2 Worst Factions DO BATTLE | Kislev vs Nurgle - Total War Warhammer 3
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ม.ค. 2023
- For Events, Tournaments & Discord Links: totaltavern.com/
TWW3 here to support the channel: www.nexus.gg/turin
Twitter: / turinrts
Support the stream: streamlabs.com/turin
/ turin
Channel Sponsors: / @turinrts
#Warhammer #totalwar #Turin - เกม
![[Full Episode] MasterChef Junior Thailand มาสเตอร์เชฟ จูเนียร์ ประเทศไทย Season 3 Episode 5](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/g5wpgeAIzMs/mqdefault.jpg)
These haggard matchups are way more entertaining to watch than the typical sweaty meta hellseekers/marauder horsemen builds
I was so hyped for multiplayer in Wargame after beating the campaign and then immediately lost interest when 9/10 players were using the same meta army of chaff spam
I feel as if Rot Flies need Anti-large. That would round out the Nurgle Roster giving them a solid anti-large and Armor piercing unit, something that they currently like. Even the cavalry variant with the deaths heads grenades. Im not sure how to buff the toads though...
Prety sure Rot Flies are suppose ro be anti large, bit CA did such a bad job that they ended being anti nothing.
Both just need more WS plain and simple. They have a tiny number of entities so they need to hit much harder per entity when compared to similar units with more entities.. Anti-large on the flies won't really help since they don't have an accuracy problem currently, they just need to hit much much harder. Compare WS to Longma or Doom knights to see the standard WS balancing for 24 entity units. For an example of solid performance at 10 entities I'd look to Ripperdactyls who have much higher WS baseline (as well as frenzy, higher CB, and a bonus versus infantry while having similar health to the Plague Drones).
Toads are in a similar boat with the ideal comparisons being Ice Wolves and Razorgor herd. Sabretusk packs have the same entity count and a WS of 70 for a lower price as an example of the principle in action. We can also see how having an anti-infantry bonus utterly fails to overcome the low damage issues since accuracy isn't the problem.
I once had a unit of rot flies knock an entire unit of bleak swords off the side of a wall. It was really impressive and made me think that rot flies are better then they actually are.
@@edwardfontaine7108 yeah the fact that they only perform okay while abusing a bug is telling.
@@spellbound1875 a giant big using a bug to become good.... Just saying...
That elemental bear was truly the lord of the pits
On the jank charges for chaos knights, the new models are actually so big the entities interfere with each other and make much worse contact on the charge. It's a pretty nasty bug which makes the unit massively underperform for it's price and stats. They're a lot worse than they were pre 2.0 despite looking cooler. Fixes would require removing entities and adjusting stats to compensate. Basically treat them like cold one cav or monstrous cavalry who have similarly sized models.
or maybe just a looser formation?
@@voodoodummie For this to work you'd have draw the Chaos Knight formation out wider than most infantry formations and all other cavalry formations in the game. That could cause a whole host of other issues with cavalry getting stuck or missing attacks as the knights have to wrap around the side of infantry formations. Could because I haven't tested it, just problems I see as likely risks.
You couldn't make the formation deeper since the current issue seems to result from the second and third lines not being able to push forward to begin attacking so a deeper formation would do nothing or exacerbate the problem.
Based on how CA's handled other similarly sized entities reduced entity count seems to be the easiest way to address the issue. I also explored the idea in a mod and found the result was notably improved charge performance and a reduction in the odd clumping you can see around chaos knight charges. Not the only potential solution but one I'm confident would work.
so do cold one knights and other monstrous cav have the same issue?
@@Sol-gl3nl Not on live currently but they were designed around having 48 or 32 entities rather than 60 (on ultra at least). If someone were inclined they could mod in extra entities and see if the units started to clump up on the charge. I suspect Stag Knights in particular would have a lot of problems given their size currently.
My goal was to find a solution to the problem so I didn't do much investigating of whether or not other units would break in similar circumstances.
The result of this Kislev vs Nurgle match:
Slaanesh wins with a Hellstrider build
What's funny is Mark of Nurgle makes Nurgle pay for +MD and +HP with -MA and -Speed but Slaanesh gets all of its bonuses for free
@@nickaretta1329 Mark of Khorne in fucking shambles.
