Amsa thinking Yoshi beats Marth to me is just a really healthy mentality to have in that you rate your character as good as possible even if its not really representative of reality. It puts the onus on the player to simply play better to win and really respect players who view the game that way as it means they are viewing the game with minimal excuses even if its not really accurate by match up definition.
for amsa I think he’s just going based off of how well he feels he does in the matchup and it’s probably something that should be taken lightly cause there aren’t many Yoshi’s at his level
What people don't realized that Amsa split his list into 3 tiers like the general one is like I'm assuming the average mid level yoshi player which is where yoshi wins but he also made his own amsa tier list where he actually feels that it's even while the third one is like a more theoretical which marth wins 55-45 so just FYI
The 70/30 used to mean 7 out of 10 matches won, now I (personally) think the community treats it more as a “better than 60/40” which is better than 50/50, not really about winrate. Then most low tiers would be 100/0 like bowser ness etc.
It's funny how uncontroversial the MU chart is for the top characters, but then the mid to low-tiers have some magnificent hot takes. Apparently, Kirby nearly goes even with Pikachu. The community has labbed this MU extensively. Also Luigi vs Marth is only 40:60. Easily doable if the Luigi plays well.
Falco, Fox, and marth matchups are so weird because they have such good matchups that whenever someone loses to one of those characters they feel like its a bad mu, even though its just not a sweep.
From "Fox can't do anything against Marth, I'm dual-maining Shiek" to "50-50 is okay, could be higher for Fox" how far we've come. Best player really defines the meta, huh?
I think a better idea would be to redo chart this but you can only vote on the the characters you actually main (max of 2) So many people think they know about other matchups when they actually don't - maybe they just watched a top player win or lose and think thats dictates it.
The low and mid tiers also come out a little bit weird cause of the fact that you couldn't select 65:35/75:25 etc. In addition to the lowest being 80:20. Some matchups are just absurd to put higher/lower
doc can really reliably break dj armour with up b, he has much more reliable kill confirms, moves like fair break armour really quickly, and he can kill
I main link, I've been playing him since I first got melee years ago, he's the best and I'm not too good to play in tournaments but nobody seems to beat me, not even the guy I've been training with since I got the game, he mains pikachu and it feels like I win to him 7 out of 10 times and he's a great player
@@oliverrainer5771 I think marth easily wins that MU but (and no disrespect to none) taking none and putting him compared to zain isn't really the best example. Like with the ratios here.. the point is to use hypothetical equals in skill and MU knowledge. You should look more towards say Kodorin vs none for a better example. The other top falcons too show just how devastating his punish game can be and off so little no less but yea.. marth still holds the biggest and most consistent advantages in the MU i'd say.
The thing with Falcon is that he doesn't have much to fall back on if you're not playing well, he's very skill variable so one day he can make a matchup look 60-40 in his favor and 40-60 the next. With that said Marth probably wins slightly just based on the tools each character has.
As a Marth main, this chart makes me extremely happy for one reason: It shows the truth of the Marth/Sheik matchup. That matchup is so garbage. Most people on the outside probably see it as just another matchup, but many Marths will complain about Sheik nearly as much as Foxes complain about Marth. Ever since the rise of Zain, some people have even been trying to claim that Marth actually wins, so the fact that the community didn’t latch onto that narrative is a genuine relief lol I do also highly respect you for not following Leffen’s pattern of constantly complaining about Marth. I’d even say that Marth pretty surely beats Fox 55/45, so the fact that you say that Marth winning is debatable shows just how much you respect Marth mains, because most of the time the complaining is used to invalidate Marth wins. Just the first minute alone showed me that this was going to be a good video. When a player has the ability to say a matchup is MORE skewed in their favor, you know he is trying to be as unbiased as possible.
A lot of it also comes down to what "level" of skill you're talking about. Marth vs fox for example... marth has a much lower skill ceiling than fox so 2 equal skilled players that are bad.. marth has the advantage but the more you play at top level the more fox favored it becomes until the highest end. Personally, i'd say fox actually beats marth 55-45 at the pinnacle of play as any "player" can make mistakes sure but if both "characters" separate from players are optimal.. fox holds the most advantages for example. From there it's just up to the player. Many have said marth (and everyone else) loses to fox when a fox is playing hot. The marth > fox narrative is extremely bad imo. But for the marth/shiek mu.. ya.. it can come down to the "level" of play that both are equally skilled at. The lower the level.. the better it is for shiek i'd say as her combos are far easier and far more consistent and or cookie cutter but I will actually say that the higher level you go the more favored it gets for marth to where I still think shiek has the mu advantage but not by much. Problem is that zain isn't = skill to other shieks.. we need to use Kodorin vs other top shieks to get a better idea and it's... close but shiek favored from what I can tell. TLDR: I agree a lot with what you said lol.
