The Big Hardness Gain Bullet Casting Water Quench Controversy - VR To Carl
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ม.ค. 2017
- Many bullet casters water quench our bullets...purpose: to gain extra BHN. Some say a modicum of hardness is gained, others report significant BHN increase...There is nothing in the written manuals on this - but lots of reports from various internet sources. What's a new caster to expect? Is it even important or is the issue divisive? Certainly they can find out for themselves...but before they do that...here's the rundown to get them started...
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IMHO, There are so many variables to casting and reloading that some folks just spend too much time worrying about things that just don't matter.
If you find a bullet and lube and powder charge that does Not over Lead, and Does what is needed in a particular firearm, STOP screwing with it and SHOOT.
If it is not broke, don’t fix it
At 63, like you & others, I've been at this for a long time. I started into it moderately back when I was barely into the double digits I think. I delved into it much heavier around the very early 80's once life settled down a bit. I started dropping bullets onto towels and blankets early on and did that for years because water dropping wasn't a thing back then. As time went on and after reading numerous articles about "quench casting" and how it provided a higher level of hardness, I decided to give it a go. I was in contact with Veral Smith (LBT) back then and decided to buy his hardness tester to provide a standard to test alloys by. Using his tester I found that it followed the standard hardness levels given for various alloys. Using WW's at a standard air cooled BHN of 9, I experimented with water quenching and found that I averaged a 5 - 6 BHN (14-15 BHN total) increase after only a few days to a week. Over the years since, I researched the reason why this occurs (arresting or freezing the lattice structure) and have never reverted back to air cooling bullets unless I needed the softer performance levels.
I've been casting since my pre-teen days and at 63 I'm still at it bigger than ever. Over the years I've read tons of manuals from Ideal/Lyman, as well as articles from Elmer Keith, Skeeter Skelton, Mike Venturino, and Veral Smith. I started water quenching bullets back in the very early 80's after picking up an LBT hardness tester at the behest of Veral Smith. It was the easiest and most practical and accurate tester at the time. I experimented with the whole process and found that using wheel weights at a national standard of 9BHN, they could be hardened into the 14- 16BHN range after water quenching and a few days of stabilizing. As long as the alloy has a given level of antimony (as WW's do) the effect is noticeable. The more antimony, the more of an effect. Heat treating by using an oven even takes it a step further. Quenching bullets in cold water from a near molten state in either process arrests the micro lattice like structure in lead before it has a chance to migrate to it's natural placement......making it harder on the exterior. Over a long period of time, like years, it will eventually revert back to it's natural state, but I've tested water quenched bullets that were two or three years old and they varied by only a point or so. Just my findings FWIW
As always Mr FC45LC, good thought s and thanks for sharing.
Charlie.
The Eastern front - And there is still a lot being done with heat treating and such. Plus powder coating has put a whole different twist on it...We need a manual that includes heat treating and powder coating our cast bullets - with load data and all of that... Best to ya, FC
Just want to say thank you for the added addiction to my gun habit.like reloading wasn't enough now I'm casting and going crazy hunting wheel weights in the parking lots lol. I have had a blast the last two years watching your vids and learning from the other casters who post replies.please keep your Chanel the way it is. You are a awesome teacher and a gentleman thank you for your hard work.
VApe CEntral - And I really appreciate you taking the time to post comment...and continued Safe, Fun and Good Shootin' to ya...FC
Wow, Thanks for the clarification. I do hope that my concern and the comments left on the previous video didn't cause any anger. Another great video sir.
To late you already made me drool , I use an old curtain and tshirt for my landing area for the bullets
In my research prior to starting casting, I found information in a non-shooting/engineering publication that water quenching only works on the molecular structure of the cast lead IF there is a small percentage (say 0.3%) of Arsenic in the mix. Really old Wheel Weights apparently had some trace Arsenic in them but these days we are using just lead and Lino etc so no trace Arsenic and thus limited increase in hardness from quenching.
Good subject Cookie. I feel that any way that you want to do your bullets, That is just fine by me. Ugh.. I came down with the Flu over the last few days so I have been watching a lot of You Tube.. hehe.. Good casting to ya, Dave.
I read a published study on the subject that looked pretty legit. It had lots of charts and math that I totally glossed over and went right to the conclusion. What the author determined is that lead does not respond to hardening by quenching. There is a temporary hardness gain but after a few days that temporary gain is lost by some sort of relaxation of the alloy back to it's permanent state. I haven't tried to duplicate this study on my own but like I said before the original experiment looked very well done leaving no doubt about the results. I trusted the conclusion and never looked back. I believe that there is little need to chase hardness in pistol bullits and if you want consistent hardness gain in rifle boolits that is best accomplished with an alloy adjustment. I also have never had an issue of denting boolits by dumping them onto a pile of boolits. I have never noticed a single instance of a dent or defomation of the fresh cast boolit when demolded ont a pile of boolits. Just my two cents. People over complicate this casting business. It's not that complicated.
So happy now i just need my lyman wadcutter pellet! I get all free range half are hast 38 357 9mm and alot of 45s. You've been casting for a long time man. if my grandfather never passed he would love your videos! I found so much. Mainly a Lee load all that was 16ga i bought the 12 conversion, my local reloading dealer who has all just so happens to be my grandfathers friend. now I mec and roll crimp with pr, bpi and a custom roller, also custom 3d mec parts but fortuncookie45lc your videos helped me reload 12ga instantly. I found all lyman and hornady from the 60s. All of 87 book #45 luber, acculine press, spartan press, plus his lyman cast iron huge hand roller etc. But all else was stolen! 50, 60+ years of reloading. It took 7 months of buying and waiting now I have all. Almost everything bpi sells and I watched your videos the whole time while waiting. The too many wads video is still amazing and I share it to all who just started reloading. Your promo in that vid saying it's the same as red is genius and true! I use red dot, green dot, Bullseye, a few others but need some Longshot. Just 1 question? What powder besides blue dot would You use shooting very heavy loads? 700 800+ grains of lead? Thanks good shooting to ya! I have 200 vids to upload
Thanks FC45 for all your help and knowledge. I cast scrap lead (plumbers lead) and a wheel weight mixture, I have a Brinell tester in work and my bullets test at 10-11 air cooled. Water quenching raises that toa a 13-14 after a week. I've had no problems with that hardness in any of my firearms after powder coating and resizing and I've driven my Lee .358" 158fp bullets to over 1800fps with no leading in my 20" Rossi 92 rifle. I even cast the same mixture in the Lee .309-230 30 Cal. mould, trimmed them to a 170 flat base and powder coated them. Those bullets out of my 30/06 M1 were hitting over 2000fps still with no leading. Just a quick brush and a swab of Hoppies was all that's needed for clean up. Doesn't get any better.