@@nickaretta1329 Here is what you do with Mark of Slaanesh:
Get rid of the 10% physical Resistance
Make it so only Daemon cavalry get Devastating Flanker again
Give a minus 10 to armor
And give a reduction to HP
Only if anyone could find Slaaneshi attractive. Which no one would. 😝
@@nickaretta1329 While I agree mark of slaanesh is OP don't forget the poison Mark of Nurgle gives
"Bear'ly holding on to this objective."
“TWO WORST FACTIONS FIGHT!!”
*cocks Kislevisn Koslavites and readies Ursun’s fury*
honstly I think the biggest problem with Nurgle is that some of their units have bad attack animations I Think that make them miss a lot. Rot Flies and Plague Toads can't hit anything.
Their low MA and Charge bonus is responsible for that. Against most infantry, they have around 50% chance to hit on the charge. It is worse in sustained combat. They have to charge the enemy from the rear to get decent damage off.
They are a disruptive unit and an anti-flying unit. Not a killer unit.
The ROR Bear is probably the most fun unit in Warhammer 3 roster :) It has an Aoe Spell, 3 Breath spells, and it's a raid boss :) It's fun to play with him :) Plus it looks epic! I am eager to see some more units for Kislev. And even more eager to see something more interesting from Cathay. The chineese mythology has so many cool creatures, I would like to see them brough in game!
Been playing a nurgle campaign and even there rot flies seem so bad. My plague drones can barely even defeat a single unit of fell bats in combat. They definitely need some significant buffs
Makes sense. Plague Drones and Fell bats have similar roles(hard to remove disruptors). They both have poor MA and Charge Bonus.
great game! it's nice that CA's default formation width for infantry sets them up so cinematically for frontal breath attacks :)
Looks like the Leopard at 5:47 gets deleted by the Blight Boil, but it might just be the summon timing out.
it was a summon
"bearly holding onto this objective"
Always love nurgle games.
The breath attack at 14:40 was sooo satisfying!! Congratulations for the victory and to both players for a great match! 🙌🏻
You said that lore of Nurgle is top 5 lores of magic. Can you make a teir-list with all lores?? I haven't seen one of those!
I want a trait for toads that makes them do more damage on an a charge. Kind of like the korn ror murderous charge but weaker. Call it "Empty belly" or "Hungry" or something like that. Cause imagine a wave of man eating toads first jumping into a line of infantry. They would gobble up tons of them before being sated. Would make toads better without changing how they work all that much.
The kislev matches are always fun to watch
For blanket changes, I'd give Nurgle more missile resistance and immune to poison. Slaanesh gets reduced armor. Or (Nurgle willing) just wait until Tamurkhan drops.
Yeah i agree, i really love Nurgle, as a faction and lorewise but seeing them having no base MR is baffling. Especially when the game launched and they didnt have any armor/shields. It was so sad to see elite ExPlaguebearers getting to half heaalth in like 2 volleys by Kossars. Thankfully there is a mod for that but still.
@@chaotix7275 When mods have to fix games, there's a problem.
5:48 BEARly holding on. huehue
I kind of disagree with the idea that the problem with Kislev is a limited roster that makes them predictable. Because when you look at their roster, it's actually extremely diverse. They have practically everything: SEMs, skirmish cav, shock cav, monstrous cav, guns, wagons, archers aplenty etc. The main problem imo is just that the roster itself, like a lot of its units, does a bit of everything without being actually good at anything.
A fantastic example is Streltsi. Streltsi cost 250 gold more than Handgunners, but are tankier and decent melee stats, which allow them to perform decently but not exceptionally in melee. So you could get 3 Strelsi with Kislev, so you have a tanky gunline that can put up a decent fight in melee... or you could play the Empire, get 3 Handgunners and 2 State Troops units to protect them for the same price; I know which one *I'm* choosing. It would be one thing if Kislev's hybrid units were actually good at both things, like Lothern Sea Guard, but they very much aren't.
Their single role units meanwhile are generally good on their own, but the problem is that they don't have any particular synergy with the rest of the roster. Winged Lancers for example are basically speedier, slightly less tanky Empire Knights, but due to the general low model count of Kislev infantry (along with either being costly or squishy), they tend to really lack the support their Imperial cousins receive on the battlefield, especially in hammer and anvil situations. Same thing with skirmish: Kislev actually has a really solid skrimish core (as they should lore-wise), but lack the means to exploit it. They don't have any artillery or missile lines to defend like the Empire, or large masses of infantry that can overwhelm weakened enemies like Greenskins or Lizardmen, or a generally speedy/hard hitting roster that can quickly exploit any vulnerabilities created like the Dark Elves.
