"Well, we can't do a carbine version of the Lebel because that would reduce the tubular magazine capacity unacceptably." "No worries, I've come up with a new concept that uses a Mannlicher-style magazine." "Great, how many rounds does it hold?" "Four. Well... probably three." "... Ship it!" Ah, military procurement.
ZGryphon funny thing is that the r35 carbine (which is indeed a cut down Lebel rifle) has the exact same capacity and overall length of a Berthier carbine.
INSPECTEUR JOHNSON actually it was Bastille day for leftists, and fête de la fédération for conservatives. Nowadays we smartly avoid political confrontation and call it 'fête nationale', makes everyone happy :p
Camp Master Noob I thought it was a common misconception rather than a political disagreement, as they taught me in school What you say actually makes more sense
@@fun3000able I mean, the north did see extensive use of lever action tube magazine weapons during the civil war. Granted those were for specialized units but still, wouldn’t have been a new novel concept to the PA sharp shooters or American cavalry
I am very interested by the French rifles from WWI. I would love to collect Lebels and Berthiers. Definitely gonna need that shirt too. It's about time people acknowledged France's sacrifice during the Great War.
Ian. You really should narrate audiobooks. Any book set in just about any war scenario would be awesome. You got a captivating and calming voice for narrating. Your wast knowledge would certainly shine through while narrating. Having you narrate something like "All Quiet on the Western Front" with small bits of info addded in, would be AMAZING :-) I can't be alone in wanting this :-)
I hope you can enlighten me, Ian, because I am a bit nonplussed. I have seen on several of your videos that the cavalry of that time demanded carbines specifically designed for them and not just could use the regular examples for artillery and others. To me (and please correct me if I am wrong) it often comes down to the sling attachment positions having to be on the side instead of underneath. Many armies struggled to make a single carbine to fulfill both cavalry and auxillary roles. Yet, to me, that seems to be a very time specific problem. Only a few decades are basically prone to having this issue. And it struck me that earlier the cavalry didn't carry their carbines on the back while riding. They had carbine holsters on the saddle (which, apparently several still used or reintroduced coming WW1) and so the problem only arised with abandoning the holsters. When and why were such holsters abandoned? Because it seems it created a lot of problems - both for designers and production but also cost much in time and money.
Some countries used carbine holsters and some didn't - they would retain dirt and water, and not provide the soldier a way to carry the gun if dismounted. They were also quite convenient when you were mounted...so there are arguments both ways. The French would be no different in this regard, with three different carbine configurations (cavalry, cuirassier, and gendarmerie/artillery).
However it does not answer the question why carbines with side mounted slings were not issued then to all kind of personnel in need of smaller arms, if the place of the sling was the sole reason to give the cavalry their own version?
I have a later Berthier carbine that was sent back from Italy by my grandfathers cousin. Unfortunately going through customs, they drilled three holes into the chamber so it couldn't be shot. That didn't stop my grandfather when he was a teenager. He took the rifle to a junk yard, tied it to a tire and tied a string to the trigger and shot it. The bullet became lodged in the barrel and two holes were punched through the cartridge case. I still have the casing and the bullet which fell out of the barrel some 60ish years later. I've always wanted to fire it, but have never looked into getting the barrel fixed, even if it is possible.
My great grandfather was a cavalryman in the 17th Régiment de dragons. I assume he used one of those carbines. He was lucky to survive the war. His two younger brothers in the infantry did not have the same chance. One, Paul, got killed a couple of weeks before victory day after 4 years of a gruesome war. The other, Charles got gassed by the Germans and died in the 30s of lung injuries. Both were awarded the Croix de Guerre during their service. My family still has photographs of them and you can see the PTSD look in the eyes of Paul as the war never seemed to end. May they all rest in peace, when I feel low I think of their sacrifice and this gives me strength. Thank you Ian for your great work. Guns and canons are no toys they killed 10 millions during the Great War including 1,400,000 from my country only. Greetings from France 🇫🇷🇺🇸.
France has a fine military heritage. They won more battles than they ever lost. They were the predominant land power in Europe for centuries (Britain traditionally had a small standing army and concentrated on Naval power). France could have held out for way longer in WW2 if it wasn't for chronic infighting at the political level and the upper ranks of her military. Bad leadership is what screwed France during WW2. Very capable officers on the field being crippled by stupid orders, indecision and contradictory orders coming from the top. There was no lack of martial spirit. Yes France wasn't as evolved as Germany when it came to armor tactics but they did possess very good armor and could have mounted a far more effective defense if their officers on the field were given the flexibility to react to events as they happened and use their own initiative.
