My favorite theory is that Ramsay wrote a letter, but not the one that Jon actually received. Bowen Marsh and his cadre were becoming increasingly pissed off at Jon for his decisions regarding the Night's Watch, and were looking for an excuse to stage a coup. Ramsay wrote a letter to Jon containing MOST of what was said in the pink letter, but it was intercepted by Bowen Marsh and re-written with new details and more inflammatory language in a bid to get Jon to do exactly what he did. This explains why the pink wax was smeared instead of a nice button, why the letter was in the wrong handwriting and in maester's ink, and why there were details that only Ramsay could have known, and also details Ramsay could not possibly have known. It explains why Clydas was terrified of giving the letter to Jon. Marsh probably made him write the doctored letter. Plus, it just seems in GRRM's style to have a clever explanation to a mystery like that.
@@finhese This is the best theory amongst all of the ones that are out there. Every other theory has some kind of flaw in it. It's just too bad that we're never going to be able to know the truth.
I admit I did not think that Mel as a candidate for the letter writer, though she is the ONLY one who knows for sure about Mance NOT being burned, aside from John and Mance himself.
@@fal2218Melisandre does in fact possess magic, but she’s been trained in tricks to enhance people’s belief in it. She could possibly have seen Theon in the flames. Let’s not forget Thoros has resurrected Beric several times, Moqorro heals Victarion’s hand, and Beric revived the dead Catelyn Stark. So there is probably some ability to see visions in the flames, though not perfect.
A schizo theory of mine is that the letter comes from someone within the night's watch. They wanted to bait Jon into breaking his vows so they'd have an excuse to kill him. The guy delivering the letter was shaking because he knew he was now complicit in a conspiracy
@Poindexterous there was another comment saying Bowen Marsh received the letter and changed it a bit to get Jon to take the bait. So Ramsay did write the letter, Bowen Marsh added to it.
Ultimately I believe Lady Barbrey Dustin penned the letter, but Melisandre is my dark horse. For all the reasons you mentioned, and one you didn't- to precipitate the rebirth of Azor Ahai; something she believes is necessary to save mankind. When Mel says she "prays for a glimpse of Azor Ahai but R'hllor shows her only Snow", the 's' in "snow" is capitalized- implying she's referring to a person, ie Jon Snow, rather than the weather. It's possible she came to her senses and realized Jon is the savior rather than Stannis, and decided to act after seeing Jon transition from "man to wolf to man again" because that depiction showed him "coming back", so she know her resurrection ritual would be successful. Plus if she saves Jon, then how could he question his need of her anymore? Anyway, those are just my thoughts. Great video!
It's a good theory for Mel. Though I'm not sure what would make her change her mind on Stannis. I think eventually Mel will realize Jon is Azor Ahai, but it probably won't happen until it's revealed that his true parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna. I think Ramsey probably did just write the letter. Barbery Dustin doesn't know Jon. The night lamp theory is probably what's really going on. 7 days of battle!?! That's the part that really stands out for me. It would have been an hour of battle given the forces. Stannis is no fool and he was confident of victory in the Theon sample chapter. The Freys were lured onto the ice and once it started to break because of the catapults, the white harbor men kept them from retreating by taking them in rear. It's almost too perfect. This victory will be a massive and well needed morale boost to Stannis's army. After that they take Winterfell unawares, sending in there own men through the gates disguised as the Frey army. By the time Roose Bolton and Ramsey realize what's happening it'd have already happened. It's going to epic
@@KingSlayer_. Well, in my head, what makes her change her mind is realizing that R'hllor never shows her Stannis when she asks for glimpses of Azor Ahai; she only sees "Snow", meaning Jon Snow. That's what I meant by highlighting the importance of the 's' in snow being capitalized, because it changes the connotation of the vision/the passage explaining it. Something else that's noteworthy- the Pink Letter uses the phrase "false king" to reference Stannis. Melisandre is one of only two characters in the story to use that phrase in her speech (the other is Wyman Manderly). So it's another indication she could be the author. As it pertains to Lady Barbrey, she doesn't need to know Jon to have written the letter. For a variety of reasons, I think she wrote the letter on behalf of Lord Wyman and the other co-conspirators within Winterfell, and Rowan the spear wife (whom I believe is Rowan Umber, long-lost daughter of Crowfood Umber) was their source for intel about events and people at the Wall. In other words, because Barbrey's co-conspirator Wyman needs Jon at Winterfell, she'll write the letter to Jon since Wyman can't. Wyman is watched by Roose and doesn't trust his maester; Barbrey has been given free reign in Winterfell because Roose needs her alliance, so he does things to keep her "happy". She'd need that "freedom" to access the ravens undisturbed. Also, Barbrey writes her own letters so she wouldn't need to make end-runs around a maester she can't trust to do it. Lastly, I believe she sent the letter during Lord Wyman's skirmish with the Freys after Little Walder's body was found. She was conspicuously absent from the Great Hall at that time, so I'm betting that whole thing was a diversion so she could send the letter undetected. The timing lines up perfectly with Jon receiving the letter several chapters later.
@@ashleyofnaath unless she wrote the word Snow out, and the capitalized version was an in-world quote, then I wouldn't assume that. Although I admit it's hard to think of a reason it would be capitalized by Martin otherwise, except as a red herring.
That letter made legitimate threats to the Night’s Watch. Taking care of that threat is not breaking vows. That said. I think the anti-Jon Night’s Watch wrote the letter and Clyde knew this or was even forced to write it, which is why he was terrified. The smeared wax means it was open and resealed as best as possible. A real letter came in and was opened and manipulated to get Jon to go south.
One interesting candidate I've seen rarely mentioned is Lady Dustin, she at one point I think had an opened letter and Bolton seal in the snow. Her being with Theon and him telling her she is still a contender against Roose could make her write it, but I don't see any reason why she would
@@TheIndieKitten The only way I can see her knowing about that is if Mance as Abel was captured and tortured, or one of his spear wives if they know. The only problem with this is that this can be said also for Ramsey being the author
Her and mance are working together. Along with the knowledge of what the umbers and manderlys are doing. Wyman didn't have a singer and that's how mance got in.
May be why she ultimately decides to resurrect him. If it was her direct deceitful actions that got Jon killed then she might've been required to by her religious beliefs and practices. It wasn't her intention to cost his life but she was responsible. Knowing that would make her wanna balance all that out somehow.
Many of mely's powers are unknown to even herself, maybye she gives him the same fire funeral that the lighthing lord recived and resurrects by accident.
I don't think we have enough information to know who wrote it yet. It's chronologically the latest chapter we have, which means it could be motivated by things we haven't seen happen yet. Not to mention characters could have the knowledge to write it who don't have that knowledge "yet". The inclusion of Reek is confusing for everyone. As I just said in another comment, not only has Jon never heard of Reek, but all the potential writers would know that. There are basically enough details included to rule out all of them, until we get more information.
One thing that I havent yet heard mentioned is that it might have been someone from the watch. One thing that is very obvious to me is that they wanted to kill him before the letter (there are many proofs including ghosts behaviour or that the wun-wun incident seems staged) so maybe they decided to write the letter to convince everyone else in the nights watch that jon is a deserter. Because jons reaction to it would be obvious to everyone who knows him. I feel like the person who wrote it had to know that jon would be in danger. I still think that Mance is more likely but it is possible...
I like this theory. I’ve *only just* finished ADWD a couple of weeks ago, so it’s fresh in my mind, and my own theorising is recent. I like this one, except for one line: ‘and I want my Reek’. Who knew about Reek outside the Bolton coterie? Yes, Melisandre could pooossssibly have magicked that information to herself, but from what we know, her messages come from deciphering images in the flames, not names and not something as unexpected and complex as ‘your foster brother, who as far as you know killed your brothers and burnt your home down, was being kept as a plaything by this PoS, but he escaped’. And even if she had somehow found that out…in the letter it just says ‘Reek’. Why would Jon care or even know it was Theon, if it was part of a means to get him down to winterfell? I don’t have any solid theories myself, though, so this is more than I’ve come up with. My initial thought was it was someone he was beefing with within castle black, who wanted reason to get stabby on Jon…however the Reek thing, and also knowledge that Jeyne had escaped put an end to that line of enquiry. Who also knows they’ve escaped and seems to be an ally to The North though? The hooded man?
