Excellent program! The one video where the older, heavy-set guy explains, critiquing Charismatic beliefs, that Gods commands evolve and context is key was a perfect example of projection. There is literally NO context in scripture for the cessation of prophecy and the other charismatic gifts. The idea itself isn’t even entertained as a consideration anywhere in the New Testament. So, while having no Biblical “context” for their idea they run to sermonizing about how important it is.
I have come to realize in the past 3 years, that although there could be arguments mounted on both sides of the argument, the cessationists have to move further away from the scriptures to argue their point than the continuations have to.
Watching this thru for the second time now. Absolutely LOVE Keener and all the work he's done on helping to edify The Body. He truly has to be one of, if not the, most brilliant intelligent and Biblical minds of our time. LOVE the way he invokes Logic into his argumentation. That said, and without taking anything away from it, he is one of the folks that baffles me beyond words. I'll never understand how he and so many others can be spot on about so many things and yet then be completely off-base and miss what seemingly is obvious and true. I find this is most often the case when he does exactly what he rightly accuses the Cessationists of doing wrt Prophecy and that's reading into the text. I'm about halfway thru and feel like I must address something I addressed before in a previous video and that's the discussion about Nathan and David in 2nd Samuel. I'm gonna try to say it in a different way this time. There is a difference between a man speaking as a prophet in his role and office of being a Prophet and a Prophet speaking as a man outside his office and role. I'm convinced that is EXACTLY what happened in 2nd Samuel. I believe the text shows that Nathan was speaking as a man and not a prophet at first but then God tells Nathan to go back and speak to David as a Prophet. I'll leave it there as I pointed out evidence in the previous video that supports that case.
It's a great point Dr. Keener makes -- although he didn't put it in quite these terms -- that the objection about context revolves around the DETAILS of the gospel account, and attempting to compare it to the OVERARCHING MESSAGE in Corinthians. It really is interesting to me that my cessationist friends are typically among those who are MOST heavy-handed about 1 Cor. 14:34-35, and saying if you don't take it super-literally, you're being rebellious. So they're highly focused on this one detail as critical and long-lasting...but then turn around and reject the entire overarching point of the passage. There's something highly inconsistent about that.
Evidence that Agabus was wrong in Acts 21:11 is lacking. For starters, Paul may have been bound as prophesied when the Jews dragged him out of the temple (Acts 21:30) before the soldiers took him into custody. Even if that wasn't the scenario, it is well known that Jews served in the Roman army. There was even a Jewish garrison at Alexandria. Josephus, too, served in the Roman army. It makes sense that the Roman army in Jerusalem also included Jews, which would enable those Roman soldiers to enter the temple area, if needed, without causing a riot. It is also quite plausible that such Jewish soldiers arrested Paul before handing him over to Gentile soldiers either for the journey to Caesarea or at Caesarea. The fact that Agabus used Paul's girdle instead of a chain is of no consequence - Agabus could only use the materials to hand and his actions were symbolic. In 2 Samuel 7:1-3, it is clear Nathan was expressing his own opinion before seeking God's counsel. In 2 Samuel 7:4-16 God corrected Nathan. This passage is a clear demonstration that prophets need to distinguish between their opinions and what God says. Too many self-proclaimed prophets over the past few years have been passing off their own opinions and politics as God's Revelation. They have been exposed for the charlatans they are!
Love this. You mentioned Dr. Keener in the context of women in ministry. My church is in a season of thinking about this issue, and Mike Winger recently did modest length video where he addresses Craig's arguments and kindly critiques him with facts and logic. Is there any chance of having a "moderated conversation" on this channel between these two?
I'd say, consider The extensive work done by the New Testament Theologist on this. Hes a respected scholarly dude, don't be fooled by his age and hipserisms, the dude is SMART, and this topic is his acdemic specialilty. The controversy gets wrongly labeled a conservative vs liberal/progressive thing, but this simply isnt the case. Instead its more like conservatives agree with certain things based on their alignments, and loberals appropriate certain arguments to support their goals, but the traditional arguments on both sides contain representative perspectives in orthodoxy. Note: I'm firmly a fence sitter on this issue, I resisted Egalitarianism for a long time primarily because its associated philosophically, label wise, via feminists, with modern sexual deconstruction activism. Obviously the sexes have different roles in Gods creative design. OBVIOUSLY men and women are different and its given to men to be heads and protectors over women. So the philosophical core of complimentarianism is obviously scriptural, but how it gets applied via certain Pauline passages into overly black and white legalistic policies to completely suppress the ministry of women... that's something that there's genuine, valid egalitarian exegesis on, and its not liberal cherry picking and wishful thinking. So its wise, i think, to really give the merits a fair shake.
@@ravissary79 I have been shifting on this issue. I thought I was ending up in the camp WITH Dr. Keener in that women are in actuality not withheld from any particular title/position. However, Mike Winger's recent 11.5 hour video summarily destroyed some arguments, and exposed a sever lack of actual evidence for other arguments. Dr. Keener's argument is one which Mike demonstrated a lack of evidence to support. I would like to see evidence in support of Dr. Keeners position, and I think Mike Winger would be interesting to have party to that conversation. My current thinking is that complementarianism is the biblical position, no women in pastoral roles because she would have to teach and have authority over men. I think it is clear that women can be biblical deacons, just make sure your deacons don't teach or have authority over men and it is proper. I am willing to change if I am given better information, but I feel like it is the evidence based conclusion at this moment.
