BOOK COMMUNITEA: TIKTOK TURNING PUBLISHING INTO FAST FASHION? SIMON & SHIEN?! [CC]
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ย. 2023
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Hey hey! I saw this article and had to talk through my thoughts. Do you think TikTok is to blame for the decline in quality in books?
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I don't think TikTok is solely to blame. I think Publishing's greed is to blame. It's less about the craft of writing and EDITING and more about pushing out books as cheaply as possible to make the most money as possible. It's sad! I knew that Iron Flame was gonna suck because there is NO WAY she was gonna make a quality Fantasy book in 5 months. NO WAY! It honestly makes me nervous to read Divine Royals and Ruthless Vows. I haven't read Fourth Wing and don't plan to but I'll say this: if you have the time to write two books in a year and promote them, you have time to research and learn the pronounciations of the language you are using.
Fourth Wing wasn't good either. This is someone who clearly did no research, didn't develop the world well, established flat characters in this world full of plot holes and again in the spirit of SJM and others of her ilk spackled the hell out of the world with sex. It's just dragons instead of fae. If we want better products then people have to stop buying the bad crap they're churning out. 🤔 Don't forget too, that Tik Tok content creators make money, in part, from views so they have a vested interest in getting clicks-not necessarily giving honest feedback. Not to mention the ones that get paid for their reviews or get sent free stuff. You can't count on honesty from them, necessarily either. If you pay for my dinner and it wasn't my favorite, but it was Free; I'm probably going to still give you a pretty good review. I think people need to understand that it's a business for many of these Tik Tok creators and they're not "your friends". They're going to make the best decisions for them and their business so if that means promoting the same 20 books as everyone else then so be it. Buyer Beware
Not defending any books or authors, but do think there is an issue with publishing. I think having good editors to push back on and help get your vision across is important. While we celebrate or criticize the author, there are other people involved in the creation of a story. I also think what your five star and what my five star is may be different of course. I’ve had a really hard year so I have read some not great on plot boos that still entertained me. As an English major nerd I fell back in love with reading after college after I joined a book club and could actually have discussions which I think can be lacking in the book hauls and craziness.
Rebecca Ross usually writes both her books in a duology before they are published so the second one won’t be written fast just published sooner
@@danielleoliver1734 oh that’s a relief! Thank you for saying that
I think KU should take the majority of blame on this one. Amazon's model of "if you don't pump out 6 books a year you'll become obsolete" started this years ago. Amazon prioritizes their KU books over everything else, essentially forcing authors into it if they want to eat while writing. TBH anyone who pays for the subscription should just accept that you get what you pay for and the consequences of it. While most KU books are languishing in Amazon hell, some are outselling even big name writers from trad pub. Which is why people keep feeding the beast.
Gosh, yes, this is such a great way to describe how the "trendy" books have felt lately. Authors are pumping them out so quickly, exploiting sudden interest in "hot fae" or "greek retelling" or whatever the flavor of the week is, and none of these books appeal to me because they feel so flavor of the week. There's the occasional gem, but I particularly avoid spaces like TikTok where the way people talk about books reminds me of the beauty world, and the fashion world... Its all about what looks good and gives quick satisfaction. All about consume consume consume, what's new, what's hot... Can tell a lot about some of the accounts that never talk about a book over a year old. It doesn't sit right with me :/
Same here. I can’t stand the “booktoker” aesthetic. Its leading to cheaper and cheaper work and sapping fiction of meaningful or even competent books
@@sciencefantastic Exactly. I don't want to begrudge people being excited about new releases or even being excited about special editions for books they love, but the focus is becoming all about the aesthetic... People buying books for how pretty they are, inspiring FOMO and irrational spending in others, collecting books just to sit on their shelves unread... It speaks so much of the beauty industry pushing collection of make up that will never get used--but at least books never go bad. I want people to be able to do what makes them happy, but it's a trend in what people think is important that I'm not a fan of, especially because of how the publishing industry is exploiting it. These accounts are just feeding the fire :/
@@lieslherman Currently I’m reading Divine Rivals and the book feels like it’s about that trend. It’s so inoffensive and just lacking in any other elements besides A Dynamic and Enemies to Lovers (but not really) it’s boring
@@sciencefantastic I know what you mean. I read DR and liked it okay, because you're right--theres nothing *wrong* with the book. It's perfectly fine. But it's like it doesn't take any risks, to make sure it has as broad appeal as possible. Barely any world building, very minimal conflict, very plain personalities... It definitely felt like it was just ticking boxes. And don't even get me started on Fourth Wing... 🤣 Very similar vibe, though at least DR has good prose. I'm so mixed because I'm glad people are reading at all, and loving these books, but my hope is all the money coming in from them help fund less popular books who take more of a chance and have a bit more... Soul.
@@lieslherman well if it’s any consolation I’m working on a gender-flipped Beauty and the Beast retelling meant for young audiences which I hope I wrote with a lot of soul. It’s working title is Blue Rose and Raven.
Plus I’m also working on a full rewrite of the ACOTAR trilogy as a dark fantasy epic because geez those books made me so mad I decided to channel that anger into something productive. If anything, I’m going to fill the niche of fantasy that has a heart and soul even if it’s not perfect or groundbreaking.
I work at an indie bookstore and the Iron Flame release was the worst 3 weeks of work I’ve experienced. First Macmillan told us that our orders of Iron Flame (which we placed in JUNE) were all cancelled. We’d had many preorders and were panicked for about a week. We ended up getting some from our supplier, and then Macmillan magically “found” our order and sent it to us. Many of them arrived damaged with badly sprayed edges, covers on upside down, etc.
And now, after Indie bookstores pulled it off for Rebecca Yarros, she’s cut a deal with Amazon to republish all of her original romance novels as Amazon exclusives. We are all PISSED.