2023 Update. I've been casting a Lee 429-214-SWC for my 629's, water quenching and powder coating them (thanks for the video's) and have great luck with them from 44 Special 800fps loads to full house 1400fps loads with Unique, Power Pistol or Autocomp. Heating them to 400* and quenching them again has really worked and is very consistent as far as I can tell. Again, no leading and fine accuracy. Maybe it's the powder coating that makes the difference, I did take a nice sized doe with that bullet last year at 40 yards, right place/right time. The bullet lodged under the shoulder blade on the far side, quartering shot, and had mushroomed to just over 1/2". She ran 30 yards and dropped. Frankly, I was surprised at the bullets performance, most times I hunt with XTP's but the lead was just what was in my 6.5" 629 at the time and I had no complaints. My hardness tester is a concrete floor and a 3lb hammer, good mushrooming and the powder coating stays put no problem.
Awesome knowledge, didn't know quenching would really work on lead bullets, good to know and thx for sharing wisdom with us reloading wannabes lol, cheers :)
I've been water quenching for years. I just did it cause it's quick and easy. Like you said I can Mike them right away. I've never even considered whether it would make them harder, or softer, or anything in between. I just don't like handling hot bullets, or waiting for them to cool.
I think hardness you get from water quenching was based on wheel weights, because or antimony and arsenic that were in them.
I started reloading back in 2012. I read somewhere, that you should water quench your bullets for extra hardness. Not only do I water quench, but I use a lot of ice cubes in the water to get the temperature icy cold. I have not changed the recipe in lead melting or water temp since 2012. My bullets comes out great.
What lead temperatures are you casting at ?
I started out casting fishing sinkers for my uncle's when I was a pre-teen and soon graduated to their bullet making.....that was almost 50 yrs. ago now. Once I cleared high school, after a few years I was back heavy into casting and shooting and it's only gotten worse lol. Take it from me FC.....water quenching makes a considerable difference. WW's average about 9 BHN air cooled, but if you water quench them and let them sit a few days they'll average 14-15 BHN. By water quenching it arrests the crystalline structure of the lead and keeps it from migrating back to it's original form or structure. I corresponded with Veral Smith way back around 1980 and he offered a lot of advice back then......as well as his lead tester (which I still have). As WW's were very plentiful back then, that was what I used the most....very common and easy to tailor. Nowadays, not so much....getting way scarce. Still though, most of my casting usage is still done with them.
Thanks for this very good video! I've not water quenched myself as most all my CB loads are low pressure/velocity and I'm not looking for super hard bullets. Some wisdom points toward softer bullets in lower speed & pressure loads leading less owing to better obturation & seal with a softer bullet in a modest pressure load. I have really liked the bullets by Lasercast/Oregon bullet co that are 24 BHN. They're great to load, don't lead & are accurate in even rifle loads without gaschecks. I wonder though how these hard bullets would perform for hunting. The company seems to think they don't shatter. I havn't used them for hunting.
That’s really good information especially when he shows you the book I have an in color. It seems like people say that when you do the crunching method the hardness can change especially if you do a powder coating so I do indeed trust Mr. Cookie more than the rest of the crowd.
I have read that arsenic plays a big role in quench hardening. Alloys with more arsenic will harden more when quenched. So each alloy will react differently depending on composition.
Your a good teacher man
Dear Fortune Cookie:
In my correspondence during the '50's with a well known shooter I was instructed to not only water quench, bullets designed for service style rifle loads, but to heat treat the bullets as well, raising their temperature to a fairly high uniform level in the oven, to get a uniform temperature, quite hot, but well short of melting them, THEN quenching, ALL OF THEM AT ONCE for the most uniform hardness the uniform temperature of the quenching medium being as important as the UNIFORM temperature of the bullets themselves. Also he wrote me that it usually takes several days after quenching, when the hardening of the alloy bullets is complete, before handling of the bullets should be undertaken, and for best results, sizing and lubing should not be done until then, it is to be assumed that Elmer believed that aging of the bullets was as necessary as heat treating quenching, weighing and segregating, the next line of his letter then goes on to state that all of this is for OPTIMUM accuracy, extolling the benefits of weighing each bullet before sizing and segregating them in lots for different uses, the heaviest being the ones for target work, THEN he went on to say that for most uses including field use that visual inspection and sizing and that lubing right out of the mold was enough and that all the heat treating, weighing and aging were for target and COMPETETiON use and extolling the use of the Loverin 311407, 311467, and the SAECO RG4 for best results, (it is almost incredible to realize that this man and his friends had been using such bullets for target shooting and competition at ranges of 1,000 yards with success) he goes on to discuss with me, and refer me to General Julian Hatchers extensive work with accuracy in cast bullets, and his articles published by him in the American Rifleman, just that year, and stating that the results were in part published after he, Hatcher, Townshend Whelan and another well known shooter had collaborated with him. It is significant to notice that all of these advances in casting and shooting cast bullets was figured out by a few men long ago, and that they themselves were using knowledge gained by Pope, Loverin , and Lyman's own John Barlow, then they published what they had learned, and were largely forgotten. It would behoove anyone who is interested in Cast Alloy bullets to acquire those reports of General Hatcher's published during the mid '50's to use as a jumping off point for further experimenting. Elmer Keith and his peers probably forgot more about casting and using alloy bullets than all of us combined have acquired on our own, this knowledge that Elmer and his peers had was considered as common as breathing in and out, and for him it took an inquiring and almost worshipful and respectful teenaged boy's letters to him to politely share with me his knowledge. What we know about the subject of cast alloy bullets come from our standing on the shoulders of Giants, I can think of no one who has collected and published a COMPREHENSIVE record of these discussions undertaken in an almost casual way during correspondence with peers during the '50's, probably there's a book waiting to be published in there somewhere by someone who has access to these conversations, if anyone has that desire, I would be willing to share what knowledge and documentation of these conversations I might have. I haven't seen those letters and copies of my inquiries to Elmer for years now, but surely I haven't thrown them out, I hope.
Donald Denison I would be interested in them .