Yeah people always say that it's even at best for Marth but the thing is 99.999% of us who play melee are seriously NOT top 50 players in the world so it's so sheik favoured at every level outside of the tippy top who say that it's even
imo matchups in melee are so dependent on level of play, for example if a fox cannot reliable waveshine upsmash marth that can make the mu notably harder just as a very basic example
I think that they're pretty much spot on with Samus in terms of all the top tears except for shiek. Shiek is 30/70 at best. Probably 20/80. But samus does fine against fox and falco. cfalc is a little tough. Shiek is almost unwinnable. Fox really doesn't win these matchups against the 12 or so viable characters by that much. That's what makes melee playable. Fox has no losing matchups, but he can be comboed, so he has a lot of close to even matchups
I play marth, I used to think falcon wins hands down now I think it's even. both have RTC, marth has juggles and edgeguards but falcon has insane speed, and can kill marth from 0 with one combo
Because then Puff would be 50-50 against Fox because of Hbox being #1 3 years in a row. Matchups are about what each character has against the other, not what is done by humans. If every top Fox player suddenly started sucking ass, does Fox stop being the best character in the game?
I'm late but old games like melee or third strike will have 8-2s and possibly even worse. An 8-2 means the losing character should win 20% of the time, which isn't a lot but when you actually think about some of the matchups it seems like even 8-2 is too generous.
No way that Marth doesn't invalidate Samus as bad as Sheik and Falcon. Sheik plays the same game that Samus wants to play but better, Falcon is literally the only character in the top 6 that can combo Samus to death, and Marth juggles her to 100+ percent then slowly whittles her down, taking away her recovery tools to death.
take out his f tier recovery and maybe that's true, but luigi off stage without a jump is dead. It's not, "Maybe if I mash like mad tyro or get a misfire I can do something," if you know how it works, luigi doing a b move offstage means he dies.
@@gomjabbar6246 I don't personally think recovery really matters that much. If you take player skill out of the equation, what decides who wins is effectively a function of how good punish game is and how good neutral game is. If a character can take a stock every time they get a neutral win, and they always win neutral, then obviously they don't need to be able to recover. Nerfing fox's recovery wouldn't significantly increase bowser's chances of beating him.
There is no way in hell Sheik doesn't win, watch the Leffen vs Zain first to 5 Leffen smoked him off just a few neutral wins while Zain was hitting the crap out of him.
that notorious 60/40 marth/luigi matchup
Amsa thinking Yoshi beats Marth to me is just a really healthy mentality to have in that you rate your character as good as possible even if its not really representative of reality. It puts the onus on the player to simply play better to win and really respect players who view the game that way as it means they are viewing the game with minimal excuses even if its not really accurate by match up definition.
for amsa I think he’s just going based off of how well he feels he does in the matchup and it’s probably something that should be taken lightly cause there aren’t many Yoshi’s at his level
This comment is funny to look back on from 8 months ago, now amsa eats Zain for breakfast
@@Astar72439 Still is.
I mean at least it’s not most foxes. Remember when Cody complained that he was playing on FD when he lost against Don’t Test Me
Yoshi definitely beat Marth. Marth is overrated because of spacies propaganda
What people don't realized that Amsa split his list into 3 tiers like the general one is like I'm assuming the average mid level yoshi player which is where yoshi wins but he also made his own amsa tier list where he actually feels that it's even while the third one is like a more theoretical which marth wins 55-45 so just FYI
So now we need the Kirby’s and DK’s to settle this in a major turf war for character accuracy.
Too bad Triple R retired, the GOAT
D.K would stomp that tiny marshmallow.
The 70/30 used to mean 7 out of 10 matches won, now I (personally) think the community treats it more as a “better than 60/40” which is better than 50/50, not really about winrate. Then most low tiers would be 100/0 like bowser ness etc.
Exactly, personally when i make mu charts i treat them as degrees of separation.
It's funny how uncontroversial the MU chart is for the top characters, but then the mid to low-tiers have some magnificent hot takes.
Apparently, Kirby nearly goes even with Pikachu. The community has labbed this MU extensively. Also Luigi vs Marth is only 40:60. Easily doable if the Luigi plays well.
I’m so glad our boy Smyles’ project got featured.
Shoutouts to Jlyn’s gift subs making it happen!!
#FireNation
Falco, Fox, and marth matchups are so weird because they have such good matchups that whenever someone loses to one of those characters they feel like its a bad mu, even though its just not a sweep.
No way Puff peach is 6-4, surprised he didn’t mention that at all
Yeah it's 7-3
From "Fox can't do anything against Marth, I'm dual-maining Shiek" to "50-50 is okay, could be higher for Fox"
how far we've come. Best player really defines the meta, huh?