I have seen so many bound upside down in the German Translation it's become a joke to post your preorder and guess If its upside down😅
NOT AMAZON EXCLUSIVELY WTFFFF
Fast fashion is just about overconsumption, low quality items, and poorly finished items. Books are very much heading that way. Plus there’s a focus on fast fashion being cheaper and faster for production- which we see in the lack of resources being put into developing and refining books.
As an Irish person I want American fantasy writers to just leave us alone 😭
Im actually doing an Irish/Scottish native author reading challenge next year.
@@authorhalierivers love it! my best rec is savage her reply, a feminist retelling of the legend of the children of lír!
Same from Scandinavia (even though Swedish/Norwegian ect are not marginalised languages). Some authors don't even seem to google the words, or think you can just put two words togheter without understanding that sometimes this changes the meaning or affects the grammar. We get it, you have a thing for vikings...but at least use google translate before you start trowing scandinavian words around (or letters you clearly dont know how they are pronounced- ø/ö is NOT a English o!)
I read a fantasy book based on lore from the mid southern United States based in the United States and it was so refreshing
@@wanderer4775What was the fantasy?
I'm glad someone spoke up. These are *living languages.*
you said “reading is what?” and my gay ass yelled “FUNDAMENTAL” 😭😭
YES THAT TOO 😆
Thanks for talking about the scottish gàidhlig situation, I haven’t read fourth wing yet but it is on my shelf. As a Scot who speaks Gàidhlig I find it irritating that they see our dying language as something purely fantastical that they can use. Yes the language has a magical feeling to it but it should be respected. Our language was banned by the English and as a result very few of us speak it now. I am glad to see gàidhlig anywhere but spreading false pronunciations is purely miseducation. Laughing off the mispronunciations is ignoring the dark history of the language. Anyway, tapadh leibh 💙
I think what was even stranger, the narrator for fourth wing, was not even Scottish. That alone would have changed the tone of the book.
Rebecca Yaros is behaving like a coloniser, it's wild to watch it unfold.
😳
i would’ve thought that if an author wanted to borrow words/names from an actual real-life language, the bare minimum is double checking the pronunciation?? or like, having a character on-page giving the phonetic pronunciation if they insist on their own pronunciation?? I think the reason why Gaelic is mistreated this was is that it’s seen as a lesser/‘white person’ language (HEAVY quotes on that bc indigenous European languages have an incredibly interesting and sad history with being whitewashed and erased in general by English/romantic language speakers - Welsh children used to be beaten in schools for speaking Welsh when Wales was first colonised (also there are native irish, scot and welsh language speakers that are not white and the perception is pervasive and racist - real-life languages aren’t toys for fantasy authors to play with)) and considered free-game to butcher
To be fair, this is INCREDIBLY common in the fantasy genre. For instance, Mistborn names are French-inspired. Brandon has said he doesn't care how they're pronounced and doesn't think readers should either. He didn't mean it maliciously. His take is one many authors have which is that readers should pronounce things however they want, regardless of the real language things are pulled from.
@@brees3 As a Hindi speaker, I'd be kind of annoyed at people just stealing words they like from our language and sometimes changing the meaning of it. They can still do it, of course. But why culturally appropriate instead of making things up for a fantasy? You can make up a fantasy language, too.
@@sakurablossoms94 I agree! My comment was less in support of the practice and more saying, Rebecca is one of many and this has been a normalized practice forever and we should be confronting publishers that are allowing it, not just one author.
I’m seeing more and more people doing huge book hauls and then later doing huge unhauls, including many brand new books never read, even special editions of books they have never read. People are treating them as more disposable than we used to. I don’t know how people can afford that. Even though I mostly thrift books or buy them on clearance, I still overbuy. It’s gotta hurt so much more if you bought a fancy hardcover for full price and then hated it. The consumerism is not good. If people keep buying these poor quality books, the companies will keep cutting corners 😢
I thought it was strange that the author of the article drew a comparison to fast fashion, but didn’t really talk about the ethical implications of the physical production of these products. Online book spaces have always had an issue with consumerism (like think about all the book hauls and aesthetic background shelves on TH-cam), but the acceleration of publishing timelines (due partially, probably, to the influence of booktok) concerns me because producing books isn’t a fast process. I think the poor quality of the iron flame releases speaks to the fact that we can’t ask people to push out these products en mass on such a short timeline.
But I really liked the article’s discussions about the ethics of developing a book’s contents, and appreciated your commentary as well. I think you’re right that reading is subjective and no book will ever be perfect for every reader, but I would say that as readers, we naturally want our characters to feel real, the story to be coherent and logical and satisfying, and for there to be some kind of theme as well, and I do think we’ve see a decline in some of these elements being prioritized in publishing as the industry tries to quickly cash in on tropes and trends
The Ya paranormal boom, followed by the YA dystopia boom, followed by the YA fantasy boom. It’s not new, the newest thing is the millions of special editions not the trend chasing and pushing
5:12 Okay, my guess, when she says that TikTok has turned publishing into fast fashion, is that she means the way books get posted and talked about on TikTok spreads yet moves and cycles so quickly that the most popular book ‘last week’ would now be “out of fashion” or too old news to talk about ‘this week’…or something like that.
It could possibly also be added that whatever the most popular book of the week is was made rather quickly to fit whatever trope or theme was also popular at the time…and therefore not made very well (writing, editing, etc.)…much like fast fashion clothes
@@Syd_in_Pinkyes. My take too!
Yeah, made quickly, cheaply, and poorly.