Germany was too, although not to the same extent as France. The French were a match for the German invasion force. They were better equipped too in many ways. Although their armor wasn't on par with the Germans when it came to attack, it was more than adequate for a defensive role. It was just too spread out to have any effect. Had there not been the absolute and total chaos that infected the upper levels of French leadership I have no doubt that France could have executed a very successful defense.
In addition to not being allowed such flexibility, the French tank commanders were also greatly hindered by not being given radios to coordinate with each other in the field. The equipment was available, but in yet another failure of upper-level leadership it was not provided to those who needed it most.
As much as it pains me to admit, rear guard action by French troops after France was already effectively lost is a good portion of what allowed the British Expeditionary Force to retreat and evacuate at Dunkirk. An event which in typical British fashion we have turned from the military disaster it was into a celebrated victory. We were kicked out of Europe on our arses, left without equipment or even rifles in some cases and had to rely on civilian transport. So when they put their mind to it the French can fight, honestly though they don't appear interested, Napoleon and WWI seemed to get that out of their system.
Dangerous Amoeba the early en bloc designs required a hole in the magazine (for the empty clip to fall through), which allowed mud to get into the action. They also were not double stack designs present until the Garand, requiring an extension to the magazine that could be dented. Any gun that used an en bloc could not be topped up or allow for singular loading. The en bloc clip is also the feed lip and cartridge retention system, meaning that damage to the clip would result in damage to the gun (unlike the Mauser stripper clip). The en bloc was also more expensive to produce compared to the stripper clip. Lastly, the speed of loading also depends on training and design, as the 1917 Enfield rifle were quite fast to load using stripper clips, while Mosin Nagant clips have been notoriously finicky.
Agreed. You should check the blog of Chris Hernandez, a US veteran of the Irak and Afghanistan wars. He recalls his personal experience working with the French Army and has nothing but praise for them. chrishernandezauthor.com/2013/07/09/working-with-the-french-army/ chrishernandezauthor.com/2013/07/22/photos-of-french-and-american-troops-in-afghanistan/ chrishernandezauthor.com/2012/10/08/even-god-hates-us/ chrishernandezauthor.com/2012/09/24/the-media-an-afghanistan-war-story/
Have you ever saw a Berthier carbine 1892 with what appears to be a name and 6 33 stamped in the stock behind the trigger guard? I have watched several videos on the Berthier and nobody says anything about it.
France has built some incredible small arms, that, to this day, are sadly overlooked. Of course, the good side of that is I was able to pick up an MAS 36, in very good condition, a few years ago for $150.
Frenchman can be great soldiers unfortunately their own government tends to be their worst enemy, they promote by politics and they wait to long to remove a obvious idiot from command, it cost them men and looses battles! so don't blame the ranks of brave men,just there incompetent leadership!
I forget which British historian it was who described the French cavalry carbine as (paraphrasing loosely) "a pop-gun no better than a child's toy" - was it Edward Spears writing contemporaneously or John Terraine writing long after the fact? Whoever it was, they compared it unfavourably to the SMLE. Fair enough, I guess - the SMLE holds just over three times (later twice) as many rounds in the (stripper clip fed, toppable-up) magazine, and is the abuse-proof battle rifle _par excellence_ but what they should have remembered is that when this Berthier came out, the nearest thing the Brits had was the Lee-Metford Cavalry Carbine (with six rounds), probably still being switched to from the Martini (with one), and the British Cavalry were still addicted to the sabre and lance. Their transformation into a mobile mounted recon and screening force who were willing to get off their horses and shoot it out from cover against enemy Infantry came much later (and not without a fair deal of angst).
By 'cavalry became obsolete,' Ian, do you really mean 'general Sordet (with non-silent 't') followed closely the French military procedures for cavalry and, as a result of that, most of his horses died of dehydration in just one day'? :)
Just picked up the shirt, I really like the design and message. Honestly it would also make an excellent poster design if you are ever looking for more merch to sell Ian...
