Blood on the Clocktower - Shut Up & Sit Down Review
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มี.ค. 2019
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"requires 8-13 players"
me dreaming about having that many friends:
Don't worry, just having this game will being friends in like a magnet.
Yeah, 2 player is my usual maximum.
Maybe we can install a giant mirror on the side wall of the living room. 👥🤣
To be clear, it’s actually 6-21 (including yourself)
Or that much space. I'd have to rent a storage locker to host this game. Not that I would because it seems pretty standard. I did a spit take when he said it's his favorite game.
For those flaming SU&SD left and right for this review: Today Blood on the Clocktower became the #1 party game on BGG.
because nerds really know how to party /s
This game is definitely too expensive for me to buy. However, one of my friends saved up and got it himself and brought it to our college board game club. I'll never forget this one game--
I got the Zombuul role, so basically, I was a demon that could "die" once in the game and still be alive. We were also playing a small group of people, 6 players and the storyteller, so we had the Toymaker rule in effect: once in the game, the Demon needed to pass on killing someone on an applicable night before they could win. On night 2, I decided to go for a wild play and kill myself. My plan was to pretend to be an annoyed good guy the rest of the game and throw everyone else completely off my trail. However, I was shocked when the next morning we were informed that no one had died. That's when one of the villagers told the group that she was the Sailor and she had made me drunk, and since no one died I was probably the Demon. I immediately went into crisis aversion mode and said that it was the demon probably just passing to fulfill Toymaker, and it was a coincidence. Thankfully, everyone else agreed with me. I decided to kill someone else turn 3, gave my minion his instructions on who to pretend to be (he looked a bit confused when I pulled him aside, but I explained and he got it), and one of the towns people came up to me and said he knew I was good because of his role. Didn't really make sense, but great!
I killed the person I meant to on night 3, and things were going well. I was in the room by myself while everyone else had secret meetings outside, and the Storyteller asked me how I felt. I told him I felt great, and he looked happy. On the last night of the game, people were getting pretty suspicious of me, so I pinned it all on my town partner who "knew" I was good, and so we executed him and I jumped out of my chair in excitement. Evil had won!
The Storyteller then told us that Good had won surprisingly, and he looked at me with a huge grin and said, "and that includes you too!" Apparently I was the Lunatic, which I'd never even considered, so I only thought I was the demon. The actual demon was the Pukka, his power was that he pointed out someone and then they died a night later. So on night 2, no one died not because the Sailor targeted me, but because Pukka had chosen someone else. That person was the same person I chose to die on turn 3, by pure coincidence we matched up! My minion had been confused because he knew who the actual demon was and it wasn't me! The Storyteller asked how I felt because he knew I was the lunatic and he was having a blast watching me play so confidently evil! The towns person who "knew" I was good and who I had gotten executed turned out to be the actual Pukka, so by executing him I'd won the game for good! My god, the room dissolved into hysterical fits of laughter as I stood there in complete shock. I'd managed to win the game perfectly-If I had been evil I would have won since enough townsfolk were dead, and since I was a town person I won since I'd executed the actual demon. This game can definitely produce some magical moments I'll never forget, even with small groups of people.
I was going to question ST making a demon drunk to sailor, but that is incredible
It truly looks incredible, but it's £152 with shipping... Holy moly
That's a really funny story, it definitely makes me want to try the game again.
The one time I played it was more or less like playing a long version of One Night Ultimate Werewolf. Not a bad time, but nothing particularly memorable happened.
This is one of the most amazing stories of this game I've ever heard. lol! Thanks for sharing!
damn, I got the chills at the end xDD amazing story!
reminder: there's a tabletop simulator mod of this game that you can play with random people, and it's an easy way of getting an experience of this game, and I loved it
Quinns holding that huge "book" as the storyteller is madness and I love it.
I am extremely lucky. I have a regular board game group that consists of roughly 30 people. I introduced BotC to the group and many of them have fell in love with it. We have multiple sessions each week, with several members serving as host. Our last game had 17 players! I can’t say enough good things about this gem!
Aaah, having a big group of friends over. Good times...
Would very much like to see a SU&SD play through of this (one day when social distancing is a thing of the past). It would help me understand what makes this game good.
Check out the NRB playthroughs, so good
As someone who has now delved _deep_ into BotC, seeing Quinns dance while everyone has their eyes closed to pad out the end of the night is the most relatable thing I've seen
I'm rewatching this video with my retail copy - I remember when this video came out, there was a lot of criticism about how it doesn't explain how it's different from other social deduction games, and now I'm finding that it's been in the video all along. There are a ton of thoughtful little rule tweaks that make it a collective puzzle rather than an exercise in paranoia and lying to your friends - which means a very complex game state for the Storyteller to keep track of, hence the felt-backed tokens.
Honestly love to hear this. I feel like SUSD got so much flack for this review for fairly middling reasons, as if it was abhorrent for someone's favorite game to not match your tastes. Now that it is actually in people's hands, I'm glad people are popping up here and there to say, no, Quinns actually had a point.
This was art. Jokes, ambience, excellent camera, script and overall passion for the game. Wow. Great work
having now gotten my copy of blood on the clocktower, i have to say that quinns' controversial opinion that this might be the best board game of all time is worryingly accurate. this game is so good
I finally also got to play it, and I really cannot see the justification for this level of praise for the game.
It is a great game, for sure. But at the end of the day, it's basically a deluxe version of Werewolf, or a long version of One Night Ultimate Werewolf.
I can really only see Blood on the Clocktower being a great time at a convention where you can get a high player count and have a nice, big space to play it at. At home, I would rather play multiple rounds of ONUW, or Spyfall, or Werewords, or some other hidden traitor game.
@@lkjkhfggd you've got a lot to say for a person who has only played it once.
@@jjmj4971 Lol it really wasn't a whole lot to say. Do you think 3-5-ish sentences is a lot?
Do you think you have to play a game many times before you can have a valid opinion? I would happily play BotC again if I could, but that's part of the problem. It has a high minimum player count. Even if I owned the game I would never get groups that large together. I'd also probably have to be the storyteller, which is not my preference.
It's a great game to play at conventions though!
@@lkjkhfggd no I've just seen your other comments where you're typing about how much you didn't find it that great. You don't need to wax lyrical about a game you have barely experienced the surface level of.
Also; BoTC doesn't require a high player count, it needs 6 at least, that really isn't that high.