I actually blame the rise of tropes over plots and not plots just having tropes in them. Publishers sell books as just tropes and not an actual plot
The speed at which Iron Flame came out felt like trad publishers trying to compete with indie/self publish authors. There's such thing as a fast release in self publishing where you either write the series ahead of the first book being published, or are organized enough to do it as you go. That doesn't mean the author is cutting any corners though. The book is still seeing beta readers and an editor before publishing. Its just that if organized well, there should be no holdups, like editor or cover artist availablity. This means they might be publishing two or three books in a year.
Trad is a different beast, and I'm not sure its built to do this kind of turn around on a fantasy series of all things.
Exactly! ❤
Completely agree. With the more mainstream acceptance of romance as a popular genre, and with trad publishers trying to get their cut, they've slipped into tactics typically reserved for self-publishing (less editing, quicker turnaround)
I forgive a lot of the issues I find in self-published books or fanfiction because there was only one person behind most if not all of it and their work is usually born from passion, not greed. I hold traditional publishing to a completely different standard.
Actually, fast release in self-publishing is writing almost a book a month. (There are a LOT more authors doing this than most people realize.) An indie author who only writes 2-3 books a year is considered "slow." lol. (Usually only big names or TT darlings can get away with releasing so little like that.) But without the various red tape and hurdles of traditional publishing houses, it's much, much easier to write and release quicker for a self-published author!
I'm no expert on this subject by any means, but I've actually heard the opposite. a professor of mine told us that in self publishing, finding editors, formatters, beta readers, cover artists, etc usually takes even more time than it does to complete the writing process itself. I suppose once an author has found a team they can rely on, maybe they can just reuse them so they don't have to keep finding new freelancers all over again for each book, but idk. it probably also depends on the format--publishing ebooks vs publishing print books, etc. people can upload ebooks on kindle really easily for instance
@@sleepyghostgirl Yes, I think the first time finding the right people is a little bit challenging but producing a print book is actually just as easy as an ebook. There's Print On Demand services through Amazon, Ingram, and Draft2Digital. I've been at this for about fourteen years so it's very easy for me to do the production part of the books at this point!
H&M etc. are definitely fast fashion. It's about the speed of how quickly new items are rolled out and how they're produced. Shein and the likes are ultra fast fashion.
TikTok is pushing people to want things faster, but leave no lasting impression. Kind of like fast fashion?
I agree with most things said however, I don’t agree with the “books are subjectively good or bad” idea entirely. I think there is a such thing as a book being poorly written and a book being well written. I think the issue is that people believe that just because they like a book (or feel defensive over a book) that the book is well written when that’s not mutually inclusive. There are books that I like that I know are not very well written just as there are many books I didn’t like and that were excellently written. That’s like saying just because you like Burger King that it’s high quality. Disclaimer: there’s nothing wrong with liking something that is not high quality or disliking something that is high quality. All books serve a purpose in my eyes.
As far as the fast fashion idea goes, I completely agree that traditional publishing is operating like fast fashion from the way they treat their workers all day down to them not caring about fully developing a book because they know people are going to eat it up regardless (basically a cash grab). I wish publishing was just better at marketing/developing books better instead of just looking for their next cash cow.
I read so so many books from foreign authors (Chinese/Japanese/Korean) both novels and comics and I just now realized that most American Authors REALLY DON'T have a glossary. Rick Riordan I know has a glossary. Fantastic video Jess!
It's come to the point I'm reading my backlist on my shelves because they are better edited than newer releases. Less chance of being dissapointed.
I think editing, to the lack there of, is the biggest issue right now. Some books feel like it’s the second draft going out, not a copy that has been edited and refined multiple times and bulked up where they need and trimmed in other sections to make a satisfyingly paced and plotted work
Personally, I don't believe that any Fantasy Novel Series should have a yearly release. Fantasy is a genre that takes years and years of planning and plotting and trying to get the pacing right. It's not a type of book that can be shat out at the same rate as Romance Novels or General Fiction novels. With Fantasy it needs time to cook, if that makes sense... You need to perfect the world, the magic, and lore. I've seen the videos were people were thinking Iron Flame was being Ghost Written or even written by AI, and while I have not read the series to tell the difference between the books... I can say from a writers side of things, there's no way that one person could simply write, and then re-write and then do edit works etc, all in less than a year. I'd much rather wait years in between books so the author can give their best work possible, instead of being fed the bottom of their barrel writing.
Yeah, it’s a bit odd when an author uses another language in a book but can’t bother learning at least the pronunciation.
I’m writing a fantasy book with hints of our own world and have two characters who speak other languages other than English. One is half Korean, but I know very basic Korean and can read Korean easily now (just don’t ask me to translate yet). His Korean name is 하늘 권 or Haneul Kwon in Romaji.
Then I have Prisha who speaks Hindi. I’m currently trying to learn Devanagari (their alphabet)
Will I need to use the languages often? Probably not, but I think it’s important to learn, and I find it beautiful to immerse ourselves in these languages and cultures that we write about. Rebecca Yarros seemed to use it more because it sounded cool.
These types of books always remind me of fast food (vs. food-food), but fast fashion is a great analogy, too. And it's not just the grammar, spelling, and punctuation errors, but the quality of the actual books is just suckier. Cheap covers, thin pages, weird margin settings, bad bindings, etc. I get that printing is expensive and books need to stay affordable, but given how publishers treat authors and their lower-paid employees (and have apparently fired all the copy editors), I'm pretty sure they could do better.
Never thought of them like fast food but that makes sense too!
