Competition Safety: Reducing Gaggles
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.พ. 2025
- I had some time to think about competition risc and here are my latest thoughts about it. It shows the problems on blue days on my last competition day 2 years ago and makes some suggestions for rule changes to reduce the gaggle size and making the competition more interesting and not only optimizing your leeching skills.
Addendum:
Most of the video has been edited last year and I did not know, that Event marker and Minimum Alt has already been implemented in a lot of competitions. This is a good sign !
Leading Points:
I should also add, that I would not like the leading points to be to high. It should not cause disadvantages for gliders who have some gliders in front from time to time. And it should be zero on strong days. But on blue days, I think it is absolutely fair if the lonesome pilot gets a 5% advantage compared to the gaggle pilot.
Great video! In Germany two of your proposals are already implemented since this season. The marker start and the minimum altitude with 200 m AGL when you make an outlanding or use your engine. It would have been intersting to fly with these rules this year but unfortunately everything is canceled. Let´s hope that we will get back in the air soon.
OK, thats great to hear. I have not been involved very much the last year because I could not fly in these competitions any more (feeling to stressed in gaggles) so I am sorry that the video is not up to date.
Great video, very well put together. Thank you for taking the time. I like all the ideas, especially the marker start idea. The only trouble I see with that is it adds 10 minutes delay onto minimum starting time, but compared to the current system everyone takes ages anyway.
Hanggliding comps suffered from the same problems. They added the leading points over a decade ago and it completely changed the start ' games' for the good. I also like your idea with the press button and start 10 minutes later.
Great video with great ideas. Should be easy to implement in the next small comp in the local regulations.
Another peril is IMHO the Harakiri task setting with the the path to a turn point almost identical with the path from the turn point. So arriving pilots are essentially on a collision course with leading ones who depart the turn point. Here turn points #2 and particularly #4.
I know that Philipp adressed this topic in one of the first videos after his accident.
Some really good analysis and suggestions there. Worthy of a paper for the FAI or even OSTIV as it is about flight safety. I have flown comps at all levels and the one thing I truly detest is the pre-start messing around and large gaggles during the flight. I’ve had so many close encounters.
You are so right that nothing has changed materially since 1987. I remember one of the World Champions describing blue gaggle flying as having “all the charm of a knife fight in a telephone box”...
Instablaster.
Very well narrated video. I just learned about a month ago that a Gaggle is ducks or geese on the ground. In the air they. are a Skein. That is insane to have so many in one thermal. I think the 200 M AGL rule is also a good idea along with the marker start. I like the way pilots over in Germany say "I hope my english is good", or "I speak a little english" and then speak english with better grammar and more clearly than a lot of Americans who don't speak a second language. :)
Hey, sehr interessantes Video mit vielen Möglichkeiten Wettbewerbe sicherer zu machen👍🏻 Jetzt muss man nur noch hoffen, dass die Verantwortlichen Personen das auch in irgendeiner Weise umsetzen...
Ich denke allerdings, dass das Modell der „leading points“ auch Wettbewerbe kaputt machen kann, weil man eben auch ohne, dass man es unbedingt will, anderen Piloten hinterher fliegen kann. Aber die am Anfang angesprochenen Startverfahren kann ich nur unterstützen. :)
das ist ja kein Problem. Die leading Points sollen ja wenig Gewichtung haben und eben nur für etwas Ausgleich sorgen wenn einer vorne mal die Initiative übernimmt. Es soll nur verhindern, daß jemand der im Prinzip 3 Stunden lang nur hinterher fliegt genauso viele Punkte bekommt. Und über die Größe dieses Sektors kann man auch reden. Bei schnellen Rennen mit Wolken braucht es diese Leading Points z.B. gar nicht.
Vielen Dank für die vielen Denkanstöße lieber Phillip. Diese beiden Wertungstage haben sich auch negativ in mein Gedächtnis eingebrannt.
I've just found your YT-channel and saw a few videos - got very possitive impression - thank you! Thank you as well for sharing your ideas & thought regarding gliding, your comments about gliding strategy & your decisions in the air. Very informative videos.