Dear Brian:
Are You contemplating publishing such a book? what are your other sources?, have you read the articles published by General Hatcher in the Rifleman during the mid fifties? These are your best sources, also HELL I WAS THERE, and SIXGUNS, by Elmer. I haven't seen these letters or the copies of my letters to Elmer for years now, they were written on an old Remington Manual typewriter which was state of the art for writing when I was just barely a teenager from 1954 until about 1962 when I entered the Army. They are probably in the box my mother put all my personal correspondence and other personal things in February of '62 when I enlisted. I never have dug into these boxes, but at age 75, I suppose I should, I probably don't have many years left to do these sorts of tasks. Have your Publisher contact me about this matter, good luck with your writing and research. My correspondence with Elmer came about from me writing to him in care of his publisher back in 1953, it was almost a year later that he got the letter and responded in 1954, I was 13 then and in the 8th grade, I'll never know why he began a correspondence with a snot nosed kid, but we wrote each other until I enlisted in February of '62, we met only once, relationships like this no longer happen, it seems no one writes letters anymore. You close your eyes for a moment and open them to find the world changed.
Best Regards
Don Denison
Donald Denison - Sorry for the delay in reply - Google did not post your comment in my inbox, and how else are we YT posters going to know - we can't go and review every video to find out if comments have come in otherwise...I stumbled onto this one from you when another comment on this video led me here. The work of the old time casters with their paper patching and all is indeed fascinating. YT posters like MannyCA have actually brought interest in paper patching back. And there are molds from Accurate and Arsenal that are paper patch designs. I think that I developed my own personal policy on cast bullets back in the early 70s when I casted for my handguns, starting with my Colt 1911 and S & W M28. Cast bullets were excellent for my pistol shooting. For rifles, I was into varmint shooting with 223s and 25/06. There, cast bullets would not get me what I wanted, so it was strictly jacketed bullets there. Since then, I've found cast to be useful for 30 cal reduced loads and also for 30/30, 45/70. But otherwise, jacketed bullets. With the advent of powder coating, now we have the challenge of discovery and rediscover... I hope you find those letters from Elmer - they are real treasures... I thought that all Elmer did was use his 16-1 alloy, his sizer lubricator, and shot up a storm..!! Best to ya, Don -- FC Steve
Elmer told me the heat treating in an oven for a time , then allowing them to cool also hardened the bullets, said it took up to two weeks for the process to complete itself after quenching depending on the antimony content. Evidently a little antimony is needed to help heat treat bullets. I believe it was John Taylor who advocated heat treating, it may have been Hunter though. Mostly Elmer did just cast shoot and lube, but he did know about and understand heat treating. The experience I have had with cast bullets on game has not been hardness, I have seen a 1-40 alloy bullet penetrate an Elk completely, it was a 500 grain bullet at a little over 1500 fps muzzle velocity, it was though at only about 50 yards away. Paul Matthews has the best and most comprehensive treatise on paper patching, the man had it all figured out. I tried it in my 45-70 rifles at both Blackpowder and smokeless velocities. His method works really well, but it is a HUGE pain in the butt. Matthews claims that relatively soft allow bullets can be fired at service velocities in .30 caliber rifles with accuracy. He had a well known mold maker make him adjustable nose pour single cavity molds. His book The Paper Jacket is worth every cent of it's price. I haven't done any shooting lately, the weather has been too snotty, Highway 26 that intersect with Highway 88 at Red Corral is washed out, has been for about a month now so if I need to go to Jackson, I have to go down to Mokelumne Hill and then take 49 to Jackson, Cal-Trans seem indifferent to our difficulties and say maybe 26 will be open in April, probably not until May. I still have considerable snow laying in the shady spots, and I'm thinking I'm getting webbed feet. At least we don't have a failed spillway and dam threatening us here. Spring is coming. I'm getting Cabin Fever, though I have been playing lots of music on my guitar and piano, so the music itch is getting scratched at least.
Donald Denison - According to articles posted on the Los Angeles Silhouette Club, antimony is primarily a hardener for lead alloys straight up. A little arsenic is necessary for successful heat treatment of lead bullets. Back in Elmer's day, tin was thought to be useful as a hardener. Tin's real advantage is to help the alloy flow to fill out bullet molds better. There is about 1/3 the hardening of antimony provided by tin. I want to get some 1 - 16 (and now probably some 1 - 40) alloy from RotoMetals to do some actual Keith casting for future videos. Might be fun. Safe travels to ya, and may things open up soon... Best Regards, FC Steve
Thank you I agree we don't want the bullets to hard
Hey Steve, I will have to get a Lee hardness tester. I recently got 2 bars of hardball and 1 bar of linotype from Rotometals to mix with the four 8# lead scuba weights and 8# of w/w which I suspect are softer than hardball or even the w/w. I quench bullets released from mould when casting. Quench hot bullets that are powder coated, whicj likely harden up batch more uniformly. Great video.
There is plenty of hard data from that pamphlet the cali bulet casters put out, as well as some recent data sponsored by rotometals. The biggest factor is controlling temp at the point you dump them in the water. Dropping from the mold has a huge variation in cooling time. however if you bring them all up to near critical inside an oven and dump the whole batch in water you get 1) uniform hardness, 2) significantly more hardness than you get from mold dropping.
GunFun ZS - That all sounds great...I've got to check that out...but my latest bullets are hard..(from alloy mixing) And I can get BHN 36 with some alloys straight up.!! Sizing them was a chore. I suppose I could size them and then heat treat them. But at what point would I just say, I guess it's time to order more of those SMKs or Scenars or Bergers...And then there is the whole new world of powder coated bullets and getting them to shoot MOA... Best to ya, FC Steve
Your last comment about bullet hardness is right on the money! The hardness of the bullet has to match the application of the bullet. For most pistol bullets a 'hard' bullet would be cast from Lyman's #2 alloy which is BHN15. When it comes to water dropping bullets, the amount of hardness gained really depends on the alloy of the lead used. If you water drop an alloy that is only a lead - tin alloy like the old 30:1 & 20:1 you're not going to get much added hardness as you need an alloy that has antimony and traces of arsenic in it, such as Lyman #2. Water dropped #2 can reach higher hardness than pure linotype, but without the brittleness of linotype. A few years ago I bought a bunch of pure soft lead 26lb bricks, and I already had some monotype & linotype , as well as some stereotype, and I had to come up with a recipe to make an alloy close to Lyman #2 using one of those bricks as the lead in the recipe, unfortunately I don't remember exactly what the amounts were of the other alloys, but I came pretty close (I don't remember if it was slightly harder or slightly softer). I had a stroke a few years ago that effected my eyesight a bit, so I haven't cast my own bullet since then. I should probably sell my drawers full of bullet molds, but I keep telling myself that one day I'll get back to it. That's the same reason I haven't sold any of my photographic darkroom equipment either! :)
One last thing, I've yet to check, but supposedly the hardness gained by water dropping bullets goes away after a few years, although I don't know if that's 5 years, or 15, or more?