A great way to find book recommendations outside the 'fast publishing' algorithm is through indie book stores! Even if you don't have one local, many keep websites and publish articles with recommendation lists. I've found many gems via my local book club. I also find that checking out different awards shortlists/longlists are another way to find recommendations. You just need to do a little trial and error to find what suits your tastes! For instance, I've found that of the celebrity book club lists, 'Read with Jenna' has had a lot of hits for me, while Oprah has not. I like a lot of the Pulitzer winners, while I'm less likely to enjoy a Booker Award read. I like the fantasy genre so I keep an eye on the Hugo Awards. Relying more on the community and less on the algorithm is the way to go :D
I would argue Book of the Month and other book monthly subscriptions can fall under fast fashion - not too far off from FabFitFun and IPSY
I definitely can see that with the sub boxes and all their trinkets. Some are quality but a lot is plastic that I doubt people keep
I don't think TikTok is the reason, but I do think it's a contributing factor. I think they saw how big some books and authors could get on TikTok that they started using it as an acquisitions model (rather than just as a marketing tool) to acquire and pump out as many trendy books as they could as fast as they could.
I buy more and more used books so I don’t contribute to this fast fashion trend or loop 🔁 we’re in!
Me too!! Thrift books has taken so much of my money but it’s so worth it like I bought a 35 dollar book for only 9 dollars a couple of weeks ago
Simon and Shein had me CRYING 💀💀 But keke's aside, I agree that publishing's "fast fashion" model is absolutely gearing towards more profits for the top tier in those companies but I also wonder how this is translating to pressure on authors to pump out these books only for publishers to turn around and serve the public the 2nd draft with a foil cover and sprayed edges 😩 And what I'm not seeing is these profits being put into paying authors in a timely manner so they can AFFORD to keep writing or paying editorial staff to make these books their best version so tl;dr publishing rather stay raggidty I guess... 🤷🏽♀️
I don't feel like we can talk about books in a fast fashion sense without mentioning James Patterson, pumping out terrible stories and slapping his name on anything to sell
Isn't he also known to use ghost writers?
I was actually just thinking about this today! I really wish there were more creators that focused on backlist books and completed series. It's not a perfect comparison, but the solution to fast fashion is slow fashion/mindful consumerism so why don't we try something similar in the book world? Stop book hauls, stop marketing books (review them yes, but we all know most of this content is straight up marketing), stop reviewing books before reading them, etc. Publishers are partially to blame, but they are nothing if not opportunistic and they will not go where there is no money.
I need to get back to the backlist bc front list has not been giving me what I want
Beach reads are fine but god can’t I just read something substantive that isn’t old as hell?! I felt this, explained my personal beef with the current trend of publishing perfectly! 👏👏
Classics are classics for a reason. They take patience to get through but it is very worth it.
So many fantasy authors just say something like “oh dragon words are unpronounceable by human mouths so the dragons use human language names” which i know seems lazy on the surface but considering how different human and dragon anatomy is it makes enough sense that I don’t understand why she didn’t just do that if she’s not willing to learn a real language properly or develop a conlang. She hand waves so much of the world building but in the one case where hand waving it would’ve been fine, she chose to cause a problem instead.
You are so right about recaps in sequels and pronunciation guides and you should say it.
I think it's harder to find the good stuff now, but it's also because publishing is so much more accessible now to the wider population than it used to be. And I'm not sure that's a bad thing. I also think that a lot of the 'fast fashion' books are aimed at teen girls and young women, which is an often maligned group. Tastes change as we age and I think some of the backlash is that people have shifted out of the target audience and haven't found where the books for their current tastes are yet but have recognized what they were reading isn't for them anymore.
People are going to come for me but I actually think part of the puzzel is indie publishing. Hear me out, with indie pub we got more stories yes, but many times the authors did not have the resourses to go through traditional editing (understandable, it damn expensive). Which means that there was less focus on that aspect/skill of writing a book, which is actually super important. And we as readers accepted the change because we wanted those stories and we loved the authors. But that showed the big publishing houses that they could aslo cut cost by having less editing/devloping, save time and personal. Which has changed the pub ind and the books being published. I know that many really like the style of writing that is popular now, more close to fan fic. But for me personally, there are so many books that I have picked up becouse of the plot, the idea, the characters, the world, and then been super disappointed becouse of the execution. Like I can see that it could have been great if worked on more! Yes obviously this is subjective but writing a book is hard and many times it is made better having people to support and challenge you. To help you not only write your idea down but make it come alive. That's what a good editor does. I think there are som many stories and author that deserves better, and I want to read their stories when they are at their best. So no not only TikTok, and it started before booktok got big, according to me.
Ugh! Yes! That’s what I REALLY want to do this coming year is utilize my library PRIOR to buying books! Voting with your dollar is the best way to get back to the quality stuff we’re all looking to read. Plus, library love!
Simon and Shein 😂😂
Pretty much 😆
Machandmillan
I think BookTok has contributed in a way that has just made it more... Acceptable, I guess, for publishing to skimp on quality and just go for quantity. "Aesthetic" and commodity have become such a problem in publishing and it's to the point where I just have a select couple of authors I will auto-buy and shun the rest. Like, bookstores are barely fun for me anymore simply because I have to wade through so much BS to find good stuff. It's frustrating. We want GOOD books!!!!!
I am not really a fan of what Tik Tok has done for some books. Because I think it has had a more negative aspect than positive in many ways. I rarely trust a Tik Tok rec these days because I just expect a low quality story. Its why I don't really read the big hyped books anymore. It just doesn't deliver the quality in my reading I want to see. We are rushing books out too quickly. I actually trust the underrated authors or books a bit more. Some of the best books I have read this year aren't really authors that will sell out on Amazon lol I am not sure if it was the rise of book tok though. I actually think it started with the rise of illustrated books. Which was around 2018-2019 is when that started. That is when I feel like publishing and literature really started to shift to dramatic proportions. That's just my personal take though. Fast Fashion I would say refer to instant gratification on pulling readers in on certain aspects but has little depth to the story. Your tree is gorgeous!
Speaking of language, after learning Hindi I realized that a lot of the “alien” words in Star Trek came from there.