The idea is that Mel sent Mance with instructions to write the letter, she didn’t write it herself. That’s why there’s the wildling lingo and all the Mance talk. Mance knows Reek - him and the spearwives have been interacting with him in disguise and ferreting out gossip and rumours from the people in Winterfell. He also knows that Theon escaped with fake Arya. So it’s possible that Mance is adding all of this as realistic flavour to make the letter convincing, or more likely the letter is also supposed to serve as a way of communicating to Melisandre some important information he’s learned.
@@Sheija Oh yeah, I’d forgotten that the spearwives had made it inside and to Reek already. Menopause is a hell of a drug. Ok that’s something for me to ruminate on now
@@RoxanneLaWinSTABBY This is the most difficult detail for me too. Jon's never even heard of Reek. Not only would Jon not know who that was, but all the potential writers would know that. It's a weird inclusion for any of them. That's why I still say we don't have enough information to know who wrote it.
@@JervisGermane I think the why of it might be of less importance. Before we ask why, who needs an answer. At this point, the only ones who potentially have ALL the information contained in the letter is Mance. Sure he or the spear wives might have broken under torture and revealed the information, but there isn't much reason for him to be that detailed about Mance in the letter. From his standpoint, "Arya" would be Jon's greatest motivation to come south, not Mance. If the writer really believed "Arya" was in Jon's custody, they'd know he'd have LESS reason to impulsively ride south. If Ramsay wrote it and believed that, then the jig was up. Jon could send ravens to expose the lie. There's also the meta question is why would George spoil so much in advance? That's the question if Ramsay were the author.
I agree, though Mel might have ordered him to do so. Either that or this is his scheme to break free of her, possibly even in the hope the wildlings will now mutiny and free his family
Great vid as always IDG , look forward to more and more of these redone versions of previous videos of yours. And i do agree, surely Mel seems like the brainchild of this operation / letter. It fits her motivations and methods like deception , manipulation , fear / playing on emotions. The motivation obviously to get Jon to help her champion / claimant Stannis who is absolutely up against it facing oblivion at Winterfell. Especially without Jon's potential help / aid. The knowledge of what the letter mentions seems to line up with Mel as well. The repeated use of "false kings" also a bit of a giveaway and points to Mel as she's used that phraseology previously (sounds like Free folk terminology as well). Mance I agree with IDG could be the actual writer , it does seem extremely Mance centric the contents of the letter, the knowledge of such goings on especially after being down in Winterfell for a bit and vernacular lines up with Mance as well. Not sure if Mance ever referred to the NW as "black crows" but certainly would have the knowledge of that term having been among the Free folk for so long and a former NW brother himself as well. Plus could have chosen to incite extra anger out of Jon by using that term. And i do agree Ramsay is very unlikely , the knowledge of certain concepts & events doesn't line up with Ramsay so much , the vernacular and the the physical writing seems off. Also the lack of the proper Bolton wax seal , it was clarified as simply a smear of pink wax. Some of the methods and threats don't really line up with Ramsay either. Some departures from previous letters of Ramsay shown as well. Think you are spot on Robert as usual.
I tend to think that it was Stannis. Mainly because he said to Dareon that “you may hear that I am dead”. He knows that there will be some false news of his death.
@BenMedia7 You May be correct. Although, Stannis knows that he could die at any time from battle. He could be growing more desperate with his situation and decided that he needed to up the ante with Jon. Once again, you may be correc but……
Sadly, we'll likely never find out who wrote the letter. It's been around 13 years since A Dance with Dragons came out. Some of the samples chapters that have been released were originally in Feast for Crows/A Dance with Dragons and were cut at some point, so Martin has been writing it for over 13 years.
With the Pink Letter theory, over time I feel that whoever wrote the letter wanted to get Jon killed, not really encourage him to head to Winterfell to take back the castle from the Boltons. My issue with the theories that it was Mance, Melisandre, Stannis, etc., is that it implies that their intentions were to simply ‘motivate’ Jon to leave in order to “rightfully” take back Winterfell. The problem I see with this is that all of them (and most characters in general) should be aware of the oaths that brothers of the Night’s Watch take; one of the main ones being that abandonment of the Watch resulting in execution. So why would any of them risk Jon’s life when they know that creating a fake Ramsay letter will just trigger Jon to leave Castle Black and get him killed for leaving the Wall? Would any of them not consider the repercussions of having Jon being motivated to join in the conflicts of the South when he is the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch? It just doesn’t make sense that any of those characters would assume everything would just go smoothly if Jon just got up and left the Watch. And for those that might say that if Melisandre wrote the letter, it was because she saw it in the flames and was just giving the push Jon needed to leave, that doesn’t add up because she would still be fully aware of the Night’s Watch oaths - or those that say Mel needed to intentionally get Jon killed so that he can be resurrected, become R’hllor’s champion, and fulfill the Azor Ahai prophecy; for one thing it’s obvious that Mel still sees Stannis as Azor Ahai (despite the visions she gets of Snow), and there’s no indication that she knows that she has the capability of resurrecting anyone. Lately for a while now, I lean more towards the possibility/likelihood that whoever wrote the Pink Letter was a member of the Watch who was angry at Jon for everything he did up until that point (big one being the passing of the Wildlings through the Wall), and gathered other brothers who felt the same. I know it simplifies this whole theory and makes the result feel “underwhelming,” but Martin is an intelligent writer that would rather create a scenario that makes sense, than a situation that is simply for shock-value.
The only hole that would need filing is how one of the black brothers knew Mance was not only alive (they saw "him" burn) but that he was sent on a secret mission to Winterfell with exactly 6 women. It's definitely possible for someone to learn these things, but who and how?? I've been thinking about this a lot lately
@@lastofgiants Very true. That would be one of the flaws in the theory that it was one of the brothers. Maybe they overheard that conversation. I really don’t know.
@@colincarmello9751 Absolutely true. Maybe there was some interaction between the Night’s Watch maester and Stannis’s camp through ravens? Or maybe Stannis has a mole at the Watch. Really not sure. It’s frustrating how even the simplest theory that a brother of the Night’s Watch wrote the letter still has as many flaws as other theories 😅
Why would Mel have an issue with Jon breaking his oaths? She doesn’t know he’s Azor Ahai. She’s concerned about his life because she believes from the flames that he is crucial to Stannis’s fight. Specifically, she has seen him fighting in the flames at Winterfell. As Robert explained, the letter is a way for her to achieve this goal. She isn’t a black brother, and has no reason to care about Jon keeping his vows or about any repercussions he might face after he has done what she believes she needs him to do to help Stannis. Even if she did want Jon alive, she would probably expect Stannis to pardon Jon and make him Lord of Winterfell after they win - he already made the offer, and a king has that power.
Ramsay writing it is entirely consistent with Stannis surviving the battle, since in the Winds of Winter preview chapter Theon I he told Justin Massey that news of his death in battle may arrive, but to continue his mission regardless. Melisandre herself wouldn't know the name "Reek", so I agree she wouldn't have written it herself. The problem I have with the theory that it was intended to get Jon to join Stannis in battle is that if Jon believed Stannis was already defeated, then he had terrible odds for victory himself as Ramsay would be able to accomplish a defeat-in-detail like Robert Baratheon did repeatedly in one day near Summerhall (only Ramsay has more time to recover). Since Ramsay would expect to win such a battle, and he would control Winterfell's rookery from which letters are sent, the simplest answer really is the best one: he wrote it. He keeps talking about Mance because it is so shocking to Northern sensibilities for the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch to spare the wildling king who attacked the Wall and send him south against a Northern lord. Since Jon is murdered by watchmen who hear about this, Ramsay's calculations of its political implications would appear to be correct.