Hi Steve!; The main reason I've been water quenching my bullets, (BOTH hangun & rifle bullets, even those designed to use gas checks), is much lower final cost. Many years ago, I was carefully following Lyman's #2 alloy recipe, but then read about the 'water quench treatment' I'm using now, much cheaper because I just use wheel weights + 20% Linotype + 1% Tin and (after 2 - 3 weeks of 'curing' any specific lot of bullets), then obtain BHN roughly 25 - 27, and only then, I lube / size (and install gas checks if bullet design so allows), and almost get 'jacketed' accuracy & consistency at lower final costs. If I add powder coating to the above, (And water quench hot powder coated bullets right after coming out of the oven), the outcome is even better, with No leading whatsoever, even in rifle bullets (.243 + powder coating AND lubing / sizing 0.001" over groove diameter, NOT to be used over 2.200 fps / reduced loads). Thank You & Blessings for your in- depth info!!..
🤗🙏🙏🙏
I just bought a Lee Lead Hardness tester. It uses a special point in a press that is spring loaded that must be held under spring pressure for a given amount of time. You then use a eye loupe to measure the indentation and check it against their hardness chart to get you final measured hardness. Its relatively cheap I would imagine you prolly have one of these by now to tell your exact bullet hardness Fortune cookie
Howdy, I am wondering about the different weights of alloys in a particular mold. The Lee Precision technicians were telling me that my Lee molds were created with 95% lead to a 5% tin (20:1) mixture when they calculated the weight in grains for a bullet. I recently purchased 2 molds from Lee, the CTL312-160-2R and the C312-185-1R 185. I had already cast bullets with Lyman #2 (homemade alloy) before I had talked to Lee Precision. The weights of the bullets were pretty far off, average 157 and 177 respectively. According to the Lead Alloy Calculator, my mixture to get Lyman #2 was 14.9 BHN. I was able to mix an alloy (I was out of Tin) of 2.87% Tin, 1.98% Antimony and 95.1% Lead for a BHN on 11.3 in hopes of getting to the 20:1 that Lee recommended. Average weights were closer to the mold description; average 162.6 and 183.2 respectively. My question to you is this. How would you calculate your load recipe for the lighter bullet (higher BHN for rifle bullets) when all of the data on the websites and books call for the 160 or 185 grn cast bullets? Another problem I have is that Lee doesn't even list their own molds for the cast bullets in the 7.62x54R section of their own book. Also, I am powder coating with very consistent results. The Lee Modern Reloading 2nd Edition, revised 2019, talks about pressure versus BHN to great lengths; Chapter 10, matching bullet metals to chamber pressure. In short, there is a factor of 1422 that you would multiply by your BHN and that would calculate your Ultimate Compressive Strength (UCS) of the alloy. Ideally, you would want to be 10% less than the UCS in your chamber pressure for the best accuracy. I can't even find a cast bullet close to the weights to even start a safe reduced load.
Hey FC, thanks for the video. I cast soft lead right now because that's what I find at my recycle outlet. It's mainly roofing lead and now I'm powder coating them. I'm hoping the hardness from the powder coating will keep my Rugers and Marlin Rifle clean of lead, at least relatively clean. Would you agree with me ? Thanks again for your great videos !
Hello I love your videos they are so informative and interesting, can I ask I have some pure lead and some big plumbers lead solder bars I was think while smelting the pure lead would say include a proportional amount of the solder bars ?
I have read about and start seeing a few water quenching videos. I was wondering what kind of impact it would have on the rounds. Thanks pointing out the BHN hardness and a BHN of 26 is just between Pure Aluminum and Copper.
DviDawg 3082 - Glad that you posted again in this video - your other post on the Hi-Tek did not show up in the comment section for me to reply - Hi Tek is a fine way to go - requires mixing of liquid powder. If anyone want to go that way, that's mighty fine...We really don't want bullets harder than BHN 22 - pure linotype - Lyman recommends using Lyman #2 alloy for almost everything with pure linotype for certain rifle rounds only - most of our shooting can be done with BHN 18 and below. Have a great day, FC
What weights are your Keith 44 mag bullets? What weights were the Keith 44s?I bought some that i belive were Keith style awhile back i think 250 grain, from a local shop. I remember there wasnt as much data for the weight it was. They shot pretty well out of the redhawk. Ive got a bit of lead, havnt cast anything yet. Once my lead is gone, not sure if il have a good source, so not sure how much to invest into equipment. Local dentists offices ive checked with all went to a different method of x-ray that is more low dose radiation, and no longer use lead foils.
Read the metallurgy section of the Lyman cast bullet manual, it describes how lead alloys behave and how they loose the extra hardness over time.
Thompson Jerry - It is interesting reading, but it you also read the stuff on LASC and CastBoolits - by the time you get all the stuff from all the experts, there will be contralateral confusion. When our bullets work and work well, that should be a big part of the day. Best to ya, FC
Sir, how about a simple test? I did this test years ago. I had been hearing (1980s) pros and cons concerning water quenching and that the hardness that was gained would be lost in a short period of time. I used the SAECO hardness tester (new at the time I think) and that is exactly what I found. I do not have the expertise you have BUT I found that there was a gain in hardness with quenching but within a short period of time the bullets had lost that extra hardness. I stopped using the water quench and depend on the alloy and the proper mechanics... Please consider doing a test. I like to put questionable bullets right back into the pot while still hot which cannot be done if they are wet. Many of my speciality mold blocks are of smaller size and get too hot if I do not take a little more time between pours. By checking the bullets while they are cooling on the moist soft surfaces I use I am better able to keep the smaller mold blocks cool enough to avoid overheating the mold blocks. I have not been checking bullet diameter as I cast because I use libra-sizers... going to try your methods this spring. I find your work fascinating, please keep-up the good work Sir.
fortune cookie 45 ,1st i want to thank you, your videos are priceless when it comes to a new reloader like myself. i mean they are a treasure trove and i appreciate you doing what you do for the next guy. 2nd i have a question, your bullets that you cast, are they all strictly lead? if so does that make them rougher on your barrel, and third if they are all just lead then when selecting a powder for reloading do u just go strictly off the grain of the bullet is it still the same as a jacketed bullet? The reason i ask is if i decide to cast my own bullets i was just wondering if its the same. Thanks again.