Star Wars does something similar w borrowing from Asian and African cultures too. People don't realize Obi is an African name and their only association w/it is Obi-Wan lmao
I genuinely enjoyed fourth wing but I feel like iron flame is the Shein of books. If Yarros had let that book have any time to be edited and to truly think about what she included it would either be 2 separate books or 200 pages shorter
Man why can't a reference section in a book that references and uses different words in different languages be mandatory so situations like this can be avoided?
When I finished Bram Stokers Dracula my penguin clothbound classic had an actual dictionary section describing all the unknown words in the characters letters written to one another; which I really appreciated. When it comes to publishing a book it should be doubled checked to make sure everything runs smoothly so situations like this can be avoided. Just my 2 cents. 🙂❤📚
I don't think TikTok is specifically to blame, but more the general rise of "influencer" culture, which definitely existed before 2020 but I think has really surged since.
I think the languages thing is kind of a separate issue. I've not read them, but I've seen similar criticism for the Russian/Slavic terms in the Grishaverse. I feel like it's a more cultural problem of (usually) white (usually) north american authors who feel safe using celtic, gaelic, norse, slavic, etc. influences because they are perceived as 'white' cultures in america, but are ignoring the actual depth of those cultural identities
"Me and grammar, never been friends" 😂❤ Girl, I feel you!👏
I gotta keep it a buck😆
I never thought about booktok as fast fashion but that’s extremely accurate? I’ve been reminding people left and right of libraries. I’ve also refused to buy books until I get through some TBR. If I see a book I like, I’ll add it to my Amazon wishlist to go back on once I have minimized my library into books I plan to re-read/keep. Also thriftbooks - focusing on buying used books and not new. That’s been my goal this year
Honestly, as a Slavic speaker, this is nothing new & has been happening not only with smaller marginalized languages. If anyone from a Slavic country got a dime for any time Ivan is pronounced as Ai-van, we'd all be rich. All of our names get re-invented in English. Also, how come no one is speaking out on all the Russian Mob books with all the cringy Russian mispronounciations 😅.
If Rebecca Yarros uses a language she doesn't speak, she should definitely do her due diligence in researching and approaching the use of it as respectfully as possible, meaning that she should use it as gramatically correct as possible. I also agree she should have a native speaker train the narrators to pronounce the words correctly. But I don't want to go as far as criticizing her for mispronouncing the words herself, she doesn't speak the language. She also apologized for her pronounciation, so on that point let's just give her a break. Now on the point of the book industry resembling fast fashion ... I've worked in sales most my life & have learned that mass market products will always have a wider reach, so it's very natural within this business that the more palatable the book, the easier it is to sell/hype up. Imo it's a tale as old as time, the demand will determine the type of products that will flood the market, so it's not only the book industry that determines the hype. Marketing teams obviously have plenty to do with it, but let's not fool ourselves and make it as if readers haven't been devouring these books as soon as they come out. Also, fast fashion is considered wasteful and damaging. I wouldn't say the same when it cones to books. I am happy people (especially the younger generation) are influenced to start reading nowadays, because it may start with 1 booktok book, but who says that person won't start reading on the regular in a more diverse way because of a 1 minute tiktok they've seen lately?! As an example, how many people back in the day started reading because of the 50 shades trilogy, but then because of it they discovered they unwind by reading. So they may start with 50 shades, but after that start to discover so many more books that are of 'better quality'. It's a long and multi faceted topic & my wandering thoughts have taken me everywhere haha, sorry 🙈
As a Hindi speaker and someone who has read books with Indian characters, there's usually a glossary.
Not to say this isn't happening in other genres, but I do feel like Fantasy and Fantasy Romance (Adult and YA) are the biggest offenders of this "beautiful books, no substance" and speeding things out. I think that publishing is to blame - squeezing everyone at the bottom including the consumer.
Romance definitely has special editions and some questionable stuff being published, but from what I see, a lot of the special editions are AFTER something has been published and gained a following. For example, Casey McQuiston and Alexis Hall getting special editions from afterlight/illumicrate.
Not everything has to be ready to be longlisted for the Booker prize but -- from traditional publishing - editing, copy editing, sensitivity reading, and pronunciation guides should be BARE minimum.
The more I hear about Ms. Rebecca, the less interested I am... woof.
I see following trends and hype as a sign of immaturity. With life experience (being burned many times by things that did NOT live up to the hype) you learn it's not worth it.
I saw a creator do an interview, which basically said people are blindly buying book boxes and no longer going to stores to discover new reads/authors organically anymore. I felt that, and I am considering reducing the number of book boxes I get. I don't think I can eliminate them all because FOMO, but I want my reads to be more about the story then the cover.
when you brought up the point of adding previous book summaries at the beginning of new installments in a series as well as the pronunciation guide, i immediately thought of eragon. ik it's not the greatest fantasy series out there but it has both of them and i just that was really neat.
So does game of thrones
The thing with the fast fashion comparison.... I get why that comparison is being made but it's just not comparable. The ethical issues behind fast fashion are not simply that the quality is bad (which is the main critique of "fast" publishing), it's that fast fashion is utilizing slave labor/child labor and fast fashion textiles are contributing to 10% of all carbon emissions (not to mention the noxious materials that are killing the environment in other ways)
To me, the main issue with "fast publishing" is that we're seeing a brand new publisher, Red Tower, fail fast. I hope they (and Rebecca for her part) learn and do better. Another issue is that we're seeing self-publishing go head-to-head with traditional publishing in a real way for maybe the first time ever. And traditional publishing is trying to keep pace with a format that typically is less edited and comes out more frequently than traditionally published books.
