The general consensus about the movement is negetive only. I got 2 tissot watches and both are quartz. Tissot is basically a quarts watch company, if you go for their quartz varients you will be very happy for the value they provide. The fit and finish are usually two price bracket higher than what they sell for. Just never get their automatic watches.
@@ediri8354 Or buy a 25 jewel version, like the Gentleman. It has a normal escapement but a silicon.based hairspring - if thats not too plastic-like for you :-)
Just don't buy the watches with the 23-jewels, High-Tech-Escapement C07111 movement. It's an entry-level movement for their cheaper mechanical watches. They have a higher-grade version of the movement in their more expensive pieces.
Plastic escape wheel, plastic pallet fork, plastic durability.... Personally, I think Tissot should use wood instead of plastic, which would be more environmentally friendly, and in addition, the watch would generate a nice supply of very fine sawdust to mop up any surplus moebius left hanging around the escapement.
This is a very ignorant comment in sorry. Those plastic parts are derlin which is very strong and used in many industries and heavy equipment. Just as plastic and rubber make a gshock more resistant than any steel watch, plastic can perform other functions just as good or better than metal. The reason you don’t like it is because when you were growing up you were told plastic was cheap and bad. But in fact there’s no reason why plastic couldn’t do the function properly
If you compare the plastic escapement of the Swatch 2840 - used in the pre-Sistem 51 - you will find exactly this pallet fork and escapement wheel. It isn't even new, it is old... And the major joke: The pallet fork needs lubrication, a special Moebius grease.
Exactly. I'm no expert on watches in general, but people shouldn't be too indignant about a plastic escapement because there is a genuine reason for it. Plastic, or more likely, nylon, is a better shock absorber and therefore helps with vibration, which is precisely why it's the escapement and not so much other parts that is made of the offending material. Don't believe me? Go kick the side of your car and see what happens. well preferably don't as it will most likely leave a big dent. Now go kick the side of your refuse bin with the same force. What happens? No dent. So I know people will have a hard time accepting this, but it's actually an improvement. You won't find it in high end watches of course, because people don't expect it and manufacturers know what their response will be but they would use it if they could. This Le Locle is actually a really nice watch by the way if you can accept it for what it is. I picked one up for under £400 in the January sales from a local jeweller, very happy with it and it definitely looks like it cost a lot more.
@@severnsea : plastic is flexible and VERY bad at resisting friction, which is exactly the opposite of you want for the escapement. Also, plastics hardens and becomes brittle. It also shrinks. In something made with incredibly small tolerances, this is just a very bad idea. But in all reality, these watches are exactly like Seiko 5, you buy it, wear it for a few years until it starts slowing down, throw it in a drawer and buy something else....and Swatch group knows that. They want you to buy new watches, not service them.
@@keesketsers5866 bs. Anyone with half a brain cell will replace the movement in a Seiko 5, NH35/36s are so cheap there's literally no reason not to do it, for 30 euros the watch is good for another 15 years.
Tissot is Swatch's lowest tier brand. Boomers get upset about what they think is plastic. It does its job well. Anyway, a few steps up the Swatch ladder to Certina and they don't use this "plastic" part. I wonder what this guy thinks if the "plastic" part in the Omega Speedmaster movement 😂
I have this watch in its original form, before the Powermatic 80. It keeps time better than my CHR Ward chronometer which was over double the price, as does my other Tissot (T Sport from 2010). Tissot are excellent watches - accurate and great value for money.
In many areas of engineering and manufacturing, "engineered plastics" are the right choice. This refers to plastics that are made with certain characteristics to high standards. They have known properties and pass rigorous testing. I don't know if that is the quality level of the material for these watch parts. In any case, I am a bit of a traditionalist about mechanical watches and feel these should be made from stainless steel or brass regardless of the plastics that are available. Keep in mind though that the use of plastics for some parts _may_ be a well-considered, engineering decision.
he doesn't consider or explain anything. he just says: look, plastic! as if that was supposed to mean anything. he's offended spiritually, not technically - seems a bit ignorant.
I believe the plastic has some amazing characteristics such as high hardness and low friction, i don't think it's a bad aspect, new materials are part of any engineer life. We need to see how it goes on the field. So far i think Tissot is doing pretty well if you consider the amount of PRX out there.
When you buy a watch which claims to have "high tech elements", you expect that to include jewels at the high friction points. There is no plastic, no matter how fancy shmansy it may be that is more effective, more advanced, more "high tech" or more desireable than rubies.
@@schell0118 But jewels are lower tech than modern plastics. I immediately thought of a non-traditional material when the escapement was described as "high-tech". Plastic was an option. Some plastics are literally the least-wearing or strongest-per-diameter materials known to mankind.
@@zbnmth I agree. Unfortunately it is only a plus to those who approach these issues from an engineering aspect. Emotionally, to most people, it is plastic. I get both sides of the argument.
Absolutely, especially if you consider that ETA builds movements with that plastic escapement since 1991! So they got a little bit over 30 years of experience with that.
The Tissot Gentleman use the C07.811 escapement with a silicone hairspring, but a traditional escapement, if a buyer feels "plastic" has nothing to do in an escapement, but want a Tissot with 80 h power reserve. The 23 jewel version of Powermatic 80 has plastic escapement (but a metallic hairspring). The 25 jewel version has mettalic escapement with the two extra jewels located at the fork, but a silcon-based hairspring.
ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING. I have had some Tissots with good results. Currently still have the NON-Powermatic Visodate with less power reserve but more smoothness regarding the second hand. I presume Tissot will explain away the plastic escapement as a weight-saving measure as well as a means to keep the cost to the consumer down. At least Hamilton spelled backwards is Notlimah which has no negative connotation.
Hamilton use the same ETA based movement, but I have to say mine runs 0-+1+seconds a day so a tiny piece of plastic doesn't bother me as long as the watch runs accuracy.,... which it does, they say it's for magnetic reasons which is fare enough
I have this watch. It works great, lovely piece. Plastic: Does it matter if a) it works well, and b) it has durability, c) it reduces wear? But yeah, your rage is palpable.
@@rosomak8244why must you lie? I have one 3-year-old seastar 2000 and 5-year-old seastar 1000, the difference is 3-4 secs/MONTH. Secondly, this is a serviceable model, it is not difficult to change any gears. 🤡
A commenter on one of the reviews posted the below previously. I had understood the plastic parts were one of the features of the specific movement. The rate is adjustable by adjusting the eccentric screw as it's a free sprung balance. The plastic part is a Nivachron hairspring that was co-developed with swatch group and APRP, with that it made the watch anti-magnetic, and pallet fork with the escape wheel made out of the composite, it createsless friction and less impact. You know good things for a hairspring. C07 movements are highly serviceable, so it's not just throwaway movement, they use special lubricant compared to the common swiss lever 9415 oil which if other watchmaker out there have the proper lubricant they could fix this watch too. They exchange the movement so the turn around time of servicing is faster while the old movement is sent to Switzerland to be serviced.
Thank you for being honest as a professional in watchmaking.. because not everybody know about that "plastic" thing, and the advertising obviously not mentioning that thing very clear.. so, if we're not a watch enthusiast, maybe we didn't even notice about that problem in long term usage. That's also the reason I choose the green Tissot PRX 40mm in quartz version.. because for the price it's ask, I think it's worth the value.
Hello Kalle, wonderful video. Big fan of your work, Christiaan Huygens would be proud! I sent you an urgent email, forgive me for pestering you about it here, but please let me know your thoughts as, well, time is of the essence. Thanks again and keep up the great work. Best regards, TGV
It’s well known that the C07.111 has a plastic escapement. C07.6xx version has a regular escapement. C07.8xx version has a regular escapement plus a silicon balance spring. I agree, plastic pallet fork and escape wheel has no place in a Swiss movement. C07.1xx movements are considered disposable- the movement typically costs less than a service. All the auto Tissot PRX line has the plastic escapement. The Gentleman line has the regular escapement. I’m somewhat surprised to learn the plastic escapement (C07.1xx) is in the Le Locle line which is Tissot’s biggest seller worldwide. I’m not a fan of the line, which costs basically the same as the Gentleman. I guess the takeaway is be suspicious of a modified/updated 2824 ETA movement with 23 jewels lol (they are here to stay)
Thank you for details. This means my Gentleman with 25 jewels and C08711 has a regular escapement, for what it´s worth. I´m very happy with how it runs anyway.
Every so often Amazon drops the price of the Powematic 80 Gentleman watch to $425. Right now they have the blue dial version for $425. At least with the Tissot Gentlemen watch you get the regular escapement and not a plastic one like in the PRX. Of course there are still other minor problems like people complaining about the bracket having sharp edges.
Man even the Seiko 7S26 which has no hand winding/hacking has a jeweled pallet fork. Even the Miyota 8200a has a jeweled pallet fork. What even is this garbage.
I have a PR100 Powermatic 80 with plastic escapement. I have had it for 2 years as my daily driver and currently runs at +2 sec/day. The most accurate watch I have owned. Yeah, same accuracy as an coaxial METAS Omega.