@Garo Hit the nail right on the head.
Throwback to the “I’m switching to sheik” days lol
I think a better idea would be to redo chart this but you can only vote on the the characters you actually main (max of 2) So many people think they know about other matchups when they actually don't - maybe they just watched a top player win or lose and think thats dictates it.
Reddit had a big input on this, all of this should be taken with a grain of salt.
roy fox being 30-70 when roy yoshi is 45-55 is insane
Dk not beating roy 80-20 is funny. DK just straight up wins
yoo I made it big
i was like, "hey i know that guy!"
The low and mid tiers also come out a little bit weird cause of the fact that you couldn't select 65:35/75:25 etc. In addition to the lowest being 80:20. Some matchups are just absurd to put higher/lower
shoutout to smyles
Crazy how irrelevant this feels only two years later.
exactly
It's funny cuz Cody can't see the colors on this chart
As a Yoshi player, Amsa is simply playing a different character if he thinks Yoshi beats Marth.
I've seen a lot of people saying that Kirby kinda randomly hard counters DK a lot, which is probably where that comes from
the puff matchups seem to be ripped directly from hbox's matchup tier list for puff
4:33 Why would Yoshi have an -easier- harder time against Mario than Doc?
doc can really reliably break dj armour with up b, he has much more reliable kill confirms, moves like fair break armour really quickly, and he can kill
@@scrunk845 TIL There was a difference in their up-b.
As an M2 main I find it hilarious that Falcon is voted worse than fucking Marth 😂
I main link, I've been playing him since I first got melee years ago, he's the best and I'm not too good to play in tournaments but nobody seems to beat me, not even the guy I've been training with since I got the game, he mains pikachu and it feels like I win to him 7 out of 10 times and he's a great player
Matchup knowledge. Keep pushing that link though. We need more mid/low tier reps
Lookin like Clint in this thumbnail
Marth and shiek against the top 5 lowtiers is just 90-10
Falcon SHITS on puff I will die on this hill
I'm with you
Quite frankly I disagree with the Sheik ditto being an even matchup..
smh the creator of this matchup chart values if you grab at the exact same frame you grab first and having a better throw by one frame the same.
marth/falcon being even: the most laughable lie the community has been telling itself for years
Who wins then? I quite like the matchup as marth but you die very easily. Seems even
@@Anybanks Hate the matchup as marth but it still feels even
@@Anybanks Look at Zain vs n0ne at Summit 9. If you play well, the Marth punish game far outpaces the Falcon punish game
@@oliverrainer5771 I think marth easily wins that MU but (and no disrespect to none) taking none and putting him compared to zain isn't really the best example. Like with the ratios here.. the point is to use hypothetical equals in skill and MU knowledge. You should look more towards say Kodorin vs none for a better example. The other top falcons too show just how devastating his punish game can be and off so little no less but yea.. marth still holds the biggest and most consistent advantages in the MU i'd say.
The thing with Falcon is that he doesn't have much to fall back on if you're not playing well, he's very skill variable so one day he can make a matchup look 60-40 in his favor and 40-60 the next. With that said Marth probably wins slightly just based on the tools each character has.
As a Marth main, this chart makes me extremely happy for one reason: It shows the truth of the Marth/Sheik matchup. That matchup is so garbage. Most people on the outside probably see it as just another matchup, but many Marths will complain about Sheik nearly as much as Foxes complain about Marth. Ever since the rise of Zain, some people have even been trying to claim that Marth actually wins, so the fact that the community didn’t latch onto that narrative is a genuine relief lol
I do also highly respect you for not following Leffen’s pattern of constantly complaining about Marth. I’d even say that Marth pretty surely beats Fox 55/45, so the fact that you say that Marth winning is debatable shows just how much you respect Marth mains, because most of the time the complaining is used to invalidate Marth wins.
Just the first minute alone showed me that this was going to be a good video. When a player has the ability to say a matchup is MORE skewed in their favor, you know he is trying to be as unbiased as possible.
A lot of it also comes down to what "level" of skill you're talking about. Marth vs fox for example... marth has a much lower skill ceiling than fox so 2 equal skilled players that are bad.. marth has the advantage but the more you play at top level the more fox favored it becomes until the highest end. Personally, i'd say fox actually beats marth 55-45 at the pinnacle of play as any "player" can make mistakes sure but if both "characters" separate from players are optimal.. fox holds the most advantages for example. From there it's just up to the player. Many have said marth (and everyone else) loses to fox when a fox is playing hot. The marth > fox narrative is extremely bad imo.
But for the marth/shiek mu.. ya.. it can come down to the "level" of play that both are equally skilled at. The lower the level.. the better it is for shiek i'd say as her combos are far easier and far more consistent and or cookie cutter but I will actually say that the higher level you go the more favored it gets for marth to where I still think shiek has the mu advantage but not by much. Problem is that zain isn't = skill to other shieks.. we need to use Kodorin vs other top shieks to get a better idea and it's... close but shiek favored from what I can tell.