Remember "Combat!" ? The 1960's WWII TV series with Vic Morrow? It was vignette series that used the same characters in each episode but each episode was completely stand alone and they didn't have any continuity so they could tell many stories. There was on where Saunders (Morrow in the lead) was grievously burned in a way that would have totally sent him home for good, probably with no arms. Next episode, not even a bandage. ANYWAY: One vignette was a French boy, orphan, who wanted to fight the Germans because they killed his parents. He had a real for sure Berthier. It was a long rifle and it was NOT a Mle 1916 because it didn't have the magazine extension. So it was either an early 3 round model or one of the 7.5 converts.
I regret selling my Berthier... was a 3 round carbine but was labeled as an MLE M16 which to my knowledge should have been a 5 round carbine... so much fun to shoot and such an interesting piece!
F***.... Now I really regret selling it lol It matched up pretty well with my 1879 Reichsrevolver even though they were different nations... Really spurred my interest in the whole great war. Keep up the excellent work Ian!
Damn !!! The serial number of your berthier is the same of the berthier of the game : hunt showdown ! Did you know that ? They probably would have a réal number série and they took yours !!!
Obviously, accuracy at 2000 meters would be basically 0%, but from a ballistic standpoint how functional would the bullet be that far away? If you actually hit someone with it would it still be as deadly as at more normal ranges?
Ian is it just me or did the French not have a carbine to cover everything conceivable soldier, only the Dutch and their mannlichers, come close logistical fun!
OK so my carbine is either a Frankenstein or its not mentioned here because it's got a bayonet lug the front sling ring no clearing rod and the sling bar in the stock
Interesting. Always illuminating to hear the contemporary driving forces behind a design (we must keep up with Les Boches!). Looks like a handy carbine with a cute little 3 round clip. I wonder if they had yet done any testing to establish effective barrel lengths with smokeless powder (usually 20" or so), or if the barrel and overall lengths were arbitrarily determined. The metal finish on that one is beautiful- i'm betting it was arsenal refinished at some point, since the stock is pretty beat. Great video as always. Thank you
Hey Ian, Do you know how many of each service rifles were actually made? It seems that I cant find the No. of production models for lots of them on internet. Im sure military doctorins knew an approximate number of their guns which were made.
Are there stripper clip guides cut into the top of the receiver behind the mag well? They don't seem to be functional as that, they aren't cut all the way through or in the right place, so what are they?
I think I may have spoken too soon. They're what keeps the bolt from travelling too far rearward on the Berthier. Looking at it, they're going to engage the bolt head's lugs.
Hi Ian. Great video as usual! You said that they didn't really bother to make carbine versions of the Lebel 1886. Can you tell me what this rifle is, then? I almost bought one a couple of years ago. media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/13268/13828507_1.jpg?v=8CF5F3680B8D9C0
I said the Lebel was not conducive to being made into a carbine. By 1935, the Lebel was thoroughly obsolete, and it was at that point shortened to the R35 model you linked to. That has a 3-round magazine (same as the early Berthier), while being slower to load, heavier, and slower to cycle.
Yes you're right. Short Lebel R35 was a Personal Defense Weapon. A 3 rounds Lebel is better for a truck driver than a full lenght one or a Gras rifle. The R35 was never intended to be a frontline weapon.
So does anyone know what, exactly, the thinking was on the 3 round magazine? Was it just assumed that cavalry wouldn't need large magazines as they would only be considered skirmishers and recon? Did they keep it as 3 round for the later infantry models just out of expedience/cost?
Matthew Palmer part of the problem was 8mm lebel was very tapered, because it was converted from 11m gras. this meant a magazine needed to be very large to accommodate it. presumably, they were worried about it breaking whilst bouncing around on a cavalry solider's back.
I mean, those are all possibilities, but what I'd like is to see actual documentation. Even if it started out as 4 rounds, why 4? Basically every nation standardized on a MINIMUM of 5, and the French, while they were coming from 1 on the Gras carbines, they were also still using an 8 shot Lebel for the infantry, so it's not like they didn't understand larger magazine capacities and their positives. And it's not like they didn't eventually change it to 5 round anyways, so the possibility to do it was always there.... I just wish there was some documentation out there on that decision making process.
Maybe I missed it, or just haven't watch enough FW videos yet, but did Ian mention what this gun was chambered in? It looks like around a 30cal, but I am sure it would be in mm for a French gun.