Now that I think about it, I wonder if Amazon played a big part in this. I’ve heard from authors that the algorithm that promotes books wants a lot of books put out consistently and longer paged books. That has to have affected the publishers and writers.
i wouldn't say this is TikToks fault completely, it's basically what happened in the beauty community as well. Started off getting 1-2 releases a year that you really looked forward to to multiple palettes pushed out in a summer. It's really sad and it makes me really nervous as we see more and more authors pushing out books so quickly. A lot of the popular books are just pushed out works of mess.
I remember seeing that first TikTok and losing the little desire I had to read Fourth Wing. I thought "fast fashion" meant "popular without merit." I agree, EVERY fantasy book needs a pronunciation guide, and every book in a series needs a synopsis.
Two additional thoughts about fast fashion and this trend in publishing. I always think of fast fashion as being particularly harmful and exploitative of the people making the thing and of the environment in general. I wonder how much people know about publishing supply chains and whether these books are being made in places where there is sweatshop labor, slavery, and/or human and environmental exploitation happening.
Fast fashion is also known for being unethical and having poor quality, so I get the reference.
And derivative, which is undeniably true for TikTok books.
It’s such an interesting comparison to compare publishing to fast fashion. Now do I think it is happening because of Tik Tok, I don’t know but I’m leaning towards no. I feel like even before Tik Tok people were writing to trends. I’m thinking like the twilight book era, or the hunger games/divergent books that came out. I do think it’s worse now with how fast these publishers are trying to push it out. I almost wonder if the rapid publishing some indie authors do have contributed to this, especially in the romance space.
I can listen to Jess talk about anything.. just a funny person
🥰
those candles!! the sparkle! ❤️ ✨️
Cool candles at the beginning! I love smelling candles and they sound lovely. I've absolutely noticed the fast fashion comparison with books, as well. A lot of emphasizing tropes like fads.
Oooh love the sweatshirt!
As a fashion and book enthusiast who is working to curb my consumption habits thank you for this video on the parallels between the two industries. The two things on its own couldn’t be more different but the way they are mass made and consumed are very similar
Absolutely loving this video, Jess ❤
YES JESS you nail it as always
Great video! 👏 I loved Fourth Wing too! It was not perfect but so much fun! Exactly what I needed at the time.
Agree!! But also….not me SCREAMING ✨fundamental✨ when you said reading is what..? 😂
🤣🤣🤣
I do think BookTok has contributed to the lack of quality in books. When something is marketed by tropes instead of other elements it’s easier to ignore flaws in writing and characterization. I love tropes too but I don’t care if there’s only one bed if I don’t have feelings about the two people in it and their relationship
I actually saw several TikTok’s where the German edition was shown and it was literally printed upside down. So they took the dust jacket off and opened the book the right way but then the „fourth wing“ sign on the spine was upside down. I hope you know what I mean. And this edition is a special edition for literally 33€ (so 35$) which is a Lot of money. Now a lot of comments were understandably concerned that their copy is going to arrive in the same condition.
I’m in the book community since 2016 and the way TikTok changed the game is CRAZY. In Germany sprayed edges, special editions and book boxes were rare! Now you go into a bookshop and there are so many books with at least sprayed edges. (I have 5 books with sprayed edges… that’s it! And honestly I don’t give a fuck about it anymore because it’s nothing special back then it was but now it’s not sorry✌🏻)
BTW no shame to anyone who likes sprayed edges etc. and buy books like this frequently. Like I said I like them too but it’s not that special anymore. 🤷🏼♀️
Fascinating conversation. Love your videos!
I know a lot of Black American fantasy writers are catching strays for no reason, lol!
I picked up Fourth Wing because you were the first person who didn't just crap all over it. It turned out to be a fun read, like a deliciously messy burger in book form.
My guess about what fast fashion could be referring to in terms of books is something you discussed a while back with the "beautiful gowns" thing with all these new/debut books that probably needed more editing getting multiple special editions and also maybe the poorly made Iron Flame special editions
there can be well written campy books
I find more of a correlation between the ease in self-publishing online and the lack of quality. Wattpad, KU, etc. has made it easy for authors to get their work out there WHICH IS GOOD. Don’t get me wrong, ease in publishing is GOOD. But when they’re picked up by major publishers or going to be physically printed (especially special editions), they need way more care taken with edits.
I've been feeling this for years and I'm glad I'm not the only one. It's so hard to find quality books that I spend most of my time searching for what to read next than actually reading.
I'm using the Icelandic language in my novel and this has encouraged me to make sure I learn the proper pronunciation for every single word I use
Same here, I have a lot of names in my novel from, or inspired by, a lot of different backgrounds. I definitely want to make sure I'm pronouncing them correctly and have a pronunciation guide.
Celtic languages are REALLY hard. If you’re not going to try and learn about it, then don’t use them.
I wrote an Irish historical fantasy and I put a glossary for the hardest words because it’s difficult, yes. Especially for me with multiple speech impediments, one of which where I say W instead of R. But it’s important to get it right, even if you have to say the word/s 5 times in a row until it’s correct.
I don't think tiktok is solely to blame. Publishing, especially in certain sects of publishing (*cough* YA) has been pumping out these trendy mass market books increasingly for years. Good books are still getting published but if they don't have the trendy trope, covers or character archetypes, it is basically overlooked or at the very least the publishing/marketing machine is not pushing it like it does with the trendy ones. Often, a good book will start the trend or even exist prior to it but the marketing industry has no idea what people really like about those books that are good stories. For those people who are going to consume books anyway to scratch itches, it isn't going to matter. The publishing industry will make their money and continue on their way. Those who were looking for something deeper than a money grab, might be left in the dust.
26:23 girl, what? Where was she searching? I'm a proud book snob and have never struggled to find the high brow literature I want to read. I've curated my IG feed to get only high brow posts. You get what the algorithm thinks you like fam.