It was Mance Ryder. Why Barbery would care about the "wilding babe"? Or the "wilding princess"? Or....maybe , that caracter who's identity we dont know yet. That misterious man who Theon met in Winterfell. The hooded guy.
I always thought it was Mance. But what’s funny is this was the first ever mystery I got into after reading the books. Fun to think this consumed my mind directly after finishing the books for the first time 😅
Question: Of the following characters, who knows about "Reek"? Melisandre, Stannis, Mance, Alliser Thorne? If Alliser knows, then I'm pretty sure he's involved.
I was to write it was Marsh but I comment to push your answer. I may add it is very possible they saw thrue the glamour of Mance when he didn't wear the bones. Mel mentioned to him how important they are and the next time we see him he has but it on. Mance doesn't follow commands easily but maybe he thought someone was suspicious of him.
The warm cloak line between barbrey to theon a few chapters prior about the crypts that also appears in the letter seem to be a dead giveaway about who is behind it.
I love this theory as it makes far more sense than Wyman sending it and it would mean Mance is, for the moment, alive and well as I find him a fascinating character.
Interesting how there are several mysterious letters in ASOIAF which contain stuff so proactive they elicit some very passionate responsds. I like to think Aegon's dorne letter is a lil nod to Jon's true heritage
I genuinely think Ramsay wrote it but that someone at the wall or at Winterfell added a bunch of stuff before it got to Jon. Ramsay half writing a letter in a rage then leaving it. Maybe Mance finds it, finishes it, then sends it. Maybe Mel or some Night's Watchman found the letter first and added a few extra lines. It would explain why the ink isn't blood, why some of it doesn't sound like Ramsay, and why the pink wax wasn't with the Bolton seal. At this point I no longer believe such a wierd letter was the act of a sole person. I think Ramsay wrote most of it, but that is the most I believe with this
I would presume the letter (assuming it is not Ramsay) was written by Mance Rayder for Melisandre in a type of code. The length of the battle etc would be about setting up a meeting point. The reason for the code is to not give it away to Ramsey if he intercepts the letter. That is the letter is not exactly about getting Jon to do anything. It is about telling Melisandre what needs to be done in order to help them get "Arya" out of Winterfell. It was addressed to Jon only so it would definitely be read and to avoid the awkward suspicion of "why is someone like Ramsey writing to Melisandre?" I kind of hope so as well, as I like it more when things are not about Jon and when the characters don't care about him so much.
My issue with this otherwise sensible theory is that it leaves the matter of a frightened Clydas unresolved. Handwaved with a “Melisandre spooked him.” I think the only way to square his fear is that the traitorous Nights Watchmen made him deliver a false letter. It’s entirely possible that someone in the NW knew that Rattleshirt had been swapped in for Mance. They certainly would understand Jon and his temperament. And the fact that they moved so quickly to kill Jon may suggest that they were anticipating his reaction.
I've always wondered why Benjen stark turned up at winterfell the night of King Roberts feast. Shouldn't he have to forsake his family ties. Otherwise why can't Jon Snow just go to winter fell as he pleases?
I like the idea that that Mel had something todo with it, im pretty convinced it was Mance acting alone but if Mel put him up to it I wouldn't be shocked
Only George knows. I wonder if he has heard of the amount of debate around the pink letter. My personal opinion is that it was written by Ramsay. My issue with it being someone else is that I don’t think anyone would use the name “Reek”. There are people familiar with it, but no one thinks of Theon as “Reek” except Ramsey. To use the name “Reek” wouldn’t mean anything to Jon, why use it? Ramsay writing in an unthinking rage would though. Melissandre, I guess could be the writer if she got a vision and heard “Reek” in her flames. Don’t know if she would write “your false king” instead of just “Stannis Baratheon” though.
Excellent vid and a testament to the depth of GRRM’s writing. But ultimately I think it’s from Ramsay because of the mention of Reek. Reek is a particular fixation of Ramsay. Someone using Ramsay’s name for political reasons would have no reason to mention a superfluous slave. Ramsay, in a psychotic desperate rage, would demand Reek be returned
I think Alliser Thorne wrote the "Pink Letter" He wanted Jon Snow dead more then anybody. He's the one who came up with plan about Jon's uncle, He's the first one to stab Jon.
If Mance wrote it, he included stuff about himself on purpose. As if he wanted them to puzzle out that it was from him. Did he steal the seal or trick someone into using it?
Ultimate crackpot theory: when Barbrey and Theon went into the crypts, Brandon Stark arose from his de-sworded grave and followed them back up. Zombie!Brandon and Barbrey together wrote the pink letter. Zombie!Brandon is also the hooded man. Their motive for writing and sending the pink letter currently is a mystery, but it can’t remain unknown forever, mostly because of Barbrey’s love for exposition which rivals her jealousy and hatred for most everything else.
My money is on Ser Alliser. He was sent away by Commander Mormont but only temporarily. Plenty of time to learn the goings on in the rest of Westeros along his journey and he loved saying BASSted!
Another fantastic video, as always. But can you please answer what happened to your playlist "Robert, Lyanna and all that"? I was like halfway through watching those videos and now they've disappeared :(
That's possible, but why would Mance want to help Melisandre? He doesn't like her or her Red God. Plus, how do either of them know the significance of the name 'Reek'? I think there is a far better suspect, one who knows Jon better than any of them: Theon. Theon grew up with Jon and knows his moods. Theon also has the strongest motive for wanting Jon to come south. We know he spoke to Mance and his spear wives. He also fled Winterfell before the battle started and thus the strange timing of it can be explained as arbitrary. But most importantly, Theon knows what Reek means and he knows how much Arya means to Jon. He also knows how much Jon hates being called a bastard. He kept calling him that himself. I think there are definite hints in the book that Theon is undergoing a mental break. It could well be that he wrote the letter without knowing he wrote it during a disassociated moment.
I'm wondering if there was a letter sent by Ramsey but intercepted by Bowen and co. And if they subsequently rewrote it with a bit more inflammatory language and inserted a bit about Stannis as one last test for Jon's loyalties before implementing their plan. If he chose wrong (as he did) it would go ahead, if not he would live to see another day. Bowen and co just seemed a bit too prepared for action, and Jon's response would have served as the ultimate signal to take action. Clydas for his part could very well have already been aware of the letters contents and what the consequences could be hence why he was fearful
Probably the biggest inplication for ramsay not writing the pink letter is there is no mention of asha greyjoy...like at all. The biltons would surley want asha grayjoy as a prisoner, if they captured her they would have bragged about it in the letter, if she escaped they would have demanded her too.
I'm intrigued by this so much. I think it was someone at Castle Black. Very interested in what IDG has to say on the subject. ty so much for the content.
I’ve landed on the same theory myself, that it came from Castle Black, especially with how ready they all were to get stabbing. The one thing stalling me, though, is who would know there’s a Reek, and that he and Jeyne have absconded? I might re-read that chapter again, even though I only finished reading the entire series a couple of weeks ago.
Hhhhhmmm...all I can say is if Mel WAS corresponding with Mance at Winterfell, that would be the source of the "There's this dude named Reek who just escaped and Ramsey is FURIOUS." But...hhhhmmm...Great question. Thinking on it myself now...
@@richardtabor8686 Someone in another comment reminded me that the Spearwives had made it into Winterfell, and they were likely reporting back to Mance outside the walls, who then sent the letter. They could have told him about Reek, and that he escaped with fake Arya. He could’ve added those details to make it look more authentically from Ramsay…but…Jon doesn’t know about Reek and the escape, so it would’ve been pointless flavour? I need to re-read the chapter and have another think about it myself. In this process though, I’ve been wondering more about The Hooded Man. Could he have sent the pink letter? Could he be Mance?? ETA: WAIT!!?! Can Mance read and write? I know he was a Black Brother, but I’m not sure of his background before that? To the wiki I go.