Forgotten Weapons thanks Ian, but I should've clarified by saying readily available as well. the brick and mortar stores and online websites I've checked are all out of stock
Ah, the early 20th Century, a simpler time when saying "I'm a railway engineer, so I'm uniquely qualified to design this rifle" wouldn't be second-guessed one bit.
Fun Fact: There is a model of the Berthier carbine that uses the 20-round magazine of the Chauchat machine gun, intended for airplane pilots
I am from the future, Ian now owns that
"Well, we can't do a carbine version of the Lebel because that would reduce the tubular magazine capacity unacceptably."
"No worries, I've come up with a new concept that uses a Mannlicher-style magazine."
"Great, how many rounds does it hold?"
"Four. Well... probably three."
"... Ship it!"
Ah, military procurement.
ZGryphon funny thing is that the r35 carbine (which is indeed a cut down Lebel rifle) has the exact same capacity and overall length of a Berthier carbine.
Ian celebrating Bastille Day in the only way he knows how.
Yeah, I like Rush too. =)
For shame, I call myself a francophile and I almost forgot about Bastille Day!
starfleethastanks it's the fête de la fédération goddamit
lt's okay most french people even don't know that
INSPECTEUR JOHNSON actually it was Bastille day for leftists, and fête de la fédération for conservatives. Nowadays we smartly avoid political confrontation and call it 'fête nationale', makes everyone happy :p
Camp Master Noob I thought it was a common misconception rather than a political disagreement, as they taught me in school
What you say actually makes more sense
I like to imagine how mind blowing and cool rifles with magazines would have been to those who first used them.
THREE WHOLE ROUNDS!! Awesome firepower! LOL
25 years before Confederates and Yankes struggled with mouth loaded guns ! So yes, 3 rounds is a heavy firepower.
F Tonic
Not heavy enough for combat from the late XIXth century onwards, though.
right, Briseur De Lance, technology made many steps forward at the turn of the century. But at that time (circa 1890) it was great.
@@fun3000able I mean, the north did see extensive use of lever action tube magazine weapons during the civil war. Granted those were for specialized units but still, wouldn’t have been a new novel concept to the PA sharp shooters or American cavalry
I love the look and feel of and old rifles like this, it's probably because I'm a history nerd, but I love old rifles
I am very interested by the French rifles from WWI. I would love to collect Lebels and Berthiers. Definitely gonna need that shirt too. It's about time people acknowledged France's sacrifice during the Great War.
Ian. You really should narrate audiobooks. Any book set in just about any war scenario would be awesome. You got a captivating and calming voice for narrating. Your wast knowledge would certainly shine through while narrating. Having you narrate something like "All Quiet on the Western Front" with small bits of info addded in, would be AMAZING :-)
I can't be alone in wanting this :-)
Tis a good day when a new video from these guy's comes out, Thank you
John Phillips So every day!
I love French guns, can't have enough videos on those!
I hope you can enlighten me, Ian, because I am a bit nonplussed.
I have seen on several of your videos that the cavalry of that time demanded carbines specifically designed for them and not just could use the regular examples for artillery and others. To me (and please correct me if I am wrong) it often comes down to the sling attachment positions having to be on the side instead of underneath. Many armies struggled to make a single carbine to fulfill both cavalry and auxillary roles.
Yet, to me, that seems to be a very time specific problem. Only a few decades are basically prone to having this issue. And it struck me that earlier the cavalry didn't carry their carbines on the back while riding. They had carbine holsters on the saddle (which, apparently several still used or reintroduced coming WW1) and so the problem only arised with abandoning the holsters.
When and why were such holsters abandoned? Because it seems it created a lot of problems - both for designers and production but also cost much in time and money.
Some countries used carbine holsters and some didn't - they would retain dirt and water, and not provide the soldier a way to carry the gun if dismounted. They were also quite convenient when you were mounted...so there are arguments both ways. The French would be no different in this regard, with three different carbine configurations (cavalry, cuirassier, and gendarmerie/artillery).
Thank you. I just wondered because the British never bothered about side mounted slings for mounted troops on their SMLEs.
I very thoughtful question, thank you for asking, and thank you Ian for your answer.
However it does not answer the question why carbines with side mounted slings were not issued then to all kind of personnel in need of smaller arms, if the place of the sling was the sole reason to give the cavalry their own version?