Great analysis and solutions to the leeching problem and gaggle problems. Thank you for a great video. Greetings from Michigan USA !
Sehr interessantes Video. Wäre dieses Jahr eigentlich meinen ersten Wettbewerb geflogen. Vor den großen Pulks hab ich echt Respekt und kann dein Gefühl "einfach nur raus hier" in den Situationen echt nachvollziehen. Mal schauen, ob sich was in Zukunft an den Regeln in Wettbewerben ändert. Man kann's nur hoffen.
Super! Viellen Dank. Ich habe mir erlaubt dieses Video unter meinen polnischen Kollegen zu teilen. Bei uns gibt es seit geraumer Zeit auch Diskussion zu diesem Thema. Den Marker benutzen wir seit einem Jahr mit nur mässigem Erfolg. Ich selbst fliege 3 Wettbewerbe im Jahr. Es scheint, dass paradoxerweise FLARM am meisten dazu beiträgt, dass sich an schwachen Tagen, grosse Pulks bilden. Erst, seit dem wir FLARM in “Stelth“ Mode betreiben, hatte sich die Situation leicht gebessert.Das Problem vor dem Start, bleibt jedoch nach wie vor bestehen.
Ja, Flarm sollte definitiv nur um Stealth Mode betrieben werden. Bei meinem Unfall und überhaupt in dichten Pulks bringt es eh recht wenig
@@LSVFlachkurbler letztes Jahr, hatten wir stelth und competition mode zusammen aktiv haben mussen, und viele Kollegen haben ein deutliches
nahlassen der empfindligkeit des Flarms festgestellt, so dass auch ausserhalb der Pulks, die kollisionwarnungen deutlich später kammen. Nachfrage unseres Verbandes beim Flarm, wie es zu erklären wäre, blieb bis Heute unbeantwortet.
Very enjoyable video.
Isn't it ironic that the things designed to make us safer (flarm and engines) has actually added to dangerous behavior.
I used to fly in small regional competitions where people were friends and winning was secondary. But on nationals I didn’t enjoy it at all. Especially because of this unsafe behaviour of most of the guys. This is such a good video you did!! 👍🏼
Leading points and few algorithms are use in paragliding competitions for years. Mostly we use race to goal with 1 start time and big cylinder (exit or enter). End of the speed section ESS is close to goal purposely so we don’t fly at max speed to the ground - goal. This makes goal safer
I mostly compete with hangglider but this is really great insight... appriciate it. Not only gliders classes but also paragliding and hanggliding ruleset needs some polishing - pilots are pushing much harder then they used to, often breaking long used common safety practices. Compeittions shoudn't reward bold decitions but clever ones... :/ sadly, many times I dont feel like its like that.
Great video and it got me thinking about possible solutions too. Forgive me for posting this idea whilst still fresh in my mind as it might have some flaws I've not yet seen but here goes... It's called the Dummy Start...
Any pilot can leave the starting line at any time but can return, via a safe triangular course perhaps, to the start gate and have their clock reset. Any pilot who left after a returning pilot and then also returns is given a penalty for each and every plane that left before them and also returns but has not yet restarted.
When a pilot leaves now the leeches have to decide is it for real or are they going to be trapped. Some examples will help with the concept...
Nomenclature - 'Pilot' is the goody, L1-Ln are the leeches where n is the order of them following.
e.g.1 Pilot leaves, L1 follows and pilot returns. If L1 also returns they have one penalty.
e.g.2 Pilot leaves, L1 follows, L2 follows. Pilot returns and L1, L2 also return. Now L1 still gets one penalty but L2 gets two penalties, one for Pilot and one for L1.
e.g.3 Pilot leaves, L1, L2, ... Ln follow. Pilot returns. L1 and L2 may consider it worth taking the penalty but Ln+ know they must continue otherwise the penalties will be too great. Pilot, having now returned is free to 'leech' Ln who didn't return.