Yes, that's the problem with the 23 jewel powermatic 80. Although the plastic part should last long and be durable. The 25 jewel version in Hamilton and mido doesn't have the plastic parts if your interested in those instead.
Isn't the rule something like 60% of the value has to be Swiss made? Better than it was, it used to be 50% until a few years ago. To be honest it's not like it was a century ago, the rest of the world has caught up and a watch doesn't have to be Swiss to be a good watch. I know the purists won't agree but, hey, nobody cares what watch you wear anyway. Most people these days wouldn't know one brand from another.
There’s a reason why Tissot spelled backwards is “Toss it”. They’ve been making bad decisions. I’ve seen it with the Swissmatic… a literal unserviceable movement because it’s glued together (no screws). What the actual hell.
If not mistaking: the Swissmatic is based on the System 51 (which was mfgr. for Swatch), incredibly the watches which they put the El-cheapo movements inside really look good (the old saying: if it’s too good to be true, it ain’t), the difference in a quality movement are very small money wise. ETA needs better administrators to survive their reputation of quality products.😢
Tissot is part of swatch group as well as certina,hamilton etc. And they don t make their own decisions. If swatch group decides that c07.111 will be the new standard, it will be the new standard
I learned this a while ago and it completely blew me away! From one grumpy old man to another, it is just another step backward for them. We see again the slow and painful demise of a once great watchmaker. Excellent video my friend, people need to know what they are buying.
@@DISK2000 It is designed to use 5-10 years, then toss it and buy again. No, thanks i just buy a similar seiko, orient or citizen automatic, with better economic value (I do not comment on resale value.)
The plastic parts (escape wheel & pallet fork) only apply to the Tissot PRX Powermatic 80 watch, which carries a C07.111 movement (23 juwels). The new Tissot Gentlemen Powermatic 80 watch has a C07.811 movement with all metal parts, a silicon balance spring and 25 juwels.
I believe you are correct, Sir. This is why I got myself a Gentleman. I believe the C07.111 is also in a number of other Tissot and Swatch group models though. LeLocle has it too I think
I just panicked thinking I had bought a 'plastic' watch 😒so I got it under the microscope... thankfully, it turns out that you are correct and the Gentleman is a different movement number!... Phew ☺
I agree i have a 25 jewels powermatic 80 and all is well with the full metal parts plus silicon is used in many higher ETA calibre, so be careful only with the 23 jewels IMO
Wow. As a new watch enthusiast on a serious budget Tissot is a brand that is hyped up for folks in my price range. I appreciate your honesty and giving everyone an honest assessment as a professional watch maker. Your video was easy to follow and humorous. Keep up the great work and I'll be sure to keep up with your content! Thanks
I'm curious if the impulse jewel is plastic as well. Otherwise the ruby might slowly chew away at the pallet fork? Some plastics have very good abrasion qualities though. Also curious about the long term stability of the plastic it self.
Question: can you simply replace the existing plastic pallet fork with a traditional jewel tipped one? Or is it light enough as plastic that a traditional one would be too heavy and unbalanced?
I think the polymer parts and the modified mainspring coupled with the lower beat rate to 21,600 is how they were able to push out to 80 hours in the Powermatic 80 movement, or at least I think that's what happened here.
Ive been wearing a prx pm80 since 2021 almost daily, and i have not had any issues with reliability or accuracy so far. Granted its nothing like my GS speingdrive, but imo my prx is a tough beater of a time piece, i really enjoy it.
Two years is far too short a period to draw any conclusions. Most of my watches are over fifty year old. I suspect the life of those plastic components is around five years, based on experience.
Just a thought on this subject. I have two Omega Speedmasters. One is the broad arrow version and the other is what we often refer to as the Hesalilte sandwich. The broad arrow version has a Delrin brake and the sandwich has a metal one, presumably because you can see it. The reason I was told is because the Delrin version has better wear properties but then surely the brake in an Omega chronograph would get far less wear than an escapement. It still bothers me though when I think of a plastic part in my Speedmaster.
First of all, you look surprised by this. This should be common knowledge for a watchmaker. Second, the pallet fork is not just "plastic": it is a synthetic material; but so are the rubies on a classic pallet fork. Why did they do this;? Well to make an affordable 80 hour power reserve watch. It is more affordable because placing the rubies on the pallet fork, is one of the only tasks that requires manual intervention and that is expensive. As you may know, there is not just one Powermatic 80 movement. There are several. The ones with number C07.1xx, with the synthetic pallet fork, the C07.6xx with a classic pallet fork and the C07.8xx witjh a classic pallet fork and a silicium hairspring. The synthetic pallet fork is not necessarily worse than the classic pallet fork. It all depends on the material that was used.
Thanks for this informative video! I just wish it could have been posted, and in my suggested videos before literally bought this exact watch a little over a year ago. It sucks that what I had thought was a nice watch, is actually a mere conveyance of a nice quality watch.
Thanks for explaining the the movement issues. Please can you explain how likely these parts are to fail? Do you think that Tissot expect these watches or movements to be disposable ie just replace the movement rather than repair it? Many thanks
When servicing, they replace the entire movement. This to me is like replacing the actial watch. There is no connection with a movement that is simply replaced at every service.
Any moderately priced mechanical could just have the movement replaced, including the Seiko 7s26, which he just made a video about speaking well of it.@@anandmorris
I don't see it as being a big deal. The watch will work for 5 years when it will need to be serviced. These parts can be replaced as part of the service, if needed.
@@anandmorris People keep repeating this without any evidence. These are just as serviceable as the regular 2824. Tissot maintenance procedure states that ANY MOVEMENT may be replaced OR repaired. This was introduced even before any of the Powermatic movement family.
@@anandmorris It all comes down to economics. Would you pay a shop $10,000.00 to meticulously rebuild your car engine or would you rather pay him $5,000.00 to install a brand new crate engine from the original manufacturer?
I appreciate the insight into these kind of practices. Without digging further, the movement and its finishing looked so nice (even in the display case back). Is there any argument from a technical side for a plastic escapement, or is it just cost savings?
Questions: If you replaced those plastic parts with the traditional metal ones, would the watch run any better? You can test that yourself. Do you estimate that the plastic escapement will have a shorter or longer life than the traditional one? Why? If you could have a movement made of ANY metal or metals you choose, what metals would you choose, cost no object.
Objectively plastic should be more durable and lubricant free. Anyway I knew about this from the internet. There is the same movement with the metal part in the Gentlemen line if I'm not mistaken.
@@YehoshuaMenachem that's what I would have thought - lower friction coefficient on plastics should result in less wear. So maybe it's not such a bad thing that the pallet fork is plastic?
Also basically when you take the watch in for its periodic service, you’ll have to replace the pallet fork which probably only cost a few bucks. Not a big deal. There’s a reason why Tissots cost what they cost.
The Powermatic movements are built with quality parts but entirely by automated processes. No human labour for the actual construction and assembly. This keeps the costs down and increases consistency by minimizing the possibility of human error.
i knew about this but i feel conflicted. Personally i find le locle to be beautiful and i want it, but it had this issue. Any way to avoid / alleviate / aftermarket upgrade it?
C'est dans l'air du temps, on produit à bas coût et on vend cher, c'est de l'argent facile et une vision à très court terme. Les chinois pendant ce temps progressent tous les jours... Mais je ne suis qu'un petit horloger de province sans grande expérience.
I have a seastar in for repair at the mo, the crown wont close and the rotor spins when you wind it after it has stopped. So see what happens when i get it back.
What are the specs of the plastic? Just because it is plastic doesn't mean it is bad. Are Magpul magazines bad because they eliminated the steel feed lips? Of course not. It is not as simple as "plastic bad!" My Tissot Gentlemen with the Powermatic 80 is the most accurate mechanical watch I own from my testing, after wearing for 14 days I calculated it was only 0.86 seconds per day slow.
I gifted my stepfather the exact same watch and serviced it last year. Thankfully for him and me it was the previous 'upgraded lol' version and has a true eta 2824-2 inside 👍🏽 High tech escapement 😂
@@Revenant.Wristwatch I knew it had a 2482-2 inside prior to purchase (cannot go wrong with that movement) but I certainly didn't know that they had gone and done this on the new versions :(
This is amazing, thank you for this video. The YT watch community has a lot of influencer that do seem to know a lot about watches but, I really think we need ACTUAL watchmakers taking the lead and breaking things down like this. I mean how would we as watch enthusiasts ever know about something like this? I’d never risk opening up a movement so my trust would be totally in the hands of the maker 😮
My understanding is that there are different grades of the powermatic movement with the metal parts 100% servicable. Also i really dont get why a diposable movement is that big a deal. If popping in a new one is cheaper than servicing by all means ill take the new movement.
This is true. As for the grade with the plastic escapement (delrin) this movement is also perfectly serviceable. It just has a plastic escapement. Truth is regardless of what grade or even if it was a 2824 old school movement, swatch group will just put a new movement in as it names more sense.
Hi, so is it silicon or plastic? Is there anyway to test it to be sure? This movement has been in use for a number of years now, how is the feedback from custoners?
