loads in a ar set up. If you want to rock a serious 9mm ar pistol set up I would highly recommend my set up.
must be easy to make your own tungsten cored bullets, just get some cheap tungsten PCB drill bits, grind/snap off the end and use the shank in a drilled 9mm bullet. worth a try?
I would be worried about projectile stability.
Why not green TIG welding electrodes?
Still waiting for that Dagny Dagger APHP ammo to hit public manufacturing at some point. The stuff cuts through IIIA like butter
I've been waiting too !
Damn, wasn’t expecting it to go through the Kevlar. That’s pretty insane for a 9mm round.
This 9mm tungsten round is similar in principle to APDS.
Besides, UHMWPE is very specific in which type of round penetrate sometime. Russian conduct experiment with these type of armor. They find out that 7.62x39(forget the type of round)at a certain velocity, will go through the plate meanwhile at higher velocity, the plate will stop it.
I have discovered this from time to time as well when I was doing some subsonic testing :D
If you can't get it in the US but you got did does it require special licensing or something?
Typically velocity independent of weight defeats steel plates and for laminates weight defeats laminate plates.
It's not weight, so much as how resistant bullet is to melting and deformation.
As a collector I can't believe you even found thv rounds. Hurt me to see you shoot them.
I am in South Africa and manufacture my own design THV's. It is a pity that you can not have them in the US.
Need to get some zinc cast from Elvis ammo to test
Amazing. I really wonder if the ceramic iii+ designed to stop m855 will have stopped this round??
Ehhh
Sub IIIs, basically super IIIAs like the L210 will kitbosh basically any handgun ammo in existence, bar something spicy like the RSh-12
A proper threat 3+ will bounce this shit easy.
At this point, the lead in bullets just acts like a sabot.
Yes or Slap 50 Cal.
Yep. It's actually an aluminum casing (not lead0, but it was stuck in the plate when I tore it apart)
The scary part is with a drilling jig and some tungsten rod you can make this your self.
My first thought when he said how hard it is to get was "I got TIG(tungsten inert gas) electrodes in my garage that look about that size. That would be a hell of an experiment for his channel. How cool would it be to be able to make your own rounds that could Pierce 3A+ for under 50 bucks?
@@chasemc69 The problem is I think making such rounds would be illegal. The ATF would flip if he posted himself making them.
@@davidhenderson3400 ok just did a bunch of research and it seems that you're absolutely right about buying/selling ammo that is made out of tungsten or has a tungsten core. Whether or not you can have that ammo seems to be the gray area in the law. If he can legally possess the round that he shot, I can't see how it would be illegal to make more for personal/lawful use, right?
Cool vídeo, New sub
I am Wonder that even 9mm with tungsten core can penetrate 3+
Those 7 3/4” barrels are awesome.
Oh snap. I know that feeling of forgetting hearing protection. oof
Whaaaaaaaaat. I did not expect to see that. 9mm pill going 1600fps going through a 3+!
I had been operating on the understanding that when it comes to personal body armor and small arms, velocity was 90%+ of the equation and materials and construction could rarely make a difference. Like with a 3+ plate, under 2800 or so fps I would have guessed it didn't matter if it was 50 grains or 124; .22 caliber or 9mm; lead, copper, steel, or tungsten. Within the range of common calibers and weights, say up to .45 cal and under 300 grains, you could only lower penetration velocity by a couple hundred FPS for a given plate by optimizing design and nothing too far beneath that 2800-ish would go in. Guess I was quite wrong.
It's a almost a per material type consideration. When looking at UHMWPE used in this plate, bullet construction plays key. I have sent M80A1 at subonic velocities right through a plate like this, and M855A1 poked a bit out the back. Yet it can take M193 at over 3400 fps.
Steel on the other hand, has troubles over 3100 fps for lead core types. It can handle M855 very well, and M855A1 as long as under 3000 fps.
Ceramic needs speed and construction to defeat it.
@@BuffRANGE Fascinating. That’s the first I’ve learned of ceramic plates being significantly different from steel as far as what can penetrate a fresh plate. Good to know m855(non a1) has some practical applications now - back when I was new to guns there was talk of m855 being banned so I bought a bunch at inflated prices. Then I learned it was inferior to good old m193 in terminal performance AND penetration in all but a few specific scenarios and it wasn’t banned after all; so it is common and sucky. Well apparently not so sucky any longer with ceramic in play. =)
2 boxes of fort Scott munitions that I bought had rounds that weren't within intolerances and fort Scott claims a nasty wound cavity because they say that their rounds are designed to tumble once they hit a Target
Yep. Tumbling is a method of wounding but a short bullet that tumbles may limit damage compared to JHP
How do you think something like the Dragon Fang or T6B would handle this?