39:48 I’m sorry, but when they picked the people to be on this documentary, did they have on the list of things that you had to have is arrogance and obnoxious way of speaking
I sometimes find it hard to listen to Dr Keener on these issues when the same type of criticism could be given to him about his Egalitarian view (especially what he says at 51:26)
I agree with the Michaels here. The Spirit -- in the record of Scripture -- accurately recorded that Agabus said what he said. If Agabus was "misquoting" the the Spirit, so to speak, that's irrelevant to the fact that it's an accurate record of what AGABUS said that He said.
All these arguments provided here would be great for those in Matthew 7:22 claiming "have we not prophesied in thy name?" I hope those pseudo prophets and false converts are taking notes. Furthermore Keener's exegesis on Joel 2 is beyond pathetic. His understanding of tongues would be better if he knew nothing of this great gift.
4:51 "Take worst excesses". It should be pointed out to cessationists that Atheists do the same thing with Christianity. E.g. they will find some sort of abhorrent 'Christian' behaviour, whether it be the Crusades or the Inquisition or something more recent, and then proudly declare, "See! Christianity is just no good."
@@JBly4 wow! I'm impressed! Did you really work your way through 8:videos, before your reply? Qudos to you! I disagree that the stuff you describe is mainstream though🙂
@@JBly4As I said, I don't believe your beefs are mainstream among continualists. But even if you were right, it wouldn't prove continualism to be wrong. The crusades had mainstream backing at the time - it didn't prove Christianity wrong!
Dr. Keener, Please judge this prophetic word of edification, on the subject of free will. "Thus saith the Lord Jesus Christ, “None of My sheep have free will.” I am forever praising and believing Jesus is the Christ, and this is pleasing to God.
Re: the context of the commandment -- I just want to know what other commands from 1 Corinthians and the other epistles to the churches I can just decide are no longer relevant and, thus, ignore. I, as a woman, don't have to be under authority, I guess, or hold my peace in the church? It's cool to be unequally yoked? This just seems like a really dangerous exegetical approach, and strongly resembles liberalism.
Where in scripture does it say miracles don't produce faith? (As in have NO effect) There's several places that seem to imply the opposite, that God does big things or intervenes to reveal something about homself for people to believe.
@@ravissary79 God's great miracles through Moses filled Egypt with undeniable evidence for the God of Israel (Ex. 9:27). Yet neither the Bible nor history records Egyptian repentance, only good riddance (Ps. 105:38; Ex. 12:35-36; 14:25). Further and more dramatic, consider the effect of those tremendous miracles on Israel. God followed the 10 plagues (Ex. 7:14-12:30) done on behalf of Israel with the parting of the Red Sea (Ex. 14:21-22) and the drowning of the Egyptian army (Ex. 14:26-28). Then daily for 40 years God appeared to the entire nation as a column of smoke by day and a pillar of fire by night (Ex. 13:21-22; Num. 14:14; Neh. 9:12; Ps. 105:39). The Lord kept their clothes from wearing out (Deut. 8:4), produced water out of the Rock (Ex. 17:2-6), fed the people with angels food from heaven (Ex. 16:4-7) and brought meat on demand, literally filling their camp with quail (Num. 11:31-32; Ps. 105:40). Yet with all this, virtually the entire nation rejected God: For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? ... Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? Heb. 3:16-17 ...and in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation... was gone. Num. 32:13 Jesus did great miracles and crowds followed Him, but mostly out of selfishness. Of thousands who received His miracles, few worshiped Him. Of 10 lepers healed, only one even said thanks (Luke 17:17). Generally, Christ's miracles did not win over the crowds (Mat. 8:34; 11:20; 13:58; Mark 15:8-15; Luke 4:23-28; 8:37; 17:17; John 5:8-10; 10:25-39; 12:29-30). The Lord explained it this way: "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead." Luke 16:31 Why not? With one's eyes one may see a dead body resurrected, but faith does not come by sight. Rather, "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). So even Jesus' own city rejected its miracle-working Messiah (Mark 6:4-6). Now it’s your turn. Where in the Bible does it say that miracles produce faith?
@@garyh2100 They can. John 14:11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. I am forever praising and believing Jesus is the Christ, and this is pleasing to God.
@@robertcoupe7837, yes, there are a very few examples of people choosing faith in the Bible despite seeing miracles. But, “we walk my faith not by sight,” “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.” “Faith… is the substance of things not seen.”
In I Kings 22, a court prophet named Zedekiah said "Thus saith the Lord" and prophesied the defeat of Syria. Apparently Ahab had replaces the hundreds of prophets of Baal with yes-men who would claim prophecies came from the LORD after the people decided to serve the LORD and not Baal on Mt. Carmel. Jehoshaphat recognized the problem and wanted a to hear from a real prophet of the LORD. Ahab realized it to and called for one prophet of the Lord whose prophecy was at odds A with Jeremiah's. 'Thus saith the Lord' in a narrative section, as individuals in the video point out. ' I do not think this applies to Agabus. Paul was possibly restrained by Jews before being tied up by the Gentiles. He was bound by Gentiles in response to an issue raised by the Jews. It is also very conceivable that at some point, the Jews unbound him and sent him back to the Gentiles. The Bible does not contain every detail that occurred. I don't see a strong case for saying Nathan prophesied falsely. I think the lesson here is that prophets should be careful what they say. If the priest or someone general had told David to build the temple because the Lord was with him, we wouldn't accuse him of prophesying falsely for saying the same words. But if Nathan said it, even if he didn't attribute his ideas to God, people still consider it prophecy, especially since he mentioned the name of the LORD. Nowadays, most of us can predict some team is going to win the Superbowl. Someone could claim the Cowboys or the Falcons were going to win, and if it turned out to be wrong, he wouldn't get accused. (If the Falcons won, maybe people would call him a prophet.) But if someone with a reputation of a prophet made a human prediction, he'd likely be called a false prophet. I don't see any evidence that Elijah coached prophets to make sure they were on track. A company of sons of the prophets gathered around him.