I think there's always been carelessly published pulp, going back to pulp magazines and even penny dreadfuls (sometimes they didn't even bother to ensure stories were especially coherent or original lmao). And this is far from the first time fantasy has gotten appropriative with cultures the writers had no right to exploit that way. It may just be that publishers are now directing this sort of thing specifically at the social media book communities who have made things viral, which TikTok has been the best at yet. On top of the continuous effort in every industry to reduce the time, effort, and money they put into products while pumping out more.
(The one TikTok claiming to have sunk hours into searching for The Good Books does baffle me, though. Chances are, if they're able to keep up with all the TikTok trendy reads, they have access to a library, and personally, I've found so many hidden gems at the library that don't get attention in the books social media sphere. It's probably a big assumption, but still. Always irks me when folks complain that there are NO good books when they're only looking in these sorts of spaces.)
All you had to say was "over on TikTok," and I instantly roll my eyes. I do think there's a decline in writing coming from some of the popular American authors. But I won't gatekeep what someone else wants to read. This "outrage" only lasts for a season, like reading diversely was two years ago.
I think the fast fashion element is that there’s no financial incentive for the publishing industry to put good work and editing into these books, much like the fashion industry doesn’t care about the quality of clothes. What TikTok has done is hyped these books to the point that their covers are what get people interested and then they romanticize the story in the TikTok’s when the content is mediocre. Before TikTok, Instagram, FB and Twitter did this. TikTok is faster though, and publishing decided to just put out the same handful books over and over with new, fancy covers because people will buy a bookshelf worth of the same book in different covers for aesthetic. They don’t care to have decent content anymore and are even cutting out editors, because people buy them anyway. I don’t know if there’s a decent solution because it feels like the train’s left the station and it has no plan to go back. I guess writers and readers will have to do what people who want decent, ethical fashion do - find the publishers who pay editors and do pretty covers and care about content - and encourage authors, agents, and readers to go to them instead 🤷♀️.
I don’t understand how today with Google, academic and research articles available, classes (some free!) available, and in general more information available right at most people’s fingertips than ever before, how some authors and readers barely research. Sure, you might still get something wrong but most things you can get right if you take five minutes to Google.
Currently doing a read-through of The Inheritance Cycle and THEY HAVE SUMMARIES AND PRONUNCIATION GUIDES IN EVERY BOOK. So just throwing that rec out there for ya
Is that a Wicked Clothes shirt?! I am obsessed with that site 😂
Those candles are beautiful.
I think publishing has had a fast fashion problem for a long time, but the pandemic and unfair working conditions exacerbated the problem. Now every publisher wants to be on a James Patterson publishing cycle, which isn't realistic.
'Is the rise of booktok linked to the decrease in quality in books?' That's complicated, and I am writing this when you said this question so you may talk about this later in the video. Often with these circumstances it is never just one thing. That being said, Booktok does push forward easily consumerable, and yes, simple books. But what I really think is that it got to do with the format of booktok and the algorithm itself. The algorithm, like with fast fashion requires constant content. So you either read a lot in a short amount of time, or do a lot of hauls which then leads to a lot of spending and acquisition of books. Plus, you are more likely to garner attention by talking positively about popular books. So you end up buying a lot of books that you are not particularly interested in but feel pressured to get. Which is very much the case with fast fashion. But the second thing I feel like affects it is the fact that booktok is built off short quick videos. Which means to talk about a book you have to be quick and grab attention. Which not only provides very little to describe a book, but people don't want descriptions on platforms like that. So people use tropes and short terms to grab attention and advertise for a book. Which means that in terms of talking about the books things like good characterisation, development, story, themes and all this often doesn't get mentioned and falls second. Aka, everything that gives the book substance. And so, the books being pushed into mainstream are poorly done in all these areas but because it has enemy to lovers and a male morally grey love interest they become best sellers because people care about these things. Most of the time the genre isn't mentioned, nor does they talk about how other aspects may affect the trope. For example a contemporary enemies to loves with a male morally grey love interest set in an office is very different from a high fantasy war story including assassins. (That being said some people do read the premise of these stories and look into it further beyond the tropes, but there is also a lot of people that enjoys going into a book blind and getting bare bones information. At the very least these books become trending online, if not a best seller). And even if there is a genuinely well done book, or other components to said book, they won't be talked about as much as these popular tropes. If you want an example all you have to do is look at The Cruel Prince. That is often marketed as fae, morally grey, and enemies to lovers. And people zero in on Jude and Carden, and then people pick it up and discover the romance is a subplot and it is a book filled with political intrigue with the plot surrounding the politics of the court from the perspective of a mortal girl who wants to rise in power herself. Granted sometimes people mention there is political intrigue but one term compared to a list for the romance, aka enemies to lovers, dagger to the throat, morally grey, etc, it just doesn't take as a big stage with the romance element. But also does send a message that it is these elements were interested in and not the rest of, which is what gives the book substance. And it doesn't help that a lot of other platforms are trying to copy tiktok. Shorts on youtube, reels on instagram, and tiktoks literally being shared across platforms, which means it steps beyond booktok into the other areas of the online book community.
Booktok is not fully to blame, but I do think the way the app is built just simply affects how recommendations is given if not the recommendation themselves. What has really affected books is that publishing has taken notice and are constantly looking for books that will be trending on tiktok, not social media, but tiktok. So these problems I talked about in reference to a focus on tropes over substance and quality becomes a lot bigger, because they see that as more marketable than a genuinely well done book. We are not so much seeing a decrease in books, but you have to step away from the mainstream and you have to learn who to trust and how to get better recommendations, but they are less and less being in the best seller list and becoming mainstream on bookish platforms.
I can’t really blame TikTok. We live in a capitalistic society where the attitude is give it to me now, give it to me cheap and as long as the consequences don’t affect me directly and immediately I won’t worry about it too much. Industries have been heading this way for a long time. Fashion and books are simply the first. Maybe TiTok did help the book industry along, but from where I sit; it was going to happen eventually anyway.