Plastic. We never hear feedback from those who bought in the early days, 2013-2014. I don't think there's anything wrong with the movement. It's the idea that Swatch broke with tradition and just to save a very small amount of money.
@@robertbrandywine It's not just to save money. It actually works better when trying to get the longer power reserve. Requires less energy to stay consistent and accurate. That way they can use a longer and thinner main spring to get the 80hr reserve.
I bought a PR100 on Jomashop for about 200USD + taxes and shipping to Europe. That Powermatic 80 version with the plastic fork. I have to say, I was very positively suprised by the quality of the watch for that price, it was far better than a Seiko 5 costing the same. Even with the exhibition case, the calibre looks decent, comparing to the Seiko 7S26. I dont mind having plastic parts for such a nice watch for that price. Also, the accuracy of watch is on the COSC level, there was even a series of PR100 for less then 250USD with the certificate - same as Tudor :D In my opinion, Tissot and the Swatch is trying to do some real life testing or maybe experiments with the large amount of low-tier watches :-) I dont mind, for that price, it makes sense, on the other hand, I would not pay the full price for Powermatic 80 in PRX (like - 800 USD in Europe). Not speaking about that Sistem51 in the Swatchplain. On the other hand, I was able to service my Seikos for very small amount of money, and I would doubt, if a standard service is even possible with the Plastomatic... But its still running well and I did not heard any actual complaints about the quality of plastick P80s, yet. Unlike for the infamous sistem51, which seems to be piece of garbage about even 1 year of usage...
This movement is part of a family of 3 movement Tissot is using. You have the C07.111, the C07.601 and the C07.811. The 111 comes with 23 jewels and the 'high tech escapement' without the 2 pallet fork jewels, hence 23. The 601 uses normal materials, the 811 has a silicon hairspring. I personally checked. I have the 811 version, on which, so far, I do not have any problems. I personally think that plastic parts in a watch are a no-no, however, there are a lot of Seikos using plastic stuff on places Seiko says improves the function of the watch. Whilst that might be the case, in this specific case, I have to agree with Kalle: This is bordering on pure fraud, is misleading, and by no means are these parts anywhere near 'high tech'. I have to say, I am glad I bought the part which is not containing the plastic, because all in all, and Kalle also mentions this, the movement itself based on the ETA 2824-2 is a solid movement
Yes, especially the .601 and .811 movements are perfectly nice automatics with 3+ days power reserve, _except_ that you can't buy parts from the manufacturer so you'd have to rely on donor movements. I'd prefer an SW200-1 -- or rather spend a bit more and get an SW300-1 (Sellita's ETA 2892-A2 clone). I'd gladly give up some power reserve to be more confident about maintaining the movement long term (w/o sending the watch to its maker & having the movement replaced). I don't like this idea of trashing a perfectly nice movement that just needs service.
Sir...as an Aircraft Tech and engineer Ive noticed a huge lowering of quality from RR engines to airframe fitment (Doors falling off at 17K feet). Im retired now, my peers always wanted to do quality work to maintain Airworthiness but employees today are more interested in their tick tock then setting engine core bearing tolerances.
You are 100 percent right! This is also why I went for the Gentleman Powermatic 80 Silicium (C07.811). Funny that all those „collectors“ bought the PRX, which also has the C07.111 built in 😂
I would prefer facts and data from a timegrapher and time between replacement at service intervals to emotional indignation. If the beat error, vibration, and energy consumption were less for nylon over metal, and the Nylon escapement lasts 3 service intervals or 10 years, with identical ETA 2824 movements, the nylon escapement is product improvement. Manufacturers choosing this material should be transparent about it. Nylon should not be substituted if it degrades performance or reasonable endurance expectations.
I was going to buy a seastar with pw80, but I gave up and bought a king turtle(srpe03) from a boutique seller for half the price. I recently dropped my watch, it bounced off the ground twice, nothing happened to the watch, it's like a tank. I'm lucky, the calibration from the factory is very good, -1/+0.5 seconds per day for now.
Thank you for touching this “great strategy” of such respected brand! I found such plastic escapement many many years ago on one of Chinese “no name movement”. It was strange, cheap and monstrous decision towards the client, just to sell the watch and forgot anything…. And now we see this in watches there engraved on the oscillating weight - 1853! For what?! Does it means they find a decision of the ages?
Great video! I got into watches a couple years ago and at the time almost bought the Le Locle, and later did end up buying a Hamilton Khaki which also uses a Powermatic movement. I have heard that the plastic components are not found in Hamilton but I’ve never really looked into it. Either way very interesting.
Is it very different than the plastic parts in the 7750 to reduce friction and lubrication? Another question: can the escape wheel and pallet fork be swapped for the ones in the other iterations of the movement with 25 jewels? Another question: what is the lifespan of the parts-do they wear out or are they spec’d to last based on the forces they’re exposed to. The idea is that Tissot made plastic movements before they were part of Swatch and ETA has used these parts (polymer pallet fork and escape wheel) in the Swatch irony. They seem to keep working. Is it to save money or save on service requirements? How long do the parts last? The consumer ultimately has a strong influence since many for example think 28800 indicates finer whereas 21600 is inferior. What about haute horologerie where low beat is more the norm. Another common misinformation is that one can’t adjust the timekeeping as it’s adjusted with laser at the factory. BS. Carl pointed out the inertial weights and the free sprung balance are usually found on high end watches like Patek and Rolex. If it was cost saving why would they include the free sprung balance?
I bought same watch year ago, later realizing that it has plastic escapement. Regret it immediately. Plus some watch makers said that it can't be regulated, some say it can be regulated but it is very difficult. So can it be regulated and fully serviced? Thank you. Glad I've found your channel.
I agree. Disappointing that the well marketed PRX is equipped with C07.111. I think the Powermatic 80 is a very good movement, but the C07.811, which does not have the plastic parts. Amazing that the Gentleman is in the shadows especially compared to the PRX, has no huge price gap between.
I thought about your request for our comments AND This is the 21st century and methods and materials improve with time. The new parts are silicon which are lighter/non rustable/less expensive and allow for an 80 hr running cycle and should be more accurate unfortunately the cannot be black polished or pearlaged . I was in the the instrument / control industry for 35 years and we old timers ran down the new digital controls that were not built as nice as the old hand built equipment but they were more accurate/cheaper/and more durable and programable. TIME CHANGES. we should TO!🤩
First time seeing a plastic in 2824. The escapement is an important part of the movement. It always has been made of fancy ruby coloured stones and steel. Hope that wouldn't be the case with 2892 movement.
Some plastics, such as PEEK, can have excellent physical properties but I doubt they went down that road as they are more expensive weight-for-weight than metal
This guy dosn't care if the composite used is a better choice, or if it helped make Tissot able to make other parts of the watch better on the price point, he just wants to cry about how "plastic bad".
Well it looks like a servicing may be half of the cost of my divers and Prx with this movement. Based on your findings, i may not service them when due. I will wear them less, however. It's disappointing to see and hear what you have found. I would not have bought had i had this info prior. Thank you for a great vid. Regards, Chris
Hello, I am thinking of buying a Tissot chronograph with a C02.211 which has a plastic pallet form and escapement wheel. Provided it is cared for appropriately, do you think it is worth it?
I was aware of this but good to see it 'in the plastic'! This must be a Swatch Group corporate decision I think. Personally I would rather have a metal escapement and shorter power reserve but it is not a deal breaker at this price point and unlikely to cause many issues. Plastic parts are replacing metal in most things now to save cost, weight etc., all out of sight and out of mind. These watches are not cheap as you say but still relatively affordable and as such some corners will be cut. How are slightly more expensive brands like Hamilton and much more expensive brands like Rado which also use this movement explaining themselves?
What’s your thought on the Le Locle’s 3 bar water resistance rating? It’s my understanding restating that I shouldn’t swim in my Le Locle, but I’ve recently seen some info saying that watch makers may dismiss that and say it’s no big deal to swim in it.
Oh, I don't know. Modern plastics have a lot of advantages over metals. They don't rust or corrode. They are resistant to impact and wear. I have a Tissot Chronograph with a C01.211 movement with the plastic escapement and it runs as well, if not better than traditional escapements. Moebius TH7-SC is recommend for lubricating plastic parts.
I put my hand up saying I stand with you on this one. Most folk commenting here seem to have no knowledge of what recent plastics are and seem to think everything plastic is the same plastic that clear bags are made from. Not so, the materials field has come a long way in recent years and perhaps "plastic" is not a good name for these parts, it's about as accurate as "stuff". Yes, Swatch Group are doing this for cost reasons and yes I'm sure the Holy Trinity shuddered themselves to death when they first saw Seiko finishing (lack thereof actually). Don't trash the new things until you FULLY understand them. plastic != cheap crap.
Boo... It's not about the durability of plastics and most of us know it. It's about pride and workmanship. I don't believe you'll ever hear anyone say with pride, "and look, it's made from plastic". It's cheap and degrading.