TLDR: I agree a lot with what you said lol.
Sheik is the most toxic bs character
Yeah people always say that it's even at best for Marth but the thing is 99.999% of us who play melee are seriously NOT top 50 players in the world so it's so sheik favoured at every level outside of the tippy top who say that it's even
I'm rather fight sheik than a spacie any day, Marth vs Sheik is one of my favorite match ups in the game
@@benzed37 Thats interesting, give a spacie before sheik lmao
imo matchups in melee are so dependent on level of play, for example if a fox cannot reliable waveshine upsmash marth that can make the mu notably harder just as a very basic example
I think that they're pretty much spot on with Samus in terms of all the top tears except for shiek. Shiek is 30/70 at best. Probably 20/80.
But samus does fine against fox and falco. cfalc is a little tough. Shiek is almost unwinnable.
Fox really doesn't win these matchups against the 12 or so viable characters by that much. That's what makes melee playable. Fox has no losing matchups, but he can be comboed, so he has a lot of close to even matchups
Good taste in the background music wow
kirby is randomly good vs DK. iv done that match up many many times
Falcon marth 50/50 is such cap, and I play both characters. It’s not even at all lol
who wins in your opinion?
@@chullupa Marth. Zain and Kodorin would say that. Wizzrobe say that too.
And Puff/Sheik even is crap too. Puff is really underrated in this mu chart.
I play marth, I used to think falcon wins hands down now I think it's even. both have RTC, marth has juggles and edgeguards but falcon has insane speed, and can kill marth from 0 with one combo
@@PureSangheili s2j also thinks marth wins
@@chullupa marth 100% it’s not 2011 anymore when no marth players had punishes or actual tech skill
THANK GOD THIS EXISTS
but there should be more hard #s
doc falco is 60-40 lasers are basically invalidated in this matchup imo
65-35 at worst and doc fox is 70-30 at best. same for falcon
@@FrightNFight Forgive me if I don't feel your theory holds up to real conditions, Mr.Marx.
Why not create a matchup chart based on results from major top 8s or top 32s
Because then Puff would be 50-50 against Fox because of Hbox being #1 3 years in a row. Matchups are about what each character has against the other, not what is done by humans.
If every top Fox player suddenly started sucking ass, does Fox stop being the best character in the game?
Cammy sagat is only 8-2 and no melee matchup is worse than that
Im surprised Bowser-Sheik is not 0-100
I agree marth yoshi 50 50
7-3 is off? 7-3 is like REALLY bad. 8-2 is unheard of in most fighting games
I'm late but old games like melee or third strike will have 8-2s and possibly even worse. An 8-2 means the losing character should win 20% of the time, which isn't a lot but when you actually think about some of the matchups it seems like even 8-2 is too generous.
Cody going crazy over low tier mus is bonkers, what do the fox mains know about the bottom of the tier
No way that Marth doesn't invalidate Samus as bad as Sheik and Falcon. Sheik plays the same game that Samus wants to play but better, Falcon is literally the only character in the top 6 that can combo Samus to death, and Marth juggles her to 100+ percent then slowly whittles her down, taking away her recovery tools to death.
I feel better playing Sheik and Falcon against Samus than Marth. I feel like Marth's hits are too weak and it makes it hard in the matchup
So glad you admit how much spacies dumpster pikachu
LUIGI ABSOLUTELY BEATS SPACIES WATCH
iBDW doesn’t know shit about Kirbo
I think IBDW is downplaying Luigi by a good bit.
Spacies beat marth
I think luigi is more 50-50 than youd think
take out his f tier recovery and maybe that's true, but luigi off stage without a jump is dead. It's not, "Maybe if I mash like mad tyro or get a misfire I can do something," if you know how it works, luigi doing a b move offstage means he dies.
@@gomjabbar6246 I don't personally think recovery really matters that much. If you take player skill out of the equation, what decides who wins is effectively a function of how good punish game is and how good neutral game is. If a character can take a stock every time they get a neutral win, and they always win neutral, then obviously they don't need to be able to recover. Nerfing fox's recovery wouldn't significantly increase bowser's chances of beating him.
Marth has zero losing matchups it’s time for the truth to come out. The entire marth loses to sheik argument is gone
it's not. Sheik, Fox and Falcon could be considered losing matchups for Marth
There is no way in hell Sheik doesn't win, watch the Leffen vs Zain first to 5 Leffen smoked him off just a few neutral wins while Zain was hitting the crap out of him.
Algo comment #/
Talk to girls. Please.
One of his most popular clips is literally about him having sex.