They are. You have not experienced them but faith alone, by your choice. When one seeks after Yah, and not the gifts, the gifts will come. He still gives revelation from Scripture as well.
@@michaelmiller5024 I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. In Acts 5 the undeniable evidence of the miracles being performed by the apostles incited such jealousy in the Sadducees that they had the apostles placed in a public prison.
@@doulos9828that actually affirms my point they'd rather throw him in prison then repent. Continuationists: "Here's 2 volumes of documented miracles by Craig Keener." Cessationist: "Well we believe in miracles just not the gift of miracles and Craig's a heretic." Just keep moving the bar...
@@michaelmiller5024 you claimed the Sadducees were cessationists. But they had always rejected miracles and the supernatural power of God. So, I'm sorry but your statement doesn't make sense. And in Acts 5 it was not the authenticity of the miracles that they disputed but rather the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The legitimacy of the signs and wonders were not even called into question. The bar remains in the same position it has been - what we see proclaimed as evidence of the continuation of sign gifts in modern charismatic churches today does not pass the smell test.
I would like to point out about where it says "until the son of man comes", such as in Matthew 10 and 16... these find their finality in the transfiguration (Matthew 17, literally the next chapter) or at the crucifixion. God's kingdom comes when people are brought to penitent faith in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, resulting from putting their faith in His sacrifice on the cross. Y'all have somehow taken verses talking about the Gospel and repropriated them to somehow be talking about doing signs and wonders. Plus, Matthew 10 was instruction given specifically to the Twelve. Read the beginning of the chapter. And they didn't go thru all the towns before Jesus was raised from the dead and ascended. That's why the book of Acts exists. This video features a cataclismic understanding of Scripture that must be avoided at all costs. Also I seriously hope Keener doesn't think Daniel Kolenda is a Christian authority to listen to. If so, I would point anyone reading this to the Kozar's reaction to Kolenda's reaction to the Cessationist Documentary. Messed Up Church TH-cam channel, "Hit The Bar" episode 63.
What good are fallible prophecies tho? Thats like putting your trust in the weatherman for an accurate forecast 😅Your setting yourself up for a major disappointment with no real benefit...
@@michaelrowntree2005 I'm not sure why your comparing a sermon to a prophesy. A good sermon preached in demonstration of the power of the Holy Spirit will centralize the gospel and convict of sin, it will also challenge and edify the body. Its not someone telling you that God directly told them something and then trying to figure out if its true or not... I spent a few years in a pentecostal/charismatic church in Christian, West Virginia called Eagle Sanctuary and I've heard a lot of so called prophecies n seen a lot of ppl thinking they were speaking in tongues and also interpreting tongues... I never saw anything that looked like what I saw in the pages of scripture and when I would ask questions about them speaking in tongues or prophesying I was either given a completely nonsensical answer or was basically treated like I should sweep my questions under the rug n ignore them. I never knew of any prophecies to come true out of the many that were given.. Many times very generic prophecies were given like God says He is going to bless someone financially by the end of the month or week or whatever n something good financially would happen n ppl would think omg he is a real prophet lol I would have to roll my eyes because of how crinch it was. Tongues with the interpretation given was little more than someone speaking gibberish for a bit n then either the person speaking in tongues would give the interpretation themselves or someone else would n they would literally say things tht were straight from Scripture. I would always think to myself couldn't you have just skipped the gibberish n the church quieting down as they wait for the interpretation n making this big dramatic scene for what amounted to just a big nothing burger, when they could've just read scripture right from the get go n saved everyone the nonsense?? To be clear I don't say tongues or prophesy have ceased I've just never seen it genuinely occur and what I have seen is a bunch of nonsense. I'm skeptical of everything but willing to believe anything... I will also say that I've heard some fascinating stories from preachers who I know to be credible which convinces me that God can and does speak to His people and impresses onto their hearts for them to say or do certain things... I just don't see the value in modern day prophesy when it seems to merely keep ppl in a constant state of hopeful disillusionment, where they are hoping they were given a genuine word from the Lord only to be disappointed n let down far more often than not... I think I'd rather just stick to the more sure word that we have in scripture... I enjoy and appreciate what you guys do with your show tho. I loved your interviews with Dr. Michael Heiser, Carmen Joy Imes and Tim Mackie 😊 Craig Keener is also great...
@@michaelrowntree2005 thank you and remnant radio for your intelligent stance on the charismata. I was raised in a charismatic church for the first 13 years of my walk and the last 22+ years in a cessationist church. I began to wrestle with my experience with tongues. I am still studying it out but can confidently say I am a charismatic dispensationist. I enjoy your program. I also really enjoy my Cessassionist church because my pastor has helped me flame my deep appreciation for the word. This also is helping me stand in my continuationism. Be blessed. Love to get your notes. You should make this series a playlist!