@@frankander1 All of the Powermatic 80 movements are built entirely by machines. That is how they maintain consistent level of quality and performance. They have eliminated the inaccuracy that can be introduced by human intervention while also reducing he overall cost of a movement. That is how you get $10,000.00 watch accuracy in a sub $1,000.00 watch. The introduction of innovative materials is just part of the advancement. They are not luxury collectible hand built watches and should not be compared to them. They are, however, very good time pieces for the dollar spent.
Automatic 'Powermatic 80' movement with central seconds and day and date indicators. Within the Powermatic movement family, there are - so far - three different levels; C07.1XX; these have a synthetic escapement. C07.6XX; these have a regular escapement. C07.8XX; these have a silicon balance spring.
Look, the thing is - this doesn’t save particularly much money, they have to have a reason for it. Presumably it’s not accuracy, except perhaps in magnetized environments, maybe it’s longevity? It’s entirely possible for plastic on plastic contact to last longer than jewel on metal. Nothing else about the movement seems different from the traditional versions. If it was actually cost optimized it would look *very* different.
The synthetic parts have less friction, are lighter and contribute to the longer power reserve. I agree that they are probably not much if any cheaper to produce. It allows them to use a thinner and longer spring in the barrel to get longer reserve. The reduced beat rate also contributes to the longer power reserve. Some don't like the slower beat rate but most old quality watches used the same slower beat rate. Higher beat rates give a smoother second hand sweep and may contribute to higher accuracy but they also will wear faster and have reduced reserve time.
Modern engineering plastics can be extremely durable when correctly specified and of course are non magnetic and can be self lubricating (though not, I believe in this instance). Time will tell but this could indeed be a modern breakthrough. As a materials engineer I am not against the use of plastics when used in appropriate applications.
EDIT: This post only applies in metal-to-metal situations of an escapement-wheel-pallet-fork system. The watch-maker kindly informed me that higher end watches have ruby-tipped pallet forks, which renders my argument somewhat moot, but the information below still applies for metal-to-metal. (repeat; NOT metal-to-ruby.) Beste horlogemaker, ik respecteer uw mechanische kennis en vaardigheid. Maar gelieve neemt u het volgende materiaalkundige in acht; Metal is infamous for developing grooves when repeatedly sliding against the same surfaces over and over (Called "fretting"; go ask any machinist). Affecting moment-arm, in this case. Moment-arm affects swing-time. Also drag. A grooved surface of equal width and breadth has more surface area than a flat surface, and since the grooves on the involved parts become each other's complement, the drag increases even more. Affecting swing-time also. So TWO effects that affect swing-time, highly associated with metal-to-metal sliding wear. Reduced by using a plastic; Why are Kevlar or Dyneema or Polystone M Green (all plastics) regarded as high-tech, excellent material for their application, CERTAINLY better at sliding-wear-resistance than metal, but somehow you are IMMEDIATELY disappointed in their choice of material? I urge you to re-assess. Material science IS high-tech. Did you ask Tissot WHY they chose a plastic for this part? Not all plastics are the same. Keep asking why and never stop learning! btw, any mechanical watch's daily precision is mainly determined by the tuning of the flywheel. The most wear occurs where metals slide. Gears are designed to slide as little as possible. The part where the most sliding occurs is at the escapement, as it is not really a gear (the toothed wheel has nowhere near an epicycloid shape). If any of the above is unfamiliar to you, you are not certified to posit that plastic is (always) inferior. You aren't thinking like a material scientist. You're rusted in place (pun intended). Break free! The plastic is used in the most sensible place. I actually like Tissot more now, since I can tell they're not afraid to face unfounded metal elitism. p.s. If you simply like the idea of using archaic materials for whatever reason, please do continue to enjoy you full-metal watches. I enjoy using wood in many applications, even though they make no engineering sense. They make our hearts beat at the thought of their properties, regardless of the application. But my thought when the escapement turned out to be some plastic (as yet unidentified) was, "Brilliant! They solved a likely problem concerning longevity!". Groetjes uit Utrecht, Zeb
Nope, metal is definitely not infamous in an escape wheel and ruby not in a pallet fork. In other applications you might be right, but not in an escapement.
@@ChronoglideWatchmaking Thankyou for your reply. I just looked up "pallet fork ruby" on an image search. Wow, I didn't know they used ruby on their ends! That soothes my frustration with your quickness to judge the plastic; though I am unfamiliar with ruby-to-metal wear characteristics, it does seem like the metal-to-metal wear is out of the question. I mentioned metal-to-metal contact itself is infamous for groove-formation, not the special case of "in the escapement". I clarified that by denoting it as a "likely problem in longevity", not some definite measured effect in escapements. One would have to measure ancient watches for the effect, IF! the pallet fork is also made of metal. All this was in the obliviousness as to whether the touching/sliding surface of the pallet fork was even metal to begin with. My apologies. Thankyou for this new knowledge and goedenavond! (Alles in het engels geschreven voor de internationale kijkers en lezers) For anyone still interested; the wear I spoke of has its own name, in English it's "fretting".
By the way, the "ruby" bearings and pallet forks used in modern watches are not actual rubies. They are man made cultured items so in a sense even those are synthetic materials just like the "plastic" pallet forks and escapement wheels used in the C07.111 movements. My Tissot watch with "plastic" parts has been keeping better time than required by COSC for several years now.
thanks for this wonderful insight. It's incredible how managers risk destroying a company taking such stupid decisions. I hope you'll expose more of them.
![[EN] The TISSOT Powermatic 80 movement](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/hHGi3xt1PAQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Finally, someone who is not gushing about the Tissot Powermatic 80 movement.
Thank you so much for your honesty.
The watchmakers I watch don’t gush about, paid reviewers do
@@richplant2205 when will people realise that youtubers aren't reviewers, they're an extension of a company's marketing department?
There's a few versions of the powermatic 80, the Tissot Gentleman version has no plastic parts.
The general consensus about the movement is negetive only. I got 2 tissot watches and both are quartz. Tissot is basically a quarts watch company, if you go for their quartz varients you will be very happy for the value they provide. The fit and finish are usually two price bracket higher than what they sell for.
Just never get their automatic watches.
get the older ones with the eta.
Made a nice change from the usual watch content, wish there were more channels exposing this kind of cost cutting.
You are absolutely right. The watch industry is no better than others. Minimising input while maximising revenue. All wrapped up in a few warm words.
Potential Tissot customer...lost.😮
Wow!!!!!
@@ediri8354 Or buy a 25 jewel version, like the Gentleman. It has a normal escapement but a silicon.based hairspring - if thats not too plastic-like for you :-)
@@sjurgabrielstill there is no regulator eventually you need to change your balance module and thats nonsense.
Just don't buy the watches with the 23-jewels, High-Tech-Escapement C07111 movement. It's an entry-level movement for their cheaper mechanical watches. They have a higher-grade version of the movement in their more expensive pieces.
Plastic escape wheel, plastic pallet fork, plastic durability.... Personally, I think Tissot should use wood instead of plastic, which would be more environmentally friendly, and in addition, the watch would generate a nice supply of very fine sawdust to mop up any surplus moebius left hanging around the escapement.
They did make a wooden watch once. In the 1970s. A friend had one and although rather novel didn't last long.
Ok but how is wood from chopped trees eco friendly???
Bio ceramic
This is a very ignorant comment in sorry. Those plastic parts are derlin which is very strong and used in many industries and heavy equipment. Just as plastic and rubber make a gshock more resistant than any steel watch, plastic can perform other functions just as good or better than metal. The reason you don’t like it is because when you were growing up you were told plastic was cheap and bad. But in fact there’s no reason why plastic couldn’t do the function properly
@@enriquesb1528 I agree, and many of these plastic parts are self-lubricating, which makes them last longer between servicing.
If you compare the plastic escapement of the Swatch 2840 - used in the pre-Sistem 51 - you will find exactly this pallet fork and escapement wheel. It isn't even new, it is old... And the major joke: The pallet fork needs lubrication, a special Moebius grease.
Exactly. I'm no expert on watches in general, but people shouldn't be too indignant about a plastic escapement because there is a genuine reason for it. Plastic, or more likely, nylon, is a better shock absorber and therefore helps with vibration, which is precisely why it's the escapement and not so much other parts that is made of the offending material.
Don't believe me? Go kick the side of your car and see what happens. well preferably don't as it will most likely leave a big dent. Now go kick the side of your refuse bin with the same force. What happens? No dent. So I know people will have a hard time accepting this, but it's actually an improvement. You won't find it in high end watches of course, because people don't expect it and manufacturers know what their response will be but they would use it if they could.
This Le Locle is actually a really nice watch by the way if you can accept it for what it is. I picked one up for under £400 in the January sales from a local jeweller, very happy with it and it definitely looks like it cost a lot more.
@@severnsea : plastic is flexible and VERY bad at resisting friction, which is exactly the opposite of you want for the escapement. Also, plastics hardens and becomes brittle. It also shrinks. In something made with incredibly small tolerances, this is just a very bad idea. But in all reality, these watches are exactly like Seiko 5, you buy it, wear it for a few years until it starts slowing down, throw it in a drawer and buy something else....and Swatch group knows that. They want you to buy new watches, not service them.