Ringo Wunderlich. An other reason was that the cavalry doesn't need a bayonet countrary to artillerymens/engineers/machine gun servants....
I have a later Berthier carbine that was sent back from Italy by my grandfathers cousin. Unfortunately going through customs, they drilled three holes into the chamber so it couldn't be shot. That didn't stop my grandfather when he was a teenager. He took the rifle to a junk yard, tied it to a tire and tied a string to the trigger and shot it. The bullet became lodged in the barrel and two holes were punched through the cartridge case. I still have the casing and the bullet which fell out of the barrel some 60ish years later. I've always wanted to fire it, but have never looked into getting the barrel fixed, even if it is possible.
With a wall full of Berthiers, Ian can finally do some homework, haha, homework
...never mind
It's Ian's version of telecommuting. :-)
Thank you hunt showdown lol
You should make more merch that looks like that. Its rad. Love the show.
They made the gun from Hunt Showdown into a real thing
This guy is such a historian it's like a free college class
My great grandfather was a cavalryman in the 17th Régiment de dragons. I assume he used one of those carbines. He was lucky to survive the war. His two younger brothers in the infantry did not have the same chance. One, Paul, got killed a couple of weeks before victory day after 4 years of a gruesome war. The other, Charles got gassed by the Germans and died in the 30s of lung injuries. Both were awarded the Croix de Guerre during their service. My family still has photographs of them and you can see the PTSD look in the eyes of Paul as the war never seemed to end. May they all rest in peace, when I feel low I think of their sacrifice and this gives me strength.
Thank you Ian for your great work. Guns and canons are no toys they killed 10 millions during the Great War including 1,400,000 from my country only.
Greetings from France 🇫🇷🇺🇸.
Great video. Love these old firearms.
I think Ian has a month's worth of content just in his own French collection. I'm stoked
Tangero more like a year.
I'd love some videos on those tubular magazine military rifles. Keep up the good work!
So good watching again
Happy Bastille day France!
Merci mister
Man. Why oh why didn't I buy one of these when they were cheap?
Man that sucks
That looks like a cool shirt, Ian. Can we see the whole thing?
Yes, at the end of the video.
Again I comment before finishing the video, thanks
Forgotten Weapons Can we expect to see some Forgotten Weapons marked universal disassembly tools in the store too?
TheGoldenCaulk premature exclamation is nothing to be ashamed of.
Thanks for the metric number.
France has a fine military heritage. They won more battles than they ever lost. They were the predominant land power in Europe for centuries (Britain traditionally had a small standing army and concentrated on Naval power). France could have held out for way longer in WW2 if it wasn't for chronic infighting at the political level and the upper ranks of her military. Bad leadership is what screwed France during WW2. Very capable officers on the field being crippled by stupid orders, indecision and contradictory orders coming from the top. There was no lack of martial spirit. Yes France wasn't as evolved as Germany when it came to armor tactics but they did possess very good armor and could have mounted a far more effective defense if their officers on the field were given the flexibility to react to events as they happened and use their own initiative.
Ben Dover
Between the wars you would get tax concessions in France for having a big family. France was short of people after the Great War
Germany was too, although not to the same extent as France. The French were a match for the German invasion force. They were better equipped too in many ways. Although their armor wasn't on par with the Germans when it came to attack, it was more than adequate for a defensive role. It was just too spread out to have any effect. Had there not been the absolute and total chaos that infected the upper levels of French leadership I have no doubt that France could have executed a very successful defense.
In addition to not being allowed such flexibility, the French tank commanders were also greatly hindered by not being given radios to coordinate with each other in the field. The equipment was available, but in yet another failure of upper-level leadership it was not provided to those who needed it most.
As much as it pains me to admit, rear guard action by French troops after France was already effectively lost is a good portion of what allowed the British Expeditionary Force to retreat and evacuate at Dunkirk. An event which in typical British fashion we have turned from the military disaster it was into a celebrated victory. We were kicked out of Europe on our arses, left without equipment or even rifles in some cases and had to rely on civilian transport.
So when they put their mind to it the French can fight, honestly though they don't appear interested, Napoleon and WWI seemed to get that out of their system.
FordPrefect23 No, the only thing that saved you at Dunkirk was favoritism and incompetence.
Why weren't enbloc more popular? I think it's faster to load than a stripper clip.