@@jjmj4971I went and looked through the comments on here and only saw one other one from me, and I didn't say much there either. It wasn't even particularly negative of a comment.
Playing the game a 2nd time is not going to radically change any of my thoughts on it. 1 play is enough to have a valid opinion on this game. A complex game may require a 2nd play if the first play was basically just learning the rules.
Also, 6 is a lot of people, a lot of people to have play this game and have a meh time due to not enough players. General consensus is the game is best at 8-12, which is definitely a lot of people. I've got lots of other social deduction games that thrive at 6 players.
Sounds like the moderator role is more of a DM than just telling people to close their eyes. As such the components seem designed to work with that concept of this player having to be mobile, stealthy, and have enough options to accommodate late players as well as impaired players. The laminated hand outs are designed to have wine spilled on them. The tokens are designed to stick to the narrators box while he moves about the room. Yes a cheaper version could easily be made, but it doesn't seem like the experience they want to make. If they decide not to make a discount version of the game with smaller cardstock handouts, a smaller slimmer box, and maybe some sort of cheaper moderator tool I'm sure some resourceful person or company will (assuming the game is as good as it seems).
I agree the components are nice but it's still very overpriced. Consider that it would still be an expensive game if it were half the price. Laminated paper and felt don't cost that much!
The game looks really interesting but I have a few reservations:
1) The game is highly dependent on your group and especially the story teller. I feel like if some/most players are inexperienced it will not go well.
2) Dying early still seems like a big problem. Yes, you get ONE more vote, but you lose your power and basically get taken out of the game. If this happens early on, you're basically sitting around for 2 hours watching your friends play a game. This is the reason that I don't play Mafia/Werewolf and I don't see that it's been solved here.
3) A high player count (8+) ensures that this game will not hit the table enough for most people. That's especially a problem with point 1 because it's the type of game that requires multiple plays to really understand the depth of the roles.
4) I have to mention the price. $95+ for a game like this is extremely steep. I think they should have included a cheaper base version with fewer bells and whistles so that more people could afford it.
Overall, while it looks like a lot of fun for the right group, I just cannot see this working for the majority of people, myself included.
Agreed. I think Quinns is really excited to share this game with us because of how particularly unique the Storyteller is, and he's somewhat right to- a GM in a deduction game is new and clever and certainly never been done before, but to insinuate that a game like this deserves to exist because of how unique and even amazing to play one part of the game is and that criticizing it means you "don't love the hobby" is silly. Great ideas don't live and die with individual games. I highly doubt BoTC is the last game we will ever see with this mechanic just because it is the first.
What I mean to say is that I feel what BoTC does can probably be distilled. Each of those individual scenarios could have been the base game on its own merit, and the rest could have been expansions. The variability you get here feels like a deluxe edition for a base game that costs maybe $30. The felt book is ridiculous and not at all necessary- an erasable marker and board would've done just fine. Even the player count- I don't see why you couldn't have that Storyteller role in a deduction game that plays best with 5 or 4 or even 3 other people and have it work well. I think if we wait around a few years someone will make a deduction game in the same vein (maybe even the same designers will do it) that is more elegant, more distilled, and much more approachable than this beast that will, at least for most of us, only ever be played at conventions.
Hey! I’ve been playing this game for a while and am an experienced storyteller from Sydney: to answer:
1) A more experienced storyteller definitely enhances the game, and of course you’re required to know the rules and how the characters work. It’s very in depth but we all start somewhere. I’ve seen many inexperienced storytellers run equally as exciting games. It’s very accessible
2) nope. There are good characters who’s sole purpose is to die to get info - and it’s incredibly satisfying when it happens. Because dying has been associated with negative gameplay experience in usual social deduction games, it’s hard to conceptualise that it’s not here. Most players will die in every game. The two most powerful things in this game is your voice and your vote - use them correctly and win for your team. The level of satisfaction is equal, if not higher, when you die and still win for your team. This is what sets it apart.
3) yes you need a high player count.
4) I understand why people don’t want to back this at the purchase price when the general view of social deduction games are werewolf and mafia. When you play this, you’ll be able to make a much more sound decision on its value :)
@@cloyphishs1049 "There are good characters who’s sole purpose is to die to get info" That doesn't necessarily address the problem if you're not one of those characters, and I'd assume from watching the video that those characters are not the norm. Someone will die early through basically no fault of their own, and unless they got lucky in drawing that kind of role, the game may still end up being a negative experience for them, no?
I'm not saying that dying in this game MUST be terrible by the way, I'm sure it handles it better than Mafia or Werewolf. My point is simply that if you're running this game with a certain group, it's likely that that group is already okay with dying in Mafia and Werewolf- I feel that volunteer bias is being slightly ignored here.
I understand. As I said, it’s hard to conceptualise if the social deduction benchmark is mafia and werewolf. Yes, there are characters who would rather not die, which adds to the necessity for the good team to pull of bluffs for the demon to not kill them or for them not to be executed. There are so many ways this can be played. As I said, most people will die in a game, but this is a game of teamwork. Whereas werewolf’s consequence of dying is “you don’t get to play anymore”, clocktower’s consequence is “I feel safe to share my info”, or “I can be seemingly more trusted”.
And yes it can be viewed as a negative experience to die early, and many who initially have that experience do so because they initially link the connotations of dying with those of werewolf, but by the time the game ends, they end up jumping up and celebrating their team’s win, they have already realised that their death did not negatively impact their experience, and potentially even enhanced it
Seems fun but also super expensive for what we get, plus that huge box makes for pretty insane shipping costs as well, for a game that you need a pretty big group of people to play...
It is an insanely fun game, I got to play it recently and it is hands down in my top five favorite boardgames, and definitely my favorite deception based game. It's definitely expensive but if you can afford it, it's tons of fun
Aye all true. I guess for me I just know I'll get my money's worth- lots and lots of time spent playing it. I'm not aware of the calculations used to arrive at the price but I know the team somewhat, and an ethic of getting it played as much as possible would definitely have been in play so I can't imagine the high price is caused by greed.
@@eamonnoflaherty2 I'm guessing the box and it's lining are probably the reason for the crazy price.
@@marcosfernandesdesousajuni9576 It would be part of it for sure. From my perspective that speaks of staying true to the vision. I'm glad it's worked out so far.