If Mance was captured and tortured by the Boltons into admitting who he was, would they really believe him? "I'm the king of a foreign land who you believe dead and have never met before. I'm here disguised as a singer (as I'm quite the musician) and plan to steal Ned Stark's daughter for some reason. Everyone saw me die but I was disguised as someone else due to a magic spell". It would all sound like a random bad lie
The most convoluted plans having the most disastrous unintended consequences is very much in keeping with the themes of the series. I could buy Mance writing it with Melisandre’s instructions. It’s even plausible she could dictate it to him via the ruby bracelet. If only Winds would come out. Ever.
It's Lady Dustin with mances help. She's one of the only people that know ravenry which is necessary, has the Bolton seal, it uses the term crows, had theon show her where mances was hiding along with the warm cloak reference, seemingly is secretly pro stark, as she always wanted to be one, hates Ramsey, spearwives calling theon kinslayer. Really there's only a few people who can be involved just based on being able to send a raven.
Slightly off topic but I think the show did a much better job with Jon’s murder than in the book. In the show Jon’s assassination is masterminded by Alistar Thorne (who in the book had already been executed by Jon for disobeying orders. Thorne sets up Jon by having Ollie (who is Jon’s steward and has Jon’s trust) that a wildling has info on Jon’s uncle Benjen (which Jon would be very interested in). In the Book Jon Is just gang stabbed by a bunch of stewards angry at him for abandoning the watch.
My just-kidding mental gymnastics guess is Littlefinger bc it would be Funny and on-brand. Seriously, I want to believe Mance wrote it specifically that way to signal to Jon "hey its me, where's my people"; maybe I'm underestimating Melisandre but she doesn't strike me as THAT clever, although I do concede that the evidence is definitely there.
Stannis tried his way & it failed. Saying "this isn't a typical Stannis method" & acting as if that's a legitimate rebuttal is not smart. Edit: I like the idea that it's Melisandre better than that it's Night's Watchmen, as I've seen concluded in other videos.
I think Ramsey wrote it. The different handwriting could be because the other letters were written by the maester at winterfell for Ramsey. The smeared ink could be a sign of his anger at losing "Arya" and Theon. Maybe this a stretch but if he did torture the information out of Mance he could want to use his family to further punish Mance. The defeat of Stannis could be a bluff to make Jon comply to the letter it would be hard to threaten others with an army closing in on you. Also if Jon did comply Ramsey would have Stannis's family to use against him. I probably wrong but it just doesn't make sense anyone else demanding "my reek" back in the letter. The only person who would assume Jon knows anything about reek is Ramsey thinking they ran to the wall.
Edit: nevermind I commented before the end of the video. I agree with you. :Edit It wasn't Stannis. It would completely go against his character. It may have been someone from his camp but not him. I suspect it was Mance Raider after infiltrating Winterfell and getting access to Ramses seal. I'm not sure what exactly his game plan is but I think it was him.
Im Sorry but i want to ask something unrelated to this Video; am i just stupid or is the playlist about Roberts Rebellion no more? I recently wanted to rewatch it but couldnt find it, is there a reason?
Even though I only watched the show and didn't read the books, it seemed like things were too convenient for Melisandre and I always suspected she played a role in Jon's death. The show made it feel obvious.
Robert does 2.5-4 hour livestreams / deep dives on his live channel IDG Live most weeks. And some of his older content used to be 30-60 minutes the non-live vids. So seems like he is changing it up with much of the new content or redone versions of videos he has done before , like this one.
This letter is so impossibly evil that I freaking love it. The language is perfect. Things like these are why George is such a good writer, he immerses himself in a character and he's able to think like them; in a way, those characters are alive, inside George's head, but very much alive. It's even written in a brutalist way, with short scentences, with no room for interpretation and stating supposed facts that make Ramsay seem like a force of nature, someone not to be messed with. Of couse we don't know how much of this is true or even who wrote it of course, but it's written (by the true author, Ramsay or not) as if Ramsay had written it.
I was first thinking littlefinger, but then it hit me: wouldn't he try to set Jon and Stannis against each other, rather than bring them into an alliance? While using Stannis's ambition get rid of Ramsay would serve littlefinger's aims in short term, in long term there's a possibility of grateful north emerging to support Stannis's claim. Littlefinger is out to get it all, and getting rid of one obstacle and replace it with a huge one doesn't bode well for those plans. It would be far better for him to keep Jon away from Stannis. So Melissandra seems far more likely candidate.
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My favorite theory is that Ramsay wrote a letter, but not the one that Jon actually received. Bowen Marsh and his cadre were becoming increasingly pissed off at Jon for his decisions regarding the Night's Watch, and were looking for an excuse to stage a coup. Ramsay wrote a letter to Jon containing MOST of what was said in the pink letter, but it was intercepted by Bowen Marsh and re-written with new details and more inflammatory language in a bid to get Jon to do exactly what he did. This explains why the pink wax was smeared instead of a nice button, why the letter was in the wrong handwriting and in maester's ink, and why there were details that only Ramsay could have known, and also details Ramsay could not possibly have known. It explains why Clydas was terrified of giving the letter to Jon. Marsh probably made him write the doctored letter. Plus, it just seems in GRRM's style to have a clever explanation to a mystery like that.
Very plausible
@@finhese This is the best theory amongst all of the ones that are out there. Every other theory has some kind of flaw in it.
It's just too bad that we're never going to be able to know the truth.
I never heard of this before but it makes a lot of sense.
I've never heard this but to me this literally makes PERFECT sense
Just to add to this, learning via Ramsay’s real letter that Mance was, presumably, alive, might have been the straw that broke the camel’s back.
I admit I did not think that Mel as a candidate for the letter writer, though she is the ONLY one who knows for sure about Mance NOT being burned, aside from John and Mance himself.
But how she could know about reek?
IDG says it was Mel's idea but Mance actually wrote it. So Mance would know about Reek
Who's John ?
@@JunMoo1993Jon Snow. Don’t be pedantic, that’s my job.
@@fal2218Melisandre does in fact possess magic, but she’s been trained in tricks to enhance people’s belief in it. She could possibly have seen Theon in the flames. Let’s not forget Thoros has resurrected Beric several times, Moqorro heals Victarion’s hand, and Beric revived the dead Catelyn Stark. So there is probably some ability to see visions in the flames, though not perfect.
A schizo theory of mine is that the letter comes from someone within the night's watch. They wanted to bait Jon into breaking his vows so they'd have an excuse to kill him. The guy delivering the letter was shaking because he knew he was now complicit in a conspiracy
Except they don’t know who Reek is or the fact Mance is alive.
@Poindexterous there was another comment saying Bowen Marsh received the letter and changed it a bit to get Jon to take the bait. So Ramsay did write the letter, Bowen Marsh added to it.
@@Keeperifthecheesethat sounds like the best theory to me
@@Keeperifthecheese I'd imagine it must be more than just Marsh working alone, the watch respond very quickly. Almost as if they were ready.
@@Poindexterous Also how can Ramsay know what Mance looks like and who he is, even if he captures Mance/Abel how would he find out?
Ultimately I believe Lady Barbrey Dustin penned the letter, but Melisandre is my dark horse. For all the reasons you mentioned, and one you didn't- to precipitate the rebirth of Azor Ahai; something she believes is necessary to save mankind. When Mel says she "prays for a glimpse of Azor Ahai but R'hllor shows her only Snow", the 's' in "snow" is capitalized- implying she's referring to a person, ie Jon Snow, rather than the weather. It's possible she came to her senses and realized Jon is the savior rather than Stannis, and decided to act after seeing Jon transition from "man to wolf to man again" because that depiction showed him "coming back", so she know her resurrection ritual would be successful. Plus if she saves Jon, then how could he question his need of her anymore? Anyway, those are just my thoughts. Great video!
It's a good theory for Mel. Though I'm not sure what would make her change her mind on Stannis. I think eventually Mel will realize Jon is Azor Ahai, but it probably won't happen until it's revealed that his true parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna.