Dragon Fang? T6B?
*What?*
Not good those rounds are overhyped as fuck it's just a chunk of soft copper milled out to look more dangerous in reality its a tiny bit better than ss190 if it's better at all.
Subbed. Amazing content keep it coming!
Thanks for the sub!
one thing to remember is ur doing a direct hit witch is rare in a gun fight it's been known to deflect a 30-06 just wont do it direct hit
true. The second you increase the hit angle you increase the performance of the armor to a degree. MIL-46100E 1/4" won't stop M2AP 30-06 head on, but it can at a 45° angle.
Could you imagine something crazy like a full auto mac-11 in 9mm firing that DM91? It dumps ammo at 1,200rpm
Mac 11 is not 9x19mm its 9x17mm / .380acp a big difference sadly
I call that a FAIL no matter what. Sticking with the Safelife IIIa+ vest I ordered May, 2021 along with their new fras plates.
I was in a training class awhile back and our instructor had us practicing taking 2 shots to the chest and 2 to the pelvic. I think they need to make some armour for your privates.
They have some flap style one ones.
Another excellent video!
Thank you! Cheers!
damn, i guessed the last round to be 1600, and it was exactly 1600 :D thats a surprise and a welcome one
No you didn't
7:28 DM91 Passthrough Shot
Can you buy the projectiles for personal handloads? I know you mentioned that the complete round is very hard to come by, but I am curious as to if the projectiles themselves are available. That EXTREMLEY impressive. that'd be impressive for most intermediate rifle rounds, let alone 9mm.
I have never seen just the projectile for sale..
That's wild I've seen a level III+ steel plate stop a .338 Lapua magnum.
Steel is good at stopping projectiles of non hardened cores and under 3000 fps.
@@BuffRANGE some high quality level III or III+ plates will stop 5.56 going a little over 3,000 FPS I'm curious how a penetrator moving at only 9mm velocity's would do but these are so rare that I'll probably never find out.
@@jerryjorel mainly because PE used in this video is weak against hard material which the 9mm used tungsten as a core. :)
Hey we want to see those .243 videos!
Waiting on ammo
Wow, I’d have lost a lot of money on that bet. I saw it happen, still hard to believe. Amazing really
I am pretty sure you can get a tungsten rod, a drill press, and some glue and make whatever you need to get the job done
Awesome stuff! Very interesting, wish I owned some of those rounds 😂
If you look hard enough locally (South Africa), you'll find RAM THV's in component form.
@@thepatriotsrage661 How did you know I'm from SA? 😂 I'll have a look around! I'd love to buy some!
@@ruangermishuys6127 With a name like yours, you're from the SADC region for sure, obvious ;)
I seen a vid on TH-cam a while back where they had ammunition from Germany that can penetrate level three
Got a link?
Nope. But I'll try 2 find the vid again
Excellent video mate 👌👌👌👍👍👍
1554, aaand I forgot my ears. Been there. Cheers, good video.
We were shooting 500 mag under a covered firing line today and was like NOPE I am wearing these MOFO the entire time until I step back from that line :D
Fromvwhat i can find the "+" isn't an official NIJ rating. Companies put it on the tag if it can take more than one hit or if it effectively resists one or more rounds beyond what the rating indicates. I may not be digging deep enough, though.
You are correct. The “+” is a marketing term usually to denote typically m193 coverage, or m855. Or anything else the company wants to include a rating for. With the new RF1/2 standards will help cover what most give to a “+” rating.
@@BuffRANGE Thank you for giving me more info to look up. I tend to go by the Aikido defense of "the best defense for a puch is to not be there." But sometimes trouble comes looking for me.
Glad to see the THV being "wunderwaffe" myth is debunked.
It would seem that's the case. Now a bullet like this does excel at aramid fiber penetration, but compared to some newer tech ammo, it falls behind. an 80gr solid copper bullet out penetrates this design..
9 mm Super with a Tungsten pointed insert. Go right through I believe
Even more velocity. I wonder what it would take for DM91 to penetrate steel.
I have an amor test no one has done yet. At least I can't find it. I would like to see what lvl 3+ with soft 3a behind it as a trauma pad would stop. I use this set up on my front protection. Would this give lvl 4 quality protection?