@@keesketsers5866 bs. Anyone with half a brain cell will replace the movement in a Seiko 5, NH35/36s are so cheap there's literally no reason not to do it, for 30 euros the watch is good for another 15 years.
Tissot is Swatch's lowest tier brand. Boomers get upset about what they think is plastic. It does its job well. Anyway, a few steps up the Swatch ladder to Certina and they don't use this "plastic" part. I wonder what this guy thinks if the "plastic" part in the Omega Speedmaster movement 😂
Swatch is Swatch's lowest tier brand.
There's several versions os the Powematico 80 movements and the plastic component is not present in all of them, such in the Ballade Cosc and Seastar.
I would assume that the Powermatic 80 Longines don’t have the plastic parts either ?
You sure the seastar doesn't have that plastic part? Because I have one and maybe it has plastic pallet fork in it too.
@@intisarmuhtadee1117 When it says 23 jewels it hast the plastic parts, 25 jewels doesn't have the plastic parts
Exactly! We're missing half the story!
C071** plastic ,C076** metal, C078** Metal ( you can see this on your movment )
I have this watch in its original form, before the Powermatic 80. It keeps time better than my CHR Ward chronometer which was over double the price, as does my other Tissot (T Sport from 2010).
Tissot are excellent watches - accurate and great value for money.
that was before Swatch Group bought it?
In many areas of engineering and manufacturing, "engineered plastics" are the right choice. This refers to plastics that are made with certain characteristics to high standards. They have known properties and pass rigorous testing. I don't know if that is the quality level of the material for these watch parts. In any case, I am a bit of a traditionalist about mechanical watches and feel these should be made from stainless steel or brass regardless of the plastics that are available. Keep in mind though that the use of plastics for some parts _may_ be a well-considered, engineering decision.
agree with this comment
he doesn't consider or explain anything. he just says: look, plastic! as if that was supposed to mean anything. he's offended spiritually, not technically - seems a bit ignorant.
I believe the plastic has some amazing characteristics such as high hardness and low friction, i don't think it's a bad aspect, new materials are part of any engineer life. We need to see how it goes on the field. So far i think Tissot is doing pretty well if you consider the amount of PRX out there.
When you buy a watch which claims to have "high tech elements", you expect that to include jewels at the high friction points. There is no plastic, no matter how fancy shmansy it may be that is more effective, more advanced, more "high tech" or more desireable than rubies.
@@schell0118 But jewels are lower tech than modern plastics. I immediately thought of a non-traditional material when the escapement was described as "high-tech". Plastic was an option. Some plastics are literally the least-wearing or strongest-per-diameter materials known to mankind.
@@zbnmth I agree. Unfortunately it is only a plus to those who approach these issues from an engineering aspect. Emotionally, to most people, it is plastic. I get both sides of the argument.
@@ddo7802 Same! The idea of a ruby part near your wrist is romantic. Geology and stuff.
Absolutely, especially if you consider that ETA builds movements with that plastic escapement since 1991! So they got a little bit over 30 years of experience with that.
The Tissot Gentleman use the C07.811 escapement with a silicone hairspring, but a traditional escapement, if a buyer feels "plastic" has nothing to do in an escapement, but want a Tissot with 80 h power reserve.
The 23 jewel version of Powermatic 80 has plastic escapement (but a metallic hairspring). The 25 jewel version has mettalic escapement with the two extra jewels located at the fork, but a silcon-based hairspring.
Thanks for pointing this out. Looking at some Tissots, will stick to the 25 jewel versions.
ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING. I have had some Tissots with good results. Currently still have the NON-Powermatic Visodate with less power reserve but more smoothness regarding the second hand. I presume Tissot will explain away the plastic escapement as a weight-saving measure as well as a means to keep the cost to the consumer down. At least Hamilton spelled backwards is Notlimah which has no negative connotation.
Hamilton use the same ETA based movement, but I have to say mine runs 0-+1+seconds a day so a tiny piece of plastic doesn't bother me as long as the watch runs accuracy.,... which it does, they say it's for magnetic reasons which is fare enough
I have this watch. It works great, lovely piece. Plastic: Does it matter if a) it works well, and b) it has durability, c) it reduces wear? But yeah, your rage is palpable.
Yes it is good for the time of warranty.
That's major COPE. Just admit it's 🚮🚮🚮🚮
precisely.
@@rosomak8244why must you lie?
I have one 3-year-old seastar 2000 and 5-year-old seastar 1000, the difference is 3-4 secs/MONTH. Secondly, this is a serviceable model, it is not difficult to change any gears. 🤡
@@80for80 What cope? He asked the question if the plastic part makes a difference in your day-to-day life. He didnt even disagree with him.
A commenter on one of the reviews posted the below previously. I had understood the plastic parts were one of the features of the specific movement.
The rate is adjustable by adjusting the eccentric screw as it's a free sprung balance.
The plastic part is a Nivachron hairspring that was co-developed with swatch group and APRP, with that it made the watch anti-magnetic, and pallet fork with the escape wheel made out of the composite, it createsless friction and less impact. You know good things for a hairspring.
C07 movements are highly serviceable, so it's not just throwaway movement, they use special lubricant compared to the common swiss lever 9415 oil which if other watchmaker out there have the proper lubricant they could fix this watch too. They exchange the movement so the turn around time of servicing is faster while the old movement is sent to Switzerland to be serviced.
Thank you for being honest as a professional in watchmaking.. because not everybody know about that "plastic" thing, and the advertising obviously not mentioning that thing very clear.. so, if we're not a watch enthusiast, maybe we didn't even notice about that problem in long term usage.
That's also the reason I choose the green Tissot PRX 40mm in quartz version.. because for the price it's ask, I think it's worth the value.
How about you get the Tissot Gentleman Silicium? It has the ETA.C07.811 which has synthetic escapement.
Hello Kalle, wonderful video. Big fan of your work, Christiaan Huygens would be proud!
I sent you an urgent email, forgive me for pestering you about it here, but please let me know your thoughts as, well, time is of the essence.
Thanks again and keep up the great work.
Best regards,
TGV
Look who's here!
It’s well known that the C07.111 has a plastic escapement. C07.6xx version has a regular escapement. C07.8xx version has a regular escapement plus a silicon balance spring. I agree, plastic pallet fork and escape wheel has no place in a Swiss movement. C07.1xx movements are considered disposable- the movement typically costs less than a service. All the auto Tissot PRX line has the plastic escapement. The Gentleman line has the regular escapement. I’m somewhat surprised to learn the plastic escapement (C07.1xx) is in the Le Locle line which is Tissot’s biggest seller worldwide. I’m not a fan of the line, which costs basically the same as the Gentleman. I guess the takeaway is be suspicious of a modified/updated 2824 ETA movement with 23 jewels lol (they are here to stay)
Thank you for details. This means my Gentleman with 25 jewels and C08711 has a regular escapement, for what it´s worth. I´m very happy with how it runs anyway.
Every so often Amazon drops the price of the Powematic 80 Gentleman watch to $425. Right now they have the blue dial version for $425. At least with the Tissot Gentlemen watch you get the regular escapement and not a plastic one like in the PRX. Of course there are still other minor problems like people complaining about the bracket having sharp edges.
is this a new thing? I wonder if my old LeLocle (not powermatic - T41.1.423.33) has this plastic thingy or not
In my Atlantic seacrest is regular and has 2824-2 too but its the 25 jewell option
Man even the Seiko 7S26 which has no hand winding/hacking has a jeweled pallet fork. Even the Miyota 8200a has a jeweled pallet fork. What even is this garbage.
I have a PR100 Powermatic 80 with plastic escapement. I have had it for 2 years as my daily driver and currently runs at +2 sec/day. The most accurate watch I have owned. Yeah, same accuracy as an coaxial METAS Omega.
Wow really would not expect plastic from Tissot!! I’m almost as peeved as you Kalle 🤣 almost lol thanks for the vid.
Yes, that's the problem with the 23 jewel powermatic 80.
Although the plastic part should last long and be durable.
The 25 jewel version in Hamilton and mido doesn't have the plastic parts if your interested in those instead.
The Swatch Group is killing it, literally. ‘Swiss Made’ has become a mockery, especially for entry-level watches!
Swiss made means nothing to me.
there is "Honk Kong" written on the inside of the case cap on quartz version :) Sometimes it is hidden with black rubber glued on it.
@@TomasWatchReviews There isn't a quartz version of this watch.
Isn't the rule something like 60% of the value has to be Swiss made? Better than it was, it used to be 50% until a few years ago. To be honest it's not like it was a century ago, the rest of the world has caught up and a watch doesn't have to be Swiss to be a good watch. I know the purists won't agree but, hey, nobody cares what watch you wear anyway. Most people these days wouldn't know one brand from another.
@@TomasWatchReviews Which watch are you referring to?
There’s a reason why Tissot spelled backwards is “Toss it”. They’ve been making bad decisions. I’ve seen it with the Swissmatic… a literal unserviceable movement because it’s glued together (no screws). What the actual hell.