@@graybillythekidHave you ever noticed how the so-called interpretation of tongues pretty much always comes out as a prophecy (i.e. God speaking to the church) instead of being an interpretation of someone speaking _to_ God, which is what 1 Corinthians 14:2 shows it should be: _For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God_
@@Berean_with_a_BTh every interpretation of tongues I've ever heard was literally nothing more than gibberish being interpreted by someone simply reiterating something that is already written down in scripture so the whole exercise is pointless. The Corinthian church was horribly messed up and ecstatic speech was a common practice among pagans which is eerily similar to what charismatics today call speaking in tongues. Paul seems to distinguish between a tongue (singular) as something that's not intelligible n nobody can understand what the person is saying versus tongues (plural) as intelligible languages that ppl can understand. The pagan practice of ecstatic speech was possibly something tht had crept into the Corinthian church n Paul was trying to correct it n comparing the unintelligible gibberish that's not helpful to the body and the actual gift of intelligible languages that was helpful to the body. You seem to be referencing the false idea of heavenly prayer languages. It's total bunk...
You are the ones who are infallible in yourselves because you like so much in yourselves, the prophet Samuel concerning the anointing of David was not infallible he was right, it was that he simply did not have all the sons before him, because it was the father who thought David was not eligible not Samuel, you are still in error with acts 21 you still fail to see the truth,
@@tpw7250 no I am not saying the gifts have ceased, I am saying that these people do not have the gift of healing they manipulate scripture to justify their position, because they do not understand why god heals this one and not that one, they do not heal all those who come to them, anyone can pray for someone to be healed this is not the gift of healing.
Does the passage "we know in part" mean that.... 1) we have an accurate but partial picture of God's entire plan, a correct but incomplete knowledge of God's revealed Word, or..... 2) we will always have a faulty understanding of parts of God's Word (as Graig Keener seems to believe) but we can't really know with any degree of certainty which part is known falsely or accurately. Which leads to another conundrum: how can we discern anything, including prophecy in light of Scripture if no one has the ability to accurately interpret Scripture? This view has removed any way to ever authenticate/ discern the truthfulness of anything since the measuring stick (cannon of Scripture) is also known in part! Hmmm!! Are you even sure of anything guys including your own view? Does personal experience becomes the standard of truth then?
I understand it to mean that God only reveals the prophetic picture partially, not fully. For instance, he tells Paul in Acts 16 to go to Macedonia, but the dream does not mention Phillipi (his destination in Macedonia). God gave him just part of the picture.
@@michaelrowntree2005 Got it. I appreciate that you do agree that the revealed part we know (even in part) by revelation is accurate, not inaccurate (as per your example). Wondering to what extent this would also apply to the exegesis of Scripture. Michael Brown says since we make mistakes in our understanding of the infallible Word of God, it follows we will also misinterpret words of prophecy. But it looked like Paul and Titus expected genuine believers to have the internal ability to correctly divide the Scripture and to hold on to the faith once delivered to the Saints. Is this mental gymnastics a constructed way to explain away the sad current state of affair within the hyper-charismatics prophetic movement? Let's continue to wrestle together. Blessings
@@roykhan2730 the hypercharismaticism is a problem for sure. In the same breath that I can say “misinterpreting a prophecy doesn’t make you a false prophet” I can also say “Let’s not be flippant about missing prophetic words.” The famous “prophets” who publicly predict huge events that never happen need to repent. I think Brown’s example is reasonable. True, we should rightly divide the word of truth, meaning we should be doctrinally orthodox and not teach things detached from the text. But sometimes “teaching something inaccurately” can be on a tertiary doctrine. Every believer will enter heaven realizing we got something wrong IMO. If we can expect some fallibility with God’s clear word, it is not crazy to expect similarly of prophecy, which Scripture describes as “riddles” and “dark sayings” (Num. 12). Especially when we have biblical examples of genuine believers misinterpreting the Spirit (cf. Acts 21:4). Bless you!
Why on earth does it take 8 long lectures to refute a stupid idea like cessationism??? Would you waste that much time refuting "grass is not green."? For anyone reading the scripture honestly, and understang English reasonably, it is obvious that cessationism is nonsense. Moeover, it is telling God what He is allowed to do and not allowed to do - a very bad idea indeed.
They’re not wrong. And they’re making sure they are actually dealing with every argument. They have 8 parts because they are diligent. However, I would love to hear a cessationist give a biblical argument for cessationism. And by “biblical argument” I mean that it must come from the text, and it must agree with what the text says. Not contradict the text, and not out of context.
@@JBly4 Hi friend, Thanks for your reply. I interact because I hope some level of productive conversation may emerge. I realize you disagree, but it’s my take. Thanks for understanding.
"the exegesis in the film is abysmal" Dr. Keener summed it up well.
Excellent!! LOVE Keener. His Acts Commentaries are absolutely amazing!! Highly recommend!!!
Dr. Keener is one of my admired theologians... I have almost all of his books and commentary...
Love Dr Keener. He was a guest speaker at our church conference in Cape Town, South Africa!
Excellent program! The one video where the older, heavy-set guy explains, critiquing Charismatic beliefs, that Gods commands evolve and context is key was a perfect example of projection. There is literally NO context in scripture for the cessation of prophecy and the other charismatic gifts. The idea itself isn’t even entertained as a consideration anywhere in the New Testament. So, while having no Biblical “context” for their idea they run to sermonizing about how important it is.
I have come to realize in the past 3 years, that although there could be arguments mounted on both sides of the argument, the cessationists have to move further away from the scriptures to argue their point than the continuations have to.
I've have really appreciated this series
Watching this thru for the second time now. Absolutely LOVE Keener and all the work he's done on helping to edify The Body. He truly has to be one of, if not the, most brilliant intelligent and Biblical minds of our time. LOVE the way he invokes Logic into his argumentation. That said, and without taking anything away from it, he is one of the folks that baffles me beyond words. I'll never understand how he and so many others can be spot on about so many things and yet then be completely off-base and miss what seemingly is obvious and true. I find this is most often the case when he does exactly what he rightly accuses the Cessationists of doing wrt Prophecy and that's reading into the text.