If you were to water quench your ingots and then later water quench your bullets would you get roughly twice the hardening effect over if you just air cooled everything? Im just starting out and was just wondering.
What is your prefered method of lubing the keith bullets? I dont own a lubrisizer and im still tinkering with getting set up for powdercoating. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Interesting about water quenching the bullet from the hot mold. I know a guy whose family was around during the US civil war days. His great grandpa dad told him that they would drop a hot molded round ball bullet from a 2 story tower into a cold water stream to cool the bullet to get them to be a hard ball for ammo use during the Civil war days. I think steel workers do the same thing to harden steel.
Bob Hartman - Fantastic, Bob - that's the first I've heard of quenching cast bullets from that early date...but stands to reason - lead shot was made by use of shot towers into water quench - that had to start from somewhere. Best Regards to ya, FC
So if I got some rotometals 16 to 1 (bhn 11) and water quenched it, do you think i would end up with 12-13 bhn?
The weird thing I found was that I got more harness with half 'pure" half wheel weights than straight wheel weights quenched. It might have been that I got a bunch of strange alloy though. I haven't figured this one out yet, because the results fall outside of the formulas for alloy/hardness ratios that others have published.
I want very hard bullets when I have a load with high chamber pressure loads. i.e. rifle loads that are not reduced. For example, the pressures that most max loads for 308 Win published recipes for jacketed bullets dictate a bullet in the ~34 BHN range. 7.62x39/30-30/300 blackout max loads for jacketed tend to require bullets between 26 and 32 BHN. Also, that does me no good if there is 5 BHN variance bullet to bullet from a batch. Even if all are hard enough to not lead, that initial pressure required to seat a harder bullet into the lands will show in velocity and cause vertical stringing.
So for me, a person who wants to do volume target shooting of 30 cal firearms with normal trajectories, consistent hardness and high hardness is critical.
GunFun ZS - There must be some reason I've resisted shooting full power rifle loads with my cast bullets. I readily shoot reduced. Thanks for putting some numbers on my reason...I'd have to cast with pure SuperHard alloy...or just shoot jacketed bullets...The military went to jacketed bullets and never looked back. Best to ya, FC
Hi FortuneCookie,
Been watching for vids for a while now and enjoy them and learn from them.
I just recently bought a Marlin 94 looking forward to shooting it. One thing I know for sure is that I will be re-loading for it, especially since 44 mag is a little pricey. I will start by using a lee loader kit.
I will probably stick to using 240 grain soft point jacket bullets for a while until I learn more.
I know eventually I would love to experiment with 300+ grain hard cast bullets, but I am not sure how well they will shoot out of the marlin 94 rifle. Can you tell me what is your experience reloading with 300 (or higher) grain bullets for the Marlin 94?
What is your favorite recipe for this rifle using hard cast bullets for the Marlin 94?
Your tips will be greatly appreciated thank you,
N. C. - First thing is you will need to look on the barrel to see if it is Micro Groove. If it says Illion, NY on it, it is not micro groove barrel. Micro Groove barrels are great for 22s but for centerfires - they are set up for jacketed bullets. If shooting cast bullets - you will probably need .431" - .432" bullets to shoot well with cast bullets in your Marlin 94. Regular cut Ballard rifling will shoot jacketed and .429" - .430" cast bullets well, and we prefer the cut rifling. My favorite loads are 6.5 grains Unique with 200 RNFP Lee cast bullets for general range and recreational shooting and practice. 7.2 grains of Promo (Red Dot) with 240 Lee cast SWC TL bullet for general purpose and short range hunting. 300 grain Lee cast bullet (there is only one) with 18 grains of 2400 powder (this one is a real blaster kicker - work up on this load for safe development - your gun might not do well with this one) cast hard and full magnum - you can shoot woods mule deer or elk with that load; you can load 7.5 grains of Unique with the 300s if you want general purpose shooting. Always verify any load you might see with published reloading data. Have a great day, FC Steve
Supposedly you'll get optimum bhn if you have 4 to 6 % antimony, if you have 2% you'll get minimal hardening from heat treatment.
Nice gains bro
I mix linotype and get a reasonable alloy and then water quench out of habbit and convenience. It likely does help but I don't care any more since I really have adopted Hi-Tek coating. I no longer lube-size. The shake and bake method is the only way to go for me. Your mileage may vary but for me, the Hi-Tek obviate bullet lube in both rifle and pistol. It just works better all the way around.
Mr. Cookie, I am very surprised you do not own a LEE hardness tester. It's one of the best casting products I own. Its a little quirky to use but VERY accurate as I have tested it against known BHN levels. I paid bout $30 many years ago. They are currently $69 at MidWay but hey, it beats paying $194 for the Saeco! Treat yourself my friend.
Hope you are doing well. Nice stock pile
I am curious about is when they’re exposed to heat for a second time, when you powder coat ?
does the lyman cast bullet handbook give the velocities that the bullet can handle for each brinell hardness.
grounds28 - The LCBH does that by recommending the alloys for each of their bullets in each of the calibers data pages. Most recommend using Lyman #2 alloy, but there are some high intensity loadings that recommend using Linotype...interesting that if water quench got us hardness to linotype, the recommendation should be to simply water quench... doesn't do that, this is the current handbook... Best to ya, FC
Kool..
Thanks FC45
I've Always Quenched.. Dont Know Where Idea Came From For Me..
Old Westerns TV BlackSmiths?
Hot Metal Into Water When Done Working It Maybe?
11:12, we don't want bhn to be 26? I recall on one of your videos a breakdown of loads and reference to the Lee hardness chart and psi. For high calibers, that are fairly common, 9mm and 38 Super, a high bhn around 26 is suitable right?
My understanding is that arsenic plays a key role in quench hardening. The more arsenic you have in your alloy, the more hardening you will get from quenching. This will explain the huge variance in hardening results from different people because their alloys contain varying amounts of arsenic that nobody is controlling for.
It is ANTIMONY.
@@lestergillis8171 Hardness is directly proportional to Antimony level regardless of quenching. But with equal levels of antimony an alloy with more arsenic will quench harden more.