You cannot afford to be Ln where n>3 (depends on size of penalty) thus there is a period AFTER pilot has gone where you simply cannot afford to leave if you intend to leech especially if more leeches have 'started' and your 'n' is high. If Pilot decides there are too many leeches then they simply turn around and trap them. The power lies with the FIRST to cross the start, not the leeches. If you leech then Pilot can return and force you to decide whether to keep going and have Pilot 'leech' you or return and take the penalties.
Further example to ensure rule is clear.
e.g.4 Pilot leaves. L1-Ln follow. L4 decides to turn back. Any L4+ pilot now also returns will have a penalty. L3 then also decides to turn back. Every returning L4+ will now have these two penalties and L4 just one. Just to be clear here, L3 turned back AFTER L4 and still trapped them. Of course if L5 and L6 have returned then L5 is getting penalties for L3 and L4 but L6 is getting penalties for L3, L4 and L5.
Here being Ln where n is high just does not work - you MUST continue. 'Pilot' is the most powerful but L1 and L2 can also prevent a gaggle following them too. Of course in reality if Pilot doesn't return then Ln are content to leech but hopefully after leaving such a delay after pilot started to avoid the trap and becoming forced into becoming a lead pilot that they're so far behind to be non-leeching.
There would be nothing to stop Pilot dummy starting all day and each time the Leeches return they pay the penalty even if the day isn't completed. Penalties to be decided on the day. Penalties could be geometric rather than fixed.
Clearly a work in progress. Thanks for reading to the end.
Nice work! Thanks for your effort. Keep the nice vids coming😊
Very well known problem during competition unfortunately...
Interesting video and good work on the subject !
Hello big cousins! I agree with your suggestions.
Let me just tell you that regarding Hang Gliding, I too consider the scoring system with awarding Leading Points not very effective or fair and out of touch with the diversities of our enginless flying machines is all about at any given moment of the day.
For Hang Gliding the scoring system is very intricate because has to calculate both Leading Points + Task-time + Distance-flown with each and avery pilot at any given second during hours of flying, therefore it becomes a very slow to process, sometime even hours after last landed even off-field because he too has to be put into calculation for awarding or subtracting points... and almost all the times it leaves some pilots unsatisfied with the score and awaiting a long time after landing.
I think that giving a fixed amount of Leading Points only to the first 10 or 20 pilots according to their order of passing through a Collecting-Leading-Point Cilinder between Start and 1° Turnpoint and upon last Turnpoint ( being very crucial for final long glide to Goal Line) I guess it might be fair enough to everybody.
And let's face it, if you are always behind (one, a couple Kilometers or more) following the ones in front, chances are that you'll never catch up to go first thru the Goal Line... plus, let's consider other depending- on-weather-conditions sports are not 100% fair or flawless, skiing for example, but you know immidiatly the standing & the score of competitors, not hours after last landed... and no matter what, at the end of a championship the true values always come out!
So, I would sugest, forget what's happening for most part of the route (between few kilometers after Start and last Turnpoint) in order to let pilots free to select different lines from other's or different cumulus & thermals simply because I could see other developments just flying behind, 500mt or 1000mt from leaders, which are arising while the leaders in front of me are missing it just because it simply it started to develop behind them. So why should I get point penalised if a thermal starts as I'm passing and others missed it??? It's my choice to use that thermal and remain even more behind or ignored it and follow the leaders. That's the uncertainty of weather & thermals, that's the beauty of our flying sport, can't compensate that... only the Goal-line would show who did right or didn't, fair enough.
Having said that, pls allowing me to contribute by saying how we do about Task's Start during hang gliding comps; it works like this:
All the pilots takeoff with plenty of time in order to be "ready" at preset time for the Start. There are 2 Start time-gates or sometimes even 3, with 15 or 20 minutes of gap, and according to each pilot's judgment, meaning good altitude right at start-time or deciding that in that particular day you would prefer to start later rathen earlier, you are free to use which start you think it's best for you.