I'm about halfway thru and feel like I must address something I addressed before in a previous video and that's the discussion about Nathan and David in 2nd Samuel. I'm gonna try to say it in a different way this time. There is a difference between a man speaking as a prophet in his role and office of being a Prophet and a Prophet speaking as a man outside his office and role. I'm convinced that is EXACTLY what happened in 2nd Samuel. I believe the text shows that Nathan was speaking as a man and not a prophet at first but then God tells Nathan to go back and speak to David as a Prophet. I'll leave it there as I pointed out evidence in the previous video that supports that case.
Keener is one of the most humble scholars I’ve ever seen. He even wishes me happy birthday on Facebook every year 😊.
It's a great point Dr. Keener makes -- although he didn't put it in quite these terms -- that the objection about context revolves around the DETAILS of the gospel account, and attempting to compare it to the OVERARCHING MESSAGE in Corinthians.
It really is interesting to me that my cessationist friends are typically among those who are MOST heavy-handed about 1 Cor. 14:34-35, and saying if you don't take it super-literally, you're being rebellious. So they're highly focused on this one detail as critical and long-lasting...but then turn around and reject the entire overarching point of the passage. There's something highly inconsistent about that.
Evidence that Agabus was wrong in Acts 21:11 is lacking. For starters, Paul may have been bound as prophesied when the Jews dragged him out of the temple (Acts 21:30) before the soldiers took him into custody. Even if that wasn't the scenario, it is well known that Jews served in the Roman army. There was even a Jewish garrison at Alexandria. Josephus, too, served in the Roman army. It makes sense that the Roman army in Jerusalem also included Jews, which would enable those Roman soldiers to enter the temple area, if needed, without causing a riot. It is also quite plausible that such Jewish soldiers arrested Paul before handing him over to Gentile soldiers either for the journey to Caesarea or at Caesarea. The fact that Agabus used Paul's girdle instead of a chain is of no consequence - Agabus could only use the materials to hand and his actions were symbolic.
In 2 Samuel 7:1-3, it is clear Nathan was expressing his own opinion before seeking God's counsel. In 2 Samuel 7:4-16 God corrected Nathan. This passage is a clear demonstration that prophets need to distinguish between their opinions and what God says.
Too many self-proclaimed prophets over the past few years have been passing off their own opinions and politics as God's Revelation. They have been exposed for the charlatans they are!
Dr. Keener is an excellent scholar. I’ve got several of his books and really cherish his thoughts on things. Thanks for this interview/discussion.
Love this. You mentioned Dr. Keener in the context of women in ministry. My church is in a season of thinking about this issue, and Mike Winger recently did modest length video where he addresses Craig's arguments and kindly critiques him with facts and logic. Is there any chance of having a "moderated conversation" on this channel between these two?
I'd say, consider The extensive work done by the New Testament Theologist on this. Hes a respected scholarly dude, don't be fooled by his age and hipserisms, the dude is SMART, and this topic is his acdemic specialilty.
The controversy gets wrongly labeled a conservative vs liberal/progressive thing, but this simply isnt the case. Instead its more like conservatives agree with certain things based on their alignments, and loberals appropriate certain arguments to support their goals, but the traditional arguments on both sides contain representative perspectives in orthodoxy.
Note: I'm firmly a fence sitter on this issue, I resisted Egalitarianism for a long time primarily because its associated philosophically, label wise, via feminists, with modern sexual deconstruction activism. Obviously the sexes have different roles in Gods creative design. OBVIOUSLY men and women are different and its given to men to be heads and protectors over women. So the philosophical core of complimentarianism is obviously scriptural, but how it gets applied via certain Pauline passages into overly black and white legalistic policies to completely suppress the ministry of women... that's something that there's genuine, valid egalitarian exegesis on, and its not liberal cherry picking and wishful thinking.
So its wise, i think, to really give the merits a fair shake.
@@ravissary79 I have been shifting on this issue. I thought I was ending up in the camp WITH Dr. Keener in that women are in actuality not withheld from any particular title/position. However, Mike Winger's recent 11.5 hour video summarily destroyed some arguments, and exposed a sever lack of actual evidence for other arguments. Dr. Keener's argument is one which Mike demonstrated a lack of evidence to support. I would like to see evidence in support of Dr. Keeners position, and I think Mike Winger would be interesting to have party to that conversation.
My current thinking is that complementarianism is the biblical position, no women in pastoral roles because she would have to teach and have authority over men. I think it is clear that women can be biblical deacons, just make sure your deacons don't teach or have authority over men and it is proper.
I am willing to change if I am given better information, but I feel like it is the evidence based conclusion at this moment.
Dr. Craig Keener is the Michael Keaton's Batman of Charismatic
This is the funniest comment bro😂😂😂
39:48 I’m sorry, but when they picked the people to be on this documentary, did they have on the list of things that you had to have is arrogance and obnoxious way of speaking
😂😂
I know I shouldn’t, but that comment made me laugh.
Craig Keener is a gift to the Church!
Keener bringing the fire today!
This whole series is amazing. Thank you.
I sometimes find it hard to listen to Dr Keener on these issues when the same type of criticism could be given to him about his Egalitarian view (especially what he says at 51:26)
Woohoo! Craig Keeners back!