@@eamonnoflaherty2 If the game could be significantly cheaper (and I have a hard time believing it couldn't be!), then wouldn't be better for it to be? Its not like the components add anything to the game itself...in fact, they could probably cut the cost of the game in half by selling the tokens, with an app for the Storyteller, instead of the box. They could even lock the app behind a game purchase using promo codes or something.
Also, I think the number of groups who can regularly field 10+ players for an hour and a half long game is going to be pretty rare.
As part of a gaming group that struggles to find games big enough for us all to play (6-8 regulars, plus the occasional partner) this has me really exited!
As a frequent Werewolf moderator I gotta say even just the description of the storyteller’s role was enough to set my heart on this game. I’m in no position to buy it now and am about to move but if I can get it and find a group in my new area I would be delighted to play this game
an update for anyone scrolling through: I bought it the other day. Beautiful game. Running the first sessions with a very enthusiastic group with week.
how did it go?@@SamA-gh3kq
@@SamA-gh3kqhow was it?
@@BacchusGames it’s been amazing with my group; lots of great memories and now a quick suggestion for almost all cocktail nights we host
What a lovely surprise in the morning here. Love your work, everyone!
Hello Quinns, We are going to try this game with a group that contains "Non Gamers". I mentioned Quinn's loves this game to a friend. She told me to invite you, not realizing you are my 'celebrity friend' and I only almost touched your shirt at SHUX. She thought if i asked nicely you might come?? Just asking as she insisted I asked. We are going to try it online, so we dont have to buy you an airline ticket.
We are playing again. I told my friend you sent your regards. I didnt want to crush her gentle spirit with disappointment.
In order to play this I would need about 8 people who like to lie in social games; are those included in the giant box? No? Back to board games it is.
New tentative release date is May 2022. Maybe. Don't hold your breath.
Two years later and still haven’t received my copy…
Have you received your copy?
@@dhruboisgood yeah I finally received it late last year.
Im hoping there might be, or at some point be, a digital edition of this. Especially with the ongoing pandemic. But getting a bunch of discord friends together over a call and playing this sounds absolutely fantastic.
Check update #40 on their kickstarter page.
if you dont know already, town of salem can act as a great supplement.
When i bought this game i thought i get to play it the 1 time for my birthday. But no within 2 month i had played 20+ games across several nights. Every single person ive played could not get enough
✨😃🌙 If you talk over new players, you may die in the night 🌙😃✨
I was fully onboard and keen until the price, a game requiring that many players will sadly only get played rarely so I’m struggling to justify it. Edit:Just checked it’s $30 shipping too and probably tax on top.
Yeah, I love the idea of this but can't imagine getting a regular group to play it.
"Because I'm as pompous as a human tuba..."
I don't think I've ever laughed harder at a review
Paul looks and sounds really different now, but I'm glad he's back!
So glad I finally got to play this. All my friends and I enjoyed the heck out of it! Thanks for the video so many years ago. It got me to back it and I’m so happy I did.
Four years ago I watched this video and it never left my mind. Having to setup a halloween themed board game night for a large group I immediately thought of it. As if by fate, a shipping of copies just landed in Europe and I managed to get my hands on one. I can't wait to try it out!
How did it go?
I´m calling BS on the statement that the components are absolutely needed for gameplay. If you want to know if the game is playable with less deluxe stuff, just wait for the release and ask someone who paid 100€ (incl shipping) if he will bring this huuuuge box with a lot of felt components to your smoky campfire. My best guess, he will find a way and turn up with a deck of cards, some printouts and a pen.
Yea, the components seem like a huge waste of money, space, and time. I played Werewolf (calling it "Mafia") for years with a few custom rules, a deck of playing cards, and no cost. 10-20 custom printed cards, a few sleeves, and a whiteboard would easily replicate this game. The components don't really add anything to the game that I can see. The candles did more for the atmosphere than the components did.
Here's my take from moderating many werewolf games. This would be a very hard task without these tokens. Imagine getting a game that is great... but nobody could moderate. That KILLS the game, so they went over board with the components just to make it so that you could 100% moderate. if you are experienced you could probably play without the whole felt and such, and with a piece of paper/ pen like you said, but you need practice with the expensive things to do that.
@@yayforjoel We've been getting a few comments from people who have never played it along the lines of "I can't see how is it different to Werewolf. Therefore, none of the components are necessary." but if you look at the comments of people who have played it, they mostly say "It is quite different to (basic) Werewolf, and the Story Teller needs help running it, which the tokens and grimoire provide."
@Hesy, that's is a weird demand. There are a lot of board games that I love that I would never take to a campfire. Can we agree it isn't a game for playing around a campfire game, and move on?
Having played it, you need the components, not all for a single game as there are four different character sits, but you would need the majority. Not only do they help keep track of the game state, they also allow for the Story Teller o issue instructions silently, some of the components are prompt cards to show to a player.
Reminds me of the board game version of Town of Salem... without the risk of Data Breaches. Love it.
Yeah it is in a lot of ways; that's actually how I found my way to BOTC. I was playing a quite early version of Salem and really liked it, and got into the genre. I was looking for a Battlestar Gallactica game and happily a group in my local area had this wonderful game brewing :)
@@eamonnoflaherty2 Yeah, I'm excited to try it out. I always felt like Salem would do real well as a board game. And this seems to fix the werewolf issue of being a narrator.
That was my first thought as well, of course we've been using a good portion of these variants to Werewolf (we call it "Mafia") for years. I don't see the components really adding anything to the game. Although I might try it with candles next time...
Seems cool, but I can't accept a polished version of werewolf as the best game ever especially for like $80 even if the bits are nice. The aspect that no one knows what's going on doesn't make the game better, it makes it random. For the same price, I could have two top selling games like Great Western Trail or Innis and frankly, this game would have to be mindboggling in both innovation and content to justify its cost especially when there are much cheaper implementations of the same concept.
Totally understand the sticker shock. I’m part of the BotC team (full disclosure) and I can assure you that this takes Werewolf and turns it on its head. Because every character matters it gives great bluffs for evil as well as reasons good characters might not want to share who they are. With Werewolf it’s almost dull to me to be good because it’s just generic good.