I think Ramsey probably did just write the letter. Barbery Dustin doesn't know Jon. The night lamp theory is probably what's really going on. 7 days of battle!?! That's the part that really stands out for me. It would have been an hour of battle given the forces. Stannis is no fool and he was confident of victory in the Theon sample chapter.
The Freys were lured onto the ice and once it started to break because of the catapults, the white harbor men kept them from retreating by taking them in rear. It's almost too perfect. This victory will be a massive and well needed morale boost to Stannis's army. After that they take Winterfell unawares, sending in there own men through the gates disguised as the Frey army. By the time Roose Bolton and Ramsey realize what's happening it'd have already happened.
It's going to epic
@@KingSlayer_. Well, in my head, what makes her change her mind is realizing that R'hllor never shows her Stannis when she asks for glimpses of Azor Ahai; she only sees "Snow", meaning Jon Snow. That's what I meant by highlighting the importance of the 's' in snow being capitalized, because it changes the connotation of the vision/the passage explaining it. Something else that's noteworthy- the Pink Letter uses the phrase "false king" to reference Stannis. Melisandre is one of only two characters in the story to use that phrase in her speech (the other is Wyman Manderly). So it's another indication she could be the author. As it pertains to Lady Barbrey, she doesn't need to know Jon to have written the letter. For a variety of reasons, I think she wrote the letter on behalf of Lord Wyman and the other co-conspirators within Winterfell, and Rowan the spear wife (whom I believe is Rowan Umber, long-lost daughter of Crowfood Umber) was their source for intel about events and people at the Wall. In other words, because Barbrey's co-conspirator Wyman needs Jon at Winterfell, she'll write the letter to Jon since Wyman can't. Wyman is watched by Roose and doesn't trust his maester; Barbrey has been given free reign in Winterfell because Roose needs her alliance, so he does things to keep her "happy". She'd need that "freedom" to access the ravens undisturbed. Also, Barbrey writes her own letters so she wouldn't need to make end-runs around a maester she can't trust to do it. Lastly, I believe she sent the letter during Lord Wyman's skirmish with the Freys after Little Walder's body was found. She was conspicuously absent from the Great Hall at that time, so I'm betting that whole thing was a diversion so she could send the letter undetected. The timing lines up perfectly with Jon receiving the letter several chapters later.
I never considered Lady Dustin but that’s an interesting thought. I enjoyed her minor storyline in Dance.
@@ashleyofnaath unless she wrote the word Snow out, and the capitalized version was an in-world quote, then I wouldn't assume that. Although I admit it's hard to think of a reason it would be capitalized by Martin otherwise, except as a red herring.
Any theory that requires Mel to competently interpret her visions is a stretch
I thought it was kinda known or accepted that Hodor is the only person that makes sense
it is known
Dear Hodor,
Hodor. Hodor . Hodor .
Sincerely,
Hodor
Yeah but these mad tinfoil types just won't accept the obvious 😅
“Hodor hodor”-Hodor
Jon snow-“WHO FIGHTS WITH ME”
@@greengenes5129it is known
Literally looking at my bookcase a minute ago deciding if I read the series again, guess the universe answered it😅
I’m reading it again after listening to these videos so much has become clear!
One of my favourite topics of discussion in ASOIAF, Robert. Thanks for another one. :)
That letter made legitimate threats to the Night’s Watch. Taking care of that threat is not breaking vows.
That said. I think the anti-Jon Night’s Watch wrote the letter and Clyde knew this or was even forced to write it, which is why he was terrified.
The smeared wax means it was open and resealed as best as possible. A real letter came in and was opened and manipulated to get Jon to go south.
It is still breaking their vows as their prime objective is to watch the wall. Politics comes second, protecting the wall will always come first
One interesting candidate I've seen rarely mentioned is Lady Dustin, she at one point I think had an opened letter and Bolton seal in the snow. Her being with Theon and him telling her she is still a contender against Roose could make her write it, but I don't see any reason why she would
Does she know about Mance's fake death though?
@@TheIndieKitten The only way I can see her knowing about that is if Mance as Abel was captured and tortured, or one of his spear wives if they know. The only problem with this is that this can be said also for Ramsey being the author
Her and mance are working together. Along with the knowledge of what the umbers and manderlys are doing. Wyman didn't have a singer and that's how mance got in.
George RR Martin wrote it.
r/technicallythetruth
You beat me to it by 4 minutes
@@austinhall3937 I mean, its not like we invented the joke, it had to be commented eventually.
Hot take, Doubt tbh
It is known
May be why she ultimately decides to resurrect him.
If it was her direct deceitful actions that got Jon killed then she might've been required to by her religious beliefs and practices.
It wasn't her intention to cost his life but she was responsible. Knowing that would make her wanna balance all that out somehow.
Or more importantly, it may be why the God decides to.
Many of mely's powers are unknown to even herself, maybye she gives him the same fire funeral that the lighthing lord recived and resurrects by accident.
I don't think we have enough information to know who wrote it yet. It's chronologically the latest chapter we have, which means it could be motivated by things we haven't seen happen yet. Not to mention characters could have the knowledge to write it who don't have that knowledge "yet". The inclusion of Reek is confusing for everyone. As I just said in another comment, not only has Jon never heard of Reek, but all the potential writers would know that. There are basically enough details included to rule out all of them, until we get more information.
This is why I think it’s Mance. He’d know ‘reek’ escaped winterfell and was on the way back to the wall
One thing that I havent yet heard mentioned is that it might have been someone from the watch. One thing that is very obvious to me is that they wanted to kill him before the letter (there are many proofs including ghosts behaviour or that the wun-wun incident seems staged) so maybe they decided to write the letter to convince everyone else in the nights watch that jon is a deserter. Because jons reaction to it would be obvious to everyone who knows him. I feel like the person who wrote it had to know that jon would be in danger. I still think that Mance is more likely but it is possible...
I like this theory. I’ve *only just* finished ADWD a couple of weeks ago, so it’s fresh in my mind, and my own theorising is recent. I like this one, except for one line: ‘and I want my Reek’. Who knew about Reek outside the Bolton coterie? Yes, Melisandre could pooossssibly have magicked that information to herself, but from what we know, her messages come from deciphering images in the flames, not names and not something as unexpected and complex as ‘your foster brother, who as far as you know killed your brothers and burnt your home down, was being kept as a plaything by this PoS, but he escaped’. And even if she had somehow found that out…in the letter it just says ‘Reek’. Why would Jon care or even know it was Theon, if it was part of a means to get him down to winterfell?
I don’t have any solid theories myself, though, so this is more than I’ve come up with. My initial thought was it was someone he was beefing with within castle black, who wanted reason to get stabby on Jon…however the Reek thing, and also knowledge that Jeyne had escaped put an end to that line of enquiry.
Who also knows they’ve escaped and seems to be an ally to The North though? The hooded man?
This is the detail that I get stuck on myself. Who at the Wall would know about Reek?
The idea is that Mel sent Mance with instructions to write the letter, she didn’t write it herself. That’s why there’s the wildling lingo and all the Mance talk. Mance knows Reek - him and the spearwives have been interacting with him in disguise and ferreting out gossip and rumours from the people in Winterfell. He also knows that Theon escaped with fake Arya.
So it’s possible that Mance is adding all of this as realistic flavour to make the letter convincing, or more likely the letter is also supposed to serve as a way of communicating to Melisandre some important information he’s learned.
@@Sheija Oh yeah, I’d forgotten that the spearwives had made it inside and to Reek already. Menopause is a hell of a drug. Ok that’s something for me to ruminate on now
@@RoxanneLaWinSTABBY This is the most difficult detail for me too. Jon's never even heard of Reek. Not only would Jon not know who that was, but all the potential writers would know that. It's a weird inclusion for any of them. That's why I still say we don't have enough information to know who wrote it.