The only problem with second start is that you'd get very little Leading Points, almost zero, however if your overall task-time is faster than the first closing pilot (from first Start-time), you would still get more points for Task-time because you closed in less time than the other pilot, therefore it will allow you to gain First Place of the Task.
But to be honest, almost every pilot prefers to use the first Time-gate therefore you'd still have many pilots circling the thermal with the best base especially the one which happens to be five minutes before the preset Start Time-gate. So it wouldn't really solve the gaggle issue during Start.
Cheers!!
Interesting point about leading the pack; in the Handicapped classes, like club class, it will help to pilots with the poor perfomance gliders to equalize the chances of winning, for example the Cirrus std. against the LS4's and the ASW20 ,
Tolles Video!
Schade dass sich in über 50 Jahren Wettbewerbssegelfliegerei die Wettkämpfe so wenig weiter entwickelt haben. Dieses Problem ist doch sicher besonders ausgeprägt auf der Hahnweide, wegen der vielen Teilnehmer?
I like the secret start event.
On this day if you had started immediately, you may well have finished.
On the drawing numbers, the team should draw the number.
On the glide out, when you start the turbo, that is safer but it does disadvantage those with no engines.
Another option, have some rabbits. People not in the competition who are also flying, who get to go first. The others can chase.
on this day, if we would have all started immediatly, everybody would have been able to finish. This is a text book example of everything going wrong in scoring.
The 'Rabbit option' will not mitigate the problem of the massive gaggles. They will only depart earlier, but still all at once.
BTW: Would you volunteer to be the leader of the pack, with the known dangers involved (it were newcomers to a thermal that shot Philipp out of the sky) without actually participating.
@@kaihorstmann2783 I don't like gaggles. I don't like the blue either. The rabbit option means anyone leaving earlier has a target. They aren't handicapped. So my take is that the pack will be spread out.
The rabbit idea is interesting but it wouldn't work by itself, as pilots aren't just waiting for the first pilot to leave, they are waiting for the best pilot to leave. So the rabbit would have to be one of the best pilots in the world! Which is unlikely as they're probably competing instead.
Very good Philipp! It would be really easy to implement your ideas into future competitions. I‘m curious how long it will take for our officials in the DAeC to recognize this. The last letter of the BuKo Segelflug in regard to the corona-Crisis leaves me very disappointed though... Please wake up and use your brain!
the behaviour of BuKo, DAEC and LSV in Corona is really making me sad. They are trying everything to drive a wedge between the glider pilots instead of trying to help us getting airborne again.
Great content. Thank you.
During the flying section you could dim the sound from the plane to pronounce your voice. Sometimes it was hard to understand.
With my limited experience of about 60 solo hours I already had a few uncomfortable gaggles. Though there where 'only' 8 gliders involved it can get very busy. Once on a weak day where everybody was attracted by circling gliders and topped out at a low base a guy chose to cross the gaggle just a few meters below my wingtip. I really wondered how stupid a pilot can be if he only sees his own advantage.
How do competition pilots deal with the risk of loosing their head?
What you say makes sense. Let's see what may come of this via the FAI and / or OSTIV.
I was at Benalla for the Worlds in 2017. I remember the briefing one morning the day after 2 gliders had touched wings in a gaggle. One of the Safety pilots, from the Netherlands, got up and spoke eloquently about the need for safety and how everyone wanted to be home at the end of the day. That was the day of the collision, where 2 pilots escaped by parachute! Thank you for your constructive thoughts.
Thanks! Well spoken :-)
Mittlerweile wurden ja die Event Maker Abflüge eingeführt und auch bei einer Außenlandung od. Motor ziehen gibt es unter 200m AGL keine weiteren Kilometer Punkte mehr. Nur Schade, dass dieses Jahr keine Quali Wettbewerbe mehr geflogen werden.
Ich denke bei den Gleitschirmwettkämpfen haben wir alle diese Probleme gelöst - da könnt ihr ev. abschauen. Der Preis dafür: es weiss niemand wer am gewinnen ist, bis das Rennen durch ist.