I have been playing and running games since 2014. And I assure you we tried everything we could think of to lower costs but at the end of the day this is what works best with the game. Some elements would limit the shelf life of the game (ala Velcro) or make drawing character tokens more likely to falter (magnets that would stick to each other). The three editions in the initial box is not to make it more expensive (the box would be the same size regardless and we’d rather give you things than empty space). We can’t control shipping or VAT.
justducky834 But what does BotC do to deserve that high price point? I have played dozens of versions of Werewolf and many of them have quite similar rules to BotC (except the gm, that appears to be unique to me).You say that every character matters as if that was some kind of revalation, but I have played at least two variants where that is also the case. Now normally I wouldn't care but what makes me a bit annoyed by this is that BotC is asking for over 100 bucks (if you include shipping) for a game that has been free for ages and does not seem to make any meaningful changes that haven't already been done before.
Yes imo price point is nowhere near where it should be for the experience you get out of it! Not one game the same not one experience not relived over and over again!!!!!
@@justducky834 So let me ask why, instead of tokens that are crowded with words, you didn't use cards (which are easy to shuffle, easier to read and cheaper)? And why, instead of this oversized box with felt (and felt is amazingly cheap, btw), you couldn't have developed a simply app or used tried and true methods such as pen & paper or dry erase? Everyone keeps saying this is the only way it worked, but no one seems to be able to say why. You can't ask the public to just trust you (a brand new untested company) that your game is worth the money you say it is, when it seems clearly not!
How about $0 for the same game without needing to have a big box with you? lycanthropic.org
I like the game itself, but I hate the art, the graphic design, the giant player box, and the big player sheets with the tiny text. While it feels like they spent a lot of time developing the game itself, they didn’t do near enough evolving the components that make up a game. At least not to justify a $100 Kickstarter.
Hopefully the new version will address that. It's never been an issue for me personally, as so much of the game is interacting with others.
@@eamonnoflaherty2 Oh your problems will be addressed. Just look through their updates on their kickstarter.
I feel like this is only Quintin's favorite game because he is, and I think he's even admitted to this, an Alpha gamer. Being the storyteller for this fulfills that Alpha Gamer itch.
You might be right, and he maybe should have disclosed that in the video. Maybe in a devoted segment describing the unique experience of being the storyteller, and the fun and joy he got from controlling the flow of the game? He could have compared it to other games he's run in the past, for example. Missed opportunity.
I understand the message you're putting across but..."Alpha gamer" is such a cringeworthy term!
if that is the case then what is wrong with playing dungeons and dragons?
@@funkoxen D&D is a much bigger investment upfront, in terms of time and brain power...
But if this is his "favorite board game" and it's something bordering on an RPG, maybe it's time Quinns bites the bullet and plays some D&D.
Will we get a playthrough on the channel?
so its STILL Just Werewolf with some of the Internets favourite Houserules you can get for free in hundreds of places
Have u played it?
With the addition of the storyteller it seems like almost an entirely different game.
I almost throught it was an April fools joke
The storyteller is a houserule and basically integral part of a good game of werewolf.
Amazing that this is news to anyone.
Well if it's that easy, then take your favorite houserules and start a kickstarter yourself?
I liked the video before it reached 21:00 where the "talk over new players" bit was. I wish i could like the video a second time just from that. XD
I've had my eye on Blood on the Clocktower since you mentioned it in a podcast and I desperately want to get it, but I feel like I only have like... 5 friends I see regularly, and I live with 3 of them! All of these interesting deduction games (and this one is truly thigh rubbingly good) always get me excited for board games, and also friends I don't have.
I mean you can play with 5- it'll give you a fine introduction to it. My hope for Backers will be they'll experience what w have in Sydney, and the games appeal will bring people in and inspire them to stay. It did for me :)
MY COPY FINALLY ARRIVED AFTER 3 YEARS
I CAN'T WAIT TO PLAY
11:50 Excellent sword play dear boy....Excellent.
TBH, I'd rather buy Gloomhaven for that kind of price. And I don't think Blood on the Clocktower is even close to being worth $95 in components + box. Thanks for the review though!
I'd imagine the felt backed counters and box are the main driving force of the price.
I backed Tainted Grail after days ..weeks of grueling grumbling and research...a 1000 of hours game play for 115.. this not so much.
I backed Age of Steam for $82 shipping included, comes with 10 maps and mini poker chips. That's been the most money I've dropped on a single game to date. I have no reservations about that...I wouldn't pay more than $60 for this.
id actually like a review of dirty grail. i'm on the fence between late backing that or getting gloomhaven.
Have you played it I as you all this simple question? You buy a game not just for components but for the experience and every single person that like social deduction I know love the heck out of this game come on! Play then review the price again!!!
Lol, it's still in production.
True, but have you seen the previews of the final designs?
@@benji-menji yes. But I'm convinced that we will still be talking about how cool it's gonna be one year from now.
@@BruceRose ._.
As an individual that really dislikes social deduction games because I’m terrible at lying and get VERY anxious doing so, I’m still interested at least in the moderator role. Kind of wish they would have addressed my ilk, but that may be hard when the entire SUSD team likes social deduction games!
In the past SU&SD have really liked games but not recommended them due to their high price (e,g, Container among others). I'm not sure yet if this will get played often enough to justify that price (if only it was the 78 dollars,..the shipping adds a lot). You could get One night Ultimate Werewolf and Two rooms and a boom, and you will still have money left to get the Resistance and Secret Hitler. I really need to think about getting this one.
Yeah the shipping is insane for most of Europe and ROW
Mark the UK got off easy, EU is 35 to 45
And yeah splitting the cost can solve any problem, but the shipping is still mind bogglingly high
@@marks6928 but if you split the cost of 3 games that's also very affordable. Still leaves the question if this game is worth 3 other games in the same genre?
It's an excellent point that for the same money you can get a variety of amazing social deduction games
People keep buying these party games like isn't easier to just actually kill your friend irl smdh
Just ordered this! It seems amazing.
I adore social deduction/deception games... but my plays of Blood on the Clocktower left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Between the noise created by an overwhelming number of roles all trying to speak their conflicting truths at once, the utter unreliability of most role's information, and the high chance that information is being actively tampered with or destroyed by some player abilities or even the Moderator, it felt like there was no opportunity for any meaningful deduction to be had in this social deduction game. Rather, each round just felt like riding a cascade of chaos where no logical foundations could be built.