If not mistaking: the Swissmatic is based on the System 51 (which was mfgr. for Swatch), incredibly the watches which they put the El-cheapo movements inside really look good (the old saying: if it’s too good to be true, it ain’t), the difference in a quality movement are very small money wise. ETA needs better administrators to survive their reputation of quality products.😢
Tissot is part of swatch group as well as certina,hamilton etc. And they don t make their own decisions. If swatch group decides that c07.111 will be the new standard, it will be the new standard
I learned this a while ago and it completely blew me away! From one grumpy old man to another, it is just another step backward for them. We see again the slow and painful demise of a once great watchmaker. Excellent video my friend, people need to know what they are buying.
Not to mention that you can't regulate any of these movements they're putting into their entry level watches.
@@DISK2000 It is designed to use 5-10 years, then toss it and buy again. No, thanks i just buy a similar seiko, orient or citizen automatic, with better economic value (I do not comment on resale value.)
The plastic parts (escape wheel & pallet fork) only apply to the Tissot PRX Powermatic 80 watch, which carries a C07.111 movement (23 juwels). The new Tissot Gentlemen Powermatic 80 watch has a C07.811 movement with all metal parts, a silicon balance spring and 25 juwels.
I believe you are correct, Sir. This is why I got myself a Gentleman. I believe the C07.111 is also in a number of other Tissot and Swatch group models though. LeLocle has it too I think
I just panicked thinking I had bought a 'plastic' watch 😒so I got it under the microscope... thankfully, it turns out that you are correct and the Gentleman is a different movement number!... Phew ☺
I agree i have a 25 jewels powermatic 80 and all is well with the full metal parts plus silicon is used in many higher ETA calibre, so be careful only with the 23 jewels IMO
Wow. As a new watch enthusiast on a serious budget Tissot is a brand that is hyped up for folks in my price range. I appreciate your honesty and giving everyone an honest assessment as a professional watch maker. Your video was easy to follow and humorous. Keep up the great work and I'll be sure to keep up with your content! Thanks
I'm curious if the impulse jewel is plastic as well. Otherwise the ruby might slowly chew away at the pallet fork? Some plastics have very good abrasion qualities though. Also curious about the long term stability of the plastic it self.
It has 2 less jewels than the normal 25. Guess where those go...
Was the escape wheel plastic as well?
@@dale4034 Yes
The sellita equivalent movement, sw200 has 26 jewel. Where does that extra jewel go?
Question: can you simply replace the existing plastic pallet fork with a traditional jewel tipped one? Or is it light enough as plastic that a traditional one would be too heavy and unbalanced?
I love objective channels like this, dissecting popular brands’ flagships and gave honest opinion about them. Really well-made video.
I think the polymer parts and the modified mainspring coupled with the lower beat rate to 21,600 is how they were able to push out to 80 hours in the Powermatic 80 movement, or at least I think that's what happened here.
Ive been wearing a prx pm80 since 2021 almost daily, and i have not had any issues with reliability or accuracy so far. Granted its nothing like my GS speingdrive, but imo my prx is a tough beater of a time piece, i really enjoy it.
Good. This bloke is an arrogant so and so. Like so many other watch makers unfortunately.
Two years is far too short a period to draw any conclusions. Most of my watches are over fifty year old. I suspect the life of those plastic components is around five years, based on experience.
plastic = lighter parts = longer power reserve
and much much quicker wear
Wow! Thanks for the heads up. It's unbelievable, yet, believable.
What is unbelievable? None of this is a secret. Did you expect the $800 watch to have a $500 movement in it?
That's why I only collect vintage mechanical watches and it is a pleasure seeing you repair them
Just a thought on this subject. I have two Omega Speedmasters. One is the broad arrow version and the other is what we often refer to as the Hesalilte sandwich. The broad arrow version has a Delrin brake and the sandwich has a metal one, presumably because you can see it. The reason I was told is because the Delrin version has better wear properties but then surely the brake in an Omega chronograph would get far less wear than an escapement. It still bothers me though when I think of a plastic part in my Speedmaster.
The older Speedmasters with Cal. 1045 / Lemania 5100 have a significant number of Delrin parts, but apparently selected with more care.
I hope this goes viral. Also if we don't buy their scrap then they will be forced to change.
Don’t believe their Swiss fairytales.
First of all, you look surprised by this. This should be common knowledge for a watchmaker.
Second, the pallet fork is not just "plastic": it is a synthetic material; but so are the rubies on a classic pallet fork. Why did they do this;? Well to make an affordable 80 hour power reserve watch. It is more affordable because placing the rubies on the pallet fork, is one of the only tasks that requires manual intervention and that is expensive.
As you may know, there is not just one Powermatic 80 movement. There are several. The ones with number C07.1xx, with the synthetic pallet fork, the C07.6xx with a classic pallet fork and the C07.8xx witjh a classic pallet fork and a silicium hairspring.
The synthetic pallet fork is not necessarily worse than the classic pallet fork. It all depends on the material that was used.
Thanks for this informative video! I just wish it could have been posted, and in my suggested videos before literally bought this exact watch a little over a year ago. It sucks that what I had thought was a nice watch, is actually a mere conveyance of a nice quality watch.
Thanks for explaining the the movement issues. Please can you explain how likely these parts are to fail? Do you think that Tissot expect these watches or movements to be disposable ie just replace the movement rather than repair it? Many thanks
When servicing, they replace the entire movement. This to me is like replacing the actial watch. There is no connection with a movement that is simply replaced at every service.
Any moderately priced mechanical could just have the movement replaced, including the Seiko 7s26, which he just made a video about speaking well of it.@@anandmorris
I don't see it as being a big deal. The watch will work for 5 years when it will need to be serviced. These parts can be replaced as part of the service, if needed.
@@anandmorris People keep repeating this without any evidence. These are just as serviceable as the regular 2824. Tissot maintenance procedure states that ANY MOVEMENT may be replaced OR repaired. This was introduced even before any of the Powermatic movement family.
@@anandmorris It all comes down to economics. Would you pay a shop $10,000.00 to meticulously rebuild your car engine or would you rather pay him $5,000.00 to install a brand new crate engine from the original manufacturer?
I appreciate the insight into these kind of practices. Without digging further, the movement and its finishing looked so nice (even in the display case back).
Is there any argument from a technical side for a plastic escapement, or is it just cost savings?
Questions: If you replaced those plastic parts with the traditional metal ones, would the watch run any better? You can test that yourself. Do you estimate that the plastic escapement will have a shorter or longer life than the traditional one? Why? If you could have a movement made of ANY metal or metals you choose, what metals would you choose, cost no object.
Objectively plastic should be more durable and lubricant free. Anyway I knew about this from the internet. There is the same movement with the metal part in the Gentlemen line if I'm not mistaken.
@@YehoshuaMenachem that's what I would have thought - lower friction coefficient on plastics should result in less wear. So maybe it's not such a bad thing that the pallet fork is plastic?
Also basically when you take the watch in for its periodic service, you’ll have to replace the pallet fork which probably only cost a few bucks. Not a big deal. There’s a reason why Tissots cost what they cost.
The Powermatic movements are built with quality parts but entirely by automated processes. No human labour for the actual construction and assembly. This keeps the costs down and increases consistency by minimizing the possibility of human error.
i knew about this but i feel conflicted. Personally i find le locle to be beautiful and i want it, but it had this issue.
Any way to avoid / alleviate / aftermarket upgrade it?
what automatic watch would you recommend instead? I was researching the tissot prx for a while... bummer
C'est dans l'air du temps, on produit à bas coût et on vend cher, c'est de l'argent facile et une vision à très court terme. Les chinois pendant ce temps progressent tous les jours... Mais je ne suis qu'un petit horloger de province sans grande expérience.
I have a seastar in for repair at the mo, the crown wont close and the rotor spins when you wind it after it has stopped. So see what happens when i get it back.
What are the specs of the plastic? Just because it is plastic doesn't mean it is bad. Are Magpul magazines bad because they eliminated the steel feed lips? Of course not. It is not as simple as "plastic bad!"
My Tissot Gentlemen with the Powermatic 80 is the most accurate mechanical watch I own from my testing, after wearing for 14 days I calculated it was only 0.86 seconds per day slow.
your Gentlemen does not have plastic parts. It has c80.811, which uses the traditional pallet fork and silicium hairspring
I'm planning to buy a tissot excelence 18k gold with ETA caliber 2892-A2 ND. Is this a good choice? Thanks in advance!
In a word, yes!
@richardmclean5913 thanks , already bought the watch. The winding rotor is a bit noisy otherwise a great watch.
I gifted my stepfather the exact same watch and serviced it last year. Thankfully for him and me it was the previous 'upgraded lol' version and has a true eta 2824-2 inside 👍🏽
High tech escapement 😂
Did you know it had been upgraded when you bought it? Or was it a happy surprise?
@@Revenant.Wristwatch I knew it had a 2482-2 inside prior to purchase (cannot go wrong with that movement) but I certainly didn't know that they had gone and done this on the new versions :(
Nice video! So, which you recommended like 'ok' auto-machine swiss and japan made? Thanks!