Dangerous Amoeba the early en bloc designs required a hole in the magazine (for the empty clip to fall through), which allowed mud to get into the action. They also were not double stack designs present until the Garand, requiring an extension to the magazine that could be dented. Any gun that used an en bloc could not be topped up or allow for singular loading. The en bloc clip is also the feed lip and cartridge retention system, meaning that damage to the clip would result in damage to the gun (unlike the Mauser stripper clip). The en bloc was also more expensive to produce compared to the stripper clip. Lastly, the speed of loading also depends on training and design, as the 1917 Enfield rifle were quite fast to load using stripper clips, while Mosin Nagant clips have been notoriously finicky.
Having worked with TF La Fayette I can attest that those jokes about the French army are absolutely untrue.
Peter Anderson seems like every vet i've seen that actually worked with the frogs have a good opinion on them. French cowardice seems like a myth.
Agreed. You should check the blog of Chris Hernandez, a US veteran of the Irak and Afghanistan wars.
He recalls his personal experience working with the French Army and has nothing but praise for them.
chrishernandezauthor.com/2013/07/09/working-with-the-french-army/
chrishernandezauthor.com/2013/07/22/photos-of-french-and-american-troops-in-afghanistan/
chrishernandezauthor.com/2012/10/08/even-god-hates-us/
chrishernandezauthor.com/2012/09/24/the-media-an-afghanistan-war-story/
Nice video, especialy when it's about your contry
Have you ever saw a Berthier carbine 1892 with what appears to be a name and 6 33 stamped in the stock behind the trigger guard? I have watched several videos on the Berthier and nobody says anything about it.
"We can't have a Lebel, the short cavalry barrel will mean the capacity will be too small... but let's stick with a 3-round clip anyway"
not so much cavalry on the Western Front, but before during & after, in North Africa, Middle East, & parts of French West Africa
France has built some incredible small arms, that, to this day, are sadly overlooked. Of course, the good side of that is I was able to pick up an MAS 36, in very good condition, a few years ago for $150.
Anon Nymous u lucky bugger!
The wallpaper looks a little lumpy
Frenchman can be great soldiers unfortunately their own government tends to be their worst enemy, they promote by politics and they wait to long to remove a obvious idiot from command, it cost them men and looses battles! so don't blame the ranks of brave men,just there incompetent leadership!
I forget which British historian it was who described the French cavalry carbine as (paraphrasing loosely) "a pop-gun no better than a child's toy" - was it Edward Spears writing contemporaneously or John Terraine writing long after the fact? Whoever it was, they compared it unfavourably to the SMLE. Fair enough, I guess - the SMLE holds just over three times (later twice) as many rounds in the (stripper clip fed, toppable-up) magazine, and is the abuse-proof battle rifle _par excellence_ but what they should have remembered is that when this Berthier came out, the nearest thing the Brits had was the Lee-Metford Cavalry Carbine (with six rounds), probably still being switched to from the Martini (with one), and the British Cavalry were still addicted to the sabre and lance. Their transformation into a mobile mounted recon and screening force who were willing to get off their horses and shoot it out from cover against enemy Infantry came much later (and not without a fair deal of angst).
John terraine in mons ,retreat tp voctory
I see Ian is a car-bean guy rather than a carb-eye-n guy.
By 'cavalry became obsolete,' Ian, do you really mean 'general Sordet (with non-silent 't') followed closely the French military procedures for cavalry and, as a result of that, most of his horses died of dehydration in just one day'? :)
French rifles? Oh no, has Ian started to cover his own collection, which means there are not a lot of new stuff to cover? :(
We got you.
Ayuka Boldyrev No, it's Bastille Day
I've been promising to do these for about a year now...
When he said he wants to review the cuirassier berthier, i know he will review his french rifle collection (finally)
Are we getting videos from the pattern room?
Just picked up the shirt, I really like the design and message. Honestly it would also make an excellent poster design if you are ever looking for more merch to sell Ian...
Damn, I finally know how to pronounce "Saint Étienne". All that time spent staring at the girls in French class might not have been a total waste.
Berthier carbines were retained in some French law enforcement units (e.g. the "Compagnies Republicaines de Securite" or "CRS") as late as the 1980s.
From my understanding by that time they were just used as clubs as if they needed rifles they had Mle-1936s.
M16 carbines were also converted to .22LR with a magazine tucked into the clip recess.
i am in France right now. ye.