This is the kind of impression I got watching the review and reading what people had to say about it (even positively). It looks so chaotic and so intimidating in scale that people like me who do not actively seek out social deduction games with big groups- people who are more introverted or calculated in their approach- may just not have anything here to sink their teeth into and may actively despise the game for being just too much to be asked to throw themselves into. My whole group is similar in that respect, and we enjoy the lighter social deduction games a lot, ones where you can really be clever and even perfectly solve the puzzle on occasion, but BoTC definitely looks like the kind of game for alpha gamers and extroverts who can dive headfirst into and just ride the chaos. I don't know, I'd still love to try this game at least once, but I'm definitely not backing it.
This really looks way too busy and overproduced.
I'm really sorry to had a bad experience and felt that there was no deduction. I've had many MANY games where I've been the one to personally piece it together and many many others where I've seen it come together. You truly can put it together, I do understand at the start it is very overwhelming though
I remember being pretty overwhelmed yeah, and it is complex and chaotic at times, but it's not utter chaos. Sorry to hear you didn't have a fun time Andor :(
Any social deduction game like Werewolf or The Villagers can get out of hand if the moderator doesnt keep the flow going. Gamers can get into and endless conversation of theories if a moderator let's them go on and on. Sounds like that's what you experienced.
Cool video, I like how you set the mood with he candles! Thumbs up to mohawk guy serving us Chester Bennington in the Papercut video
I’ve watched nearly every review and listened to every podcast. SU&SD has been incredibly harsh on expensive or overproduced games. Harsh…. But FAIR. It’s been far harsher than I care about but I always respected SU&SD because they clearly established their values and were consistent with them.
SU&SD spent many written reviews and podcasts completely ragging on CMON for their overproduced games, reviews like Ex Libris and Time Stories where price was at the CENTRE of the issue on whether they recommended it, and constantly voicing displeasure with the trend of expensive Kickstarters and telling people they should be cautious when backing. They constantly tried to fight board games exclusionary aspects with price being one of the main issues.
After watching games I like a lot get put down and not recommended for price, I still went “You know what, it’s still fair, and they’re consistent with their values”. But when a game THEY love gets the overproduced $100 Kickstarter price tag when there are social deduction alternatives for a fraction of the cost…. Instead of being as critical they were with other games, they went and tried to justify the cost. It feels odd when they balked at Miniatures increasing price but then praised “Real felt, and laminated sheets!”. I don’t like inconsistency in values.
I will say this though. I was worried about the new SU&SD staff after watching The Estates live stream, they seemed a bit too shy. That’s been put to bed. Fantastic articulation and oration in this review. Was a pleasure to listen to.
Yeah, especially since the components in this game really don't need to be so flashy. Why 3 sets of roles plus extra? Just go with one and leave the others as deluxe/expansions. Why a felt lined book? Just use a board and erasable markers. They don't need to be flashy in a CMON game either, maybe you could argue there is a bit of extra purpose here (easier to handle or organize for the Storyteller) beyond just looking cool, but I feel like SUSD are raving about it so much more just because it's social deduction and they've always loved social deduction the most. This feels like a package that could have been distilled into $30 or $40- I'd even take it at $50. But $80 plus shipping? That's pretty ridiculous.
It is worth noting there are resources for a free print and play version.
@@nashwinston1395 Well then 80 dollars really feels insane.
Yeah, I love SU&SD reviews, but I was annoyed at his “if you care about the hobby” comment about the price. Yeah, I care about the hobby but I know enough about games to not want to drop triple digits on the very best iteration of a genre I don’t care for. I’m happy that he’s excited about this but let’s also acknowledge this game is definitely not for everybody.
Yes I feel incredibly uncomfortable regarding their approach to the price section too. When Quinns started mentioning the price was $79, I genuinely thought he would lay into it for being pricey and overproduced.
Compare this to their Twilight Imperium 4th Edition review. That's a game that has tons of stuff, which could be called "if anything cheap" by the same logic he justified the price of the game in this video.
In the Twilight Imperium review he dug into the price, talked about how it was, and offered the alternative of buying the 3rd edition to get mostly the same experience at a lower cost.
I'm sure Blood on the Clocktower is good, but it would have been nice to see a similar point made when discussing the price. With little effort, you could play a game of mafia at home that is 80% the experience you get with this game for no cost whatsoever.
I'm not a huge mafia fan, but other commenters who are seem to be saying that with a little more effort, you could include enough house rules to get an experience that's 95% what you get with this game.
It's just disappointing to see their normal apprehension on pricey games like this go out the window. Whether or not it was mindful and intentional, it's hard to say. But they said themselves this video came from a place of them wanting this game to get funded, and that absolutely influenced it's production.
20:36 oh wow, that perfect spreading technique
are we not going to talk about the dude mastering the blade in the background?
More importantly the dog mastering the treat next to him
He's practicing the ancient martial art of colonial Britons: Chai Tea
In Brighton it is normal to see a guy in a manbun practising slo-motion kendo accompanied by a Siberian husky down the park. Its just that kind of place, like San Francisco.
Ha! I was thinking the same thing. Even if I had a giant sword (sighs wistfully) I'm far too self conscious to think to myself "You know, I need to take this down to the park and work on my moves".
Been playing the game almost nightly over discord and it has been awesome biggest group we have had was 6 so the games should not go on for long and the first few games were like that not lasting more than 15 minutes but now each game of 5-6 lasts at least an hour and a half and the game is one of the best ive played and I always enjoy being a character or even the storyteller
~If you talk over new players,
you might die in the night.~
Love the review folks, and I'm glad to find out about a good social game while it can still be bought/participated in rather than months after.
Is this a paid preview? I hope it is not. SUSD is one of my favourite reviewers however if going paid previews or reviews or creating anticipation for Kickstarters because of a vested interest, it really will put their integrity into question for future reviews. Hopefully not.
It doesn't help that every comment thread is full of play -testers trying to persuade people to buy the game/ justify the ridiculous price/ hype it further
This is what I thought too. I was waiting for it to be mentioned at some point.
@@classicsubmarineguy5477 Yeah, especially since they aren't particularly good at directly addressing people's concerns. No one has definitively answered why magnets or markers wouldn't work instead of felt. They all say something along the lines of it not working as well, which is probably true, but is it really THAT much worse that it's worth it to mass produce a risky, never before tried component as a first time designer and publisher, particularly one that only affects one person in the game? It feels more like the designers are being self-indulgent here to not compromise their "vision", which is a shame because it's just going to make this game that much less accessible for people to experience. It's such an obvious criticism and yet Quinns is saying I hate the hobby because I want more people to be able to try this game. Those tradeoffs are worth looking at, and to not only not address them but to vilify anyone who does address them is just pretentious.