I know this is an old post but, I have a question. Do you find that quenching makes smaller bullets. I know from having been a welder, and studying a little about metal reaction to heating and cooling that. Heating metal causes the molecules to align and become more uniform, when you freeze or cool it quickly they stay somewhat more uniform causing the metal to be smaller. I should assume lead will react the same as most other metals. Knowing this you may want to forego quenching if you are casting too small if bullets, and opt for another method (lino) when trying to add harness to your bullets. Correct? on the other hand if your bullets tend to be too big, you may want to start quenching if you don't. It could reduce sizing especially if you powder coat!
Just finished up casting 940, 230gr boolits for my 300 blk out. My ingots have a bhn at roughly 11. After water dropping mine, my projectile now has a bhn at 16 now.
Fortune cookie I just started reloading for the 45/70 with Lee 340 grain cast bullet. Do you have any powder recommendations?
Greetings. Do you let your bullets harden before reloading and shooting? I’m using Rotometals 2-5 percent antimony. I also water quench. Thanks!
Very interesting! From my little bit of experience, cooling metal fast does harden metals. However, I know that some metals become quite brittle when water quenched. I also know that water quenching welds causes them to become brittle. Lead has different properties than the steel that I’m used to. Steel isn’t malleable.
MB - Good points you bring up. Some have suggested that they get increase of 10 - 20 BHN (?) hardness of cast lead bullets when they water quench. Results in cast bullets at BHN 30s. These videos may still be out there. That really is not plausible as Linotype alloy is BHN 22. They are talking BHN in the neighborhood of SuperHard alloy (BHN 35) just by water quenching. If that were so, the bullets would be so brittle, they would break up on any bone hit - totally unacceptable and would be very evident without delay. I haven't heard those claims recently, even though I know those claims are made in good faith - I don't trust the Lee Lead Hardness tester as variations in operator interpretations occur. However, water quenching giving extra 1-2 BHN seems to be reliable. Best to ya, Steve
FortuneCookie45LC Thanks Steve! I’m a newbie who has bought some 44 mag dies, but doesn’t have a room setup for reloading yet, so haven’t purchased a press, etc.. I have watched oodles if reloading vids, and a few casting vids, mostly yours. Lol! Thanks for the detailed work and sharing that you do. I look forward to putting some of what I’ve gleaned to use soon.
I enjoyed this video FC45LC, The only casting I do is for my BP firearms in various calibers, my prefered lead source 25lb bags of lead shot #7 or #8. The shot is a clean melt and averages $2.00 per pound. My long ago method for hardness has been the HB2 lead pencil test, if the pencil will groove the lead then perfect for my BP casting. Your thoughts would be appreciated..... I do not water quench.
Along with your lead shot what other components are you adding to harden up your cast bullets..
If one powder coats cast bullets, does the BHN become a moot point?
Just got my stuff to start casting. I have a question about getting the hardness sooner. If I put the bullets on ice, would it speed up the process?
I've been quenching my cast bullets in water for the same reason a blacksmith dunks his hot metals in water. They will tell you that quenching metal in water causes the molecules to arrest and makes the metal harder.
do you need separate melting pots for separate alloys?
I have been casting bullets for 40 or so years as well.
Strait water quenching does harden a cast bullet somewhat and provided
one uses a bullet such as the tumble lube lee and liquid alox with no sizing it
will remain hard. The water quenching only affects the skin layer of the
bullet. If you must size your bullet after quenching, you can work soften the
outside skin of the bullet.
I have the RCBS Cast Bullet manual which includes a detailed article on the subject, “Cast Bullet
Heat Treatment” by Dennis Marshall. This article does not specifically cover
drop quenching from the mold but is very informative.
If you don't have a copy of this book I can e-mail a PDF of the article.
Thomas Gervais - Just checked MidwayUSA and they don't carry the RCBS CBM, must be out of print. That's one manual I don't have in my reference library. I'm going to check Amazon and see if they have any old issues for sale... like buying old issues of Gun Digest... Best to ya, FC
Other than possible hardness, it seems to me dropping into water would help prevent and nicks or dents in the freshly molded hotter, softer bullets.
Cmax Arms - Especially if there is an old towel at the bottom of the water. I really don't think we get huge gains in hardness with water quench - but GunFun ZS has a good point - for consistent hardness gain, we need to do heat treating and then dump all bullets at the same time into water at once...otherwise, the gains are all over the place and inconsistent fueling the controversy over how much is actually gained. Best to ya, FC
Yes you can water quench if you like, the targets don't notice, the deer don't care either, lead changes hardness when you size it and when you leave it alone for a period of time.
Ive been casting episodicly for the last 30 years. I have been water quenching from day one. Never really gave it any thaught beyond thats how i have always done it.
Lyman bought out the IDEAL reloading tool co.
IDEAL was started by one Mr. Barlow shortly after the war. Shortly after he retired, I think Marlin managed it for a few yrs until LYMAN bought it.
I have a earlier copy of the LYMAN book.
It was well worth the price.
What a great voice for Warner Bros cartoons, personally is see a basset hound, turtle or drunk ground hog.
How does water quenching affect powder coating or hi-tek adhesion?
I drop everything in water because I can cast faster with my magma master caster not messing with them during casting, and I PC everything with no problem, I've used harbor freight and power buy the pound powder coat with zero problems. An average year for me is 40k cast
Also...hardness changes over time. The day you cast a bullet will be quite different a year later...You're right, chasing the hardest bullet is really counter productive. This is a case of you just need "good enough".
That sounds like good advice from MISSOURI BULLETS.
Dear friend, first of all I want to thank you for everything I've learned until today and only in a little over a month and I make my bullets! But although I use counterweights to get the lead, and pass them after painting them for the 356, I notice that they turn and lose trajectory and stick aside I suspect that the lead is very soft and I would like to advise me how to proceed to solve the Problem, added tin? In what proportion? How do I measure the hardness of lead?
Andres Poblete - Best way to harden lead alloys is to use antimony. If you have lead wheel weights - those are very good, as is, to make most of our bullets. Your counterweights are probably pure lead and too soft for a lot of our shooting. If you have any metal scrapyards around, you might be able to locate some linotype - that has good amounts of antimony and also tin - you can mix linotype 1 to 1 with your counterweight lead to get the proper hardness for shooting... Good castin' to ya, FC
sorry dude, I was referring to i have use wheel weights....But if the flux is insufficient can the mix get softer.???