I agree with the Michaels here. The Spirit -- in the record of Scripture -- accurately recorded that Agabus said what he said. If Agabus was "misquoting" the the Spirit, so to speak, that's irrelevant to the fact that it's an accurate record of what AGABUS said that He said.
Thank you for the content!
This show is just Golden❤️❤️
All these arguments provided here would be great for those in Matthew 7:22 claiming "have we not prophesied in thy name?" I hope those pseudo prophets and false converts are taking notes. Furthermore Keener's exegesis on Joel 2 is beyond pathetic. His understanding of tongues would be better if he knew nothing of this great gift.
To be a bit more accurate, I would not call cessationism a post-biblical doctrine but a post NON-biblical doctrine.
4:51 "Take worst excesses". It should be pointed out to cessationists that Atheists do the same thing with Christianity. E.g. they will find some sort of abhorrent 'Christian' behaviour, whether it be the Crusades or the Inquisition or something more recent, and then proudly declare, "See! Christianity is just no good."
@@JBly4 wow! I'm impressed! Did you really work your way through 8:videos, before your reply? Qudos to you!
I disagree that the stuff you describe is mainstream though🙂
@@JBly4As I said, I don't believe your beefs are mainstream among continualists. But even if you were right, it wouldn't prove continualism to be wrong.
The crusades had mainstream backing at the time - it didn't prove Christianity wrong!
Another great episode.
You need to get R T Kendall to do the next show.
Yes!!!
Would love to see an episode with Michael Koulianos from Jesus Image or Brian Fenimore from Plumbline Ministries.
Dr. Keener,
Please judge this prophetic word of edification, on the subject of free will.
"Thus saith the Lord Jesus Christ, “None of My sheep have free will.”
I am forever praising and believing Jesus is the Christ, and this is pleasing to God.
how can we get Dr Keener's wife on the show? Would love to see that!
Re: the context of the commandment -- I just want to know what other commands from 1 Corinthians and the other epistles to the churches I can just decide are no longer relevant and, thus, ignore. I, as a woman, don't have to be under authority, I guess, or hold my peace in the church? It's cool to be unequally yoked? This just seems like a really dangerous exegetical approach, and strongly resembles liberalism.
God desires faith. According to the Bible miracles do not produce faith, yet we have entire denominations doing little else than chase parlor tricks.
Where in scripture does it say miracles don't produce faith?
(As in have NO effect)
There's several places that seem to imply the opposite, that God does big things or intervenes to reveal something about homself for people to believe.
@@ravissary79 God's great miracles through Moses filled Egypt with undeniable evidence for the God of Israel (Ex. 9:27). Yet neither the Bible nor history records Egyptian repentance, only good riddance (Ps. 105:38; Ex. 12:35-36; 14:25). Further and more dramatic, consider the effect of those tremendous miracles on Israel. God followed the 10 plagues (Ex. 7:14-12:30) done on behalf of Israel with the parting of the Red Sea (Ex. 14:21-22) and the drowning of the Egyptian army (Ex. 14:26-28). Then daily for 40 years God appeared to the entire nation as a column of smoke by day and a pillar of fire by night (Ex. 13:21-22; Num. 14:14; Neh. 9:12; Ps. 105:39). The Lord kept their clothes from wearing out (Deut. 8:4), produced water out of the Rock (Ex. 17:2-6), fed the people with angels food from heaven (Ex. 16:4-7) and brought meat on demand, literally filling their camp with quail (Num. 11:31-32; Ps. 105:40).
Yet with all this, virtually the entire nation rejected God:
For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? ... Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? Heb. 3:16-17
...and in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation... was gone. Num. 32:13
Jesus did great miracles and crowds followed Him, but mostly out of selfishness. Of thousands who received His miracles, few worshiped Him. Of 10 lepers healed, only one even said thanks (Luke 17:17). Generally, Christ's miracles did not win over the crowds (Mat. 8:34; 11:20; 13:58; Mark 15:8-15; Luke 4:23-28; 8:37; 17:17; John 5:8-10; 10:25-39; 12:29-30).
The Lord explained it this way:
"If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead." Luke 16:31
Why not? With one's eyes one may see a dead body resurrected, but faith does not come by sight. Rather, "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). So even Jesus' own city rejected its miracle-working Messiah (Mark 6:4-6).
Now it’s your turn. Where in the Bible does it say that miracles produce faith?
@@garyh2100 They can.
John 14:11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
I am forever praising and believing Jesus is the Christ, and this is pleasing to God.
@@robertcoupe7837, yes, there are a very few examples of people choosing faith in the Bible despite seeing miracles. But, “we walk my faith not by sight,” “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.” “Faith… is the substance of things not seen.”
1:08:44 I thank God I speak in tongues more than all of you 🔥🔥🔥
Maranatha
In I Kings 22, a court prophet named Zedekiah said "Thus saith the Lord" and prophesied the defeat of Syria. Apparently Ahab had replaces the hundreds of prophets of Baal with yes-men who would claim prophecies came from the LORD after the people decided to serve the LORD and not Baal on Mt. Carmel.
Jehoshaphat recognized the problem and wanted a to hear from a real prophet of the LORD. Ahab realized it to and called for one prophet of the Lord whose prophecy was at odds
A with Jeremiah's.
'Thus saith the Lord' in a narrative section, as individuals in the video point out. '
I do not think this applies to Agabus. Paul was possibly restrained by Jews before being tied up by the Gentiles. He was bound by Gentiles in response to an issue raised by the Jews. It is also very conceivable that at some point, the Jews unbound him and sent him back to the Gentiles. The Bible does not contain every detail that occurred.