It would not make it level IV. If a bullet penetrates the front of the of a III+ that soft armor has little chance of stopping it depending on the bullet.
TWC has a couple vids of this and the 3A gets cut through like it isn't even there.
In the beginning you said it’s a 3+ plate at the end you said if you step up to a 3+ plate results may vary. Was this in fact a 3+ plate? Either way still impressive
Yeah sorry. I meant a ceramic strike face or even a level III+ steel plate. This is really only considered iii+ because it stops m193.
Buffman - R.A.N.G.E. Cool, still like I said either way impressive. So 3+ steel plates protect against m855 where uhmwpe protect against m193 ? Awesome stuff.
@@itsamk18-ish Yep. Armor advantages are very much based on materials. UHMWPE seen here can stop very fast moving bullets, but have issues with hardened materials like the penetrator in M855. Steel can stop M855 and even M855A1 (as long as it's under 3000 fps), but any M193 going over 3100 fps it will have trouble with. Ceramic backed with UHMWPE stops many varied types of bullets depending on how thick the ceramic is.
Buffman - R.A.N.G.E. Good to know, I have a level 3 set uhmwpe + ceramic then the same in level 4 .... I’ve been tempted to shoot at it but we may end up needing it lol. Thanks for the info .... gotta get your high paid camera assistants back next video lol
@@BuffRANGE
I wouldn't consider it Threat 3+ tbh. M193 is a given for any classification threes worth their salt.
Can you try using pistol carbines that have 16 inch length barrels( or longer) with calibers like 10mm, 357, 44 mag and higher for your testing?
Send them to him
I can if there's a test where you feel that would help. With larger bullets, less pointy bullets you start lessening the chance of penetration.
Camera angle in the start makes you look shorter than you are. Great Vid bud
Thanks 👍
I wonder; is there any possibility some of the Russian 9mm _PDW ammo_ (7N21, 7N31 and so on) could achieve something similar?
In other words, any chances you'd be able to test it?
I would think favorable results from those PDW rounds, but I have no way to acquire them in the US :(
@@BuffRANGE Fair. I saw Flat Range Operator test 7N31 against a helmet visor - he supposedly got individual bullets _from a friend,_ so I wondered if it's a possibility. But I guess it's not the best time to ship sketchy ammo parts from Russia:)
The 39b is still quite common in civilian hands in sweden i for example have over 500 for worse times. Its getting harder to get but still doable.
A dude tested it on a swedish steel helmet vs regular nato load the nato didnt penetrate the helmet but the 39b punched thru even the back.
M39B is some rad stuff!
Amazing !!!! Thank you so much for sharing this!!! I'm subscribing to everything on your channel now!
Thank you so much!! I absolutely ❤MP5 !!!!
❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥
Thanks for subbing!
Wow. Awesome.
Would be really cool to see a versus between M855A1 and 62 grain Controlled Chaos from Lehigh
Maybe Andrew from the TCB can weigh in since he's tested that 62gr CC in a Gorilla ammo load, but to me the M855A1 bullet performance is superior.
I wonder if it is legal to build your own armor piercing ammo? For personal use?
It has to be for rifle ammo but yes technically, or also handgun ammo that doesn't meet the US definition of armor piercing while still piercing armor
If you have any more 9mm THV ammunition, could you please test it against level IIIA armor backed by ballistics gel? Of couse it would penetrate, but it would still be interesting to see the would channel as they were designed to decrease penetration in soft targets and increase the size of the wound channel.
I unfortunately have none left :(
@@BuffRANGE noooo 😭
This is a myth and marketing bullshit when the French tried to sell it. THV will work well only on basic level 1 armors and extremely well on unarmed opponents. It is an ideal round for civilian use. No overpenetration, no fragmentation, no expansion which is prohibited in EU
It can stop the round at longer ranges. If i found a problem worth throwing a vest on 4 im probably not going to be this close. And not to mention ive seen people take 10+ full sized 9mm bullets to the torso and still be in the fight,and this round is much smaller you best bet even if you land a penetrating hit you are still in for a fight.
Very interesting round...
Why not try liberty civil defense and pilgram torch ammo and also novx 9mm
They are not a threat for rifle rated plates :D
any idea on how to manufacture that bullet in a easy and cheap way?
No I do not..
@@BuffRANGE what is the regular manufacturing prozess of a 9mm dm91, how do they get the tungsten inside the bullet?. which other materials and aloids are used? which machines are needed?
@@lopo8000 That is outside my expertise sorry :(.
LMFAO 😂😂😂 "and I forgot my hearing protection"