Andres Poblete - Fluxing our alloy is good to 1) help raise the dross to be skimmed away 2) help mix the tin and antimony back into the alloy 3) protect the surface of the lead from oxidation. Waxes do 1) and 2) but not 3). Sawdust does all three. Fluxing should not cause any changes in the hardness of the alloy. Current WWs are on the soft side so you might find that adding a little linotyupe will help you get the bullet hardness that you want. The videos on lead alloy mixing recently posted should help you with the ratios to be added. Have a great day, FC
Roger that! many thanks Fortune.
LOL.. I been casting about the same length of time as you.. I 'invented' the water drop... for me anyway.. as you say.. all the manuals say to drop on soft cloth. I filled a 5 with water and dropped em right in.. but not for making em harder.. I am just lazy and impatient.. I just wanted to be able to handle em sooner. Shooting em.. I noticed that they were harder.. I have no idea how much but they were.. I use scrap lead of who knows what composition. Water dropped seemed to be around the same hardness no matter what lead I started with. But as I have found.. antimony is kinda key.. wheel weights have it.. but shot for shotgun reloading have even more.
Doran Maxwell - Water quenching gives us harder bullets, but the control of how much hardness increase is not easily achieved. And the articles I've read about heat treating our cast bullets and age hardening our bullets all require a laboratory to keep all the processes consistent. When you get right down to it, our most reliable hardness control is with the use of antimony and, to a lesser extent, tin. Plus water quenching is good for 1 -2 BHN reliably...claims of getting middle 20s BHN - I just don't see that much hardening when I'm sizing my bullets... Have a great Memorial Day, FC
The shock that fast freezes the lead bullet is harden way before it hits the bottom of what every you have holding water. A gallon of water will do just fine. Other side of the coin if you want soft bullets you want to cool them down as slowly as possible.
Just hunt up some metallurgy and you can read it for your selves. Same goes for steels but, not cast.
Get a copy of Veral Smiths Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets , at Lead Bullet Technology. The last text book on the subject .
When was that published?
GunFun ZS the edition I have was from late 2000's, maybe 2008 or 09, something like that. I don't have it right here in front of me so I can't check at the moment,
The original was published over twenty years ago ,Mr Smith has updated it , very informational.
Ah. When I googled it, the only copy on Amazon was from 1984 and looked self published. They were asking $104 + shipping. I cast bullets to save money, so that's right out.
I got the Keith mold love it. Old hand me down
Smoking the molds IS important especially on new molds.
The best, and cleanest way to smoke the mold is with a butane lighter, or a wood match.
There is no harm in water quenching of bullets out of the mold. but in the interest of uniformity , it is best to bring them to a given temperature, holding it at the right level, THEN quench, then age the bullets before sizing and lubing. It is surprising the amount of additional hardening that occurs during aging of cast alloy bullets. There was an African "White Hunter" that wrote about heat treating and aging of alloy bullets early on, I wish I could remember his name. Elmer knew all about heat treating and aging of bullets, but said for all but match use, one could sort. lube, load, and shoot for field use without all the trouble.
fresh bullets are softer then old one!s .i think that water dropping ages faster
the sound they make bij rattling you can hear also if the bullet is harder or softer
Water quenching basically gives you a surface hardness a case hardened surface and as soon as you put it through your run it through a sizing die you wipe the case hardening off
Do you have any thoughts on lbt products
Michael Kuhn - I really don't have need for bullets that heavy, although I do have some heavy Lee molds...this does not mean that they are not well regarded - far be it, if I needed to go after dangerous game, they would be front and center...but I'd just bring along my 375 H & H or 458 Win Mag for all the edge I could get. Have a great day, FC
hello there sir. I was wondering what would be a good bhn for .308 and .223. I just started using linotype in my range scrap lead for my .357 and 44. I use straight range scrap lead for .38 and .45 acp powder coated and the barrels are nice and clean. thank you for all the wonderful videos.
Grant Atkinson - Straight range scrap is perfect for standard velocity target loads (and even +P), but for the 45acp, a little more hardness might be needed for functioning. However, if your 45 is running well, then it is fine with the range scrap. If you shoot light magnum revolver or light rifle, you will need at least BHN 18. You can get that easily by mixing linotype or better yet, SuperHard alloy with your range scrap. I just did a couple of mix videos on how we determine the ratios to mix to get the BHN we want... You might check those out - answers pretty well... Best to ya, FC
Thanks. I'm making fishing lures now with lead. I never fluxed my pot back in the day. I do now and the Do It molds run so much better
Grant Atkinson - Good castin' to ya, Grant... Best Regards, FC
FortuneCookie45LC thank you for sharing your experience and expertise.i started reloading when I was 20 or so. 28 years later I'm still learning. thank you for responding. I get questions about firearms from friends and you have made me sound good.😀 I used to teach reloading classes back in 98 at the gun shop/ shooting range. I really enjoyed that job. I had to quit to take care of my mother. she had a stroke. I am now getting back into the firearms industry. I hope to get a class 6 so I can sell my ammunition. make my hobby a job again. thank you for all the wonderful information and please keep the videos coming. I like firearms review and other personal experiences.
Grant Atkinson - You are a good son to take care of mom...strokes are life changing events, not just for the victim, but also the families... Gun stores would be fun places to work in...Best Regards, FC
Hello FortuneCookie45LC and all fellow casters. I have some degree of curiosity regarding water quenching and lead hardness, and would like some input from the community. Upon watching this video and also reading the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition, I realized that the book does make references to water quenching, albeit not as a direct instruction on how to cast. I think that water quenching hardens the allow due to "supersaturation." If you look at the last two paragraphs of page 92 of the Lyman book, it explains the benefits of water quenching. Rapidly cooling the bullets (water quenching) allows for the precipitates in the alloy to be distributed more widely and uniformly. By cooling the alloy faster, precipitation reaction occurs more rapidly through the range of temperatures that precipitation occurs. This causes "Supersaturation," and since the distance in which the atoms can move is decreased, higher and more uniform strength properties can be achieved. This begs the question: would water quenching with ice water (to increase the cooling down speed even more and thus supersaturating the bullets' alloy even more) be more beneficial? Could this be the water quenching processes that folks who are achieving high degrees of BH are using? I know Im speculating a bit. Thoughts?