@@StyxTBuferd Or why felt is so expensive all of a sudden? Economies of scale mean felt is more expensive when I buy it retail, so why can I easily obtain this much felt for far less than $1 but they have to pump the price of a $20-40 game to $80 plus huge shipping costs?!
yeah, i think i read a comment saying that magnets wouldnt work as they would stick together in the bag, so i guess polarity works differently in australia, as well as felt being pound for pound more valuable than gold.
I backed mythic battles (which SUSD did not review, for reasons of cost and availability, and just seemed to dismiss in preview, which is fine as they made their kickstarter policy clear) and for the same cost got two huge boxes full of some of the best miniatures i have ever even seen, a great game and a tonne of cardboard. Im guessing this game is not being manufactured in China, like most other kickstarters or something, but it just doesnt seem right.
I'm having a hard time seeing how this is different than WW in any meaty way. When my friends and I play WW we are all given a power and given a townsperson/werewolf identity, and it seems like that's what this adds.
The gohst mechanics maybe? I don't get it too.
Having played this it's the miss-information that makes this amazing. You can never be certain of anything. You or someone you trust might know something but it'll turn out you were poisoned that night or drunk the entire game. Another mechanic not covered in this reveiw was outsiders - a handfull of roles that you know there is only one of (varies based on player number) you'll catch people in lies because two different people secretly told you they were an outsider but then there is another role that adds 2 additional outsiders to the game so you're just never quite certain. Yes it's like warewolf but the roles are just so much better thought out. No one is ever just a plain vanilager.
Having played this, I can confirm it’s massively different to werewolf. The fact that you can contribute the whole way through is huge. And the uncertainty provided by the storyteller makes things so hilarious and unpredictable. In lockdown I’ve been playing a ton on discord, and after a game I normally log back on over the following few days, as we’ll often be discussing the game way after it’s over.
I don't really get it. Most of these ideas were used in The Werewolves of Miller's Hollow: The Pact. They even have day time powers and special events. Maybe the story teller has an easier job component-wise in this one but other than that I fail to see the novelty this brings...
My copy of this arrived today! been sooo keen to get into this!
Ive played this at PAXAUS 2 years in a row now, its always been a blast
Am I the only one a little uncomfortable with SUSD doing a full review of a game not only not yet available in retail, but currently on Kickstarter? Did Quinn say that they playtested the game?
We talked a bit about our decision to do this in donor newsletter #33, if you donate to us!
In short, we made an exception to our policy of not reviewing Kickstarter games because we felt that we'd found something truly special with this game, and wanted to ensure the crowdfunding didn't fail because we felt the hobby would be poorer for it.
@@shutupandsitdown Sorry, I just realized that for reasons I don't know I stopped reading the newsletter #33 at Matt thoughts of Tramways... Thank you for the reply. I understand your point. Yet, I retain some doubts "promoting" what it seems to be the first Kickstarter of a new gaming company, with some unique production challenges relating to the one-of-a-kind Grimoire.
@@corrado4679 That also seems to be unbelievably overpriced. I'm sorry, but felt really isn't that expensive, and adhering it to the box is as simple as applying the right glue. I get that things change as the scale of production increases, but the fact is we live in the computer age. It seems like an app would make for a much better aid than this box does, and would likely reduce the price of the game to a more standard $40ish dollars, if not less. My guess is the company was afraid people wouldn't buy a game with nothing but some tokens and player aids. But I think the people willing to pay this much for so little will be even less.
@@amethystwolf24572 I'd much prefer to have this game for $79 than the latest mini-tastic thing from CMON. To each his own.
@@shutupandsitdown Don't you think it's a bit strange to outwardly say you did this video in part to sell the Kickstarter? That isn't really your job as a reviewer and it's part of the reason this video is leaving some people feeling icky.
It's great if you love the game, but I'm not sure we want you to sell it to us. We want an honest review that lets us come to our own conclusion.
I love social deduction games (: Maybe this isn't that different from a modified mafia I've played many a time, but the passion and stories that come out in this review are just too fun. That little outdoors sketch was straight out of one of my games. Major props to Kyrie for an excellent first review! P.s love the lighting.
I could echo the concerns about cost and player counts, all of which I do share, but I'll abstain from adding to the pile.
took a few years but I finally got my copy today!
Finally got my copy today! I'm already planning the party to introduce this to my group!
Who did Quinn sell his soul to for this flat AND enough time for boardgame reviews?
Viewers
...pretty certain this is how he makes a living...
He's actually selling your soul.
I want to live there.
Really glad to see you focusing on the host here - with all the talk and not much elucidation, I was wondering how much of the success I've heard tell was due to a good game and how much was due to a solidly trained corps of hosts - should be interesting to see if they can teach anyone to host to this level.
Hi Sera, as someone who is part of the storytelling corps of play testers, I can tell you that Storytelling can be taught to basically anyone. I learned by watching over the shoulder of a more experienced person maybe twice, then having them watch over my shoulder once, and then I was off. One of the great things about this game is its complexity - and what that does is it lets the Storyteller make mistakes as they're learning that don't ruin the experience for everyone else. So is it one or the other? It's probably both, to some extent. But I'm definitely in the "good game" camp.
@@davidstefano2709 hello David, do you have any tips for the host/storyteller?
This video is a work of art, almost as much as the game itself
Price update: the game has 3 story playstyle booklets. And costs 145 USD
I don't buy it, just sounds like a werewolf hack that might work reasonably well
As of now it is still in pre-production with no end in sight... a used werewolf I got was great fun for 10 euros.
What you got there, Sonny Jim, is a great group of gamers.
My copy finally came this week, I'm back trying to remember what rhe heck I bought 3 years ago
I see a few people in the comments questioning the claim that you can play after you’re dead. As someone who has played a fair bit of this game, you absolutely can meaningfully play all the way through, alive or dead. In fact, sometimes you gain more credibility from dying in a certain way (eg if you die at night early on, you must be good, because the demon wouldn’t target one of their minions! Unless.... you are
actually evil, and the demon just wants us to think you’re good!?)
I can’t stand werewolf because of the “die and you’re out” mechanic, but I can categorically say that’s not the case in this game. I’ve always been invested in the games I’ve played, right up to the final outcome, and I’ve always been dying to find out what’s actually happened and what’s been a lie.