Remember "Combat!" ? The 1960's WWII TV series with Vic Morrow? It was vignette series that used the same characters in each episode but each episode was completely stand alone and they didn't have any continuity so they could tell many stories. There was on where Saunders (Morrow in the lead) was grievously burned in a way that would have totally sent him home for good, probably with no arms. Next episode, not even a bandage. ANYWAY: One vignette was a French boy, orphan, who wanted to fight the Germans because they killed his parents. He had a real for sure Berthier. It was a long rifle and it was NOT a Mle 1916 because it didn't have the magazine extension. So it was either an early 3 round model or one of the 7.5 converts.
I regret selling my Berthier... was a 3 round carbine but was labeled as an MLE M16 which to my knowledge should have been a 5 round carbine... so much fun to shoot and such an interesting piece!
There was a transitional period in which M16 marked receivers were being built as 3-round guns, because the 5-round magazines were not yet available.
F***.... Now I really regret selling it lol It matched up pretty well with my 1879 Reichsrevolver even though they were different nations... Really spurred my interest in the whole great war. Keep up the excellent work Ian!
"Frontières" would maybe constitute a more adequate spelling? Though the shirt is made with an American caption sooo... I suppose it's irrelevant :)
Damn !!! The serial number of your berthier is the same of the berthier of the game : hunt showdown ! Did you know that ? They probably would have a réal number série and they took yours !!!
Obviously, accuracy at 2000 meters would be basically 0%, but from a ballistic standpoint how functional would the bullet be that far away? If you actually hit someone with it would it still be as deadly as at more normal ranges?
I have one that was brought back by my GGrandfather in WW1. Not blued but painted!
Turn on the Auto-generated subtitles. It catches his words (almost) perfectly
Hey, advertizing banners are back!
Ian is it just me or did the French not have a carbine to cover everything conceivable soldier, only the Dutch and their mannlichers, come close logistical fun!
12:30 Not only in U.S in Poland to but hey, after 1939 can you blame us ?
Hi there from Singapore! Wishing you'd have a amazing day =)
i have one of these but i have cover on the botom of magazim(sping supported)
OK so my carbine is either a Frankenstein or its not mentioned here because it's got a bayonet lug the front sling ring no clearing rod and the sling bar in the stock
Yes yes, the rifle is very cool. BUT THAT SHIRT.
Can you do a video on the Gras carbine?
I just got ahold of the same exact rifle. what is the value
I have one that was converted to an 1892 M16 post WWI.
Did the French ever consider adopting a Winchester lever action carbine for their calvery?
No, not that I am aware of.
Is there a full disassembly of the lebel in your channel?
Interesting. Always illuminating to hear the contemporary driving forces behind a design (we must keep up with Les Boches!). Looks like a handy carbine with a cute little 3 round clip. I wonder if they had yet done any testing to establish effective barrel lengths with smokeless powder (usually 20" or so), or if the barrel and overall lengths were arbitrarily determined. The metal finish on that one is beautiful- i'm betting it was arsenal refinished at some point, since the stock is pretty beat. Great video as always. Thank you
Forgotten Weapons thanks for your positive and smart mind toward the French . From France .
Hey Ian, Do you know how many of each service rifles were actually made? It seems that I cant find the No. of production models for lots of them on internet. Im sure military doctorins knew an approximate number of their guns which were made.
I'm sure that after a few more videos on French rifles, Ian will gain honorary French citizenship, maybe a Meilleurs Ouvrier de France to go with it.
I usually concentrate on rotary or revolving rifles, but Ian has piqued my interest in French arms and manufacturing.
Thanx Ian
It doesn't seem to be N marked. It's still in WW1 configuration. Don't fire surplus ammo.
Pretty much all surplus 8mm Lebel is crap anyway. Duds and hangfires.
Well....at least it loads faster than a Lebel.
Are there stripper clip guides cut into the top of the receiver behind the mag well? They don't seem to be functional as that, they aren't cut all the way through or in the right place, so what are they?
I think I may have spoken too soon. They're what keeps the bolt from travelling too far rearward on the Berthier. Looking at it, they're going to engage the bolt head's lugs.
The Berthier 07-15 M34 in 7.5mm use a stripper clip
A handy little carbine to be sure.
I picked one of these up in Palatka Fl for only 60$ back in 95.
Hey, I have one of those!