So the problem really comes down to the hybrid units forming the core of the Kislev roster despite not being very good.
The other day I was looking at the Nurgle roster, thinking about how to help them. The big issue is that Nurgle has the worst Daemons. Mortals are actually pretty good, I feel the Mark of Nurgle is very underrated. My general idea is that Daemons should debuff the enemies and be more killy than the mortals, to fit the flavour.
- Nurglings should be this unholy carpet of evil, but they die so easily Marauders are always better. So give the Nurglings a lot more models, like +20.
- Beast of Nurgle could be an anti-large threat in a new way. Make it give whatever it fight a Spirit Leech - type effect that drains single entity health. So the actual combat power of the Beast is still mediocre, but once it sticks to a large unit, that health drain does work.
- Pox Riders on Rot Flies should have substantial ammunition with Anti-Large AP damage. So when they sit on like an Elemental Bear and drop bombs, they can actually kill things. Maybe even up the model count.
- Nurgle Knights are tanky, so Pox Riders on Plague Toads should be killy. Up the AP damage and anti-infantry potential, maybe give them armour sundering.
- Great Unclean Ones should have something that enables them to hold onto other monsters. Maybe give them a net, or maybe even a taunt that forces one enemy unit to attack the Unclean One. Nurgle does not really have very good snares and such.
- Plaguebearers could have Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma - type ability that drains health of enemy infantry in melee, slowly but surely. Or have a debuff aura instead.
- Cloud of Flies is literally the dumbest ability in the history of the trilogy. Getting more melee defence in melee is literally the same as just having more melee defence. My idea has always been that it should give missile resistance instead. The more units in contact with each other, the bigger this resistance gets. So if you want to blob, as Nurgle should, the cloud could give like a fat +50% missile resistance, but then you risk magical nukes instead.
They arguably have the best daemonic infantry but their mobility options are terrible which leads to them being easily outflanked, isolated, and picked apart while their infantry loses the grind without proper support.
As for your suggestions, I have a few counterpoints as well as some suggestions of my own:
- Nurglings are the first proper "swarm" unit with multiple models per entity and a high HP pool. They don't necessarily need more entities, just a higher HP pool.
- Beasts of Nurgle are not bad at all with their slime trail and regen and giving it a single target Mortis effect seems like a massive overbuff.
- Plague Drones should have a similar ranged attack to Zombie Bombers or Miners with Blasting Charges (why they didn't decide to go this route is beyond me). Not sure how I feel about giving them anti-large but they desperately need their attack animations improved because they are absolute trash
- I like the idea of a bound net or slow ability for the Great Unclean One to give them some utility
- Plaguebearers are actually quite good infantry. They don't need a drain effect and again, I think that would be way too OP. They're meant to be tanks that can deal some solid damage when they hit and they fill that role well.
- Everyone misunderstands how that MD is applied. It is constant and unaffected. That +9MD remains even when their stats are lowered by fatigue. That said, it is still underwhelming and I would also add missile resistance to it but not for blobbing. Just make it a constant effect outside of melee similar to how it was in tabletop.
- Also, I think CA should look into making Nurgle more fatigue resistant. Giving out perfect vigor is probably a step too far but they should tire much slower than other factions.
To clarify a few things. Nurgle does not have poor mobility. They have a bunch of fast fliers. Their infantry includes some decent speed units, ranging from 34 to 41(only Plague Bearers and Chaos Warriors are slower than 30). Their Toads(pseudo cavalry) are slow in terms of cavalry(59 speed), but still fast enough to get places.
So while they wont win a speed contest overall, it is not like they do not have speedy elements.
No. Nurgle's problem is more complex than that.
Their units have relatively low MA and Charge Bonus(part of that is Mark of Nurgle's fault). So even with their high health and MD and poison effect, most melee enemies will still trade pretty well, simply because Nurgle takes too long to kill them, and due to being expensive, they are usually outnumbered.
The units that you need to shut down enemy ranged or intercept enemy charges, are relatively expensive and ineffective at quickly killing such threats.