I'm going to play this game this afternoon with 14 others. Looking forward to it!
10:17 That is SAVAGE game design. I love it.
I want a play through of this immensely. And then another. And then another!
You should do a livestream playthrough of this game!
pedro15305 Let’s do this !!!
Not sure how that'd work as all the constant conversations and side-bars for this type of game.
@@crocosnz3322 Yeah, it would be hard to work out. I posted this comment before finishing the video, lol. I would like to see it, but I understand that it is probably not possible.
Agreed that I would love to see a play through, though it would be complex. But then again, you live streamed TI and had a separate solo cam room. Perhaps a designated room for sidebars with devoted cam setup might make that work. Since you’d edit such a video, pauses in gameplay as the Storyteller meets privately etc. would be eliminated for viewers at least. Perhaps a minimum sized player group would aid production of a play through too? I hope SUSD could work this out. Great game review, in any case, and you’ve got me looking into the KS. I enjoyed Imptern Kylie’s addition, too.
I could almost see this work how they do reality tv shows (I hate those shows but this might be the right format). So you film as much random footage as possible and then you add interview sections in the middle to try and capture what someone was thinking at that particular moment.
Love this review. I collect board games for those one of a kind experiences
Which is why I am excited about this. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
so you are telling me that that family dinner game we used to play with UNO cards is selling like hotcakes on kickstarter? No jokes me, my siblings and cousins used to play it and called it a night at pelermo. The baddy is not a demon just a mafia boss and the roles are the exact same. Kinda weird actually
Just got my copy can’t wait to play it!
Always have to remember that especially with social deduction games the group you are playing with can be as important as the game. I don't doubt that SUSD had an incredible time, but they also have the ability to conjour 10+ willing friends who are funny and get along. My main group is 2 or 4/5 so instantly anything with a player count like this is out for us but I can see why they would like it so much with the way they were able to play it
you can still play with 5 people as minimum but you would need to be REALLY good players for that.
Even if this wasn't just some unique variant of Werewolf (because let's be honest, it is) $95+ for that little amount of components is a bit iffy.
I'm not sure- a difference by degree but at some point it just becomes a very significant difference. I feel good about getting a copy because of the thought involved in making what is a great game, and the hours and hours I know I will enjoy of it.
I do think making an educated purchase is best, so hopefully a Grimoire will make it's way near to you, and you'll hear the inevitable call for more players :) Presumably with the success of the Kickstarter thus far the fulfillment section will go smoothly and you'll get a chance to try it before considering a retail version.
everything mentioned in the Video i have seen in Werewolf games years ago . people are modifying the Game and adding roles all the time
They did a five minute explanation as to why it isn't just as variant of werewolf. It seems most of the comment section will need to play it before they're convinced otherwise!
@@Virolaxion - The thing is, that explanation *didn't* explain how it's different than werewolf. This game is Werewolf: The Pact with a couple of the most common/popular house rules. "The Pact" is the set of base Werewolf with it's three expansions that add roles and events and such; and it's $40.
Explain the $60 difference between that game and how 'different' BotC is?
TheMrVengeance I took the time to research Werewolf: the pact and I will note the key differences:
1. In The Pact, roles are revealed after death
2. The Pact has a very standard role list. It is very similar to typical werewolf’s, while BotC has a very unique role list. There are also some villagers that literally have no power.
3. BotC has the poisoned/drunk feature, meaning roles can have their abilities misfire.
4. BotC has minions that assist the demon with special abilities.
5. The storyteller in BotC isn’t just a robotic moderator, he gets to make interesting role combinations.
6. You can talk and vote once past death in BotC
7. BotC gives the demon a unique power, while the powers of the werewolves in The Pact are basic. I implore you to look up the role “Vortox” in BotC and tell me with a straight face that they are the same game.
Despite the fact that I only named 7 differences, those differences are incredibly important in making BotC the best social deduction game that has ever been, in my opinion. I think one major problem with people looking at BotC is that they see the price and blow their expectations out of proportion. I will be the first one to tell you that it is completely overpriced, but that doesn’t mean the game is just some knockoff. I play it on the unofficial discord for free, which solves the problem of th unreasonable price and the problem with getting enough people together to play.
It would have been an insta-buy solely based on how excited you guys were. The KS page cooled me down to basically a cold 'no' with the $45 shipment cost to Central EU. I could have a perfectly good big box game and a copy of Resistance: Avalon just for this amount, not to mention the horrendous game price itself. It's a shame that no-one designed this game to be reasonably priced. I would have loved to have it.
Esp since it could be recreated with ease at home!
@@amethystwolf24572 yah, then recreate it. The rules are all online, my friend made it at home for like 15 bucks
14:49 -- I see Dice Throne there! I'm SO crossing my fingers that you guys will review this game as it's probably my FAVOURITE GAME OF ALL TIME! (S1+S2 as they're really the same game in my mind)
So we're just gonna ignore the swordmaster training in the park?
Nope, I have seen him many times already just rewatching the video.
Entertaining review as always, not a game for me, but as others have said a playthrough would be fun to watch.
Yeah I keep on picturing like a professional poker game sort of thing- where we can see their roles. Considerably more complicated though...
The fact that this game still isn’t out yet...
Makes me kinda worried about buying it. Do they ship worldwide?
Yeah, 2020 had it blocked with production. But its suppost to drop November 2021
@@Kaiser-wi6uk changed to April 2022. For now.
This is my favorite review of yours
Watched this video like 5 times now. I've never played nor will I ever likely play but it looks so good and I love this video.
Don't worry, you are not the only one. None of their backers are likely to ever play this game either :D They keep delaying and by the look of it, the game was more done when the kickstarter started, than it is now. This is really frustrating.
@@the_legend_of_Melo We are actually on the final stretch. Pre-production is coming to a close and the game is being brought to everyone later this year. If you look at the new designs in their updates the difference is massive.
Edit 10 months later: Now it's coming. Nothing can stop it now. :)
@@benji-menji In retrospect this was false and the time is once again extended
@@BRNRDNCK Yah, but I'm still excited. I can belive they need the time.
I hosted one of the BotCT crew at our house last year when they were touring the US cons and got to play this 3-4 times - we invited over friends and neighbors and had groups of 6+. It was freaking awesome, and so addictive. For those of you saying you can’t gather a large group, 6 players is fine, and once folk get involved, your group is likely to grow.