@@JervisGermane I think the why of it might be of less importance. Before we ask why, who needs an answer. At this point, the only ones who potentially have ALL the information contained in the letter is Mance. Sure he or the spear wives might have broken under torture and revealed the information, but there isn't much reason for him to be that detailed about Mance in the letter. From his standpoint, "Arya" would be Jon's greatest motivation to come south, not Mance. If the writer really believed "Arya" was in Jon's custody, they'd know he'd have LESS reason to impulsively ride south. If Ramsay wrote it and believed that, then the jig was up. Jon could send ravens to expose the lie.
There's also the meta question is why would George spoil so much in advance? That's the question if Ramsay were the author.
Preston Jacobs wrote it
Yeah, from the Tower of Whatever before it was torn down to build a rock-boat-rocket that picked up fish men from somewhere.
he's literate?
Mance definitely wrote that letter. That's where I'm at
I agree, though Mel might have ordered him to do so. Either that or this is his scheme to break free of her, possibly even in the hope the wildlings will now mutiny and free his family
It was either Barbie, Hodor or Mord.
Maybe even Sir Pounce.
Probably Moon Boy for all I know
Nah, Mushroom.
Ser Pounce definitely needs more page time imo
It was Shagga. He fed the goats and only then did he send the letter.
Euron. I mean, he's done everything else...
Great vid as always IDG , look forward to more and more of these redone versions of previous videos of yours. And i do agree, surely Mel seems like the brainchild of this operation / letter. It fits her motivations and methods like deception , manipulation , fear / playing on emotions. The motivation obviously to get Jon to help her champion / claimant Stannis who is absolutely up against it facing oblivion at Winterfell. Especially without Jon's potential help / aid. The knowledge of what the letter mentions seems to line up with Mel as well. The repeated use of "false kings" also a bit of a giveaway and points to Mel as she's used that phraseology previously (sounds like Free folk terminology as well). Mance I agree with IDG could be the actual writer , it does seem extremely Mance centric the contents of the letter, the knowledge of such goings on especially after being down in Winterfell for a bit and vernacular lines up with Mance as well. Not sure if Mance ever referred to the NW as "black crows" but certainly would have the knowledge of that term having been among the Free folk for so long and a former NW brother himself as well. Plus could have chosen to incite extra anger out of Jon by using that term.
And i do agree Ramsay is very unlikely , the knowledge of certain concepts & events doesn't line up with Ramsay so much , the vernacular and the the physical writing seems off. Also the lack of the proper Bolton wax seal , it was clarified as simply a smear of pink wax. Some of the methods and threats don't really line up with Ramsay either. Some departures from previous letters of Ramsay shown as well.
Think you are spot on Robert as usual.
Ramsay wouldn't call Jon "bastard" as an insult, given he was also a Snow (until legitimized). That's a highborn pureblood insult
Yus! I like how you made it a a story and lead us through your thought process. ty again.
I tend to think that it was Stannis. Mainly because he said to Dareon that “you may hear that I am dead”. He knows that there will be some false news of his death.
@BenMedia7 You May be correct. Although, Stannis knows that he could die at any time from battle. He could be growing more desperate with his situation and decided that he needed to up the ante with Jon. Once again, you may be correc but……
Love these revisits!
Sadly, we'll likely never find out who wrote the letter. It's been around 13 years since A Dance with Dragons came out. Some of the samples chapters that have been released were originally in Feast for Crows/A Dance with Dragons and were cut at some point, so Martin has been writing it for over 13 years.
Hey, this is a bit unrelated. But have you ever considerd doing a video on the Discworld?
Whenever I see an In Deep Geek video starting with "who", a part of me expects the answer to be Littlefinger.
Are we sure it's not Littlefinger? 😆
With the Pink Letter theory, over time I feel that whoever wrote the letter wanted to get Jon killed, not really encourage him to head to Winterfell to take back the castle from the Boltons.
My issue with the theories that it was Mance, Melisandre, Stannis, etc., is that it implies that their intentions were to simply ‘motivate’ Jon to leave in order to “rightfully” take back Winterfell. The problem I see with this is that all of them (and most characters in general) should be aware of the oaths that brothers of the Night’s Watch take; one of the main ones being that abandonment of the Watch resulting in execution. So why would any of them risk Jon’s life when they know that creating a fake Ramsay letter will just trigger Jon to leave Castle Black and get him killed for leaving the Wall? Would any of them not consider the repercussions of having Jon being motivated to join in the conflicts of the South when he is the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch? It just doesn’t make sense that any of those characters would assume everything would just go smoothly if Jon just got up and left the Watch.
And for those that might say that if Melisandre wrote the letter, it was because she saw it in the flames and was just giving the push Jon needed to leave, that doesn’t add up because she would still be fully aware of the Night’s Watch oaths - or those that say Mel needed to intentionally get Jon killed so that he can be resurrected, become R’hllor’s champion, and fulfill the Azor Ahai prophecy; for one thing it’s obvious that Mel still sees Stannis as Azor Ahai (despite the visions she gets of Snow), and there’s no indication that she knows that she has the capability of resurrecting anyone.
Lately for a while now, I lean more towards the possibility/likelihood that whoever wrote the Pink Letter was a member of the Watch who was angry at Jon for everything he did up until that point (big one being the passing of the Wildlings through the Wall), and gathered other brothers who felt the same. I know it simplifies this whole theory and makes the result feel “underwhelming,” but Martin is an intelligent writer that would rather create a scenario that makes sense, than a situation that is simply for shock-value.
The only hole that would need filing is how one of the black brothers knew Mance was not only alive (they saw "him" burn) but that he was sent on a secret mission to Winterfell with exactly 6 women. It's definitely possible for someone to learn these things, but who and how?? I've been thinking about this a lot lately
How would they know about Reek?
@@lastofgiants Very true. That would be one of the flaws in the theory that it was one of the brothers. Maybe they overheard that conversation. I really don’t know.
@@colincarmello9751 Absolutely true. Maybe there was some interaction between the Night’s Watch maester and Stannis’s camp through ravens? Or maybe Stannis has a mole at the Watch. Really not sure. It’s frustrating how even the simplest theory that a brother of the Night’s Watch wrote the letter still has as many flaws as other theories 😅
Why would Mel have an issue with Jon breaking his oaths? She doesn’t know he’s Azor Ahai. She’s concerned about his life because she believes from the flames that he is crucial to Stannis’s fight. Specifically, she has seen him fighting in the flames at Winterfell.
As Robert explained, the letter is a way for her to achieve this goal. She isn’t a black brother, and has no reason to care about Jon keeping his vows or about any repercussions he might face after he has done what she believes she needs him to do to help Stannis.
Even if she did want Jon alive, she would probably expect Stannis to pardon Jon and make him Lord of Winterfell after they win - he already made the offer, and a king has that power.
Ramsay writing it is entirely consistent with Stannis surviving the battle, since in the Winds of Winter preview chapter Theon I he told Justin Massey that news of his death in battle may arrive, but to continue his mission regardless.
Melisandre herself wouldn't know the name "Reek", so I agree she wouldn't have written it herself. The problem I have with the theory that it was intended to get Jon to join Stannis in battle is that if Jon believed Stannis was already defeated, then he had terrible odds for victory himself as Ramsay would be able to accomplish a defeat-in-detail like Robert Baratheon did repeatedly in one day near Summerhall (only Ramsay has more time to recover). Since Ramsay would expect to win such a battle, and he would control Winterfell's rookery from which letters are sent, the simplest answer really is the best one: he wrote it. He keeps talking about Mance because it is so shocking to Northern sensibilities for the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch to spare the wildling king who attacked the Wall and send him south against a Northern lord. Since Jon is murdered by watchmen who hear about this, Ramsay's calculations of its political implications would appear to be correct.
We need more videos like this, before the winds of winter ❤
Very interesting analysis. I'd always taken it at face value, but you make a very good argument. Hopefully, we will all find out for sure one day.