Can you just find a Solothurn and review it even if it's not being sold at RIA?
All these French rifles are giving me Bergman flashbacks. And I love it.
I'm wearing the same shirt
Hi Ian. Great video as usual! You said that they didn't really bother to make carbine versions of the Lebel 1886. Can you tell me what this rifle is, then? I almost bought one a couple of years ago. media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/13268/13828507_1.jpg?v=8CF5F3680B8D9C0
I said the Lebel was not conducive to being made into a carbine. By 1935, the Lebel was thoroughly obsolete, and it was at that point shortened to the R35 model you linked to. That has a 3-round magazine (same as the early Berthier), while being slower to load, heavier, and slower to cycle.
Yes you're right. Short Lebel R35 was a Personal Defense Weapon. A 3 rounds Lebel is better for a truck driver than a full lenght one or a Gras rifle. The R35 was never intended to be a frontline weapon.
Forgotten Weapons awesome thanks for the info!
That's it I need a Berthier
Last time I was this early Volgograd was still called Stalingrad
still cant wait to see the slow mo footage of the RSC 1917 once Ian get enough clips for them :)
Nice. I have the later 5-round carbine and would like to find one of these someday.
Is this your own gun Ian ?
rifles of the Legion
Every damn day! Ian has a new video worth watching...every...damn...day!
This rifle seems to have a cursive "M" with something over it on the stock. See it at 6:00 into the video.
I've long had a soft spot for the Berthier rifles and carbines. Thanks for the video!
Ian, the biggest francophone on youtube I know.
esp in the gun business.
But he does a pretty good job pronouncing french words.
Where is Spef?
Good job
That has gotta be one of the cutest little clips for a rifle I've ever seen haha
So does anyone know what, exactly, the thinking was on the 3 round magazine? Was it just assumed that cavalry wouldn't need large magazines as they would only be considered skirmishers and recon? Did they keep it as 3 round for the later infantry models just out of expedience/cost?
Matthew Palmer part of the problem was 8mm lebel was very tapered, because it was converted from 11m gras. this meant a magazine needed to be very large to accommodate it. presumably, they were worried about it breaking whilst bouncing around on a cavalry solider's back.
I mean, those are all possibilities, but what I'd like is to see actual documentation. Even if it started out as 4 rounds, why 4? Basically every nation standardized on a MINIMUM of 5, and the French, while they were coming from 1 on the Gras carbines, they were also still using an 8 shot Lebel for the infantry, so it's not like they didn't understand larger magazine capacities and their positives. And it's not like they didn't eventually change it to 5 round anyways, so the possibility to do it was always there.... I just wish there was some documentation out there on that decision making process.
French doctrine was mounted action lrimarily
Maybe I missed it, or just haven't watch enough FW videos yet, but did Ian mention what this gun was chambered in? It looks like around a 30cal, but I am sure it would be in mm for a French gun.
8mm Lebel (8x50R)
Love my Berthier, I want to find out so much more about them.
Great video. thanks. Having said that, I do not like this carbine.
I just wish the ammo wasnt impossible to find so I can actually shoot it rather than keeping it as a wall hanger
www.sgammo.com/product/prvi-partizan/20-round-box-8x50r-lebel-200-grain-fmj-ammo-prvi-partizan-pp82
Forgotten Weapons thanks Ian, but I should've clarified by saying readily available as well. the brick and mortar stores and online websites I've checked are all out of stock
It was in stock yesterday - sorry!
Forgotten Weapons guess you bought it all 😉
Ah, the early 20th Century, a simpler time when saying "I'm a railway engineer, so I'm uniquely qualified to design this rifle" wouldn't be second-guessed one bit.
If it works....
Ferdinand Mannlicher was a railway engineer for eighteen years before turning his skills to weapons.
Thanks Ian.
Cool T-shirt!
And carbine, of course.
It's fun to pick on the French, but in truth, they're probably our best ally.
he's trying so hard to be French, but his last name is Mccollum
France and Scotland have been friends and allied for a very long time. :)
If you want to talk about Continentals with British-Isles names, google "Alberic O'Kelly de Galway" and see where that leads you. :)
One of Napoleons Field Martials was called Jacques MacDonald who's father was Scottish.
joseph Hooton Ol Jacques MacDonald had a uh uh hmm, honhonhonhonhon.
Scottish were also subject of the king of France ;-)