Basically, their big monsters and daemons are more just for distacting and debuffing/making the enemy blob up, which you then punish with spells. By themselves, they kill way too slow.
Regular Plague Toads and Marauders with Greatweapons is an awesome combination for the most part. The Toads can help absorb ranged fire(50 armor+20% physical resistance, spread out formation and erratic movement) and intercept enemy cavalry, while the Marauders bring the killing- and staying power. But they still need something to avoid catastrophic damage on approach, especially if artillery is involved.
Furies of Nurgle and Chaos Warhounds are great for dealing with enemy ranged units.
But everthing is more expensive as well. So you have overall less of it.
The Mark of Nurgle and overall Nurgle approach to combat does not compensate for the increased prices and slower killing potential.
I see no reason why mortal units should get a decrease in MA just because they have the Mark of Nurgle. Is their aim suddenly worse? They already get slower and get a price increase.
In some cases, the Mark is barely a benefit. Your daemonic units already have poison. Several of your spells apply poison. There are very few situations where having poison on your mortal units is a big boon.
On Shock-damage units(like heavy cav and chariots) the Mark is also mostly wasted. Being slower means less impact damage and smaller window of opportunity to react. Having 400 more total health and some extra Melee defense is mostly pointless when you dont want to stick around in melee anyway. And you have less MA, so even if you did stick around, you would not be killing things faster anyway.
And you pay 100 gold extra for all of that.
The reason why Poison Warhounds and Nurgle Throwing Axe Horsemen are so good for nurgle, is because they do not suffer nearly as much from the above effects and can actually benefit from the mark to a much larger degree.
Poison Warhounds are fairly cheap and effective at shutting down enemy archers. They dont have a mark, so they simply cost what they cost.
The Horsemen are still pretty fast(only goes from 90 to 85, so are the least effected by the speed debuff) and now have a poisoned ranged attack. They dont rely on their MA to deal damage, and the added health means that they can absorb enemy ranged fire better than before.
Nurgle needs Anti-Large. I am hereby proposing adding Nurgling Halberds to my list of desired units. Alongside Gnoblarcopters and Kossovite Steam Bears.
what a battle
I feel like nurgle chaos warriors/chosen(not marauders imo) with great weapons should have anti large. This would balance would make a triad of aniti-large(nurgle), anti-large and charge defence(tzeetch), and charge defence(slaanesh), with khorne just being its usual anti infantry
Nurgle units needs 10 or 20% missile resistance
Frost vs Plague!
Are they truly worse than ogres!? Has Taco done that much work for the thicc boys? :o
Ogres have been middle of the pack for a little bit now I believe
I will say the bull ogres units having their cap increase in one patch, dont remember if it was the last one or another, helped alot the faction for domination.
Ogres only became bad for a patch when their cap weight got massively lowered. Needing to spend 2000 gold to outcap 600 gold in some match ups made the faction unplayable unless you could consistently table your opponent. Ogres aren't perfect but they're a functional faction in a way Nurgle and Kislev struggle to be.
❄️Long live Kislev❄️
Is it just me or does the elemental bear look like a hedgehog
Nurgle's battle toads need to be the dedicated anti large.
But curse of the leper is my go to solution against large units. It sucks. But it works to kill that ONE unit of Grail Knights. Or that ONE spider the Greenskins brought.
You make a good point. CotL is great when many entities are hitting your unit in melee, or when a single entity is hitting multiple of your own.
Both Toads and Flies have few entities and a tendency to get surrounded, so that is one way of increasing their damage output indirectly.
Ok, off topic I know, but how's Nurgle's campaign play? Any fun?
its fun in PVP H2H for sure! Not sure about PVE!
So someone answer me this who knows :
Rot Flies have pretty good stats. But whenever i use them they do like negative damage. They feel sooo haggard and uselss. Why is that ?
Similar to Toads. Is it their animations ?
Low MA and bad animations mean they tend to knock units down without actually damaging them. Toads also have this sort of animation, but in the toad's case, their number of models per unit lets them knock down the majority of an infantry unit (and thus avoid damage) while their anti-infantry bonus and decent charge bonus help with the low MA. On the other hand, Rot Flies only have 10 models, no anti-infantry bonus, and low charge bonus, so they're not able to knock down enough models for it to matter *and* they don't hit.