This is why I’m keeping my 1973 Tissot chronograph PR516 the new stuff is not so good
This is amazing, thank you for this video. The YT watch community has a lot of influencer that do seem to know a lot about watches but, I really think we need ACTUAL watchmakers taking the lead and breaking things down like this. I mean how would we as watch enthusiasts ever know about something like this? I’d never risk opening up a movement so my trust would be totally in the hands of the maker 😮
My understanding is that there are different grades of the powermatic movement with the metal parts 100% servicable. Also i really dont get why a diposable movement is that big a deal. If popping in a new one is cheaper than servicing by all means ill take the new movement.
This is true. As for the grade with the plastic escapement (delrin) this movement is also perfectly serviceable. It just has a plastic escapement. Truth is regardless of what grade or even if it was a 2824 old school movement, swatch group will just put a new movement in as it names more sense.
100% I would rather have a brand new movement rather than old worn out “serviced” parts
Hi, so is it silicon or plastic? Is there anyway to test it to be sure? This movement has been in use for a number of years now, how is the feedback from custoners?
Plastic. We never hear feedback from those who bought in the early days, 2013-2014. I don't think there's anything wrong with the movement. It's the idea that Swatch broke with tradition and just to save a very small amount of money.
@@robertbrandywine It's not just to save money. It actually works better when trying to get the longer power reserve. Requires less energy to stay consistent and accurate. That way they can use a longer and thinner main spring to get the 80hr reserve.
Sir, I have tissot visodate watch, everyday forward 3 minutes, I could not open the back case, do me a favour, how can I open it?
But it’s not plastic, it’s bio-ceramic you know 😅
I bought a PR100 on Jomashop for about 200USD + taxes and shipping to Europe. That Powermatic 80 version with the plastic fork. I have to say, I was very positively suprised by the quality of the watch for that price, it was far better than a Seiko 5 costing the same. Even with the exhibition case, the calibre looks decent, comparing to the Seiko 7S26. I dont mind having plastic parts for such a nice watch for that price. Also, the accuracy of watch is on the COSC level, there was even a series of PR100 for less then 250USD with the certificate - same as Tudor :D
In my opinion, Tissot and the Swatch is trying to do some real life testing or maybe experiments with the large amount of low-tier watches :-) I dont mind, for that price, it makes sense, on the other hand, I would not pay the full price for Powermatic 80 in PRX (like - 800 USD in Europe). Not speaking about that Sistem51 in the Swatchplain.
On the other hand, I was able to service my Seikos for very small amount of money, and I would doubt, if a standard service is even possible with the Plastomatic... But its still running well and I did not heard any actual complaints about the quality of plastick P80s, yet. Unlike for the infamous sistem51, which seems to be piece of garbage about even 1 year of usage...
This movement is part of a family of 3 movement Tissot is using. You have the C07.111, the C07.601 and the C07.811. The 111 comes with 23 jewels and the 'high tech escapement' without the 2 pallet fork jewels, hence 23. The 601 uses normal materials, the 811 has a silicon hairspring. I personally checked. I have the 811 version, on which, so far, I do not have any problems. I personally think that plastic parts in a watch are a no-no, however, there are a lot of Seikos using plastic stuff on places Seiko says improves the function of the watch. Whilst that might be the case, in this specific case, I have to agree with Kalle: This is bordering on pure fraud, is misleading, and by no means are these parts anywhere near 'high tech'. I have to say, I am glad I bought the part which is not containing the plastic, because all in all, and Kalle also mentions this, the movement itself based on the ETA 2824-2 is a solid movement
Yes, especially the .601 and .811 movements are perfectly nice automatics with 3+ days power reserve, _except_ that you can't buy parts from the manufacturer so you'd have to rely on donor movements. I'd prefer an SW200-1 -- or rather spend a bit more and get an SW300-1 (Sellita's ETA 2892-A2 clone). I'd gladly give up some power reserve to be more confident about maintaining the movement long term (w/o sending the watch to its maker & having the movement replaced). I don't like this idea of trashing a perfectly nice movement that just needs service.
Yes. My Powermatic says 25 jewels. And ‘silicon balance spring’ on the automatic movement plate. Gentleman line. Glad I avoided that PRX.
I’m subscribed to your channel but just saw this, what a surprise! Thanks for the revelation and education!
Sir...as an Aircraft Tech and engineer Ive noticed a huge lowering of quality from RR engines to airframe fitment (Doors falling off at 17K feet). Im retired now, my peers always wanted to do quality work to maintain Airworthiness but employees today are more interested in their tick tock then setting engine core bearing tolerances.
You are 100 percent right! This is also why I went for the Gentleman Powermatic 80 Silicium (C07.811). Funny that all those „collectors“ bought the PRX, which also has the C07.111 built in 😂
Silicon referral to the spring right? It doesn't have the plastic?
Is the ETA C26.111 that seems to be replacing the ETA 2671 in alot of ladies watches also have the same plastic parts? Can't find any info on it.
Can you tell us which powermatic 80 this is, as I understand it only some of the cheaper calibres use the plastic escapement.
This is the ETA C07.111. The movement found in the PRX for example.
I would prefer facts and data from a timegrapher and time between replacement at service intervals to emotional indignation. If the beat error, vibration, and energy consumption were less for nylon over metal, and the Nylon escapement lasts 3 service intervals or 10 years, with identical ETA 2824 movements, the nylon escapement is product improvement. Manufacturers choosing this material should be transparent about it. Nylon should not be substituted if it degrades performance or reasonable endurance expectations.
I put mine on a timegrapher today. +4 spd, amplitude 230, beat error 1.2 ms.
I was going to buy a seastar with pw80, but I gave up and bought a king turtle(srpe03) from a boutique seller for half the price. I recently dropped my watch, it bounced off the ground twice, nothing happened to the watch, it's like a tank. I'm lucky, the calibration from the factory is very good, -1/+0.5 seconds per day for now.
Thank you for touching this “great strategy” of such respected brand! I found such plastic escapement many many years ago on one of Chinese “no name movement”. It was strange, cheap and monstrous decision towards the client, just to sell the watch and forgot anything…. And now we see this in watches there engraved on the oscillating weight - 1853! For what?! Does it means they find a decision of the ages?
Is it possible to remove the plastic parts and replace them with metal parts?
If I want a bunch of plastic bits I'll buy a quartz
Bro does tissot gentleman powermatic 80 silicium have the same plastic? I just got one.
No, the silicium one is excellent. Enjoy!
Thank you Mister, for educating us.
Great video! I got into watches a couple years ago and at the time almost bought the Le Locle, and later did end up buying a Hamilton Khaki which also uses a Powermatic movement. I have heard that the plastic components are not found in Hamilton but I’ve never really looked into it. Either way very interesting.
Oh geez !!! 😮 plastic parts !!!!
What going on with Tissot it’s a shame !!
Thank you Kalle to show us this horrible things !!
Is it very different than the plastic parts in the 7750 to reduce friction and lubrication? Another question: can the escape wheel and pallet fork be swapped for the ones in the other iterations of the movement with 25 jewels? Another question: what is the lifespan of the parts-do they wear out or are they spec’d to last based on the forces they’re exposed to.
The idea is that Tissot made plastic movements before they were part of Swatch and ETA has used these parts (polymer pallet fork and escape wheel) in the Swatch irony. They seem to keep working. Is it to save money or save on service requirements? How long do the parts last?
The consumer ultimately has a strong influence since many for example think 28800 indicates finer whereas 21600 is inferior. What about haute horologerie where low beat is more the norm.
Another common misinformation is that one can’t adjust the timekeeping as it’s adjusted with laser at the factory. BS. Carl pointed out the inertial weights and the free sprung balance are usually found on high end watches like Patek and Rolex.
If it was cost saving why would they include the free sprung balance?
I bought same watch year ago, later realizing that it has plastic escapement. Regret it immediately. Plus some watch makers said that it can't be regulated, some say it can be regulated but it is very difficult. So can it be regulated and fully serviced? Thank you. Glad I've found your channel.
It can be regulated but it is more difficult. And yes it can be fully serviced.
You might just be the most important watch reviewer around, so I subscribed to your channel.
Yes it's sad but in England Tissot has prices that make one wonder why they are so cheap.
And you have shown us why !!
I agree. Disappointing that the well marketed PRX is equipped with C07.111. I think the Powermatic 80 is a very good movement, but the C07.811, which does not have the plastic parts. Amazing that the Gentleman is in the shadows especially compared to the PRX, has no huge price gap between.
I thought about your request for our comments AND This is the 21st century and methods and materials improve with time. The new parts are silicon which are lighter/non rustable/less expensive and allow for an 80 hr running cycle and should be more accurate unfortunately the cannot be black polished or pearlaged . I was in the the instrument / control industry for 35 years and we old timers ran down the new digital controls that were not built as nice as the old hand built equipment but they were more accurate/cheaper/and more durable and programable. TIME CHANGES. we should TO!🤩
First time seeing a plastic in 2824. The escapement is an important part of the movement. It always has been made of fancy ruby coloured stones and steel. Hope that wouldn't be the case with 2892 movement.