Hi Fortune Cookie, i am using the 90465 6- Cavity 9mm mold, I am getting an average size of .35558 (using and industrial vernia, i am getting tumbling of 50 % of the rounds. Could water quenching cause the slight shrinkage. Hope you can help. Thank you for your vids.
Moose Sulaman - There are several reasons for bullets to lack stability in flight...1) bullets too small for the gun 2) not enough velocity 3) not enough barrel twist rate 4) fouled barrel 5) bad barrel 6) wrong ammo 7) combination of above. If you have it down to 1) above, then an easy fix is to powder coat your bullets...you can easily add .002 - .003" to your bullet diameters and then size them as necessary (or not - just load 'em and shoot 'em). Best to ya, FC Steve
Thank you Sir, that is very helpful. I really want to powder coat, but here in South Africa, it is hard to come by the Powder Coating Powders. I have tried importing them from the US and no luck again. Can you advise me how I get can get some powders sent to me here in South Africa. I am willing to pay via Western Union or any other legal money transfer method. I have requests from my daughter for pink bullets, my wife turqoise etc, but 1 year later, no powders. Any assistance or advise will be much appreciated.
Sounds more like "10%" is a more accurate estimation of increase based on your experiences with it. Which would be 1.5-2 brinell.
Mr Smith has a awesome web sight for casters , Get the book ,One does not know what one does not know.
Because it isn't necessary with correct alloy but if a 15bhn alloy is used and you need 18-20 then instead of having to add antimony just water quench. That's why I do it ..
I water quench my WW and I'm at 19 BRN. I now hitek and they drop the BRN to 10 even after couple days. Iv been told that once you cast and hitek it drops the BHN and it's true. but since I hitek I was told not to worry about the softer BHN.
As cheap as cast bullets are to buy from acme act.........does it make sense to cast unless you have a tonalada of leadbelley runneyroundtheyardey
I did the smoking first and than released and used the molds just as bare clean aluminum and they drop same maybe even a bit easier but Im getting cleaner cast as the mold is bare.
How cold of water do you use
Cast bullets will likely soften as time goes by. Quenching creates stresses and that is how hardness increases. Over time, being a relatively softer metal, those stresses will relax eventually. Alloying may slow or even stop that but alloying enough to stoping softening would cause the bullet to go very light... So if you quench, might as well shoot them asap.
If one powder coats cast bullets, does BHN become a moot point!
My Marlin 1895 with MG barrel doesnt like ACWW near as much as WCWW. Thats at 1500FPS and below. The group size dropped from 4 inches to 2 inches when I started WQ. The rifle can do better but my eyes cant.
How do you cast hard bullets
I quench into ice water. Super hard bullets. No nail dent.
Also... it completely depends on your alloy on how much your BHN will increase with WQ. It’s when your pushing the envelope on velocity that you normally want harder. I am like you though, all of my stuff these days are always under 20bhn.
AlaskanGuy RemoteAk - Before I learned about WQ, I controlled the BHN with alloy composition. When WQ became fashionable, I heard all the claims about getting 10 more BHN after WQ. To this day, I do not depend on WQ to get me hardness exceeding that of linotype, choosing to be on the conservative side as WQ does get us more hardness, but the amount is uncontrolled. For example, I'll use BHN 15 alloy for my auto pistol alloy, and WQ will get me more hardness - to what doesn't matter to me as I'm good with whatever it is. If I cast 44 Magnum, I'll use BHN 18 alloy and WQ again to whatever I get. The bullets shoot fine, clean and accurate. If they did not, I would look for solutions. My current 357 Maximum 22" barrel project, I am casting 200 grain bullets with pure linotype and WQ also. Have a great day, FC Steve
Wow....
Fortune Cookie I want to get into casting just for 44 cal and especially my 4570 loads but want them as hard as humanly possible what do I need to do first Sir thank you
For the hardest bullets practical, we want Linotype alloy (specified for some bullets in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook). Unfortunately, we can’t get that with scrap alloys. Rotomerals (and other like companies) makes that alloy for casters for around $4 a pound. We can do good work with range scrap, water quench and powder coating. I have full videos on all of that but TH-cam REALLY hates casting videos. - Best to ya. Steve
FortuneCookie45LC o
You will find,(as I am sure you know) ,that your very old cast bullets are harder now than they were when you cast them years ago, this is because Lead age hardens, all quenching does is bring this process forward, I have a policy of never allowing water anywhere near molten Lead, this is because I have seen a person running around with a lace headgear of solder when water dripped into a pot of molten solder, if I want to heat treat I just place a tray of cast bullets on a tray in the oven and quench the lot just before they slump, then they are all the same, and I have no water anywhere near me when I am casting. A very simple way of proving if it works is to use your Lee Hardness Tester, that is a much more scientific way of getting the BHN, quite how any caster gets to BNH 24 I cannot imagine, I find 12 is only achieved with much alloying.
Englishman French - Firstly, this is a highly charged subject, and I always take the risk of offending people when I bring this up. Since you are an experienced caster - let's give it a go. The best policy is to not have water near the casting pot -- because water can get onto or into something that will be going under the surface of the molten alloy in our pot. People continually believe that any water that touches the surface of the lead in the pot will cause an explosion. But what actually happens is that something containing water is put into the molten alloy and goes subsurface. That something shields the water for perhaps four seconds delay (causes the confusion) until the heat reaches the water inside the fishing weight or inside a cavern in a lead ingot. Then the expanding subsurface steam bubble expands with surprising force and blows the lead out of the pot with a bang. (I'm not talking about a spatter when a wet cold ladle is placed on the surface of melted alloy) Typically, the entire pot is completely empty after the bang and the lead coats everything in sight. Since there was a few seconds delay, the story will go that a drop or drops of water or even sweat hit the lead and caused the explosion. Sometimes a few drops of water goes on our alloy and the water can even protect itself for a while and dance on the surface. I have demonstrated water dripped onto the molten lead on more than one occasion and even casted when it started raining...consider that water on the surface is fully vented and cannot move the lead - but confine the water under the surface where it cannot vent and you have a bomb - the power of confined steam. However, not everyone can handle water around the pot without knowing how to keep it from getting subsurface, so the best policy is still to say keep all water away from molten lead. But the real policy is to never put anything into molten lead unless we are sure there is no hidden water in it on on it. Safest way to melt lead is from an empty pot and only add clean dry ingots into molten alloy. We will go around perpetuating the one drop of water on the lead and explosion will occur theme because it is expedient to do so and does not disturb the sensibilities. Best Regards to you, FC