It’s far superior to Werewolf, and absolutely worth the cost.
3 Years after watching this and ordering the game its finally arrived!
After watching this video over three years ago and deciding to kickstart, my copy just arrived. Let's see if it will live up to three years of hype.
Better than Twilight Imperium IV? Really?
Well, that's not that hard now, is it? XP
I'm sure it was just a post first game high. Quinns has more recently resumed singing the praises of Concordia (and rightfully so).
By far yes
I remember when this video came out. I said out loud $125 for werewolf? The SUSD boys have officially sold out.
Fast forward three years later, I can't imagine my life without this game in it. The SUSD crew nailed this out of the park. I should never have questioned their integrity. They were right and I was wrong. Love this game.
I hope that guy won the fight with the tree creature at 12:00
Sounds fun, wish i actually had enough friends to play it
I mean the game seems fun and pretty good, but I don't really get why you guys are praising it so much. Its seems like yet another werewolf variant, maybe better than most other but still nothing not seen before.. Also the price. 80$ for a game that have no board, figurines etc ? Its definitely not cheap, especially when most werewolf variant cost less than 20$.
To be honest, at first i thought Kylie was part of the tea that made the game and was thinking that you were being every generous because of that.
You actually don’t realised how flawed and unplayable werewolf is until you play Blood on the Clocktower. This is not a variant, it’s next level social deduction where everyone is involved 100% of the time
Cloyphish S okay. That’s good to hear. Personally i don’t really like werewolf, i prefer other more different games like Avalon, so I do realize how « unplayable » it is. I just did not see how this one fixed the werewolf genre. If i get a chance i’ll definitely give it a try, but i dont wanna spent $80 in it at the moment.
Mark Sosbe Damn mandella effect !
Mark Sosbe my apologies - I should justify what I mean by “unplayable”. Personally, I really enjoyed werewolf. After playing this, I can’t enjoy werewolf at all.
@@cloyphishs1049 Not gonna lie, you sound like you have been paid off. Warewolf is a pretty solid game and if you have issues with the basic rules then you can find dozens of rules variants (most of which are free including my favorite: secret hitler). BotC adds very little to werewolf that has not been done before, and for over $100 (if you include shipping) I must admit it I fail to believe that it is worth it.
I knew from day one I could never get this: just don't have that many people to play on a consistent basis to justify a Social deduction game with 90+ roles. It certainly appears to be a great evolution of werewolf/mafia.
I also don't think it's fair to say that people should NOT make the argument that it is overpriced - if you "care" about this hobby. And its not just 79 bucks, as a KS you also have to include the Shipping cost. Here in Canada it is $99 USD - the equivalent of $130 Canadian (that's Gloomhaven territory). Also the theme seems quite overplayed.
But great review and I am glad you guys enjoyed it thoroughly (and that Quinns has a new favourite game), I ALWAYS look forward to your reviews on Friday.
I think this is a case of a really good version of a very niche genre that Quinn's happens to love. Two rooms and a boom is one of his favorite games as I recall. The average person doesn't game with 8+ people because so few games support that amount. Also, social deduction is not a genre that everyone enjoys. I realize there was never a guarantee of objective criticism, but this seems to be a hype piece for a personal favorite. So this is a overblown expensive version of an activity for large groups of people that have to all like the genre. Definitely not something every gamer needs in their collection. But hey, maybe now it will make its stretch goals, right?
Awful Player To be fair, even though not everybody has access to a large group and not everybody is into social deduction games, this game does appear to be an excellent game in that large group social deduction genre. In particular the idea that the moderator is actually an active participant versus an impartial referee is terrific. It allows for things like a character who is the Drunk who firmly believes they are something else the entire game but in fact is just being told nonsense by the moderator to mess with them.
Personally I don’t get to play with large groups very often, but I did order this game based on the rules, roles and videos I’ve seen on it. To me it’s a game that even if I don’t play it very often it still gives me enjoyment simply perusing it and having it to show to friends. Obviously if I can play it more frequently that I expect that’s even better, but as a really interesting piece to add to my game library it looks to be solidly in the camp of a no brainer for me.
It seems to be a fine version of what it is. It looks like they took all the best ideas from other games of this kind and put them together in a meaningful and thought out package. However, it is still niche in that it needs a large group of people who want to play a social deduction game. It's sort of like spending a lot of money on top of the line snow skiing gear if you live a thousand miles from the nearest ski slope. Maybe you have a use for it, maybe you will make a few ski trips. You might also almost never use it. The cost is high in the realm of social deduction games, but $100 could be pocket change to some people, so that may not be an issue. You could get Two Rooms and a Boom, Ultimate Werewolf (or one night), and Resistance for less than the price of this one title. Maybe this one trumps all those for you, I'm just putting it in perspective. I wasn't doubting the quality of the game, just saying they might have been letting their own bias color the recommendation. Sure they presented a few caveats to the recommendation, but then quickly went back to saying it's not that much for what you get and it's a one of kind experience you shouldn't miss. In the grand scheme of things, I think we can look past one review that they broke their own "rules" for and had a bit of fanboyism in it. Let's just not act like this is par for the course.
"I also don't think it's fair to say that people should NOT make the argument that it is overpriced - if you "care" about this hobby."
1000 times this. This bothered me so much more than anything in any SUSD review I've ever watched. If a game idea is good, it will thrive even if the game it originates in doesn't- it's not right to tell people that this is their one and only chance at a unique experience when it may not even be an experience they want, especially if that experience can be distilled down later on into cheaper or smaller games.
@@StyxTBuferd I don't think that was the intended message. How I understood it was that if you are a staunch supporter of the hobby, you will likely find the contents of the box have a value greater then the cost associated, because you are perhaps more likely to appreciate all that it contains and is attempting to do. NOT that the argument that it is overpriced is invalid, but that he believes it overcomes that detraction. I mean, it's PART OF the section that moments before says expressly "wow, this costs a lot compared to other games of its type".
Not to invalidate your own criticism, but all the SUSD reviews I've seen over the years have been nothing short of VERY accepting and vocal of potential issues regarding accessibility, cost, quality, inclusion, and so on. I truly don't think Quinns is saying if you don't appreciate BotCT, you're not a real fan of board games.
Matt’s reaction to Quinn’s declaration is grand!
I cant wait to get my copy I've been waiting months.
Same! Even if I only get to play this occasionally, I will be very happy just making the games for future sessions.