Wasn't aware that it was distributed by MacMillan. Red Tower & Entangled being a potential part of it is surprising.
Agree that good books are getting hidden under other books. Reading is subjective so keeping that in mind. I feel like social media wasn't a requirement for authors before but now it is. It becomes a squeeze for attention on the book that might not occur unless it gets hyped.
Book buying with all the items & special editions is a "fast fashion".
I'd love to own one copy of some of the books people have 3 different editions of.
following instructions... i think by 'fast fashion' she means books are being mass produced in low-quality for largely aesthetic reasons.
it's so bizarre to just... steal words from other languages and mispronounce them? it's a fantasy world, just keysmash.
i fully agree we need pronunciation guides in every fantasy book! and the summary at the beginning of sequels. i am BEGGING.
i think booktok is partly at fault, but people have increasingly been prioritizing the hype and aesthetics of books just due to social media in general. publishers are cashing in on whatever they can regardless of quality. it's definitely one of those things where we need to try to be more conscientious of our spending but like... it's hard not to give in to hype! and the world is such a mess, it's difficult to not give ourselves little things where we can. not necessarily an excuse, but a good reason. i have been getting of the habit of getting books from goodwill etc. (if not the library) if it's not something i know i'll love.
When it comes to language expecially from a culture you know nothing about its important to talk to others. I think a lot of authors me included take from baby book name books which is fine but I also do more resurch on that name after I pick it. I have not personally read forth wing I own the book to read at some time but I fell the hype for this like I did when Twlight came out and I am waiting to be in the right mind space not to take a book to seriously and just have fun. I do not fell like publishing cares about what the book is but if they can sale special editions and get a movie deal. I remember so many books that I have read in my teen years that were a lot better then your Vampire diares, Twilight, Mortal instruments that just dispared. I would like to go back to a time where publishing just focus on a book being a book and not what is going to come from it like merch, special editions, movies or tv shows.
Little Rock?! I lived there for almost a decade. I'll be checking out the shop!
I’m not one to turn my nose up at a beautiful book so on the one hand I am glad there is more awareness that there’s a market for these special editions with sprayed edges but I think tik tok has fed into a consumerist attitude toward books. I’m not immune. Plus I was really into the TH-cam beauty community a few years ago and the consumerism there was also so apparent with these huge makeup collections that seemed to aspirational. I definitely felt the pressure to keep up and now I have a bunch of makeup I don’t rly use anymore. I’m just seeing a pattern. I don’t want to blame the consumer too much though, and I’m glad we don’t have to settle for ugly books anymore lol. If I see another YA paranormal romance from the 2010s with a cover of just a white girl in a ballgown it will be too soon lol. Things have improved on that front at least. But it feels like the aesthetic is prioritized way more than the content these days. Maybe always. But. It feels more extreme now.
But tbh I think this goes hand in hand with Mara’s thesis from her videos that books are too long these days lol. & that they just don’t have as much editing oversight. I think a lot of editors were let go during the pandemic & the ones these days, their skills are not being fostered and they’re overworked so they’re just kinda left to dry. It’s really gross honestly it feels like with every industry they’re scaling back their workforce just so that can overextend their workers as far to the limit they can exploit them and then rake in profits. & bc they can manufacture viral ad campaigns, they really don’t have to care abt the quality of the work they’re putting out bc they can just manufacture hype instead. I also think all the negative engagement might be a feature not a bug, as much as I love a good rant review.
No, it's not Tik Tok's fault. Sturgeon's law: 90% of everything sucks. It's always been like this for every genre and every medium. "Ah but the 80s had great games/movies!" No, (general) you remember the good ones, and those good ones where the top twenty in a pile of 100 crap. Remember: booktok and booktube are mostly young women, and as we know, we aren't allowed to have nice things.
eta: for years fantasy was only Tolkien clones. And after Girl in the Train and The Woman in the Window, we had tons of thrillers that were cheap copies of those. Romanticy is just publishers' latest money maker and concentrates there. Let's stop blaming people for shady business decisions.
Oh my goodness I did not think the 80s had good media 😂 Maybe that’s from being alive then!
hi i just found your video today and I've just been binging on all the others because i love your energy. I've just been spending my Friday noon and onwards with your videos
Fast fashion is the perfect description for it.
As an author, I couldn't imagine taking from a language that wasn't my own and not looking up how to pronounce it because I do that with English words I've never heard before. That's embarrassing
I don't think it's tiktok causing books to be low quality. Just think of the 2010 mass churnout of YA fantasy/dystopia mediocre and terrible books. I think this has been a problem in publishing probably since the beginning. The good books are the ones that just continue to be talked about long after they were published. It's easy to think all past books were good when the bad ones get forgotten.
Thank you for addressing the "trashy romance" thing! Romance can be all kinds of things (and some have just as much world building and all as a fantasy--and not all fantasy is the same either) and it's so tiring that even people who read it contribute to talking down about it. To me, fast fashion is about how it's produced, not what happens necessarily on the consumer's end. This is a problem in capitalism, because big businesses will do what they can to make more money. Fast fashion is about not paying workers fairly, it's about hoarding profit at the top, it's about cutting corners in quality, it's about turning out more and more instead of focusing on fewer quality pieces made by workers who are treated and paid fairly. I try to support brands and authors I respect and I ignore hype, but that doesn't work for everyone. More importantly, it's not on individuals to change everything, because we can't, but we can influence brands and policy makers to do better when many people speak up and push for change. At least, I hope so. And, PS, some authors can produce a solid book in a short period of time, and others can't--it depends on the person, the level of support they have, and can have, and their publishing team. I wish we'd stop attaching value based on how long it took someone to write something.