Can the king pardon a Night's watchman from his vows? Like are they the supreme authority or is that not within their domain?
Your videos are always a blessing 👏
It was Patchface. “The shadows come to dance my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord. The shadows come to stay my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord...”
"come and see"
It was Mance Ryder. Why Barbery would care about the "wilding babe"? Or the "wilding princess"? Or....maybe , that caracter who's identity we dont know yet. That misterious man who Theon met in Winterfell. The hooded guy.
I love idg. Preston nailed this!! Where are we going?
I always thought it was Mance. But what’s funny is this was the first ever mystery I got into after reading the books. Fun to think this consumed my mind directly after finishing the books for the first time 😅
Maybe, just maybe… it was Bloodraven/Bran.
Maybe Jon dies at Hardhome, maybe he needs to unite the north first
Question: Of the following characters, who knows about "Reek"? Melisandre, Stannis, Mance, Alliser Thorne? If Alliser knows, then I'm pretty sure he's involved.
Wasn't this video realese earlier? I ask becouse i remember that i watch thos video once but i couldnt find this video.
It's the anti-Jon faction of the watch, with information and recycled pink wax they got from a real letter from Ramsey. Clydas is one of them.
Well that's a good one.
I was to write it was Marsh but I comment to push your answer. I may add it is very possible they saw thrue the glamour of Mance when he didn't wear the bones. Mel mentioned to him how important they are and the next time we see him he has but it on. Mance doesn't follow commands easily but maybe he thought someone was suspicious of him.
How would they know about Reek and the faked death of Mance though?
The warm cloak line between barbrey to theon a few chapters prior about the crypts that also appears in the letter seem to be a dead giveaway about who is behind it.
I love this theory as it makes far more sense than Wyman sending it and it would mean Mance is, for the moment, alive and well as I find him a fascinating character.
Game of Thrones still going on with u
Thanks man 😊
Great stuff as always robert
Interesting how there are several mysterious letters in ASOIAF which contain stuff so proactive they elicit some very passionate responsds. I like to think Aegon's dorne letter is a lil nod to Jon's true heritage
I genuinely think Ramsay wrote it but that someone at the wall or at Winterfell added a bunch of stuff before it got to Jon. Ramsay half writing a letter in a rage then leaving it. Maybe Mance finds it, finishes it, then sends it. Maybe Mel or some Night's Watchman found the letter first and added a few extra lines.
It would explain why the ink isn't blood, why some of it doesn't sound like Ramsay, and why the pink wax wasn't with the Bolton seal. At this point I no longer believe such a wierd letter was the act of a sole person. I think Ramsay wrote most of it, but that is the most I believe with this
I would presume the letter (assuming it is not Ramsay) was written by Mance Rayder for Melisandre in a type of code. The length of the battle etc would be about setting up a meeting point. The reason for the code is to not give it away to Ramsey if he intercepts the letter.
That is the letter is not exactly about getting Jon to do anything. It is about telling Melisandre what needs to be done in order to help them get "Arya" out of Winterfell. It was addressed to Jon only so it would definitely be read and to avoid the awkward suspicion of "why is someone like Ramsey writing to Melisandre?"
I kind of hope so as well, as I like it more when things are not about Jon and when the characters don't care about him so much.
My issue with this otherwise sensible theory is that it leaves the matter of a frightened Clydas unresolved. Handwaved with a “Melisandre spooked him.”
I think the only way to square his fear is that the traitorous Nights Watchmen made him deliver a false letter. It’s entirely possible that someone in the NW knew that Rattleshirt had been swapped in for Mance. They certainly would understand Jon and his temperament. And the fact that they moved so quickly to kill Jon may suggest that they were anticipating his reaction.
It probably was a group effort on everyone parts and it probably will nevertheless be a mystery which Jon will be very eager to solve once he returns.
In Deep Geek: Who wrote the pink letter?
Show version Alliser Thorne: I did.
Book fans: Who will write The Winds of Winter?
Arya Stark: No one.
I've always wondered why Benjen stark turned up at winterfell the night of King Roberts feast. Shouldn't he have to forsake his family ties. Otherwise why can't Jon Snow just go to winter fell as he pleases?
I always thought it was the nights watch men who were growing to hate Jon, they wanted him dead, they just needed an excuse to kill him.
I like the idea that that Mel had something todo with it, im pretty convinced it was Mance acting alone but if Mel put him up to it I wouldn't be shocked
If you’re revisiting old videos relating to Mel can you look into what she meant by “waking stone dragons” next haha?
Only George knows. I wonder if he has heard of the amount of debate around the pink letter.
My personal opinion is that it was written by Ramsay. My issue with it being someone else is that I don’t think anyone would use the name “Reek”. There are people familiar with it, but no one thinks of Theon as “Reek” except Ramsey. To use the name “Reek” wouldn’t mean anything to Jon, why use it? Ramsay writing in an unthinking rage would though. Melissandre, I guess could be the writer if she got a vision and heard “Reek” in her flames. Don’t know if she would write “your false king” instead of just “Stannis Baratheon” though.
Amazing video! Will you be making videos on Dance of the Dragons? Any how, looking forward to all future videos!
Excellent vid and a testament to the depth of GRRM’s writing. But ultimately I think it’s from Ramsay because of the mention of Reek. Reek is a particular fixation of Ramsay. Someone using Ramsay’s name for political reasons would have no reason to mention a superfluous slave. Ramsay, in a psychotic desperate rage, would demand Reek be returned
I think Alliser Thorne wrote the "Pink Letter" He wanted Jon Snow dead more then anybody.
He's the one who came up with plan about Jon's uncle, He's the first one to stab Jon.
Signed: Ramsey Bolton (not Mance Rayder)
If Mance wrote it, he included stuff about himself on purpose. As if he wanted them to puzzle out that it was from him. Did he steal the seal or trick someone into using it?
Ultimate crackpot theory: when Barbrey and Theon went into the crypts, Brandon Stark arose from his de-sworded grave and followed them back up. Zombie!Brandon and Barbrey together wrote the pink letter. Zombie!Brandon is also the hooded man. Their motive for writing and sending the pink letter currently is a mystery, but it can’t remain unknown forever, mostly because of Barbrey’s love for exposition which rivals her jealousy and hatred for most everything else.
Why your old contents about Fire & Blood are missing from your playlist???😌
My money is on Ser Alliser. He was sent away by Commander Mormont but only temporarily. Plenty of time to learn the goings on in the rest of Westeros along his journey and he loved saying BASSted!
In the books Alistair was executed with Janos Slynt for disobeying Jon’s orders after Jon becomes Lord Commander. So he’s off the list of suspects
@@andrewward5891 No, he was not executed, he refused to protect Slynt.
Okay now we are getting DEEP
Another fantastic video, as always. But can you please answer what happened to your playlist "Robert, Lyanna and all that"? I was like halfway through watching those videos and now they've disappeared :(
This is the one. Ladies and gentlemen, we got her
Nice job, Also… 700k In Deep Geek…..10k In Deep Live…..congratulations 🌝
That's possible, but why would Mance want to help Melisandre? He doesn't like her or her Red God. Plus, how do either of them know the significance of the name 'Reek'? I think there is a far better suspect, one who knows Jon better than any of them: Theon. Theon grew up with Jon and knows his moods. Theon also has the strongest motive for wanting Jon to come south. We know he spoke to Mance and his spear wives. He also fled Winterfell before the battle started and thus the strange timing of it can be explained as arbitrary. But most importantly, Theon knows what Reek means and he knows how much Arya means to Jon. He also knows how much Jon hates being called a bastard. He kept calling him that himself. I think there are definite hints in the book that Theon is undergoing a mental break. It could well be that he wrote the letter without knowing he wrote it during a disassociated moment.
Hey what happened to your videos about Robert's Rebellion? There not here anymore
You saw they casted dunk and egg 🥚
I'm wondering if there was a letter sent by Ramsey but intercepted by Bowen and co. And if they subsequently rewrote it with a bit more inflammatory language and inserted a bit about Stannis as one last test for Jon's loyalties before implementing their plan. If he chose wrong (as he did) it would go ahead, if not he would live to see another day.