I don't see a strong case for saying Nathan prophesied falsely. I think the lesson here is that prophets should be careful what they say. If the priest or someone general had told David to build the temple because the Lord was with him, we wouldn't accuse him of prophesying falsely for saying the same words. But if Nathan said it, even if he didn't attribute his ideas to God, people still consider it prophecy, especially since he mentioned the name of the LORD.
Nowadays, most of us can predict some team is going to win the Superbowl. Someone could claim the Cowboys or the Falcons were going to win, and if it turned out to be wrong, he wouldn't get accused. (If the Falcons won, maybe people would call him a prophet.) But if someone with a reputation of a prophet made a human prediction, he'd likely be called a false prophet.
I don't see any evidence that Elijah coached prophets to make sure they were on track. A company of sons of the prophets gathered around him.
If the miraculous gifts were still occurring we wouldn't be having this debate.
They are. You have not experienced them but faith alone, by your choice. When one seeks after Yah, and not the gifts, the gifts will come. He still gives revelation from Scripture as well.
That's funny. The gifts were continuing in the days of apostles and yet the Sadducees believed they had ceased.
@@michaelmiller5024 I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion.
In Acts 5 the undeniable evidence of the miracles being performed by the apostles incited such jealousy in the Sadducees that they had the apostles placed in a public prison.
@@doulos9828that actually affirms my point they'd rather throw him in prison then repent.
Continuationists: "Here's 2 volumes of documented miracles by Craig Keener."
Cessationist: "Well we believe in miracles just not the gift of miracles and Craig's a heretic."
Just keep moving the bar...
@@michaelmiller5024 you claimed the Sadducees were cessationists. But they had always rejected miracles and the supernatural power of God. So, I'm sorry but your statement doesn't make sense.
And in Acts 5 it was not the authenticity of the miracles that they disputed but rather the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
The legitimacy of the signs and wonders were not even called into question.
The bar remains in the same position it has been - what we see proclaimed as evidence of the continuation of sign gifts in modern charismatic churches today does not pass the smell test.
You guys are off on your teaching the verse actually says to desire to prophecie not prophecy, there is a difference
I would like to point out about where it says "until the son of man comes", such as in Matthew 10 and 16... these find their finality in the transfiguration (Matthew 17, literally the next chapter) or at the crucifixion. God's kingdom comes when people are brought to penitent faith in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, resulting from putting their faith in His sacrifice on the cross. Y'all have somehow taken verses talking about the Gospel and repropriated them to somehow be talking about doing signs and wonders. Plus, Matthew 10 was instruction given specifically to the Twelve. Read the beginning of the chapter. And they didn't go thru all the towns before Jesus was raised from the dead and ascended. That's why the book of Acts exists. This video features a cataclismic understanding of Scripture that must be avoided at all costs.
Also I seriously hope Keener doesn't think Daniel Kolenda is a Christian authority to listen to. If so, I would point anyone reading this to the Kozar's reaction to Kolenda's reaction to the Cessationist Documentary. Messed Up Church TH-cam channel, "Hit The Bar" episode 63.
What good are fallible prophecies tho? Thats like putting your trust in the weatherman for an accurate forecast 😅Your setting yourself up for a major disappointment with no real benefit...
Are sermons infallible?
No?
Then what good are they?
@@michaelrowntree2005 I'm not sure why your comparing a sermon to a prophesy. A good sermon preached in demonstration of the power of the Holy Spirit will centralize the gospel and convict of sin, it will also challenge and edify the body. Its not someone telling you that God directly told them something and then trying to figure out if its true or not... I spent a few years in a pentecostal/charismatic church in Christian, West Virginia called Eagle Sanctuary and I've heard a lot of so called prophecies n seen a lot of ppl thinking they were speaking in tongues and also interpreting tongues... I never saw anything that looked like what I saw in the pages of scripture and when I would ask questions about them speaking in tongues or prophesying I was either given a completely nonsensical answer or was basically treated like I should sweep my questions under the rug n ignore them. I never knew of any prophecies to come true out of the many that were given.. Many times very generic prophecies were given like God says He is going to bless someone financially by the end of the month or week or whatever n something good financially would happen n ppl would think omg he is a real prophet lol I would have to roll my eyes because of how crinch it was. Tongues with the interpretation given was little more than someone speaking gibberish for a bit n then either the person speaking in tongues would give the interpretation themselves or someone else would n they would literally say things tht were straight from Scripture. I would always think to myself couldn't you have just skipped the gibberish n the church quieting down as they wait for the interpretation n making this big dramatic scene for what amounted to just a big nothing burger, when they could've just read scripture right from the get go n saved everyone the nonsense?? To be clear I don't say tongues or prophesy have ceased I've just never seen it genuinely occur and what I have seen is a bunch of nonsense. I'm skeptical of everything but willing to believe anything... I will also say that I've heard some fascinating stories from preachers who I know to be credible which convinces me that God can and does speak to His people and impresses onto their hearts for them to say or do certain things... I just don't see the value in modern day prophesy when it seems to merely keep ppl in a constant state of hopeful disillusionment, where they are hoping they were given a genuine word from the Lord only to be disappointed n let down far more often than not... I think I'd rather just stick to the more sure word that we have in scripture... I enjoy and appreciate what you guys do with your show tho. I loved your interviews with Dr. Michael Heiser, Carmen Joy Imes and Tim Mackie 😊 Craig Keener is also great...