Finally, Flies have a really low mass for their unit count (800 per model, with a chaff infantry model having 100), so they can't get out of melee because they can't push through anything. This means that once they're engaged in a fight, you have to let them there no matter what.
I appreciate that there are concerns around overbalancing in the face of future DLC but I mean…. Nurgle is just so tragic. They need to overhaul the mark drastically, maybe give bonus armour in addition to health and melee defence, and yes the monstrous demons are just terrible, rot flies don’t do enough damage and die to quickly, toads hit like wet tissue and they don’t even excel in sustained grindy combat due to the widespread availability of anti-blob spells. I mean look at Kugath vs Ghorst in campaign, Nurgle is just tragic at the moment, no tools to deal with its counters.
wait is kislev one of the worst? well they are my favorite faction so my taste of factions must be pretty bad, but i don't mind hope you all have a lovely day if you've read this!
Bro nurgle shits on me everytime as a khorne player idk how they're considered weak
GG
While I do feel as though these two factions are missing some key elements I will say that they can still perform quite well overall. There is always going to be a balancing issue... But I can decimate people with these two factions if I sweat hard enough
When he said the two worst factions in the game and there was only Kislev and nurgle It hit me hard lol
Kislev is fun to play in campaign at least...
@@dmitriyk.2890 lmao we need something
Wait are they really the worst?! Ive lost twice with nurgle in 2 months & i dont even play kislev anymore bc they are too much of a raid boss
For what reasons is Kislev so bad?
How the hell did kislev become a weak faction? 0_0
I'm not sure I'd call any of the armies the worst. Bretonnia would suck for me cause I hate Cav. It's all personal preference.
It really is remarkable just how terrible nurgle has been consistently since early on, except for that brief time after the dlc before the mortis was nerfed. it really is quite a remarkably bad roster.
Pretty sure Nurgle had that if you didn't abuse the fact that they have no anti large so the bear just did what it wanted with no contest.
didnt know Kislev was the worst factions? What did I miss?
Good units, good characters, good lords, but absolutely no build variety. Whenever you're facing Kislev, you can always expect the same sort of build, so they're extremely easy to counter. If you bring an answer for Winged Lancers, another for Armored Kossars, and a last one for Sleds, you're already starting with an advantage. Anything that's good against Winged Lancers will be good against Dervishes, anything that's good against Armored Kossars will also deal with Tzar Guards, and counters to Sled will be at the very least decent against characters and the Elemental Bear RoR.
Kislev isn't really weak, it's just that they need a DLC and some unit variety. Give them a unit of armor-piercing cavalry that's cheaper than Bear Riders, and a unit of anti-chaff infantry that's cheaper than GW Tzar Guards or basic Ice Guards, and they'll be much harder to predict.
I've been away from TWWH3 for a while. Is Nurgle really considered one of the worst factions in the game now?
Aye they are sadly
They are indeed, but the campaign was suprisingly fun due to the difficulty.
Best anti large unit is probably the exalted plagebarers. Their missles melt dragons and stuff.
Why can’t plague drones be goood😢
Nurgle is bad yes but Kislev is not that bad, no good player plays them that’s why they are so low
No good player plays them because they are bad. High level players aint gonna knee-cap themselves in competitive play lmao.
Kislev isn't as fundamentally broken as Nurgle but they have some pretty serious issues in unit design. Biggest one is hybrid units need to use both their melee and missiles effectively to be cost effective. Armored Kossars lack fire while moving so you either charge or shoot unless you're a micro god. Result is the unit usually underperforms in game despite having a genuinely solid statline as both a missile and melee unit.
Combined with units like Ice Guard just being terrible and unit caps counting armored kossars as missiles and kislev builds are super restrictive.
@@spellbound1875 yes that’s true
@@arn1345 no it’s just after the nerf off their best unit, the light war sleed, no one played them. Even with good units like Derwishes Cossars, Snow leopards and war sleds a solid more if magic, Patriachs and passives they sound good, but they are fucking terrible, they have no variety because as Spellbound said they have bugs and infantry counts as ranged and you have a cap of 12 ranged units. They need this to be fixed and some sort of cossars axe and shield for 450. to have a cheap melee unit. And a Lord with more than just solid magic
Man, these maps are terrible. Giant pimple forests lol.
Great game though. For the BEAR!!
Kislev sucks in single player too weird