Some plastics, such as PEEK, can have excellent physical properties but I doubt they went down that road as they are more expensive weight-for-weight than metal
This guy dosn't care if the composite used is a better choice, or if it helped make Tissot able to make other parts of the watch better on the price point, he just wants to cry about how "plastic bad".
Well it looks like a servicing may be half of the cost of my divers and Prx with this movement. Based on your findings, i may not service them when due. I will wear them less, however. It's disappointing to see and hear what you have found. I would not have bought had i had this info prior.
Thank you for a great vid.
Regards, Chris
this watch and this colour are exactly what on my wrist right now lol.
With the high tech escapement. All parts plastic is there any lubrication?
Contains C07.111 - Automatic, synthetic polymer (plastic) parts
Hello, I am thinking of buying a Tissot chronograph with a C02.211 which has a plastic pallet form and escapement wheel. Provided it is cared for appropriately, do you think it is worth it?
I thought it was public knowledge that the powermatic 80 had a plastic escapement.
It is!
I have a Powermatic 80 Certina for 5 years already and the watch is like a TANK. Solid and accurate. IDK if the escapement is plastic or not.
If you could check Rado, Mido, and Certina. I hope they do not have that plastic part.
I was aware of this but good to see it 'in the plastic'! This must be a Swatch Group corporate decision I think. Personally I would rather have a metal escapement and shorter power reserve but it is not a deal breaker at this price point and unlikely to cause many issues. Plastic parts are replacing metal in most things now to save cost, weight etc., all out of sight and out of mind. These watches are not cheap as you say but still relatively affordable and as such some corners will be cut. How are slightly more expensive brands like Hamilton and much more expensive brands like Rado which also use this movement explaining themselves?
Thank you for bringing this to our attention.
You are a man of honour and integrity!
Kind thoughts from Denmark.
What’s your thought on the Le Locle’s 3 bar water resistance rating? It’s my understanding restating that I shouldn’t swim in my Le Locle, but I’ve recently seen some info saying that watch makers may dismiss that and say it’s no big deal to swim in it.
Oh, I don't know. Modern plastics have a lot of advantages over metals. They don't rust or corrode. They are resistant to impact and wear. I have a Tissot Chronograph with a C01.211 movement with the plastic escapement and it runs as well, if not better than traditional escapements. Moebius TH7-SC is recommend for lubricating plastic parts.
I put my hand up saying I stand with you on this one. Most folk commenting here seem to have no knowledge of what recent plastics are and seem to think everything plastic is the same plastic that clear bags are made from. Not so, the materials field has come a long way in recent years and perhaps "plastic" is not a good name for these parts, it's about as accurate as "stuff".
Yes, Swatch Group are doing this for cost reasons and yes I'm sure the Holy Trinity shuddered themselves to death when they first saw Seiko finishing (lack thereof actually). Don't trash the new things until you FULLY understand them.
plastic != cheap crap.
Boo... It's not about the durability of plastics and most of us know it. It's about pride and workmanship. I don't believe you'll ever hear anyone say with pride, "and look, it's made from plastic". It's cheap and degrading.
@@frankander1 All of the Powermatic 80 movements are built entirely by machines. That is how they maintain consistent level of quality and performance. They have eliminated the inaccuracy that can be introduced by human intervention while also reducing he overall cost of a movement. That is how you get $10,000.00 watch accuracy in a sub $1,000.00 watch. The introduction of innovative materials is just part of the advancement. They are not luxury collectible hand built watches and should not be compared to them. They are, however, very good time pieces for the dollar spent.
What would be the best watch to buy at the $800 US mark then?
Happy to found your channel.
Love the technical aspect of it.
Could you maybe do a review of a L688 movement from Longines?
Automatic 'Powermatic 80' movement with central seconds and day and date indicators.
Within the Powermatic movement family, there are - so far - three different levels;
C07.1XX; these have a synthetic escapement.
C07.6XX; these have a regular escapement.
C07.8XX; these have a silicon balance spring.
Look, the thing is - this doesn’t save particularly much money, they have to have a reason for it. Presumably it’s not accuracy, except perhaps in magnetized environments, maybe it’s longevity? It’s entirely possible for plastic on plastic contact to last longer than jewel on metal.
Nothing else about the movement seems different from the traditional versions. If it was actually cost optimized it would look *very* different.
The synthetic parts have less friction, are lighter and contribute to the longer power reserve. I agree that they are probably not much if any cheaper to produce. It allows them to use a thinner and longer spring in the barrel to get longer reserve. The reduced beat rate also contributes to the longer power reserve. Some don't like the slower beat rate but most old quality watches used the same slower beat rate. Higher beat rates give a smoother second hand sweep and may contribute to higher accuracy but they also will wear faster and have reduced reserve time.
Modern engineering plastics can be extremely durable when correctly specified and of course are non magnetic and can be self lubricating (though not, I believe in this instance). Time will tell but this could indeed be a modern breakthrough. As a materials engineer I am not against the use of plastics when used in appropriate applications.
EDIT: This post only applies in metal-to-metal situations of an escapement-wheel-pallet-fork system. The watch-maker kindly informed me that higher end watches have ruby-tipped pallet forks, which renders my argument somewhat moot, but the information below still applies for metal-to-metal. (repeat; NOT metal-to-ruby.)
Beste horlogemaker, ik respecteer uw mechanische kennis en vaardigheid. Maar gelieve neemt u het volgende materiaalkundige in acht;
Metal is infamous for developing grooves when repeatedly sliding against the same surfaces over and over (Called "fretting"; go ask any machinist). Affecting moment-arm, in this case. Moment-arm affects swing-time.
Also drag. A grooved surface of equal width and breadth has more surface area than a flat surface, and since the grooves on the involved parts become each other's complement, the drag increases even more. Affecting swing-time also.
So TWO effects that affect swing-time, highly associated with metal-to-metal sliding wear. Reduced by using a plastic;
Why are Kevlar or Dyneema or Polystone M Green (all plastics) regarded as high-tech, excellent material for their application, CERTAINLY better at sliding-wear-resistance than metal, but somehow you are IMMEDIATELY disappointed in their choice of material?
I urge you to re-assess. Material science IS high-tech. Did you ask Tissot WHY they chose a plastic for this part? Not all plastics are the same. Keep asking why and never stop learning!
btw, any mechanical watch's daily precision is mainly determined by the tuning of the flywheel. The most wear occurs where metals slide. Gears are designed to slide as little as possible. The part where the most sliding occurs is at the escapement, as it is not really a gear (the toothed wheel has nowhere near an epicycloid shape).
If any of the above is unfamiliar to you, you are not certified to posit that plastic is (always) inferior. You aren't thinking like a material scientist. You're rusted in place (pun intended). Break free!
The plastic is used in the most sensible place. I actually like Tissot more now, since I can tell they're not afraid to face unfounded metal elitism.
p.s.
If you simply like the idea of using archaic materials for whatever reason, please do continue to enjoy you full-metal watches. I enjoy using wood in many applications, even though they make no engineering sense. They make our hearts beat at the thought of their properties, regardless of the application.
But my thought when the escapement turned out to be some plastic (as yet unidentified) was, "Brilliant! They solved a likely problem concerning longevity!".
Groetjes uit Utrecht,
Zeb
Nope, metal is definitely not infamous in an escape wheel and ruby not in a pallet fork. In other applications you might be right, but not in an escapement.
@@ChronoglideWatchmaking Thankyou for your reply. I just looked up "pallet fork ruby" on an image search. Wow, I didn't know they used ruby on their ends! That soothes my frustration with your quickness to judge the plastic; though I am unfamiliar with ruby-to-metal wear characteristics, it does seem like the metal-to-metal wear is out of the question.
I mentioned metal-to-metal contact itself is infamous for groove-formation, not the special case of "in the escapement". I clarified that by denoting it as a "likely problem in longevity", not some definite measured effect in escapements. One would have to measure ancient watches for the effect, IF! the pallet fork is also made of metal. All this was in the obliviousness as to whether the touching/sliding surface of the pallet fork was even metal to begin with. My apologies.
Thankyou for this new knowledge and goedenavond! (Alles in het engels geschreven voor de internationale kijkers en lezers)
For anyone still interested; the wear I spoke of has its own name, in English it's "fretting".
By the way, the "ruby" bearings and pallet forks used in modern watches are not actual rubies. They are man made cultured items so in a sense even those are synthetic materials just like the "plastic" pallet forks and escapement wheels used in the C07.111 movements. My Tissot watch with "plastic" parts has been keeping better time than required by COSC for several years now.
sold my prx this morning after watching this lastnight. got a 2nd hand seiko 5 with the 7s26 movement today 🚀
Let's hope they don't come up with the idea of building a plastic coaxial escapement. George Daniels, had turned in his grave. RIP.
Thank you. I was honestly thinking about buying a Tissot. Not now.
thanks for this wonderful insight. It's incredible how managers risk destroying a company taking such stupid decisions. I hope you'll expose more of them.