@@michaelrowntree2005 thank you and remnant radio for your intelligent stance on the charismata. I was raised in a charismatic church for the first 13 years of my walk and the last 22+ years in a cessationist church. I began to wrestle with my experience with tongues. I am still studying it out but can confidently say I am a charismatic dispensationist. I enjoy your program. I also really enjoy my Cessassionist church because my pastor has helped me flame my deep appreciation for the word. This also is helping me stand in my continuationism. Be blessed. Love to get your notes. You should make this series a playlist!
@@graybillythekidHave you ever noticed how the so-called interpretation of tongues pretty much always comes out as a prophecy (i.e. God speaking to the church) instead of being an interpretation of someone speaking _to_ God, which is what 1 Corinthians 14:2 shows it should be:
_For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God_
@@Berean_with_a_BTh every interpretation of tongues I've ever heard was literally nothing more than gibberish being interpreted by someone simply reiterating something that is already written down in scripture so the whole exercise is pointless. The Corinthian church was horribly messed up and ecstatic speech was a common practice among pagans which is eerily similar to what charismatics today call speaking in tongues. Paul seems to distinguish between a tongue (singular) as something that's not intelligible n nobody can understand what the person is saying versus tongues (plural) as intelligible languages that ppl can understand. The pagan practice of ecstatic speech was possibly something tht had crept into the Corinthian church n Paul was trying to correct it n comparing the unintelligible gibberish that's not helpful to the body and the actual gift of intelligible languages that was helpful to the body. You seem to be referencing the false idea of heavenly prayer languages. It's total bunk...
You are the ones who are infallible in yourselves because you like so much in yourselves, the prophet Samuel concerning the anointing of David was not infallible he was right, it was that he simply did not have all the sons before him, because it was the father who thought David was not eligible not Samuel, you are still in error with acts 21 you still fail to see the truth,
Are you able to make a Biblical argument the gifts have ceased?
@@tpw7250 no I am not saying the gifts have ceased, I am saying that these people do not have the gift of healing they manipulate scripture to justify their position, because they do not understand why god heals this one and not that one, they do not heal all those who come to them, anyone can pray for someone to be healed this is not the gift of healing.
We know in part and prophesy in part
We are humans
Does the passage "we know in part" mean that....
1) we have an accurate but partial picture of God's entire plan, a correct but incomplete knowledge of God's revealed Word, or.....
2) we will always have a faulty understanding of parts of God's Word (as Graig Keener seems to believe) but we can't really know with any degree of certainty which part is known falsely or accurately. Which leads to another conundrum: how can we discern anything, including prophecy in light of Scripture if no one has the ability to accurately interpret Scripture?
This view has removed any way to ever authenticate/ discern the truthfulness of anything since the measuring stick (cannon of Scripture) is also known in part!
Hmmm!! Are you even sure of anything guys including your own view? Does personal experience becomes the standard of truth then?
I understand it to mean that God only reveals the prophetic picture partially, not fully. For instance, he tells Paul in Acts 16 to go to Macedonia, but the dream does not mention Phillipi (his destination in Macedonia). God gave him just part of the picture.
@@michaelrowntree2005 Got it.
I appreciate that you do agree that the revealed part we know (even in part) by revelation is accurate, not inaccurate (as per your example). Wondering to what extent this would also apply to the exegesis of Scripture. Michael Brown says since we make mistakes in our understanding of the infallible Word of God, it follows we will also misinterpret words of prophecy.
But it looked like Paul and Titus expected genuine believers to have the internal ability to correctly divide the Scripture and to hold on to the faith once delivered to the Saints.
Is this mental gymnastics a constructed way to explain away the sad current state of affair within the hyper-charismatics prophetic movement?
Let's continue to wrestle together.
Blessings
@@roykhan2730 the hypercharismaticism is a problem for sure. In the same breath that I can say “misinterpreting a prophecy doesn’t make you a false prophet” I can also say “Let’s not be flippant about missing prophetic words.” The famous “prophets” who publicly predict huge events that never happen need to repent.
I think Brown’s example is reasonable. True, we should rightly divide the word of truth, meaning we should be doctrinally orthodox and not teach things detached from the text. But sometimes “teaching something inaccurately” can be on a tertiary doctrine. Every believer will enter heaven realizing we got something wrong IMO. If we can expect some fallibility with God’s clear word, it is not crazy to expect similarly of prophecy, which Scripture describes as “riddles” and “dark sayings” (Num. 12). Especially when we have biblical examples of genuine believers misinterpreting the Spirit (cf. Acts 21:4).
Bless you!
Keener has a ridiculous amount of stuff in the background.
Why on earth does it take 8 long lectures to refute a stupid idea like cessationism??? Would you waste that much time refuting "grass is not green."?
For anyone reading the scripture honestly, and understang English reasonably, it is obvious that cessationism is nonsense.
Moeover, it is telling God what He is allowed to do and not allowed to do - a very bad idea indeed.
You need 8 parts? Wow. Not really sure about your position? I love Sam storms but he is wrong on this issue, as are you guys.
They’re not wrong. And they’re making sure they are actually dealing with every argument. They have 8 parts because they are diligent.
However, I would love to hear a cessationist give a biblical argument for cessationism. And by “biblical argument” I mean that it must come from the text, and it must agree with what the text says. Not contradict the text, and not out of context.
Based on what?
@@Travis_RosenthalThere is no way for them to do that because cessationism is false😅
Friend, instead of a blanket statement saying they are wrong, how about provide insights and data to substantiate your claim?
@@JBly4 Hi friend,
Thanks for your reply. I interact because I hope some level of productive conversation may emerge. I realize you disagree, but it’s my take. Thanks for understanding.