Bowen and co just seemed a bit too prepared for action, and Jon's response would have served as the ultimate signal to take action.
Clydas for his part could very well have already been aware of the letters contents and what the consequences could be hence why he was fearful
Probably the biggest inplication for ramsay not writing the pink letter is there is no mention of asha greyjoy...like at all. The biltons would surley want asha grayjoy as a prisoner, if they captured her they would have bragged about it in the letter, if she escaped they would have demanded her too.
"And I want my Reek" He's like what Daryl was to Negan. I gotta get me my Daryl back!
I'm intrigued by this so much. I think it was someone at Castle Black. Very interested in what IDG has to say on the subject. ty so much for the content.
I’ve landed on the same theory myself, that it came from Castle Black, especially with how ready they all were to get stabbing. The one thing stalling me, though, is who would know there’s a Reek, and that he and Jeyne have absconded? I might re-read that chapter again, even though I only finished reading the entire series a couple of weeks ago.
Hhhhhmmm...all I can say is if Mel WAS corresponding with Mance at Winterfell, that would be the source of the "There's this dude named Reek who just escaped and Ramsey is FURIOUS." But...hhhhmmm...Great question. Thinking on it myself now...
@@richardtabor8686 Someone in another comment reminded me that the Spearwives had made it into Winterfell, and they were likely reporting back to Mance outside the walls, who then sent the letter. They could have told him about Reek, and that he escaped with fake Arya. He could’ve added those details to make it look more authentically from Ramsay…but…Jon doesn’t know about Reek and the escape, so it would’ve been pointless flavour? I need to re-read the chapter and have another think about it myself.
In this process though, I’ve been wondering more about The Hooded Man. Could he have sent the pink letter? Could he be Mance??
ETA: WAIT!!?! Can Mance read and write? I know he was a Black Brother, but I’m not sure of his background before that? To the wiki I go.
@@RoxanneLaWinSTABBYyou might wanna re-read those chapters again....
Hey so what happened to your Roberts rebellion videos.? There not on here anymore
Thank you, Robert.
Thobert.
Kidney pie crumbs curiously stuck on the letter
If Mance was captured and tortured by the Boltons into admitting who he was, would they really believe him? "I'm the king of a foreign land who you believe dead and have never met before. I'm here disguised as a singer (as I'm quite the musician) and plan to steal Ned Stark's daughter for some reason. Everyone saw me die but I was disguised as someone else due to a magic spell". It would all sound like a random bad lie
John is "Good Snow", and Ramsay is "Bad Snow."
The Strong Reap what they Will, and the Weak suffer what they must.
The pink letter was written by a horse.
And it's probably Bojack horseman
The most convoluted plans having the most disastrous unintended consequences is very much in keeping with the themes of the series. I could buy Mance writing it with Melisandre’s instructions. It’s even plausible she could dictate it to him via the ruby bracelet. If only Winds would come out. Ever.
It's Lady Dustin with mances help. She's one of the only people that know ravenry which is necessary, has the Bolton seal, it uses the term crows, had theon show her where mances was hiding along with the warm cloak reference, seemingly is secretly pro stark, as she always wanted to be one, hates Ramsey, spearwives calling theon kinslayer.
Really there's only a few people who can be involved just based on being able to send a raven.
Slightly off topic but I think the show did a much better job with Jon’s murder than in the book. In the show Jon’s assassination is masterminded by Alistar Thorne (who in the book had already been executed by Jon for disobeying orders. Thorne sets up Jon by having Ollie (who is Jon’s steward and has Jon’s trust) that a wildling has info on Jon’s uncle Benjen (which Jon would be very interested in). In the Book Jon Is just gang stabbed by a bunch of stewards angry at him for abandoning the watch.
Thorne is out ranging. Did you even read the books?
Lady Dustin conspired with Mance to write it. That’s why the black crows terminology is there.
I'm pretty certain it's Mance.
That it was Melisandre's plan? I'm not as certain, but I hadn't previously considered it and it is plausible.
My just-kidding mental gymnastics guess is Littlefinger bc it would be Funny and on-brand.
Seriously, I want to believe Mance wrote it specifically that way to signal to Jon "hey its me, where's my people"; maybe I'm underestimating Melisandre but she doesn't strike me as THAT clever, although I do concede that the evidence is definitely there.
It was Wyman Manderly in concert with Mance and the Umbers.
Would Mance know all these details? The stuff about Theon? It’s a bit of a rambling letter, I need to watch this again.
Who will write the remaining books? Clearly not George!
Is this a reupload? I feel like I’ve heard this video before, still worth revisiting though
Love the videos ❤❤❤ what happened to the Travelers Guide videos
Robert recently announced he took them down and redoing the series. Not sure if the old ones still available on Patreon or not.
Stannis tried his way & it failed. Saying "this isn't a typical Stannis method" & acting as if that's a legitimate rebuttal is not smart.
Edit: I like the idea that it's Melisandre better than that it's Night's Watchmen, as I've seen concluded in other videos.
Think Mel dictated the letter to Mance long distance via her neck ruby?
I think Ramsey wrote it. The different handwriting could be because the other letters were written by the maester at winterfell for Ramsey. The smeared ink could be a sign of his anger at losing "Arya" and Theon. Maybe this a stretch but if he did torture the information out of Mance he could want to use his family to further punish Mance. The defeat of Stannis could be a bluff to make Jon comply to the letter it would be hard to threaten others with an army closing in on you. Also if Jon did comply Ramsey would have Stannis's family to use against him. I probably wrong but it just doesn't make sense anyone else demanding "my reek" back in the letter. The only person who would assume Jon knows anything about reek is Ramsey thinking they ran to the wall.
If Bran is eventually King because he is the memory of the world, then Nan held those memories and passed them to him until he could reach Bloodraven.
Edit: nevermind I commented before the end of the video. I agree with you. :Edit
It wasn't Stannis. It would completely go against his character. It may have been someone from his camp but not him.
I suspect it was Mance Raider after infiltrating Winterfell and getting access to Ramses seal. I'm not sure what exactly his game plan is but I think it was him.
Im Sorry but i want to ask something unrelated to this Video; am i just stupid or is the playlist about Roberts Rebellion no more? I recently wanted to rewatch it but couldnt find it, is there a reason?
Even though I only watched the show and didn't read the books, it seemed like things were too convenient for Melisandre and I always suspected she played a role in Jon's death. The show made it feel obvious.
love your videos! wish they were longer than 14 minutes
Robert does 2.5-4 hour livestreams / deep dives on his live channel IDG Live most weeks. And some of his older content used to be 30-60 minutes the non-live vids. So seems like he is changing it up with much of the new content or redone versions of videos he has done before , like this one.
I love the videos too, but they only need to be as long as necessary. IMO, shorter works better. He can always do add-ons and follow-ups.
This letter is so impossibly evil that I freaking love it. The language is perfect. Things like these are why George is such a good writer, he immerses himself in a character and he's able to think like them; in a way, those characters are alive, inside George's head, but very much alive.
It's even written in a brutalist way, with short scentences, with no room for interpretation and stating supposed facts that make Ramsay seem like a force of nature, someone not to be messed with. Of couse we don't know how much of this is true or even who wrote it of course, but it's written (by the true author, Ramsay or not) as if Ramsay had written it.
I was first thinking littlefinger, but then it hit me: wouldn't he try to set Jon and Stannis against each other, rather than bring them into an alliance?
While using Stannis's ambition get rid of Ramsay would serve littlefinger's aims in short term, in long term there's a possibility of grateful north emerging to support Stannis's claim. Littlefinger is out to get it all, and getting rid of one obstacle and replace it with a huge one doesn't bode well for those plans. It would be far better for him to keep Jon away from Stannis.
So Melissandra seems far more likely candidate.
Another great video, buckets